How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S7, Ep8 How to Fail: Frankie Bridge

Episode Date: February 18, 2020

Frankie Bridge is probably best known as a member of one of the UK's most successful girl bands of all time, The Saturdays. But, more recently, it's as a mental health advocate that she has been making headlines. Her new memoir, Open: Why asking for help can save your life, is a brave and unflinchingly honest attempt to destigmatise the conditions that so many of us struggle with in private. Frankie lives with treatment-resistant depression. Initially, she struggled in silence but when she was hospitalised in 2011, she could no longer ignore the severity of what she was facing. Open tells the story of what happened next, of how she survived and of the decisions she makes on a daily basis to protect that survival.It was an honour to have her on the podcast to talk about all of this, especially in the wake of the devastating news about Caroline Flack. I met Caroline a few years ago and she was really lovely: so warm and funny and kind. I - like many of you - have been so sad and so shaken by the idea that she could see no other way out. I cannot imagine the pain that her family and friends are feeling. I am thinking of them. Although this interview with Frankie was recorded before any of us knew what Caroline was going through, Frankie has a lot to say about the dark places that depression can take you and offers many helpful insights into how to cope.Below are some useful numbers that can help you if you are going through a tough time or have been affected by any of the issues raised. Please know that you are not alone. Please know that, even if it doesn't feel like it right now, this too shall pass. You are loved, you are wonderful, you are unique. You are worthwhile. You exist. Please hold on. USEFUL NUMBERSContact Samaritans 24 hours a day, 365 days a year on 116 123 (free from any phone).If you don't feel like talking, text Shout to 85258 to get help from crisis volunteers 24/7 (free on all mobile networks). Mind, the mental health charity, is on 020 8519 212.*Frankie Bridge's memoir, Open,  is out now and available to order here.*This episode is sponsored by one of my favourite jewellery brands, Missoma. Visit uk.missoma.com and use the code ElizabethDay10 at checkout for 10% off your next purchase!*The Sunday Times Top 5 bestselling book of the podcast, How To Fail: Everything I've Ever Learned From Things Going Wrong is out now in paperback and available to buy here.*You can now buy exclusive How To Fail podcast merchandise - sweatshirts, t-shirts, mugs, post-its and notepads. The perfect gift for the failure in all of us! View the full range at howtofailshop.com*How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted by Elizabeth Day, produced by Naomi Mantin and Chris Sharp. We love hearing from you! To contact us, email [e-mail]* Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayFrankie Bridge @frankiebridge     Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by card, other conditions apply. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned

from failure. Frankie Bridge has an impressive track record. A member of one of the UK's most successful girl bands of all time, The Saturdays, she's been performing since the age of 11 and has achieved 19 UK top 10 singles and six UK top 10 albums during her career. She's a mother of two, a TV presenter, was a runner-up in the 12th series of Strictly Come Dancing and has just published her first book. All of that and she's still only 31. But the public-facing statistics only tell half of the story. Arguably the most impressive thing about Bridge is her resilience and her fearlessness in talking about her experience with depression. Initially she lived in silence but when she was hospitalised in 2011 she could no longer ignore the severity of what she was dealing with.

It was the beginning of a long road of understanding and acceptance. Her new memoir, Open, is an account of her mental health journey and a brave and honest attempt to destigmatise the conditions that so many of us struggle with in private. It is also a tribute to her husband, the footballer Wayne Bridge, to her two sons, and to the psychiatrist and psychologist who, as she puts it, saved her life. But Bridge does not shy away from the truth that living with depression is an ongoing process and that some days are better than others. If you ask me today if I think I'm a failure, I'd say no, Bridge said in a recent interview, but ask me tomorrow and I might say yes.

Frankie Bridge. Hello. How are you today? I'm good today. Actually on the way here, I had one of those moments where I managed to acknowledge that I am good today and I was like I feel like I nearly text Wayne and was like oh I feel good today thanks for everything and I don't know you know like it's really weird felt really grateful for everything this morning I found your book extremely powerful and I don't think I've ever read an account of depression and anxiety and panic attacks and disordered eating that has been so honest. And I definitely haven't read a celebrity talking that way about it. How much of a struggle was actually writing the book for you? Because you had to be really willing to go there. It kind of took me by surprise writing the book because first of all, I've never written a book

before in my life. So, you know, that was a hurdle in itself, but also I went into it really blase because I find talking about my mental health so easy. I thought, well, writing about it's going to be no different. And actually my mental health did take quite a hit from it. And I think that was a combination of going through notes. So reading Mel and Mike, my therapist and my psychiatrist notes and kind of learning things and remembering things that I'd maybe forgotten. And then also just the pressure of having to deliver this book that I'd promised everyone that I would there's this beautiful moment in the book where so the structure of it

is that your psychiatrist and psychologist man and mike they add in notes so at the end of a chapter they'll often be their take on something and it will point people who might be suffering from similar things in the right direction but there's this really wonderful moment where you talk about how you have been diagnosed with treatment resistant depression which essentially means that the drugs don't work and you talk about how you feel that you disappointed mike your psychiatrist yeah and he writes this note saying needless to to say, I'm not disappointed in Frankie and never could be. And it was so moving. But do you feel like that? Do you feel like you're a disappointment to people? Yes, I think that's just part of my DNA almost. I think I'll just always feel like I can do better. And I think that is just as much

