How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S7, Ep5 How to Fail: Eniola Aluko

Episode Date: January 29, 2020

 Eniola Aluko is a former footballer who bears the notable distinction of being one of only 11 women to play for England over 100 times and the first ever female pundit on Match of the Day. Born in Nigeria, she was raised on a Birmingham council estate, where her talent for football was obvious from a young age. At 15 she signed up for Birmingham City Ladies. Later, she played for Chelsea and Juventus, gaining a First Class law degree along the way. Later still, she was a whistleblower for racist bullying within the Football Association  It was a public battle that required extraordinary reserves of strength, courage and determination.Eni joins me to talk about racism, sexism, equal pay, psychological pressure, failing the New York bar exam twice and the very real difficulties of dating when you're a female athlete. We also discuss her gripping memoir, They Don't Teach This, which is ALL about the incredible lessons she's learned from failure and is therefore very on-brand for this whole podcast.Thank you Eni! This word is overused but you are truly an inspiration. *The Sunday Times Top 5 bestselling book of the podcast, How To Fail: Everything I've Ever Learned From Things Going Wrong is out now in paperback and available to buy here.*They Don't Teach This by Eniola Aluko is published by Yellow Jersey and is available to buy here.*How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted by Elizabeth Day, produced by Naomi Mantin and Chris Sharp. We love hearing from you! To contact us, email [e-mail]* Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayEni Aluko @EniAlu  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by card, other conditions apply. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned

from failure. Eniola Aluko is a former England footballer, one of only 11 women to have played more than 100 times for England. Born in Nigeria, Aluka's parents moved to Birmingham when she was six months old. Her talent for football was innate and extraordinary. She played from the age of five alongside her younger brother, Shawnee, himself now a professional footballer. For a long time, she didn't particularly see herself as a girl. The football-playing boys on the council estate she grew up on called her Eddie because it was easier, and she didn't have a female friend until secondary school. This was just one of the ways in which Aluko defied easy categorisation. At 15, she joined Birmingham City Ladies, where her

coach labelled her the Wayne Rooney of women's football. But she was academically gifted too, and later emerged from Brunel University with a first-class degree in law. She juggled her law and footballing career for years, negotiating for fairer pay for her teammates along the way. Later, she became the first female pundit on Match of the Day and a football columnist for The Guardian. And yet, despite scoring 36 goals in her professional career for England, it was as a whistleblower that she made most headlines. In 2016, after being asked to take part in a confidential culture review by the Football Association,

Aluko detailed two years of bullying and discriminatory action by the then England coach Mark Sampson. Twelve days later, she was dropped from the England squad. Convinced that the two were connected, she wrote a grievance report detailing specific incidents of racism. It was later dismissed by the FA, who then launched a smear campaign against her in the press and sought to gag her with a non-disclosure agreement. In 2019, Mark Sampson finally apologised to Aluko for racist

comments made to her and a teammate. Aluko was vindicated. But it had been an emotionally draining battle that tested her strong Christian faith. She wrote about this episode and more in her gripping memoir, They Don't Teach This, published last year. Defeats were not only failures, she writes, they were invitations to grow. Annie Aluko, welcome to How to Fail. Thank you so much. I went into quite a bit of detail there in that introduction, just because I think that it's so important to understand how extraordinary your story is yeah do you find it extraordinary is it odd hearing someone talk about

it in those terms yeah sometimes I kind of have an out-of-body experience and realize it's not me like I feel like it's not me I'm from quite humble beginnings and certainly growing up in Birmingham and my life has been so extraordinary in many ways and and sometimes it kind of to reconcile it being me that same person is quite difficult but at the same time I look at it from a positive point of view and feel very blessed to have been on a journey that you know inspires other people and I can talk about that relates to other people as well like so it so it's, it is a little bit weird, especially hearing you talk about it in that way. But I think writing the book helped me to process all of that as well. And I mentioned in the book, that quote about defeats and failures.

Beautiful quote, yeah. There are so many beautiful quotes in your book that I struggled to pass it down to just one. Because in many ways, the book is a paean to failure and to what it's taught you. Was that something that you were aware that you were going to write before you wrote the book? Yeah, no, absolutely. In the process of writing the book, I was very clear that I obviously wanted to do a memoir and autobiography about my life but I really wanted to open it up as a conversation that would relate to other readers and touch points for many different types of people so whether it's women, young girls, black women,

male football fans, whoever that may be, lessons in life that really touch everybody and failure was a big one, in fact the main one I think and in terms of my own career what really shook me to my core was a big failure playing for Chelsea and it shook my faith it shook me my confidence it made me feel like I wasn't good enough and it was done all publicly so I got a lot we got a lot of criticism as a team I got a lot, we got a lot of criticism as a team. I got a lot of criticism as a striker. And it really kind of redefined the way I looked at life. It sounds silly because it's just a football match. But, you know, football has taught me so much about life as well.

And that failure really was a starting point of a lot of success for me. So, yeah, it kind of is a great analogy for life. I think you have to be heartbroken or you have to fail first before you can really experience anything, you know, amazing beyond what you ever expected. And that's certainly what happened in my football career. And you talk in the book about being a striker in a way that I'd never thought about before, which is that it's a very lonely position.

