How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S6, Ep 8 How to Fail: Jane Garvey

Episode Date: November 20, 2019

*SEASON FINALE KLAXON* I mean...where does the time go? A minute ago it was summer and now here I am posting the final episode of Season Six and it's a mere 24 shopping days left until Christmas. Sheesh. But what a pleasure I have in store for you! She comes in the form of the ICONIC Jane Garvey: broadcaster extraordinaire, host of Radio 4's Woman's Hour and one-half of the brilliant podcasting duo, Fortunately...with Fi and Jane. I couldn't have asked for a better guest to bring this season to a close. (Well, I suppose I could have asked, but the point is, no-one would have been able to fulfil that request).Jane so engaged with the premise of How To Fail that she sent not three but seven failures over email, saying she was 'struggling to narrow it down' and that it was up to me to choose which ones we talked about. We talk about her failure to listen, her tendency never to be seen to be trying too hard in case she doesn't succeed and her failure to appreciate fully what women were really up against in terms of equal pay at the BBC, partly because of what she sees as her own internalised misogyny and self-acknowledged white privilege. Most poignantly, Jane talks about her three miscarriages, and the long-felt emotional impact of each one. As anyone who has ever been through it will know, having a miscarriage is a specific form of grief that is difficult to describe but Jane articulates her feelings so beautifully that I know her story will be a great help to many of us.'All sounds a but whiny,' she signed off her email, 'but I’m actually a laugh when I try!!' You are indeed Jane. You're HILARIOUS. But you're also someone who isn't afraid to go deep and we're so grateful for it. I'll be taking a little break now but will be back in January with eight more fabulous guests. I'm deeply appreciative of everyone who has listened, downloaded, rated, reviewed and subscribed. You make me very happy (and, on a practical note, you also make it more financially feasible for me to carry on doing this so YAY for that). Until next year: thank you and keep failing better! * Looking for a Christmas present? THEN LOOK NO FURTHER THAN MY MEMOIR, the Sunday Times Top 5 bestselling book of the podcast, How To Fail: Everything I've Ever Learned From Things Going Wrong which is available here.*You can listen to Fortunately...with Fi and Jane here* This season of How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted by Elizabeth Day, produced by Naomi Mantin and Chris Sharp and sponsored by Sweaty Betty. Sweaty Betty are offering listeners 20% off full-price items with the code HOWTOFAILTo contact us, email [e-mail]* Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayJane Garvey @janegarvey1Sweaty Betty @sweatybetty           Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Make your nights unforgettable with American Express. Unmissable show coming up? Good news. We've got access to pre-sale tickets so you don't miss it. Meeting with friends before the show? We can book your reservation. And when you get to the main event, skip to the good bit using the card member entrance.

Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by card. Other conditions apply. This season of How to Fail with Elizabeth Day is sponsored by Sweaty Betty. I love yoga. I want to feel liberated and calm when I do yoga.

I love yoga. I want to feel liberated and design team has put into things like their vests, which have open backs so that you don't feel too sweaty or constricted. I love the fact that their leggings move so easily every time you do a warrior pose. And I would love for you to have the same experience as me with Sweaty Betty. And so they're offering you 20% off their products with the code HOWTOFAIL. Thank you very much to Sweaty Betty. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right.

This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned from failure. Jane Garvey, what a woman. Okay, that's my introduction. No, okay, not really, only kidding. Jane Garvey is a broadcaster and a brilliant one at that. She's a regular presenter of BBC Radio 4's Woman's Hour and the co-host of her own wonderful podcast, Fortunately with Fee and Jane, the Fee in question being fellow broadcaster Fee Glover. Every week,

the two of them sit at a table in Cafe Nero outside Broadcasting House in central London and, in their words, chunter on about anything that takes their fancy. Subjects have ranged from the menopause to equal pay to Colin Firth and to what household container you use as a child's sick bowl. It is now one of the most downloaded BBC podcasts. Full disclosure, I've been a guest and it was 30 minutes of pure joy. But if the Liverpool-born Garvey had had her way, she would have been a bus conductor. That was her childhood ambition. When this didn't pan out, she found herself working variously as a medical records

clerk, a receptionist, and an advertising agency trainee, a job from which she was fired. Advertising's loss was broadcasting's gain. Eventually, she found work experience in local radio, went on to co-present The Drive show on Radio 5, winning four Sony Gold Awards, before landing at Women's Hour in 2007. The rest is history. There's a low bar set for women being funny, she said in an interview about her podcast earlier this year. So I think the fact that we didn't need scripts and were moderately amusing was enough to gain us a reputation as a pair of wisecracking broads. Wisecracking broad Jane Garvey, welcome to How to Fail.

Thank you very much. Great pleasure to be here. It's such a delight to have you on. I'm so thrilled that I get my own back now, having been unfortunately. Yeah, I'm not sure I'm looking forward to that very much. We'll see. But I think that quote about the podcast is so interesting because I know that it took you four years to get fortunately off the ground and commissioned. Yes, well, partly our own fault because I think I was quite a late adopter of podcasts I love them now I really really do I couldn't quite see the point because I am at heart a big big fan of live radio whether

as a listener or as a broadcaster I just couldn't see what podcasts offer I hold my hand up I was completely wrong I now I'm addicted to podcasts as well as live radio. So I barely sleep, quite frankly. But do you think it was also because this idea of two women talking? Oh, there was that too. Yeah. Yeah. Because actually what fortunately does, it seems so obvious, like all the best ideas,

because it's two women talking about serious stuff, but also really funny stuff. And like you would do down the pub with your mates. And it feels like there's been a long tradition of men doing that in various broadcast forms but not necessarily women and i think we did accept that women accepted it too that men were the kings of banter and that all we could do was titter appreciatively on the sidelines and actually it's been one of my major failings as a woman that i've never been all that good at laughing at men unless they were really funny and then I and then I will do it because there are some really really funny men and I'll giggle along with the rest of society but I never bought the idea that men were fundamentally

witty and that women were just there to be in the audience I've just never never understood that and do you get lots of messages and people stopping you in the street now wanting to talk about the podcast specifically? It's really weird you say that because people do like Woman's Hour, but it's a different sort of offering. Fortunately is the thing that people now talk to me about. And I have had, and frankly, it's been brilliant, younger women talking to me on the tube about Fortunately. That is a massive thrill. It really is because I think for whatever reason, it's reached a part that we didn't know needed reaching. And I'm delighted by that. It's actually my proudest achievement in my working life that actually,

that we've done something at a time in our working lives, V and I, that perhaps we mightn't have expected to have done or got the chance to do. And we just seem to have found a different sort of audience that really connects with the gibberish we talk. And you're right. And some of the more serious stuff we talk about as well. It's fantastic.

