How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S5, Ep7 How to Fail: Meera Syal

Episode Date: August 7, 2019

This week, I welcome the multi-talented Meera Syal to the podcast: actor, comedian, playwright, novelist, producer and, most notably, sister-of-my-friend-Rajeev. Meera first came to prominence when she co-wrote and starred in the award-winning BBC comedy series Goodness Gracious Me and was Bafta-nominated for her later role in The Kumars at Number 42. She, along with her husband Sanjeev Bhaskar, almost single-handedly reinvented British-Asian comedy, taking it from the stereotypical and lazy racist tropes of old and bringing it brilliantly into the mainstream (I mean, who can forget the hilarious 'Going for an English' sketch? If you haven't seen it, YouTube it now).Meera joins me to talk about failing at maths (and having a bigoted teacher), failing to live up to her parents' expectations of her, failing at auditions (and hating them), failing to raise her second child how she wanted and instead getting obsessed with a rigid regime rather than following her own maternal instincts. Along the way, we discuss ageing, race, school, womanhood, ice-cream vans and embarrassing smear tests. Yes, really.*I am thrilled to be taking How To Fail on tour around the UK in October, sharing my failure manifesto with the help of some very special guests. These events are not recorded as podcasts so the only way to be there is to book tickets via www.faneproductions.com/howtofail* The Sunday Times Top 5 bestselling book of the podcast, How To Fail: Everything I've Ever Learned From Things Going Wrong by Elizabeth Day, is out now and is available here.*How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted by Elizabeth Day, produced by Chris Sharp and Naomi Mantin and sponsored by Teatulia. To contact us, email [e-mail]* Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayMeera Syal @meerasyalChris Sharp @chrissharpaudioNaomi Mantin @naomimantinTeatulia @TeatuliaUK   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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As something of a green tea snob myself, I have to say their jasmine has become a cupboard staple in my house this year. More importantly, they sell tea cocktails made with infusions from their tea, which are very delicious and I might add very, very strong. There are books for sale too with selections by Tilda Swinton, Jon Hamm, Lionel Shriver and well me. I picked 10 books that have been important to me and the whole list is for sale now. They also have an excellent online shop and are giving 20% off everything to you lovely listeners. Just go to titulia.com, that's T-E-A-T-U-L-I-A-B-A-R.com and enter howtofail, all one word, at checkout. Thank you very much to Titulia. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day,

the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned from failure. Meera Sayal is the original multi-hyphenate. A comedian, writer, playwright, singer, journalist, producer and actress, she came to prominence when she co-wrote and starred in the award-winning BBC comedy series Goodness Gracious Me, and was BAFTA nominated for her later role in The Kumars at number 42. But she's also a critically acclaimed novelist. Her first book, Anita and Me, was loosely based on her own childhood growing up in a mining village near Wolverhampton to Punjabi parents.

growing up in a mining village near Wolverhampton to Punjabi parents. It tells the story of the exuberant Meena and her best friend Anita, and takes place against the backdrop of rising racial tension in the 1960s. When asked what she wants to be when she grows up, Meena replies, blonde. The novel is now a GCSE set text and was adapted for the screen by Sayal herself. More recently, Sayal has starred in the BBC series The Split and Paddington 2. She's married to the actor Sanjeev Bhaskar, has two children, and when asked by The Guardian what the most important lesson life had taught her was, replied, Roll with the changes, because that's what life's about. In the same

interview, she also confessed that her most embarrassing moment was being asked for her autograph midway through a smear test. Mira, such a pleasure to welcome you. Did that actually happen? It did actually happen. Yeah, yeah. Did you have to give the autograph while? Are you true? No, she did have her hands full at that point when she asked. But I said, yes, when we've done here, I'm happy. I'll wash my hands and so will you. And then I'll give you an autograph.

Oh, my goodness. That is quite the scenario. It's quite the scenario. I wonder when she actually recognised me. Which bit of me did she go, that's Meera Sayal. I wonder when she actually recognised me. Which bit of me did she go, that's Meera Sayal. But that quote about rolling with life's changes, I think, is so apt for this particular podcast.

