How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S4, Ep8 How to Fail: Jamie Laing

Episode Date: May 22, 2019

'And now, the end is near / And so I face the final curtain...'Yes, it's the SEASON FINALE! I know, I know: it's gone so fast hasn't it? What's that they say about time flying when you're having fun calling your brain Becky? (That's a podcast in-joke, peeps, don't panic if you're a new subscriber and you haven't got a clue what I'm on about, but do check out my episode with Mo Gawdat, S4, Ep4).Anyway, don't be too sad because I have one solid-gold, cast-iron, brilliant guest for you to usher out this season. Step forward, Jamie Laing. Some of you might know him from E4's structured reality show, Made In Chelsea. Some of you might not watch reality television and believe it to be ushering in the end of days. But I implore you, even if you have no interest in the show and even if you've got preconceptions of who Jamie is, to give this episode a listen. He is such an sincere, funny, generous and self-aware person and so willing to talk openly about the times in his life when things didn't go according to plan that I truly think you will get a lot from it.Jamie joins me to talk about he impact of parental divorce, panic attacks, anxiety, sporting injury and what happens when your idea of your entire future seems to collapse. We also talk about why he's never managed to have a lasting long-term relationship. Along the way, he quotes life lessons learned from Socrates, William Blake and, that seminal 21st century philosopher, Lucy Watson.I hope you enjoy the final episode in this season. Thank you for all your incredible support. We'll be back in July with eight new fantastic guests for season five. In the meantime, if you felt like rating, reviewing and subscribing, I'd be eternally grateful. How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted by Elizabeth Day, recorded by Chris Sharp and sponsored by 4th Estate BooksThe Sunday Times Top 5 bestselling book of the podcast, How To Fail: Everything I've Ever Learned From Things Going Wrong by Elizabeth Day, is out now and is available here.You can buy Jamie's delicious all-vegan Candy Kittens sweets here and you can listen to his and Frances Boulle's podcast, Private Parts, here. Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayJamie Laing @jamielaing_UKChris Sharp @chrissharpaudio4th Estate Books @4thEstateBooks     Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by card, other conditions apply. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and

journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned from failure. Reality television has its detractors. It has been blamed for everything from body dysmorphia to the downfall of Western civilisation. And yet there is no dispute that it has shaped the world we live in. Look no further than Donald Trump, the former reality TV star who is now President of the United States. He's not my guest today, but I'm delighted instead to welcome Jamie Lang, who knows better than most the reach of reality TV. Since 2011, he has appeared in every series of E4's hit TV show, Made in Chelsea. As one of the longest-serving cast members, devoted Made in Chelsea fans, of which I am one, have followed Jamie as he parties through his 20s, falls in and more frequently out of love,

and finds his perfect shade of peroxide hair dye. On the show, he is hilarious and good fun. Off screen, he has a serious side, setting up a highly successful sweet company, Candy Kittens, which seems apt for the man whose great-grandfather invented the digestive biscuit. Lang also hosts his own podcast, Private Parts, with Made in Chelsea alumnus Francis Boole. Lang is, by his own admission, very posh. But unlike some of his castmates, he possesses a good-natured warmth that makes him charming to watch. One of his school teachers once said that getting cross with Jamie is like drowning puppies. His mother, Penny, puts it this way. Jamie was trouble from

day one. He's disorganised and unreliable, but he's such great fun. The lights go on when he walks in. Jamie Lang, the lights have gone on as he walks into my flat. Do the lights go on? I just don't. I think they were already on. I don't know. Can I just tell you, I am so excited to be on this podcast. I cannot tell you. Your podcast is one of those ones that you listen to and just makes you feel great and happy and wonderful. And I think that needs to happen more in life. Oh, that's such a lovely thing to say. I'm so excited to have you on. And I'm also really thrilled that you listened to the podcast and you totally engaged with the idea of it. And when you emailed me your failures, they're just so moving that you really went there

with them, which I love. Yeah, well, I think that's the thing about having done reality TV, I suppose. But also, I've always been just very open in life, because reality TV is about giving over your life and just being the person who you are and not trying to hide or play a character or things like that. And so I've always been that person to kind of never hold back and always be totally open. So when you do a podcast like this, the best way to do a podcast like this is just be really open with things. And as much as, you know, I've had a very privileged life in so many different ways, I've had a life of failures and of upsets and of all these different things. But I sort of sometimes cast a sort of shadow over it to protect myself and try and be this sort of bright light that comes into the room, as you said.

Yeah, because I think I saw in an interview that you'd given that when you started doing Made in Chelsea, you had panic attacks for a year. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it wasn't so much that. What it was was, well, I did have panic attacks. I basically, I started doing this TV show, Made in Chelsea, and it started at the very beginning where I was at Leeds University. And I also was one of these guys who didn't really know what I wanted to do in life.

My stepfather said to me, Jamie has so much energy. If you harness it, he can do great things. But I never really knew my place. And I find that's the problem with the education system, that if you aren't good at history or geography or maths and those things, you kind of are seen as a failure. And I was very good at sports and all those kind of things, but I wasn't very academic because I wasn't interested in it.

So I was always seen as this kind of failure guy. So then I went and joined, went to Leeds University and I was offered this TV show. I remember I went on holiday with one of my best friend's mums, a girl called Sophie Tanner-Lang, who actually is head of Endemol Shine. And I was on holiday with her and she said, Jamie, what are you going to do with your life? And I said, I was about 20 years old at the time, and I said, I'm going to be a TV presenter. And she said, you're not. And I said, why? And she said, well, you're too posh. You can't be a TV presenter. There's no way that's going to happen.

And I went, okay, well, I've been offered a TV show with my friends about being posh. And she said, don't do it. It'll be the worst idea in the entire world. Reality TV is this, it's that, it's this, it's that. And I said, well, I'm going to go and do it then, because you told me I'm not going to go and do it. And I went on to this TV show and started Made in Chelsea and all those kind of things and it was great fun however

what happens with doing a tv show I suppose is that you're suddenly hit with some sort of fame whatever however minuscule have a zed list people want to call it it's just you know you get some sort of profile you also are 20 years old and you are going partying and all these different things and with that combined and that pressure not really knowing yourself and not really knowing what you want to do and always being seen as a failure I had this anxiety built up in my body and after filming for the first six months I suddenly started having these panic attacks and the problem with the panic attacks was I'm such an open person and so kind of outgoing and all these kind of things.

