How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S4, Ep6 How to Fail: Andy McNab

Episode Date: May 8, 2019

You could say that my guest this week became famous because of failure. Andy McNab led the Bravo Two Zero SAS mission during the first Gulf War but his team was compromised soon after they were dropped into Iraq in 1991. This was the most horrific kind of failure. It resulted in the deaths of three of the squad, a cat-and-mouse chase across the desert and McNab's eventual capture. He withstood six weeks of torture and imprisonment, later turning his harrowing experiences into the bestselling book, Bravo Two Zero. He was also awarded the Distinguished Conduct Medal for his courage behind enemy lines. In 2017, he was awarded a CBE.But this SAS hero did not have the most auspicious start in life: abandoned as a baby in a carrier bag on the steps of a London hospital, he was brought up by adoptive parents on a Peckham council estate and dropped out of school as a teenager, barely able to read or write. He fell into a life of petty crime. After an arrest for burglary at the age of 16 he decided to turn his life around, and joined the British Army.Andy joins me to talk about the failure of that Bravo Two Zero mission, about what the SAS taught him about how to fail, about how someone who struggled with literacy managed to make a career as a bestselling author, about why he's been married so many times (four, since you ask) and about how he's now found lasting happiness with his wife Jenny (partly to do with a laminated strip in his wallet...listen to find out more). Oh, and he tells me he's a certified psychopath, but not - apparently - one of the bad ones. So that's a podcast first. Andy McNab's books are available to buy hereHow To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted by Elizabeth Day, recorded by Chris Sharp and sponsored by 4th Estate BooksThe Sunday Times Top 5 bestselling book of the podcast, How To Fail: Everything I've Ever Learned From Things Going Wrong by Elizabeth Day, is out now and is available here.  Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayAndy McNab @the_real_mcnabChris Sharp @chrissharpaudio4th Estate Books @4thEstateBooks             Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by card, other conditions apply. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and

journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned from failure. It is lucky, given the nature of my guest this week, that you cannot see his face. Andy McNabb is a decorated soldier, a best-selling author, and a former SAS operator who is still a wanted man. His name is a pseudonym, he doesn't reveal where he lives, he obscures his face in photographs. In the past he has said that if he had to he could run away quite easily from his life requiring nothing more than a couple of t-shirts and his wits to survive. He was 19 when he first killed a man and 24 when he joined the SAS. In 1991, he commanded Bravo 2-0, an eight-man patrol that was given the task of destroying underground communication links between Baghdad and northwest Iraq. McNabb was captured and

tortured. Later, he wrote a book about his experiences that sold two million copies. tortured. Later, he wrote a book about his experiences that sold 2 million copies. Later still, he turned his hands to bestselling novels and film consultancy. In 2017, he was awarded a CBE. His return to civilian life has not always been straightforward. But when he was asked the scariest thing he now faces, McNabb replied, my wife, after I've forgotten to load the dishwasher. places. McNabb replied, my wife, after I've forgotten to load the dishwasher. Andy, thank you so much for agreeing to come on this podcast. Do you have a strategy for loading the dishwasher? No, that's the problem. Yeah, I never get enough in. That's the problem. So I just shove it in. But there is a system apparently where you can get, you know, whatever it is, six loads in, but it never happens. Or what I do is just load it up on a Monday

and wash it, open it up and just take a cup out, use the cup and then put it back. So stuff gets cleaned about seven times a week. Talking about the premise of this podcast, which is how to fail and what one learns from failure. Were you taught about failure as part of your military training? Yeah, we were taught failure is part of the process to get where you need to be.

So if you're given sort of a formal set of orders or something for an attack, say, the language is very positive and progressive. So by 1,400 hours, we will have da-da-da, you will have in that sort of parlance. But what happens is after you've said, this is what we're going to do, then you'll go the what-ifs. So you've got actions on. Well, what happens if that doesn't happen? What are we going to do?

So if any stage of this thing, the plan that is perfect fails, what it is, is, well, that's okay because that's going to happen. So what we're going to do is something different. So even from that point, there's always the fact that nothing is perfect. You know, and even in a military context,

you know, Napoleon said, he said, you know, all great plans are perfect until the enemy get involved. And then it's all wrong. So nothing is perfect. And I think it's that perception, which is given out in film, TV, that sort of stuff. When certainly on a military context, everything works to plan and it's great and it's super sort of efficient. No, it's not.

It's all over the place, quite frankly, because there's loads of moving parts, loads of people, and that's just on your side. And you've got exactly the same happening with the opposition. So it's going to be very fluid. There's going to be lots of failure. I'm really interested in the idea of kind of military logic as opposed to personal feeling. So you've said in the past, the jungle part of the SAS selection process was one of the toughest things you've ever encountered. And I can imagine if I were in that situation, I would find it very hard to turn off my brain, like how I was feeling about myself. How do you switch that off and not take it personally

when someone is shouting at you? Well, I think it's because there's a name. There's, if you like, the end game, whatever you want to call it. And the fact is, is trying to get through that phase. It's about a month in the jungle, trying to get through that phase of the selection process and pass. And the problem is that you're constantly tested in so many different levels, whether it's a military level or the fact that you're living in a very confined space,

very claustrophobic space, and there's no direction because you as that small group of four people on selection have got to make things happen between yourself and see if you can work as a group, all those sort of things. At the same time, you never know how good or bad you are from the selection team think. And you find that out at the end. So there's that constant best effort. Not too sure if it is the best effort or the best way of approaching the problem so the fact of worrying about whether it's all going wrong is pointless

what it should be about is just thinking about well all i can do is the best i can do in a way i think it's the best way and we'll see what happens at the end because it's all what matters is in the end that's what matters and then at the end when you're badged and you've got into the SAS, do you feel a flood of elation? Do you lather your feelings to come in then? Well, yeah, there's a little moment. It's a great time. It really is a great time. But even then, everything's downplayed.