And yes, you get the glory, but when you fail, do so so publicly and you have such a weight responsibility on just your shoulders yes exactly it's a risk and reward position you really have to put yourself in the position to fail every single time and once you do that only then can you score and again it's another analogy for life it's like a lot of the time we convince ourselves to not put ourselves in the position to grow or to do something different or to change because we're terrified of failing but you can only experience something great unless you put yourself in that position and many times when I was struggling with scoring goals on the pitch I would like draw back from being in that position and many times when I was struggling with scoring goals on

the pitch I would like draw back from being in the position to score and so I wouldn't score so it's almost like counterintuitive and so I learned as a striker that the minute you just let go of that fear of failure you score more. That's so interesting and you feel freer. You feel freer. just let it go and trust that you're good enough to do it anyway without planning and so setting targets is good but I think as a striker me releasing that fear of failure really really helped me to score more goals and just be the person and the striker that I wanted to be. There's a whole section in They Don't Teach This about being a hyphen. Yes.

What did you mean by that? Well that's actually one of my favourite chapters because I think when the book was released it really resonated with a lot of people um in diaspora and a lot of people that have sort of multiple identities within one and it really that chapter embrace the hyphen was all about my journey if you like as a Nigerian British or British Nigerian girl growing up my name was Eniola Oluko so I knew I was different but I tried to almost edit that all the time to fit in I played for England so that brought it into contact even more in the sense that I just wanted to kind of be known as the England player anything else was kind of felt

so distant and then I had a quite bad experience when I was young going to Nigeria it was quite chaotic experience and again that was another reason why I just didn't connect with that side of myself but embrace the hyphen is really about saying we become the best version of ourselves when we embrace all sides of ourselves so whether that might be identity whether that might be different races within you, maybe that might be different careers. You know, I'm a lawyer, I'm a footballer, I'm a pundit, I'm an author, all of those different sides of myself that other people have too. Like you can do multiple things, you don't have to just do one. So Embrace the Hyphen is a really empowering chapter, but also I think the reality of the journey that it took for me

to kind of embrace all the different aspects of myself. Do you think that part of racism is when people feel confronted that others don't conform to the stereotypes in their head? So this idea that, as I said in the introduction, you defy easy categorisation. No, I think you've summed it up perfectly. I think that's the side of racism that people don't really talk about. People think it's just name-calling, but I don't think people are stupid enough anymore to say those things. I think it's much deeper than that. I think it's more subconscious. And I think it goes back to what we see constantly on TV,

what we see in film. It's these stereotypes that we have of different races. And the minute you're confronted by something different, it's like, oh, this doesn't make sense. And that was certainly my experience. I felt growing up in school, nobody necessarily expected me to be the cleverest in the class. Nobody expected me to want to become a lawyer. Not because they were intentionally racist but because they'd never seen it before they weren't exposed and so here you come along

trying to be something different it's like how dare you I don't know whether that's racism but certainly it's part of it it's a part to play because you get all these microaggressions against what you're trying to do because of your of. And on top of that, from your own race, you get certain expectations. Like, oh, no, you shouldn't speak like that, you're black. You know, in school, I remember black girls saying to me, oh, you don't speak like a black girl. What does that mean? Like, what does that mean?

I grew up in a family where my mum loved the English language and taught me to speak well. So it works both ways but I think we need to be more aware of it as people just like the categorizations that we're putting other people in we need to get rid of all of that. Your mother comes across as such a hero. Yeah she is she's pretty cool she really is and I'm just so grateful to her looking back you know mums and dads can be quite annoying because they can be quite strict.

You know, my parents were, certainly with my education, were quite strict. And balancing it with football was really, really difficult. But I'm really grateful to my mom in particular because she always gave me the freedom to just explore what I wanted to do. And coming from a Nigerian background, that's not always the case.

A lot of kids grew up being told that they couldn't do music or couldn't do kind of non-traditional careers I never had that experience you know my mom always encouraged my football even though there was no other girls doing it so I wouldn't be where I am now I't think, if I didn't have that amount of freedom growing up. So let's go to your first failure, which you've already touched on, which is in 2014, failing to win the league when you were playing with Chelsea. And I just want to paint the picture, first of all, because I was so shocked to discover how little women footballers were paid yeah at the time you were playing so

when you went to the world cup in china which was in 2007 i think for five weeks work you were paid 1400 pounds yeah i mean minimal yeah outrageous and a lot of us had to take unpaid leave so it was a double whammy so like from our day jobs we weren't getting paid and then when we were representing england we weren't getting paid and then when we were representing England we weren't getting paid so but you know this is the beauty of women's football like we do it for the love of it generally I mean it sounds like a cliche but like no one was even thinking about it at the time because it was like well representing England like of course this is this is the dream but after a while the reality of life kicks in and it's like, well, how am I going to pay my mortgage?