And suddenly from going from this incredibly outgoing, open person, I then felt that I was trapped in my own body and I didn't want to leave the house. And I didn't want to see people and I had social anxiety because I thought I would have a panic attack whenever I went and saw someone. So it was a really horrible moment and it lasted for about a year, but I just didn't tell anyone because if I told anyone it became a reality and so it was really quite horrible but you learn so much from those kind of things I've got so many questions that spiral outwards from that sorry by the way I talk so much it's amazing you're the ideal guest if I keep talking I apologize because so many people come onto this podcast and say that they felt they failed at their 20s and I think that's because as you rightly identify you're trying to find your way in a world that is confusing because you've left full-time education and you're still working out your own identity but to play out your 20s on screen must have just been a whole heap of anxiety it's a it's a weird

one and you know and people talk about how reality shows and you know people are talking about these suicides and things like that are going on reality tv and in fact actually suicide is the biggest killer for males under 45 and that's happening in all industries doesn't matter if you're a baker a butcher at a reality star it's happening all over the place it's just because you have some sort of profile that it's sort of shown across but it's weird because your 20s i think is about finding your identity and finding out who you are, as you said. And for me, I had no clue who I was, really. I thought I did. I thought I knew everything about me, but I knew nothing. You also then are playing a part on a television show. And I was being myself, but then you have

the ups and the downs and these kind of things and also there's no stability in it as well you know you could suddenly the show could stop they could do all these things and then what do you do with your life and so with all those pressures added up it was really quite I sound like I working down a mine I mean I got to hang out my mates and got paid to do it it was pretty sweet but at the same time it was just a combination of things but all of my anxieties and the heptad things happened from when I was a kid and so I I had to understand myself. And I was trying to blame it on going out too much or doing this or doing that, all those things. But in fact, I had to really discover actually who I was. of happiness, lower level and higher level. The lower level is wealth, fame, power, those kind of things. And that's what I thought I wanted. I thought I wanted to be rich. When I was a kid, I was like, oh no, I'm going to go and be driving a Ferrari when I'm 25 and this kind of thing. And

I thought that's what success was. But in fact, the higher level of happiness is what Socrates is the one you want to go for, which is empathy, friendship, love, kindness, all those kind of things, doing good. And I had to learn throughout my twenties, then the fact, the thing that's going to make me happy, isn't being wealthy and being famous and all those kinds of things. And all those things that you think are going to make you happy and you climb to the top of the mountain, you get there and you realize they're actually not making you happy. What actually makes you happy is having strong relationships with your friends, being empathetic and having self-awareness and doing good and having a purpose. And the most important thing I had to learn was I had to find my purpose

and I couldn't find it throughout my life. I didn't know what I wanted to do. And that's why I started to have anxiety and things like that. Do you think you found your purpose now? I think I have. Yeah, I think so. But I've been really quite lucky because I was able to discover what I wanted to do because I came from a family who gave me an allowance. And I went to a boarding school that taught you to stand up in front of a crowd and be able to give a talk. I didn't have to go and work in the local Asda to pay my rent or look after my family or do those kind of things.

I could sit on my butt and kind of go, okay, I'm 21, what do I really want to do? I'll do this reality show, I'll do this, I'll do that and figure out what I wanted to do. And I figured now that my purpose in life is to, I just love entertaining and whatever form that is, I don't mind. But as long as I can continue to do that,

I will be immensely happy. And, you know, the key is, you don't mind. But as long as I can continue to do that, I will be immensely happy. And, you know, the key is, you know, when we're younger, we're asked these things, if you had one wish, what would your wish be? And people go, oh, I want to, you know, be the richest person in the world or this or those kinds of things. Oh, I want to have 40 girlfriends or whatever it is.

But now actually everyone's wish, what you find out is just to be happy. And that's what I had to figure out throughout my 20s. Although you've had close to 40 girlfriends, but we'll get on to that. But can I just ask, before we get on to your failures, because they tally so much with what we've just been talking about, explain to the uninitiated among us how structured reality works. So on Made in Chelsea, you, Jamie Lang, as I see you now, are living your life. But then

what we see on the programme, how is that different from your actual life? Well, it's a weird one. Okay, so this TV show started because reality TV was beginning and we had things like The Hills and all those kind of stuff. And TV shows are expensive to make, but reality shows are actually quite cheap. So it was kind of this point where we're like, right, let's make cheap shows where we don't really have to pay talent and all that kind of stuff. And what it is, is a TV show, which is definitely based on reality. 100%. What happens on the show is real. However, you can't go into a scene and talk about the weather because that's boring and people don't want to hear about the weather. They want to hear about your love life and they want to hear about your struggles and all those kinds of things. And so everything is real. However,

they can't play everything in your life. So they can't talk about the fact that, well, they could do, but there's not enough time in a 60 minute episode to cover everything that's going on. So they cover your love life and things that apparently people are interested in seeing. But it's, how do I explain it suddenly you'll get an email or a text saying right you were filming at the bluebird and it's at two o'clock in the afternoon and you have to wear something summery because summer's coming around the place and you'll turn up at two o'clock at the bluebird in your summer clothes and they'll say right you have a scene today with spencer matthews and they'll say sp right, you have a scene today with Spencer Matthews. And they'll say, Spencer Matthews has broken up with his girlfriend,

he is very upset about it, you quite like his girlfriend because you've told us that you quite like his girlfriend, so you're going to do a scene about that. And you go, okay, fine, and that's how you go into it. And it's very true, and it's your own emotions. You're not told to do anything, but you're sort of positioned in a place where they go, this is what you're feeling, so tell them that's what you're feeling. But the most amazing thing about reality TV, which I didn't realise until a few

years ago, is that it's all complete improv. And so I've become a master of improv. You can be put into rooms or do podcasts with people. You can just talk, which is quite a useful skill to learn. And people don't realise that that's what they're learning as a reality star. Fascinating. And also, I guess it encourages you to put words to your emotions, which is another thing that I think people struggle with in their 20s. Yeah, completely. I think, you know, a lot of people struggle with speaking about their emotions. Stereotypically, it's a lot of guys because guys have this macho attitude. No, I can't feel that way. And, and I certainly felt like that at the beginning because

