How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S5, Ep5 How to Fail: Dame Kelly Holmes

Episode Date: July 24, 2019

I'm so delighted to welcome my first ever OLYMPIC ATHLETE onto the podcast this week. And not just any Olympic athlete, but double-gold medal winner, Kelly Holmes, who also just so happens to be my first DAME on How To Fail too.Dame Kelly joins me to talk about how her single mother was pressurised to give Kelly up for adoption as a baby and how she refused to do so, teaching her daughter about what it is to be truly strong. We also discuss Kelly's 'failure' at school and how she joined the army at 16 but then failed her first Physical Training Instructor selection (I mean, who would fail Kelly Holmes? Come on, now. Have you seen the size of her biceps?) She also talks openly about coming second in the 1995 World Championships because of her spiralling anxiety and discusses her ongoing mental health issues, including her diagnosis with clinical depression, her grief over her mother's death and [TW] her experiences of self-harm.For me, Dame Kelly epitomises the kind of empowerment that comes from being open about your own vulnerabilities. Her strength is forged through her resilience. As she puts it: 'You train for the outcome.' I know I use the word a lot in the context of this podcast, but Dame Kelly truly is inspiring in the most profound ways.[Trigger warning: this episode contains descriptions of self-harm]* I am thrilled to be taking How To Fail on tour around the UK in October, sharing my failure manifesto with the help of some very special guests. These events are not recorded as podcasts so the only way to be there is to book tickets via www.faneproductions.com/howtofail* The Sunday Times Top 5 bestselling book of the podcast, How To Fail: Everything I've Ever Learned From Things Going Wrong by Elizabeth Day, is out now and is available here.*How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted by Elizabeth Day, produced by Chris Sharp and Naomi Mantin and sponsored by Teatulia. To contact us, email [e-mail]* Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayKelly Holmes @damekellyholmesChris Sharp @chrissharpaudioNaomi Mantin @naomimantinTeatulia @TeatuliaUK   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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As something of a green tea snob myself, I have to say their jasmine has become a cupboard staple in my house this year. More importantly, they sell tea cocktails made with infusions from their tea, which are very delicious and I might add very, very strong. There are books for sale too with selections by Tilda Swinton, Jon Hamm, Lionel Shriver and well me. I picked 10 books that have been important to me and the whole list is for sale now. They also have an excellent online shop and are giving 20% off everything to you lovely listeners. Just go to titulia.com, that's T-E-A-T-U-L-I-A-B-A-R.com and enter howtofail, all one word, at checkout. Thank you very much to Titulia. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding

that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned from failure. Kelly Holmes is quite possibly the only person in the world who is a dame, an Olympian, and a colonel. She won the 800 and 1500 metre gold medals at the 2004 Athens Olympics, a feat still unmatched by any female British runner. She retired from professional athletics in 2005, was awarded a Damehood shortly afterwards,

and a few months ago was made an Honorary Colonel of the Royal Armoured Corps Training Regiment. It was an honour that took her back to her roots. After leaving school at 16, Dame Kelly joined the army at 18, where she became a physical training instructor. Even then, her athletic prowess was notable. She once competed in the men's race at the British Army Championships for fear she would embarrass the other female runners. But her victories did not come easily. Plagued for years with physical injuries, Dame Kelly has spoken openly about self-harming, her battle with mental health and her eventual diagnosis with clinical depression. I've been to the lowest point and to the highest point and everything in between, she has said. Earlier this year, she launched her own podcast, What Do I Do? Mental Health and Me,

in which she interviews high profile figures such as Davina McCall and Philip Pullman about how they cope with their personal battles. their personal battles. As Dame Kelly told The Guardian in March, it shows we can go through life and have struggles and still actually achieve. Dame Kelly Holmes, it is an honour to have you on How to Fail. Oh, thank you so much. I was listening to that thinking, wow. Is that me? I'm so thrilled for many reasons, partly because, as I mentioned there, a lot of what you're concerned with in your life fits in so perfectly to the themes of this podcast, that idea of struggling yet still achieving. And how much in your life do you think the struggles made the success sweeter? All of it, really, to be honest with you I think when you're going through the journey you don't really look at it in a way that this is a building block or something that's going to make you stronger you're just dealing with it on a day-to-day basis

and trying to get through those periods of time in the best way possible but then when you get to the end it's kind of like you just think wow I did it and I think for me more than anything the message I pass on about being proud of that achievement is more because I never gave up even through the hard times I kept pushing and the resilience that you have to have to go through a journey but to prove that you can still come out on top is the thing that I am probably most proud about talking about. And did you learn that resilience or is it a mindset that you were born with? That's a good question, isn't it? Because from a young age, I think I've always had that little bit of inner determination to prove to myself I could possibly be good at something. And then when

I had running as the probably tool that gave me the identity when I was a young person the purpose the sense of who I could be in life I think that it was just a natural part of me to go I want to do it good and I was always sort of this 100% or nothing person and attention to detail and please and thank you you know I was always cautious about how I was and what I did so I think that's kind of been the driver throughout. Now, you're my first athlete on the podcast and my first ever Olympian. And just because I'm super nosy, I want to know what it's like to win an Olympic medal, actually to stand on the platform or the podium.

