How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S8, Ep1 How to Fail: Jessie Ware

Episode Date: June 3, 2020

*This episode was recorded before recent tragic events in America. There are links to useful Black Lives Matter resources and ways to help below*WE'RE BAAAAAACCCCKKKK just like Backstreet, The Mack, and the toilet roll that's now in stock again in Sainsbury's. And what a guest I have for you! It is the one, the only, Jessie Ware. Not only is she one of my favourite singer-songwriters (four Brit nominations to her name, three top-ten albums and a whopping 120 million streams on Spotify for one of her most famous songs, Say You Love Me...JUST SAYIN) but she's also one of my favourite podcasters, co-hosting the brilliant Table Manners with her mother, Lennie and interviewing an array of astonishing talent over a home-cooked dinner. Their eponymous cookbook is a Sunday Times bestseller. Part of what makes Table Manners so special is Jessie's down-to-earth manner, whip-smart sense of humour and her ability to shortcut to the real stuff (it's also the affectionate bickering with Lennie, who says that they 'put the fun into dysfunctional'). All of these qualities also make her a wonderful interviewee. She joins me to talk about her failure to tidy up, her failure to be a journalist and her failure to live in the present. Along the way, we discuss imposter syndrome, body image, accidental success, life, love and almost everything in between. Basically all you need to know is that I loved her before we recorded this episode, but now I love her even more.*I've written a new book! Failosophy: A Handbook For When Things Go Wrong is out in October. It's a practical, inspirational and reassuring guide to the seven principles of failure I've developed since doing this podcast. Packed full of contributions from loads of former guests, as well as listener stories, it is also beautifully hand-illustrated by Paul Blow and I would love it if you wanted to pre-order a signed copy here.*Jessie Ware's latest album, What's Your Pleasure, is out on 19th June and available to preorder here.*Many of you will have been as appalled as we are by the recent tragic news from America and the homicide of George Floyd. If you'd like to help there is a link to Black Lives Matter resources (including petitions to sign and places to donate) here. Belly Mujinga was a railway worker at London's Victoria station who was spat at by an assailant and who later died of Covid-19. You can donate to her family here. *How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted by Elizabeth Day, produced by Naomi Mantin and Chris Sharp. We love hearing from you! To contact us, email [e-mail]* Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayJessie Ware @jessieware     Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by card. Other conditions apply. This episode was recorded remotely in lockdown. It was also recorded before the tragic recent events in America. We stand firm with all victims of racism across the globe. And in particular, we think of the families of George Floyd in the US and Belly Majinga in the UK. To this end, there are links in the show notes to relevant petitions and places to donate. Black lives matter. Thank you. Health, wellness and maintenance of mind are so important right now. Personally, doing a bit of

yoga every Saturday morning has made me feel more chilled than I do the rest of the week. But I found that what you wear can really make a difference to getting you into that headspace. And the brand that always gets me there is Sweaty Betty. I first discovered them at university when a friend of mine actually called me Sweaty Betty, when I work out I do actually sweat, I don't glow and I fell in love with the brand because it is so long-lasting and durable. The quality of their product makes me feel empowered and strong and the brand itself is all about love of movement but it doesn't take itself too seriously and Sweaty Betty is a big believer in balance which is something we all need in current times. I would love for you to try Sweaty Betty and to have the same experience as me

so for a limited time you can use the code HOWTOFAIL or one word for 15% off. I highly recommend their power leggings which when I'm allowed out of the house is what I wear for spinning because they are so hard working and they give you a second skin feeling and a high stretch and they come in dozens of different prints and colourways so thank you so so much to Sweaty Betty for sponsoring this podcast and for making such great clothes Hello and welcome to season eight of How to Fail with Elizabeth Day. Yes, we're back with eight new fabulous guests for your delectation over the coming weeks. And if you need even more failure content, I wanted to let you know that I've written a new book called Failosophy. See what I did there? It is a practical, comforting, and hopefully inspirational handbook for when things go wrong,

and it encompasses the seven principles of failure I've developed since doing the podcast. It's full of insights and quotes from brilliant former guests, including Malcolm Gladwell, Phoebe Waller-Bridge, Lem Sisay, Al-Adabottul, Nigel Slater, Mo Gowdat, Dame Kelly Holmes, Andrew Scott, and many, many more. And it's also full of what I've learned from the stories you lovely lot have been kind enough to share with me since we launched in July 2018. Philosophy, a handbook for when things go wrong, is published by Forth Estate in October, but it is available now to pre-order from waterstones.com or wherever you buy your books.

As ever, your support means the world to me and enables me to carry on doing what I do forevermore until the very end of time itself, or at least into season nine. And now, on with the show, I've got an amazing guest. It was a joy writing this introduction because I got to do it while listening to the music of one of my favourite artists, today's guest, the singer-songwriter Jessie Ware. I'm not the only one who's obsessed with her haunting vocals and soulful lyrics. With four Brit nominations to her name, three top 10 albums and a whopping 120 million streams on Spotify for one of her most famous songs, Say You Love Me, Ware could quite reasonably have been contented with just the one dazzlingly successful career. But in 2017, she and her

mother Lenny launched the Table Manners podcast, inviting celebrities round to theirs for a chat over a cosy dinner, and it too became a hit. Guests have included everyone from Ed Sheeran and Nicole Scherzinger to London Mayor Sadiq Khan. The Table Manners cookbook was published earlier this year and became an instant Sunday Times bestseller. And yet both Jessie Ware's careers seem to have happened somewhat by accident. Singing was only ever a hobby until Ware's school friend, Jack Pignate, asked her to provide backing vocals for his tour. Before that, she had studied English at Sussex University and had ambitions to be a journalist. The podcast, too, came about at the suggestion of a friend when Ware found herself burnt out by the music industry.

She had no maternity leave after the birth of her first child and went back on tour within months. Now a mother of two, she is just about to release her fourth highly anticipated album, What's Your Pleasure? She recently said that, I feel like these last few years I've had to do some exploration to figure out what I wanted to write about musically again and to learn new things about myself. Maybe it's time to say goodbye to the melancholy Jessie. Melancholy Jessie Ware, welcome to How to Fail. Oh my God, you just made me feel really pretty special. You are, when are they just going to let you do Desert you do desert island discs oh you're to say come on this is ridiculous you're amazing oh you're amazing and it was so lovely to write that introduction because I wasn't even lying like I love love love your music and it's provided the soundtrack to some of the most meaningful episodes of my life and actually it's the kind of music

that I listen to so much that I then need to take a break from it for a while. And then when I go back to it... Are we on a break at the moment or not? No, no, not at all. I absolutely love Spotlight, the new single. It's absolutely phenomenal. But when I go back to listen to it, it just takes me back to the moment that I was in.