Certainly Special Forces, everything is downplayed. So literally, big moment for us. There was eight of us who passed this selection. Big moment for us all. And we went to see the top sort of NCO there, the regiment sergeant major deal we gave you the you know what you're going to do you're going to go and see the commanding officer and because everything's sort of really low-key so there's no marching or saluting and there but we didn't really know what to do because you know we just got in we're not too sure what we're supposed to be doing nobody tells you so we sort of all shuffled into the room

and he literally just threw the berries like frisbees. And he said, it's harder to keep than to get, you know, see ya. And that was it. And off to the squadron and that was it. So even then it was sort of everything was downplayed. But at the personal level, the fact is, I'm in. As far as Arten's concerned, once I got to the squadron, I think I'll be the biggest idiot there. I don't care, but I'm in.

That was it. And Bravo 2-0 which I mentioned there in the introduction which is the thing that most people I think will know you for I mean I remember so many people reading that book just on the tube and um and it's still around today 20 years old I mean it was published in 1993 it's still the biggest selling war book of all time incredible it's amazing the irony being that the mission was a failure in certain respects. Can you tell us about that? Yeah, well, the mission was to try and cut the fibre optic cable running from Baghdad to the Scud teams that were in the western deserts firing into Israel. And obviously, the Iraqis want Israel coming to the war and that would break the

alliance which we had with the Arab states. So the idea was try and cut that fiber optic cable we didn't know where it was we weren't too sure how to destroy it when we did find it but the whole thing of having special forces is to go out with a little information and go and do something because otherwise it's pointless having what we call UKSF United Kingdom Special Forces so we got up there and we were compromised by a small boy moving these goats and it was one of those what ifs came in because the plan wasn't going the way that we wanted it to go so the what if what if compromised and um and when you say compromise yeah yeah the enemy knew we were there because we tried to get hold of the boy but he ran off to there was an Iraqi position a couple hundred

meters away from us and up until then we're all right with that because our biggest weapon is concealment it's not actually the weapons we got it's concealment so we've lost our concealment we lost our biggest weapon so we're compromised so it's then trying to get out and then put one of these actions on was then try and get south and eventually try and get onto the the radios trying to pick up a helicopter that picks up you know one or two days as long as we kept on running, we might get picked up. But that all went wrong because the Iraqis came down. So we had to implement what's called the, which is another sort of what if, what's called the E&E plan, the escape and evasion plan.

And for us, bizarrely, it was heading to Syria, which was the closest country of safety. And normally what you do, you go to the American or the British embassies. They don't knock on the door, so they won't let you let you in and you you know you sort of jump the fence no weapons hug a tree quickly so you know not a threat so they don't get shot and you have these statements like pass words you know statements that you say which then go through the system that then get you back to you know wherever it is in that case it would get us back to cyprus so off we went towards syria and then during the time trying to get up to the Syrian border there was eight of us and then three died well we thought four died but the one later on we found

was wounded three died four were captured myself included only one actually got over the border and got to the British embassy in Syria and eventually was sent back got routed back to the one of the sovereign bases down in Cyprus. So you're captured and tortured, and I know you've spoken about this in the past, and how does it feel when people ask you to describe it? Very sort of bland and monotonous, quite frankly. It's just, it's interesting. It's really sort of hard to explain,

so it's not sort of as if sort of immune to what had happened, but the fact is, what happened? You've got no control of it, and really I got that, if you like, the mindset from part of our training, we're called prone to capture troops. So you have obviously periods where you go off, you know, and you're catching rabbits and, you know, making tea out of barks of trees, all that survival stuff. But actually, just as importantly, you spend anything from a week to two weeks, really, listening to other people's experiences who've been captured.

And it's just not military guys, it's people who have kidnapped victims, anybody being held against their will. They tell their stories, you have Q&As with them. The argument is, well, you listen to these people and then if there's just one sort of sentence that comes in handy if you're captured, it's worth it. And I sort of grabbed from a US Marine Corps pilot during the Vietnam War, spent six years in solitary confinement, being held up there, which was a quite notorious prison called

Hanoi Hilton at the time. Every major bone in his body had been broken. He had a self-heal. He had no teeth, no hair, you know, lost all the muscle mass on his backside because they just continuously just hit it with frayed bamboo. But he was alive. You know, he's a tree hugger now, whatever he is in Hawaii, but he's alive. And what he said he said he said you can't do anything physically about what they're doing because you know he said well I was a marine pilot so initially I'm resisting they said well instead of you know four guards coming in or six guards coming so you've got to accept that and then just keep if you like the integrity of your of your mind and for him he you know built a new house and lecture and then repainted it every couple of

years all those those sort of exercises that he found work for him so i used to think of his story i think do you know what i'm on week two you know i know someone had six years of this and he's still running around you know hugging trees or whatever it is in in a way so so far so good you know and this is the thing if you're still breathing you're still winning so all of the the interrogations and the burnings and all that sort of stuff, well, it happened. Don't want it to happen again, but it was done. And, you know, your teeth were smashed in with rifle butts. You were made to clean out latrines with your hands and then lick your hands. You've got hepatitis.