Do your daughters listen? No, they have never heard the podcast and they have heard me once on Woman's Hour. How old are they? They're 19 and 16. And the time when they, and they didn't hear it live. And I'm sure I've talked about this, unfortunately, it was the interview I did with Caitlyn Jenner because they were big fans of the Kardashians. I thought, well, here's an opportunity to reach across to my young offspring and show them what mummy does. So I said, you know, come on, I've interviewed Caitlyn Jenner, so let's all gather round.

There was a spark of interest, nothing more than a spark, but there was a spark. The three of us sat down and I pressed play on the phone and we listened to my encounter with Caitlyn Jenner. And then after about two minutes, the eldest one just got up and walked out. And then four minutes after that, the younger one was just clearly not listening. And she then drifted off as well. And so I was left on my own listening to myself interviewing Caitlyn Jenner.

So I just stood up and turned it off and put Five Live back on. You can't, they couldn't give a damn what I do. And why would they, frankly? Well, I love Woman's Hour and I listen to it all the time. And I think it's interesting that I love it because I'm fascinating. No, but I think it's interesting because the name Woman's Hour is so old fashioned. Oh yeah. Everything about it, it's a brand name.

People always say, well, why can't you change it? And actually 40% of the audience are male. And we hugely welcome that audience. It's like brand name. People always say, well, why can't you change it? And actually, 40% of the audience are male. And we hugely welcome that audience. It's like the Radio Times. It's a great brand name. It's never going to change. And I really don't want it to, actually, now, having thought the same as you, that the name was ridiculous and we ought to replace it. What would we call it?

Family time? What we're pissed off about today? Girl chat. Girl chat, yeah. Girl bants. Girl bants with Jen and Jane. Yeah, that would work. Actually, I don't know how you say it.

I don't know why I'm not the controller. I've often wondered why I'm not, actually. But in terms of preparation, because obviously the podcast is freewheeling and that's its charm. Yes. But is there a lot more preparation that goes into a Woman's Hour interview?

It used to be. I joined Woman's Hour in 2007. Did I? Thank you. Straight from Five Live, which was, obviously still is, the BBC's rolling news and sport network. And there just wasn't any time. I did a three-hour live show, breakfast I did for a while and then drive. Loved it. Love Five Live, still do. We just did the programme and anything could happen in those shows. I remember terrible, cataclysmic news events that we either covered or that happened during our time, in fact, particularly on drive, where stuff tends to happen. And then afterwards, there'd be a meeting of about

90 seconds at seven o'clock in the evening, and then we'd all just go home. And beforehand, well, you can't plan for a news show. What can you do? You can make sure you're reasonably well informed, but you can't do any more than that. But with Woman's Hour, I couldn't believe the contrast. And in the early days, it sounds really odd, but I used to get notes biked around to the house. And then gradually it became emails.

So 20th century. We're still doing it that way now. And so you will get each item on Woman's Hour. Say it's a 44 and a half minute long programme, which is actually what it is. It's not actually an hour, everybody. Just feels like it. Sometimes.

Because the last 15 minutes is a book or a drama. It's a play. Please don't get me started. I always switch off then. No, well, you're not the only one. Oh God, I'll have to cut that out. No, don't't keep it in um and so i let's say i'm doing a lovely author who's written a fabulous book then i will have read the book usually and then a producer will have read the book

and then i'll get i don't know 16 pages of a4 notes not always if you're doing a star of some magnitude then you'll probably be sent loads of clips. I mean, to be honest, I could do some of it myself. I can clearly Google Helen Mirren, find out a few key facts myself. We're looking again at the way we work, because I think there are probably quicker and more efficient ways of producing interviews on Radio 4. The difference between Radio 4 and Five Live, as a boss at the BBC once explained to me, is that Radio 4 is a producer's network and 5 Live is a presenter's network. In other words, the producers really want you to do the interview they've planned. And I still struggle with that because I don't think

you can really plan live radio interviews. That's so interesting. And actually it leads us onto the first... Thank you for saying that. No, it is is it's fascinating because it does lead us on to the first failure that i would love to discuss and i should say at this point that jane you did this incredibly generous thing where you emailed me seven failures because you couldn't whittle it down to three yes and actually before i get started on the three that i've chosen from those seven, I would love to know your take on this, because I'm often asked about the gender disparity in terms of how men and women treat failure. And see themselves. Exactly.

And I have to say that when I first started doing this podcast, the first men that I approached, generally their response would be, I don't think I have have failed so I don't think I'm right for this podcast and most of the women would say I failed so much I can't choose just three and I think that's changed but right but do you think that there's a sort of gender difference oh emphatically I do I don't always think it's a bad thing either by the way actually in another part of my life I work for the NHS on I'm on the board of a national health service trust and that's really really helpful it really informs what I do at the BBC but I remember once being on an interview panel for a consultant's job and one of I think it was our medical director at the time asked the candidates to tell us about their

failures and on this occasion there were three men and there was one female candidate. She was the only one who could think of any failures. She got the job because as the male medical director said at the time, who trusts a medical person who claimed never to have made a mistake? That's really worrying. Not all men are like that. That's a sweeping generalization. But, and also not all women are keen to own their failings or failures either. So I think sometimes I do make very broad sweeping statements about the difference between women and men. And I actually don't think you can. It's an individual thing. But I think it's true as well. I'm 55. And that's a time when women probably feel more anxious and inept than at any other time