I honestly remember when I was having these panic attacks I remember standing in the shower and I was feeling so panicked and I didn't know what was wrong because no one had anxiety then you know that was the scary thing that anxiety wasn't a thing like it is nowadays kids at the age of eight are getting anxiety in schools because of social pressures and social media and all these different things but when I was 20 there was no social media really there was twitter that was it but I remember standing in the shower and feeling this thing that I couldn't understand what it was and I remember speaking to myself going what is wrong with you Jamie and as soon as I said that it became a reality it became real and that would made me even more scared so I can't say that

because people think I'm weird people think I'm. I'm different to everyone else in here. So I can't tell them that I'm odd. And it's the whole point that in life, we are so wanting to fit in that if we don't fit in, we're scared. However, why fit in when we're born to stand out? And so that's what I had to kind of learn. God, I want another tangent. Why fit in when we're born to stand out? I want that on a t-shirt. I think it probably is. I think it probably is I think it probably is let's go on to your first failure which is a really interesting one because in many respects it is not your failure and I'm interested as to why you chose it and you said to me that it was when you were eight years old and your parents got divorced you went to boarding school and your nanny of eight years left and you moved to London with

your mum and it all happened in the same period of time yeah did it feel like your failure well it's interesting right because I it's definitely a failing for me now so I grew up in the countryside in Gloucestershire until I was about seven eight years old in an amazing house I had a swimming pool had all these different things we had a I had my two older sisters who were half sisters. I had my older brother, Alexander, who is a rock in my life. I had my little sister, Emily, who's incredible. And we had my mom and dad and we had a nanny and the nanny looked after me. She's called Julie. And she was incredible. And she looked after me. She was this Northern lady. I was this kid who, I mean mean imagine a bouncy ball and throw it around a room that's I put a face on it that was basically me I just was crazy I used to throw fits I used to throw tantrums I used to

steal money I was like a magpie because I thought it was shiny I was like what so I was this nightmare kid with so much energy but I had all this space in the world to run around and be free and all these things we had a very sort of happy and I had a really happy life at eight years old I was sent to boarding school well actually first in the summer my parents got divorced and I actually never really spoken about this so what happened was is that I remember it so well because my mum who loved my dad very much and my dad also very much loved my mum but it just didn't work for certain reasons I remember I was sitting in a car we were going water skiing and I was about eight years old and my mom was in my dad's office and she took ages to come out and she walked out and she was upset I never ever seen my mom I've never seen my mom cry ever never seen her cry and she walked

out and she was upset and I remember seeing her and I remember her walking towards my dad following her and she came to the car and she opened up the door and I said, where have you been? She said, oh, and I said, what's the matter? What's the matter? And dad was behind her. I said, it hit me straight away. I said, you're getting a divorce.

When you were eight? When I was eight years old, I said, you're getting a divorce. And my dad went, no, no, we're not. And my mum said, tell him the truth. What's happening? Tell him the truth. And he said, well, I think we are. And she slammed the door and said,

go and fuck up someone else's life and I never heard my mum swear either and I remember that moment so well so that happened and I didn't realize what family how important family is and that structure that family needs to have and then I was sent to boarding school after the summer as well that that happened and I didn't understand the concept of boarding school I arrived there and suddenly my mum wasn't there to pick me up and I had to stay the night there and I was like well what is this prison I'm getting given a number and I have to stay at eight years old I mean that's so baby and my nanny left who was this girl called Julie who was so tough but really kind of held sort of things together but the reason why I chose it as my failure is because what happened

to me then was then with all those things that happened, I then got the problem with abandonment, that I was worried that I was always going to be abandoned. And when you get the fear of abandonment, you have this always this desire to find a home and anyone who leaves, you worry so much. And so what you do is you become a real sort of people person towards people. So I was always wanting to be friends with so many different people and always trying to keep them there. And I then couldn't be honest so much with people because I would worry I'd let them down. And if I let them down, they wouldn't like me. If they didn't like me, they would then go and then I would be abandoned. And so I had this whole issue with this whole abandonment thing

because of the divorce and because of this movement and because of sending me to boarding school and all these different things. And because of that, I have a real big issue sometimes where if a wedding is coming up and I know I can't go, I will say, oh yeah, I'll be there because I don't want to let them down. But in fact, then I have to find a way to let them down further down the line. And that's the failing that I have. And my mum always says to me, come on, then I have to find a way to let them down further down the line. And that's the failing that I have. And my mum always says to me, come on, you've just got to be honest in this issue. No one cares. I go, yeah, but I can't.

I'm nodding my head so vociferously because I know exactly where you're coming from. And I was also, and still am a little bit, but I was a massive people pleaser. For similar reasons, my parents aren't divorced, but I also went to boarding school and various things went on. And I outsourced my sense of self to other people and mainly to romantic relationships. So I was in a series of long-term monogamous relationships through my 20s.

And I was just constantly trying to be the perfect girlfriend and the perfect... And exactly the same thing. I would get myself into these situations I didn't want to be in and it was really panicking yeah it's really interesting as well because you've broken free of that I suppose in a sense but I struggle with it still sometimes because I'm so determined for people to like me and I really love people I think people are amazing I struggle with the fact that some people may not like me, some people may find me irritating, and some people may find me with too much energy and all

those kind of things. But I don't like that. And I'm like, Oh, God, I can't handle that. Sometimes. I think also, you know, going to boarding school like you did is a really tricky thing, because you're thrown into an environment where you have to make friends with strangers. And it's bizarre. It's sink or swim. It's sink or single swim and you have to make friends and you do these things but then also everything is done for you everything's done for you so your laundry's done for you you're fed at mealtimes you are given sports to do all those kind of things and I had that from 8 to 18 surrounded by everyone the entire time so I had this home always the entire time and then from 18 to 21 or whatever it was, or 22, I was at Leeds University.