Because is it your experience that when things have gone, quote unquote, wrong in the past, that it's actually provided you with a sort of opportunity you hadn't expected? Yes. I mean, I think I have that sort of immigrant pragmatism. It came with, I suppose, having parents that went through such chaotic times that you couldn't plan anything. I mean, my father was a victim of partition. He was in a refugee camp at 13. My mother's family was similarly affected by empire and they ended up, they both sort of ended up coming to Britain because the safe lives they thought they would have were shattered completely and I think you sort of inherit that in your DNA that's why we had suitcases on top of the wardrobe that's what I thought when I was a kid it's like in case we have to leave really quickly in the night so you grow

up with this understanding that life can change in the twinkling of an eye and you have to be prepared for it. And there are some things that are totally out of your control. So what can you do other than roll with it and learn from it? As a child, were you fearful of that idea of dramatic change or was it just something that you assimilated as part and parcel of existence almost? Yeah, I think you do. I mean, I don't remember the rivers of blood speech, but I remember my parents talking about it when I was a kid and how insecure that made them feel and the whole atmosphere of the late 60s and the 70s. If you were a person of colour in Britain, there was a feeling that you could be deported at any time or

that you could walk out your door and be faced with hostility physically or verbally. So even though it wasn't discussed that much, it was part of our armour. Now, my children don't feel that. They have a completely different feel about being British. They're, you know, a couple of generations on. But I think for us and our parents, that was certainly part of just life really living with the insecurity and you're very well known for using humor as a way of skewering political correctness and racial tension and I wonder if that's something that came naturally to you to use humor in that way I think it did because I came from a family that just really enjoyed a laugh.

There were always loads of other Punjabi friends in our house every weekend because your friends become your family when you're so far from your family and we were very tight and I think that's how they got rid of tension that they would sit around, eat food from the home country, sing songs from the home country and tell filthy jokes. That's how I learnt most of my Punjabi, I know all the swear words can't have a philosophical discussion can tell you several words for a lady's parts so humor seemed to be the best defense mechanism and I found that growing up as well I mean a lot of people that do comedy will tell you if you're making someone laugh they're too busy to hit you. So it is like the best way of diffusing tension, of getting acceptance.

And only smart people make jokes. You know, a sense of humor tells people that you're quick, you're intelligent. So it gives you, it's a kind of really brilliant sword and you have to use it wisely. But certainly for me, I always saw the funny side of things that were supposed to be dramatic, like being cross-cultural, so dramatic. You're poor, mixed-up kids, you know, and for me it wasn't, I didn't feel mixed up, I just felt quite lucky that I could see the frailties and stupidities and absurdities of both the communities

that I had a foot in. So I think humour can save your life, really. Let's talk about your first failure. These are such great failures. Thank you so much. Great failures. I have great failures. They're great. They're the best. Thank you so much. You're the best at your failures. But I'm actually going to reverse the order because the third failure you gave me was your failure to be good at maths and it relates particularly to your childhood and to that immigrant work ethic that you say you had which is like if I just work harder at this I will succeed but that wasn't the case tell us why

oh my gosh I don't know when it started because I remember at junior school I found maths quite easy adding up subtracting I mean it's all quite simple still know my tables up to 12 really well great and mental arithmetic the minute we got to senior school and it started becoming a bit more conceptual with the signs and the causes and the algebra and it was like I don't know if I had some kind of dyslexia but literally the stuff would swim on the page it made absolutely no sense to me and for someone that was used to being able to get through things just by slog because I wasn't naturally brilliant like some of the girls I was at school with I went to an all girls grammar school you know some of them would literally go no I haven't really done any revision and then sailed

through with you know straight A's hate those girls yeah I was always the sort of you know I slogged for my marks. And for most things, I could get through by slogging. Immigrant work ethic. It didn't work with maths. No matter how much I looked at those pages, my brain did not understand it. And so every year I failed my maths exam. And it just became a question of, well done, you only failed by 10 marks this year, or that was the level of disappointment and failure every year. And the harder I tried, the worse it got.

And it didn't make it easier that I had a really unpleasant, horrible maths teacher. I wish I could say his name. Anyway, he knows who he is. And he frightened everyone. He was a shouter. And if you got stuff wrong, he would shout and make you cry, literally make you cry.

You said he was a racist and a sadist in your view. Yeah, I think he was. He definitely used to pick on me. He probably picked on me twofold because, you know, I was terrible at maths. But also he didn't like any of the outsiders. You know, he picked on the overweight girls. He picked on, there was a girl with a stammer, he picked on her. I mean, he was just vile.

So when you couple not understanding with that kind of teacher, I remember feeling sick before maths lessons. I would literally feel sick because I thought, I know the homework's all wrong. I know I don't understand anything that's going on. I can't ask him because he will shout at me. So it was a terrible, horrible spiral. That's horrid.

It is horrible. Did you translate that failure personally? So did you feel that you, Mira, were a failure because you were rubbish at maths? Or did you manage to disconnect it from yourself? Well, luckily, I was good at other things. I mean, I was predictably really good at English and I had a facility for languages. So at least I had other things. And I was good at netball still still play it what was your position goal shooter excellent still play it twice a week love it anyway so there were other things I could hold on to and I think every kid needs that it doesn't matter what you could be bad at lots of things but every kid needs what they feel is their superpower and once you've got that one thing, whether it's music or football or Latin or whatever it is, you can hold that to yourself and go, I'm good at this.