I'm not a natural athlete. But to stand there and have a gold medal and to hear the national anthem, what's that like? Oh, it is incredible. I mean, the thing is, what people might not know is when I was 17, I won the mini youth Olympic Games in Holland for the 800 metres. And I'd had that experience then after being inspired at 14 to be Olympic champion. I won, standing on top of the rostrum with my gold medal around my neck

and the national anthem playing and the british flag flying and i thought to myself oh when did this come true when i'm grown up you know it was that sort of thing and then getting that moment you know a number of times for my career but the pinnacle being the olympic dream standing on top i don't think you can really probably articulate that emotion because you don't know whether to cry laugh you just don't know you know you're sort of there and it's just overwhelming and almost surreal yeah that's so funny that you say you don't know whether to cry or laugh because I imagine there is part of you which is like this is absolutely ridiculous yeah just wants to giggle because you want to sing the national anthem which you see

some of them go mad and but you're holding in your tears and I don't think I sang maybe in my head but you know normally I'll just be like you know God but on that occasion I think I was just so overwhelmed with emotion actually disbelief especially after winning the 800 which I never thought I would win I mean I never even had it in my psyche that I'd be Olympic 800 meter champion I just knew I was good at it and I could get medals and then the 1500 being sort of a 20-year dream let's say to then have that it was almost like maybe I'm just gonna wake up and I haven't actually done it yet you know it was that it's like extreme imposter syndrome yeah exactly And you were 34 when you won those medals. Which is, I mean, 34 is so young in any other context.

But as an athlete, that is a phenomenal achievement. Yeah, because I didn't get back into my international athletics until I was partway through my military career. I was sort of 23 when I went to my first world championships and 24 when I won my first gold medal. And actually that's quite sort of a bit of a later start into it. And I think having had a 10-year army career, I was very strong female, you know, I was just strong in everything, in my body, my soul, my kind of determination.

I think that really helped, certainly with the resilience side and that kind of I can push to the next level, which is what it takes when you're an athlete. You've got to push hard and you've got to push again and know where that line is and you never know where the fine line is between the injuries and the being good so there was that kind of overarching feeling of I learnt by experience and as you get older you start to look a little bit at yourself and I do motivational speaking I remember yesterday you know when you're going through something and you get to that other end and you're kind of thinking well you know I was 34 years old how did I manage to do it at that

age but it definitely is about experience and knowledge because I was in the race with a lot of younger people who hadn't had race tactics, weren't aware of the big stage, gone through the bad times with the nerves and messed up, all of those things. And I think it was just that year, first year in seven, not injured, great team around me,

had all the confidence that I always thought I could have and all the self-belief and it just happened to come off. I love that. That is such a beautiful metaphor, really, for the wisdom that age gives you in the rest of life. And that sweet spot between, as you say, self-knowledge and skill. Fascinating. Where do you keep your medals now? They're just wrapped up in a little bag, this little bag that I've nearly lost a number of times because it's in a black bag and you put it into your handbag and then you think you know you're scratching all the bag comes out yeah I just keep them in a little safe at the moment I feel like you know when I first came back from

Athens of course I was taking them everywhere everywhere and in fact the the most scary place I thought was going to be in a township in South Africa, because I go there, I've been living there. And I took them and I thought, oh, they could just literally run. And that is it. And the young kids over there can run, believe me. I mean, can they run faster than Dame Kelly Holmes? Yes. And this is like, the talent there is amazing.

You know, and I had in my head, okay, I'm still quite good here. But, you know, these kids are good runners. I was seeing them running around. Anyway, no, they were were what's the word you know when you're looking at something and you're feeling like all strong yeah and they just had to give it back to me you know I'm almost like they didn't dare sort of touch it anyway I went to a speaking engagement an evening event with adults who were all drunk one guy had gone off with my medal, came back sweating, literally sweat pouring off him like,

I'm so sorry I took your medal because everyone was looking for this medal and he came. I thought, here you go. Just shows you, doesn't it? A drunk adult. Yeah, a far black tie event. More unreliable than a young child that has nothing.