And I still had around my friends the entire time. And then from 22, when you come into London, you're suddenly not around everyone the entire time. And you suddenly go, well, hang on a second, I'm now alone. How do I figure out myself? And that's when all these anxieties and all these issues came onto the surface. Because suddenly you're going, hang on a second, I don't have a home. Have I suddenly been abandoned? I'm completely worried and all these different things and and it becomes a big issue

god that's so interesting can I take you back to when you were eight and you were sent to this boarding school yeah again talking about whether you felt it was your failure did you feel you'd done something wrong did you feel you were being punished no I definitely didn't feel like I had done something wrong but I didn't understand because I as a kid I was just running around doing my own thing I never focused on actual life and things like that and understanding so my mum would have told me what it was but I just wouldn't listen so I didn't know and then suddenly I arrive at this place I remember saying oh where where's my mum and they said well mum's gone home yeah god that's really upsetting me yeah

it's so upsetting yeah it really is yeah and so I went okay I was like really she's gone and I am my mum is my world she's my rock um most incredible woman in the entire world and has been through a lot of pain and shit so she had gone so i was like okay fine and then i remember i went into this dormitory and i was sitting there lying next to this guy called pelham sounds awful god that's terrible it was lovely at the same time but in the first night he suddenly woke up and like started screaming mummy and i was like what is going on yeah so it was i didn't understand the concept of boarding school because I'd never questioned it. It was just a pathway that my dad had done, his grandfather

had done and things like that. So it was never questioned about whether this was right for him or not. And my saving grace I had at school that I was really good at sports. So I was captain of every sport. I was then a sports scholar at a place called Radley College. But I never liked school. I felt trapped. Yeah, I felt trapped. I felt that it didn't offer what I wanted to do. I felt that, like I said at the beginning, that if you didn't do well in your exams, then you were seen as a failure. And I think that's completely wrong. So I always thought that I had to prove myself in a certain way, validate myself in a certain way. And I think that was down to this divorce and going to boarding school and moving to London is because I was suddenly abandoned by my family, what I thought it was, abandoned by that, was left alone.

And of course, I didn't mean to do that, but that's what subconsciously I felt. I was a move from this house in the country doing that and my nanny left and all these things happen at this age. So suddenly I thought, well, I'm a complete, and I wasn't doing well in school until I was 18, apart from sport. And so I was then seen as a failure. And I was like, well, what do I do in life? And so it was a kind of complicated upbringing.

And I'm so glad you're talking about it because I think it's really important to remember that although on the surface and on paper, and you acknowledge this and are so aware of it and self-aware, that on paper you had a charmed existence and you were privileged and you were sent to boarding school and had a great big house and all of this sort of stuff. And actually what lies within that is what connects all of us. Because within that, you're also experiencing anxiety and feelings of failure and not belonging. And I think that it's a beautiful thing to connect on that level,

that no matter what your background, you can connect through that kind of vulnerability. God, every single person on this planet can connect in a certain way. And that's why people are so... We spend our lives, it's so annoying, looking down at phones and not communicating with different people but people are badass people are so sweet you know I did two tv shows one called famous rich and hungry which is a great idea yeah which was a bbc one show where I went and lived with two families on benefits and they were

actually living off one pound 20 for food per day. And I wouldn't live with them. But the most amazing thing is that we're all the same. I connect with these people, these families on such a great level, because we are all the same. And then I did another one recently, which was a police show called Famous and Fighting Crime. I would meet all these people who were being arrested and all these different things. And yes, there are some bad people out there. But the majority of people have been in the wrong place at the wrong time their upbringing has been disastrous they don't understand what's going on on their head they are filled with anxiety and issues and all that and their release is either

drinking or drugs or fighting because it's the only way they can express themselves and they are ridiculed and they are told that they are horrible failures and all these different people but in fact it's just life was so hard for them that they can't understand their own thoughts and things like that. And I connected with these people amazingly well. And everyone can connect with everyone. It's just about actually speaking to them. Hi, I'm Matt Lewis, historian and host of a new chapter of Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit. Join me and world-leading experts every week as we explore the incredible real-life history

that inspires the locations, the characters and the storylines of Assassin's Creed. locations, the characters, and the storylines of Assassin's Creed. Listen and follow Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts. Peyton, it's happening. We're finally being recognized for being very online. It's about damn time.

I mean, it's hard work being this opinionated. And correct. You're such a Leo. All the time. So if you're looking for a home for your worst opinions. If you're a hater first and a lover of pop culture second. Then join me, Hunter Harris. And me, Peyton Dix, the host of Wondery's newest podcast, Let Me Say This.

As beacons of truth and connoisseurs of mess, we are scouring the depths of the internet so you don't have to. We're obviously talking about the biggest gossip and celebrity news. Like, it's not a question of if Drake got his body done, but when. You are so messy for that, but we will be giving you the B-sides. Don't you worry. The deep cuts, the niche, the obscure. Like that one photo of Nicole Kidman after she finalized her divorce from Tom Cruise. Mother.

A mother to many. Follow Let Me Say This on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new episodes on YouTube or listen to Let Me Say This ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Let's move on to your second failure, because you talked there about how sport was your salvation in many ways at school and that it fed into the way that you saw yourself and you were a brilliant rugby player tell us what happened next well I think what happens in life right is that we have a blueprint everyone thinks

that we have a blueprint so when we're younger we're going right I'm going to be an astronaut or I'm going to be a stuntman or I'm going to be married at 24 and have a house here and I'm going to have three kids called Emily, Tom, and Charlie. And you have this blueprint in LifeRite. And my blueprint was I was going to be a rugby player. That's what I wanted to do. And I was very good at sport, very good at rugby. And I was captain of all the teams.

And I was the best player and all these different things. So growing up, that was my USP. That was my unique selling point. that was what i identified myself with going back to that identity thing if you're an artist you want to be an artist if you play the guitar you want to be a rock star growing up i wanted to play rugby and i was in my last year of school and this was my year to be the captain and be the one to be the best in school. And it was always about validation. It was always about, I have to be known for doing something.