This is my thing. So I had other things. But the awful thing was in them days, and I think it's probably still true, you couldn't actually apply for any higher education without a maths O level as it was in those days. And it was looming. And I thought there is actually a real chance I will not be able to go to uni because I don't see how I'm ever gonna ever pass this exam. It's so difficult as well when it's just that your mind doesn't work that way I can completely relate because I like you was really good at English and really rubbish at maths

it was just that I couldn't make my brain function to understand it no I know it is like a language and I really admire people that say maths is beautiful the patterns of it and it you know once you know the rules you know you can apply it to anything and I see the enthusiasm and joy they get from it and it's like they're talking in a different I mean I just it's like the Charlie Brown wow wow wow you know none of that makes sense it's one of those cumulative effects if it's like trying to build a house on sand if you don't understand the basics you're not going to understand anything beyond that and the basics were wrong my house was built on tapioca and what did your parents make of it what did they feel about it well they moved from despair through disappointment

to incredulity to finally paying for a maths tutor in my o-level year and then this is a loose term the maths tutor that they could afford was a friend of theirs called Mr Sivya I still remember his name god love him and he was a maths graduate in India that is true however like many immigrants that he wasn't considered to have transferable skills he might have been a genius in India that is true however like many immigrants that he wasn't considered to have transferable skills he might have been a genius in India but in England that didn't mean anything he would have had to retrain and that cost money so in fact he was an ice cream man so he would turn up every week to tutor me in his ice cream van often with the jingles on you know this is not good for your street cred.

And even now, when I hear the teddy bear's picnic, I get this cold math sweat. I literally get the math sweat. I've got to do algebra. It's the teddy bear's picnic. And he would park on the drive. And whatever he did, something went in. I scraped a C.

I can remember the relief of putting all those books away. But it was a really, it was a really interesting lesson because it was good for me to be confronted with something that I had no control over, that was beyond my powers to change or redeem. I did what I could. You know, my parents got creative. I looked for alternatives, but I just had to sit back and go, you know what? That is just something I'm never, never going to be good at. And I found out that I can survive the rest of life without doing trigonometry. I think that's so interesting, because the subject of this podcast is failure. I think sometimes people believe that I'm advocating actively pursuing failure, which I'm

not. I think, as you say, accepting failure is also about accepting your own limits. And if you have tried your absolute best and you've tried your hardest and you've tried to think creatively about it and it's still not working, then it's so much better for you to gracefully sort of accept it and move on. Absolutely. And it's changed my attitude to education. You know, with my own children and certainly particularly where I'm living now in the North London bubble, where the pressure on children to be good at everything is phenomenal. I just don't engage with, you know, Tarquin's doing grade eight violin. He's translated all of Harry Potter into Mandarin just for fun. He's such a sweetie. He's translated all of Harry Potter into Mandarin just for fun. He's such a sweetie.

Tarquin. Okay, good for Tarquin. But, you know, kids can't be good at everything. And if they're breaking their backs to be good at everything and get the A stars, this is when you end up with mental health problems. This is when you end up with a generation of kids that are self-harming in secret or are burnt out by 18 or go through life feeling like failures because they weren't good at maths because they were one or two things that they weren't top of the class at and actually it doesn't matter

you know it's more important you are following your passion because if you follow your passion you'll be good at it you'll work at it it'll be something you love doing and you accept you can't get straight A's and everything good if you're one of those kids that do it effortlessly but not at the expense of your mental health and you did end up following your passion and what I find interesting about the maths thing is that you said that your parents eventually had to accept the fact that you were not going to be a doctor the Asian dream yeah not even marrying one. I haven't even got close. Rubbish, Mira. What have you done? Such a disappointment. CBE.

I know. Yeah, because they did that extraordinary thing. They looked at me as a whole holistic child and went, what is this child good at? What seems to give her joy? The two coincide. She gets joy from telling stories and languages and writing stories in English they said do that and at that point I was literally the only Asian kid that I knew that had their parents blessing to go and do something that wasn't medicine law pharmacy business studies you know the accepted proper respectable subjects oh my god they got so much dick. Did they? Yes, they got. I mean, they wouldn't tell me half of it,

but they would get the lectures from other well-meaning uncles and aunties who would say what we know. I remember one of them said, why do you think anyone will give a brown girl a job that's doing English and the only thing she can do is teach? Who would want a brown woman to teach their kids English? You know, really sort of. Right.

Which made me and them, I'm sure they didn't tell me, but feel really attacked, I suppose, about it. But this is the extraordinary thing about my parents. I understand where that comes from with a lot of immigrant parents. It's fear. It's fear for their children's future.

