How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S6, Ep5 How to Fail: Shirlie Kemp

Episode Date: October 23, 2019

Today, I welcome Shirlie Kemp to the podcast. She was an 80s icon: a backing dancer for Wham! who ACTUALLY APPEARED IN THE MUSIC VIDEO FOR 'LAST CHRISTMAS', as well as being a best friend to George Michael until his untimely death in 2016 at the age of 53. She was also one-half of the pop duo Pepsi & Shirlie and the wife of Martin Kemp, of Spandau Ballet fame (fun fact: their son, Roman, is the Capital Radio DJ).Shirlie joins me to talk about what went on behind the scenes of fame and her memories of George, including the last conversation they ever had. She talks about her challenging council estate upbringing, feeling a failure at school and developing an eating disorder in her teens. We also discuss her long journey to self-confidence as a woman and how she and Martin coped with his brain tumour diagnosis in 1995, and what got them through those tough times as a couple. And we touch on the mean photography teacher whose criticism she will NEVER FORGET (but more fool him, because now she's an amazing photographer so there).Thank you for coming on How To Fail, Shirlie: you are truly the loveliest woman.  *The How To Fail Live tour has now started! I will be at various venues around the UK and Ireland over the next two months, sharing my failure manifesto with the help of some very special guests. Limited tickets left! These events are not recorded as podcasts so the only way to be there is to book tickets via www.faneproductions.com/howtofail* The Sunday Times Top 5 bestselling book of the podcast, How To Fail: Everything I've Ever Learned From Things Going Wrong by Elizabeth Day, is out now and is available here.*Shirlie and Martin Kemp are releasing a joint album, In The Swing of It, next month. You can pre-order it here.* This season of How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted by Elizabeth Day, produced by Naomi Mantin and Chris Sharp and sponsored by Sweaty Betty. Sweaty Betty are offering listeners 20% off full-price items with the code HOWTOFAILTo contact us, email [e-mail]* Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayShirlie Kemp @shirliekempSweaty Betty @sweatybetty          Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by card. Other conditions apply. This season of How to Fail with Elizabeth Day is sponsored by Sweaty Betty. I first came across Sweaty Betty when I was a university student because a friend of mine actually called me Sweaty Betty as a nickname and I soon discovered that actually Sweaty Betty isn't just a funny name but a fantastic activewear brand designed to last for years and years. I personally have had a pair of

leggings that have done me very very well for at least five years. Sweaty Betty is made to make you feel power, to make you feel motivated to move and their leggings and their vests feel like a second skin. You can tell that the products are designed by an all-female team. I'd love for you to have the same experience as me with Sweaty Betty and so they are offering 20% off full price products with the code HOWTOFAIL. Thank you very much to Sweaty Betty. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how

to succeed better. I'm your host, author and journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned from failure. For many of us, Shirley Kemp would have provided the soundtrack to our youth. As a backing singer for Wham!, she featured in videos for classic 80s hits such as Club Tropicana and Last Christmas. Later, as one half of the duo, Pepsi and Shirley, she had two top 10 hits. Later still, she and her daughter appeared in the video for the Spice Girls single Mama. Music clearly runs in the family. Her son Roman is a radio DJ and her husband Martin is a former member of Spandau Ballet. The couple are about to release their first joint album, In the Swing of It, featuring two tracks written by their daughter, Harley Moon.

Kemp grew up in Watford, one of five children. At the local comprehensive, she was the year above George Michael and Andrew Ridgely. In fact, Ridgely was her boyfriend for two years, and it was he who suggested she come and join the band that would later become Wham! and work its way into music history. She was close friends with George Michael until his untimely death at just 53 in 2016. It was George who first introduced her to her husband, even accompanying the couple on their first date, at Shirley's insistence. Later, he became godfather to her son. George was someone who I loved and who loved me very much, Kemp said in 2017. We knew each other for over 40 years and we laughed so much together.

Shirley Kemp, welcome to How to Fail. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming on. And such a pleasure. Thank you also for saying that you were going to take part and talk a little bit about George Michael, which I know must be such an emotional thing still for you to talk about. Yeah, it really is. Because obviously, as I said to you I don't really I never spoke about George to anyone when he was alive it was a private relationship so you know obviously he passed away so it's once again I don't want to kind of be seen talking about him but of course I've got amazing cherished memories so can I ask you about those school days and the first time

you met him well funny enough I was a year above George and Andrew so I was always looking at the boys in the year above me I remember seeing them at school but my memory of George at school was the boy who used to talk around with the violin case and I was very punky at school and George and Andrew looked very normal to me, kind of middle class boys. But I wasn't. And I was nothing like them. I came from a council estate background. They lived on private houses. So I could feel there was a difference between us.

I didn't really have a chemistry then. And it wasn't until I left school that I bumped into Andrew again. And we were in a pub in Bushy and he shouted Shirley. I thought wow he's grown up a lot because you kind of looked at the young kids and I thought oh wow he looks quite nice now and he says oh I always remembered you at school you were so punky and you had all those feather earrings in. I honestly didn't really as I say take any notice of them and so we kind of caught up and then he said oh you ought to come and see our band because he knew I love music. So I went along. Then there was George. I thought, oh, the boy who used to hold the violin case. We didn't really hang out

at school. I think George was still at school, though, because I'd obviously left. And you know, when you meet someone, you just instantly there's attraction. I don't know how we know this, but you just bond with someone. And I think the key thing that we were both kind of kind and sensitive, and we just clicked immediately. And he was the first person I think I'd ever sat down and had a real heart-to-heart with, and him with me. And I'd never had that with anyone else.