in their life while simultaneously also having more challenges than at any other time in their life and also curiously often feeling more capable too if any of that makes any sense. It does make sense because I suppose you're feeling anxious and inept as you put it because society still wrongly slightly marginalises older women. I think it wants to put us somewhere and keep us there, frankly. Yeah. But at the same time, as you say, you've accumulated all this life experience. And I do feel, I feel braver than at any other time in my life, actually, because I sort of slightly think, god you know chances are 20 years time so why not do something now while you can uh yes it's a strange time in lots of ways but not all

bad well the one of the failures that I would really love to discuss with you which was so interesting for me to read because I would never have thought it of you is your failure to listen that's how you put it and that's very interesting because you are such a good interviewer and broadcaster so how does that scan it's two things one this is sort of societal failure at the moment I think to listen to other people and to try to understand why other people think the way they do I'm not going to go into what's happening in Britain at the moment, but you know what I mean. I think we're all just becoming so intolerant of views that are not our own. And that's really, really got to stop. So I think that's part of it.

But my personal failure here is that I do listen to myself presenting. Funny enough, I don't really listen to Fortunately. I know, I wish in a way I didn't take part in it because I gather it really is quite good and people find it quite comforting and even quite funny, but I feel faintly absurd listening to it. So I don't really listen, although I have listened a bit. But I do listen to Woman's Hour when I've done it. Most days when I have done it, I will make an attempt to whiz through it later on. And I will just hear things, gaping errors that moments when I stepped in verbally and I shouldn't, stupid remarks I make a minute and a half later than I should have done. I just can't stop myself. It's a, I don't know what that is, a kind of scouts verbal tick. I just think, oh, I'll get in a funny remark now. Would have been really funny if I'd done it 45 seconds earlier, but by the time I get around to doing it, it doesn't really work.

And I just sometimes fail to ask the right question, possibly because I'm distracted by something, possibly because somebody's booming something in my headphones, whatever it might be. But I miss the opportunity to ask the really important question. Does anyone else ever say you miss that opportunity to ask that question? Oh yes, after every single edition of the programme we do go through what's happened and to go back to my days on Five Live, I don't remember

anybody at Five Live, it may not have been right by the way, criticising my presentation style or even ever really referencing it because we really didn't have the time. But at Radio 4 you are absolutely yes put through the mill after the program and told well I don't know why you did the interview that way or why did you ask that or why didn't you and I'm not saying that's wrong

but you probably need to develop quite a thick skin sometimes in order to adapt to it. And have you developed that thick skin? Well, sometimes I'd be the first to admit, I just think, actually, in the nicest possible way, love, what do you know? And of course, that is awful, and I don't say that, but if I'm honest, I am thinking it. I'm just thinking, what? You're 26. What do you know about interviewing blah whoever it might be?

I don't ever say it because that would clearly be wrong. But I know there's not a broadcaster in the world with a thick skin. I can't think of a single one. I think it was Terry Wogan who said radio is for the introverted egomaniac. And I think that's spot on. I think it's so true, though, that to be a good broadcaster or even a good writer or journalist, you have to allow yourself to feel because you need to be able to understand how other people might be feeling. And at the same time, you have to deal with constant criticism and constant online comments and what have you. And you need to develop this sort of semi-breathable skin a bit like Gore-Tex. Yes. Which is difficult to do. And I'm not sure I've reached that stage of, no, I haven't got there yet. Actually, it's interesting on social media, I don't get a lot of criticism. Well,

actually I probably just don't see it. I'm sure there is. I very rarely block people on Twitter. I think maybe I've done it twice. I think maybe it's because I don't and I don't rise to anything that I'm more or less left alone because I am quite a feminist yeah no I really I really am and you don't get sexist trolling or um maybe I'm just not looking in the right places I need to try are you offended that you're not offended enough? I'm livid. I'm not more angry about the appalling stuff I get sent. It's another failure. You say you've unearthed it.

Congratulations, you've unearthed another one. The one thing I can't bear is bad spelling and appalling grammar. And if people don't know where to put an apostrophe S, please. That's when you'll block them. That's when I'll just think, I'm really sorry. I'm delighted that you found my long interview about fecal incontinence extremely boring but if you're going to use it um make sure you know whether it needs an apostrophe or not i sound like terribly

carpy old bat but no i totally get it thank you but you must get lots of people asking you what the secret is to being a good interviewer what do you say no I don't thanks very much though for asking well I think it's basically if I were to be asked that question you've got to sound like you're enjoying yourself and you're happy to be there obviously it's not appropriate if you're discussing something deadly serious you've just got to be interested haven't you I would say academically for example I was bright rather than clever. And I'm bright enough to know how stupid I am. And I'm bright enough to know that there are loads of other people out there in the world who know so much more than me about everything. I also know I'm quite good

at eliciting information from those people and making it comprehensible to other people. I just really enjoy some of the expert voices that I get to talk to. I love talking to writers. I've interviewed you about some of your novels, and because books and reading just give me so much pleasure. And I'm honestly not just blowing smoke up your backside. Writers are my favourite interviewees. I'm less interested in showbiz folk, per se. Politicians I also like as well, actually. Such coincidence, because people called Jane are my

favourite interviewees. Really? Yes. Look at what's happened. Actually, you spoke recently about being called Jane. Yes. Because for ages it was seen as a sort of plain Jane. Oh, it's hideous. But now it's coming back into fashion, isn't it? I wish it was. I'm hoping that all my grandchildren,

regardless of their biological sex, are called Jane. I am going to insist on this. Yes, it's a middle name, I think, a bit now. I think people give their baby girls Jane as a middle name. Well, possibly because women of my age are now becoming grandmothers, so that's entirely logical. And what were you like as child jane oh just i think the child who wanted to be a bus conductress actually not bus conductor i

thought it was a bit like actor actress yeah well oh yes you're right actually i'm on thin ice here aren't i yes no you've okay you've won that one bus conductor which is my early ambition. Well, I was just very, very small, very undernourished of looking, freckly, very, very verbal, not terribly physical. So I couldn't walk until I was, I think, nearly three. And it's because I was just very fat and too busy talking to pay much attention to physical exercise. My mother claims that all I ate was shortbread fingers, which may account for my considerable girth. There are very few baby