How do you deal with the pain? How do you separate the pain from the brain? Yeah, it's just really accepting it it's quite interesting it's because of being by then i don't know what it is being in the other 16 years or whatever it was you know being used to being wet cold and hungry certainly you know being used to like getting fights and garrison towns and you know all that sort of stuff that goes on in infantry battalions so it's not as if this sort of it's the first time that they've experienced sort of violence in in that way which i understand when people haven't becomes a quite a big shock so

i've had a sort of a sort of an indoctrination into that but the pain was just a matter of accepting it it's not as if i'm looking forward to it so when they you know the doors used to get knocked to these steel plate doors that they're kicking in because they're all warped to get in because obviously you knew he was going for interrogation or they're coming in to you know to get bombed every night they're taking casualties they're coming to take frustrations out so you know that's going to happen but it's not as if it's the fear of the pain because you know it's coming it's the fear of the unknown you know what is going to happen and certainly that banging of the doors and all right so you know they're coming in. Or you can hear footsteps coming down the corridors

and you can hear them, you know, talking with each other. And actually they pass your cell and they go to someone else's. You think, oh, great, they'll leave me alone for another half hour. It's fear of the unknown rather than the fear of the pain. In that situation, are you fearful of death? No, it's never really worried me. One of the things that I've always sort of thought about is I felt being in the military is like a mutual contract.

So they gave me great, they gave me education, they gave me all those things that I needed. And part of that is, certainly for somebody like me because I was in the infantry in the special air service, well, what you do, you go and fight. That's what you do. So part and parcel of that is the possibility of dying. And I suppose from a military point of view, it's quite good.

But in person, it seems sometimes irresponsible. They don't really care. They still don't. point of view it's quite good but in person we seem sometimes like irresponsible they don't really care and still don't it's like it's going to happen sometime so it never has and and still doesn't really worry me because it's you know we all got to die sometime sort of thing so it's not as if it's the fear of dying it was the fear of the unknown if you like of well what's going to happen tomorrow and then go straight away cut away from that go ah i know someone who had six years of this. And then sort of try and justify it that way. But the fact of dying, no, it never ends.

In fact, I go through this constant thing every 10 years, you know, because I thought, oh, I'll be gone by the time I'm in my 30s. Get my 30s, I'll be gone by the time I'm in my 40s. You know, it just goes on, you know. Yeah, I'm not particularly worried about it. Well, it's interesting, given the context of this discussion, that we're talking about fear of death, because you almost didn worried about it. Well, it's interesting, given the context of this discussion, that we're talking about fear of death,

because you almost didn't make it as a baby. And we are talking coincidentally in Guy's Hospital. And I say coincidentally because you're here now as a film consultant, but you were found here as a baby in a Harrods carrier bag on the steps of Guy's Hospital. What an extraordinary start in life. Yeah, and I never really thought about it that way because it is, certainly as a kid, I was adopted when I was five. So I went through the care system and was like, I thought it was great, actually.

I thought it was really good. You know, stuff I can remember, I thought it was really good fun because, you know, I lived in big Victorian houses that were, you know, got like four kids in a room, bunk beds, all bunk beds all that sort of stuff clearly as I got older I'd be moved into one of them rooms and there's loads of other kids and I thought it was all right and never really thought about it because like my older brother was adopted as well not my natural brother but from another family he was an abused kid in the same home and he was older than me and so when he went off to foster an adoption and all that, and I thought that's what you do. You sort of, this is like the waiting room.

So you're having fun there. And then what happens? You get picked up and then you get fostered and adopted, you know. Not in a fairytale way. I realised that, you know, I didn't have parents. But that was the, if you like, the system, you know. And then, right, it's this, brother John, right, John's gone, right. And then bizarrely, I went to the same house as John went to, it's this, the brother John, right, John's gone, right, and then bizarrely,

I went to the same house as John went to. So I thought, great. Never sort of thought about it. I thought it was just the natural thing. It sounds like you've been quite used to being in systems. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you failed at school. Yeah, miserably, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, too lazy. And not far from here, actually, because bizarrely, I landed up in the Tabard Estate, which is, like, you know, about 10 minutes away, yeah. Yeah, just too lazy and not far from here actually because bizarrely I landed up in in the Tabard estate which is like you know about 10 minutes away yeah yeah just too lazy it felt like school was like a waiting room where and actually living in a family sort of atmosphere as well was just the waiting room for when you can move off so I thought well I don't need an education certainly the views at that stage my views were quite sort of low you know the horizons because it, because it was, if you get on the council, we have cracked it. So we're already on the council,

so chances are I'll get a council flat. I couldn't get a job with the chapters, with the print, because there was lots of prints there, because, you know, they didn't have an uncle, or my dad wasn't in the print. The docks here, and one of the reasons why, this is an amazing sort of regeneration. So all those docks, you know, once the kid was all dead and desolate.