So we could sit for hours and hours. It was like my agony aunt and I was like his agony aunt. Was there a violin in the violin case? Or was it just for show? Yes, he did play violin because my form room was the music room. So they would be standing outside our form room waiting to come and play. And sometimes we would stand by the door and just hear. Yeah, so he definitely learned that was his first instrument he learned to play and is it true that you first started sort of doing dance routines and that's how you became

a backing singer and you were still living with your parents yeah we were all living with our parents we're all still so young I mean I think George and Andrew were 16 17 and I was 18 we all lived at home and we used to go to George's house because he had the bigger house and we'd all hang out in his bedroom the first thing that we did we just loved music all of it he had posters in his room of spandau and human league I always loved music why we connected we love music we love dancing so we would practice dance we what there was no band at this time I always loved music. Why we connected, we loved music. We loved dancing. So we would practice dance. There was no band at this time.

We'd practice dance routines in his bedroom so that when we went clubbing, we could dance. It was so, you know, this doesn't happen anymore. I think it was the last of it. And we used to go clubbing and I just really loved dancing with him as well. There was something, our timing, and it's not easy to kind of partner up with dance. You've got to have that absolute same rhythm. I could see the joy in his face. He really loved it.

You could see him light up. One time I remember we were dancing and the dance floor kind of cleared and it was just me and him. His eyes were just sparkling, looking at me as if to say, we've got this, we've got this this but I never thought any further about this becoming something it's just what we did on a Friday or Wednesday on new romantic nights so that was all it was about really how magical and I'm always really interested in the magnitude of fame and what effect that might have on friendships but did it feel like you and he were always the same people it did but what happens I I think, with fame. So going back to the boys started doing these PAs, but they realised, oh, we don't want to stand up on our own.

So that's how I became involved, really, because we would start dancing on stage with the boys. So what happened was we did a show at Stringfellows and we thought we'd really made it. This was like, wow, we're in Peter Stringfellows and we thought we'd really made it this was like wow we're in Peter Stringfellows club we're performing and at the end of that performance a lady came up to us and said would you like to do Saturday morning superstore we'd never been on television I mean I had no idea and after we'd done that I'd gone into Watford which was our local kind of town and got recognised and I thought oh I don't know if I like this and then I saw the difference with George and Andrew how they handled it really well and it kind of

supported maybe their ego what they wanted when you think do people change once they get famous maybe they're sitting in their comfort zone anyway so it definitely wasn't my comfort zone it took off worldwide and they were in demand so for me the hardest part was I'd lost two best friends because we just used to go swimming dancing hanging out in the bedroom and that was all over and for me that was really painful because it had all gone serious it's all a business now and you've got managers and secretaries people telling you what time you can see George or no you can't speak to him now can I give him a message so on Sirius it's all a business now and you've got managers and secretaries and people telling you what time you can see George or no you can't speak to him now can I give him a message so

that affected me deeply and did you also feel that there were all these screaming fans who felt that they knew your best friends but they didn't really did it feel like you had to give up no I don't because I really understood what the boys were doing. You know, I was thrilled because one of the first songs that Andrew ever played me was Careless Whisper. Wow. And I was like, I can't believe that's him singing. I had an absolutely intense feeling of this is going to go worldwide. I've never heard anything like it.

So there was a part of me that knew he was on this journey. This was his path. I loved watching them around the fans because, as I say, with men, you've got all these screaming girls. They loved it. But I never saw the fans as a threat and sometimes the fans would want to befriend me and Pepsi

so that they could obviously get closer to George and Andrew. What's it like every Christmas hearing Last Christmas? It just brings a really big smile to my face because that video was, as lovely as it face because that video was as lovely as it looks. It really was as authentic because it was all of us friends. Even the director was our friend. Everything the director asked us to do, we did opposite. So in the end, everyone was just crying with laughter and there was this snowball fight that everyone got hurt, people in their eye and George's hair got wet. So I just love it when I see that video. I think I'm so lucky I have that.

Yeah, it's a really lovely feeling to see that it comes back every year. Did George mind his hair getting wet? Oh, he had a hairdresser there. I will get onto your first failure now, even though I could ask you sort of pop trivia from this classic decade forever and ever. But your first failure is about your school days, which we just touched on there. And it's interesting that what came out of your school days was wham, because when you were at school, you felt like you were failing, didn't you? And I've never thought of it like that.

That's a good way. So yeah, maybe I should think, because I always regret the school I went to. I was always thinking I should have gone to a Montessori school. I'm very sensitive. I'm a visual learner. I'm artistic, but not in the way that a school would see that you should be artistic so actually if I hadn't gone to Bushmeets I wouldn't have met George and Andrew so it's not a failure then no exactly this

is the whole premise of the podcast absolutely yeah well I was thinking failure is intervention because sometimes when you're stopped from doing something I believe there's something else there for you I totally agree yeah most of my failures have had an intervention yes they've taken you on a different path that you felt more comfortable on maybe just opened up another door that I didn't see but what was school like for you at the time okay so my childhood was quite chaotic there were five of us in the house. It was a small, tiny house and there was no structure. I wasn't taught to read or write before I went to school. I was never read a book. I was the fourth child, so I was kind of left

to it. So I would just copy whatever my brother and sisters were doing. But I had a very close relationship with my mum and my mum loved to sit on the sofa with her cigarette in her hand, no shoes on bare feet watching lovely old movies so I've still got such a passion for the old movies and she'd make me tea very sweet cups of tea so that was my comfort zone so when I went to school the first day the smell of the class I didn't like the smell and sitting on this cold hard plastic chair and then my friend started writing something and I just froze. I just found that everyone was way ahead of me.