So when you were playing for Chelsea, explain to us what a typical week was like for you. Well, at the time in 2014, 2015, we were semi-pro. So we were training three days a week in the daytime. So we'd train from sort of 10 o'clock to 12 o'clock. time so we'd train from sort of 10 o'clock to 12 o'clock I was working at a law firm so I'd take half days on the days of training in the daytime and then I worked full days for the other days so everybody was balancing some sort of day job or study so that's the way it was but I think at the time I was just grateful that we were training three times a week because that wasn't always the case sometimes we're training in the evening at eight o'clock when the floodlights were about to go out that was

actually a progression training in the daytime on grass pitches wasn't there even a battle to get lunch yeah yeah yeah no absolutely it was and i think the right word is battle because the chelsea training ground is huge so the women's section was like five, ten minute drive from actually where the canteen was. So they had to really negotiate getting food driven down to us just to eat lunch after training. And it really, it took a while for it to like just be like a normalised thing. These are all the things that people don't know you know what I mean they

see us on the football pitch and think oh you know but the little battles that you have to have just to be kind of on the same level is really difficult have you seen that film hidden figures yes I have yes it just reminds me of that I love that film too but like they had to run to the women's toilets in the 10 minute allotted break whilst they were basically devising entire computer systems for NASA right exactly and this is the history of what women have to go through to just get sort of basic just to be able to work on a basic level and actually you have to do so much more because you don't you have less but I think we're stronger for it you know and we're more grateful for it and I'm a firm believer that if you your kind of mantra is

be grateful first then you're much happier person so I love that so tell us what happened when you lost the league on that final day yeah so 2014 it was a great season. We were winning, winning, winning, winning, winning. We didn't have much dips in the road on the way. And most of the team had always come second. No one had ever won. And Chelsea certainly had never won. So it was like this kind of thing where we were like, oh, my God, we're going to win. We're going to win. We're going to win. It was a bit like a marathon runner just kind of leading the way the whole time. And in their mind, they think they're going to win. And then two games before the final game of the season, we lost. We were still three points ahead. But it was a little bit of a kind of shake in the road. But we still felt, OK, it's fine. We're going to win. Get there to the final game of the season.

It was against Manchester City. And Manchester City were like sixth in the table they were resting their top players because they had a cup final in three days time so we rocked up and we're like well they don't care about this game you know they don't really you know we're gonna win this is routine which was the wrong mentality to have and so we start the game and our goalkeeper breaks her collarbone within eight minutes of the game, which completely just throws our back line, our defensive line.

The goalkeeper that had to replace her hadn't played in about two years. She was like a substitute goalkeeper. We go 2-0 down before half-time and at half-time, everyone's stunned. Everyone's looking at each other like okay what do we do now we didn't prepare for this second half we tried to claw it back 2-1 but we didn't have enough I didn't have enough as a striker to help my team to score and we lose the game and we we lose the game and our opponents, won by a goal difference that meant they won the league by one goal. So it was just devastating because it was like a marathon

and then you're being pipped at the finish line and just being complacent, really. And everybody was there, all the camerons were there, all family and friends were there, so it was a very public failure. I was just devastated I really because I think again that was the first time a lot of us would have won in our careers and for all the reasons we've just talked about all the hard work all the little battles all of that was on the line that day and we failed and there's a picture of me in the book actually and I think

it's the first picture in the book that you see it's a failure of me crying, devastated, inconsolable on the pitch and just wanting to never play football again I remember feeling like I'd never want to play football again because of this failure And you questioned your faith Yeah, yeah because I think at that stage in my

faith life it was this idea that if you pray you get what you want that's what the Bible says. But it doesn't really work like that. I prayed and prayed and prayed. I was like, right, you know, this is going to be my moment in life. This is what I've worked my heart off to do. This is what I want. And I prayed and thought, this is what I'm going to get. But the problem is when we pray, we can't see ahead. We don't know what, you know, I believe God has in store for us. So I wasn't able to see the next year winning two trophies

and needing to go through that experience in order to win the two trophies. So at the time I was like, this doesn't make any sense. Everything I thought faith was, was shattered. And so I went through this kind of rebellion where I was like, I'm not going to go to church, I'm not going to pray. This is all rubbish. Which again, I think is important as well to go through as a Christian. Like it's not about always believing everything's hunky-dory.

And do you genuinely believe that on a very practical level, that you wouldn't have had the victory two years later, that the failure of 2014 made you into a better performer? Yeah, 100%. Because I think it was rock bottom for me. I genuinely wanted to quit. Like, I wanted to be done. And because it was so public,

I just couldn't face the idea of failing again like that. But you decide to go again. That in itself makes you stronger that like okay I'm gonna go for it again it's a choice because you can quit and you can be like oh I don't want to do that again and it goes back to what I was saying earlier about like as a striker like if you want to score you've got to put yourself in a position to score or to miss so that as a team and as an individual made us stronger and then it was like well we're not going to go through that again so we did everything possible to make sure that we were better

psychologically we were better tactically we weren't arrogant thinking that we were going to win before we won and that gave us an edge over every team because in football you can be similar in terms of ability you can be similar in terms of every position on the field but the edge that you have that kind of hunger and that fire in your belly is really the difference that was the difference we were so hungry to win and having been through that very public it sounds the way you're talking about it as if it felt like a humiliation as well as a failure does it then equip you to feel like well I got through that so I don't it doesn't

really bother me now like the idea of that happening again I know that I can get through it yeah 100% my attitude towards failure now in life is completely different as a result of that failure it's like okay if it happens it's like okay it wasn't meant to happen, or there's a purpose for this, or it wasn't for me, or this door is shut for another one to open. It's completely different. I don't feel humiliated if I fail. I feel very much like, okay, there's something in this.