photographs of me for a string of good reasons. I went to primary school in a place called Waterloo in Liverpool, in quite a working class sort of area. My family life changed a bit when I was 10 because my dad's parents, dad is an only child and his parents died and he got money from their house and we were able to buy a bigger house and move slightly further away from sort of up the coast to Crosby in Liverpool, which is where I spent most of my adolescence. And I went to a girl's independent school on a sort of partial scholarship under a scheme that doesn't exist anymore. And I think that was when I began to realise that I was nowhere near as clever as I thought I was. I was probably academically a bit of an outlier at my primary school,

and I was in the bottom probably five or six girls in my secondary school class. And that's quite a tough lesson to learn at 11 and 12 that, in my case, I was good at English when I really wasn't good at anything else. And you have one sister. Do you have other siblings? No, it's just my sister and I. Yeah, who is, she's two years younger than me. And she and I are now very close. And she has two sons. I've got two daughters. We, in adult life, have become extraordinarily close. But I think, actually, as children, we were quite... I was... She was blonde.

I was a brunette. I was probably labelled the clever one, and she was the cutesy one. And I think we probably both resented the labels that neither of us had... But I don't blame anybody for putting labels on us. That's what people do, isn't it? So that probably led to one or two skirmishes that we've happily grown out of,

and it wouldn't be seemly at 55 and 53 to still be physically fighting. We had our last physical fight in, I think, 1983. I actually love it when women talk about physical fights in the same way that I love fortunately for reclaiming something that for ages has been seen as a sort of man's thing. Yes yeah I don't trust women who don't have female friends and I feel a bit uneasy when you hear terms like oh she's a man's woman or I mean the way, that's a very judgmental thing to say,

and I probably would say this, wouldn't I? I think there's a lot to be said for women who seek out the company of other women and want to help other women and also hugely appreciate the support they get from their female friendships. So going back to that secondary school and the knock that your confidence took,

I'm interested because one of the failures that you sent, which is actually not one of the ones that I'd chosen to be one of your three, it's very complicated, but was your own tendency never to be seen to be trying too hard in case you don't succeed? And I wonder if it stems from that period of your life. I think it probably does. I would hate to be seen as one of those,

and this isn't a good thing, by the way, I would hate to be seen as one of those people who really tried hard oh she tries so hard but doesn't actually get anywhere i want to be seen as the wing it merchant who somehow pulls it off it's a bit of a dodgy thing to aim for and it doesn't always pay off but i'm self-aware enough now to know that i have that streak one of my friends said about me once, that the one thing they'll never have on your gravestone is, what a grafter she was.

And actually, in defence, I think that's changed slightly. I think I do work quite hard now. I think you work very hard from an outsider's perspective. Yes, but I remember at university as well, I didn't really work very hard at university. And there is no one to blame for the fact that I got a 2.2 and not a 2.1 but me and I'm really angry about that I'm angry with myself for simply not putting the effort in did you do English yes yeah although I did get an honorary doctorate from my university this summer so that makes it slightly swings and roundabouts it is swings and roundabouts isn't it

yes I yes that's right, actually. I'm very interested in your maternal grandmother, who I understand lived with you. She did, yes, yes. What was her name and what was she like? Mary Esther O'Neill was my maternal grandmother, and she was about, I think she's about 4ft 10, 4ft 11. I have outgrown her by at least 2½ inches.

And if you're my age, you should look to your grandmothers as your sort of benchmark for how your life might have been. And I think if you're someone of my age, you need to think about the incredible strides that women's lives, the opportunities I have had, she could never have dreamt of. And she did live with us after my granddad died. And so she was at home with us for the last, I'm just thinking, for the last eight years of her life, just between me going to secondary school and then actually leaving for university. She died the following year. Even then, it was quite unusual to have your grandmother living with you. I think it was actually of huge benefit, although she never left my sister or I in any doubt about the perils of old age. She was a lady who enjoyed poor health and was one of those people who sat

very still and said things like, I'm just going to get up to shut that door, which actually meant, will somebody for God's sake, shut that door. And she used to read the Liverpool Daily Post, the Liverpool Echo, any books that she could come into contact with. But she left school at, well, had to leave school because her father died. And actually in a great maritime disaster, which people forget about. It was the sinking of the Lusitania in 1915, and my great-grandfather was an electrical storm, and he drowned along with hundreds of others.

And she then had to, I mean, it was 1915, so I don't think many girls were educated beyond a certain age. But anyway, she had to leave school and get work at that point. And so I think for her, the kind of professional life I have had I think she'd be delighted but I and my sister as well she her mind would just be utterly boggled by it actually. What work did she get age 15? I think she was started working in an office I mean she was a my mum as well as all I should say is a clever woman but women simply did not get opportunities the

class system is still out there and still at work and still has huge impacts on how we live and how we think we should be and I would say I was I was lower middle class and now I'm emphatically middle middle class and my children are probably also that but might end up something else and people think oh you shouldn't say these things it doesn't matter but it I'm afraid in Britain it still does matter I'm troubled even by the fact that I've referenced class but I still think I think it's hugely significant I think we wish that it didn't matter yes but the fact is that it does because it's part of your identity and where you come from and it's extremely important. Yes I think also in terms of pay and other things like that I was resistant to questioning too much

because there was always a part of me that thought as other people have in fact said to me haven't you been lucky and I have and you think yes well I've been so lucky. and I have. And you think, yes, well, I've been so lucky. Well, that brings us on to your second failure, which is absolutely about equal pay. So there was a big equal pay row at the BBC when it emerged, the gender pay disparity was absolutely atrocious. And you put it as your failure to appreciate fully what women were really up against in terms of pay until the BBC salaries were made public. So tell us what happened when those salaries were made public. Were you as, I mean, you must have been terribly shocked. Well, possibly not as shocked as some other people, because in the years before that,