When I went to look at my best friend, she put her arm around her work. And I just remember crying. I remember my whole body just got like in absolute tears. And the teacher wasn't very sympathetic. And there was another time when the teacher actually shook me. I don't know why, but I was a tiny child, very small frame, and I was sick in the classroom. And I told my dad, and he took me to school the next day

because I refused to go, and she just denied it and said, oh, Mr Holloman, there's no way I would have done anything to her. But I was shaken badly. And then it didn't come to any surprise that I actually got meningitis oh my god um like my system was so terrified of this environment and this teacher and was so young I was like five oh my god someone physically shook me enough to make me sick so then I missed about three months of school because I was so unwell I was in hospital for a long time so then I would put back even more so I think when you lose your confidence it's everything

and I was at the wrong school then I should have had some maybe homeschooling or just someone but it wasn't something that my family were bothered about or I remember one point my older brother said she's just stupid mum she's just not clever. So I kind of accepted that and just thought, I'm not very clever. So I couldn't even learn at school because I was so nervous. You poor thing. It was a horrendous experience. I'm so sorry. That sounds absolutely horrific. And also the thing about school, I wasn't particularly happy at school either. And it's so long. If you're not happy at school,

it feels very lonely yeah and I think that's where my anxiety may have started I was a real worrier and on Sunday nights that anxiety feeling I know I'm really worried about something when I don't know and of course it was school so uh yeah and it felt like years I could not wait to leave school was there anything in school when you went to secondary school that was a good positive memory that you have? Did you forge good friendships? Like was there something? Yeah, I did. I met a lovely girl who then, it's actually, I'm just thinking about the meeting, the people, it's the people I met at school. So I met a girl who was into horses, loved horses.

She was a great horse rider. And then I became back into horses. I loved horses when I was younger, but we couldn't afford one. And then I met this lovely girl and she had a horse. So I used to go to the stables with her all the time. From being at the stables, everyone loved me looking after their horse. So that way I was back in the horse world. And then she got sponsored show jumping. So we moved to Sus Sussex so then that's when my whole horse world opened up again which was great because I hadn't had any qualifications from school I mean I knew I'd never have got no level I don't know what I would have got it was just a part of my life I just needed to leave behind and being around animals just felt so much safer for me

because you weren't judged yeah yeah so were you 16 when you left school yes and Shirley how does it feel now looking back on your school days do you feel like you've ever regained that confidence that was literally shaken out of you there are times like even now if I have to hand write something even a birthday card sometimes when I'm writing a birthday card I'm so worried about if I'm going to spell it wrong because I definitely have something I may have dyscalculia but I've never been assessed or anything so I know that I do have some type of dyslexia so yeah sometimes I can write things and then I'll go back and think oh I've missed that out so yeah a birthday card can even be traumatic for me to write. We will come back to the horses, but it's so interesting hearing how traumatic your school days were

and how much of a refuge it must have been then to find Andrew and George and to dance. Yeah. And to express yourself that way. Exactly, because music growing up, even though my family was kind of a chaotic childhood, my dad loved music. And he was quite an angry man. And I think he suffered depression, but it was never diagnosed.

But on a Sunday, he would play music. So my association with music was my dad being happy. And my dad would dance, so he taught me to jive. So that was my happy place, to listen to music and to dance to it. So obviously with George, I kind of recreated that relationship that I'd had with my dad. He's the only other person who would play music and we would dance together.

Yeah, so that was the kind of connection, music and dancing was definitely a happy place. And why was your family life chaotic? My parents didn't have a happy marriage. My mum was a real victim. But once again, my biggest teachers, because I just remember growing up thinking, I'll never do this.

I'm never going to grow up in a relationship like this. I'm never going to shout in front of my children because it's horrendous. I'd rather people divorce. They don't realise the trauma you put onto children if you stick together, but you're arguing in front of these children, creating an awful atmosphere. So I grew up in that, with a really angry father and a really vulnerable mother. Then I would be worrying about my mother. So

instead of the mother worrying about the child, it was the child worrying, always worried about my mum. Is she okay? Is she going to be all right? Is my my dad gonna be horrible to her so that on top of school life was really hard and was he emotionally and physically angry he was six foot six huge like a giant but a big six foot six and my mum was five foot two so it would be all lovely in the house and then six o'clock would come and he would literally burst through the door like a Zeus-like character and most days he would be angry and now I feel sympathy because I think he really suffered depression but then I would hear my mum saying what have I done I think don't say those words don't say those words what have I you've done nothing it's his anger but he intimidated her he intimidated

so I would just run upstairs and get out of his way so it wasn't ever physically violent but he just could mentally create an atmosphere that would scare the life out of you so and your siblings were they sisters and brothers I've got two older brothers an older sister and a younger sister right but then I think what happened was because the boys had been open to this father who was obviously this big aggressive man, they were kind of copying him. So they would fight with each other. It was like the Wild West. I would never want anyone to come back to my house.

I'd always say, I'll come back to yours. I'd be so embarrassed if people said, could we come back? So I think, no, it's like the Wild West. They would literally knock furniture over, you'd hear things smashing. So it was just chaos. Everything I'm not now, you know, my home now is so quiet, calm, no arguing. But also I'm just thinking again, with George, what a relief it must have been to meet a man who was gentle yeah absolutely that was why I just gravitated to I've never met anyone with such a kind gentle soul who was so compassionate because I was naturally a compassionate person but I didn't really ever have anyone I would have expressed

my concern to because as I said I lived in chaos so I didn't really tell anyone about it I just kept it quiet. Meeting, especially a male, because I became, I kind of thought that males were all angry men and you've got to be scared of them, get out of their way. I just remember his beautiful smile when he would open the door. He'd always have this most amazing smile and it just goes through you. And that's why he could write so well, because he was so empathetic. You know, he could listen to your story and he

loved giving advice he was lucky because he could put everything into music and writing I remember all these wonderful stories that I read about him that emerged in the last couple of years about how he would pay for a couple's IVF never having met them which really moved me personally because I went through IVF myself and just that he would do that for people he'd never met because he clearly felt such empathy he really I would say definitely the most empathetic person I'd ever met and also not wanting anyone to know about it I mean I know there's so many things that he did that I'm just finding out now I'm like wow I didn't know he did that I'm just finding out now. I'm like, wow, I didn't know he did that. Because he was not materialistic in any shape or form.