I guess I'm just more philosophical about it. And that's something I really wanted to get across in the book, because I have two young sisters you know who are teenagers and I feel like their generation is a lot less willing to go through difficult moments to get to the other side whereas me growing up I kind of just had to figure it out as the only girl in the boys team and face a lot more challenges and so to all the young girls reading the book I really want to get across that like it's not going to be plain sailing all the time especially if you want to be somebody great you have to be prepared to like fail sometimes and you know not get it right so

that's a big lesson from the book that I hope really resonates with people you're speaking my language I love it you have to be in the ring to take the punches too yeah um at that point in 2014 when you were inconsolable on the pitch after that was it just you who got yourself through it or did someone say something that helped or resonated or were there tactics that you put into play to help yourself recover? No, well, there was a lot of people. First of all, my coach, Emma Hayes, she was instrumental for the team in terms of recovering from that failure. I talk about it in the book, but she always talks about what a pilot does when the plane's about to crash.

Like he doesn't panic. He or she doesn't panic. In that moment, that's when their training comes in. In that moment, that's where they're the most calm. And she always used to say, like, if we face adversity again in this season or we lose or we're losing, that's when you should be the most calm. Put practical steps in place. Don't think too much about what's going to happen. Think about now. Effect now. think too much about what's going to happen think about now affect now so she was huge in the team really sort of developing practical skills really around when you are failing in that moment what are you going to do rather than panicking but then I had mentors like Linvoy Primus who was an ex-football player best name in the world yes and he's also a strong Christian and he really helped me to understand the faith part and he was like God's timing is not always our timing and the idea that the only thing you can do in that moment is give your best and have faith and the rest kind of pans out the way it should be and you can only look back and appreciate the journey you sometimes you can't really appreciate it in that moment so So he was huge as well.

And I remember going to him, having a coffee with him two days before the FA Cup final in 2015, the year after that failure, and saying, I'm really scared. Like, I'm really scared to fail again. And he was like, well, you can't affect it. All you can do is do your best. And one of the greatest things he said to me,

and I think it's a lesson for everybody, is, OK, what's the worst that's going to happen if you do fail? And it released something in me. It really did. Because I think we build things up in our head like, oh, my God, my life's going to be over and this person's going to criticise me on Twitter and this person, that person.

It's like, no no you okay you go again you get up and go again there will be people listening to this who don't have a god and who might feel alienated by this particular language but i think what you're saying has universal resonance because even if you don't have a particular religious faith right I think you can still believe as I do that the universe is unfolding exactly as is intended yes that actually it would be deeply arrogant for us as imperfect humans to think that we know what's best for us all of the time exactly that there's a bigger plan exactly I mean you said it you said it it's it's true and that's one of the things in the book I was quite conscious of that my experience is a Christian experience to a certain extent, but it doesn't mean that that can't be the same for everybody else, whatever sort of mantral faith that you hold.

It's about saying, we don't know what's going to happen. We can only do our best to try and affect that and just be prepared for the dips in the road and understand that the dips in the road aren't going to kill us. They're only really going to make us or shape us into better people if we look at it that way. And yeah, that whole idea that karma and the universe conspires to put us where we're meant to be. Yeah, I definitely believe that. Your second failure is not to do with football. It's to do with law, which is your other big passion. And you failed the New York bar exams twice. So tell us why you chose that as your second failure well when I was playing out in America I was given the opportunity the first team I played

for was St Louis Athletica and it was owned by a lawyer he owned law firms around the world and he gave me the opportunity in the off season to work for his firm which was godsend really because coming out of university finishing law degree I had so many rejections from law firms I was applying to that I was like okay what do I do now so the idea of being able to play and do law was was really good and I decided to. Hi I'm Matt Lewis historian and host of a new chapter of Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit. Join me and world leading experts every week as we explore the incredible real life history that inspires the locations, the characters and the storylines of Assassin's Creed. Listen and follow Echoes of History,

a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts. Peyton, it's happening. We're finally being recognized for being very online. It's about damn time. I mean, it's hard work being this opinionated. And correct. You're such a Leo.

All the time. So if you're looking for a home for your worst opinions, if you're a hater first and a lover of pop culture second, then join me, Hunter Harris, and me, Peyton Dix, the host of Wondery's newest podcast,

Let Me Say This. As beacons of truth and connoisseurs of mass, we are scouring the depths of the internet so you don't have to. We're obviously talking about the biggest gossip and celebrity news. Like, it's not a question of if Drake got his body done but when. You are so messy for that but

we will be giving you the b-sides don't you worry the deep cuts the niche the obscure. Like that one photo of Nicole Kidman after she finalized her divorce from Tom Cruise. Mother a mother to many. Follow Let Me Say This on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new episodes on YouTube or listen to Let Me Say This ad free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new episodes on YouTube or listen to Let Me Say This ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Try and qualify out in the States at the time. Studying the New York Bar alone, which was a mistake because I feel like I needed a group to study with.

And it was the hardest thing I've ever done. I rocked up to the exam. Actually, it was the hardest thing I've ever done I rocked up to the exam actually it was the day before my birthday I went to Buffalo New York which if anyone's ever been to Buffalo New York it's probably the deadest place on earth no disrespect to anyone from there but there's nothing going on there got into the exam hall and opened the page up and I was like oh I knew absolutely nothing like all the studying I'd done was just futile it was like so difficult I think I answered one question in the paper and just sat there like okay like massive failure I felt like realized how difficult it was realized probably how arrogant I was to think that I could just kind of rock up and you know study on my own and do it so anyway the year after I was

like okay I'm gonna give it another go and got into a study group and studied and the New York bar is very difficult because not only have you got to understand state law it's also understanding federal law whereas in England you're you're learning one law it's just the common law of the land so it was very difficult to try and understand both sides but again same thing rocked up to the exam hall was like right I'm more prepared this time doing this again failed again like it was like worse I just didn't understand what to do and and I remember walking outside of the exam hall like okay this isn't meant to be for me this isn't part of my path and it was 2011 at the time and the Olympics was on the horizon 2012 Olympics and I And I remember thinking, OK, like, I'm meant to go home.

