How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S8, Ep2 How to Fail: Samantha Irby

Episode Date: June 10, 2020

*This episode was recorded before recent tragic events in America. There are links to useful Black Lives Matter resources and ways to help below*You know when you read someone's work and feel like you'd be friends in real life, and you become basically a little obsessed and Google them to inhale all the online content that is out there about this person and their work and THEN you get to to meet them and despite thinking they couldn't possibly live up to all your overhyped expectation, they actually do? Well, ok, so that's what happened to me with Samantha Irby.Not only is she a brilliant, hilarious and perspicacious essayist (she has published three collections, the latest of which, Wow, No Thank You, entered the New York Times bestseller list at number one) but she's a wonderful, generous and warm human being. Samantha joins me to talk about failure to complete college, her failed relationships, failing at drama class, being her mother's carer, growing up poor, using humour as a defence mechanism and the BRILLIANT theory she has developed of 'Detachment Parenting' which she deploys on her wife's children. Oh, and we talk about The Real Housewives too, because we're both huge fans (in fact, we went on about it for so long that I had to edit some of it out in case we bored everyone else). My other favourite thing about this interview is that producer Naomi nonchalantly informed me that Samantha would be dialling in from Kathmandu, Nepal. It turns out that she had misheard and actually meant Kalamazoo, Michigan.Samantha, I heart you. Please can we be friends for real? CALL ME!*I've written a new book! Failosophy: A Handbook For When Things Go Wrong is out in October. It's a practical, inspirational and reassuring guide to the seven principles of failure I've developed since doing this podcast. Packed full of contributions from loads of former guests, as well as listener stories, it is also beautifully hand-illustrated by Paul Blow and I would love it if you wanted to pre-order a signed copy here.*Samantha Irby's latest book, Wow, No Thank You is out now and available to order here. Her extraordinary essay, My Mother, My Daughter is available to read for free online here.*Many of you will have been as appalled as we are by the recent tragic news from America and the homicide of George Floyd. If you'd like to help there is a link to Black Lives Matter resources (including petitions to sign and places to donate) here. Belly Mujinga was a railway worker at London's Victoria station who was spat at by an assailant and who later died of Covid-19. You can donate to her family here. *How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted by Elizabeth Day, produced by Naomi Mantin and Chris Sharp. We love hearing from you! To contact us, email [e-mail]* Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdaySamantha Irby @wordscienceHow To Fail @howtofailpod   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by card, other conditions apply. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned

from failure. Samantha Irby is the brilliant essayist who gives voice to the unsayable. NPR has called her a side-spitting polemicist for the most awkward situations, and her work is full of wit, acerbic insight, and frank confession. She has published four books, the latest of which, wow, no thank you, entered the New York Times bestseller list at number one. It details her life at 40, her marriage, and moving to a small town in Michigan for her wife after being a city dweller all her life. The collection also includes a deeply hilarious ode to her smartphone and an analysis of the potency of a 1990s mixtape, as well as dealing with the day-to-day struggles of chronic

illness, racist neighbours, heavy periods and maintaining mental health. The book is dedicated to an antidepressant. Irby's life has not been straightforward and although I'm sure she would dispute the label, it becomes clear reading her work that she is an extraordinary person. In one of her most moving, powerful essays, My Mother, My Daughter, published in 2012, Irby details how she became her mother's carer at nine years old after her mother, Grace, had a car accident that accelerated the aggressiveness of her multiple sclerosis. Both her parents died when Irby was a teenager and she dropped out of university. In 2008, she started mining the raw material of her life to begin writing on MySpace. But it was her later blog, Bitches Gotta Eat, which blurred the lines

between diary and essay, that brought her wider attention and eventually a book deal. My writing has been my saving grace, Irby once said. Most bad things I don't write about right away. I've got to get a little perspective and reframe it. But if you can't laugh at it, it eats you up. I can find the humour in anything if you just give me a few days. Samantha Irby, welcome to How to Fail. Thank you for having me. That is maybe the nicest description of me and my work that I have ever heard. So thank you so much. I was listening like, who is she talking about?