He only ever wanted to do music. That was his love. It was so fulfilling. And I think because he got so much back from it, money was just an excessive thing that if I can help someone, I'd rather help someone than buy something for myself. So that was absolutely 100% who he was. Oh, Shirley. I mean, what a loss.

Yeah, yeah. Horses. So your second failure. So we've established that school was your first failure, although not really because it introduced you to George and Andrew. Yes, yeah. But your second failure that you outlined to me was that you were horse mad from the age of 12, as you said.

Yeah. And you truly believed that there was nothing else you could do or want to do. Yeah, absolutely. I knew that I was far more comfortable with animals, as you said, because they didn't judge me. I didn't have to write anything. I didn't have to do any, you know, math, nothing. I could just be with them. It's just a love that I had for them, a real love.

Leaving school, yeah, I moved to Sussex because my friend was qualified show jumping so why did you move because you were working we had our own stables yeah we we moved and had a stables in Sussex and you know you need a lot of horses when you're show jumping so it was just you two it wasn't your whole family no it was her parents okay so I remember my mum being sad that I left home and me thinking, wow, I can get out of that house. This would be amazing to get out of, you know, where I was living with my family. I had this whole new life at 16 in Sussex working with horses. There was a bit of a revelation in that, though, because show jumping is actually quite cruel. show jumping is actually quite cruel and I could feel myself becoming really upset with what horses had to go through to become great show jumpers and that was really sad for me because I felt here I

am working in this business and I'm not sure I really like it and I actually left after about a year I think I must have been nearly 18 I went back. And that period of leaving Sussex and all the horses to go back home to nothing was one of the hardest times in my life. I got an eating disorder because I felt so sad. I felt so disconnected. The most depressed I think I've ever felt in my life. What form did your eating disorder take? Because I was so depressed and lost because I'd had no qualifications and also when you're working with animals and with a friend you're not kind of interacting with other people so you lose a lot of friendships. So I came back to Bushy and I realised all the girls I'd been at school with kind of grown up and and I wasn't like them I didn't fit in. When you're in depression I

think a thing of control is to take it out on. And I thought, I'm not going to eat. It was very black and white. It wasn't like I would look, I wouldn't eat food and try to make myself sick. I just thought I won't eat. And then I would eat an apple sometimes. And then one day at the stables, I collapsed with terrible, severe stomach pains. And I was taken to hospital. And I just remember this doctor saying to me,

what do you eat? I couldn't answer him. I just remember staring and thinking, I ate an apple. I remember at the time thinking I shouldn't have eaten that apple. And he said, and what else? And the reflection of this man and his persona just questioning me, looking through me saying, and what else did you eat? I said, nothing. And then they did a whole barrier mill test on me, made me drink this thing. And they said, your stomach has created so much acid because you're not eating. And that was a

wake up call. So I started to eat a bit more food. But I remember one day eating an ice cream and then being in tears after it, thinking, why did I do that? I've let myself down because it was the only thing I was controlling. And I think when you're disconnected, you're trying to control. And, you know, I look at a lot of people with eating disorders, and I do think, where is their disconnection? If you could concentrate on their disconnection,

that may be the answer to get them eating again. And I was very thin, very thin. And then that's when I bumped into Andrew again though who once I felt connected I started eating again but it took collapsing with stomach pains and a doctor you know I was lucky really because it pulled me out of it. It's so interesting you say that about disconnection because I remember listening to an interview with the author Johan Hari and he's written a lot about drugs and addiction and he said that the opposite of addiction is connection so that a lot of disorders come from this feeling of loneliness and alienation and feeling like you're not part of anything and

you're yeah so the drugs will connect you. That's your source, that's your bridge too. Absolutely. Oh, I hate to think of you that lonely in your own family. Yeah, it was really, really dark and really painful. I mean... I know that eating disorders are something that stay with you. Do you feel that you have been able to live with it do you live with it

still or do you feel that it's no I'm it's absolutely past I think I was so unhappy that I taught myself that I could never be that unhappy again the lesson for me wasn't the eating disorder the lesson was wow how powerful when you're unhappy what what you do to yourself. So for me, I've always worked on how do I be happy? How can I make myself happy? I was reconnected. There wasn't an issue. There was no dark feelings inside. Food was there. I could eat it. I just did not have an issue with food at all. But it was just purely the fact that it was such a dark time to think that horses are your world, they're your love. And it was all taken away. And I was back in the fact that it was such a dark time to think that horses are your world they're your love and it was all taken away and I was back in the place that I didn't want to be I was back at home

in my family home I just felt despair so I couldn't see a way out because I wasn't qualified to do anything and not only that I couldn't even think in my head what would I want to do I had no ambition I was never brought up with ambition I didn't know that people could look for a career and you know make a career my were, you can get a job, just make sure you pay rent. Don't care what you do. And was part of the reason you gave up horses not just because you felt that it was cruel to show jump, but because you had severe hay fever? Well, yeah. So I left Sussex and stopped the show jumping. But when I did collapse, I was actually training to be a riding instructor for disabled kids.