This is probably time for me to go back to England. I've got the Olympics. But that failure at the time was a stirrer for me. It was like, OK, go back home and try and qualify at home, even though at that moment I was in America, I was playing professionally out there. So it's the idea that, you know, some of our failures are just, we're not meant to achieve them. We're meant to be steered to do something else.

And lo and behold, I got to the Olympics, played in the Olympics, and then did the whole sort of legal practice course and qualified as a solicitor in 2013, the year after. So I don't know where I would be if I passed that exam, but I certainly wouldn't be kind of a UK solicitor as I am now. Because growing up, your hero was Atticus Finch. Yes. Yeah, he still is my hero. That's my favourite book of all time, To Kill a Mockingbird. He was one of the reasons why I kind of fantasised about being a lawyer

in a weird, geeky way. I'm not sure who else fantasises about being a lawyer in a weird geeky way. I'm not sure who else fantasizes about being lawyers but I certainly did. I knew every line of the film, I knew every line of the book and he just stood as a real sort of beacon for me for kind of justice and standing for change and speaking for the voiceless really and I really admired what his character represented. Tell us about the boy with the afro at your school. Yeah, so the boy with the afro at my school, I don't name him because I'm sure he'd be very embarrassed.

I remember it was like year nine. This was the year when I decided, okay, I'm really going to knuckle down now. Like the GCSEs had started. I was trying to be that kid that was like rocking with the bad kids in school smoking behind the shed and I can't imagine you being right right because I wasn't that kid and bunking off to the chip shop like it just wasn't me but I was trying to be that kid like

to fit in and it just wasn't me and I remember year nine I just had this like click in my head I was like I'm gonna move away from that crowd and we started English literature and we started Tickling Mockingbird and all these books that really inspired me and I remember it just gave me a sense of bravery and a voice there was this kind of uniform rule that came in where boys weren't allowed to have like crazy hair and girls couldn't wear like short skirts, bleak their knees. So this particular boy, he wasn't allowed to wear his hair out in an afro, but that

actually was a natural style. And there was other boys dyeing their hair that was allowed. So I just saw it as an unfairness. I thought it wasn't balanced. And so I remember going into the headmistress's office. We had a good relationship at the time, actually, me and the headmistress's office we had a good relationship at the time actually me and the headmistress and I said like this doesn't really make sense that's the way he wears his hair that's an afro it's a natural hairstyle and she was like oh you have a good

point actually and you know allowed a sort of more relaxed rule and I remember thinking like it was like a win like it was like the lawyer who'd gone in to a judge and won you know won something for their client like I felt a sense of real achievement by doing something for somebody else that really didn't benefit me I mean he was a boy and I was a girl and and I think that was the first time I really realized that like I really enjoyed doing that just speaking on behalf of somebody else he had no idea by the way he didn't ask me to do that and to this day he has no idea so wow yeah maybe he's listening to the podcast maybe I do think that that comes across so strongly in your manner and also in the book that you have a passionate belief in justice.

Yes. And that you're very considered. That's what strikes me about the way that you talk. And I mean that as a compliment, very considered and eloquent. And it really struck home for me when I was reading about your dealings with Mark Sampson and what I mentioned in the introduction, Mark Sampson and what I mentioned in the introduction how what he was doing to you was patently bullying with racist undertones and yet how you stuck with it for two years building up your resilience but also like a case because you didn't want to say something without being prepared right and I just thought that that was so impressive,

that you had the strength to do that. You know what? I think at the time, there was many things going on. So I just wanted to play football for my country and had done up to that point for 10 years. So I just wanted to survive in the team, first of all. But then it was about saying, OK, something's going on here. it was about saying okay something's going on here my gut is telling me something's going on and the gut is so intuitive but a lot of the time we try

and fight against it because it's not convenient so because I wanted to stay in the team it wasn't convenient for me to hear what my gut was telling me, which was, this is not normal. Why does this man not like me? Why is he kind of making me, you know, undermining me in front of my team as a senior player, which he wasn't doing to other senior players. All of this stuff was going on in my head and trying to figure out how to deal with that was very difficult. So me being me, I kind of just got on with it.

And I always say this, that that period in my career was the most successful period I scored the most goals so I was challenging all of that energy into just doing my job and trying to score as a kind of safe haven to survive but I was really unhappy at the time so it's this juxtaposition between like being this really unhappy person but actually doing your job very well because that's where I was challenging all that energy but essentially when it clicked to me that this was racist this was bullying this was undermining essentially I didn't want to like as you said I didn't want to just make that accusation without knowing that that was sure and that was the case so I was writing a lot of stuff down I remember writing to the director

of football at the time and saying look this is happening but please just log this I don't want to do anything about it but if something happens in the future to me or somebody else you know that I've reported this and it was a confidential thing but that helped me later on to be able to say look this isn't just something that I've woken up and decided to do this has been going on for a long time and I spoke about this two years ago and maybe that's just the lawyer in me just always kind of trying to log things and write things down and processing my feelings in writing it really did help I also just think you're very reasoned as a person and I'm going to categorize the comments because I think it's necessary but the first hint that you got of something being awry was a coach