I think there was a time when my children were younger, and I got divorced, and I'd become effectively, I mean, a single parent is a loaded term. And my ex-husband is very much a part of the children's lives and all the rest of it. But I was, to all intents and purposes, a woman bringing up two children and working. And I was also, to go back to being lucky, very fortunate financially. I've never had a day's destitution or anything like it in my life, I need to make absolutely clear. So I'm not in any way claiming hardship, but I was preoccupied. I had my head down. I was trying to do everything right as far as I could for the children. I was also trying to do my job, keep my job. I mean, there's no guarantee that once you've got a job

like a presenter on Radio 4 that you'll always have that fantastic job. So I wasn't thinking or even wondering very much about how much I was paid for doing what I did. I was just trying to do it well enough to keep it. And then this is an incredibly long story and you'd have to be the biggest BBC anorak on earth to want to hear the whole thing. There may be some people out there, but I put it to you, this is probably a separate podcast. More than willing to do that with you great don't talk to me about money though and I had done another program for radio 4 it was a live radio show and I got paid for it and I looked at how much I was paid for it and I thought shit this is what because

this is a lot more than I get paid for woman's hour and then I had a conversation with Claire Balding this is how long ago this was. This is ages and ages ago. And it came back to me at this point when I noticed the disparity. Claire had stood in for me on Woman's Hour. Now that just shows you how long ago this was that Claire Balding was scraping around for work and was prepared to stand in for me on holiday when I went off. And she spoke to me afterwards and said and said wow you don't get much for presenting women's hair do you and I sort of thought don't I but I compartmentalized and moved on and were you getting paid per episode well it was it's about this where it does get really complicated at the time I wasn't on the staff of the BBC and I got a program rate and Claire had got the same

program rate and I'm imagining that program rate is in the hundreds. Yes, it is. This is why it's all relative. I mean that in a way, which is like, I think you were being underpaid because it wasn't in the thousands. I don't get 10 million quid for doing an episode of Woman's Hour. No, not now and not then. What I'm angry about is the fact that I can picture Claire and I by the lift at Broadcasting House having this conversation in what logically must have been 2009. Claire might remember, I know she has talked about this as well, but I forgot. And then fast forward six or seven years and I noticed this difference between another Radio 4 show and Woman's Hour. And then the BBC, again, very long story, it was pushed into publishing its presenter salaries.

And there it was in black and white what we had all suspected, that in fact, the BBC is paying, was paying a lot of white men a great deal of money. And there were no women amongst the really, really high earners back then. There have been real changes since then, I should say. But what I really want to make clear is that I really do strongly feel that I had been completely blind to what was only too obvious happening around me. And if it was happening to me, a white, by now middle, middle class woman with vocal skills, what the hell would be happening to women of colour, whether they worked at the BBC or anywhere else? What would happen to women now juggling three or four zero hours contract jobs and trying to bring up their kids in inadequate social housing or

whatever it might be? It's because we have a voice at the BBC that I feel this absolute fervour. It's as close as I've ever come to fervour in my life, that if we can't fight this battle, when women at Glasgow City Council, for example, have done it, at Birmingham City Council, at some of the major supermarkets, they have done it. And if women like that have done it, then for us not to even try to cause a stink would be just the most appalling failure well i think you're absolutely spot on there and i think part of the reason the me too movement gather momentum and harvey weinstein was finally able to be brought down was because celebrities spoke out for the first time and that had a trickle-down effect but even with me too it was

started by women of color wasn't it wasn't a white middle-class thing at all. It sort of became one or it's now thought of as being one when those BBC figures came out. And whilst I think people know that I was involved in the initial stages of that, I mean, movement is probably too grand a word, although actually it kind of has become a movement now. We got some signatures together and got a letter published in the Sunday Telegraph in the July of 2017 and the important thing about that was getting as many names on that protest letter as we could right across BBC World Service and all other sorts of BBC radio and television and we got we did get fantastic support. So what were the practicalities of getting the signatories for that letter? Was there a big WhatsApp group?

Oh, I can't reveal. I really couldn't say. What I do remember about it was that was a weekend. It was particularly grey. You know, there's awful summer weekends, particularly in London, actually, where it's just grey and clammy. It was one of those weekends. And I didn't get dressed properly, properly. I just had on elasticated waist tracksuit bottoms

and didn't wash my hair and spent the whole weekend liaising with a couple of other BBC women and trying to get as many signatures as we could get together for this letter. And I think I probably spent about 19 hours out of 24 just hammering the phones, any kind of contact that I could think of. I remember one reading,

I wanted Angela Rippon to sign the letter and fantastically, I managed to track her down and she was on holiday with Elaine Page. And I- Stop, that's my childhood right there. It's just incredible. And I just, I thought, wow, but who on earth, if you'd asked me the week before, will you be spending any part of your Saturday next week on the phone to actually read on an Elaine Page? You'd have said no. Anyway,

they're both signed up. That was great. The reason I was safe, I thought, to get involved was that even I knew they couldn't sack a presenter on a women's programme for sticking up for women. I think I just realised that even the BBC, which sometimes can dig itself into holes, wouldn't do that. So I felt quite protected. Did you also feel a sense of rage when these men's over-inflated salaries were made public I mean what was it like walking down a corridor and passing one of these men what was the atmosphere there are very few of them on woman's hour so that was all right we don't see a lot of Gary Lineker on the fifth floor at broadcasting house he's very welcome to pop in you see it's really difficult because I

I love football for example I absolutely do but we have to understand that we live in a world where a man who used to kick balls for a living now earns an enormous amount of money talking about men young enough to be his sons kicking balls for a living. And that is all deemed much more important than a woman talking, in my case, about women's health or politics or whatever it might be. Now, I'm not, Gary Lineker brings pleasure to millions. I and Woman's Hour bring pleasure to slightly fewer people, some would argue. And it's two very different things. But also, women and men value women and men very differently. Men really rate other men, and a lot of women at the top also rate men really, really highly, without actually even realising that they're doing it. And there's a streak of that in me as well. I've really had to have a word with myself

about the way I think about the way things work. And there are subtler points here as well. Claudia Winkleman is, I think, the BBC's highest paid woman. I think she has a first class degree from Cambridge, but she doesn't earn her money for her almighty brain. She earns her money by being fantastically entertaining and very Claudia Winkleman on Strictly. But that isn't like the way we value men at the very top. It's troubling. And there are questions for all of us here. There really are, including lots and lots of women.