So all those jobs had gone, the jobs for so get job on london transport bus driver or a tube driver or a panel beater because nobody really knew what a panel beater was but apparently they made loads of money so that's what we do as long as you get on the council get one of those jobs cracked it so what do i need an education for and that was it and you left school at what age 16 really i started work really about sort of 15 really and then just that last year didn't really bother because i thought well what's the point and am i right in saying that your literacy wasn't great no so i didn't realize it at the time but when i joined the reason why i was a in the infantry as opposed to a helicopter pilot like the film that we got shown was that that everybody there had the numeracy and literacy

of what we now know as Key Stage 2, 11-year-old or less, and mine was about a nine-year-old. How incredible that you have made so many people read your books because you do a lot of literacy work for charity now, don't you? Yeah, I do, yeah. You go into failing schools and prisons and youth offender institutions, those of things so you know you do the ss bit tell a few war stories all that sort of stuff then a little bit about writing not too much because they find that boring but talking about the films and the people you don't work with and all the different films

and the little funnies and all that and you go well look if i don't do it you can all you got to do is start reading because once you start start reading, it's an addiction. Then what happens? Your literacy goes up. But also at the same time, numeracy goes up. And I don't know why that happens, but that's why reading is so important. Because it helps with numeracy as well. And you say, well, if I can't do it, you can.

All you've got to do is give it a go. How did you start to write your books? I was asked. I was getting out of the special air service. And that's how it literally worked. I met the agent, went through the process, book came out, I was in Columbia and the publisher's gone, well, this book's doing all right. Do you want to do another one? I said, well, what do you think? Of course. But how did you actually, like practically? Oh, it was almost, well, it was very, very bland initially. What happens is because I spent

sort of three years doing presentations to different organisations, whether they're UK organisations, Americans, Germans or whatever it is, because it's used as an example of planning preparation and how you can use the actions on and all these sort of things. Different military academies, those sort of people look at it. And so I'd do those presentations. So by then, all the other external agencies information was in that presentation, if you like. So initially it was really bland. Like it was it was like a patrol report and so the publishers or the editor went well it's all very good but it's quite boring isn't it it's like so what i was told was read touch and avoid joe simpson book and he said if you can get the sense of place sense of environment

and the emotion in to this, it'll work. So I've read the book many times. I didn't see the film for years because I didn't want to ruin the book. But the film's great. But I read that and sort of tried to understand the way that Simpson was playing about with it. And got on with it. Yeah, and it worked. So they didn't ever say to you, we're going to pair you with a ghostwriter and that person?

No, it was too tight. I just wanted the money. So it was only one book. No, no, no, no. Now I start doing it myself. Because at that time you look at it and you go, great, that's the mortgage done. You know, in that sort of looking at those realistic things

where you go, great, it's the mortgage done. Fantastic. You've said in the past that you feel you were raised on a council estate in South London, therefore it made sense that you would end up in the British Army. But if you had been born in the bog side it would make sense that you were a member of the ira yeah yeah would it also have made a sort of sense for you to go into a life of crime i mean that was something that you yeah well that's what happened that's

why i landed up in the borstal system i think that that again it was all part of wanting stuff but not really willing to do the work to get it whether it's the academic work to get the job that earns the money for the people to have those sort of cars or whatever and the resentment that they've got without thinking about well actually they work quite hard for them so there was all about well i want that without the effort to go and get it because it was quite easy to do and there was there was a slight sort of point about that. It was, you know, the haves and the have-nots. And it was like, well, why have they got it?

And I go, well, clearly because they work for it, you know. But at that stage, you think, oh, well, this is all wrong. So not only am I going to nick it, I nick stuff that I wouldn't know what to do with anyway once I've got it. You know, no idea how to sell it or whatever, but nick it. So there was the satisfaction of I might have something of value but the satisfaction of having it off of somebody who doesn't deserve it anyway it was sort of a dual sort of reasons why you know sort of just nicking stuff basically and when you were in Borstal did that just feel like another system

yeah yeah which I wanted to get out of so So that was all part of that sharp shock, you know, what was going on at that time. And I thought, well, it's doing no good, basically. Otherwise it was quite sort of violent and all those sort of things. And I think, well, is it worth doing all the nicking for this? But I knew that once I got out, which has been borne out, you know, through the ages, people going back to the same environments, they're going to do the same thing again.

So the short shark ops didn't work, as in a lot of sort of penal reform. But there was a lot of sort of groups that were lobbying government at the time about social mobility and these, because there was no rehabilitation, of going into the ball stores to try and get the kids out and trying to rehabilitate in a better way.

A bit of social mobility. And the military were one of them. And that's how it all really happened. Because the deal was, if you got accepted in the military, you didn't go back to the border, you went home until you got your reporting done. Yeah, go back and get your stuff, but that was fine. But you go in the army, and then again, short term sort of thing, thinking, oh, yeah, I'll join the army, I'll get out of here. Not thinking that, well, maybe I'll be there for, like, forever and I'll be out of here in about two months. But, you know, I clearly didn't think about that.

It was just like, right, there's a door open, I'll do it. Thinking I was going to be a helicopter pilot, as we all did, because that was the film. Then I ended up in infantry, but I thought it was all right. What did your parents think of you? Oh, they thought it was stupid. Certainly joined the army. My dad was like a proud deserter from the Army Cating Corps, National Service.

He's like, you know, what did you go in the army for? You know, that sort of stuff. Certainly the infantry. But then, you know, as all these things, within a sort of couple of years, it all sort of changes. And it was all their idea anyway. You know, all that sort of stuff. What did they think of Bravo 2-0, the book?