I have to be known for being the best at something because otherwise I'm a failure. And on tour in Italy, I caught the ball and I ran across the pitch and I went past a guy and my knee just popped. And I ruptured and tore and everything my ACL and I remember lying on the ground and holding me in the end just going that's my season my season my season and the physio person came and took me off the pitch and she said I promise you your knees fine I promise you your knees when I said do you swear do you swear and she said I promise you your knee is going to be okay and in my head I was like I don't know if it is this is terrible and I want that's what I want to do and I went and had the

MRI scan back in London I remember the things the this MRI scan going on the wall with the doctor and the doctor turned to me and said yeah I'm afraid it's the ACL you're not going to be playing rugby and for me I mean it sounds so little and so minor and things, but for me at the time, it was like the whole world had collapsed because I then lost my identity. I lost who I was and I couldn't be the person, you know, I had all these visions of going on to be this rugby player and all these different things. It was horrendous. And I went back to school and then I wasn't the sportsman anymore. So I was then sidelined because I wasn't academic either so again I lost my sense of self but with all failures right there's always something great that comes out of them what do we learn from our failures and there are so many things that I you know and I can talk about this at the end with

you know regards to divorce and things that but with the rugby thing the biggest thing was it was a blessing in disguise because what I would have tried to do is I would have tried to become a rugby player I would always I was always too small I was always slightly Because what I would have tried to do is I would have tried to become a rugby player. I was always too small. I was always slightly getting injured. I would have not quite made it, but I would have tried to keep going for it because that was my identity and my purpose, and I had to do it. And I would have never quite done it. And so me, right from the beginning, meant that I could never do it. However, it meant that I could then go and do other things that potentially I would never have done Do you cry?

You said that you've never seen your mother cry Yeah I do cry I cry at movies, I can cry at movies and things like that Do I cry over things? I cry when something is really deep and I know that it actually, either someone's hurt, that something's really deep or if I talk about things that I know that it actually either someone's hurt that something's really deep or

if I talk about things that I know have hurt me then I can cry but I won't cry at things like breakups or people potentially dying or things like that with things that people go well why don't you cry like I don't know I don't know why I don't cry those things did you cry with the ACL cry like I don't know I don't know why I don't cry at those things did you cry with the ACL yeah I did I did cry and I remember the doctor saying yeah you can't do it I remember just breaking down and my mum taking me outside and going oh my god what do we do with this child and I then couldn't use that doctor because he had given me the bad news yeah it was terrible and so then I had to go and find a different doctor because I couldn't do it and it was a really really horrible sort of time because you know we life is actually quite tricky that's why Peter Pan had it so amazing is because he didn't want to experience what life actually

has to offer he wanted to stay young and inexperienced and Blake talks about innocence being destroyed by experience you know when, when you're 17, 18, you don't really know anything. And so I just thought, well, of course, I'm going to be this rugby player. Of course, I'm going to be England and all these different things. But I was never going to do that. And looking back at it now, thank God I caught that ball. And thank God I did my knee because otherwise I would be a B team in Portsmouth having had 40 injuries and a broken shoulder and four foot one it would have been a disaster I think that's interesting because some people have said to me

about this podcast that sometimes they wonder why I have such an upbeat view of failure and my response to that is always I think failures can be lessons and nudges from the universe in a different direction, but that it's also okay to feel sad still about one's failures and to sit with that whilst also being contented in another way about life. So I wonder, is there still an element of sadness as much as you're grateful for that nudge in a different direction? Is there still an element of sadness over that? I think there I definitely dream about I dream about playing rugby still now bizarrely um yeah I do all really all the time and I always about to score a try and I can never quite score it it happens a lot am I sad about it no because I feel that I've been I suppose I've been blessed in so many

you know if my name was in a bucket of other names, I would take my name back for sure. And I really understand that and appreciate that. So no, I'm not sad about it, but I look back at it really fondly and go, well, that was great. But also what it made me realize is that to get something you never had, you have to do something you never did. You cannot be ordinary in life someone said to me the other day that the one thing you shouldn't be doing in life is follow logic because logic gets you back in the same place as everybody else if you park a car if you fly a plane if you're driving a boat follow logic because it gets you back a little bit yeah follow logic 100 because it gets you back in the same place as everybody else but if you are living life or building a brand or doing business or in a relationship all these things don't follow logic because it gets you back in the same place

as everybody else be different and the fact that I hurt my knee and I couldn't play rugby and when I couldn't follow on my blueprint that I thought my life was to follow it was able to me to go well I can now just go and do anything I want yeah And that's what was the real blessing because I didn't go right. And I think what happens is sometimes with people is that they go, okay, I'm going to be a lawyer. So I'm going to go to university and I'm going to study law and then I'm going to become a lawyer. And here we go and do this. And they follow this pathway in life and they suddenly get to a certain age and they go, oh, I've just followed what my blueprint is and perhaps that's not right.

And it doesn't feel like I thought it would. Because you can't understand how something is until you get there. And, yeah, I totally agree with you that there's this notion, I used to be someone with a five-year plan. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and I used to be building my life around this hypothetical notion of what I would be like in five years. But then you get to that point in five years time and you're not that person that you imagined.

And it's much better to be fluid and to respond to opportunities as they arise. It's exactly that. But for some reason, we have these blueprints and we go like, well, this is what we need to follow. But in fact, your blueprint changes. You know, you spoke about how you got divorced. You would never thought when you were younger that you were going to get divorced and things like that. But you then suddenly realized that actually your life can change and you know you talked about being in new york suddenly you're in new york or suddenly you're here or suddenly you're writing

books or doing this podcast or doing these different things and you never realized that was ever going to happen and life and everyone who's listening who's in like a place where it's like you're in a rut or you're in a horrible situation or you don't really feel like your life is going to get better it really does change it can turn on six and you can be doing something completely different and that's the biggest struggle that I find with people with suicide and things like that and we spoke at the beginning is because it's an instant relief to a solvable situation and people feel that they're in this rut in life and they can never change but in your life does change.