You've got them back now though and you're safely they're safely in your possession okay so your first failure is about your failure at school which is an interesting one in this context because I guess if you hadn't failed at school maybe you wouldn't have chosen the athletics path but tell me a bit about how you failed at school yeah so I was not the academic child at school at all. And I think back then, teaching young children in different ways. So I'm a very creative learner, visual learner. I need it painted in a picture, you know, like a puzzle. And when a French teacher's talking in French, trying to get you to reply in French,

and you have no idea what they're saying, you know, you might have a little bit of attitude because it's just like that. So I was outside that classroom more than I was ever in it. And that was almost how my life was in school. I went to school purely for my friends and for sports. And it was when I was 12, so early on, I noticed that I wasn't very academic and I just couldn't pay attention. It was my PE teacher who actually said to me, Kelly, get a grip. You know, you can actually be good at something. Look how you run. You know, you're beating the girls two years older than you and you can be good. But only if you, one, believe it and two, make the effort.

And she said, I want you to do this cross-country race, which I ended up doing. And I hated the cross-country. It was wet, you know the typical no thank you and I came second I was leading with 30 minutes to go and I never had that sort of pit in my stomach which I had where I felt I hated losing I mean it was just like this feeling that came over me and she got me to go to the athletics club and that's how I. That gave me the identity in school because everybody then wanted to be in my team. And Kelly was the great runner, and that made me feel good. But I just couldn't learn. I mean, design graphics was probably my best chance of getting an equivalent of an O level.

And I didn't hand in my last assignment because I was away running and competing because I'd actually started athletics very, very early on. And I was English schools champion within six months I've started at 1500 so that took over my life I used to literally bike to school three miles because I didn't have a bus bike to training bike back and that was my life and compete at weekends I didn't go out mates I enjoyed running and so for for me, looking now, I think, oh, I wish I had had a little bit more education because I'm learning on a back foot. It's not easy for me to read.

It's not, I was dyslexic, so it's not easy for me to read or just to apply things. And I've just learned different skills and with knowledge and I suppose experience and age again, you start to pick up things, don't you? Did you leave with any O-levels? No mean I didn't leave with um a lot I got ungraded csc for physics and I did turn around to teach and say did I not get a point for my name which didn't go down too well no I didn't get any o-levels I mean you could say I got three cscs but they were all like

low low apart from this design graphics which I got a two and if I got three CSEs, but they were all like low, low, apart from this design graphics, which I got a two. And if I got a one back then, because it was CSEs, so I'm old school. CSE was, and if you got a one, it would be equivalent of an O level. And I didn't, I got a two. And that was my highest level. So I left with nothing. And when were you told that you were dyslexic? Again, basically that time, no one would ever apply it was it so as I got older

and I went into the army and then I was doing entrance tests and tests for promotion that was when it was recognized because some words and things just couldn't come or couldn't put sentences together it was just sort of that it's a hard one isn't it because the thing is when you're young you should probably get diagnosed that and then there should be a support mechanism in place which I'm sure they do now. But back then it wasn't. It was just an understanding that you can't read very well and you're not a good writer.

But that has changed. You know, I'm different at that. Yeah, school wasn't great for me back then, to be honest with you. But I think I was a hard grafter. You know, I started working at 16. I was working in a nursing home for people with, as they called it back then, mentally handicapped. But obviously, as we know, disabilities and mental health problems. But I was working there when I was 16. in a nursing home for people with as they called it back then mentally handicapped but obviously

as we know disabilities and mental health problems but I was working there I was 16 you know in a men's unit literally looking after men washing men down cleaning men getting them dressed so my life was very much around learning very quickly and growing up very quickly and as you say the school system then was so much more blinkered, I think, to different ways of learning. Did it make you feel like a failure in that respect then? Oh, yeah, definitely. You know, when you're in the classroom and you really have no idea what they're talking about and you can't apply yourself, you feel really low because you just feel like you're totally stupid. I mean, that's what I always just thought. I'm just totally stupid.

I have no idea. Going through your whole school career, feeling like that all the time, isn't a great feeling. So that's why I gravitated to sport because it made me feel good and it empowered me because I was good at it and I could see progress, whereas I never saw any progress in school academically. So that was not a great time. I'm so pleased now that that has changed in the school system.

It used to drive me mad when people told me that school days were the best days of your life. I was like, if they're the best days, the rest of my life is not going to be great. And it's absolutely not true for me anyway. And I'm sure not for you. I'm sure you're relieved that you're not at school anymore. Yeah, I mean mean the thing is I

did like school but I liked it because I was going to see my friends because at that point especially starting athletics at a young age I didn't do anything after school apart from sport and go home and then you know sort of play as kids used to you know so I enjoyed that part of it and I did enjoy actually do you know what if I really think about it Duke of Edinburgh I loved because that was out and about and by then I'd sort of by 14 I'd started to be engaged with wanting to be in the army so going out camping was just brilliant you know and then I'd do the gardening for part of my community task and I'm such a perfectionist that that had to be perfect,

you know, so I'd bust the gut to kind of make sure I was doing everything as this woman wanted. So actually there's little things like that. And I did a community sport award and I passed that. So I did things that weren't in the normal curriculum well. Yeah, you found your way. Things outside, yeah. And have you met the Duke of Edinburgh now yes they do these things where you get asked to come and present the awards to the gold award winners so I've done that and I've met him a few times in the palace though I say and were

you able to say to him the Duke of Edinburgh award was really helpful for me oh yes yeah yeah definitely I did because it was and it still is for so many young people. You learn so many skills through that way. And I think for me, that's a really positive thing to have for youngsters as well. You know, I do believe that university is good for some. I didn't even know the word university when I was at school. So that's how far detached I was. But I also believe that society runs on having really brainy and top class people and doctors and surgeons and whatever. And also creative and influential people. I think, you know, the world is for everyone.