And it's only very special music that can do that. But I'm super interested in the idea of melancholy Jessie. So you don't strike me in person, you're not melancholy, but your music does have that quality or has done anyway. I know. I think that it started, well, from a love of kind of melancholy music and, you know, not that I think you necessarily need to call Sade or Billie Holiday melancholy, but there's a yearning in both their voices and they

were kind of my ultimates. But yeah, I think actually it probably was something to do with fear and the melancholy, it was much easier to hide underneath quietness and that provided a bit more of a mystique perhaps. And this wasn't calculated. This implies that it was calculated. It was completely out of being feeling probably like I had imposter syndrome and being like a bit like hi I'm not here don't mind me like just hearing that introduction that you just did the fact that it's always my mates telling me what to do and me kind of being like oh I don't know they basically just have to push me off the cliff or whatever to do it otherwise yeah it's funny that I've never really thought about that. Do you think it's because

you never had enough self-confidence in yourself at the things that you were good at I mean do you feel good at stuff easily? I'm starting to feel good at stuff but I think I've always been incredibly socially confident so that's why it never really made sense for people to be like you make really quite miserable music but like you're really quite happy and you know I'm so content you know I'm a happy person but yeah I think I all of a sudden in the last couple of years feel confident I don't know if that's an age thing I don't know if that's a having the podcast as this new crutch as something to be like I don't I think I've always felt like music is such a ridiculous job to be in

because it just feels so magical and unbelievable. And so the reason that I didn't push it when I was younger was because I was looking at people like J-Lo on MTV base and I was looking at All Saints or I was looking at, you know, and it just felt completely, it didn't seem like it was ever going to be an option.

So it's always felt like it could easily be taken away from me. And so I always needed to accept that that could never always be the whole thing. So now that I have the podcast, that's been such a success, I think it's actually really given me confidence in my other job, which actually is my first job. I don't know. I'm getting ready for this to be a fucking therapy session. I'm ready. I'm ready. Excellent. Good. Okay, let me dive on in. No, but I totally know what you mean about the podcast, because that's entirely been my experience. And I've written four novels, and the first two definitely were very melancholy. And I always remember my mother saying, well, why are they so dark? Because you're actually quite funny in real life, sometimes even intentionally. And I think I so relate to what you're saying, because the podcast is me, authentically me. And I know that it's

authentically you and your mom, having had the joy of meeting you both. And when something like that becomes successful it does give you confidence that you hadn't had before potentially that you're okay as a person not pretending to be anything else yeah I think you're right also it's provided and I've said this before but it's provided like the best kind of PR for me and my music possible you know there was times where I was always the underdog and I quite liked that I was kind of like that you know I wasn't in the the lists for the breaking artists for whatever and I would you know look I've done really well and I'm completely proud of all my achievements but there's always

been this thing that people have always said to me along my career she's so underrated which actually I feel I much prefer that to being overrated so that's very nice but it's always this thing of everyone kind of feeling like I'm still undiscovered and whatever and I think with the podcast lots of people have come to it as just podcast listeners rather than being a Jessie Ware music fan and it's provided the best kind of form of PR accidentally showing my personality that perhaps like my music wasn't able to do because it doesn't show the full picture and also it's just such a pleasure isn't it doing a podcast you have these wonderful conversations I do kind of feel like we have the funnest and luckiest job in the world it's a conversation and that's kind of what I've always yearned for and

that was kind of my initial idea to be for my first job as being a journalist that was kind of where I wanted to be because I wanted to have these big conversations but kind of gone a weird way around it to get to this. We will get on to your failures in a minute but I know that so many people listening will be huge fans as I am of Table Manners so I just want to ask you to rehash the same old stories that you've been asked a million times about what it's like doing a podcast with your mum who has become this wildly successful star who is now recognised by her voice when she orders drinks at bars. It's so funny. It's unique. It's amazing. Weirdly, something feels like it was always meant to be. Like my mum is such a star. You know,

she's a social worker. That her job and she's been an incredible mother to my brother and sister and I and there has always been this Lenny that people have known and my friends are her friends family and she is a bit of a star and kind of social work didn't seem glamorous enough for my mother in some ways even though it's such an incredible important job so the fact that I've kind of accidentally made my mum this gay icon uh this kind of intergenerational mother I don't know whatever she's a force and now people all over know this and it has been it's you know what I'm not gonna lie though it's tested us more than I think we've ever really been tested my mum and I

have always just been we've kind of always tested. My mum and I have always just been, we've kind of always just been incredibly close. And then working with your mother really changes things. You know, I guess I've worked as a singer, and it's been a solo artist. It's so self indulgent. It's all about me. And then you, you're in a partnership with somebody, and she is table manners, just as much as me, if not maybe more so, you know. So that having to kind of be in a marriage with your mother in a kind of business sense feels slightly strange. But we're kind of learning as we go along. But it's amazing when I think back and the romantic in me has all these incredibly funny audio memories now, audible memories with my mum where we do laugh a lot. She drives me bloody crazy too, but I adore her. Well, you famously say, both of you, that you put the fun into dysfunctional,

which I think just nails it as a description. But I can completely understand how stressful it must be, the two of you working together, particularly given that until relatively recently, you were also living together yeah she's now regretting ever saying anything about me not tidying my room because now she's missing me like crazy I don't think she's missing me I think she's missing her grandchildren but yeah it kind of you know corona basically broke up the the family because my brother is an anaesthetist so he is on the front line he was living at home which is still slightly weird seeing as he's I think he's like 34 now so he was I don't that's doctors and whatever he was living with my mum that was too much of a risk we were living with my mum we felt like too

much risk so yeah she's gone from having this full noisy house messy because of me to having no one there and I think she's really struggling with that I feel very lucky that we we're getting to carry on the podcast remotely just because not that I think it's a charitable thing to do for my mother I just think it's some form of weird normality the podcast has become what about Dr Alex who is famous by association because he's often mentioned on the podcast and also bakes very well and yes made food how is he finding it working on the front line because when you're an anaesthetist that's that's really the toughest of the tough yeah I think he scares my mum a lot with my mum's petrified of going out of the house I mean stay at home she I think she's left the house once and so she has lots of fear probably from what he's