Well, it is all completely accurate. And I'm so pleased then that I was able to convey how much respect and admiration I have for your work but also how hilarious it is and that thing about saying the unsayable I want to make it clear that that in no way makes your essays inaccessible in fact it's completely the opposite and I don't know quite how you manage that but is that a tone that you've always just been able to nail I think because I kind of dive headlong into it without thinking or planning that it doesn't feel like taboo or shocking or anything to me until someone reads it and says oh uh can't believe you said that. And then I'm like, which part? So yeah, I've always just been like, let's, you know, let's peel off the bandaid and like,

throw out the filter and talk about whatever. And it doesn't feel as scary to me. Or it doesn't even feel remarkable to me until someone is like, I can never say that. And it doesn't feel as scary to me, or it doesn't even feel remarkable to me until someone is like, I can never say that. And then I'm like, oh, well, I will say it for both of us. How about that? It's interesting because historically women have been taught to feel so much shame for talking about something that is so real and pertinent to a specific female experience. But it sounds to me like you don't feel that shame. So I think I am a person who has been and still is in some ways like deeply guided by shame. Like I feel ashamed all the time.

by shame like I feel ashamed all the time and my way of getting out of it or my way of trying to lessen that is just to be as honest as I possibly can because the hiding of things feels more shameful than admitting to it I don't know Does that make sense? That makes such sense. I think the things that we're ashamed of can feel so burdensome that for me, the act of talking about it is just like, I don't know, taking off a straitjacket or something.

It's just like, well, it's embarrassing, but if I get it out there, then it's out there. And at least I feel embarrassed by it, but it's not weighing me down or holding me back. And you have written about absolutely everything. You've written about living with Crohn's disease and having digestive issues on a date. You've written in the new collection about having what sounds like the most horrific heavy period in a hotel room I mean there are no limits it seems to me and yet your writing in so many ways is

antithetical to the idea of role models but you Samantha Irby it strikes me often held up as a kind of role model or a spokesperson or someone to go to when someone needs a quote on the body positivity movement. And I wonder how you live with that disconnect. I mean, I hear role model and it makes me laugh, right? Because I think like, for who? You know, like, oh God, who, please, who? But the way that it, I mean, the thing that makes me able to accept that is I just think being a role model for a very specific kind of like dirtbag, gross person, then I will accept that title. Like a role model, but for like real disgusting people who like laugh at fart jokes like that I can be a role model for those people but for the greater public I don't know but for a very specific lane of people yes I'll accept it does it get tiring then being asked by well-meaning mainstream journalists to speak for entire intersectional groups of people? No, I mean, I'm always happy when anyone asks me anything. It makes me feel

important and wise. I always am like, this is, you know, everything I say is very specific to my experience. Honestly, I don't know enough to speak really for anyone other than me. I'm always baffled by people who like take up the mantle of other folks because I'm like, it takes so much work to know things about anyone other than yourself, which is why I'm the only person I write about. But yeah, it doesn't feel tiring, although I don't think that I can do it. Maybe there are people like me to whom this applies, but mostly I'm just speaking for me. I realize I'm starting off with some very heavy duty questions and I'm really sorry. No, this is good. I just want to get them all in there. There's so much I need to ask you.

Okay. I love that quote that I ended the introduction on that you said about how your writing has been your saving grace, but most bad things you need to have time to process before you can reframe and it's something that I think a lot about in regards to failure that sometimes a failure can happen to you and it feels soul-crushing and gut-wrenching and unrecoverable from and I always say that it is okay to sit with the grief of that failure for however long it takes and then to come to a point where you can choose to attach meaning to it or not whatever works for you but I think that's super interesting

do you have a kind of series of processes that you go through in reframing like do you recognize the process now and the form it takes in your own mind to reframe something yes well so there's an essay in the new book where I tried to make a new friend, and then an embarrassing thing happened to me. And when that happened, I immediately was mortified. And I was like, oh, I'm never going to recover. I don't know if I can make it. It happened in a restaurant. I don't know if I can make it. It happened in a restaurant. I don't know if I can make it out of this restaurant, let alone have a friendship with this person because I've humiliated myself so badly. So that happened. And by the time I got home, I was like, okay, that was embarrassing.

But yeah, a couple days from now, I'm gonna write write this down and it's gonna be really funny most things I mean I don't have very many these days absolute devastations so the little things the little humiliations the little anxiety situations the turnaround on those is pretty fast but I mean when I wrote about my parents like 10 years had passed or more than 10 years had passed at that point and it felt like I had enough perspective to really get in there I think for for me, it's like, if when something doesn't make me cry anymore, or make me want to cry, or have that pit of my stomach feeling, then I feel like I can write about it. And some things, I mean, it takes years for that feeling to go away. There are some things I don't think about about because I'm like,

nope, still not far enough from that. But as soon as the pit is gone, as soon as I can find the kernel of something funny in whatever situation, then I can start processing it and working it out in my writing. Some things I process and if there's nothing useful for anyone else, I just kind of leave it. I'm like, well, that's a thing I went through. You know, it's character building or whatever. Some things don't get shared because I just think like, who needs that?