I didn't know there was this whole path where you could become an AI riding instructor. And you had all these disabled children come to the riding school. And I really enjoyed that. And I was getting on with that. I was like, OK, I'm back on track. I'm becoming a riding instructor. Then I was struck down with the worst sore throat, itchy eyes, sneezing. I thought I didn't really know what it was. And then it just got worse and worse until I couldn't be

around horses. And then I thought, no, it's going to come back. This bad thing's going to come back. What am I going to do if I'm not with horses? There's nothing else I can do. And that is when I met Andrew, when I was knowing that I've got to leave horses because what will I do? And then that's when I met Andrew in the pub. Obviously, school days. Thank God I met him from then. And that's when a new door was opened for me, a new opportunity. It is an intervention.

I mean, I just feel like something said, we know you love these horses, but there is another world for you. But you've got to go the opposite way now. And also a bit like, we know you've had such a tough time and you, after 18 years, deserve a break. Yeah. As a youngster, I was very in the moment because I wasn't brought up with ambition.

I just kind of stuck with what was in the moment and went with it. So meeting Andrew and us I mean George and Andrew and I just used to hang out just George worked at the local cinema Andrew and I would go and watch movies whilst he was the usher I mean I look back it was so funny we had another friend David who worked at the swimming pool so we would all go swimming we were just absolutely in the moment not thinking about are we earning any money or are we earning a lot I had a little car it was just kind of living day to day what should like children what should we do today I think that reconnected me back to my childhood mind that will just make stuff up

and then that progressed making stuff up making dance routines up to you know eventually the whole Wham experience. Let's talk about the happy happy Wham years. Yes. I mean what is that like did you know that Wham in a way was always destined to be this global success but what does it feel like being inside that? You know what's sad is those days we didn't have phones and I didn't really have a camera then so it just went so far so after our appearance on Saturday morning Superstore it just took off and before I knew it we were on an airplane going to Los Angeles to do TV and I'd never been to America I was just quite speechless because I didn't feel this was really my vehicle either I felt like I was the friend that was coming along to it all so for me it just all went so fast I wish I could have taken more

photos mate I wish I'd had a diary but because of the dyslexia thing I never felt like I could write anything so I'm scrambling all the time looking for old photos of what Wham got up to and where we went because it was incredible. And then obviously they took off in America. We were playing stadiums in America, but I felt really proud of the boys because I felt they deserved it. You know, this wasn't manufactured. This is what the boys did. And they were really charismatic. That's why they were my friends. They were so funny. They were charismatic and it was fantastic. I felt so grateful that I was along that journey but at the same time I didn't feel I was qualified to be there I didn't feel

what I'm just here just really because I'm a friend but it was an amazing experience did you talk to the boys about that feeling that you had that you weren't worthy of it no I was too scared to just in case they said yeah you're not actually off you go no no it's just those thoughts I always kept to myself yeah it was a quite a mixed emotion because I thought I'm not worthy of it but at the same time it's our friendship that's kind of created this whole look and this whole thing so I did feel part of the creation the ingredients but I knew the driving force was George really because you could tell the determination that he was looking further and he became really fussy about everything he did.

So the point was I remember thinking, is he enjoying it anymore because he's suddenly gone very serious, but that's because he's a perfectionist. And I sometimes think, do people know that that's their destiny to do what he was doing it was his destiny without a doubt he knew he was here to make music and he knew that it was going to go on and I knew that I felt I was more of a voyeur in the whole thing who's the most famous or most exciting person that you met during that time funny enough I've just never really been

impressed by famous people I've almost been disappointed I was a huge David Cassidy fan growing up. And was he disappointed to meet that was the subtext I think you're too nice to say it. And I was like David the Cassidy's going I I'm going to meet David Cassidy. I remember meeting Shirley Bassey because I was a huge Shirley Bassey fan as a little girl. And I almost don't like meeting people that I really like. I remember Liza Minnelli coming into our dressing room and Pepsi and I, she was hysterical. She just kept running around our dressing room as if she's auditioning to take our job. She's doing these high kicks everywhere. She's going, girls, let me get in your costume.

And we're trying to steal our job. Get her out, get her out. Someone get Liza Vanilla out of here. That was one of the funniest things. We were like, did that just happen? That's the most Liza Vanilla anecdote I've ever heard. It was these high kicks and like, come on, girls, get your legs up here.

And then we tried this costume on and we were like, she's trying to steal our job. She's trying to get her out. Yeah, I think you meet lots of people, but I'm just not celebrity obsessed. I'm still not. I don't really have any celebrity friends. I only, you know, have friends of people who I like and who are kind.

You are married to one, though. And for that, we have to thank George. Please tell us that story because I love it. So that story. So I love music and George and I love music. So Spandau Valley, we love Spandau Valley. And one night when we went to a club in Soho, and the funny thing is I told you earlier that we used to go swimming.

So we went straight from swimming to a nightclub. I mean, no hairdryer, no makeup, you know, still that chlorine smell, I'm sorry about us. And we're like, oh, let's drive up to London because we were all just this spontaneous three. And so we went to the nightclub and we were just kind of looking around. In the 80s, everyone was so dressed up. It was fascinating to watch because people were just so individual. And then I remember George going, oh my God, oh my God, I found Spandau Ballet. Come over here, come over here. So he pulls me over.

I just go, there's Martin Kemp, there's Martin K kemp and i look over and he's so cool he's got the quiffed hair the suit and i'm standing this little cotton miss selfridge dress chlorinated hair staring knees with the most beautiful girl and i look at george but something happened i got a sense in my head that said you're going to marry him oh my goodness it was like an inner voice that just said you're going to marry him. Oh, my goodness. It was like an inner voice that just said, you're going to marry him. And I said to George, I don't want to meet him. I don't want to meet him. No, no, I'll marry him one day. And he was like, yeah, you're a stupid thing to say.