Can I ask you, it might be an inappropriate question. So if so, just tell me to get lost. Do you have conversations with your ex-husband about this? Because your ex-husband is Adrian Childs. And he ticks many of those boxes that you've just identified. You see, it's really interesting you mentioned that I have talked to him about it I'm I'm I was just thinking this if anything I feel that I was saying this to a female colleague this morning I feel that

some of the men at the BBC could have done a lot more to help Adrian for a start he's got two daughters so he I know would feel that he would hate to be thought of as someone who didn't understand the complexities of all this and wasn't on side. But I think in common with a lot of other men, he, I don't know how I can phrase it, would have been really good if some of the high profile male presenters at the BBC, not necessarily those with daughters, but yes, even better if they did have daughters, if they had skin in the old gender game in the years ahead, had actually pitched in and said, we back you and we get this. ever hope to understand about the challenges of being a white woman never mind a woman of color or a disabled person or I just don't think they can be can they be expected to get it you're right because in a way it's like you can't be held accountable for the thing that systemically you've never experienced and you can't see because you've been born into a world made in your image and yet one can be held accountable because at some point you have to ask those questions and you have to wake up and become woke because life isn't an exercise in narcissism life is actually about connection with other people and understanding

where other people are coming from well you really hope really hope so, wouldn't you? You would. I'm still battling with it myself about, do men understand that in the past, probably their grandmothers like mine wouldn't have had the opportunities. And then my generation, we've been given, as I've already said, working lives that our female relatives couldn't have dreamt of. So we've had the opportunities. But the truth of it is that I will retire not having earned as much as very, very many of my male counterparts as presenters. I'm not talking about producers, because producers at the BBC do not earn a great deal of money. I'm talking about equivalent male broadcasters to me will have earned more than me, will have very different retirements, will have very different prospects financially in the rest of their life. And

whose fault is that exactly? I don't really know. It sounds as well as if you're wrestling with the idea of your own internalised misogyny. I think we all are well I think the me too movement the secondary movement around Harvey Weinstein is interesting to me personally because when that started happening I thought oh well I'm lucky because I've never been the quote-unquote victim of sexual harassment I've never had to deal with that and then actually when I saw what other women were putting on Twitter with the hashtag me too I thought oh well no I've had those experiences I mean obviously I didn't know

they counted exactly yeah and I think it's that so many of us just got used to playing by the rules of someone else's game and now we're questioning the entire system yes and I'm just thinking back to something really difficult that a female legal expert said to me relatively recently about rape juries and the fact that it's a thought that women on rape juries are not necessarily a good thing always because they might well look at the complainant. might well look at the complainant and I mean I take myself as an example I don't know how to phrase this but I have never been raped but like you I've probably had no I have had incidents that I've somewhat well shouldn't have happened but I certainly haven't ever been raped in all conscience how would I react if I were to ever be on a rape jury would I think about the complainant well you see I've been very careful I've always looked after myself and made sure that I wasn't vulnerable to those things what was she thinking of doing

that I'm really worried that I might actually not be able to stop those thoughts this is why it just gets so that's a very honest admission and I think that as you're saying it, are you saying that would be wrong of me to think that? Yes, it would be wrong. It would be really wrong of me. But that's where you're right. The misogyny, the internalised misogyny thing is in all of us because women, girls are made to be more judgmental. I don't know I don't what do you think of with your daughters because they are what they're 19 and 16 now yes and it's really difficult and like every parent I have had those I want them to be able to go out in the world dressed however they want but I have also stood at the bottom of the stairs and said, you can't go out like that. And they say, why not? And I say, because the world isn't the way I want it to be. It's the way it is. Therefore, you can't wear that skirt. And I have to say, it's probably, well, it would

be different if I had sons. I might actually find that even harder. I think one of the most difficult things at the moment is porn and the prevalence of it and the access to it. And the reluctance of most of us to properly engage with the conversation about what the hell this is doing. You're clearly a feminist. Oh, clearly. Are your daughters feminist without even having to ask the question I don't think I can answer that for them really no it would

actually be quite anti-feminist for you to do that sorry I think what would they say you see the truth is until relatively recently going back to my failure of not realizing what was happening around me I might have said well however I wanted to become a radio presenter after the bus conductor thing fell away? And I became one. So I might have said to you 15 years ago, what's the big problem? What I didn't know 15 years ago was that I was, yes, I was presenting a radio programme alongside a man who probably earned more than me for doing the same three hourhour live radio show so yeah that's not an answer to your question but it's nevertheless taking me to places i'd rather not go well you're too good at this now that's a compliment thank you um but we're talking at

time in fact you have walked here from samira ahmed's tribunal employment tribunal, because she found out that she was being paid 14% of what an equivalent male presenter was being paid. And yet her equivalent programme had double the audience. Now, we don't know how that tribunal is going to go. No, it's only, well, it's day two, actually, of the hearing. It could go on for another week. What do you think that this employment tribunal tells us about where we are now? Is it a positive thing? I think the fact that we've got this far, or she has got this far, and been prepared to get this far, is encouraging in one way.