Or who's that gonna serve? Who is that gonna serve? But things, if they can make someone laugh or I feel like someone can learn, not learn from them, but can relate to them. I mean, that's what I'm always trying to do is like put things out there that'll either make people laugh or that they'll see themselves in and be like, okay, I'm not the only idiot going through that. Great. Yeah. Aside from the brilliant content of your essays, there are two things that I really love about you. One is your unapologetic use of the caps lock key. You love caps and letters.

Oh my God. I really, I do. I do. So do I. So many people hate it, but it's an incredible tool for those of us who love to shout. Yes, and it's humorous. It's so funny. For some reason, it's so funny to see it. These big unapologetic capital letters in the middle of such as normal text. But the second thing I love about you

is that you are a reality TV fan. And in your acknowledgements, you mentioned Luanne de Lesseps, who for the uninitiated amongst you, if you're listening, is the breakout star really from The Real Housewives of New York, which is the best thing I believe on television. How long have you watched The Real Housewives of New York, Samantha? First of all, I mean, I knew that we were going to get along, but I mean, I might propose to you at the end of this. Oh, my gosh, I'd be delighted. Yes, already. Yes. Glad we took care of that.

The New York Housewives is absolutely the best show on TV I have been watching from season one. You will appreciate this. Your listeners might be like shut up but my friend i just bought do you know what cameo is yes of course so i have a friend who is obsessed with kelly ben simone yeah and she is on cameo And I bought my friend a message from Kelly Kaloran Ben Simone. And I asked Kelly to give her a pep talk. If she still has it, I'll send it to you. It is unhinged. And it's exactly what you think it is.

It's worth, I don't know, 50 bucks or whatever I had to pay for it it's incredible so I've been watching that show from the beginning and Luann's transformation first of all I love a person who is all about manners like I think I have good manners, but I don't, like, know etiquette. And so I appreciate that Luann is, like, the staunch etiquette person. But her transformation from, oh, like, hoity-toity. Yeah. I was trying to think of, like, a nice way to say uppity. But, like, you know, she was, no, she was. She was, was like stuck up

and horrible and now she just is drunk all the time and trying to bang dudes and it's incredible i mean i feel like we have been on a journey with her and she's been there from the beginning. She's incredible. Well, I tried to go see her show, but I could not get tickets. It was sold out. And I was like, Luanne, you deserve it. But this is why I adore you and Roxane Gay, because you are such intelligent women and you make watching The Real Housewives

an intelligent act just by doing it. And I think the thing about Real Housewives of New York that one of the things that i think is so great about it is that it is women of a certain age the youngest woman on that show is like 43 and ramona is now 60 and it tackles stuff that you don't normally you don't see in scripted drama you don't see a woman kind of openly talking about dating through the menopause and it's just so good it is so good and that's a thing people don't bring up enough is that they are 60 and menopausal and having hot flashes and we and we get to see them as sexual we get to see them as fun we get to see them as sexual. We get to see them as fun. We get to see them kind of letting it all hang out in all ways.

It's incredible. I mean, I am not enough of a scholar to write text about the sociological impact of The Real Housewives of New York. But I would commission a real scholar to do it. It really is, like, in this day and age to watch a bunch of 50 and 60 year olds running around town trying to date

is incredible. Thank you for that, Samantha. Peyton, it's happening. We're finally being recognized for being very online. It's about damn time. I mean, it's hard work being this opinionated.

And correct. You're such a Leo. All the time. So if you're looking for a home for your worst opinions, if you're a hater first and a lover of pop culture second, then join me, Hunter Harris,

and me, Peyton Dix, the host of Wondery's newest podcast, Let Me Say This. As beacons of truth and connoisseurs of mess, we are scouring the depths of the internet so you don't have to. We're obviously talking about the biggest gossip and celebrity news. Like, it's not a question of if Drake got his body done, but when. You are so messy for that, but we will be giving you the B-sides. Don't you worry. The deep cuts, the niche, the obscure.

Like that one photo of Nicole Kidman after she finalized her divorce from Tom Cruise. Mother. A mother to many. Follow Let Me Say This on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new episodes on YouTube or listen to Let Me Say This ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Hi, I'm Matt Lewis, historian and host of a new chapter of Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit. Join me and world-leading experts every week

as we explore the incredible real-life history that inspires the locations, the characters, and the storylines of Assassin's Creed. Listen and follow Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, I will now get on to your failures. and thank you for mentioning Cameo because I recently used Cameo for the first time and it's a service where you can go and book like B and C list celebrities to do personalized messages and it was my best friend's 40th birthday in lockdown and I got her a message from Amber from Love is Blind on Netflix. And it went down a storm. How was it?

Oh, it was incredible. I mean, you've seen Love is Blind, haven't you? I think I saw that you wrote about it somewhere. Yes. Yes. That's an incredible gift. Yeah. She was so brilliantly on brand.