basically saying mum if you get this you will not be able to get a bed in ICU if it goes down that road so it was just put the fear of God in my mum my mum you know opens the door to me when I drop food to her or she's got like this full-blown like mask that I haven't even it's kind of the most turbo form of a face mask I've ever seen but and she has about three of them like mask that I haven't even it's kind of the most turbo form of a face mask I've ever seen but and she has about three of them she changes up I don't know for how anxious she is I don't know but yeah he's finding it hard but I think perhaps they're finding their rhythm maybe slightly in there and I think it's just quite terrifying that they don't understand this virus yet so and he's really seeing people at the worst

bit of it where I guess they're either gonna live or die I mean forgive me if I'm saying the wrong stats but I think it's like 50% of people that get end up in ICU don't make it so yeah I think there's a lot to deal with and also kind of him having to deal with that on his own as well I think it must be incredibly lonely you know I don't think he wants to give us all the info. Also, he's not allowed to. But like, yeah, I wonder what it's like when he returns back from a really hard day and can't just vent or talk or escape that much. So he's asked my brother-in-law for a Nintendo Switch to really turn off. I think like, and that's so not my brother to play computer games. But like, he's at that point where he's just like, I need to escape a different reality oh Dr Alex what I know totally with you what a hero and I just given that we're

talking about siblings I do want to give a shout out to your older sister Hannah who is a and an actress in LA and yeah I mean she hasn't made this happen but I also know that she'd be jealous if I didn't say how much I loved her oh you you know her well yeah and I guess inadvertently she did kind of connect us through her just waxing lyrical about you and I was already listening to your podcast which I love and so it was just I feel like you are an absolute yin to my sister's yang because you're so calming and I'm going to stop there you're basically the opposite of myself you're wonderful and my sister's yang because you're so calming and I'm going to stop there you're basically the opposite of myself you're wonderful and my sister's pretty great too but yeah no there's a wonderful balance of you and my sister together that I'd love to see oh that's so lovely now when I was

researching you for this interview I was wondering whether there were any other singers in your family and I stumbled across your grandfather a Russian Jewish immigrant who lived in Northern Ireland and when he sang in synagogue, he made everyone cry. Yes. What a beautiful thing. What was his name? Where did he come from? His name was Morley. Well, I think his name actually was Alfred, but I don't know how he ended up as Morley. And yes, his, his mum and dad were very Jewish, like very practicing Jewish, very Orthodox. And so he'd sing in the synagogues.

But I think he really wanted to be an opera singer from what I gather. And it just didn't seem like that was ever an option. He'd have to go and get a proper job. And I remember his speaking voice. I remember listening to him telling stories. And he had a really bad chest. So he used to talk about the little man inside him, which was like his chest rattling.

And you'd put your head on his chest when he'd be reading a story, and you'd just about the little man inside him which was like his chest rattling like he taught I mean and you put your head on his chest when he'd be like reading a story and you just remember the little man rattling he had an amazingly strong Irish accent and I never really heard him sing but my mum said yeah he was an amazing singer we have Riz Ahmed on the podcast and I was he was asking whether I had any singers in our family and I mentioned my grandfather and he was like this is amazing he's passed the baton on to you and this is very symbolic and I was like god I've never really thought about it like that but yeah yes how did he end up in Northern Ireland I don't know whether he was born in Russia but the old pogroms that's when they got like booted out I need to make sure this is right I need to check this whether actually I'm going to text my mum now mum was normal born in she'll be like she'll reply in one second by the way she can always call and then be on the podcast herself oh my god she's got the equipment she

would be well up for that she'll text me back in a minute okay we can go back to that thank you it's quite an esoteric question but I'm interested because my family also come from Northern Ireland but uh emigrates maybe we're related Jessie um my god maybe cool but how important because I know that it's something you talk about on the podcast and it's obviously massively influenced the role of food in your life how important is the Jewish faith to you? It's become a badge of honour which I feel like potentially I am so proud of being Jewish for like the cultural association with it for the tradition I never had a bat mitzvah and I feel like I may do a bat mitzvah in my older years because for me it's about an identity a cultural identity and it's always been something I've been incredibly proud of it's made me feel

slightly exotic in South London being a Jew was quite exotic so yeah it's been something I've been incredibly proud of and it is important to me and I think it's important for me to be able to pass it down like we did a virtual Seder night with my mum and my other family and we didn't actually do the plates or anything and I know some of my friends who are proper good Jews they did like the full shebang and I just feel like it's been so important to me and so important with like food and family and and tradition that I do feel like I don't want it to be lost through me I'm not married to a Jewish man I gained a lot from learning a lot through my grandparents and my family and my mum and I don't want that to be

lost I want it to carry on through my family and yeah it's incredibly important to me but I'm kind of a bit of a bad Jew I feel that should have been one of my failures but that's one of the most Jewish ways of being Jewish is to feel self-loathing about how bad you are at it yeah but let's move on to your actual failures and i'm going to reverse the order i hope that's annoying but because i know that's fine i'm just slightly worried that my failures are really shit they're not at all they are and it doesn't mean that i don't think i'm shit at lots of things by the way i just want everyone to know this that like I think I'm quite shit at quite a lot of things but it was just like do we go full therapy or do we go a little half and half I don't know it was very hard to pick these actually a friend of mine Joe Dempsey who's an actor who loved he

he walked past my house the other day I don't know if that's allowed to be done or not but anyway we had like a three meter conversation quickly and he was saying I'm saying I'm doing Elizabeth Day's podcast and he was like yeah he was like it's proper like a therapy session isn't it and I was like oh god yeah I know and I don't think I sound anyway we we had a right old stress about it it was quite funny no you're so sweet I went through my options with him they they're great and I appreciate the thought that's gone into them and don't worry I'll make them therapy thanks babe let's do this let Let's dig deep. But I wanted to start with the last one that you sent me because you mentioned earlier on that feeling of imposter syndrome.

Yeah. And that idea of kind of accidental careers. And your first failure is your failure to be a journalist. Yes. So coincidentally, I've also failed to be a multi-award winning pop star. So such similarities. But tell me why you wanted to be a journalist in the first place. My dad's a journalist. He's an investigative journalist. And I always thought it seemed quite glamorous, his job, and important.