Like, yeah, sure. So we all ran back to the bar. We're just kind of spying on Spandau all the time. So Wham hadn't kind of happened then. So once Wham had taken place and I was thinking wow I might be able to meet Martin Kemp now now I'm in a band and he's in a band and we did a photo shoot one day with this photographer called Neil Matthews and I was like do you know Martin Kemp he went yeah I know him really well and I'm giggling so George will be giggling with me going

oh she really likes him like oh stop it no I don't know I don't yes I do yes I, so George will be giggling with me going, oh, she really likes him. And I go, oh, stop it. No, I don't. No, I don't. Yes, I do. Yes, I do. So the boys kind of knew that I fancied Martin. And then one night we went to a theatre premiere. So I'd never been to a premiere before. It was our first one. I hadn't dressed up.

I just had no makeup on, old trousers, jumper. And then my other friend, David, came running up to me and said, spanned out here. And I went, oh, no, not again. I said, oh, not tonight I said oh not tonight no I've got to oh no I don't look good please don't bring him over please don't bring him over so what do they do the boys are laughing so I see I'm stood around George and then David brings Shirley have you met Martin I'm just melting thinking oh no I don't look good tonight I've got, no makeup on or anything. And Martin has so much makeup on.

You know, huge hair, all lacquered, a big silk peacock-coloured jacket on. And I think he looked more like Liberace. And I actually thought, I don't know if I like him. Oh, oh, God, he's got all the makeup on and there's me playing Jane. I did a really limp handshake, kind of like, hello, I want to melt. Looking at my friend Dave, thinking I could kill you, why have you done this?

But Martin was really smiling and he did have a nice energy. I thought he's got really kind of nice energy. And then at the end of that, he said, why don't you all come to, there's a bar in Islington called Cheers. And the George going, yes, come on, we've got to go, we've got to go, push me george going yes we've got to go we've got to go push me go we've got to go and i'm going oh no i want to go home and change no let's go so we went to this bar with spandau so we're really cool now with you know these are the people on the posters we're with them and martin came over and gave me a piece of paper and said give me a

call smooth and so we all went home how old are you at this point 20 okay i think i'm 20 once again back in george's bedroom that was our main hangout george's bedroom and i think that piece of paper may have even been in george's bedroom i can't remember and he said if you called martin yet i said no so he goes come on now those days you didn't really have phones upstairs but there was a phone in his sister's bedroom so he grabbed the number and he ran to his sister's bedroom to go come on pulling me by the hand he's going I know this will be good for you and then he dialed the number and handed the phone to me and those days it was always the parents would answer the phone and I went hello it's Martin there she went who is it

I think I'm they're going to put the phone down obviously he gets girls called him all the time and he just answered said hello I'm so pleased you called me and I said really he goes should we go up for dinner and I'm just my eyes are just staring you know as I was staring over at you smiling going, going, nodding. I'm going, yes, I've never been out for dinner with a boy. I've never done anything like that. So we didn't go out for dinner, but what we did was we met at Camden Palace. So then obviously I took George with me

because it was a nightclubby thing. I didn't really ever go anywhere without the boys. And that was our first date at Camden Palace. And we didn't stop kissing and i remember george going oh you really made me feel a right idiot all you were doing was snogging all night yeah i was always saying oh you could have come up for air and that was it and that was it and that's been 37 years later and i did marry him and it was the right choice and we're spooling forward now a bit because pepsi then joined wham that's right and was very respectful of the friendship between the three

of you as i understand yeah and ultimately you two formed a duo yeah and had two top down hits you made number two but the person who kept you off the number one spot was was george yeah and everything yeah yeah and he did call immediately he said oh darling i'm so sorry i didn't know you why didn't you tell us you were releasing and so he did say that you are number one really that's so sweet yeah he genuinely felt bad i mean i could absolutely tell in his voice but he was laughing so i think he genuinely felt bad but I think he just thought well come on at least you were kept off the number one stop by Jordan if anyone's gonna do it it had to be you guys so yeah but even though you were doing incredibly well as Pepsi and Shirley you decided to take a step back yeah and why was that because all I really really craved for in life was love a nice home what people don't

realize you know being in a band does look glamorous the traveling is exhausting I mean when I was with Wham we were on airplanes every week these were the days when you'd there wasn't the availability of great food anywhere and I remember we were fed badly. You were tired. They would get you there hours early. You'd be sitting around in a waiting room with nothing to drink. I was quite tired from that. So when I did Pepsi and Shirley, once again, we were told, got to go here, got to go there. And I thought, it's not for me. I'm not very comfortable with celebrity. I didn't ever have an ego to fulfill that needed to be a pop star. That just was a side product of where I've come from. What I really craved was love and a home and a baby.

It was so powerful. And I remember having to tell Pepsi we'd just recorded a second album and thinking, how am I going to tell her? I don't want to do it. I just didn't want to do this anymore. And she was amazing because she really wanted a career. She wanted to go into the music business. And I said to her, I'm really sorry.