Yeah. Now, I'm really interested in the impact of strong women in your life because you mentioned your PE teacher there. Was she called Debbie? Yeah. And she was the first person you called after you won your medals in 2004, wasn't she? She was, yes. Isn't that a beautiful thing? It speaks so highly of you as a person that that's the first person you called after you won your medals in 2004 wasn't she she was yes isn't that a beautiful thing it speaks so highly of you as a person that that's the first person you called she had such an

impact on my life you know I always believe it takes one person to make a difference to somebody's life and that's what we do with the charity that I have it was her you know she was the one that looked me in the eye she was the one that encouraged me she was the one that saw my talent and pushed me to do it and was really pleased every time I did well and I just remember that and I think because that was the strongest part in my life as a young person then obviously that was something that I really valued so yes I called her she came on the bus of my open top bus and we're actually friends now so my best three friends in school who I actually um after watching the Olympics when I was 14 I went back to school and said to my best friends,

Kerry, Laura and Kim, I'm going to be Olympic champion. They said, yeah, you probably are because it's the only bloody thing you're good at, which was, that says it all. But they and Debbie are now some of my friends and we meet up every three to four months. Love that. Imagine.

I love that. The other very strong woman, it sounds to me like in your life was your mother. Can you tell us a bit about her? Because she had you when she was a teenager, didn't she? She did. So she had me when she was 17. So back in the 70s, it was a little bit taboo because she lived in Kent, white and white Kent, being of a mixed race background. Back then she became a single parent. So my granddad, her dad, said that she couldn't look after me until she could look after herself. So I went into a couple of care homes in Southborough, in Kent, whilst she tried to make some of her life.

But when I was younger, you know, she was in and out of mother and baby units. She had this one flat in London, but it was awful, disgusting. And then she tried to go home and she couldn't. So she put me in this care home and then she got a job. She used to be a diamond cutter and she had to leave that. And she got a job in Unigate, which was the milk place, which was opposite the care home. So she could come and sort of see me. So that took a while.

So I look back and I think, she must have been so strong because she actually told me the story eventually when I plucked up the courage to sort of ask a little bit about when I was doing my autobiography in 2005. I was kind of trying to think, I need a bit more history. And she said, yeah, some people came to adopt me and it was actually going to happen on this one day. And she went in, she said, I can't do it.

And she didn't sign the papers otherwise could be a whole new you know could have been a completely different life and I definitely wouldn't be Dame Kelly Holmes double Olympic champion you know to have that strength of character that young age you know in your late teens and early 20s and at that stage it could have been very easy to sort of go I need to have a bit of a life, but to not, I mean, wow. Wow. And so when did she get you back? Were you still a baby?

It became more stable when my stepdad, who I call my dad to this day, Mick, and they kind of got together. I was about nearly five, and that's when it became more stable. And then she eventually married him and had two of my brothers, Kevin and Stuart. Mother, I'm really sorry if you heard a phone there. We are recording in Tertulia, which is, they are our sponsors this season. And it's a lovely tea bar, but it is very nice that there's some background noise. Thank you so much for sharing that story because I just think what

a phenomenal testament to the kind of woman your mother was. Yeah definitely I think because she was only 17 years older than me that had the biggest impact on me when she passed away two years ago. I suffered badly with bereavement probably still just on the edge of coming out of it but um I think I really then sort of thought back about actually how strong she was and that piece because you know as you go through life you have the ups and downs of your parents and she was young and I have to remember how young she was at some of the times when we had a real fraught relationship she was only in her 30s or 40s and you forget that when you're the child don't you so it's only when she was only in her 30s or 40s and you forget that when you're the child don't you so it's only when she was going through the hell of having myeloma which is cancer of the blood

bone that you really think about how much somebody means to you and actually how much she was instrumental in my life you know and then you think god it's only 17 years older than me geez what's gonna happen you know you start to worry then, don't you? And you shouldn't because different people have different lives. But it was a real tough time. Yeah, it's been tough. I'm so sorry for your loss. Thank you for speaking also about bereavement

and about the fact that your mother passed away two years ago and you feel that you're only just maybe coming out of the bereavement process now the initial part of it yeah I mean I just don't know if you actually are because you know last night I won an award for my book and I feel really emotional about it because I can't tell her she was part of it oh Kelly I feel like she's listening now maybe Maybe I haven't. It's so moving. And as you say, what a close bond with a mother who's 17 years older than you and how incredibly special and what an amazing testament you are, your existence is to her. So I feel like she lives on through your myriad achievements.