And the things that he was tackling felt they were important. And I was always in bed too early to watch his programs. But I'd hear that sound of Panorama, the music starting, and I'd know like my mum and dad were watching his program. And he did a program called Rough Justice, which was about trying to clear for who he thought were innocent people's names in jail who'd gone to jail, which I feel like would be a perfect Netflix show now,

but it was almost ahead of it. It was kind of ahead of the game, but it's funny. It's funny. It was really interesting ahead of the game. But it's funny. It's funny. It was really interesting and trying to clear people's names. But yeah, you know, he kind of was away from the beginning part of my sister's life because he was trying to doorstep Mengele. So like, I mean, yeah, there was something that was alluring about that. And I was never as political or kind of swatted up on current affairs as my father. So investigative journalism was never going to really suit me. So for me, conversation and storytelling has always been so important.

And my friends have always said that I've been able to extract information from people quite easily and not manipulating anybody, just people like to tell me their secrets. And I love hearing people's stories. So for me, journalism was a way of a conversation and telling someone's story. So I wanted to go into documentary making and I left uni with an English degree that kind of made me fall out of love with reading, which was such a shame.

I used to read so much and then you have to read like eight books a week and it kind of puts you right off. And I have to say, I wasn't a mad fan of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. Yeah, and things like that. I had a funny old time time at uni kind of didn't love myself that much at that time but was like right oh I know why I'm doing this I've always known why I'm doing this I'm going to be a journalist my best friend Sarah I was singing in some like funk band to get 50 quid

at the weekends as a backing singer and she was like you need to be a singer I don't know why you're not she got really angry with me and I was like no no I know my path my path I'm very straightforward it's like simple I want to be a journalist that's what I want to be I've always wanted to be it I want to make documentaries and she was just very irritated with me that I wasn't taking singing more seriously and I went and did a journalism diploma what's they call it that thing that you do and you learn shorthand and law and I did it at Lambeth College and loved my teacher but Glastonbury was the weekend before my shorthand exam I went to Glastonbury because my best mate Jack was playing on the other stage and gave me a ticket and I was I was going to watch and I failed my shorthand exam I think I failed

two of the exams in journalism and that's the thing that was me I work hard enough but I've never pushed myself beyond I'll do the bare minimum and kind of trust it up I'm quite good at doing that I was always good at that like when I have my white period in my art a level because it was much like Picasso's blue period and I just put white on white and I managed to get an a star and it was just like I get away with things so I've kind of always had that terrible attitude my mum's always just been like you should be like your sister works so hard and you're just you're a dosser she'd say I'm a dosser you're going to scum thought polytechnic that's where you're going and there's nothing wrong with scum thought poly I'm sure but that's kind of she was like you don't you need to work harder but um I just kind of

always got by so yeah I failed the journalism exam but I kind of would find was like, you don't, you need to work harder. But I just kind of always got by. So yeah, I failed the journalism exam, but I kind of would find a way to get a job. So I knew potentially a good option was that the Jewish Chronicle would potentially take me to get a job. So I kind of rung them up and had a meeting and got a job. And I don't really remember what my job was. It was kind of like an online something or other. And they were so sweet and they were so sweet

and they were so lovely but they gave me my first job as journalism and then I was like I wanted to because my dad always thought it was really important to get writing and work in a newspaper and so you could write and really hone your skills but I kind of always knew that I wanted to not write I'd never felt comfortable writing so then it's become completely bizarre but now I I'm a singer that writes my songs and that was a struggle for a while because I and a best-selling author oh yes that too that was quite fun I enjoyed that I really enjoyed that I find songwriting far more scary than writing that book that was a real pleasure but yeah I just I kind of I failed at carrying on with the writing with journalism and then I went and worked for a production company as an assistant to try and work my way up to work and get into production.

And then Crossroads happened, Sliding Doors, whatever. And Jack asked me to be his backing singer. And I was kind of a bit miffed with all the TV industry and world and thought, yes, I'm just going to try this and I'll go do law. So I kind of didn't fully, fully commit to journalism because there was something slightly more alluring that was an offer. And also because I kind of thought that was, I was young, I was single, I was going to go and have an experience of life on the road. I don't know.

And then it just kind of happened to be my job. It turned into a job. of life on the road I don't know and then it just kind of happened to be my job it turned into a job but yet again it was a friend called Tit who pushed me into my first session with a guy called Subtract and Sampha who lots of people know and I was just a rabbit in the headlights like I was just I was petrified but it had to take my friend to kind of hold my hand to do it I've got very nice friends I've realized that kind of really pushed me to do what I do. And when you were in that session and singing professionally for the first time, how did it feel? Did it feel like, oh, this is something I really should be doing? No, the song was called Nervous because I was so nervous.

And it says, don't want you to see that I'm nervous. I was nervous. Subtract's an amazing producer and he was so gifted at all his tools. He could play five different instruments and then Sampha rocks up and kind of just is an incredibly shy person, but then goes in front of the mic and just spits like lyrics and melodies that they just flow from him.

And I was like, oh my, this is real artistry. And there's me being like, don't want you to see that I'm nervous. I'm I'm nervous yeah I was petrified I was petrified because I was I'd come from being a backing singer on tour with my best mates and that I felt really comfortable with because I wasn't the main center of attention I was watching my friend be so brilliant and skilled on stage and I was singing and it was lovely and there was less pressure but the once you put yourself out there as a singer I don't know it felt like

a ludicrous thing to say I'm a singer and I went to school with Florence Welch who was always a singer like she was always a singer you'd see her like at squat parties you couldn't get the mic off her she was so confident and brilliant and she was a star as soon as you saw

her with a mic at 15 years old, you were like, this girl has so much self-belief and it was inspiring, but also kind of terrifying. So I kind of look at people like that and I'd be like, well, I'm completely wrong for this. So it took me a long time to work out why I was kind of given this opportunity really. I want to come back to the journalism in a bit, but you do have an extraordinary voice and it's so good and so unique have you ever been trained or was it just something you always had I had like singing lessons throughout school where I'd sing like jazz standards that was my favorite I just loved Gershwin and Porter and and was obsessed with Billie Holiday and Sarah Vaughan and Ella Fitzgerald

and Frank Sinatra. I just wanted to sing those songs. And I was mad about R&B too. So, you know, it was like Lauryn Hill and Jennifer Lopez's first record and Destiny's Child and Fugees. I was listening to all that and I was soaking up and obsessing about it.