They're quite proud of it, actually. Initially, it was a bit of a cock up where certainly my parents told I was already dead and then popped up about a week later, you know, and then they had to go back and say, oh he's not actually, he's just been found sort of thing in Baghdad. So they've had that sort of rollercoaster going on. The book

come out and I had to buy it for him because my dad's going I'm not buying it. Is it your book? Well you buy it for me, I'm not going to buy it. So I had to buy him a book. And I couldn't give him one. I had to go and buy one and give it to him. Have you ever found your biological parents? Yeah, it doesn't interest me at all. And again, I got it from my older brother.

My older brother was sort of playing. When he had his first sort of couple of kids, he was playing with it, generic diseases and all those sort of things. And he says he doesn't know. And it sort of upset my dad more than my mum, actually. And I've never had that need. And I thought, well, actually, it just creates a load of drama anyway.

And I'm not that, you know, here's what it is. So it's never been a big thing. Still not really. Peyton, it's happening. You're finally being recognised for being very online. It's about damn time. I mean, it's hard work being this opinionated. And correct.

You're such a Leo. All the time. So if you're looking for a home for your worst opinions. If you're a hater first and a lover of pop culture second. Then join me, Hunter Harris. And me, Peyton Dix, the host of Wondery's newest podcast, Let Me Say This. As beacons of truth and connoisseurs of mess, we are scouring the depths of the internet so you don't have to.

We're obviously talking about the biggest gossip and celebrity news. Like, it's not a question of if Drake got his body done, but when. You are so messy for that, but we will be giving you the B-sides. Don't you worry. The deep cuts, the niche, the obscure. Like that one photo of Nicole Kidman after she finalized her divorce from Tom Cruise. Mother. A mother to many. Follow Let Me Say This on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

Watch new episodes on YouTube or listen to Let Me Say This ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Will no one rid me of this troublesome priest? This is a time of great foreboding. These words supposedly uttered by a king over 800 years ago. These words supposedly uttered by a king over 800 years ago set in motion a chain of gruesome events and sparked cult-like devotion across the world. I'm Matt Lewis.

Join us as we unwrap the enigma and get to the heart of what really happened to Thomas Beckett by subscribing to Gone Medieval from History Hit. Talk to me about failed relationships, because I know you are happily married and have been for 20 odd years, but it took a while to get to that point. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, I've been married five times. It's quite interesting in a way that it's a mixture of certainly the system I was in, but also the selfishness of wanting a bit of everything, really. So certainly in the military at that time, it's changed now for the better.

But at that time, there was no support set up for girlfriends or partners or whatever the term would be then. or partners or whatever the term would be then. So if you were stationed, say, in the UK and you got then sent to Germany for four years or Cyprus or wherever you may be going, so your partner could come with you and even if you had kids, they could come with you, but there's no support because you weren't married. If you got married, you then get married,

caught with subsidised housing, all the medical care and all that. So it's very sort of clear cut. And even at that stage, if a female soldier became pregnant while they were out, you know, it's a really weird draconian sort of system. So basically, you know, along with loads of other things, they go, all right, well, we're off to jail, we'll get married. It's just within that environment, that's what you do.

You get married, which is totally counterproductive because it costs the army even more effort and money because within a couple of years it all goes wrong. And, you know, you land up there, you know, all these sort of families in Germany who then have to be repatriated back. According to that, and certainly getting into special air service, I was married in special air service. And all of a sudden, in the scheme of things, it's not a lot. But in the military, you're sort of really well paid and you can actually afford to buy a house and do all that stuff so people are buying their houses and all that and you sort of you know get married you get the car and all that sort of stuff and i thought

yeah that'd be great because everything's there because you're in the army you've got your house and the property boom then in the 80s and 90s all that sort of stuff and then the other thing in my head i wasn't thinking i'm away for about seven seven months a year and then I went on I got offered a job for two years and I went yeah all right and then when I went home and sort of saying it'd be all right because I'm thinking that's great because we saved loads of money over two years I went oh yeah away for two years I went well you're off I'm off you know it's all and quite sensibly so yeah so it was quite interested in that sort of selfishness if you like and then sort of trying to want a bit of everything. Do you feel vulnerable when you're in love?

No, no, it's a mutual contract. It's like, no, no, no, no, far from it. Slavery has been abolished, isn't it? So it's like a mutual contract. So at any time, any one side could be going. You know, it's not as if my wife's gone, oh, yeah, everything's great and all that, or everything's terrible and I'm staying. You it's your own person if she doesn't like it

she'll go so the job is to make sure that she doesn't go so that's where if you like the mutual contract sort of comes in isn't it because it's you know it's pointless any other way and those first four marriages did you know before they ended that they were in danger of ending uh do you know i didn't even think that far it was just it is and you know and because obviously in all sort of types of organisations whether it's you know I don't know if you look at the police force or fire service all these sort of institutions the role rate is quite high and a mixture of the obviously what you know the job is but you know and again a bit of the the selfishness of wanting a bit of everything but never really thought that

far quite frankly it was all about that point well, I really enjoyed being in the army. So it was like, oh, it's great, we're off to Sunset. It's like, oh, it's great, it's like, you know, this, that and the other, I'm doing this. And so it was all about being in the army as opposed to being married in the army. That was the problem. And do you think part of the reason your marriage now is so successful is because you're not in the army?