We are strangers in a strange land. You know, medicine is an international language. A spleen is a spleen is a spleen in every country if you do that we will stop worrying I totally get it particularly in my father's case having been through the chaos of partition he could have easily got like that defended frightened holding on to his children and you know he went the other way his heart got bigger and he expanded and he had faith in the universe and faith in me instead of being frightened by it and wow what a gift that was your parents sound amazing they are and they've been married for how long they were married for

60 years my father passed away last september i'm sorry but his influence is constant actually constant and you have a younger brother rajiv who is a friend hello rajiv hello bro he's gonna be really embarrassed now he hates being named i know he's he's a very he doesn't like attention at all does he really doesn't total opposite to me let's keep talking about him not kidding um but what did he do at university did he go because he's a journalist now he did politics i think and economics god i'm such a terrible sister i'm pretty sure that's what you did was that acceptable yeah yeah yeah yeah but in fact you know my parents were fairly i mean they were laid back with both of us they were with both of us they said do the thing that gives you joy and that you're good

at so you ended up at Manchester University you studied drama and English yeah you graduated with a double first all right thank you yeah good girl that's because I wasn't doing any sex and drugs and rock and roll at university what a waste of time but then you were going to do a master's weren't you and it sounds like you were going to become a teacher. I wanted to work, and it was very, it was a real out there concept back then. But I wanted to work with drama, through drama, with kids with learning difficulties, and drama as psychotherapy, really, which is now quite a thing. But then it wasn't. And there was only one place that actually did the MA at that point, and that was Leeds.

So I had an MA place at Leeds, and I'd also booked a PGCE place at Goldsmiths. So my life was really lined up for graduation, yeah. And then what happened? Your life took a slightly different direction. Yeah, sliding doors moment, wasn't it? In my last year of university, I developed a one-woman show with a great friend of mine called Jackie Shapiro,

who was also in the department. And it was, in my dramatic way, I thought, this is my swan song to acting, because I don't think I'm ever going to make a living from it. I don't see women like me out there. And if you don't see it, you don't think you can be it. And I thought, I've played all these wonderful roles at uni, but I don't see how I'm going get that work out there so as a swan

song I thought I'd put everything that I was feeling about who I was and my situation into a one-woman show called One of Us in which I played about 15 different parts and it was about a young Asian girl who'd run away from home to become an actress and it was set at her first audition and she talks to the audience as if she's at her audition and I did it for one night at the studio in Manchester we had a drama studio where you could put plays on every Monday and it had this extraordinary sort of impact really I remember one of my friends Tony after I finished the show I was sitting on the stairs really quite emotional because I thought oh I love doing this and I'm not going to be doing it very much longer.

And Tony came and put his arm around me and he said, I've known you for four years and I didn't know. This is what you thought. This is how you felt. So that, to cut a long story short, this little, little play that I thought would be on for one night got picked up by the National Student Drama Festival won some awards there got picked to go to Edinburgh won an award there and literally my last week a director from the Royal Court saw me and offered me a job two weeks before I was

due to start my MA. Incredible do you believe in the universe having a plan for you rather than you Mira Sayal developing your five-year plan and sticking to it rigidly like are you open to those sort of opportunities is that how you live your life yeah I think that word open is really really important I know so few people whose life has gone to plan life doesn't work that way and I have had the rug pulled from under me so many times in my life, personally and professionally. So it's sort of slightly pointless. It's nice to have aims and ambitions, absolutely conceptually. It's nice to have plans, but even a plan B, C, D and E sometimes doesn't cover the unexpected. So being open to the opportunities that can come

and to roll with them is really important especially my profession as a self-employed creative on the other hand you know that bit of luck and it was a huge amount of luck wouldn't have happened if I hadn't created the opportunity in the first place you know if I hadn't had the chutzpah and the self-determination to create that show then none of it would have happened so it is a mixture of planning and putting the work in, but also accepting that, you know, the opportunity might not take you in the place you think you're going to end up.

You don't know where it's going to go. And I do think it's so important for women particularly to claim the hard work that has led them places rather than just to say, I'm so lucky. It was just luck, it was luck. It's nothing to do to do with me silly old me I think that's very very important culturally to sort of say that and you put the work in absolutely and we're not good at that as women we're not good at owning that although I do love that this is saying isn't it I think it's Henry Ford who said it's a funny thing the harder I work the luckier I get yeah I love that it's a good one

it's a good one well it's ironic that one. Well, it's ironic that your one-woman show, which led to all of this incredible success, was about auditions because your second failure is auditions and how much you hate them. Oh, my God. I just hate them. I hate them. And it is, of course, the bread and butter of every actor's life.