I mean, she admitted halfway through the message that she was really drunk. She couldn't like read my name and stuff like that. It was brilliant. Anyway, we digress failures Samantha Irby's failures thank you so much for these three failures the first one I feel like it's quite a tone change now but I feel like the first one I touched on in the introduction which is that you failed to complete college and it sounds like there was a very good

reason for that so tell us what happened. So it's so funny to think about this, like at this age, but for being a, you know, smart person who liked to read books, I did not love school. And I was probably better at testing than I was at doing homework and doing all the things that get you good grades. So by the time like time came to apply for colleges, like all my friends were like, I'm going to Yale and I'm going to Brown and I'm going to all these other fancy schools. And I was like, oh, I have like a 2.7 GPA. I'm going to go to state school. So I went to Northern Illinois for a year and halfway through the year, my dad died. And then I finished the year and came home and my mom died shortly after that and I was like okay I am not going to go back to school I'm like I am from the suburbs I'm from this town called Evanston which is just north of Chicago

it's where Northwestern University is where Meghan Markle went she's now our big, big claim to fame. It's the kind of place where a lot of kids, they talk about college often, and you're expected to go. So it was, I was an anomaly in my friend group, dropping out. But I bring it up now. I mean, I think about it and talk about it now because, you know, I think we don't talk enough about how it's okay to be like an hourly clock punching person. I've always had jobs. I've always like been okay and done my writing on the side. So I don't have a degree to show off but I've managed to do okay without it have you ever been in situations where you have felt the lack of that college degree oh all the time even now I mean no one's going to parties now, but like you go to parties, you go to dinner and people are talking about events.

And I'm like, I don't know geography. I don't know where anything is. I don't know anything about anything. And if people wanted to talk about reality TV or like memes, I would be okay. But people start talking about the news. And I'm like, oh my god, I don't know anything. I don't know anything. So sometimes I think, you know, when people are discussing things, I'm like, oh, not that going to college 20 years ago would help with what was on the news yesterday. But I do feel sometimes my topics of discussion

are lacking, especially when among like erudite people who like to talk about smart things. But generally, I just surround myself with idiots. So then we all just talk about dumb stuff. All my actual friends are stupid. It's the ideal solution yeah I'm like oh you have a PhD no no no we cannot be friends nice to meet you where is your moron friend because I would like to hang out with them. But you mentioned that almost in passing about your parents dying shortly one after the other. And what was it about that that made you come to the conclusion that you were going to drop out of this course? I mean, that's probably a really stupid question. What wasn't it about that? It probably changed your world. No, no, no,

it isn't at all. I mean, it gives me the opportunity to talk about another thing that we you know I think sometimes gets glossed over in the how do you put together a life of it all is that like I didn't have a safety net and one of the things even with like just going to school is where do you go home to on winter break? Where do you go home to on spring break? What do you do over the summer? And so with them both dying, and I was technically an adult, I didn't have answers to those questions. And maybe I could have investigated like loans or other ways of supporting myself. But you know, I came from working class people. And so the only thing to my mind was, okay, I gotta get a job. And so I got this job working in a bakery. And

I lived with my sister for a little while, but she had two kids and a husband and was like, you know, out of the nest, out of the nest. And so I worked at the bakery for a while. And I was like, okay, I'm getting a regular paycheck, I can pay half the rent, if I get a roommate, you know, I can live together. And I think both not really having any options of where to go and what to do but also finding that like I could be responsible and get a paycheck and pay my bills like those two things kind of converged and I was like okay I'm not gonna go back to school I'm just gonna keep working and get an apartment and I don't know that I thought start living but essentially start real life because it strikes me that and actually I'm

going to quote you back to yourself here which is the nauseating thing that interviewers do but that essay that I mentioned one of my favorites of your essays my mother my daughter and if anyone hasn't read it it's available online and it's just an astonishing piece of work starts with the sentence, my mother became my daughter when I was nine years old. And it just strikes me listening to you talk that you had been required to be far more adult than your age for a long time, but you were living someone else's life. And maybe it felt like stepping out of college was like, finally, I can live my own life. I mean, how long had you felt, if I'm not overstepping here, that you were having to adult your own parents?

Oh, I think from age nine. I mean, my dad was kind of off being an alcoholic and not really having a place to live. And I mean, he kind of was in and out, mostly out of my life. So it was just her. I lived with my mom until I was 13, 14, my freshman year of high school. 13, 14, my freshman year of high school. And from nine to 13, it was basically me being the mom and her not, I mean, she just, she just couldn't do much of anything. Like once her multiple sclerosis came out of remission, she was pretty incapacitated. And so I was doing a lot of the things that she should have been doing. And L, right? Like when you think about a kid at nine, it's like even if a nine-year-old came to clean my house now, I'd be like, get out of here. You're just going to make it dirtier.