for other people. You know, I feel like I let other people down in certain ways. And then also myself, you know, I'm such a perfectionist. And that comes with so many great things. And I think is a big part as to how I've managed to stay in my career as long as I have and whatever but also you know it means you're just constantly bashing yourself and telling yourself you could have done better on a daily basis can you ever remember a time where you didn't feel like that not really I suppose when I was younger I don't remember feeling like that as much but even then I was still I took a lot of pride in the way I looked and not that that's a bad thing but I suppose that was kind of the start of it and then I think just starting work from such a young age

you just get this sense of pressure of that or I'm the girl from Essex that did good and I feel like I have to keep that up otherwise I'm almost letting everyone down which I know isn't true but the brain just does silly things so as I mentioned in the introduction you've been working since the age of 11 yes and I didn't even know most of that stuff that you said I was like oh check me out what what happened when you were 11 you were at stage school weren't you yeah so I just used to go to a local dance school at first and I just loved it and the dance teacher said to my parents one day have you thought about sending Frankie to proper stage school and um my parents asked me if I wanted to go and I don't think I really understood what it was

properly and I was like yeah okay but obviously it's really expensive and it's in London and you know it's quite a big risk if it doesn't necessarily work out for you so my parents said to me well let's try a local one until you are old enough to go to secondary school and then if you really enjoy it then you can go and audition for Italia Conti, Sylvia Young whatever so I auditioned for our local one went there loved it and then S Club 7 were doing an open audition on CBeebies and just literally the night before I was like should we go didn't have a song practiced or anything like that and I think even that in itself shows the difference in my confidence then to now or maybe it's just being young just going oh yeah sod it let's just go and

give it a go so you ended up a member of s club eight yeah and that marked the beginning of a professional life that meant that you were often in the spotlight yeah so it struck me reading the book that quite often there were two Frankies. There was the public performing Frankie who somehow managed to get through some of the darkest times of your life and still get on stage. And then there was the private Frankie

who was dealing with all the other stuff, as I said, often in silence for a long time. How did that feel, having these two identities? Did it feel like having two identities? I don't think it did for a long time how did that feel having these two identities did it feel like having two identities I don't think it did for a long time I think it was only right when things really started coming to a head for me mentally was when I noticed it and I think there was a particular moment that I mentioned in the book where I went to go into like a meet and greet with fans before a show and I just remember having to take a second

to kind of compose myself and bring out Frankie from the Saturdays. And that was my first realisation that I'd kind of become two people. And I think that was a bit of a shock for me and a realisation that maybe things aren't quite right. But I think, again, that comes with not so much of the pressure that other people put on

you because obviously there is you become this person that you're supposed to be an idol and this that the other but also just on myself of that I want to be to these people the person that I think I am and I like to think that I'm quite I've always been myself on tv and whatever but I suppose it's that fine line of when you're in a band do people really want to know the sad stuff probably not really um it's only really now I feel able to kind of be as honest as I can so who is or who was Frankie from the Saturdays is it you but without the sad stuff yeah I think so like it wasn't like we were completely different people I still liked the things I said I liked and

you know I like to make people laugh and things and that is who I am but I think yeah it's taking away the depression and the anxiety and maybe faking the confidence a little bit because it's nuts considering how self-conscious I can be that I've chosen the industry that I have but I actually think a lot of people in our industry are quite like that. Yeah, I think that's part of the compulsion is that if you feel insecure for a long, and I speak from experience, that for a long time, you think that the way to deal with that is to get approbation from others and to get other people to like, as many people as possible to like you,

even the ones that you don't really know. And actually that's exhausting and never fills up the hole inside no and also once you've had that you know I've been in two pop groups now I've stepped out into arenas with people screaming and whatever and you can never get that feeling back and I can see how a lot of people can go off the rails in our industry because of that because you're always chasing it I'm not anymore it is that need to be liked even like you say by people who don't even know or even people that I don't even like I hate it if they don't like me it's pathetic I'm the same but what does that feel like just going on stage and there being tens of thousands of people screaming for you? It's nuts.

You never get used to it. And it's really hard to explain. But I suppose the difference is, you know, we've supported bands and stuff before. Or say if you go and do like the Jingle Bell Ball, for say, the arena is full of people for all different people. When you're in a group and, you know, when the Saturdays did their own tour and people, you know that everyone in that arena is there to see you guys. It's just the best feeling ever. It's just mad because you have to work so hard to get to that point. And it's just the payoff, I suppose.

Your first failure is your failure to talk about mental health. And I imagine what you mean is that for years you didn't talk about it but tell me why you picked that as your first failure because I think maybe things wouldn't have escalated as much as they did had I have been able to talk about it sooner because I'm a big believer in now now that I understand how my mental health works I kind of know that by just saying to someone oh I'm feeling rubbish today or maybe crying if I feel like I need to cry just giving in to the feelings and on days where I can just having a day in bed I find I get through it a lot quicker and I don't fall as deeply whereas I think I spent years pushing it down,

pushing it to the side, pretending like everything was fine. And I genuinely believe, had I have not done that for so long, that maybe I wouldn't have maybe had a mental breakdown. I don't know. And why were you not speaking about it? I think because I didn't understand it.

I had no idea what was happening. And by the time I did have my breakdown, I felt so out of control and lost. How do you explain something to people that you don't understand yourself? And I think that's the biggest thing with my book is the reason why I've got Mel and Mike involved is because they're the people that helped me to understand.