being heard to say that you were quote lazy as fuck yes and very clearly in the book you itemize why that's more offensive than it might first appear yeah but you don't take action but tell us why it's got connotations that comment i think as first of all you're not lazy i can tell that immediately well you know I think being lazy on a football pitch is a matter of opinion and that can come across in different ways so you might not try and track back for your team you might not be running you might not be making forward runs specifically whatever they might be a coach has a right to say that that actually wasn't the case in the game it was

actually a very good game for me personally but it goes beyond that because there's so many things that could have been said at that time but lazy was the first thing the kind of derogatory comment that made and the reason why it's layered is because that is a stereotype and that tends to be one of the first things that people say about black players when they want to say something negative and it goes back to what we spoke about earlier about stereotypes negative stereotypes there is a stereotype attached around black people for being lazy which dates back to slavery which dates back to not wanting to work when slaves wanting to resist their slave masters the slave master would call them lazy but it actually was an act of resistance

that I'm not going to do this work so without understanding that you can't understand where it's coming from and people said all the time well anybody, anybody can be called lazy. Yes, that's right. But I'm a black woman. So it's understanding what you're saying and who you're saying it to. You have to be careful. Now, I don't know, I can't tell you to this day whether that was meant as a racist statement. But when you look at the pattern of events and the pattern of things that were said to me, I have to include that as part of the course of things that happened to me beautifully explained and I would also add that actually knowledge of the context is something that we all have to educate ourselves 100% yeah it got worse so Mark Sampson talked about how your family might have Ebola yes and also and i put this in heavy quotation marks joked about one of your teammates having been arrested four times in the past she'd never been arrested once yeah and and i think it's important to say that she'd never been arrested once so to anyone he says that too would have been wrong but she was the only person of color in the room and it was her first England cap so why he chose to kind

of pick on her and that moment rather than kind of celebrate the fact that you know this is your first England cap this is your first you know and she's never played for England since so her attachment to the England team is that that experience and she was a very good friend of mine at the time and confided in me and I think it goes back to what happened at school with the boy I was as angry about that than I was about what was happening to me and I was furious at the time because it was like okay this is just ridiculous this is just a pattern now but yeah that's what was going on in the team and everybody was kind of as footballers we were

turning a blind eye to it I suppose because we just wanted to play football and I think what was happening at that time leads into your third failure which is failed relationships in your life and the reason I say it leads into it because I know we're going to talk about more than your team relationships but the one of the things that was said about you by Mark Sampson the coaches was that you isolated yourself and that you were withdrawn and aloof but now now it makes perfect sense of course you were isolating yourself yeah I probably was isolating myself because I was in an environment that I wasn't I didn't feel valued and trusted and I was just trying to survive and I guess that's what I do and that's

what people do when they don't feel part of a team they don't feel supported and I'm not that person I'm very much part of a team I'm center of the dressing room cracking jokes dancing you know at the time I was still kind of speaking on behalf of the team in the media I was speaking on behalf of the team with central contract negotiations that's not who I am but because I felt so undermined all of the time and so anxious I just separated myself from the group so without admitting I think what was going on that was the accusation that was thrown at me yeah that was difficult as well yeah that must have really hurt yeah because it was a reaction to what a context that was going on but people didn't really want to appreciate the context they just wanted to look at my behavior but everybody's behavior as a result something

I wasn't like that for 10 years so nobody asked the question well how is she a valued member of the team for 10 years and all of a sudden she's become this person there's a reason for that as I mentioned in the introduction Mark Sampson apologized last year finally for those comments and I think that was the first time he admitted making them does that apology mean anything to you it was a process for me because I speak about this in the book as well just the lesson of forgiveness and just being able to let go of things that people have done to you that really, really hurt. At first, I was furious and angry and thought it was very cowardly because he had my number, he had my email. And actually, other people from the Football Association had apologised to me face to face, but he hadn't and he chose to apologize through the media which I felt was perhaps a PR campaign for him to kind of move into another job but at the end of the day I had to let go of all of that

and decide okay like am I going to stay angry at this man forever am I going to attach anger to this episode in my life forever that actually I had to go through in order to be the person I am today so it was a big process for me to let go of it all and actually start to think of it in a way that this man deserves a second chance in football he deserves a chance to move on as I that's like the way I was processing it so that it made me feel better about all of that going on. And actually the way it is now, because of the way social media is, people actually fight on your behalf anyway. You don't need to say anything. And sometimes I go on Twitter and I see people speaking about the case and speaking about that whole episode.

people speaking about the case and speaking about that whole episode and I think well people get it you know I don't need to hold this anger anymore and this kind of resentment I can let it go and move on you say in the book I know that we're quoting the book a lot but it's so phenomenally worth it because you say in the book and another one of the beautiful quotes is that forgiveness is a decision yes yes it is and whether you're a footballer mother it applies to everyone because we we all get disappointed by people we get hurt we get let down by people that we love and it's really painful but you can choose to hold that and have it sit in your head or you can try as much as possible to let it go and forgive that person and it really is a crossroads it's a decision like and in that moment it is literally a decision and it's an action that

you can take and I think it's really important for people to understand that because I think people hold so much resentment and pain because they don't know how to let go and move on you also say that you forgive but you never forget which is very much what my my life philosophy you can't like undo something that happens can you you just can't like that's not how the brain works but you can decide how to like process that emotion yeah I think it's a decision and I think it's something that like I've had to kind of speak about and that's part of my process as well like that verbalizing it helps me to because I think when things sit in your head they kind of rot away at you so like verbalizing it speaking to you know psychologists and therapists really helps me to just turn it into a more positive emotion.