But I never thought that I'd be a pop star. And then you see somebody like Amy Winehouse come on the scene and you're like, oh, this girl's Jewish. she's singing like a jazz singer and she's like got like hip-hop breaks in there and I was like she's the dream she's incredible yeah she was incredibly inspiring for me. Did you ever meet her? No I used to borrow her studio because at the time I was with a management company that managed her and so I'd use her studio from time to time when she wasn't using it I don't know if she was aware that I was using it or not really but you kind of felt this presence of Amy Winehouse

you think oh god what has she written in here but yeah just such a shame isn't it she's just such an important iconic voice and yeah I ad her. So you said that you initially wanted to become a journalist because of your dad, who is the legendary investigative journalist, John Ware. But I know that he and your mum split up when you were about 10 and that you didn't speak to him for a while. And so it's interesting to me that you were still inspired to do that rather than rebelling against it yeah it was funny I was thinking about whether like one of my failures should be like about forgiveness because

yeah I didn't speak to my father for years I felt incredibly loyal to my mother I felt like I took on the role of being like the dad in the house and we were all incredibly hurt by him and what he'd done and he you know cheated on my mum like lots of people have that story and there was just the deceit and the way that I felt like I could support my mum even though she didn't want us to not see him she never ever said that I felt like my loyalties lied with her um even though she'd always be saying you should see your father he's your only father he's there he wants to see you and it was my way of like having I guess a sense of control and power over punishing him by not speaking to him you know silent treatment and yeah having a control I regret it now because I actually think the impact

it had on all of us because we almost like became a unit of like my brother and my sister we all kind of we stuck together and none of us were gonna see see him. But I think we were just so hurt. Yeah, I don't know why. The journalism thing, I don't know. Maybe it was a way of having a weird connection with him. I'm not sure. He wasn't around that much when I was younger. And he finds it incredibly hard when I speak about him

because obviously it always seems like in the negative light. And we have a really funny old relationship now. I call him every other day and he sees the kids and I think that's been really great our relationship since my I've had children has really improved and I love him very dearly and so yeah he'll never forgive me for writing the song Sam with Ed Sheeran because there's a line in it which he just is so incredibly hurt about and I didn't want to play it to him because I knew he'd be hurt and then more for me I mean I made a song with Ed Sheeran that was going to get played everywhere and everyone was going to hear it and everyone was going to want to talk about that particular line because it felt very open and honest yeah it's a funny yeah it's a funny thing that because

that song is so beautiful and it's and it is only one line as powerful as it is it's a line about how you know man who's not like your father yeah but given you know that's one line and then on the other end you have a load of actions that have really hurt some people and it's interesting how sensitive it turns out your parents can be I think I think you're right I think also potentially it's just the things that were unsaid and left unsaid. And I can have an acid tongue and I particularly know how to rile him and hurt him. And it's from this place of being an angry, hurt teenager. We started to not speak when I was about, I think I was about 13. It was very destructive and it impacted on my siblings and I in different ways and I'll never forgive

him for that but equally people make mistakes and you know what can you do but yeah I still am so impressed by him and I respect him a lot I respect him a lot with how he goes about his work and his work ethic and I think that's been instilled on me and so I thank him for that and I and I really do love him and I really hope he doesn't fucking listen to this listen you're talking to someone who I hold a grudge like nobody's business you know and I always say I can forgive but I will never forget and that's it that's me yeah I know but I took too long I think to forgive okay and I've done that before. But yeah. Oh, yeah. What is it? An elephant. Does an elephant have the memory? They will say, yes, the memory of an elephant. Yeah, I'm that. I'm an elephant.

So then you you become this music superstar in my eyes anyway. What does that feel like? What does it feel like to to have Prince recommend your music to Nicole Scherzinger to be on score and perform and yeah that's and I feel like this is how much I've been thinking about this Elizabeth like I I didn't know and then maybe this ties into living in the present I don't know uh failure to live in the present which I think is one of my failures yes okay it's the final one I was building up to it oh shit sorry no we can change this but I don't think I appreciated all the really good stuff that happened right at that beginning bit of being a new artist shiny brand new artist that's when people really are interested and somehow I was doing something right accidentally my miserable

face was working and my miserable songs were working and I kind of turned into this rather cool artist which if anybody knows me I'm so uncool and I was getting pitchfork songs of the day. Prince was DJing wildest moments on his live stream. And I was just like, I still was petrified. I still had the imposter syndrome. I still couldn't appreciate it. I was up for Mercury's. I was up for Brit's. And I still was a slightly apologetic,

whether it be on the red carpet, in the studio, to the label. And I'm really annoyed at myself for that because I should have bloody owned it well that's really interesting where let's talk about your failure to live in the present then which is one of the failures you sent me where did that imposter syndrome and that kind of slightly quiet shy lack of confidence come from it's partly I guess that you sort of fell into music, quotation marks there. But did it also come, I mean, I speak to a lot of women who feel like that and not that many men.

So do you think it's also a gender thing? Yes, absolutely. You see it even in the studio. I mean, there's so many more, well, that I'm aware of, female songwriters now that are like gigging songwriters. I mean, initially it was middle-aged men that I was being in the studio with and there's nothing wrong with that, but it's been really exciting to see how the industry is,

has changed. And, you know, I love men and I love working with men and I don't want this to sound like I'm rubbishing them. But I remember being in many a awkward situation in a studio where you're basically on a blind date with somebody you don't know, them but I remember being in many a awkward situation in a studio where you're basically on a blind date with somebody you don't know and you've got to bare your soul and write a banger

you're trying to always the A&R persons in your ear being like just write a hit and you're like oh god how do I write a hit oh god so you have this really awkward day where you're just blind dating somebody and telling them all your secrets to try and for them to try and kind of take that and put it into a song with you. And I always felt rather apologetic. And I think I would always care more about the, maybe I'm saying this wrong, the equilibrium and the atmosphere of the room and the balance, it being more balanced and it being pleasant for everybody rather than being as true to myself as possible. I'd almost prefer to just have a less painful day by saying yes to something. I totally get that. Exactly the same. And I think it's because, I mean, you're younger than I am,

but for a lot of women raised in the 80s, still raised to be kind of pleasant and pliant and nice, like that was society's expectation of you. And I still think that women take a lot of that emotional labor on where it is the one who makes small talk and eases everything over and just you're so right makes a nice atmosphere rather than imposing your own demands it's funny isn't it because then I've stopped doing that now good and now you're right yeah I'm a right fucking madam but it was interesting when I held firm on something with a music situation I held firm and I spoke to a gentleman and he says you're being really hysterical you're being really like emotional you're being really emotional like stopping emotion and I said and he said it he said it probably about six times in the conversation I said I'm actually not being emotional like this