Unless you're one of those really rare 1% that are so famous and loved that you, of course, never have to audition for anything again. You just get asked to do things. And occasionally I get asked to do things, especially in the theatre, which is lovely. But pretty much every screen job I've had to go up for. And now we're in the days of self-tape. This is a huge thing where you literally have to put yourself,

you get sent a script maybe the day before. you have to learn it as well as you can. Put yourself on tape, on your phone, whatever, and you send it off. You don't even get into the room to meet the people. So you can at least try and charm them into giving you work. It's all about that self-tape. And I'm terrible at them. I can probably count on two hands over 25 years the number of jobs I've got from auditions.

Also, when you're filming yourself on your phone, it must be really distracting because you're just looking at your face while you're doing it. Yeah, well, I wrote my husband in or my daughter or whoever's about. Some people have those clever tripods. But you need someone else to read the other lines.

That's the thing. So there are lots of companies that will do it for you it's a lot of time and effort I mean worth it because of course you might end up with an amazing job at the end of it but I tend to do that awful thing of walking into an audition mostly feeling a bit desperate right and it's the worst thing the worst thing is to walk into any room giving off that I really want this job. And I'm not always desperate for the job. I'm just desperate about the situation.

I'm already telling myself you're going to be really shit because you never do yourself justice. And I rarely do. And what do you think it is about the audition scenario that makes you feel like that, that gets to you? Because you're clearly extremely talented at performing on stage and in front of the cameras when you get the job so what is it about that bit that's so horrible I think actually underneath the layer of desperation is I'm really pissed off that I have to do it I'm really pissed off that I'm a product but I imagine that there's a power dynamic at play when you're a woman as well because particularly

when you were starting out I'm imagining that most of the directors and the people you were auditioning in front of were men who were not only in a position of power because they were in the position of offering you a job but in the position of power because of the sexual dynamics at work in that room so do you think sexism was at play as well oh I'm sure there were all kinds of isms going on I mean interestingly I rarely got seen for you know Asian girl parts in my 20s because I was no one's idea of what an Asian girl looked like what they expected was somebody demure with waist length black hair great big doe eyes and a sweet disposition what they got was gobby big tits curly hair and not a size 10. So, you know,

immediately, I wasn't up for those parts anyway. And that was a good thing. It forced me. I mean, I'm a character actress. And that is not a term of derision. For me, that is a great place to be in the industry. Because they are the most interesting roles. I've never played a romantic lead. I've never played pretty and feminine I've happily played ugly old difficult all of those things that women are not supposed to like doing I like all the actresses I admire like Julie Walters and Kathy Burke and Judy Dench have done those kind of parts which they're given the label character parts but but for me they are the interesting women they're given the label character parts, but for me, they are the interesting women. They're the women outside what is considered society's definition of feminine.

Which means that you're in work consistently, from my perspective anyway, as someone who sort of watches you being terrific in the split, you're not someone who has been diminished by growing older. Well, that's the great boon of being a character actress because my selling point was never my youth or my beauty it was I hope my ability to play really interesting parts it must be really hard if that is how you you know your career is dependent on your looks and that is why you get the people doing terrible things to their faces because they look

in the mirror and they go that's not the face I had when I was 20 slash 30 and that means I'm not going to work anymore. Have you ever felt that sort of pressure or put that pressure on yourself to look a certain way at any time during your career? Well no because ultimately I think I was a bit too lazy. I think I could have I could have starved myself for 25 years and been a size eight and probably it would have got me more work but there was a bit of me that just goes actually fuck that because I'm a normal size woman in real life and people should see normal size women on screen having a good time and being happy with themselves preach also you're so beautiful your

skin is amazing as well oh i've got makeup on right i'm gonna ask you for your skincare routine after this but the audition thing is it difficult not to take it personally so when you had a really horrible audition and the feedback came back what would the feedback be oh well they'll they will never say your client was shit and we will never employ her again they will they will say things we've gone in a different direction which covers a whole load of isms actually I mean you have to accept sometimes you're not right for the part and I absolutely know because I've been on the other side of the table and I have auditioned people when I've been producing and I can say hand on heart I know now it is not about you.

Anyone that manages to get into the room to see a director and producer has already beaten loads of other people. So you're good and you're there. And it's a chemical thing when you're casting. It's sometimes the way somebody turns their head or delivers a line or they just look how the writer imagined. So I know that intellectually it can be a million different reasons not to do with the fact that you're talented and this is where the pragmatism comes in you have to go that

wasn't mine that one wasn't mine I knew in the split that was mine I read it and I thought I really hope I get this because I know this woman yeah I can play this woman and maybe that showed and I did audition and maybe that showed when I auditioned. But was it the split was such a female-centric production, wasn't it? Maybe that made the difference because I was talking to women the whole way through. Yeah. You know, the director was a woman. The writer was a woman.