It doesn't follow the blueprint that you perhaps wanted to or perhaps it is following. It can change in a heartbeat. And you can always find that blue sky if you really want to go and look for it. Have you experienced suicide in your life? I've had people that I know's parents who have committed suicide. One of my ex-girlfriend' dad committed suicide when I'd just broken up with her. And that was pretty miserable and pretty horrible. Because of my anxiety and because of the things that I felt like that, I understand how people can get to

a certain place where they feel like there's no hope. And that's really upsetting because it's just about going out there and actually getting help and doing those kind of things so I really understand it having had this divorce and this fear of abandonment I then went and had a lot of therapy I decided to go and do therapy so I did two and a half years and so I became incredibly self-aware and understanding who I was and other people and so I really understand the struggles that people can go through in life I think. Let's talk about your third failure which this sounds, because I'm about to say I'm really glad that you're discussing it. Because I'm going to quote you here. This is the email that you sent

me. And your third failing is 30 years old, and haven't been able to cement a strong romantic relationship. Jamie Lang. Because it's one of the things that as someone who watches made in chelsea i always really want for you and i'm always rooting for you and i don't understand myself why it goes i mean heloise seemed so great yeah she was she was amazing i feel like i'm just moping on this podcast no you're not at all you're basically saying as long as you're breathing, there's still hope in life. Yeah, completely.

Which is a beautiful sentiment and absolutely the opposite of moping. Yeah. And I'm really interested because you are so self-aware and because you did experience your parents' divorce at eight years old, how that had a knock-on effect

for your romantic relationships. It's totally my fault. I mean, completely, right? That our relationships haven't worked because I've been in relationships where they perhaps they haven't worked we haven't been compatible but I've been in relationships where my partner has loved me so much and have been in all of the girls that I have dated bar maybe a couple they probably think I'm awful but maybe because we didn't work they have been amazing people incredible women I grew up in the household of three sisters and a really strong mum and so I find female company actually more enjoyable than male company I just really love girls and hugely protective over women

in that way and so I admire girls and things like that and I and I like can I ask you to call them women yes that's just a personal preference. Of course. I admire women. The reason why I haven't been able to hold down a relationship is because I think I'm a little bit selfish. I'm so driven in life that I go, right, I need to achieve this and do this and do those kind of things. Because I have this problem with wanting everyone to love me. So when you're in a relationship,

you know, it's about you guys as a bond here we go but I then worry that if I go into a relationship with a girl I then don't see my friends as much and if I don't see my friends as much then they may not like me as much and so therefore I become worried and so therefore I then start to see my friends more which means I neglect my relationships and I just haven't been able yet to find someone who probably accepts me for being me. And I have a lot of faults and a lot of flaws and things like that. What's your worst fault in a relationship?

I wish I knew. My biggest fault in my relationship is that I want to always do what I want to do. And you can't be selfish in a relationship. And I think that's the reason why it hasn't worked is because I just have been too selfish. And so what happens is, is that my partners and the women in my life get upset with me. And then because they get upset with me, I go, well, this isn't working. And I sort of end it. And I've loved a lot of people and I end up messing it up for some reason. It's not cheating or things like that. I mess it up because I push them away and then they get fed up and go. But you have cheated in the past. Yeah, I have cheated in the past. Is that

in your past? Totally in my past. So I joined a TV show when I was 21 years old. I was single, 22 years old. And we gained some sort of fame whatever that was and I met an amazing girl while doing this tv show and what happened was is that she didn't do the tv show she did one scene and hated it never wanted to do it but also I was having people you know going to clubs and different things and having girls throw themselves and I thought well this is amazing I was like oh my god all these people fancy me and it's great they didn't fancy me at all I mean I was you know some didn't fancy at all but it became almost a situation where I then ended up cheating because I wasn't thinking about the other person's emotions

and what happened was that is that you're then left with immense guilt and I remember this one time and I won't say who but the person she'll know who it is but I remember she found out I cheated and we broke up and I was about 24 at the time and I was so and I tried to get her back tried to get her back tried to get her back tried to get her back and she wouldn't give me my phone during the entire time and this is actually really upsetting I remember one I woke up one morning and there was a missed call from her on my phone it was first time we hadn't spoken in four months and I tried to phone back and not a word and so for two months I slept with iPod headphones in my ears to connect to the phones if it rang I would hear it I hoping that she would call but from that moment on and having

had that break and dealing with that guilt and seeing someone that I really love so upset because of me, I then was like, well, I can never do that ever again. And it's so funny because coming from a family of divorce and cheating and things like that, why would I then go and copy that? It was bizarre. And I then had to look at myself and go, what have I done? And it was just all about being validated. I thought, God, if I go and sleep with people, it's going to make me really cool. And it was just all about being validated. I thought, God, if I go and sleep with people, it's going to make me really cool. And people are going to really like me and think I'm really awesome. But in fact, you just look like a dick. I think you're totally right, though. I think it all stems from the same thing. It's that fear of abandonment. It is exactly that. So you're like

shoring up all of these people. Yeah. And you're a romantic at heart I'm guessing completely I love love love is amazing right have you ever cheated or been cheated on is that too deep a question Jamie that is such a deep question and I'm glad that you asked it I have cheated and I've been cheated on and what's worse well being cheated on you have the moral high ground which gives you fuel to get through the anger and the grief and the distress and the anti-validation you get from that because you're suddenly like oh I failed to be the person that this person wants to be and I thought we were in a relationship but I completely agree with you when I say I cheated I kissed someone else when I was in a relationship with someone and I felt so guilty I was like I can

never ever do this again horrible it's absolutely hideous and this was like these were relationships in my 20s like yours and on one level it's not that serious on another level it completely messed up my own sense of self because I consider myself a very loyal person and someone you can trust and I was like I just can't how did that happen and that's why I can completely relate to you because I know why it happened because there was another person paying the attention and saying things to me that made me feel seen and validated and loved and I wasn't getting that from the relationship I was in. Oh, God. And breathe. I have never admitted that out loud.

Have you not? No, never. But it feels better when you... It really does. Thank you. But Elizabeth, I think with you, the difference with you is that you, perhaps wrongly or rightly,

you find a reason for it. And, you know, your reason is because you felt that you weren't getting attention from the right place, and so you went out there to find that, and someone gave you the attention. You went and did it. Mine was just purely just validation, which is not really purely just because I thought

it would make me fun and cool and all these different things. But in fact, it really didn't. And so I was just left with guilt. And I still think if I look back and think about the time of my ex-girlfriend and her finding out I cheated on her and her whole world crushing. God, it makes my heart just turn because I can never change that. You can never change it.