is what I want and this is I believe this and I put forward my case and I said it so calmly and all he could say back to me was you're being really emotional but that's that's just an emotional response I was like actually I'm really not being emotional so it it's funny. It still kind of happens, doesn't it? But I feel more empowered now. And I feel like I don't have that imposter syndrome anymore. And I understand myself. And I think it was almost like going through being a teenager, but in a career and having all those like horrible,

ugly moments and just kind of almost hating yourself a bit. But that happening, doing a career and also being quite like this is not a perfect analogy at all but I hope people can understand it just like the warts and all thing and just kind of the self-discovery but then having that whilst you're also publicly offering music that you're offering music to people and you're offering art or whatever to them and putting yourself out there but you're also kind of not really liking yourself that much and you're still discovering how you want to behave and it was an awkward time for me but I also you know I have loads of fond memories too and but it's yes a funny old thing kind of understanding yourself and try and be the best you can be but also like

yeah like fake it till you make it but also like oh god don't fuck it up whilst like make it feel as credible and honest yeah yeah it's a big old it was a big old head fuck I think yeah fake it till you make it but be real yes exactly um and how much do you think being more in control of what you think and being able to express it to someone is partly as a result of becoming a parent is there any connection I think there is a connection but I also think it's potentially due to my imperfections of trying to okay how am I going to go about this is there's a so being a parent first time around I felt like I needed to prove to myself and to my work that I could do it all. I can be it all. I could be perfect, as perfect as possible.

Working mother, back to work, doesn't matter. I'm there. I'm doing it. I'm still making sure my daughter has her food every day. I'm there for bath time. I do short sessions because that's how I work and I'm doing everything and I'm balancing I'm juggling and I'm doing it great and actually oh my god when I think about it now I was really struggling to pretend that everything was okay and actually try to prove to a rather sexist ageist industry that you can have it all um and I don't think I needed to do that and I regret that and I do have again like fond memories of times where my daughter was able to come on tour with us equally it was incredibly stressful and emotionally exhausting and I just

kind of wish I'd been a bit kinder to myself and maybe lived in the present a bit more and taken that maternity leave but I think I felt like my career wasn't a place where I could take time off. And because I felt like I needed to prove that it wasn't going to change me. It wasn't going to change how I work and my strong work ethic. And I regret that a lot. Weirdly, second time around with my son, I had this added thing of having the podcast. And you know, he was at the dinner table with me and whatever, Naina Cherry doing a podcast, but it felt different. And I felt more in control. And I felt it was a pleasure and it was an easier way to work and be a parent. But yet again,

I'm finding myself in, especially during lockdown, you know, my husband has a very different approach to parenting than me. We agree and we are so united, but he's brilliant at being in the present and he gets incredibly frustrated when I'm on my phone, when I'm doing about 10,000 things at once, wherever I make it bloody. I mean, this is not me trying to sound like I'm a perfect person at all, but of course I wanted to make a wild garlic pesto whilst also okaying the sound thing for the Graham Norton performance that I'm doing and also okaying the setup and also trying to do a half-assed jigsaw puzzle

with my daughter when actually what I should have just bloody done is put the phone away, not done the fucking food, put a waffle in the toaster and sat with my daughter and done the jigsaw properly. You know, and I'm still working that out and I'm not very good at it and I do try and do too many things and I think failure to live in the present happened with me not enjoying

that initial period of being a new artist and having these amazing things happen I was always like fearful of what was going to happen next or that it would be taken away and I should have just enjoyed that and again now being a parent this awful thing that's happened to the world has actually made me have to slow down. And I'm still trying to slow down. But actually, it's kind of been the best thing for me and my family to be able to have an accidental maternity leave, even though I am still working. I don't know. It makes total sense. Yeah.

I didn't answer your question about how being a parent made me more confident. But there you go. You got something. It was a great answer., but there you go. You've got something. It was a great answer. It was. Thank you. No, it was. And I do. I think I have that thing of trying to do multiple things at once and filling up my diary to breaking point.

And for me, it comes from a fear that I'm not always going to have these chances. Yeah. And so I want to make them. Ironically, it's that I want to make the most of the present prevents me from living in the present. I totally agree. And it's that thing of like the fear

that if you say, I think I had to learn how to say no. And I really struggle with that, but it's been the most powerful thing I could ever do and the most fulfilling thing to do. And I don't know about you, but yeah,

I do do a lot. And I do juggle a lot and I think I thrive on that in some ways was it I think it was in the Jess Phillips one that I listened to with you it was about like she likes having lots on she likes it and I do think I kind of come alive when I've got lots on my plate but it's about being able to deal with with each one the right way and but yeah I mean I forgot that to answer your question about the other confidence I think the podcast has given me the best confidence that's the thing that's weirdly it kind of always all come back around to journalism not journalism I don't know if it is

journalism but like just having this other job where I just feel safer and so that thing about being I don't know whether it's for you you know know, you're a novelist, you're a writer, you're a journalist, you're a podcaster. And weirdly, you can wear all these hats now, Elizabeth, but you can also potentially feel less worried about, I'm putting words into your mouth. I do. No, I feel, I do feel that. I feel the biggest lesson, and we spoke about this at the beginning, the biggest lesson to me from the podcast and the book that I wrote that came out of it was that people responded most to me when I was being most honest and vulnerable and like you I'd been sort of scared of doing that for obvious reasons I mean not everyone feels like doing that quite sensibly but that has been something that I feel like oh well that's relief because I don't have to pretend to be anything or anyone.

So that's helped me live much more in the present because I can just be myself. But do you have strategies now that bring you back to the present? Do you have any tactics? Do you meditate? Oh my God, I fucking paid for that headspace. Oh, so did I.

I used it about two fucking times. I got stressed then about meditating. I got stressed about like cooking into the day. Totally. Oh, that fucking reminder. You'd be like, oh, fuck off. I'm fucking stressing out. Fuck off.