So failed relationships. Tell us why you picked that as your third and final failure. You know, I'm not a sort of, I guess, a standard woman in the sense that, you know, I've had a successful sporting career and I've had to be quite selfish throughout my life in terms of my decisions. And that's really had an impact on my love life I think many women can relate it's this idea that you have to choose you know you either choose a career as a woman or you choose a family or relationship and I don't necessarily think that should be the case and it's really about saying that now at this point in my life it's understanding that you know there was a level of selfishness that I had in my relationships

my sort of romantic relationships that I kind of regret in a way that I wish I balanced it a bit out a bit more um but it's also being able to say how how do I find a balance with that now? Were your partners threatened by your success? I think some were. I think it's, yeah, I think, you know, one of my boyfriends, he didn't really know how to deal with it. You know, it was like, well, I love what you do, but if what you do is going to kind of affect this relationship, I'm not for it. And it was always a choice, a juggling act. So it was difficult and I see those as failed relationships

because it was like a choice of one or the other and it shouldn't be. You should have, as a woman, you should be able to have a successful career and share your life with somebody. Do you ever talk to your brother about this? Because obviously he's yeah a footballer but his experience of football is probably very different yeah yeah well he yeah it's completely different I mean he he didn't have to juggle another career in law he

didn't have to juggle another career full stop because from the age of 18 he was earning a lot of money and you know the professional setup in the men's game is very secure and and there's so many different pathways and in terms of relationship he's the coveted one yeah exactly you know he's not short of you know female admirers whereas for me as a female footballer you don't get many admirers I mean do, but it's not to an extent where it becomes a serious relationship. A lot of men are threatened by that. And it's, you know, I suppose I'm speaking to men that listen to the podcast.

Like, don't be threatened by successful women. You know, it's like, we're not driven to the point where we are scary human beings. I love speaking to people and I love engaging with people and my career is one side of myself but there's also a side that I really like just normal things like dating and falling in love and all that kind of stuff so I think it's just I'm just trying to kind of debunk the stereotype and I think a lot of my relationships have failed as a result of perhaps me being in line with that kind of stereotype but also men not

seeing you know that women can actually be life partners too who are successful so how does any eluko date i just try and do what normal people do i go out to events or bars or and just meet people and try as much as possible not to talk about football like that's really important like I don't want to go on a date and feel like I'm being interviewed that's also happened because the thing is hard it's like football is my passion and a lot of men love football so it's an icebreaker right but at the same time you don't want it to be what defines your relationship because I have other interests I love the arts I love going to the theatre I love cinema I love travel

I love reading like there's so many other things I want to talk about but the footballer in you is kind of what people see and sometimes what men see so that's what I'm trying to do I'm just trying to like you know just put myself out there and which is what I haven't always done but in terms of our relationship there's also the friendship element of you know when you're a successful person sometimes it can be difficult to know who to trust sometimes it can be difficult to know who to confide in because some people just are jealous and some people don't know how to like support other successful people people think success is something that's like a commodity that runs out but there's enough for everybody you know and actually the more you're around people that are progressing in life and doing

positive things the more positive things you're going to do but not everybody thinks like that particularly in women's sport it's like there's one slice of the pie and everybody has to kind of do this rat race. And I have a lot of failed relationships as a result of that. Like friends that just became enemies because there was jealousy between us. I know that you felt very betrayed when the England team, your former teammates, showed support for Mark Sampson in a very visible way. And not many of them reached out to you yeah well not publicly yeah I mean it's a hard one because looking back I look back and I think well

maybe none of them are friends like maybe a lot of them just weren't friends and so my expectation was wrong in the first place and I think we we need to understand who our friends are before we have any expectation of them you can see somebody every day for 11 years and play in the same team as them and not be friends like that is possible it's sad but it's possible so I take responsibility as well and understanding that like my expectations are probably wrong I also take responsibility and understanding that they were in a difficult position in the England team they want to continue being in the England team and if you have a wrong. I also take responsibility in understanding that they were in a difficult position. In the England team, they want to continue being in the England team. And if you have a culture and an

environment that ostracizes people that speak out, why would I expect anybody to speak out? I lost my career. Drew Spence lost her career. There's few girls that lost their careers by kind of speaking out and saying things against that manager so the expectation for people to speak for me and lose their careers like that's just not going to happen so I take responsibility for that but I think the part that disappoints me the most is the fact that this was an issue of racism in the England team which was proven which a lot of girls heard and saw nobody decided to say regardless of which side we take this cannot be happening in the england team this is wrong and we do not stand for this i think that's where they let themselves down drew spence by the way was your former

teammate yes sorry mark sampson said about the arrests too. Where are we now with racism in football? We're in a really interesting place because I think five years ago, it was a taboo word. The R word was like, oh my God, like we can't really have a mature conversation about racism in football. Nobody wanted to touch it. It was the elephant in the room. Now we're almost overexposed to the conversation to the point where I actually feel like it's more about kind of getting clicks

and the media are talking about it because they know it sells and they know that it's a conversation that divides opinion rather than actually being part of the solution. So I'm glad and I'm happy that we're talking about it very openly and people having very mature conversations and looking at their part to play. But at the same time, now I'm really keen to get to a solution in the game where it doesn't happen as frequently, where players aren't sort of subject to racial abuse on the pitch, where a black player or person of colour coming out and saying something doesn't lead to sort of racial stereotypes being played in the media. I really want to get to the point where there's solutions being drawn out rather than it just being a conversation.