So it's almost me saying to people, look, here's the tools. These are the people that help me listen understand so it's almost me saying to people look here's the tools these are the people that help me listen to what they say because they helped me massively I also think it's about it being such an internal thing that you can never fully understand another person's internal self can you you can only see what you can see and try and connect as much possible so maybe you thought that other people felt like this as well and obviously other people do but it's not as common as maybe you thought maybe you thought that it was just normal to feel the way you were feeling yeah I think I've just always assumed that I don't know I always explain like I have a level of happiness and I think other people's are different but I think at the time

I also felt guilty because I was in a pop group that was successful I was living a really lovely life and I had basically everything I'd always wanted and yet I was completely miserable and I mean you feel an immense amount of guilt with depression anxiety anyway so then I think when you do have a life that you know you should be thankful for which I was the guilt is even worse because you're like how do you complain to people about a life that is supposedly perfect you posted on Instagram recently as well about Christmas and about how and I think so many people will relate to this sometimes it's the times when you're meant to be happy that are the times that you feel the

lowest yeah and I've seen that throughout my life now is I sometimes think the pressure to be happy in a situation is what freaks me out and sometimes when so say it's your birthday like my 30th it was like oh it's your 30th it's gonna be amazing we're gonna have so much it's your birthday like my 30th it was like oh it's your 30th it's gonna be amazing we're gonna have so much fun organized fun is like my idea of hell because I'm like oh god I've got to be happy I've got to love my life and I might not be feeling like that on that day and nine times out of ten I am but it's the build-up to that day and I think with Christmas it's again it's just another day out of the year but we have such high expectations of it which is hard enough for people I think that don't suffer from mental

health issues so if you do the pressure's on even more and I've just started to kind of relax on that a bit now and be a bit like oh it's not the best day of my life it's not and is that part of trying to live in the moment which I know is such a hard thing to do in not the best day of my life it's not and is that part of trying to live in the moment which i know is such a hard thing to do in fact that's one of your failures isn't it we'll come on to that we'll come on to that i thought that was your segue into it no i'm not that professional will no one rid me of this troublesome priest? This is a time of great foreboding.

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or listen to Let Me Say This ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. I wonder if you would mind taking us back, for people who have yet to read the book, as to what happened in 2011. What led up to the crisis point and what did it feel like for you? I think there's a lot of tears and I find even now I can pull myself together for work it doesn't matter how I feel I can get to work and I can do my job and I can do it properly

but it's that thing of like you know the people closest to you kind of get the worst part of you and it's so true because I'd go to work I'd be fine at work and then I'd just go home and cry myself to sleep and I'd be so full of adrenaline and so tired of pretending all day that then I wouldn't eat dinner so I wasn't properly nourished I wasn't looking after myself I was just kind of existing and then I think when I met Wayne my husband I realized and it sounds so weird and if you've not felt that way it's really hard to understand that I was happy but fundamentally I was unhappy and I think it took me to being happy to realize how unhappy I was and I just remember Wayne and I would have all these nights out planned and he'd often find me asleep on the

floor where I'd gone to get ready and I was just exhausted or I'd be crying and when I say crying I mean sobbing uncontrollably and there was a night where Wayne and I were supposed to be going out. And I don't know why I was eating yogurt before I went out. But he'd bought the wrong yogurts from the supermarket. And for me, that was a direct example of that he didn't understand me. And he didn't love me. And I just went into this meltdown about it and I pulled myself together we went out for dinner and Wayne said to me I'll just cheer up and I just flipped and he didn't

understand what was going on I didn't understand what was going on but I was just like do you not think that I want to be happy do you think I really want to be this way and he stormed off and we both kind of chilled out after a few hours and just both kind of said that this isn't right. This isn't normal. So my GP came over the next day, spoke to Mike, my psychiatrist, and everyone just agreed that maybe it was time I went into hospital because I was never going to get given the peace and quiet or the time that I needed if I was still working to properly get better so that's what we did. Did you feel shame at that point? I think by that point I didn't I didn't know how to explain it to people but it was like

a sense of relief that I was actually now going to do something properly about it. I think my sense of shame came from having to admit to people that my perfect life wasn't so perfect. And how long were you in hospital for? A month. Do you remember much about that period now? Not really. I suppose I remember probably the mainly the good bits because when I first went in, I was so out of it mentally. I was exhausted and I was put on so much medication when I first went in because I'd not been sleeping for months. So I had sleeping tablets to help me to sleep. They were trying out all sorts of antidepressants anti-anxiety medication so I kind of slept for the first week or so that I was in there even now like my sister told me she came to

visit me one day and she bought my guitar and then we popped out for dinner and this sat the other and she had her friend with her that we're still really close to and I do not remember him being there I don't even remember her coming and that's weird so weird but I do remember feeling when I started feeling better just so relaxed because it was so nice to be in an environment where I didn't have to hide it anymore and we were all in the same boat and people would talk about medication like it was normal and it just just was, there was no shame in it. There was no shame in being there. And it was nice seeing people as well that were worse than me, as awful as that sounds, because it just kind of helped you put everything into context.

Before you got to the hospital, had you been scared of what your mind was doing to you? Yeah, because I had times where I felt suicidal and I'd never planned a suicide but I just had this feeling of like I just remember saying to Wayne sometimes I just want to die just don't want to be here and that just purely came from a point of I don't know how else to shut off my mind because I'm just tired because I could have this conversation with you now and be having a million with myself at the same time or she doesn't like me she thinks I'm stupid or you know so many things and um that just wears you down after a while and also it comes from a place of everyone else's life would be better if I wasn't here. Because you just think that low of yourself.