It struck me today, actually, in fact, I sent her a message just saying that I hadn't realised the enormity of it and how brave you have to be. I probably could have pursued a similar case, and I, in the spirit of transparency, as we're here, I just took a pay rise. Now, that was honestly because I don't have her courage. Well, I think it's already been reported, so there's no harm. I mysteriously was suddenly worth 30 grand a year more than the week before. Now, the BBC has never been asked why I suddenly was but it's really difficult I just struck me sitting in that room today it's actually a dramatic event happening as a lot of legal events do in

almost real time but slowed down there's you know what courtrooms are like on the telly they're really dramatic and there's always something happening and it's fabulous and everybody's very erudite and in full flow and in fact this is in a sort of grotty little room off High Hoban it was freezing cold and most of the morning was taken up with bits of paper being shuffled across the room and nobody really saying anything there's a lack of drama but it's also really important but there are a lot of competent slick looking BBC legal representatives there. And I'm sure Samira would agree that it was potentially pretty intimidating to be her. She's a brave woman. Well, we stand with Samira and more power to her. Coming on to your third failure,

you prefaced this in your email to me saying, I feel like I've talked about this a lot, so maybe it would be boring to do again but I've actually never heard you talk about your miscarriage and that's an inelegant segue into trying to ask you to talk about it well actually I had three and I think it's it is important to talk about this sort of thing because if you don't, then it becomes in some way something that you ought to be ashamed of in some way. And also I should preface anything I say by saying I still don't really know why I had three miscarriages. There could be a string of reasons, including I was in my 30s. was in my 30s and you know frankly the best age to get pregnant and carry through a pregnancy without incident is arguably not in your late 30s so I was 34 so it's not old but there is a

possibility which we can't ignore that in fact it's one of those things but it did happen three times rather than just once in succession no I was, I was luckier than that, I should say, and I think that would have been... I'm not sure I'd have had any children if I'd had three miscarriages before I had a child. I hugely admire any woman who has successive miscarriages without having a child and keeps going. So I had a miscarriage very shortly after I got married.

Well, it started over Christmas, which was great. Anyone who's ever been pregnant will know that you do feel really weird when you're pregnant. And then you also know when something's changed. And I actually remember thinking on Christmas Day, I don't, I just feel a bit different. Then I started bleeding early in January, I think it was, and I ended up in hospital. And then I did have my eldest daughter. So she was born in December of 1999. And I had the miscarriage the previous Christmas.

So in that respect, I was extraordinarily fortunate to get pregnant again so quickly. And I didn't, I should say as well, that I never had any trouble getting pregnant, which is another really lucky break. And then I had two miscarriages in 2001. That was really, really tough. And I had one beginning of the year, then one towards the middle of the year. And I just thought, I don't think I can do this anymore. The worst thing about it was, just thought, I don't think I can do this anymore. The worst thing about it was that, and I'm sure this will resonate with other people, but I had a miscarriage on holiday in Wales and was taken to hospital and went in for a DNC, which is the operation that they, what's that awful?

End of pregnancy remains. The end of pregnancy remains. And it's so excruciating and i think a lot of the language around miscarriage is really unfortunate unpleasant and expressions like missed abortion are things that we really have to i think we need to revisit and we need to reinvent all these things because it's so dreadful and because it was it's a dnc medical people will know what this is there's something in coutelage yeah it's actually sorry i misspoke it's early pregnancy remains it was a freudian slip when i said yeah carry on sorry yes when you're having a dnc it is i mean it's clearly not regarded as a medical emergency so i was at the absolute

end of the surgery list for that day I think I'd been given some painkillers or something and I was I was just waiting to go into theatre and eventually at the end of this the day in August I was wheeled into the operating theatre and the theatre nurse I had I was had a clipboard with my notes you know lying across my tummy and the theatre nurse picked up the clipboard, looked at it and just said, oh, this is your second miscarriage this year. And I just didn't speak.

And she said, what have you done to deserve this? And she was trying to be, and in fact she was, being sympathetic. I just, that was the point at which I started crying. I just thought, I can't, don't be nice to me. Please don't be nice to me. Because I just can't I cannot take this anymore this was at the Swansea Hospital actually so in fact we did I remember Adrian my

ex-husband wrote to them afterwards and just said thank you for treating us us it was there are two people involved here with such sensitivity and they were amazing on that occasion. And the NHS can obviously be truly amazing. I nearly didn't go and try and have another child, but I'm obviously incredibly glad that I did. It was my fifth pregnancy and I got pregnant five times in five years, which actually is testament to my good fortune in being able to do that. I should also say I've got a slightly, if anyone is listening and has a similar thing, they'll understand what I mean. I've got a slightly if anyone is listening and has a similar thing

they'll understand what i mean i've got a bicornuate uterus so do i do you yes is yours more bicornuate than mine well they don't know whether it's actually bicornuate or whether i have a septum is what i discovered when i froze my eggs okay so i like you had a miscarriage and the experience sounds so freakishly similar in the sense that I was down at the bottom of a list in a hospital over a weekend and I also wrote to the nurses on that ward for having been so especially sensitive and kind it really was because at the time and I don't know if you relate to this but I didn't feel worthy of that level of attention because in my head it wasn't I'd failed to produce a baby so I couldn't be mourning something that I didn't have and it was only several months

afterwards that I realized how sad I was I think you were totally entitled to be extremely sad, I should say. And I think I've tried to find the right word for how you feel after a miscarriage. I think the closest I've ever come to is depleted. And that's really not adequate. But you feel utterly spent and ragged and hopeless. And it's a really tough thing to go through I think and again after that third miscarriage I was really very lucky to get referred to the miscarriage unit at St Mary's

Paddington I've got to be a bit careful I don't think I was actually a serious enough case to get referred to but I had a sympathetic gp and because when i got there i realized that some of the women they were treating at st mary's had had 17 miscarriages and how the hell you drag yourself through the weeks and i just have absolutely no idea can they operate on a bicornuate uterus it means that the uterus isn't the right shape or it's known as a heart-shaped heart-shaped yeah so it means that it that it hasn't properly evolved into a fully shaped uterus and that happens when you yourself are in the womb so there's nothing anyone can do about it no one knows if it actually affects it

fertility or not but what it does do it i think it makes you more susceptible to breach births and therefore i don't know if you had cesareans. I did. Well, both the girls were breach babies, yeah. So my understanding is they can operate, but the operation itself is relatively serious. And so therefore, it needs to be quite a dramatic case. And I don't think mine is dramatic enough to do that. Unfortunately, it can have quite dramatic effect on you, can't it? I know they use words like yours isn't dramatic enough.