I've got something to tell you. And she said, I know what it is. She says, I know what you want. I know you love Martin. Because I had had the baby. I got married and had the baby. And she says, I know there's so much love between you three that why would you want to leave it and we just hugged because I think she felt so confident that she

would go on and do you know she didn't think that I was the answer to her dreams as well so I think she just thought I'll go on on my own and do it so that was amazing and the other funny thing about that is wanting to give everything up because I'd had a baby and I wanted to experience being at home and wanted to experience giving a child everything I didn't have in the sense of confidence and a loving home you know people would say oh why didn't you work and I tried to but it just didn't happen so I don't regret ever giving up any work although you do get people looking at you in sympathy saying oh do you miss it do you and I'm like no I'm so fulfilled by doing what I'm doing and then the ironic thing is my daughter ends up

writing two songs on on the album that we've just recorded and taking the album cover so she kind of paid back yeah it'd be funny if someone you know those years ago said don't worry one day you're going to make music again and this baby will be writing the songs and also taking the album cover that's so beautiful so it's such a full circle you know it's like when you can see things come in full circle you kind of see the patterns of life how they work and the thing is just always listen to yourself always listen intuitively to yourself well that actually neatly brings us on to your third failure because it is about a photography course that you took and you thought you were

failing at it but then what tell us the story so obviously going back to my failure of school I don't have a qualification for anything in life and that did eat at me a bit because I felt like wow I'm really vulnerable person I'm not qualified to do anything so I thought I've always loved photography I loved it I've always loved looking at people's photos when I was a young girl I used to go around to people's house saying can I see your photo album so I used to love to know what their mum and dad looked like when they were younger I was really fascinated by families and and the history of the family. So I always loved photography.

And I saw there was a photographic course in a local college. And I thought, you know what, I'm going to shock people. I'm going to go to college and become a qualified photographer. So I got to the college and I said, oh, could we have a word with you? I'm afraid that the photography teacher hasn't turned up. We couldn't replace them. But we do have a foundation course that you could do. And I didn't really know what a foundation course was, but I thought I'm here. I've kind of paid for the course. I may as well go ahead. And I started doing this course. And of course,

I've got a natural arty side to me that's creative. It's expressive. What I found hard, because I hadn't kind of understood what school was about hadn't taken on that people tell you what to do and there's a reference you've got to stick to it so when I was given this week we're doing something about boxes or I would think okay boxes so how can I come at that from my angle? So one day I took some work in and this teacher was always a bit hard on me, I felt. And he looked at it and he said, well, it's good, but it's not what I asked you to do.

And I just said, but it's my interpretation of what you've asked me to do. I couldn't grasp that. How do I know? And then another girl got a cigarette box that she'd kissed with lipstick on. And she was pretty and she had all this makeup. And he looked at this and thought, oh, I love this, love this.

I could feel my blood boiling. And I'd done this whole piece of work. It was quite Tracey Emin, my kind of style was. Not that I was copying Tracey Emin, but I realised it comes from my kind of punk time. And I thought, the depth of what I've done. She picked up a cigarette box and put lipstick on. I could feel myself shaking. And then he just said to me, you better go away and do something else.

And I walked out of that class and that school feeling came back that I wasn't good enough. I'm not part of what everyone else is. I don't get it. I'm stupid. I'm thick. How do I not know what he wants? what everyone else is. I don't get it. I'm stupid. I'm thick. How do I not know what he wants? So I went home and I sat in my car in my drive and in my old house we had a huge window that could see onto the drive and I sat and I sobbed and I sobbed for about an hour. So my son noticed Roman that my car had pulled in but I hadn't got out of it because I actually couldn't get out of

the car and then the next minute I can see because I actually couldn't get out of the car and then next minute I can see Martin and Roman knocking on the window of the car and I'm looking up and they go what's happened what's happened he didn't like my work and then they just laugh and they what he didn't like my work and they said get out of the car and they said this is so good and I'm going but he said it wasn't good and I couldn't get over because it really wasn't about the box it was about everything about me who felt like a failure I couldn't give him what he wanted but he really liked the cigarette box with lipstick on it and I couldn't fathom it I couldn't work that out why was that okay and mine wasn't so I left and they were next when they said we found a photography teacher now I was like I never want to come back to college you know it's

just not the right environment and they said but you know the art teacher thought you were great and that he wasn't worried about you and he wants to apologize and I was like no no I'm not coming back so what I did was that I just picked my camera up and thought you know what I'm just going to learn by my mistakes so I just started photographing everything playing with the numbers and all of a sudden I was getting this style of image that my daughter first said oh they're you know they've got a lot of light exposure in them, but I was like, but that's what I really like, I'm purposely doing that. And then I realised this is my photography, I don't care what people say about it,

it's my style, and it gave me that confidence. And then I would get a lot of people saying, I love your photography, and it makes me feel nice when I see your pictures, and that's what images do for me. I'm really moved by images. And I thought, well, if that can make other people, then it makes me feel better that I'm doing things that other people are like. And then I started shooting with a lady in America who did the most beautiful, ethereal, fairy shoots.

And I flew to America and we did this whole thing for a magazine and a book. And she loved my work and I loved hers. And that for me, being okayed by her, who I absolutely thought was amazing, was all I needed. But it was doing something that I love, that I learned organically myself. So I think for me, I am just not one of those people who can go into an institutional type of space and learn and literally have to be hands on, learn by my mistakes and then find my own way. I got a glimpse there into your family life with Martin and Roman knocking on the car window. And I know that it hasn't been as much as you've loved each other for these 37 years. It hasn't always been plain sailing and that Martin was ill in the 90s very ill with brain tumors yeah and you got through that I mean it's a cliched question but what is the secret to a long and happy marriage it is a

really hard question to answer but I try and think about it I think Martin and I both have this we both want the same thing and I think that's a vital part of the relationship you know you hear some stories where as soon as I married him he changed but we were together six years before we got married and apart a lot as well and I just didn't meet anyone else that resonated he was so kind and that once again took me back to my childhood I had to be around someone who's kind and calm and he was amazing father so the longer we stayed together the better it became because sometimes having children you might think the husband could be turn again or it could put you pull you I don't think children are there to enhance a relationship