So it's not that I was even doing a good job with all of the stuff I had to do. I was just trying to keep our heads above water, pretty much. And part of that was like keeping it hidden how bad we were. We were struggling. But yeah, from nine to 13, I pretty much was parenting her. What happened when you were 13? See, here's the thing. I'm a storytellereller but I just like dropped off the story she she went into a nursing home when I was 13 and then she had an accident at home

where she fell early in the morning like but like right after I had left for school and then I stayed after school I mean who even knows what I was doing nothing useful I guarantee that so I got home late and she had been on the floor all day because she couldn't get up and I had to call an ambulance and she was in the hospital for a while and the hospital was like yeah you can't go back to your apartment like we need to find a nursing home for you so she went into a nursing home and then I kind of bounced around between like foster situations until I graduated from high school. I'm so sorry you went through that. And I find it... Oh, thank you.

No, I just find it so remarkable that you are who you are. And you say in wow, no thank you, that you've never had therapy. That first year of college, like my dad died in February. And I had a little bit of an emotional breakdown then because I had to do all of the funeral stuff and it was a lot and then I came back to school had a little bit of a breakdown then I started seeing like you could go see a student therapist so like during that time I had like a brief counseling and the woman's name was Gabrielle

I still remember she was really great and then after that I was working and I mean I was making like 7.25 an hour and no benefits there definitely wasn't money for therapy so I just kind of didn't do anything. Tried to joke my way sane. I mean, I'm sure you've been asked this a million times. It's the most unoriginal question of all time. But do you think that writing began as your therapy? Unconsciously? Yes. I mean, you know, I started really writing on the internet to get dates. Well, to one person. And then I dated him and it flamed out and was bad. And then I was like, oh, forget this.

And then my friends were like, no, we read that. Start a real blog. And then I think once I really started doing it and kind of like processing all of these things that were happening and trying to like spin comedy gold out of some of the bad stuff, especially. Yeah, I think it definitely has been a stand in for therapy. I still don't go to therapy. I probably shouldn't admit that, but I still don't. Listen, whatever you're doing is working. You sound unbelievably sorted. And

you're not joking when you say that that's why you started writing because on your blog, there's an introduction and it says that in 2008, this is you writing. I started a blog on MySpace. Do you even know what that is? To convince this hot dude to be my boyfriend. He eventually dumped me and that was pretty terrible. But now I have a book on the New York Times bestseller list. Thank you, dude. And I just think that is so on brand for this podcast. It's like you took a failure and you made a massive success. And I want to applaud you for that. But that does lead us on to your second. I'm never so happy to be dumped. Yeah, exactly. Do you know what, Samantha? This podcast started after I got dumped. So I think we both have reasons to be grateful

for those badly behaved twats. Yeah. Technical term. God, I could listen to you say twats all day. Okay, well, okay. Again, another podcast. I love this because we're not actually seeing each other we're recording remotely during lockdown and it gives it a whole added frisson

this is great I'm having the best time me too you're so lovely that leads us on actually to your second failure which is that you have had many many failed relationships I don't know which ones you'd like to focus on first. Is there one that sticks in the mind as being particularly a failure? Well, in the book before this one, which is called We Are Never Meeting in Real Life, I wrote this essay called A Blues for Fred.

And it's about my old boyfriend, Fred, who when I met him I am from the watched too many episodes of Sex and the City and thought maybe like my life could be that kind of generation when did that come out like 2005 too long ago it doesn't feel that long ago does it yeah no it doesn't it really doesn't but I don't know if I thought this but there was a part of me that hoped that there would be like some fairy tale person that would come along and I'd be like yes you yes so then I met him and he was the first person I'd ever met who was put together. He had, you know, a house and a car, neither of them fancy, but they were like his. And there was no roommate. There was no like, my mom's upstairs, be quiet. And it was like, he'd had like towels, like more than one towel, and more than one

pillow. And that to me, it was like the first time I had ever dated anyone who had multiple towel sets and I was like any a juicer he had this really fancy juicer and I was like oh my god this person has multiple towels and makes his own juice this is it this is the grown-up that I have been waiting for and I projected all of my hopes and dreams onto him and I thought I was like oh this is my person this is gonna be great and then it didn't work because he wanted a wife and children and like the wife would stay at home and tend to the children, which was a surprise to me because I thought I could clock that kind of guy. I was like, oh, this is weird. Okay, didn't expect this from you. And so it didn't end badly.