You just feel like you're doing everyone a favour. And that scares me. I don't think I would have ever acted on it, but it's not a great place to be. I really like you. I think you're incredibly bright. And more importantly, my cat likes you and bounded up to you. I know. And cats can tell.

So I completely understand that idea of having a million conversation I think you put that so well constantly assessing the environment what someone's thinking of you how someone else is feeling carrying a lot of that emotional baggage yourself yeah that's a lot thank you for expressing it like that that's okay there was another passage in your book that really struck me because I think it was so relatable and your reaction to it was so understandably extreme which was that you were in a car and you were driving to meet Wayne you had an appointment I think to see a house yeah and you were running late and where your brain went with it was I'm running late I'm worthless like how can I not get my life together

to be on time Wayne deserves so much but the better he deserves a woman who can get her shit together and be punctual yeah were there a thousand or a million moments like that yeah so many and it sounds so simple now you know you were just late it's not the end of the world but just at that time I just felt like I could do nothing right. Nothing was right. It could be the silliest things. I could burn a bit of toast or whatever. It's just mad when you think back now how your brain can just escalate so quickly and so easily. At that same time, I was like, oh, I might as well just drive into the wall. And then I was annoyed because I was in traffic so I couldn't even do that oh you can't even do that right you know you could just tick everything off

tick tick tick you're bad tick tick tick you know and it's just one thing after another and I think that's just how you end up in that situation of feeling awful because you're just beating yourself up all the time from every single angle and it also, as you mentioned about control, that attempt which is always going to fail to impose control on the world around you. And for you, that showed itself in various different ways. And one of them was obsessive compulsive disorder. And one of the other ways was disordered eating. Now, I want to be really careful about this

because you yourself in the book never used the word anorexia. Your psychiatrist, I think, does. What do you think was going on? I suppose it was a form of anorexia. I wouldn't have said, you know, when I was in hospital, I'd seen a lot of people with full blown eatingown eating disorders and I think that's why I never particularly named it because I don't feel like I was so far down a path as some people go and I think it was that typical thing of it all came down to control I felt although I loved my life and being in a band was amazing you don't any control. You get told what time you need to be out of the house, where you're going to be all day, when you can or can't have breakfast, lunch and dinner, when you can go to the toilet, what you're going to wear, you know, it's everything. And that was

my normal life from the age of 12. You know, I didn't know any different, but also I suppose with the eating thing, it was a way of me clawing back some of that control I don't ever remember having a moment of this is what I'm gonna do you know I did put a lot of pressure on myself in the way that I looked within the band and I felt like a lot of my role in the band was down to how I looked you know my hair or who I was going out with or whatever so I felt like I had to be on top of that again perfectionism making sure that I was on top of it and then it just became a way of life I didn't even think about it and then by the time I went into hospital I was the lowest weight I'd ever been but again that was more out of I was so

high on adrenaline I was constantly shaking I just wasn't hungry and it just wasn't an important part of my day also you were being trolled online for your appearance at some points weren't you when you were in the band and that is one of the brutalities I imagine of being in the public eye is that everyone has an opinion people who wish you harm have an opinion which is horrible yeah it's weird because when I first started in S Cup 8 there was none of that so I was so blissfully unaware of people's opinions and I was so young and I'm so pleased that I had that opportunity to experience it without all of that and to have been at school without it even but in the Saturdays it started off not there and then slowly slowly got more and more with social media and whatever that was hard because it would be fine I think if it

was something that I didn't already think of myself but you know say if I was thinking oh I'm really fat and then someone sent me a message calling me fat that to me was then okay well it's true because someone's confirmed it and that's I just think it can be so brutal for kids at school I just think I'm so glad I'm not in that era of having to deal with that at school what were your band members doing around this time were they aware that something was up with you I mean you refer in the book to points where they had to kind of physically support you I think I hid it really well for a really long time I can't remember to be honest how aware of it they were it was more after I'd been in hospital that then it was kind of no longer hidden because there was a time when we decided okay let's because we had to go on tour

so we were going to ease me in back into work and do a couple of like smaller gigs with the girls. And I went to do my first one with them, did sound check. And then I just had a massive panic attack and couldn't do the show. And that was the first time the girls had ever seen me have one. And I can remember their faces. I think they were just terrified. I think they just didn't know what to do. You know, I think they quickly learned there isn't anything they can do,

and they just kind of have to let me ride it out. But I hadn't really realized up until that point that they hadn't really experienced it with me. So I guess it was a big shock for them. Is there a Saturday's WhatsApp group? Yes. Excellent. Of course.