Yes, we hope so. You know, she's always there, isn't she? Congratulations on the award. Thank you, yeah. Shall we move on to your second failure, you know, she's always there, isn't she? Congratulations on the award. Thank you, yeah. Shall we move on to your second failure, which is, it's so interesting this because for so many of us, you are the absolute epitome of the most visible kind of success in our society. And I'm so fascinated by which failures you've chosen.

And this one clearly still sticks with you, the second one. And it's that you failed your first selection to be a PTI in the army yeah and why do you think that one is still with you now as a failure oh so gutted I really was because when I was 14 as well I wanted to be in the army as a physical training instructor then when I joined the army or went to join the army I didn't have many choices because I hadn't had much education and the course that I wanted to go on the physical training course was full so I joined as a heavy goods vehicle driver I then tried to transition while I was in the army and I went for my first

selection and the first thing they said to me is you're a great runner but you can't do anything else so I couldn't catch a ball which is still very debatable these days and different sports and working in a team I was so used to just doing my thing and working in a team was hell you know kind of just and I'd only just passed my entrance test swimming by dog paddling 25 meters because the criteria was to do 25 meters I didn't say what stroke oh yeah didn't say what stroke I was desperate to get in this when I was 18 so then when I went for my PTIs of course I hadn't really thought of the fact that I needed to upskill myself into what it would take to be a PTI and they teach you to shout from your stomach rather than your throat and I was like you know this whole screaming

across and they were going no you gotta go you know it's gotta be like a different I was like oh and I failed and I was so upset I was so distraught because that's all I wanted to be since I was 14 but what it did I think this is kind of how I always flip things I thought okay you think I can't be good I'm going to prove I can so I put myself on every single course you can imagine I became a coach and umpire for every sport that you can ever imagine I went and did my bronze medallion I mean how I did that I do not know but I did my bronze medallion I just learned more around applying myself and kind of being that forceful instructor but also a leader and a guide and I just thought no you're not going to fail me the next time and when I went the second time I was the top student amazing but because of the

failure it was because I felt so gutted about it I think sometimes when you fail you shouldn't just feel negative and think oh whatever you should feel gutted if it's something you really want because if you feel gutted it means something to you if you feel negative it's almost like well you didn't bother anyway you're not really caring so I felt no I was so distraught and I thought no I'm not going to let you put me down I'm going to prove because that's so I felt no I was so distraught and I thought no I'm not going to let you put me down I'm going to prove because that's what I want and it was the best thing because it drove me to fight. I totally agree with you that idea of failure is motivation and it's interesting to me that you came second in that cross-country race as well as a 12 year

old and that was the thing that motivated you to to win and I think you're totally right that being really upset about something that you've tried your best to do and I think you're totally right that being really upset about something that you've tried your best to do and that hasn't gone right for you is absolutely okay that you should embrace that feeling because it's taught you something about what you want and what you want to do next I completely agree with you so you aced the second time now tell me because I'm interested about how much of being physically fit is about other things other than exercise. How much is it about food and how much is it about sleep and stuff like that? It's all about all of those things, I think.

You know, when you're an elite athlete, of course, it's very different because everything is about minute detail. And food, nutrition has a massive part to play in your performance, which I didn't always get right. I was a very emotional eater. Were you? Yes. part to pay in your performance which I didn't always get right I was a very emotional eater yes fluctuated in my weight so many times and people don't really see that until they see the pictures that I'm posting now and it's like you could see when I was having injuries and down times and when I was on ups and what kind of emotional eating would you do chocolate not really caring about when I ate not recovering properly you, the window 20 to 30 minutes window of repair and recovery. I just wasn't bothered with it. You know, it's kind of those sort of things where actually eating effectively to recover from a hard training session to get ready for the next one is

like a real crucial thing in your dietary needs as a performer. And what's the window, sorry, the 20 to 30 minutes. So within 20 to 30 minutes after finishing exercise you should consume something that has protein and carbs it's that window for repair and recovery if you miss that even if you eat your dinner an hour two hours late it's too late that's so interesting yeah is that even the case if you're just a normal person you go to the gym yeah and does that mean that your body can process it more quickly yes yeah that's right don't want to get too technical no i'm fascinated yeah no it's just that it's basically there's a window for repair so the muscle damage that you do which everyone will do whether you pick up weights whether you run and feet and then the