The producers were women. A lot of the crew were women. It was fantastic. And maybe I did carry in a different attitude when I walked in to do that part. I don't know. So, yeah, it is hard not to take it personally, but you can't. That way madness lies. I wish I was better at auditions. I also hate the fact that sometimes I feel like I've let people down.

Because for you to be in the room to audition, you are there because so many people might have fought your corner. And I know that, especially for parts that don't say Asian on them. If I've got in the room, I know that my agent has been battling a way to get me in that room I know that some brilliant casting director has battled a way to get me in that room so when you don't get it you sort of also I think I'm more disappointed that I might have let the people down that fought to get me in there it really reminds me of an interview I did with Deborah Frances White the guilty feminist on this podcast who she used to teach students at RADA and she said to them treat your first year of auditions actively as if you're not going to get the auditions best way and and she said in that way it's data acquisition what you're learning in that first year is how to be good at auditions

and what they can do for you and but you're not going to get a part yeah and I thought that was such an interesting way and it sounds exactly exactly the same as how you've come to assess the process and I feel like you can use it in every part of life you can use it in dating so if you have a bad date it's just it's not for you it's just the chemistry was wrong it's not about you as a person yeah absolutely that is and it's funny I mean you know the few auditions I have got, most of them I haven't gone in thinking, I really want this job. I've gone in thinking, this looks really interesting. But not the sort of, you know, that sort of tummy flutter, I really want this. I felt with Goldie on the split. Do you think that auditions are outdated? I I mean is there another way of doing it oh my gosh well it's self-tape is happening more and more is that better sometimes it can do a disservice to people that you know actually come across better in real life than they do on screen I think I'm one of

those people I don't think I always look great on screen but on the other hand if it's a screen project then how you look on screen is actually what they're looking for so this is going to happen more and more and what do you make of the me too and the time's up movement a long time coming i think i feel like we're working in a different atmosphere now and that can only be a good thing i think it also means that i hope that you walk into situations now particularly and things like auditions, with a greater sense of protection, actually. It'll take quite a few years. There are layers and layers of patriarchy to unpeel.

It's been such a long time coming. It will be a long time to find its equilibrium, too, I think. But we just need mutual respect in our business. And it is a business because it deals so much with the physical with how people look that there was always going to be abuse attached to it in an industry where there are such powerful people that can literally change the course of your life with a thumbs up or thumbs down there was going to be abuse so it'll be interesting to see what the shake-up is. Working on the split, it felt different,

that there was an all-female gaze on the work and in the crew. Things that are happening, for example, at the Globe and Emilia and the whole sort of atmosphere and practice that they're bringing because it's an all-female team. For example, they had a matinee for babies at Emilia the other day, I think the first ever in the West End where mums could bring their babies and it doesn't matter how much noise they made and they're doing another one now and you think gosh that's such a simple idea but it's sort of changing the temperature

and the feel of what could have been a really stuffy institution the West End Theatre so it's nice that the fallout of Me Too is having these kind of ripple effects and I love that. Do you feel anger at the isms that you've experienced? I feel that I'm getting more radicalized the older I get. Angry old women I shall wear purple um well that's a great thing about getting older you just give less of an f for everything don't you you get I'm certainly so much less scared about who I upset I'm careful how I say things I don't go out to offend or upset people but I'm really clear about calling it out when I see it now and that's another great thing that's happened that you don't feel you're never going to work again and what happens is actually when you actually call people out on stuff,

they can be defensive, but actually they will listen. That didn't happen before. There's a sense of shame attached now to being called out on stuff. Yeah. You know, even if people are embracing diversity and equality because they feel shame about it rather than they really want to do it, I don't really care. The outcome is the same.

Exactly. rather than they really want to do it. I don't really care. The outcome is the same. Exactly. And when do you think you fully found your voice as a fully realised woman? What age do you think it happened? I don't know, last week?

It's an ever-evolving thing, isn't it? When did that happen? Probably not till my 40s, I would say. I wish it had been sooner. But things happen when they happen. We all ripen at different times. So talking about the matinee for babies, there's another seamless link onto your third and final failure, which is, and I love this failure. We've never had one like it. When you had your son, you tried to follow the Gina Ford routine, which for anyone who doesn't know, is this super strict

routine for babies where they have set bedtimes and you can't look them in the eye when you're breastfeeding them and rigorous feeding schedules. And well, you would know more about it. Explain what the Gina Ford routine is. Yeah, you pretty much got it in a nutshell. And it was all the rage when I had my son in 2005. I mean, I remember even Nick Clegg giving an interview. He'd had a kid recently going, we're following Gina Ford. And everyone was like, yes, of course. And this was very much in the atmosphere.