There is gossiping on there. You know, if we if we see something oh have you seen this or whatever it's just like the same chat we always used to have and it's hard to get us all together in one room so most of our conversations go on on whatsapp and when we are together it's like no time has passed you know it's one of those we're like family now true friendship yeah you know you don't have to see everyone's always like oh when did you last see the girls I'm like ages ago but it will make no difference to when I see them next can I be really nosy and ask if there's a group icon picture oh my god yeah there is but I don't know what it is that's such a good question I'm gonna ask you to check after this yeah I'll show you afterwards I don't know why I don't know what it is imagine if it's like the Saturday sign or something it's embarrassing I hope it's even like floor leg sequin dance so do I um when you came out of

hospital after that month of treatment it wasn't then like everything is cured and fine and it's all okay no as I said in the introduction, it's a lifelong journey, especially with you because your depression is treatment resistant. So talk to us a bit about medication and what you went through with that and where you are now with it. I've tried so many because the reason I'm treatment resistant is I will go on a medication and this is if I don't have any side effects we'll stick to that one and then I'll feel great and then after a couple of months

I'll start feeling rubbish again so we'll up the dosage and that will kind of be what keeps happening and then we get to a point of the dosage where we can't go any higher so then sometimes microliver add another one in and mix a few together or change completely so I end up on the levels of like what a man would be on and then these are just the ones that you know I've been on somewhere my mouth is ridiculously dry or I get like muscle spasms or headaches or whatever all sorts of things so it's been a real journey with the medication I'm now on one I get confused as to whether it's like a really new modern one or if it's like a really old fashion one I can't remember but it's the one I've been on the longest that seems to work the best for me with the least amount of side effects so that's great and I think it's really important

and I salute you for talking openly about this for people who are listening who are ashamed or worried about the stigma of going on medication it's so important that you talk openly about it yeah when I first spoke about my depression back in 2012 I didn't talk about my medication because it was I don't mention it it was I was actually told not to talk about it and now by kind of management or yeah yeah now I just think why that's where the problem lies is I'm not saying to everyone you're not going to be fixed unless you have medication because everyone is different for me I wouldn't be able to live a normal life without it and I think it's Mike my psychiatrist that's helped me to understand that in that if I was diabetic or something you wouldn't tell me I shouldn't be on my medication and it's no different

I just want other people to feel like they can take it if they want I've had friends that just take their selves off it which is so bad for you because they just have this notion in their head that they shouldn't be taking it and And I just think it's sad. If it makes you feel better, then why the hell not? What would you like to say to the Frankie who was in an extremely dark place and feeling really lost and alone and unhappy? And in turn, what would you like to say to other people listening to this who are feeling the same way? What's the most important thing that they or she could have done?

feeling the same way what's the most important thing that they or she could have done I think obviously there's always the obvious answer talk to someone which always sounds really straightforward but coming from someone who knows I know how difficult that can be but I think that other thing is just it sounds so, but to cling on to the hope that there is going to be a better day. And I just think when you're in the depths of it, you don't believe that. And that's why you're always trying to find a way out. And I think just give into it, let it take you over and you will come out the other side. You talk in the book about your nan who had this name for you sunshine and showers yeah and I thought that was so beautiful because it ties into something that I firmly believe that

life is texture and life is a combination of different emotions but also because showers pass and you talk about that too that this too will pass that the feeling although it feels never ending when you're in it it does pass and if you can have faith in that that's the main thing yeah yeah and that's kind of what I open my book with is like one of my favorite words I've got it tattooed on my finger is hope and I think you need to just cling on to it for as much as possible and yeah my nan bless her she just figured me out from the get-go that you know I am a mixture of both and I still am I still am exactly the same you know and I quite like that term it makes it sound a bit nicer than

what it is your second failure is your failure to have a solo career yeah which seems like impossible I don't know why you haven't had a solo career well I had well you're telling me no I had the opportunity after S Club Juniors I was signed on my own by Simon Fuller and back then that was like all I wanted I was like finally you know made it into a solo career now I can't think of anything worse but at that time I was so excited about it but also just so ridiculously terrified of it because I'd come from S Club Juniors from where I'd gone from the age of 11 to the age of I think I was about 15 16 so I changed quite a lot in that time and although I had a great time, as I said, my every day was

carved out for me, what I wore, what I did. And I didn't have time for hobbies. You know, I'd always, even now, I hate that question in an interview, what's your hobbies? I'm like, I don't have time. Who has time? I basically do my hobby as a job. Like, what do you want from me? And it would make me feel so boring so I just had no idea who I was so I'd gone from being told what I was doing every day who I was meant to be almost to well what music do you want to do what image do you want to have and all these questions were aimed at me and I was very aware of the fact that Simon Fuller was this massive manager and he was amazing he was so lovely and he had real massive belief in me from day one in S Club

Juniors he'd like pulled my parents aside and just said like you know she's got it you know she's gonna whether S Club Juniors works or not I want to work with her and that was massive you know it's a real shock I think even to my parents like really so I think I felt an immense amount of pressure and I didn't know what music I liked I'd go shopping look at clothes I didn't know what clothes I liked I just didn't know who I was so it was really difficult to carve a solo career not knowing what the hell you want it to be and so I'd go and record these songs and they were a little bit like Rachel Steven-esque at the time and I loved her at the time but it wasn't me I eventually got a bit more into like you know like Avril Lavigne and that kind of thing and at that time I was like yeah maybe

that's what I want to do more like pop rock but that wasn't particularly a cool thing at the time and whatever and I do these little showcase performances and they were shocking so bad because I was just so nervous because I'd gone from the backup of seven other people to kind of being a bit of a robot to now having to kind of lay myself bare in a room full of like three or four people and it was just horrendous like when I think back now I just think they must have all been like what the hell is going on who is this girl and so although it was a failure because in the end Simon just said to me look go away for a year figure out who you are what, what you want, and come back and see me.

And it took me much longer than that. And then I ended up on Saturdays. So it all worked out. So how old were you when Simon Fuller said take a year? I think I was about 16, I think. I mean, who knows who they are at that age? No one. I know, I know.