And badly, it was just one of those things that's like, well, okay, we've been at this for a couple of years and I'm not going to change my mind about crawling around on the floor chasing your children and you're not going to change your mind about holding my suitcases while I go on tour to sell books about our life. So I guess, you know, we have to wrap this up. So yeah, that is my one big failed relationship. And I think it looms so large, because it was like the first time I'd really like gotten my hopes up. And that sounds so heteronormative or fairytale or I mean, whatever term you can use to dismiss that kind of fantasy, but it really was I was like, oh, every rom com that has imprinted on my brain led me to this moment. And then very quickly was like, okay, we're not. Okay. And then we spent a lot of time like maybe maybe and then ultimately it was just like no we should stop that's so fascinating because I think I went wrong in multiple

relationships because I expected it to be like a rom-com and a specific diet of 1980s rom-coms like working girl or pretty woman or whether man is always completing the woman's life in some integral way. And it took me a very long time to realize that that wasn't going to happen unless I first completed my own life in my own way and knew myself. I was like, but that takes so much more work.

But- I know. Yeah. What did you learn from that? It's like, if I'm already put together, what do I need you for, right? Yes. You need to be the missing piece. Exactly.

What do you think you learned from that relationship? Did you learn everything you needed to know or did it take a succession of other failed relationships? No, that was the last one period before I met my now wife. And it ended and I was like, okay, this was a big thing. I gotta just stop. I have to take down all my dating profiles and stop looking. Like I need a celibacy break. I need to reassess what I'm looking for like it felt so monumental to me

that I had to completely stop and so I did I just I didn't date anyone I didn't look for anyone I didn't go back because you know there was a temptation right afterward to sift through all the rubble of my previous failed relationships and like see if I could resuscitate any of those and I was like nope not gonna do that and then I got deeper into like trying to make my writing career happen and I wrote the first version of my book Meaty and just dove into that as a distraction then after that book came out I met my wife because she tweeted me about the book wow I didn't know that that's how you met yes I love it. And then we just started texting and built a long distance relationship from there. But yeah, after that one big heartbreak, I was like, okay, not doing this again. And what was it about your now wife that was different? Because I know when I met my now boyfriend,

and I feel like you and I have had quite a similar trajectory dating-wise, and I also had gone on a break and not done the profiles and all that sort of stuff because I was just so sick of it. And then I downloaded Hinge one day, and Justin was the first person I met and the only person I went on a date with, and that's him. So we also met online but I think because he was so decent and straightforward and good I didn't recognize it as that because I was so unused to it so it felt very unfamiliar to me and I didn't get it

for ages and I wonder if did you have a similar thing with your wife I mean it's almost like the exact same where you meet someone who's not trying to play a trick on you or lie to you or withhold I've fallen into that trap a lot where you know someone is being intentionally withholding or and you view it as mysterious and it's like, ooh. But really it's like, no. There's not much there. They're just an asshole. Laughing so hard through relating.

Yeah. I mean, we've all been through it. I mean, that's my thing is like we have to say it so then other people can like feel like they can admit theirs too I've been tricked I've been tricked by you know someone who I hadn't had before and we built a friendship first because it was long distance so there was no kind of reckless jumping right into anything and she just was interested in me and enthusiastic about not just me, but about like herself and life in general. And she's just a nice, good person.

And that was so new and refreshing to me. And as we started to talk more and more, it just felt like so natural. And I bet you can relate to this. I had been so conditioned. And I don't even know that I mean that in the bad way. But I had been so conditioned to expect, you know, butterflies and the heart dropping stomach flipping roller coaster feeling and we never had that it was always just like natural yes and comfortable and easy and I didn't feel like I had to put on a show or be anything I wasn't and that was new for me too right the guy was used to okay I gotta do this

gotta be dazzling and I gotta whip out my best jokes I always have to be on and I never felt like that with her and after a while I was like okay maybe this is the feeling that I should have been looking to feel with someone rather than the will they won't they call me do they don't they like me like from the outset it was just like hey I like you you're funny I like what you do you know I dated a person once who was like I don't understand why other people think you're funny why I dated that person for like a year and a half so was that a man yes oh yeah I mean this is why I try not to even talk to any men anymore in general no I'm just kidding the men who listen to this podcast are so lovely but the other ones yeah let us not bother with every no they

everyone listening to this knows i don't mean them yeah but like we're waiting for that feeling of oh i want to do a cartwheel because this person is so great i'm like maybe that's like not what you want maybe you don't want the person who makes you feel nervous or not good enough or that you have to perform for them. Maybe it's the person who you're like, oh, hey, being around you is nice. I don't feel stressed. You're interesting. This is great.