I think they probably said the same thing. How dare you say my uterus is not dramatic i've done everything in my power to give you the most dramatic uterus my uterus is gloria swanson in sunset boulevard yes my uterus can give you everything i think one in four women do have a miscarriage or 25 of pregnancies end in a miscarriage so it's not uncommon but I don't know that many other women who've had more than one miscarriage or or even actually I'm just trying to think I think one of my friends has had a miscarriage my sister's also had three I should say so she and I had that in common she also has a slightly bicornuate uterus I always want my uterus to be slightly more bicornuate than hers and I think that, that's just a genetic fluke as far as I understand it.

And my own daughters, I have asked about this, are unlikely to be similarly affected. Every single time I went to the loo in my pregnancies after the first miscarriage, I just thought, well, I'm going to be bleeding. What am I going to do if I, what am I going to do? It just, it takes away some of the joy of the pregnancy, really, if I'm honest. And do those miscarriages feel like a failure? I think they felt like an absolute failure at the time. I've definitely put them into perspective now, obviously. Also, I've got two healthy children,

and that's something I am extraordinarily grateful for, I should say. But I don't think I've ever felt worse in my life than after that third miscarriage. And I should say I've led a very very fortunate life in many many respects that's just grim as an experience and I think unless we talk about it more openly then that stigma of failure is not going to go away I remember thinking if I could I would just give anything to have another child and when my youngest daughter was born I mean I should say that she's capable of being an absolute nightmare however I remember when she arrived and we do laugh about

this she was a she was a strange looking strange looking baby I remember locking eyes with her or looking at her for the first time and just thinking okay that thank you that no that's enough that's brilliant and this is all I need and she is genuinely one of life's great joys and and brings me and her dad and her sister even a huge amount of pleasure but it's really really tough and I think as that very well-meaning theatre nurse said there is a sense that the language around fertility is designed to make women specifically feel like failures. So what have you done to deserve this? You're failing to respond to these drugs. You're failing to hold on to your pregnancy.

These are all ways of speaking that make you feel really rotten. And you feel rotten anyway, don't you? I think it's a tremendous low physiologically and psychologically a miscarriage because all those feel-good pregnancy hormones are just careering towards the door marked exit and you're just left feeling like the old proverbial worn-out rag. And then you actually have to think, oh my God, perhaps I'm going to have to try. It's not a barrel of glass for anybody involved in that business. I really do feel that we probably do need to bring it out into the open a bit more.

I know you've talked about it before and I know other women have talked about it. And it is a very run-of-the-mill experience, but it's surprisingly still not something that is talked about as often as lots and lots of other stuff that is much less common. And can I ask whether you still think about those miscarriages now that you have two children? Much less than I did, but I still do. I have to be honest, this is slightly odd, but the second of those two miscarriages in 2001, you know, you're always given a due date

when you find out you're pregnant. And the date, this is terribly, well, it's a bit mawkish, but it's never, it's a fact. The due date for the second miscarriage of 2001 was the 11th of September, 2001. And I remember that day for obvious reasons, but I had been in the park that morning with my she was then 18 months old my eldest daughter and I was feeling really

this is I remembered the date I wasn't sure anybody else would and it was I don't think anybody else did actually and I was feeling a bit down and but it was a particularly beautiful day it was a beautiful day in New York and it was a beautiful day in London. And we were in the park and then I... But she'd been up in the night, she'd been teething or something. And this is a terrible thing to say as a working mother, but there was a part of me that just thought, I just can't wait to get to work and just have a bit of a rest.

And it happened to be that day. So I was on Five Live at the time, which meant that I was doing a rolling news programme that started at four o'clock, and that day obviously became a day like no other in my working life. Nevertheless, it's a peculiar fact that my mind earlier in the day had been somewhere else completely. I haven't thought about that for ages, but that is absolutely true.

It's interesting. My due date was around the same time as princess charlotte was born and i always think of that now when there are royal pregnancies about the women who get pregnant at the same time and then have this permanent reminder because we're so obsessive about royal pregnancies but I can't thank you enough for sharing those experiences with us because as you say it's hugely profoundly important for other women and men who are going through it to hear people talk about it I just hope that people understand that it doesn't mean if you've had one miscarriage, you'll have any more, never mind many more, but you might. And if you feel really shit after having one, you absolutely need to know that you're allowed to feel that way. This is no place for a stiff upper lip. It's about the most traumatising thing that I think that can happen to women, apart from the obvious other alternatives.

I mean, happy to talk about it is the wrong word, but you know what I mean. I think it's hugely important. And I think I have talked to my children about it because I think that all women should know, young girls should know, it's a possibility that it's something that you need to understand might happen to you. We didn't even get onto your failure to learn an instrument, Jane. Well, I can blow my own trumpet. I actually used to learn, I used to play the trumpet, so I literally blew my own trumpet.

What kind of lip shape do you have to do for that? I'm not, I mean, it's like a purse. You're not prepared to do it? Okay. It's like, like that. Right. You have to actually make a sound. Like that? That's it, yeah. Well, you see, I could do that. I just, it's like a purse. You're not prepared to do it. Okay. It's like, like that. Right. You have to actually make a sound. Like that. Yeah.

Well, you see, I could do that. I just haven't been given the opportunity. What instrument would you have learned? Oh, the bassoon, I think, Elizabeth. Yes, I think so. Obviously. Yes. Instead of Woman's Hour, the continuity person could just say,

and now you're going to hear a 44 and a half minute long recital on her bassoon from not yet dame jane garvey that would be great how has this experience been for you jane coming on this podcast and being interviewed i've realized i'm not sure i like it that is i mean i like the podcast i'm just not sure i like being interviewed you can just sound a bit of a tick can't you that's the problem you can but you haven't oh okay all right thanks you so, so much for coming on How to Fail. Even if you didn't particularly enjoy it, I absolutely loved it.

No, I enjoyed it really. And I'm hugely grateful for the opportunity. Thank you. If you enjoyed this episode of How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, I would so appreciate it if you could rate, review and subscribe. Apparently it helps other people know that we exist.