How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S8, Ep7 How to Fail: Siena Castellon

Episode Date: July 15, 2020

Siena Castellon is my youngest ever guest. She's a 17-year-old activist and mentor. She is autistic, has dyslexia and dyspraxia and Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. And she's just published her first book.Her book, The Spectrum Girl's Survival Guide: How to Grow Up Awesome and Autistic, is a brilliant guide for neurodiverse girls navigating a neurotypical world. It is packed full of information and insight into many of the challenges that autistic teen girls face. There are sections on how to date, how to deal with social anxiety and sensory sensitivity and an analysis of the fact that autism is routinely underdiagnosed in girls (in Siena's words: 'we’re really good at hiding our autistic traits. In fact, we become so good at pretending to be “normal” that we convince everyone that we’re neurotypical.')Siena joins me to talk about being bullied at school, being misunderstood by teachers and failed by a mainstream education system that seemed unable to appreciate her difference. We discuss neurodiversity, sexism, dogs, prejudice, challenging the stereotypical 'Rainman' view of autism and why it's important to stand up for yourself. As Siena puts it: 'I've learnt that you can't assume that people experience the world the way you do and that it's important to express yourself to avoid people making untrue assumptions about you.'Siena is AMAZING. Listen to her and feel inspired (and also probably quite old).*The Spectrum Girl's Survival Guide: How to Grow Up Awesome and Autistic by Siena Castellon is out now and available to purchase here.*I've written a new book! Failosophy: A Handbook For When Things Go Wrong is out in October. It's a practical, inspirational and reassuring guide to the seven principles of failure I've developed since doing this podcast. Packed full of contributions from loads of former guests, as well as listener stories, it is also beautifully illustrated by Paul Blow and I would love it if you wanted to pre-order a signed copy here. *How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted by Elizabeth Day, produced by Naomi Mantin and Chris Sharp. We love hearing from you! To contact us, email [e-mail]* Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdaySiena Castellon @NCWeekHow To Fail @howtofailpod    Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by card, other conditions apply. Just a note before we start, this season of How to Fail with Elizabeth Day was recorded remotely under lockdown. This episode of How to Fail with Elizabeth Day is sponsored by Aurelia Probiotic Skin Care, which provides intelligent skincare with integrity. Their probiotic concentrate is a potent probiotic skincare treatment designed to support the skin's natural defenses and to boost your skin's natural production of collagen and hyaluronic acid, all the good stuff. There are literally hundreds of

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haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned from failure. In many ways, Sienna Castellon is a typical teenager. She is 17, loves music, Harry Potter, Netflix, makeup, chocolate, and her dog Rico. In other ways, though, she is not so typical. She is also autistic, has dyslexia and dyspraxia, and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. When she was 13, Sienna set up a mentoring website for other people like her, offering practical

tips and supportive advice for how to navigate a world built along neurotypical lines. Because Sienna believes that neurological differences, such as her own, are natural variations in the human brain, and that our society pathologises these conditions and wrongly seeks to cure them, rather than embracing and harnessing the very many strengths and talents that people with these conditions can offer. In 2018, she was given a Teen Hero Award by BBC Radio 1 for her inspiring work, and she has just written a fantastic book, The Spectrum Girls Survival Guide, How to Grow Up Awesome and Autistic, which provides information and insight into many of the unique challenges that autistic teen girls face. It's the kind of book Sienna wished

she could have read growing up, but all the books she found that dealt with autism were written by neurotypical people, so she decided to break the mould. She is, as you might already have gathered, an exceptional young woman. Never be ashamed of being different, she writes. It is this difference that makes you extraordinary and unique. Sienna, welcome to How to Fail. Thank you so much for that introduction. I'm so happy to be here. I'm so happy to have you. And I absolutely loved your book. And I know that I'm in no way the target audience because I'm definitely not a teenage girl. But I just thought it was so well written with compassionate, practical advice. And I just think it's such an achievement. And when I was reading it, I realized that a lot of the things that you were talking about are so relevant to this podcast, because it's all about making things that are traditionally, culturally, socially seen as failure into your own personal success. So tell me, why did you decide to write it? And did you enjoy the process of writing it? I really enjoyed the process of writing the book. Initially,

I thought that I might kind of struggle with the organization of it. I'm like dyspraxic. And so I struggle kind of like ordering things. And so I thought that maybe it might be a bit difficult to get that. I also thought that with my dyslexia, I would have to overcome a few challenges. But it worked really well. I was able to balance my schoolwork with writing the book. I was able to work with my publisher, Jessica Kingsley Publishing, and get everyone who worked on the book to be a female autistic. That's amazing. Yeah that was very important to me another thing that I loved about it was I got a forward by Dr