And that's the kind of upsetting thing, I suppose. Actually, and you're totally right. Sorry, Jamie, because you are totally right. What I did there when I admitted that to you was I said... You're finding a reason for why you did it. Yeah, I found a reason that was external to me. Like, I wasn't getting the love that I wanted.

But actually, you're completely right that it was internally motivated and I needed to look at something I really disliked about myself and handle that. Yeah. Thank you for pointing that out. I feel like you're being an amazing therapist to me right now.

You're being an amazing therapist. I love the sitting and talking. God, I'm so sorry to the listener that you just have to hear me ramble for so long about my poor life. No, it's amazing. Maybe you're still in love with Lucy Watson. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. With Eloise, yeah.

We broke up. I haven't told that to anyone yet. So you're the first to know that. Oh, God, Jamie. I'm so sad about that because it felt like such a she was amazing natural pairing yeah it's it's me because I she really did seem to accept you for who you were I'm basing all this on what she made in Chelsea she she is so it's a to listen if no one's watched main Chelsea Eloise was a girl that I met she's a French American girl from a beautiful family, very beautiful herself, inside and out,

and all these other things. 19, but seemed older in terms of her wisdom and maturity levels. But her sense of fun matched yours. Her sense of fun matched mine, all those different things, and she was great. However, she was 19 years old, I was 29, and we're 10 years apart, so I'm 30, she was 20. And the problem with that relationship was, as much as she was way we're 10 years apart so I'm 30 she was 20 and the problem with

that relationship was as much as she was way more mature than me in so many ways she hadn't experienced life and so when you're again 89 20 all these things you're experiencing anything for the first time you're experiencing someone being mean to you or you're experiencing someone not being rejected from a job or I'm 30 I've experienced all those things a million times you're like sorry why are you upset with this so I couldn't quite connect on that level but that was one flaw that was one thing and I remember saying to my friend Georgie LaRue who actually connected who is lovely Georgie who will be listening to this podcast and and she is just she's been my absolute best friend for so many years she's unbelievable I said to her I can wait for these

cracks in our relationship to be cemented and her to experience life and all these different things or I can end it now and I chose to end it but I probably regret that but there's no going back now so I sort of don't think things through a lot of the time romantically but I think you're following your instinct which is a good thing and although you say there's no way back there's definitely no way back to the relationship that you had yeah but that's a good thing as well as a sad thing it's a good thing because you could always go back out and have a completely different and completely new relationship. Yeah, yeah, yeah. With this, yeah.

But I'm so jealous of people who, I look at my brother, for example, who's in just the happiest relationship. And he loves his wife. And they just had a new baby. And I'm like, God, that's so sweet. That's what I want. But why can't I, as a part of me, I always think that perhaps there might be something more, there might be something this, or there might, the grass might be green. It never is. It never is at all. But there's always a part of me which thinks that way. And somehow I need to

just allow myself to not do that. Because the ultimate thing into life is to have that family and those kinds of things, in my opinion, and all those kind of things and forget everything else but to have that is what I really want my mum always says the person who gives you your children and you be with your love to the end and so I just have to wait until that happens I think it's an interesting phase of your life that you're in I'm talking like I'm 85. We're the same age. I mean we're not I'm 10 years older than you but I remember turning 30 and I remember in my 20s thinking that I knew what being in love was and in one respect I did but in another respect I think I was addicted to the adrenalized moments I was like addicted to that dance that you have at the beginning where you're not quite sure and someone's chasing you

or you're chasing them and you don't know if they're going to text. And actually it was exhausting and I wasn't addicted to it in a good way. And I was mistaking that for love. And actually love, I realize now, is about contentment, but in the most beautiful way in the way that it's like you find your rock and you're with them and it's not about crashing tidal waves of will they won't they it's this much more beautiful solid thing yeah and so I think maybe love might come for you in an unexpected package well can you find that yeah I'm so delighted I love matchmaking but where are you looking for your women well to be honest this is the thing so I've always looked for love in friendship or in women or things like that I've

always so I've always gone I got my friends so I need to be around my friends or in a relationship I need to be in a relationship so I find these women and go into a relationship with them. But in fact, you have to be incredibly happy with yourself and content with yourself before you can be content with someone else. But do you believe in love at first sight? You do? I believe in connection at first sight. Yes, I believe in that.

But do you believe that you can meet someone, fall in love with them, and then just be a Disney story ending? I don't think it's as easy as that. But I do think you can meet someone, walk into a bar, as I did, have an immediate connection, and it be so unexpected. Like, I wasn't expecting that connection. Almost electric. Basically, I got divorced then I

had another long-term relationship for two years and that ended he ended it it was really brutal and I was devastated after that oh my god it's just horrible it's it's I remember it's horrible I've had it done when I was 16 years old the girl who I'm still really friendly with broke my heart as well and it is just there's a moment if you ever watched the movie Closer have you ever seen Closer with Natalie Portman and Jude Law it's an amazing movie there's a point right at the end

when Natalie Portman turns to Jude Law and says I don't love you anymore and you're like oh my god what it's the worst were you expecting it

or not expecting it I was not it was so brutally out of the blue you can read about it in my book because I don't it was so brutally out of the blue and You can read about it in my book because I do. It was so brutally out of the blue. And it was three weeks before my 39th birthday. And I, like you, had always wanted children.

And I was then left. It was just shock. I was in shock. And then I was in denial. And then I was in grief. And then I was angry. And then I was calm again. But it sent me into quite a dark place.

Yeah, yeah. And I started online dating. Did you? Yeah. And I had a series of really disappointing dates. As in Tinder? I never did Tinder, but I did Bumble. Did you?