it makes it much harder and I never met anyone like Martin never maybe there's never been anyone to turn my head or turn his head he may say I've never met someone like Shirley but I think maybe our intentions are the same I was very hyper when I met him and he was very calm so he calmed me a lot but then I made him laugh a lot because I was very outgoing and funny when I was younger just the balance of it we really respect each other he feels like home that's all I can say he just feels like home and the illness what was that like to get horrendous because he hadn't been ill he was perfectly well he had been to the gym he was in his 30s he was so handsome looked great but it had this bump on his head and I always used to touch it and say, I don't, there's a weird, it's getting

bigger, it's getting, he was like, oh no, it's not, it's fine, I sent him to a doctor, he came back, said, oh, it could be calcium growth, they don't think it's anything, then it got bigger, and then he went back to a doctor, and they said, you know what, I think we'll just do a scan, and I remember him calling me, saying, I've got a brain tumour. And I didn't, in those days, I'd never heard of anyone with a brain tumour. And then he said, I've got two. So the next day, within days, we were with this professor in London and he was just sitting there telling Martin how ill he is and how dangerous this is.

Our whole world fell apart apart I disconnected from the world definitely then because I couldn't see anyone I couldn't really talk to anyone I had to figure this out what was going on and Martin was such a soldier I mean he never moaned just didn't cry about it just went through the you know had this operation had the top of his skull taken away. And he was just so quiet. He was so quiet throughout. And I became quite angry. I was like, hold on a minute. I made this, I felt like I'd made a pact with something to marry him, to have children. Why is it going wrong? Which led me, I used to listen to Alanis Morissette the whole time. That was the best music. Her music was so angry that I just used to play her music, scream and sing to her music. And at the whole time. That was the best music. Her music was so angry that I just used

to play her music, scream and sing to her music. At the same time, I looked into alternative healing. And it looks so stupid compared to being around professors. But when the professor, I asked him, why has he got brain tumors? He said, we don't know. I just thought, you've got to know. You can't just leave me with, I don't know. And then my neighbour bought me a book called How to Heal Your Life by Louise Hay, and it changed my life immediately. I just felt like, hang on, I might have some control over this. These professors don't know anything,

but I need to save Martin. I can't lose him. I felt like this promise would be broken, that we were supposed to be here for each other. So I went on a huge alternative route for myself, really, not so much that Martin took on to the, but one day I did bring a lady who was a healer into the house. And I thought, oh, he's going to either hate this or tell her to get out. And what was amazing is it was the first time I saw him cry so whether you know this

lady can heal I still you know quite skeptical about it but what I do believe is that humans do need to release emotions and he hadn't and I wasn't going to be the one he just didn't do it in front of me this lady was a total stranger came into our house it was the most beautiful thing I'd seen he was just lying there she wasn't even touching him. She was around him and he just cried and cried. And for me, that was enough to think this is the right thing that I'm doing. And funny enough, going back to Louise Hay book, because she has a whole reference of why you have these illnesses and brain tumors was denial of the ego, like repression of the ego. I thought, no, that's really interesting. Martin was a bass player in the band. Maybe he wants to do more. And I had that whole conversation

with him. And I thought, how do you tell someone who's just had their head sliced off? Well, it could be your ego is a bit repressed, you know, let's talk about that. And I said, you know, what is it you'd like to do? And he said, well, you know, the whole craze thing that they had done. He thought that because he liked acting as a child, he was going to do acting. I thought, I wonder if that's got something to do with it. That was kind of stopped. Didn't anything happen after the craze? Because he's naturally shy and so am I.

That's the other thing we have very similar. We were both quite shy. And that shyness causes that, you know, rep repressed situation so I really spoke to him about that about not repressing anything and even go back to saying this is funny that we're doing this album because he just said I've just found another part of myself that I didn't know I knew so for me coming from that angle of healing I thought I really like this because he's expressing and it's very important to express because sometimes the body can take it and hold it in other areas if you don't so I had a huge journey in the 90s of

learning self-help and he went on to be in EastEnders yeah which I was so relieved about because I thought yes yeah this is what he needed and he was a big be in EastEnders. Yeah, which I was so relieved about because I thought, yes, this is what he needed. He was phenomenal in EastEnders. And he was a big character in EastEnders. And he got better. He had been through so much that it was amazing. So for me, everyone thinking, oh, he's in EastEnders. It wasn't about that for me.

It was about, look at my husband who's been through so much. Look at him now. He's out there learning lines. So I found it as a healing situation, the holy senders thing. And talking of your spiritual journey, do you feel that that has helped you cope with George's loss? Yeah, I think because I have a deep sense of life as a purpose. I was lucky that my last conversation with George was about his

purpose. I feel so blessed that I was able to ask him lots of questions. And I think, well, why did that particular conversation that I had? I'd asked him questions I'd never asked before. So just looking at my own life, I see timings. I see circles. I see people are here to do things. I have to look at it and accept. The funny thing is, I still feel he's around. Because I see his pictures all the time. They come up on social media. I walk into a shop, I hear his song. I turn my car radio on, I hear his voice. He's left so much of himself here that what's gone is so small I just feel there's more of him here than what's gone I think of him a lot he's left such an imprint in my life that I don't feel a great loss anymore what was his purpose his purpose was music and if you hear what people talk about how they talk

about his music the impact that his music had was so huge it was so emotional you know no one wrote the way he wrote I've never heard a male singer sing with that emotion that just cuts through you it's so genuine it's so real his voice it wasn't an effect I'll sing like this because people like that or put this effect on my voice it was his soul absolutely that was his soul singing shirley kemp i think you're such a beautiful person inside and out and i thank you so so much for coming on this podcast thank you thank you for having me if you enjoyed this episode of how to fail with elizabeth day i would so appreciate it if you could rate review and subscribe apparently it helps other people know that we exist