energy that you're expelling so you're kind of like exchange stores and you need to replace those if you are somebody that wants to keep fit and start to progress but most people either can't eat straight away after exercise because they feel sick or think that they've got dinner so that's okay later on but then they overeat and eat different things so actually that's the repair time after that doesn't matter whether you eat two three hours later but if you're serious about changes and gains through physical performance then that's an optimal window fascinating so when you were not caring about that and you were emotional eating how else were you failing to look after yourself not sleeping properly definitely i'm a bad sleeper anyway but even as an international athlete that was a a problem. Not thinking of the rehab, I was going to physio, I was having massage. You know, in my brain, I feel like I'm talking two different things, because one, as an international athlete, it's a very different mindset and approach to what I am now, is somebody trying to keep fit, stay healthy, be strong, both mentally and

physically. So there's slightly two different angles that I always sort of find myself entwining a little bit. So from an international athlete point of view, it was always about performance, high level performance. And the only way I was ever going to be good is stay injury free and stay healthy. But you push your body to such an extreme and extent that you don't really know how hard you're pushing because there's no real line that that was your limit because you're always trying to get gains. and down and low even though mentally I was still focused on what I was trying to achieve you end up kind of instead of the pat on the back and the congratulating yourself that you've got through something you always look at a negative and you go I can't and it's all going wrong and you have those little moments where you just have self-doubt but you don't really say it because you want to still be strong and positive and your food and your attitudes and

behaviors really make a difference and so some of the times that I got injuries I definitely probably either shouldn't have got the injury or could have gone back slightly quicker because if you let yourself down nutritionally you're going to put on maybe extra weight or lose weight whatever might not be conducive to the training that you need to do to stay strong yeah I mean now in the life we lead I still think that food is a big part of people's approach if they want to make critical changes so they want to lose weight they want to tone up they want to get stronger they want to get fitter they want to feel better because it obviously will have a correlation but I'm not strict on it anymore because actually I enjoy life. I like my G&Ts. I like my curry on a weekend and my chocolate. But if I want to train well and train hard and get

a gain, then I have to have a little bit of psychology into me to say, do you know what, eat properly then. Yeah. So it's sort of goal oriented. Yeah. But take me back to the times when you were struggling with injury and you were in that cycle of self-doubt because at the time that you spoke out about your self-harm barely anyone was talking about mental health and I'm thrilled that it's become a much more public conversation but that was so brave of you to do that at the time and I just wonder if I can take you back there and if you could describe the kind of self-harm cycle you were in yeah so from 1996 my first olympic games where i ran with a stress fracture coming forth up till 2003 i'd had rupture

calves torn achilles glandular fever tonsillitis everything in my career yet i'd still come out and fought and got to championships maybe not won medals or won medals 2003 it was a year before my last olympic games so it would have been my third Olympic Games. I'd got a bronze in Sydney. I was going to be 34. So it was almost like, I know that's my last Games. Put a huge amount of pressure on myself to reach my full potential because I had always been there and always been either number one, two or three in the world at different stages, but I'd never quite achieved what I wanted and in 2003 I'd got another nigger I was getting ready for the Paris world championships and I think

it was just that I'd had so many impacts that I hadn't really recognized as an emotional impact other than emotion because of pain so you go to see a physio and you go and see the doctor and they're treating an injury or a cause and that's what they're doing but you don't really reflect on how that's making you feel and the thoughts of not ever achieving and that you know it's like a something twining in you like am I ever going to do this and that year it just hit me like you can call it a black hole a black dog a bolt of lightning anything whatever people describe it hit me so bad that I hated everything about myself at that point in time 2003 and I was training in France so I went back to my apartment

I didn't know what to do I was just in a state I was in my coach in my one of my training partners was sort of outside and I was putting on the tats and I was screaming inside me and I looked in the mirror and I just hated it I'd hated everything and I wanted a hole to literally open up and I looked in the mirror and I just hated it. I'd hated everything and I wanted a hole to literally open up and I wanted to jump in it, I wanted it to close. I just didn't want to be there. And I saw these scissors on the side and I just started to self-harm for every day that I'd been injured. I mean, how I didn't try to do something worse than that,

I think, was that stop point where I still had a dream. I know it sounds so bad, but I still had such a dream that that was a stop point. But I just caught myself and you only have crop tops and shorts. There's not that many places to do it. And a couple of places I did do it, I had to cover it up with makeup. But no one knew that I was feeling like that or going through it. So I was having to go back out pretending nothing was wrong.