Yes. I love that. And I did Hinge, which is now my favorite app in the world. Because I had a series of disappointing dates and they were difficult and dispiriting and online dating's really tough but it taught me so much about myself and about what I wanted and it taught me to know myself better and I realize now that it was a process and then on March 29th last year I walked into a bar such low expectations because it was another online date and it was this man who I had an immediate connection with and who is now my boyfriend that's amazing and it is amazing but it didn't come in the package that I expected

so it didn't come in that way that like romantic story way of oh we were just at this party and our eyes locked across the room or I tripped over his foot and it was so charming like it wasn't that it was literally the two of us had gone out to find the person we wanted to be with and we found each other and that's great and that's romantic in its own way that is romantic I got a friend called Joel Dommert who's a comedian a really lovely guy and he might have heard of him yeah yeah and he and he met his wife through Instagram and the problem is that he had I'm sure he'll be fine me saying this is that he always had the issue is that that can't be the story i wanted to have walked on the bus and knocked into her or or what we see in movies but in fact no he they both went out looking for each other and it's not a

rematch but he said i'm happy with that i'm content with that because that's our story and that's all that matters exactly and and it does and we're all so focused on success and these things and God and everything. We've got to be the most in love and we've got to find this Disney kind of story. But in fact, everyone's individual story is perfect in their own way, without a doubt. And the fact that you found your boyfriend on a date,

that's amazing for you because it's a story and that's what happened to you in life. Who cares if it was on, you didn't trip over him as you said and things like that doesn't matter one bit i don't think the fact that you found someone that you connect with and you're in love with that's the most amazing thing about it but i want to ask you do you want so weird about this podcast right is that i do my podcast private and things like that and i love people i always chat to people so i ask them questions yeah being asked questions is actually a weird totally it's a weird transfer it's a weird i find it odd because i'm thinking because what you do like you'll be doing is that when i'll be

talking to you'll be listening to exactly what i'm saying and you're so engaging but you'll also be thinking okay well how can i it's your thinking almost like chess. You're thinking ahead. With me, I'm talking about me, but also thinking ahead. It's like a bizarre, the way my mind works. I've literally never been asked so many questions on this podcast, other than the episode where I was interviewed in the first season. And I'm aware that we're massively overrunning, but I'm still loving it. I just want to ask you one thing. You said that you wanted children.

I think a lot of women, they have this fear that they get their clock and all these different things. Do you think the fact that you haven't had kids, is that a problem for you or not a problem for you? Or do you want to have kids later? How do you feel? I made that really awkward. It's an awkward thing to talk about and it shouldn't be,

so I'm really glad that you asked me. And I feel like what really upsets me is that women get to a certain age and go, I have to do this. No, no, you don't. And I understand biological, you know, sometimes it's not as easy to have kids, but you don't have to race to the finish to do it. Well, we're lucky that we live in times

when there are so many different ways to be a parent. But my personal situation was that I always thought I'd have children and I tried and I failed. And so I consider it to be one of my big failures in that it didn't happen for me naturally I had two cycles of IVF that were unsuccessful and then I got pregnant naturally and I had a miscarriage at three months and that all happened in one year when I was 35 and the following year my marriage broke down and it was intimately related to that and then for me it's been a

really long process coming to terms with the fact that I think now it's highly unlikely that I'll be a biological mother and I'm very sad about that but I'm also at peace with it and I realise that not having children has also led me up these interesting and unexpected paths. And I've loved that. And I'm also very liberated by the fact that I don't have responsibilities in that way. So I can just go to LA for a month if I want, and I can launch podcasts like on a whim and see what happens. And I'm very grateful for that. And I'm very grateful for the children that are in my life. So I've got nieces and godchildren. And my boyfriend has three amazing children. And so I feel very lucky in that respect. But it's a really interesting one, because I can talk fluently

about it. But there's also how I feel. And how I feel is still very emotional. I can see, I can see you're getting emotional but that but it is it's it's really hard and and again it's because what happens is is that we can go back to that blueprint where we go well this is what I wanted to have and I want to do these things and it's very upsetting when things don't go as you want them to but you have an amazing way of looking and you've done it in every single thing that I've seen you you talk, I've read about you and how you're with you now, is that you always look at the positive side of things. And it's very easy to go to the negative and be disappointed

and be upset about things. But you go, no, but it's a blessing that I have this and this and this. My business partner, a guy called Ed Williams, another rock in my life, he went to a talk with this girl who was on the first day of her new job. And she was late and ran into just getting on the tube. And the last thing this girl who was on the first day of her new job and she was late and ran to just get on the tube and the last thing she remembers is sitting on the tube and it was when the bombs went off and she woke up and she had lost both her legs and she was in a coma and all those kind of things and she gave this talk and she said that I could sit here and I

could complain and I could be upset about it but if that hadn't happened I wouldn't be sitting here and talking to all of you people in this room about my story and about life and how you look at the blessings. And it's sometimes really hard, but it's just a mental shift in your mind that you have to go, right, let's think positively about this. And I went through such a stage in life of going to the negative, oh my God, I'm not going to get that job. Or, oh my God, that person doesn't like me. Or, oh my God, I feel this way. But in fact, I went, well, what happens if I think I will get that job? Or I will do this? And that's what you do so beautifully is that you go,

yes, perhaps this hasn't happened for me. However, I have so many amazing things going on in my life. Children, work, flying to LA, being able to do podcasts, that it's such a great way to think and you should spread that as much as you possibly can. Oh, Jamie. God god this has been amazing i've loved this so much have i just rambled on about nonsense i was thinking about am i making sense you're making total are you sure how has it been for you how do you feel this podcast yeah oh

it's honestly you got the nomination congrats yes so did you yeah we both nominated podcast award nominations you fully deserve it um it's been, so did you. Yeah, we both nominated. British Podcast Award nominations. You fully deserve it. Ditto. It's been amazing. I told you, I'm so excited to come to this podcast. My friend Georgie was over the moon that I was doing it. It's a weird one because I'm used to leading a conversation

and talking to someone about their things. So for me to talk about myself, I find it quite odd and complicated because I perhaps don't know myself sometimes as well as I think I know myself. So when I start to talk about why has the relationship broken down, I go, well, actually, I don't perhaps know why, but I know it's about me. But it's been very enlightening and opening. And I think you're great. I think you're great. Thank you so much for coming on How to Fail, Jamie Lang. You've been an utter delight. Thank you so much.