rather than it just being a conversation you are very active on twitter in the most brilliant way and recently have been very outspoken again in a brilliant way about megan and harry yeah i don't get why people don't see them first and foremost as human beings like they're human beings and yes they have a duty to be royal and a royal obligation but there is nothing in life that obliges you to be unhappy nothing and that includes the royals and so them coming out and saying actually we're going to take a step back from this life that we're uncomfortable with, that brings us unhappiness, that doesn't give us peace, I think is incredibly brave, incredibly brave. And to say we're happy to let go of all the benefits of that. I mean, what that looks like, I don't really know whether it's, you know, they let go of the titles and all that. But I think they've made it quite clear that we

are willing to be financially independent for our happiness, our peace I think that's huge a huge message for everybody like wherever you are in the world whoever you are if you are unhappy you need to figure out how to move towards something that makes you happy but do you think it's also a huge message about the society we live in in Britain where they feel happier in Canada and we haven't been able to accept a biracial Duchess of Sussex well I think that goes back to the point about the media or sections of the media in England just being honest and saying we peddle racism and it sells that then plays into what you see on twitter many people talking about mega markle in a very derogatory way playing into these stereotypes that she has decided to kidnap harry and go to canada what if harry wanted this all along and has met a woman

that wants the same thing as him like that's probably more likely to be the case i mean harry has not been he's not made it a secret that he struggled with being in a fishbowl as a royal his mother died as a consequence of you know this kind of media chase constant media chase so i think it's really sad and i think it is a reflection of the sections of the british media that play into these racial stereotypes were never happy with a biracial princess whatever you want to call megan duchess of sasics were never happy when she then had a child that was part black like it goes back to what we're saying earlier that like people really go crazy when something different balances out stereotypes in their head and that is probably the worst form of racism because it's so deeply entrenched and

I think Megan probably realized that this isn't going to change because I do think that she's a person that for her to get married into the royal family and for her to get married to Harry she would have known this is significant. This is going to change the way people see the royal family. The way she went about their wedding, they had an all black choir. That was a decision, you know, that was a decision to really meet that, you know, the stereotype. So she tried. I think she really tried. But at the end of the day, she's a human being. I think it comes to a point where it's like this isn't going to change I need to go to my happy place I really respect them for it and I think everybody should like just step away from the like royalists and old taxpayer and we're

paying this and we're paying that forget that they're human beings and they've chosen to just be happier they've set a boundary yeah and I think we all need to do that. Just finally, Annie, one of the things that really impressed me again about your book was how you were talking in the midst of all of this that was going on with the FA and with Mark Sampson, and in the midst of the Twitter storms and sections of the British press peddling racism, storms and sections of the British press peddling racism you somehow found strength within yourself to be okay with yourself and with your own opinion of yourself yeah that is something that I know so many listeners struggle with how did you find that strength oh well that's the biggest one of the biggest lessons for me was self-validation. Because I started listening to the voice, the negative voices in my head that was telling me I wasn't good enough,

that were feeding into the energy I was getting from the team and from the manager. And it was really making me unhappy. And again, it was like a decision, like, okay, what do I do? And I remember my mom saying to me, you're focusing too much on that negativity, on that voice. You've got to balance that out. And the only person that can do that, honestly, is you. You can try and be around people that make you feel better, but you're the person that goes to bed at night on your own

and still has these voices in your head like we spend a lot of time in our own heads and so the quicker we can control that voice ourself the better and so I just started like watching clips of myself scoring goals I started watching clips of myself where I was smiling I started putting photos up where I was like with people I really liked and family and just that positive reinforcement of myself um and it just changed my voice like I was like the first thing I was saying in the morning was like yes you can do this you look good or whatever it may be that voice might be different for different people but it's a positive voice and it's that not needing validation from other people because I was like trying to get

validation from a manager that was never going to give it to me he didn't like me and you know there's some people that just don't like you for whatever reason and a lot of time they're projecting their own fear and their own dislike of themselves so you can the only person that you can kind of guarantee can give you that validation is yourself and I don't think a lot of people do it are conscious of the fact that it's a thing like do it and like tell yourself you're good enough watch yourself listen to your work or read your whatever it may be um to make yourself feel better about who you are and what you do do you you have friends now? Yeah I have amazing friends I have amazing friends and there's like a handful of people that I really really really call really kind of close

friends the rest are kind of acquaintances and I that's probably the case for a lot of people there's a rule that for me there's you only need like four friends in your life and four very good friends I think I realized who they were through very difficult moments in my life. And it's one of the reasons why I moved back to London actually. After being in Italy for 18 months I was really missing my friends. And just like going out and just having a good old chinwag at a restaurant or you know going to the theatre or concert. It wasn't something I was able to build unfortunately when I was in Italy so I started feeling very isolated so it's something

that I think we all need just that friendship that is unconditional any luco I'll be your unconditional friend any day of the week yes thank you so much what great chat I cannot thank you enough for your eloquence and your passion thank you for coming on the podcast thank you for having me if you enjoyed this episode of how to fail with Elizabeth Day I would so appreciate it if you could rate review and subscribe apparently it helps other people know that we exist.