And then still being an athlete, getting ready for the world championships. And it was such a pull because there was I was emotional wreck and not wanting to exist and yet I did because I wanted to achieve so you're having that battle in your head and so anyway obviously 2004 happened and 2005 I wrote my autobiography and I was trying to think what do I write do I write just about athletics and I thought well that's a bit boring for people that aren't interested in athletics. Do I write about life? So I ended up writing about my journey to the top with being in the home and the army and everything,

life story, to hopefully show people that you can still be successful no matter what. And it was obviously a bit of a shock because I never told my mum. I didn't tell my parents, my family, no one. I just wrote in the book and at that time it was on the front of I think possibly the mirror is a world but after that it was just like you know the old analogy of fish and chip paper it was just that you know

because no one was talking about it at all people started going you know there's weird comments I do remember one comment I won't mention the radio presenter said oh she's not as invincible as we thought she was because I had come out with that and in my head when I heard that that had come out it made me talk more about it because I thought how dare you put somebody down that struggled and got to the top and then dismissed their high achievements because they've got an emotional problem and actually that made me stronger to start talking about it but of course it's only really over the last few years that we are able to talk more no one was really asking me much about it it did at the time of course like anything because suddenly it's like

oh my god you know Kelly himself oh and so what's this ah it's like now that my God, you know, Kelly himself, so what's this? It's like now that it's becoming, you know, a lot more less taboo and stop the stigmatism and we can talk freely and openly, which we should. Is it something that ever leaves you or do you still have a compulsion that you fight with? Yeah, yes, I do. I don't think when you've had such a big impact, which I did, especially with depression, I don't think you ever've had such a big impact, which I did, especially with depression, I don't think you ever, ever get rid of it completely. But I think you learn how to deal with certain situations and you learn when you're getting a bit too towards being low and that low is that making you into being anxious and then not wanting to necessarily get out of bed or to

have energy. And I can see those signs because I've learned to deal with it. And as I talk about it and get to know more about mental health, it allows me to also recognize those signs because they're what I pass on to people. I have self-harm since then. I have, but it's been different periods and impacts in my life that have caused it. And then the last time that I actually did it was,

well, when my mom died. But then at that time, straight away, I thought, this isn't going to solve it. It's not going to bring her back. It's not going to make it solve anything. And I haven't since then because I realised that that isn't the answer to the pain. It's not the answer. So I now know how to manage it. And it's not a natural thought in my head to do anything to

myself I just learned to deal with time alone and having me time and recognizing signs when I'm tired and run down and need time off to combat getting into that place and for anyone listening now who might really relate to this story and who is in a current struggle what advice would you give them about the help that they should seek first and foremost I really advocate talking to somebody close to you we all have a really close person be it that a family member a partner or maybe not them a friend we all have somebody that actually if we were not to tell them they found out they would go why didn't you tell me I would be there for you and I think people need to look at that and be truthful with themselves who they know wouldn't judge them or wouldn't go you know freak out they would just go thank you

for telling me or help you through that process and then obviously after that there is a point that some people need to seek professional help go go to the doctor, talk about the problems and be sort of seen. And then obviously there's another side that that doctor then might say you need to see a psychotherapist or a psychologist. But I think in the immediate term, it's about being okay to open up. You know, if you're in the workplace now, I know because I do motivational speaking and talks, mental health awareness talks in the workplace, is that they are starting to cut the stigmatism.

And that is okay to say that you're not okay. And that actually by doing that, it alleviates that pressure and you can actually be you a little bit more. And also fitness, physical fitness. I can't advocate that enough to get out be active get the brain clear I run to the lake where my mum's bench is now it's four and a half miles from my house I sit on the bench have a photo of my feet have a little chat and then I run back and that's a nice piece for me that I'm not running for a gain I'm running for my head and I make sure that I do that and I think it's so important that people do I also think as you were talking there I was just thinking that what makes you the wonderful special

strong person you are is all of this stuff your whole self is your strongest self and I think that's such a wonderful thing for people to hear so thank you for talking about it so openly. I'm going to take you back in time now for your third failure, which is actually, this is an interesting one because we've been talking about sort of physical injuries, but this was a time when you won silver at the World Championships in 1995, but it was because of nerves. And I think that that's something that a lot of the time we don't consider that athletes have to deal with,

but it must be so nerve wracking. Yeah, it is. I mean, it is. I don't think it doesn't matter whether you're doing a part-run couch to 5K or going to do Olympic Games. It really doesn't matter. Nerves, if they hit you, they hit you.

And learning to control them is obviously something that people need to do. And this example is actually, I'd, 94, I'd won the Commonwealth Games gold, European silver medal, still serving in the military, went to the world champs, all high hopes, and should have won a gold medal in the 1500 meters

because I was number one in the world, all these things. Yeah. So generally, and what I've learned since is I prepare all my stuff beforehand. Anything I'm going to talk about the race, tactics, awareness with my coaches is done way before. And then all I've got to worry about on the day is getting to the track, warming up up just getting on the start line and running quite simple you know the process but no oh my gosh I was so nervous the night before and I woke up in the morning I was thinking looking at my watch I think 10 hours it'll be over nine hours seven hours I was going through the whole day then I tried to get a magazine all I could see is a track and me running around it and my head was thinking like I can't get away from this pressure you know the track and then I was looking and it was like three hours two hours then I go to the