Yeah, a mixture, really. I think that's certainly about the whole separation thing, where you're away for so long, which, you know, doesn't happen. the army yeah a mixture really i think that's certainly about the whole separation thing where you're away for so long yeah which which you know doesn't happen only know two successful marriages military type marriages you know we've been you know and now their kids are married and all that sort of stuff and they're still together i think it's the trying to understand this mutual contract sort of business which i didn't understand at that stage you know it's not as if it's always been there it's that trying to understand that mutual contract.

And probably there would have been a time where I'd go, well, do you know what? What's the priority? So if the priority is getting married or staying married, well, we've got to get out of the army. Because there were people who were, you know, far more emotionally intelligent than me who got out after, you know, six, seven, eight years

because it was affecting the fact is that they didn't see their kids. And you think, what's the matter with, what are you doing? But of course they were far more intelligent about it. And they got out. So they'd done their stuff, they'd done their bit, and now they get out into the real world and, you know, do family stuff. So do you think your failures as a previously married person have made you into a better husband now?

Yeah, totally. Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, again, understand that there's a bit more going on than just what you're doing, you know, because the whole idea is whatever you're doing, you're going out there to get whatever it is. And normally it's financial gain, isn't it? We're hopefully with some satisfaction about what you're doing, but you're bringing it back to do the stuff that you two want to do. want to do that's the if you like the basis of it as opposed to being out there and being a big wig doing whatever it is and all that and then coming back to sort of put your feet up the the work's got to be back within the marriage so that's the whole thing i don't own anything i don't own a thing i used to have a motorbike i sold it before the winter because i was off on this film so i was out of the country for a couple of months and i thought well i'm just going to garage it over the winter time i'll get rid of it and get a new one in the spring. And the motorbike was the only thing that I owned.

Everything else is in my wife's name. It's just because I don't need it. It's great. So bring it all in. Well, you've got it anyway. Does that give you a sense of control as well? Because if everything goes to shit, you can get out really quickly. No, not really.

I think it's that fact of the financial stuff of it. Yeah, there is a sense of control not having anything. it's a sense of freedom if you like not having anything but at the same time it's looking it shows a commitment you go look look do you have it all i'm not you know i'm not interested in it it doesn't really interest me so you bring it in and you're sort of doing your if you like your bit to show commitment continuous jokes about it all the time you know do time, you know, like, well, yeah, we've got to suck up to her now, it's pointless talking to you, you know, we'll get rid of you

because she's got it all anyway, you know, all that sort of stuff. But the fact is there's more of a sense of commitment rather than the freedom, really, because the fact that it's, even if it was this normal sort of, you know, the 50-50 thing and all that stuff, well, it is what it is, and the fact is the fact of losing 50 percent of the divorce or or even more well i'm not too worried about that because well just go and make it some go and make it again or you know and just sort of get my finger out and go and make some money do you believe in love believing it's a mutual contract

between two people and in a way that they want to live their lives together yeah as opposed and again i mean big trouble if i don't do the birthday card. All that sort of stuff goes on. But the fact is, it's a two-way thing, isn't it? And the fact is that the love of somebody who's an absolute arsehole or something, well, that's dependency. That's nothing to do with love, is it? So that's that mutual contract. And aside from loading the dishwasher, what would your wife say is the trickiest thing

about being married to you? Getting a grip with me most of the time because you get all these mad ideas about doing that and you go, no, you're a dickhead. What you're really saying is, and I go, oh yeah, you're right. Basically, there's this constant sort of reality checks. I get involved in startups and the normal system where like most of them are fail and then one or two will come up and they pay for the rent, all that sort of stuff. So some of them are absolutely crazy. So I'll come back to her and say, this is really good. Look at this. And she'll go, no, it's not.

Have a look at it this way. And you go, oh, yeah. And then she'll go, dick. And then I walk away sort of thing. So it's getting grips of, if you like, the enthusiasm of going through doors. So you go going through those doors and then obviously some of them just go totally wrong and all that. But it's all right because you come out

and there's always another couple of others. And the more success you have, the more doors there are. So what happens, it just goes on and on and on and on. So then the thing that she does is do those checks on the doors. That sounds like a great team. And also sounds to me that you're very driven by progression you've got to be moving forwards yeah very much so yeah very much almost feel guilty at the point of not taking advantage of the opportunities the fact of and

it almost sounds cliche but try not to make it sound like that but if you're coming from the fact you've got nothing and then all of a sudden stuff all this stuff is happening and you think there's really a lot out there, whether it's educationally experience or financial, there's so much out there. And all of a sudden these doors are open, you go, well, you've got to give it a go, you know, because it's mad if you don't give it a go. So what happens is people go, oh, you're lucky. And you go, no, you're not lucky. What it is, is trying to identify the opportunities and then going for it. Everybody has luck, but it's trying to identify the luck.