I can switch off most when I'm cooking. And it doesn't mean that it's an idyllic, calming atmosphere in the kitchen my husband would say completely the opposite he's like you are so messy it makes me so annoyed but I chopping cooking focusing on something where you can't be on your phone where you can't be having a conversation where potentially you could be listening to music or a podcast that's the way that I slow down but equally my favorite thing is having the kids in the kitchen whilst I'm cooking I can watch them I'm cooking they're doing so everyone's happy I mean this barely

happens because my husband my oh my son will be like tugging at my legs now he's such a greedy bastard he knows when I'm cooking he knows that this means that I'm going to be delivering something soon to him and he's so greedy that he kind of just, this is his way of communicating with me that he's like, yeah, come on, where's the food? But no, that's something that I'm really enjoying during this lockdown, just cooking, enjoying that. But yeah, my phone is my biggest enemy and technology. It's like the worst thing for me and my family. And I could be glued to it all day working I could always find time to fit in another email or another phone call I mean look at the moment it's a weird time where I've got an album coming out in what like six weeks and we're trying to re-imagine the promotion

plan for it and so I'm trying to be as creative as possible and I'm actually really enjoying that conundrum even though I could really do without it but it's interesting but yeah I just I wish I could be better at switching off that didn't involve cooking or it didn't involve an action I wish I just yeah I wish I was my husband he's so good at it he's so much better at just living in the maybe because he doesn't have as many stresses well is he a personal trainer your husband yeah he's a personal trainer because I think that makes a huge difference I think if you're good at exercise yeah then they can lose themselves in that so it's easy for him yeah exactly yeah yeah um have you ever been asked to be on celebrity masterchef you know what I haven't and I probably wouldn't do it because

even though I've got a cookbook again I probably have that imposter thing where everyone be like oh that fucking what's the singer come podcaster come now chef just piss off like so I probably wouldn't do it I'd be the tasting person I'd like to be a mole I want a mole Rajan's job he has a lovely job he goes and eats all the food I want that the guest the guest eater totally that's always the best but when you cook this is my seamless link now Jessie when you cook you don't tidy up very well and your final failure is actually we've had this once before on the podcast and it was Phoebe Waller-Bridge so you're in very good company I'm like I am a creative you are basically yeah you are basically that makes me feel so much better that

she said this yeah so is this just a shit one okay no it's really good your third failure is your failure to tidy up and hers is more specific her failure was to tidy up her bedroom but I think the whole house yeah well I do but you were making a joke there, but I do think there's something about brilliant creative types that need to almost have mess around them. Do you agree? Would your mom agree? I mean, I would say that, yeah. That's what I shout at my husband when he's like, you are a pig.

Please clean up. And he does this thing where he's so annoying when he goes, he does, if I let him cook, he'll be like see clear kitchen clear surfaces and I've just cooked and I'm like oh well whoopee for you I said well you're not trying to do a wild garlic pesto are you um yeah I'm terrible at it I understand my mess yeah and it's chaos for other people but for me it's quite I understand it but we are moving into a house and we're in an Airbnb at the moment because we couldn't get into our house and initially the

Airbnb was quite idyllic because it was quite empty and then I just pile on the shit it just is everywhere my mess is everywhere I always make my own bed like I always make my bed that's one thing that I can't not have a made bed but I'm really good at just bringing like there's piles of things and I understand the piles but nobody else does and they aren't very attractive it's completely chaotic what's it piles of is it piles of clothes or hold on let me just see what I've got around me so I've got piles of sugar paper over there for my kids because obviously we had to get creative in lockdown. I've got piles of drinks.

I've got three drinks. Oh no, four drinks whilst I'm chatting to you because obviously I don't need four drinks, but they're kind of strewn around. I've got wires everywhere. So in my head, I want to be Marie Kondo. I could have, so Sam has like more organization with how he's like, see see I lose my keys every day

and he did a real parent thing to me the other day where he didn't speak he was like I'm just gonna let you find them um I'm not going to talk about this and they were the Airbnb keys and I was like fuck and it turned out my daughter had hidden them so that was great for me but he always puts his keys in the right place I want to be that person so much I want to fold my clothes and then to stay folded I want to be Marie and maybe I just need Marie Kondo to come around to my house if you want to be that why aren't you like is this a lifelong thing that you've just got too much shit to do I don't know I've got too much shit to do and it's like I don't know I aspire to that like I have a uniform of clothes and like my mum's like,

you've got so many fucking clothes, but yet you only wear three pairs of trousers. So why do you have an, I'm like, mum, I'm a pop star. Like we're entitled to have sparkly things that we only wear once. It's almost archive material now. Like, you know, that's like beautiful stuff. And she's just like, you're annoying. I have so much storage that I've built in my new house for said clothes and bags.

I don't need any of it. I give loads away. I give, God, I feel like I have to say that, but I do give loads away and I've tried to organize myself. But like, I have really good intentions and I have really good intentions when I move into this house

and it's going to look beautiful for about a week. And then I'll manage to make, just make it a shithole. But it's not like dirty plates under your bed and stuff it's not oh no no no no no no it's not a cesspit okay um I clean no I don't clean I do washing yeah I'm a Jewish prince I don't clean my husband's much better at cleaning like I do the cooking I leave him as he cleans up I get a better deal out of this I'm the most infuriating person to live with I don't know how he lives with me but somehow he seems to maybe it's just I'm making something nice to eat and then he'll kind of forgive me for us and are your children I mean I know they're really young but

can you see are they tidy or untidy do you think my daughter's a Virgo and so I think she's inherited the organization that my husband's got he's a Virgo too I really believe that she will not be messy my son who knows yet he's just got into scribbling and he nearly scribbled on the Airbnb wall he didn't but like yeah I'm not sure yet but I think my daughter's got my she's going to be I think like my husband my husband thank god and I am going to keep on trying I don't know whether you can just be clinically messy yeah I don't either and is your house looks really organized your house looks like see I want to be you look the bookcases are beautiful it's clean it's white it's beautiful it's calming mine is just gonna have loads of shits I'm like that would look great there and then I never put it up or something I'm a bit annoying I'm a bit like your husband in that I do