Now, it had been a long time since I'd had a baby. There were 13 years between my kids. And I had forgotten everything, really. And it was a shock. You know, I was in my early 40s. I'd just got my career back on track. And now I was going to have to stop it again. There were all kinds of things going on in my head. Absolutely delighted and surprised about this little late miracle. Must have been my last egg creaking its way down my fallopian tube on crutches. I love hearing stories like that.

But I think I got pregnant six weeks after we got married. I love hearing stories like that. But I think I got pregnant six weeks after we got married. Wow. So everything was happening very quickly. And in the midst of all this bliss and fear and chaos that this had thrown me into, structure seemed to be the way that would get me through it. Now, I didn't follow everything. I had that whole not looking the baby in the eye when you're breastfeeding.

That just sounds cruel. But Gina Ford, it was a thing I think I gave up at about two months and it broke me it broke me and I just can't believe that I fell for something so prescriptive so clearly bonkers written by a woman that had never had children can I just say that again that I had never had children that should have been the red flag right that's the most bonkers thing of the whole that had never had children. Can I just say that again? That had never had children. That should have been the red flag, right? That's the most bonkers thing of the whole thing. Because when you sent me your failure,

it reminded me of a job that I did in journalism where I interviewed Gina Ford. And it must actually have been around that time that Nick Clegg was following the programme. And she was such a mysterious and guarded woman she would only do a phone conversation and there were sort of strict regulations about when exactly I could call her how long it was going to last what I could and couldn't ask her and she was extremely odd and I had never realized that she's had no children as you say she's never had her own baby she's looked after other people's babies,

but that's a completely different thing. It is utterly different, and I wish I'd known that. And I'm so angry with myself that I wasted the first precious two months of my son's life, who was little anyway. He was three weeks early. He didn't feed well. He got gastroenteritis, and he was a few weeks old.

There were all kinds of other things going on. And I should have just followed my instincts and just gone, whatever this kid needs, he can have. If he wants to sleep on me, he can sleep on me. If he wants to feed every hour, it'll kill me, but let him feed every hour. Luckily, you know, I didn't do this forever, but I regret those two months. And I also understand how mothers get sucked into this insecurity because that's where I was, you know, not knowing who to listen to, fearing I was going to mess everything up because I'd forgotten how to bring the bag. You know, I really actually had to look up how much milk does a baby need and when. Just basic stuff like that when I should have asked other women that have had babies I should have asked well I did ask my mum she couldn't remember but I certainly should have plugged into the women that know those are the women that have had babies the women that had the happy

gurgly babies I should have gone what did you do and on top of that gone every child is different you know so I'll take that on board now if I'd gone back to the culture I come from and I'd remembered what they do you just basically don't move out of your bed for six weeks that's the rule there's none of this yes I had a cesarean and I was in Sainsbury's three hours later you know getting ingredients for pasta tonight it's you stupid woman that's the last thing you should be doing the whole of your family should be treating you like a goddess you've just done the most incredible thing you should be lying in your bed having a baby moon being brought food so your womb can knit and your milk can come in and you

can stop stressing because the reason your milk doesn't come in is that you're stressed and then don't even look at those pictures of people going I'm back into my size 10 jeans good for you because you had a tummy tuck when you had your cesarean don't lie there are all this stuff that we are fed that just makes new mothers feel terrible about themselves at a time where they should be being celebrated as having done the most extraordinary thing in the world yeah and I wish I'd listened to that and what happened when you had your daughter 13 years earlier did you feel the same pressure no no and I was in a very different point of my life she was very wanted I was absolutely ready I've been nest building for ages my career wasn't at a point where it was when I had my son so taking time off

you know I'd had a lot of time off because I've been unemployed for quite long swathes. So I was in a very different place. I was young. I was young. I bounced back really quickly. It was a natural birth. And I absolutely follow my instincts on that. I get it. So with your son, you were trying to impose structure on the chaos that you perceived around. Yeah. Now I look back, I was, you know, mentally in a mess. Call it postnatal depression if you want. I didn't feel right for at least a year, year and a half. It didn't work at all.