I cannot tell you how much I agree. And I feel safe. That's another thing. You're not fearful. Yes. The feeling that you might lose them or that they might be seeing someone else or that you might say the wrong thing. I mean, we dress that up as like excitement, but really it's just stress. It's just stress. And I'm like, why do I want to be with someone who stresses me out

all the time? No way. I just want to be cool. And so I found that. And Kirsten, your wife has two children and you outline in your book, your parenting theories and you call it, which I think is so brilliant, detachment parenting. And you talk a bit about stepmothers. Now I used to be a stepmother and my partner now has three children and I so related to when you made the point that culturally there are no great stepmothers that I can immediately think of they're all evil wicked witches in fairy tales and it's so unfair when you are one because it's such a thankless task you don't get any of the good stuff and you get all of the bad stuff and that's why I'm a massive supporter of your theory

of detachment parenting so explain to us what it is it's basically that I am kind of a passive bystander most of the time. I mean, you don't tell them really anything or correct them. And occasionally you sweep in and do something cool, like take them to see a scary movie. You know, I'm buying these kids candy all the time or I flew them out to LA when I was working but other than that so the upside of that because that sounds like kind of like bleak and mean but the upside is that nothing that goes wrong with them can be my fault yeah nothing we're not cuddled up reading books every night. But also, if they rob a gas station in

the future, it won't be because of something I did. And I'll just be like, listen, I watched you from afar. I did not contribute to any of those bad things in your life. And is your wife okay with it? Were you clear about how involved or not you would be beforehand? Oh, yeah. Before I moved in, even. Like, we dated for a long time before I moved in. And I was clear. I mean, the thing is, they have two parents who love them,

take care of them, and put them on a vaccine schedule and all the stuff that like parents are supposed to do, right? Like get their allergies checked and all that other stuff. So they don't need me to do that, especially considering my limited knowledge of what a child actually needs. So I was like, listen, I'll be there. I'll do whatever you need me to do for you. You know, if they need me to get them a bike, I can do that. But like the parenting stuff, I'll leave to their actual parents. And like, everybody has been okay with that. I mean, I got a knock on wood but so far it's working out I love that and then I think it makes it everyone enjoys everyone else's company a lot more yeah you know it was

with my my worst I mean I have many worst nightmares but one of them I mean two of them around the kids are one that in the future they'll be like this thing you wrote or said or did when I was 13 ruined my life forever. Like that's one. But also, I have a very specific like horror fantasy of being, hey, wash the dishes. And then they turn around and are like, you're not my mommy. Yeah. And I cannot, I can't have that happen to me. I just can't. wash the dishes and then they turn around and are like you're not my mommy yeah and i cannot i can't have that happen to me i just can't you know what i mean that's exactly the same thing

that will haunt me i can't do it i cannot do it so i don't yell like that kind of rejection i don't know what i would do it would never stop playing on a continuous loop in my head. I would just be like, remember that time she screamed, you're not my mommy in your face. Like it would torment me forever. So I do everything I can to avoid those kinds of interactions. Are you happy not having your own biological children? Yes.

I mean, this is so rude, but I could walk away from these ones. I mean, maybe not even forever, right? But if they, you know, the one plays the drums, like I could just, if he's on the drums for an hour, I can just like go get in the car and go away. Yeah. And if they were mine, I mean, you cannot leave your own biological children. I've never had the, even as a kid, I never had the, I want to be a mommy. I never had that. I don't want to risk doing that to another kid. So part of it is like that, that I wouldn't be able to provide the best life for a child. But then the other part is I like to sleep. I have no patience. I like to do what I want when I want. And you just can't if you have a kid. And I've

never reached the age, well, now I'm married to a woman and it would take a lot more work, but I never got to the age where, you know, people get to the age where they're like, okay, don't people get to the age where they're like okay I'm ready to do this and sacrifice my needs for the needs of this child that hasn't happened to me yet so your third failure when I'm moving from the profound to what seems quite ridiculous I have to pick a dumb one I know but I love that I love that you did that I feel like that's it's just a you're a born storyteller because now we're going to end with a little palate cleanser which is that once you failed a drama class because you were so uptight which I can't imagine you being uptight yeah so that's when people are like how can you be so open? I'm like, because when it's written down and you just kind of hand it to people in a

book, that's one thing. Or if I'm doing a show and you come to see me read, that's another thing. But the act of like letting go in my body and inhabiting a character or doing something like dramatic. I mean, to circle back around to shame,

that is a thing that makes me so embarrassed. I can't even function. So every time I have been forced to take a drama class or a movement class or anything like that, I never do well because I just like clam up. Any sort of emoting that isn't part of, you know, like a joke making kind of thing, I can't do it. I cannot. Do you think that's because it feels inauthentic to you yeah I used to do a lot