And where is it? So give it a go. Well, it doesn't work, fine. Come out and try something else. Talk to me about being a psychopath. Well, again, it helps me very much. About seven years ago, the Department of Experimental Psychology in Oxford

were carrying out these experiments about where psychopathy aids society as it goes against it. Because we all think, straight away, we straight away we think Hannibal Lecter Dexter all those sort of characters so there's been a lot of work that's been going on and identifying people in in different sort of spheres of life certainly in institutions and employment where they are and the reasons why they're there and why they they thrive and one of those areas they were looking at the military so the guys that sort of come to us and they and sat down and done some over a period of about two weeks done some

experiments in fact we went to Essex University because they've got the machines that go ping so we went down there you do a little bit of of therapeutic stuff you know when's the first time you've seen your mother you know all that sort of stuff and then you do the clinical tests and the readings became quite sort of in academia became sort of quite famous for that to get another compliance team in we had to re-sit them again because they thought machines gone wrong and so they come back and said well where you register in psychopathy you're a psychopath if you say for instance i've gone mad and chopped 10 people up when i'm in court and all that i'll go abroad more because i range in that but within that one percent or just less than one percent of

of you know psychopaths there's many subgroups so within that subgroup and basically people like me sort of exist in where you would expect actually military financial sector legal sector interestingly the medical profession and in particular in neurosurgery and these sort of people who there's no room for empathy certainly neurosurgeons got less than a millimeter play with you know and um you know if he does it wrong he does it wrong right move on the next one because he's got to make sure he makes the next one better i went home and i said oh you know my wife said well how'd it go i said i'm a psychopath she went yeah and and like you know and that was all part of the gripping thing i was

talking about where like she just grips it and then all of a sudden then she became part of the process as well they don't know how do you what do you do and you know do you sort of control him and all that she's just gripping you know and actually what it worked out was what i like is that point of somebody sort of gripping it saying saying, no, you don't do that. I'll show you. Obviously, you can't see it. So what happens is part of it is almost the same as autism. We can't understand or can't read people's faces.

So one of the reasons why I'm sort of decorated, you know, war hero and all that is not because like war hero is the fact is that I don't recognize what's going on so i can't recognize the fear in other people's faces so go right we'll do this camera let's go and then because i don't recognize it so i just get on because i can't actually recognize the danger because it's a game it becomes a game so she prints these out for me oh my goodness so so it's like so these were my this this was my new ones for when I went on the film last year. So Andy's just handed me what look like six emoji faces. One is smiling. One has a downturned mouth. One has a very downturned mouth.

Exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah. Really, really miserable. And one is sort of angry. And it's sort of sellotape so that it's kind of laminated. And genuinely you use this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So basically what she'll do is go, right, she'll go, look at this. She's upset.

Look at this. This is an upset face. So when you see this face, what you do is, whether it's make a cup of tea, go and buy some flowers or whatever it is. So what I'm capable of as a functioning psychopath, I'm capable of creating what's called cold empathy. So what happens is because my amygdala doesn't work, that's the whole basis of the fear so fight

and flight all those things it just don't exist so one of the things is empathy doesn't exist as well but what i can do is create and you can see it on the on the trials where you know the neurons doing their stuff what i understand is that people will be upset about something so what i need is then the guidance to do something so your cat's dead i don't really care but i know you care so then what do if the cat's well go and get a bunch of flowers or something and then so i can create an empathy and i understand that you're upset but i don't understand it if you see what i mean i don't feel it i don't feel it at all so that's so interesting because when we first started talking you were talking to me about the boy in Iraq, who was herding goats who compromised your position. Now, if I'd been in

that position, obviously, I would never be in the SAS, because I would be completely incapable. But I can imagine feeling fear. But also, oh, my God, what are we going to do with this child? Because I don't want to harm him because imagine his family would be grieving. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That process would happen in my head, which would make me ineffective. Yes. But are you saying that you don't have that process? No, I don't.

If you're looking at that instance, so the fact is we try to get older, the boy, but he was too fast. He'd gone to the Iraqi position. So the fact is we're not going to sort of take him down and kill him and all this sort of stuff for a number of reasons. There will be a time where he might have to be killed, and that would be my job because I was the commander. But basically what happens is that what you're trying to do is stop him going to the Iraqi gun positions.

So you get him down. Now what we'd initially done was then we bound him up, keep him there with us, and we'd take him there with us. We wouldn't have killed him at that stage because the way that we operate is what's called hard routine. So all your kit's on all the time. You urinate, you defecate in bags and everything. Everything has to go with you when you leave

because you might have to go back. So you leave no sign. You don't bury anything. There's no smoking, no cooking. You don't have sleeping bags. All the kit's on all the time. So when we first got to that position, before it was first light, we went out with three other guys and we done what's called a clearing patrol. Just making sure we understood what was around us before it got light.

And sometimes your encounter dogs and things like this that might compromise that you're there. So you kill them. But you don't leave them there because then, well, there's somebody killing dogs so what's going on you'd kill them and you bag them up so you have been lying this night bag them up put the sand in so the fact is you can't avoid the fact that the dog's dead but then it questions you know the local population well where's the dog if it gets to that where's the dog oh the dog's gone dog's not dead there's not a problem yet dog's just gone so you'd have to carry that dead weight. So for the boy, it's counterproductive, sort of killing him in that point.

And also, if you do kill him straight away and you do get caught, you're not going to last five minutes in that immediate area. But then what we'd have done would have taken him with us for this helicopter pick-up, just dump him. You know, it would be a trauma-type nightmare. But actually, he's in the middle of a war. You know, it's one of the lucky ones. Over 150,000 civilians were killed in that war. But actually, he's in the middle of a war. It's one of the lucky ones. Over 150,000 civilians were killed in that war.

So therefore, he's one of the survivors. If it had come to the point of the only way to stop the compromise would be to kill him, then I would do that. Number one, because it's my job to do it. But number two is that there's a bigger responsibility between the fact of that boy and then the team. Unfortunately, we're both in this, you know, both sort of parties are in this conflict in the middle of a war. And there's a bigger responsibility to keep myself alive and even more so keeping everybody else alive.