I'm Hannah's like that my sister too I just keep everything and it's funny because my partner I think is more like you just the desk strewn with teacups and I understand why they're there and I understand where the the ballpoint pen that I've been I mean sometimes it's funny isn't it it is funny I remember so how do you live with it I have just realized that there are certain battles that are worth fighting and others that I should just be really relaxed about. And he's so amazing in every single other way that it just seems ridiculous for me to be even marginally annoyed by the fact that there's a teabag in the sink. Like, why put it in the sink? The sink is not the bin. You put the teabag in the bin. I've probably got a teabag in the sink the sink is not the bin you put the tea bag in the bin I've probably

got a tea bag in the sink right now probably but I would say it's because I'm housing it there for the compost that we're going to put in the house later oh that's pretty organized to have compost I mean oh my god well no I mean this isn't yeah what star sign are you I'm a Libra so I don't really think that that should really I don't know what that was supposed to be indecisive aren't we yeah indecisive about where to leave my shit I don't know so I leave it everywhere I yeah I'm just an inherently messy person I always happen my brother is like Kathy Bates in Misery he is obsessed with things being in the right place so I don't know have you seen Misery I love Misery I think so when she so when she knows that the is it the penguin or there's little trinkets yeah yeah little trinket

it's moved the wrong way that's my bro like you go into his room and it's like a psychopath's bedroom then he hobbles your feet exactly there's too much I didn't inherit that and yeah maybe it's the creative me that's what I'm going to go with I'm going to say it's the creative me and if it's good enough for Phoebe to have an untidy bedroom then I'm a genius exactly why I am yeah that's what it's all my yeah has your mother texted you back yet oh shit let's see if she hasn't then I'm very of course she has she she takes back a minute after I've left her so I did it at 1 39 she was 140 Belfast his father was Russian and all his grandparents his father escaped the pogroms amazing what an incredible story yeah yeah should go and watch Fiddler on the Roof probably tonight yeah that's I'm massively

using lockdown to catch up with films that I should have watched and never have. I know, I think, yeah, that's something that's been really, actually really lovely about having this weird state of, well, you kind of aren't supposed to do anything. And yes, I am doing lots, but this evening thing where my husband and I sit and we watch something together or we'll read our books and like I haven't had that for years and there's something so pleasure I kind of feel

like it's a Saturday night every night and when we like sit down and we watch something or we'll sit and have like dinners that's what I'm really trying to enjoy about this time that I will it's such a unique time and it's it's's incredibly scary, but this time with the family and yeah, I am trying to be in the present as much as possible and appreciate this and like, and slow down. I think it's been really important and necessary maybe for, I don't think coronavirus is necessary for anybody. Don't get me wrong, but it's interesting how it's kind of affected me and my family and I'm adoring spending as much time with them as possible bloody knackered but yeah I have

one final question for you and you mentioned there the clothes that you get and that you're storing in the new house and actually your style is something that I know lots of people myself included have always admired because as a woman in the public eye, your style is very empowered. Thank you. Yeah, and I just wondered if that was a conscious decision. Yes. I ummed and ahed about whether I should put this as a failure because I didn't want to focus on my body.

Clothes have always been a thing where I never enjoyed it when I was younger because I was always podgy so I was wearing size 16 jeans when I was in like primary school and blessed like my mum would get me like the Minnie Mouse body that wouldn't do up you know when everyone was wearing bodies in the 90s and like it just wouldn't get around my bloody tummy and bum and so I never really enjoyed fashion because it was always just whatever would make me look as slim as possible and so that's really not fun for a young girl but I become a singer and I get to play dress up and have hair and makeup and it was life-changing for me really in the sense that I could choose clothes that would make me feel empowered and I always

wore suits from the beginning and I love that everyone wears suits now I think it's great for me it was something I don't know it just made me feel strong the shoulder pad the the tailoring and I loved it again it's kind of maybe that thing of being the present I look back at pictures of me and I'm like oh my god at that time I thought I was so fat and it was ridiculous I looked at these pictures I was like oh my god I look like slim even like I hate myself for that and I hate so many women have this issue I think too and you look back at these pictures like why was I bloody complaining about bloody but yeah fashion and clothes have been something that has really empowered me and made me really enjoy it.

Because initially, clothes were just a form of just a cover up for me. And it was never fun. And it was actually quite a painful experience. I hated shopping. And like, yeah, I'm very lucky that I have an amazing stylist, Nell Kalonji. And we have like so much fun. And she doesn't push me to wear anything, but like, she just understands me and understands my body and understands like what I want to wear and how I want to feel. And yeah,

I love clothes for that and how they make me feel. I mean, look, every day during this lockdown, I've put leggings on and hoodies, and I need to make slightly more effort for myself. I think it would make me feel much better. I mean, I'm going to have to do something. Look, look at this hair. Today is the first day I'm wearing leggings and it's the first I'm wearing a sweatshirt and it's the first day that it's not like a hoodie I mean that's my evolution is that I've gone from hoodie to like a hoodless sweatshirt so I think it's fine to wear whatever you want and you always look I know you probably don't feel this but you

always look amazing and gorgeous. Thank you. And you directly inspired me to wear Paul Smith suits. And I wore Paul Smith suits. Amazing. I did a How to Fail Live tour last year and it became my thing that I would wear a suit every single date that I did. Did it make you feel amazing? Oh my God. Yes. So amazing.

And I suddenly realized why men have been wearing them for centuries they look amazing they they automatically make you look dressed up but not over the top and there's shit loads of pockets so which is super helpful you're so right it just made me realize that oh we've been sold a lie as women that's my go-to thing and and and I I don't wish I was that person that could always just put on like a gorgeous tea dress and just put it on that's not me my thing that will always be my security blanket is a bloody good shoulder pad a good blazer it makes me feel completely confident and powerful weirdly yeah oh jesse where you have lived up to every single expectation i had and exceeded them which is quite i'm slightly worried i think it's always

the sign of a good podcast for the podcaster when the guest goes fuck what have i said it's great for me no uh i mean how was it for you did it feel like therapy or was it okay i mean i knew it was going to feel a bit like therapy I trust you implicitly I love you and I feel like you are so generous and wonderful with your subjects so I feel like I'm in the bestest of hands and my oh my god these Freudian slips my dad used to say beware of the wolves darling which I think I told you about like he used to say beware of the wolves journalists and you're no wolf I didn't know where that was going no no no no and so you know you can

always be quite guarded and things that's that's what I love about podcasts as well though like and good podcasters such as yourself you are amazing so yeah I am fearful about what I've said but I trust I'm in the bestest of hands. And I love this podcast so much. So yeah, I'm so touched that you've brought me on to talk about being messy. I'm so honoured. Please don't be fearful. You're also such an incredible interviewer

and get amazing stuff out of your guests. But anything that you've said has been so eloquent and insightful. And I know loads of people will relate to it. So I cannot thank you enough. Thank you. And look, just look after yourself and I'll see you on the other side of this bloody lockdown see you there yeah lots of love lots of love

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