It's really interesting that because it just strikes me that it's all about identity. No. It's really interesting that because it just strikes me that it's all about identity. And as you say, being secure enough to have your own take on the world, which by the way, I still massively struggle with. Like I'll think I have an opinion and then I'll hear someone else putting the opposite point of view and I'll be like, oh, that's a good point. Maybe, maybe they're right and I'm wrong. But I think that's a better way to be. Well, I would say that, but I've come to the conclusion that it's, that's in a way to be. Well, I would say that, but I've come to the conclusion that it's, that's in a way more compassionate because you're more open to other people. But how much has becoming a mother

helped you with that sense of self? Massively, to be honest, because obviously I have a constant sense of purpose because, you know, I can try and run away from it as much as I want but I am a mum now you know and they rely on me whether I'm I think before I had kids I had this notion that oh you know life will carry on as normal I'll still be able to go out and work and this that the other but no one tells you about the guilt you'll feel when you're doing those things

away from your kids so they've helped me in loads of way in purpose and in my need for control. Because once you've had kids, you realize you can't control anything in life because just look at them. They just run around. They do whatever they want. You know, you don't want them to hurt themselves, but they're going to fall down. They're going to cry. They do have that amazing innocence that you forget that you ever had they're not screwed up yet yeah you know and it's so nice to see that they don't know about you know they're only four and six they don't know about terrorism they don't know about brexit they don't know all this stuff and it's so nice you know you watch them on a trampoline and it's the best thing that's ever

happened to them and it just reminds you to enjoy the small things not that I manage it all the time but it's just nice to see you talk in the book about this incident at an airport where you stood up for yourself but on behalf of your children which again like spoke to me so deeply I mean I'm not a mother but that idea that you couldn't have stood up for yourself in that way before your children but because it was about them tell us what happened she sounds a nightmare yeah it's weird it seems to be like a theme in my life really I will never stick up for myself even now it's something I really struggle with but I had a best friend when I was younger who used to get bullied and I used to stand up to people all the time at school that I look back now and I'm like what were you thinking I was like half the size of them and they were like the cool kids and I like

just didn't care because I was just like how dare you and I felt like that was my place because he couldn't do it and it's kind of the same with the boys so I was on the plane and we were on our way I think we're on our way to Portugal we were delayed on the tarmac for about an hour and Parker my eldest was only about I think about two at the time and he was being like I am always the first to say when my kids are being naughty because nine times out of ten I think they are he was just walking up and down the aisle so I was like there's no point in making him sit down because we've got four hours once we take off and he was actually helping the air hostess she was like dropping sugar and stuff on the floor and he was like picking it up for her and he wasn't making any noise or anything so I just kind of left him to it obviously watching

what he was doing and this woman but they said oh seatbelt sign on so I got Parker I went to put him in the chair and she said you need to control your naughty child and I was just like first of all she said the word control and I was like he's not an animal and second of all he's not naughty and she just kind of looked up from her book really snooty and it's just the way she said it as well and I just went into one I don't know where it came from and I was right at the front of the plane which made it worse and I was calling her a bitch which I never do and I was like if you want to be on your own and don't want to deal with the public then get yourself a private jet and I was like how dare you you bitch so bad such a commoner and then the woman in front had a baby

and she turned around and she was like yeah how dare you it's hard enough for people blah blah and her husband didn't look up once. He just kept his head in his book. Yeah, so he was obviously like, oh, God, she's done it again. Yeah, I just kept going off on one. And she just kept repeating herself. And then all of a sudden, I just started crying. And then I was like, oh, my God.

I just kind of like came back into myself and was like, you're at the front of the plane. Everyone's probably looking at you. You might get thrown off. Like like I wasn't being aggressive and then I just kind of like I don't think I crawled but I felt like I kind of crawled back to like where Wayne's mum was sitting and was like shaking and crying and then like I looked at Wayne and I was like why didn't you say anything and he was like well babe I've never seen you like that in like the years I think we'd been together like what eight years then he was like in the eight years that I've known you I've not seen you talk like that to anybody he was like I didn't think you needed my help and I was like oh my god and then the whole flight I

mean he felt Parker fell asleep didn't make a peep the whole flight and then I just had people the whole journey coming up to me telling me how well they thought I dealt with the situation which firstly I was like really I was calling her a bitch quite a lot I wouldn't say that that's the right way to deal with it and everyone was just like oh it's really hard people don't understand you were great and then when we landed her husband had the blooming cheek to say to me oh your son was perfect the whole flight or whatever and I just wanted to turn around and be like do you think I give a you should just say to him you should have said to him, you need to control your wife. Yeah, you need to control your naughty wife. But it just, yeah, it's one of...