And they've got the mutual responsibilities as well. But the fact is, if you were to come on, you're the one who does the boy. So that would be me. And we'd have to bag him up and carry him and i know you have killed people and i know that you're often asked about how that feels and when you were 19 that was the first time that that happened and when i read you describe it in writing you actually said that one of the things was that you felt an enormous amount of fear yeah and and then shame you didn't express that to any of your colleagues yeah that you were fearful no no in fact because nobody wants to hear all that stuff so and then and during that time in the war there was this was in northern ireland there's big

incentives to get the first killer that tour or an eight was called an a1 arrest the top 20 terrorists if you manage to arrest one of them or you killed a terrorist you've got two weeks leave at the end extra so you weren't in place for what they call a rip the relief in place where the next battalion comes in and the whole thing is a logistical nightmare so literally you go two weeks before that you go home you've got two weeks leave then you get the two weeks leave after with everybody else so you get a month off so it was all these incentives you know the big thing so when i got the first killer lab tour so it's great and all that sort of stuff but actually and it was all on the news

that night and all that sort of stuff going on but actually everybody just wanted to know the war story bit so i told them that and then i thought well i'm not gonna tell them you know it was like i don't want to get up yet because they're still shooting sort of thing you know and again because it was that fear of that unknown. The very first time I'm like, whoa, is this... So that whole thing, I felt like I couldn't tell anybody because nobody wanted to hear it anyway. They just want all the war stories because of this big first kill of the tour,

all that stuff going on. And it was only when I got into the Special Air Service, when we'd done a couple of jobs, and you've got guys there who'd been in the Special Air Service, I don't know, 10, 12, 15 years, 15 years okay don't want to do that one again you know and it was so it was all right there's a thing it's called the gift of fear and it's because what it does it brings everything into a a more sensible sort of viewpoint certainly with the psychopathy what I'm able to do is is actually sort of it's not slow motion in that way you think as you might see on on tv but almost everything's very easily broken down

now that I've got it and understand well actually what I didn't understand was that it's first time it happened and there's not that too much ability to be actually to have fear which is going to affect you actually try and use it and again this this you know i don't even know come out return was great it's a gift of fear and how you can focus that in and then certainly as time gone on and realizing now that because i didn't i had no clue until i'd done these these trials whenever it was that actually it was a different type of experience from that fear it was an experience of of not knowing what to do because i've never experienced it before so i was trying to sort of narrow it down.

There's great sort of accounts of certainly sportsmen who register quite high with their psychopathy who are able to break down their movements in whatever action. It was particularly basketball where they can do their three jumps and everything comes in a more of a slow motion picture comes in like this really weird sort of pen picture.

And they just do their own thing with all this stuff going around them. And certainly as I sort of progressed in the military, things used to sort of turn out. Not slow motion, but it seemed more clearer than it actually was. And you don't attach feeling to it? No. No, no, no, no, no. Because if you attach feeling to it, you mess it all up. Because it's not about feeling, is it?

It's about sort of, it's either, you know, well, two things. Trying to kill someone or stop being killed. That's basically it. So the actual feeling about it, there's no point. And that's one of the reasons why, if you're looking at, I don't know, say the American experience in Vietnam, and even more, he said, right, during the Second World War, where the vast majority of people firing weren't actually aiming at people

because they had that feeling. And that's why, you know, oh, so many... It took about 44,000 rounds in Vietnam to kill one of the enemy because people weren't actually aiming. They were, you know, going for the motions because the feelings are in the way. But that's the human condition. That's what it is.

You know, it's not as if I'm the normal sort of condition. Do you ever cry? No. Have you ever cried in your life? Yeah, opera. Oh, my. Yeah. Is that the only time?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I didn't know why I was looking at it. I'm going, what's going on here? Yeah, yeah. And even worse, German. I know, it's mad. Which opera? Yeah, yeah.

Ring Cycle. Was it only the once that you... Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's great and genuinely were you sitting there

thinking oh what's happening to my eyes yeah yeah that's great and it's and you know

bizarrely German rather than sort of some emotional big sort of Italian thing going on yeah it was great but it's about 15 hours isn't it

it's probably what I was crying about I didn't want to get out but no it was whenever that was I don't know 10, 12 years ago.

Have you listened to it again? Yeah, all the time, yeah. So when you listen to it again, it doesn't prompt the same reaction? No, it doesn't, no. No, it doesn't. But whether it was the environment or whatever, you know, I don't know. I don't know what was going on. But yeah, yeah, 10, 12 years ago.

My final question, Andy McNabb, is whether you feel successful. It comes and goes sometimes. Sometimes it's thinking, oh, this is going all right. And then thinking, well, it could have gone a bit better. And then why didn't it go a bit better? So it sort of ebbs and flows. But to generalise, yeah. And it's feel successful and lucky about it because there's so much luck involved as well.

So it's a bit of both, really. Yeah, successful and lucky with it. there's so much luck involved as well. So it's a bit of both really. Yeah, successful and lucky with it. How old are you now? I'm 59. Okay. So as you said earlier, you're still breathing. So you're still winning. Yeah, still breathing, still winning.

It's great. Andy McNabb, thank you so, so much for appearing on How to Faith. Thank you.