stadium and I was thinking one hour warm up walked into the stage and looked at the clock four minutes they'd be over started the race I was looking at the lap counter three laps two laps one lap got to 200 meters tried to go and I had nothing. I had nothing. And my biggest rival, Hasabun Merka, just took that edge because at that time when I'm just thinking, you know, it's going to be over, blah, blah, blah, she went. And tactically, I didn't go with her. And I was distraught. I mean, one minute, you know, I could talk to you about all of my medals where silver has been like gold or bronze has been like gold it's like amazing but I was so disappointed in myself and I've never done it since and I learned that you have to remember that you're trained for the outcome right whatever it is we do especially in sport or anything really in life going to do a presentation or whatever you've done all the prep

and then actually it's just a process it's just in a bigger stadium or a bigger platform to do it it's no different to everything you'd normally do having gone through that and just been exhausted and emotional I thought I can't do this to myself I'd also entered the 800 meters as well so I was trying to pick myself up and I remember after the 1500 meters sitting on this I was trying to pick myself up and I remember after the 1500 meters sitting on this little platform in the press you know what the media are like and they're saying there was a I think it was a Mercedes car or something like that was sitting there for the winner and this one guy said to me oh are you gutted that you've lost the Mercedes I thought I thought I could have punched him you know when you just like you know what I mean

that's just like that you, I'm distraught. I haven't won the gold medal. He's worried about that. And I thought I was so fired up. But I wasn't really an 800-meter at that stage. I just happened to qualify. And anyway, I came back and I ended up getting a bronze. And that bronze meant so much more than the silver.

It felt like a gold because, one, it was like two things up. Yeah, I can still do this and I know it sounds weird but sometimes you have to get a angle of fighting you sometimes to prove to yourself you know what I mean yeah so just sometimes there has to be a little bit of why you're doing it yeah and that's the lesson of each one of your failures actually I've just realized yes that you had the failure and then it gave you the the motivation to succeed oh gosh that's brilliant hold on where's the failure but it feels to me as well as if there's a lesson in that failure about two things one is being present and not unspooling a narrative about what's going to happen in nine hours time

and the other one is about expectation and really trying not to live with expectation and trying to be very much in the moment which are very hard things to do but that's what buddhism is all about kids but it's interesting that that's a philosophy thousands of years old that clearly has some resonance yeah I think you're right I mean as you were saying that I was thinking yeah you're actually right because in Athens and other times in my career where I've done what seemed to be the unthinkable, I was totally in the moment, totally in the zone. I was in that presence. I was here, now, and that's all that matters.

And that's when I got it really right. And the ones where I have that woo-woo type, you know, your head's going everywhere, you don't even focus on yourself you just see everybody else and whatever and then suddenly you wake up it's not a good place um dame kelly holmes final question what is it like now when you go to the gym just the normal gym do you get recognized or when you're on your runs what happens when people recognize you yeah i get toots out on the runs yeah people, people in the gym, I mean, most people are sort of getting on with their bit. I never see anyone stand on the treadmill next to me.

Can you imagine if Dame Kelly-Opens is in your gym? I'm out of there. I'm on the rowing machine. I'm not on the treadmill. No, no, no, no. I really, like, encourage people. I get a little bit too involved because if I see someone doing some really bad technique, I go, oh, I don't mean to be like thing but just maybe try this because I feel like they're

going to break the back or something you know when you see somebody that's not I just like to help people be better than themselves but generally I'm in there do my session and sometimes it's hard sometimes it's you know it's always productive I always do it for a reason but yeah I just enjoy keeping fit now and I like encouraging other people to keep fit because I think it's always productive I always do it for a reason but yeah I just enjoy keeping fit now and I like encouraging other people to keep fit because I think it's great for mind and body and I'm trying to work out how old you are because you look 25 you look like Mel B's younger sister I mean yeah this way next year is complete commiseration I'm gonna hide I'm not even gonna be in the country I'm gonna do something so weird because justeration. I'm going to hide. I'm not even going to be in the country.

I'm going to do something so weird because just because, because I'm going to be the big that next year. 50. No. Sorry, I said that out loud. I'm not that yet. Okay, so I'm the other one,

the one with the four. What a fantastic advertisement you are for strength and beauty and self-knowledge. And honestly, I just think it's fantastic. That's why I've got the undercut, just so I can, you know, the age thing. You look younger now than when you won your medals. You're like Benjamin Button.

Do you know what? I actually agree. And I said to someone the other day, I said, I love that film, but I want to be Benjamin Button. I've got too much to live for. I've got too much to do and to encourage and motivate other people.

I don't want to be old and out of it. You're not. You never will be. You don't have that energy. Dame Kelly Holmes, it has been a privilege and an honour. Thank you so much for such a moving and eloquent interview. Thank you. Thank you so much. If you enjoyed this episode of How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, I would so appreciate it if you could rate, review and subscribe. Apparently it helps other people know that we exist.