And I've had it again since, not being quite as aggressive, but where people have made comments and I don't have any trouble in letting them know what I think. But if they'd said something to me, I probably wouldn't say a word. But how brilliant that given you are who you are

and there are a million conversations going on in your head about whether you're doing the right thing and whether someone likes you that on that flight you had all those people coming up to you independently saying you did do the right thing and we're really proud of you yeah it was lovely but even now I feel awful for calling her a bitch well maybe she's listening to this podcast. I'm sorry, but can you keep yourself to yourself? Yeah, right. Perfect, perfect. I know that they're still very young, your sons,

but have you thought about how you will explain what you live with day to day? Or do you talk about it now with them? Or do they notice when you're having a down day? I've never had the conversation with them. But about two weeks ago, I had a Sunday where I just couldn't get out of bed and I just didn't feel like I could cope with the day that day and Wayne's amazing because

he'll just he'll try and encourage me to get up but if he knows that it's not worth it that day he'll just take the kids out so that day he took the boys to the park he took them for lunch you know just kind of kept them busy so I don't't really tell them, we'll just say, oh, mommy just doesn't feel well today. And they don't tend to ask, you know, they're so young, they don't tend to ask any questions, bar that. And as long as they're having a good day, they don't really care. But they will, I can tell when they know that I'm feeling down, they'll just come and give me extra little cuddles. They're quite affectionate anyway, because I am, I'm a hugger. And I tell them far too often that I love them. And they kind of do the same back. And I have noticed that when

I am having those days, they come and give me more. Like if they're playing downstairs, they'll just come up, give me a cuddle, love you, mommy, and then go back downstairs. So they're cute with it. But I don't think they worry, because they can can worry but they don't seem to at the minute well Wayne Bridge sounds amazing I mean he's very lucky to have such an amazing wife but he really does come out of the book like this quiet hero yeah I mean don't get me wrong you're the hero of your own story but but but I think you you pay tribute to him in a really lovely way well he deserves it I mean don't get me wrong obviously it's not perfect no one is does my brain in sometimes but I appreciate him in a way that maybe I don't always let him know but he has to as much

as I have to live with this he has to as well and he's done his best to understand it he's had sessions with Mal and Mike back in the day when I was in hospital to help him to understand what I was going through and you know he must have days where he can't help but take it personally and I don't blame him for that because for him he must be like well I've got to be doing something wrong because she's unhappy and I know that deep down he knows that fundamentally that's not true. But it doesn't stop your mind from going there. And I'd be the same with him. Does he reassure you that you are lovable because of everything you are,

rather than in spite of the darkness? He shows his love more than he'll say. The fact that he stuck around so early on when he could have just run for his life, basically, if he wanted to. And even now, just in the way that he doesn't try to fix me, he's not trying to change me ever. He'll come and give me a hug. And then, like, the other day when he took the boys out

he'll just text me and say how you doing I'm still in bed why don't you try and just go for a run or go for a walk if that's all you feel like you can do but he's not like get out of bed go and do you know and then he'll text me again did you get out no and he's like oh all right I'll be home soon you know he's not gonna make me feel bad about anything when I said about the book I was nervous because obviously that's our life in there and he got really emotional when it first come out and it's the proudest I've ever seen him of me he tells everyone about it he can't wait to tell them that I didn't have a ghostwriter that's like his main wait to tell them that I didn't have a ghostwriter that's like his main thing like she wrote herself though didn't have a ghostwriter or anything I

didn't know that yeah that's amazing Frankie thank you you're such a good writer thanks sorry carry on so like and I hear him telling people all the time and that's nice because you know he's proud of me in the Saturdays and this that the other but to know that he's proud of that because that's quite a big part chunk of our life in there is nice and reassuring for me your third failure we finally got onto it is your failure to live in the moment yeah awful at it I know oh god I so relate does anyone know does anyone genuinely live in the moment? I feel like maybe Buddhist monks in the Himalayas,

but they're the only people. I've seen those and I'm not even convinced. Have you been there? Yeah, I checked the Himalayas in October and we went into, what are they? Monastery. Yes. And they were doing the chanting and everything.

We got to sit and watch it. Some of them didn't look like they were living in the moment I've got to be honest so how does your failure to live in the moment express itself I'm always worrying about the past so I still feel guilt for every bad thing I've ever done in my life no matter how much therapy I've had I still feel guilty about any past relationship in my love life or friendship, whatever. And then in the future, I'm still worrying about what my next job is going to be, what is going to happen with the kids or have I made the right decision of their school or should we live in another country? So many things.

It can go so varied. And I just think, God, what if you actually just enjoyed all the things that you've managed to do and that you have now? Wouldn't that be lovely? But then that's another worry, isn't it? you actually just enjoyed all the things that you've managed to do and that you have now wouldn't that be lovely but then that's another worry isn't it why am I not enjoying the things yes but that is it's like I a thing with my illness is I'm always waiting for that next thing to make me happier and I know that that's not how it works but it doesn't stop me from still thinking that way so do you have strategies for dealing with it and for living with not only your illness but this incapacity to be in the moment not really no just get on with it you know what I try my manager thinks it's hilarious she's great she

really encouraged me to write the book and like a few months or a few weeks off of like my deadline for the book I was already like the editor mentioned at some point that maybe there'd be a second book but I don't even know what I'd write about in the second book and unless I had another breakdown but I don't really want to have one and I went into this hole and she was just like you have just written your first book what is wrong with you stop worrying about the next thing and that is just the story of my life so you don't meditate like those buddhist monks so you don't there's there's no mindfulness practice mindfulness for me is just a big no-no like it just conjures up too much thought and i know that's the opposite of what it's supposed to do but I just can't do it so for me it is more about I do try and work out which I hate saying because one of my biggest pet

hates is everyone talks about mental health oh you need to go to the gym you need to go for runs and that is all well and good and it is true but when you're at the bottom of that black hole, someone telling you to go and have a run is just so unhelpful and so counterproductive that I hate saying it. Yeah. And you have to get to a certain point before you can do that. You're also refreshingly honest about how you hate exercise.