I ended up with a son that didn't sleep through the night for two years. And probably that is because I just messed with him at two months old when I should have not been doing any of that Gina Ford bollocks do you still feel guilty about it I do a bit I'm trying not to yeah you must not because he doesn't remember any of it he doesn't and children are their own characters yeah as soon as they're born really absolutely absolutely and you know he brings me endless joy I just wish I'd been a little less hard on myself and I wish that we're never honest about it I think the atmosphere's changed you know he brings me endless joy I just wish I'd been a little less hard on myself and I wish that we're never honest about it I think the atmosphere's changed you know there's so many

discussions and podcasts and books now about you know the bad mother's club even that title is sort of weird no just the mother's club if we'd had all had the honesty to sit together and go this is awful isn't it I'm feeling a complete loon I'm not sleeping my body's a car crash I have this bundle of joy I'm supposed to feel happy and all I feel is confused and I think postnatal depression is so linked to the loss of identity that you feel when you have children especially when you're a self-employed creative and you know that there's no pension plan there's no maternity leave you know you've stopped your career you're a self-employed creative and you know that there's no pension plan, there's no maternity leave, you know, you've stopped your career.

You're going to have to work really, really hard to remind people you exist and to get back there. And then you've got to juggle this baby with those ridiculous hours. There are all, you know, the pressure's intense. And there's so little support for self-employed women that have children. And I think postnatal depression is so linked to that.

It is that who am I now? And again, I should have remembered the phrase that the translation in Punjabi is, there are two people born when a baby is born, a baby and a mother. You are a completely new person. You are new in every way, mentally, physically, spiritually. Embrace that. It is another another life that's very beautiful yeah I forgot it I forgot all of that in those first two months and instead I went Gina Ford you have all the answers she really didn't and what was your husband doing at this like how did he feel about what was happening well he was around

we were both running around like headless chickens he was also a self-employed creative what do we do i know no he wasn't it's not that he wasn't supportive yeah and i'd had a cesarean as well so you know i was also physically recovering and he wasn't feeling any of that he was as supportive as he could be but at at that age, the kid really just needs you. And how much do you think the 13 years in between your children, I'm imagining culturally, again, those were 13 years when the press and the media were paying lots of attention to the people who had pinged back into their pre-baby body

and it felt like motherhood was getting fetishized in a certain way. How much do you think that affected you? Oh, a lot. I think it affected all of us. I still think it affects women now less than it did then, but it was at its peak then. It just adds to the sense of failure and it's so unreal. Your body shouldn't be pinging back. You know, you've been through something profound and huge and your body will never be the same again you know I look at all the stretch marks and the cesarean scar and all of that and I own it I it's like my badge of honor every stretch mark was earned every wrinkle on my face is earned you know that my body is a map of my life and I love it what a lovely thing to say it's your new

body for your new mother personhood um and how old is your son now 13 does he like routine or does he not that's such an interesting question yes he does actually to some extent or at least he likes me to be around to impose it it's that thing isn't it I think all kids need boundaries so he enjoys those boundaries but he jazzes in riffs in between them which I think is really healthy I'm really trying to learn that lesson that you know I learned from the whole Gina Ford experience which is give him security in his boundaries but let let him be who he is let him grow let him find that thing and isn't enough can own do you feel that another thing that that episode taught you was to follow your instincts and really totally

yeah totally that's why it was quite a valuable lesson quite early on and I did it for the for the rest of that time and you have loads of ups and downs with kids you know there are points where you go oh my god they're actually you know either they're nuts or I am but there's something really wrong and why is he doing that why is she done and I will and at those points I go what do I I know I gave birth to this person they were in me for nine months I should know what is that little voice inside me telling me about this do I need help if my instincts say yes yeah I'm going to ask for it so I'm just working out the maths because even though I'm rubbish at maths, I can occasionally do simple mental arithmetic. So is your daughter 26?

Yes. Do you think it's hard to be in your 20s nowadays? Yes, maybe. I think the 20s are hard generally. I think my 20s were hard. It's supposed to be peak time, isn't it although maybe that's changing too but no for me it was it i was jelly i was so unfinished and unmolded and carrying a lot of baggage about expectation about how i should behave as a woman and i don't think she has that which i love and i look at the generation coming up the woke generation and their love for the environment and their passionate commitment to it and their distrust of existing political systems and their embracing and

celebration of feminism and i have a lot of hope and so i think in some ways the 20s is the generation their 20s and younger are quite inspirational in other ways I think you poor sod you have social media and that is the big difference that I feel blessed I didn't have that when I was growing up I was allowed to make my mistakes in private do you have social media now I'm on Twitter and that's it not even on Facebook or Instagram or anything takes up too much time as it is and And what's been your favourite decade thus far? Oh, I think they all have a flavour. I'm not sure I have a favourite.

What's the flavour of your current decade? Juicy plum. Love! I'm ripe. I'm ripe and ready to go. Oh, Mira Sayal, juicy plum, smear test autographer. you've been an absolute delight thank you so so much for coming on how to fail it's a pleasure thank you for having me

if you enjoyed this episode of how to fail with Elizabeth Day, I would so appreciate it if you could rate, review and subscribe. Apparently it helps other people know that we exist.