of storytelling shows in Chicago and I definitely have a stage presence is the wrong word but almost like a character right like when are you like if you listen to my audiobook you can hear that there's kind of the character of Samantha Irby that I am reading in that's gonna sound really creepy but I'll just go with it interesting it sounds interesting yeah so I can do that I can be me doing a reading and like having a relationship with a listener but anything other than that specific person if I have to perform it if you're like be a sad woman who got caught outside in the rain I just I can't I cannot do it or be a happy little girl who just got her first puppy I will just clam up I can't do it and it was an actual specific drama class

that you failed yeah I mean my early 20s I mean it just was out of like boredom or something to do I took this class that was like you know it had some like hippy dippy name like freeing the body or you know something like that and because my friend was like let's do this and you know I will do anything if it's like dumb enough so I was like okay let's do this and I went and I couldn't do any of the exercises and of course it's like low stakes I paid for it the grade or assessment doesn't matter but and at the end it was like a six-week kind of thing the teacher was just like you I did not expect that you would be the person who couldn't loosen up but yeah you were terrible and I was like in deeply ashamed I'm like I'm so sorry

it's so bad that even if I were just thinking like I'm alone in my dining room right now just thinking if I had to pretend to be like someone crying I couldn't even do it alone so I don't know why I think maybe I was more optimistic back then and thought that with the right teaching I could be lured out of my acting shell but no I couldn't I totally agree with you because I sometimes think of the fact that a lot of actors now audition by sending in recorded videos from their iPhone. And the idea of having to perform a scene with, like, full emoting just in front of your smartphone is tortuous to me.

But you've hung around actual real-life actors because you've written for television, most notably on Shrill,indy west's brilliant sitcom and i wonder how you find it being around those kind of people do you find them sort of magical because they can do these things yes i'm incomplete uh let me tell you in the episode that i wrote i'm in it i don't know if that's a little easter egg for anyone who watches episode four of shrill so just watching people on set I just was like mystified there's a scene where 80 has to do this speech that I wrote about being fat and like struggling with her body her whole life and she has to cry and I watched her do the scene like

you know they make them do it like 12 times and every time she had to cry and she was so good and it was so believable and I was like I don't understand how you did that and then Lindy and I are in a scene where we literally have to walk past other people and I have on giant sunglasses I look like a secret service agent and I'm so stiff and weird I was like I was like listen if you want to cut me out that's fine I look terrifying it's so bad so yeah watching people who can do that and be loose and free I just I am in awe I'm in awe I'm gonna go back and watch episode four of shrill it'll be like when you see Hitchcock in his own films yeah I'll tell you to make it easier I'm wearing a red dress okay okay like email me and let me know when you find me.

I will. I'm super excited. Although I know that you don't like replying to emails because there is an extremely funny passage in your book where you talk about how sometimes, and you're not bigging yourself up, but you're like, sometimes I do get emails from people who kind of like my work and either I ignore them for months on end and then they just disappear or in a fit of admin you decide to reply and then you get stuck I think you call it like this endless loop of thank yous and it made me laugh so much I've been in so many of those endless loops where you do something nice and then you feel guilty for not replying to the reply to your reply it's just like when do we stop when does it stop like you thanked me and so I want you to know that I saw it and I'm thanking you but then if you circle around and it's like at that point you have to decide are we gonna be friends or should I just risk looking rude it's hard but I would respond to your email and then I respond back and be like

let's be friends okay can we but that's because we've had this we've we are I mean I'm establishing a friendship here I don't know what you're doing. Me too. Me too. Let me allay any embarrassment you fear. I'm desperate to be your friend. I would love it. Let's just email each other all the time about the Real Housewives of New York. Cause I'm always looking for someone just to endlessly dissect those programs with. Oh my God. Me. It's me. It's me. What do you think of the new girl, Leah? Oh, I think she's great. Me and me too yeah I didn't expect you because I'm a bit Vicky Gunvalson about newcomers I don't always take them straight away but I think Leah has made just a storming entrance she's so good too I love her and I love that she's bringing out a maternal side to Ramona I'm so sorry for anyone who doesn't watch Real Assets for New York. A, what are you doing? But B, sorry about this.

Yeah, exactly. They are. They are. We need to get you a Bravo sponsorship after this. Stop. I mean, Andy Cohen would be my dream interviewee as well as you, joint equal with you. It's just a matter of calls.

We got to know somebody who knows somebody. The world is too small. I'm on it. I'll figure it out. Thank you. You're so lovely. Samantha Irby, you have lived up to every single expectation I had and exceeded them. And I don't know how you've done that because they were already sky high. And I just cannot thank you

enough for being the delightful and brilliant person that you are. Thank you for having me, Elizabeth. This was so great and so fun. I would do it every week I mean no I know we can't but I would if you know just saying if you're ever looking for someone to talk to every week I'm here for you thank you I'll see you this time next Tuesday thank you so so much