Like you do it because you know it's good for you. I hate it. I went to the gym at half four yesterday and it felt like the longest hour of my life. I just hate it. And I've had those times where I've gone through stages where I'm like I'm gonna go every day and then I will enjoy it and it just doesn't work like that so jealous of those people yeah yeah but I love that you're being open obviously I just used the book title again there. Being open about that, because again, there's so much pressure for the rest of us following people on Instagram who are like doing a core workout with a Swiss ball at home.

And then, yeah. And I know that there's a whole chapter in the book devoted to social media and you are a regular presence on Instagram. How do you handle all of that? I just try to be as honest as possible I put a lot of pressure on myself for a while about a year or so ago to post every day and this that the other and now I'm just like if I've not got anything to say then I'm just not gonna say it so now I just don't post unless I've got something I want to post or something I want to say so I do go days without putting something up and I find I probably do more stories than posts because they're just more instant and there's less pressure yeah

there is less pressure whereas like I don't know I have this real thing of like if it's going on the grid it has to be something proper I don't know it's just this hierarchy of posts now and what about who you follow are you careful do you curate your own feed so that you're not following people who what for whatever reason might make you feel bad yeah well I now have this whole thing of like I think the mute button it was like the joy of Instagram it's just amazing but now I have loads of people that I follow but don't actually follow so I'm like I probably could cut mine in half but I'm like oh I don't feel like I can unfollow them so I just mute them and that's been great for me and I did go through a stage where I followed loads of skinny fit people and would just make myself feel rubbish that I didn't look like them

so I don't follow those people anymore so I tend to mainly follow people that I know or I don't know I suppose people I just find interesting or a bit inspiring or some people that I'm just nosy about if I'm honest like Jennifer Aniston like I want her to get back with Brad Pitt so badly but then I feel conflicted as to why I want her to get back with Brad Pitt so badly but then I feel conflicted as to why I want them to get back together because no one knows why everybody wants it I put it on my Instagram today and I it's probably the most replies I've had for so long yeah and everyone just saying yes like we just want this to happen why just the way so we're talking the day after those photos that the Screen Actors Guild Award out where brad brad cyclone brad i'll make brad they'd like congratulated each other on each

winning an award and then she walks away and he grabs her he grabs her he grabs her hand and she's got like one finger still like under his jacket it's just so beautiful i know and oh it's just like something out of a film it would be a bit like I suppose if like Justin and Brittany got back together yeah less complex is okay again yeah less complex I suppose but yeah I don't know why I got onto that but Brad and Jen you were talking about them on Instagram so you like following Jennifer Aniston on Instagram as do I because um she is humorous and quite relatively honest yeah she's just like oh I've been told I've got to get on this thing so I'm here so here I am so yeah I suppose I do still have this love-hate relationship with social media because I do find

myself aimlessly scrolling through it sometimes and I don't even want to be looking at it it's a bit like diet coke I've got a bit of an addiction to diet coke and I love it and I drink but I've got to the point now when I'm drinking it I'm not even enjoying it so I'm like I need to stop drinking it so I've cut back and that's a bit like Instagram I love that that's such a good comparison is it yeah it's brilliant and then what drink would twitter be twitter would be like a real like a very strong real ale yeah like a special brew or something yeah i don't really i just kind of link my instagram through twitter now and then my friend's kid was teaching me about tiktok the other day we were in dubai she was telling me and i thought oh i'm still

down with the kids I hear it's like dance routines I'll be able to do that she showed me one of the dance routines I was like I'm never gonna remember that I'm not doing it with you and then I went into the toilet and there was these two young girls with their phone propped against the vanity unit in the toilets doing this dance routine did not bat an eyelid that I walked in and And if that was me, even now at this age, I would have been so embarrassed. And I was just like, it's just a whole new world. Like, they just, she was sat at dinner, their daughter, just doing the dance routine while she was eating her dinner, like practicing it. And I was like, it's just so mad. You know, you just think, where are we going to go from Instagram? You never can imagine what it's going to be and apparently now this is the next thing you've been so beautifully honest during

this interview and I can't thank you enough one of the things that you mentioned in open is that you were fortunate enough that you had money and you were able to get private health care but I think what is most important about the way that you talk is that depression can affect anyone, no matter how much money they have, how much privilege they have, what background they come from. And I think that that's a very crucial thing to get across. But I wonder if you could just leave others with a piece of advice if they don't have the money to seek private health care what would you say might be a good thing to do I mean I know that you are an ambassador for mind the mental health charity I think you just have to try and use any resources that are available

to you as possible you know I know everyone knows with the NHS it's amazing but people are waiting too long to see therapists and what have you but we do have things like mind where you can ring and talk to people they can send you into the right direction I can't remember what it's called but I met a girl the other day and there's a line that you can ring just to talk to people um shout the I'm not sure maybe there is a text line that you can text and we will put all these details in the show notes and the details are also in your book actually you've got a whole section of contact details so I thought that was amazing because again it is just about talking to someone and I think if you can't access medical help fast enough you just need to open up to one person whether that's a friend a family member even if it does end up being

someone online just to have someone that knows where you're at and where your head's at is I think the best place to be and that's why I am honest about the fact that I did go privately and I don't want to ignore that fact and act like that's not how it happened for me. Frankie Bridge, you're an inspiration. Do you believe that I like you? I think so. No, yes.

And your cat, which I definitely do. And so does he. Thank you so, so much for coming on How to Fail.