Temple Grandin who's been a massive inspiration to me since I was first diagnosed with autism and she's just an icon and I remember being given the opportunity to call her and I saw her face to face through this Skype conference. And it was so empowering for me because she's just I've idolized her for such a long time. And to have her there and to have her know my name and to have her want to be involved in this project was amazing. Was it more amazing than when Shawn Mendes said that he loved you at the Teen Awards? That was a really big surprise for me. Although I'm not really a Shawn Mendes fan, I was kind of amazed that he had the time and he kind of knew who I was and he agreed to do it. But I was blown away by Lana Del Rey. I've been a fan of hers since I was maybe like 10. And to have her know who I am and to

have her record a little video, I was so shocked and so excited about that. I love it. You've got such exceptional taste. I love Lana Del Rey as well. You were diagnosed as being autistic when you were 12. Was that a relief? It really was. I'd been bullied a lot growing up and people had always said stuff like you're so different you're so weird and at first I thought it was just kids being mean but then the teachers started saying it as well they would say you know I think it's your fault you're being bullied because you know you're not fitting in with the other kids you're so different and then I started realizing that maybe like there might be something wrong with me. And it affected my self-esteem and my confidence. I suffered from pretty extreme social anxiety. I would always wonder, you know, why can't I fit in with everyone else? Why can't I

have friends? Why am I always being bullied? Why am I so different? And then when I found out that I could be autistic, it was a massive relief because I felt like I could be part of a community where I don't stand out and I'm not different. I'm just one with everyone else. And I could have someone who understands me. And that's what I really love about being part of the autistic community. Just getting that understanding. the work you do is so brilliant because you talk about how as a society we have a certain image of an autistic person in our minds and for many of us I mean I'm quoting you here it's Raymond from Rayman it's Dustin Hoffman playing an autistic character and I'd love to ask you a little bit about why it's important to challenge our perceptions of what autism is.

I think that if you have this stereotype that it's, you know, Raymond or someone who represents a relatively small part of the spectrum, you're not fully getting everyone else. And it makes it harder to diagnose people and give people support. and it makes it harder to diagnose people and give people support. A lot of the time people tell me, oh, you can't be autistic because you're a girl or oh, you can't be autistic because you make eye contact and you can have conversations. And it's clear that they have that stereotype in mind and it isolates a lot of the community,

but it also affects the way people are diagnosed. The diagnosis criteria is based off the male stereotype. And it means that a lot of girls are misdiagnosed and go throughout their life feeling how I did before I got diagnosed, feeling different and always questioning what's wrong with them. And that can really affect your self-esteem and confidence in the way you view the world. That's fascinating. So the world of autism diagnosis is predicated on this kind of male idea. Are you also quite often treated or come into contact with experts who are men rather than women? Yeah, there are a lot of experts who are male and there are also a lot of

experts who are neurotypical, which I find interesting because there's some books written for autistic girls that are written by neurotypical men that was what was so important about writing my book I wanted to have a teen survival guide written by a teen autistic girl you mentioned there about eye contact and one of the things that you say in your book is that it looks like you're making eye contact and actually you're looking at people's foreheads. Is that something that you've learned how to do because you know that you quote unquote should be doing that? Yes. When I was, I think six years old, I went to this primary school where the head teacher would shake your hand every day as you walked through the door.

And she would always make sure that we had a strong handshake and that we looked her in the eye and said good morning and I always really struggled with that because I struggled with eye contact at that age but I also struggled with social anxiety and the idea that she was much older than me she was much more senior in her position like she was a head teacher and I was just this six-year-old. I was scared of her. And then to make eye contact with her and focus on the handshake,

which I don't really like handshakes because of my sensitivities. I don't like the idea of like firmly squeezing someone's hand because I'm very sensitive to touch. And so focusing on all of that at once was so overwhelming. And every day she would say you have to look me in the eye and I would always like struggle with it and eventually after enough time I kind of figured out how I could look at her forehead and then I would pass and that would

be all right and it was that experience that kind of got me to start making eye contact but it was a rather traumatic it's like I don't want to use such a loaded term but it was difficult for me I remember every morning being kind of concerned that she was gonna tell me off for not looking her in the eye and she saw it as very disrespectful she didn't see it from my perspective just like I have this weird fear of looking people in the eye she saw it as like you're not treating me with respect and so it was difficult and I feel like if that had been flagged earlier I could have been taught in a way that's more understanding and more open but I learned how to make eye contact through that and what other ways does your autism manifest

itself I mean I appreciate that that's a loaded question for me to ask, and I hope it's not offensive. And also because you've lived all your life as Sienna, it's probably quite difficult for you to identify unless you spend a lot of time sort of self-analysing. But for those of us who don't fully understand the condition, how would you explain it in yourself? the condition how would you explain it in yourself well I would say that the thing with my autism is it varies day to day with my dyslexia I always have bad spelling it doesn't matter what time of day it is when it is you can always count that that will be an issue for me with my autism though there are some days where I can use public transport and it's not a problem. I can give speeches in front of big audiences on my neurodiversity and I can manage that just fine.

And then there are other days where I can't leave the house. My anxiety, when it flares up, it means that my sensory processing disorder becomes heightened. And so I become more sensitive to touch, to bright lights, to sounds. And it can become very difficult to go out in the open and use public transport and live kind of everyday life. Then it can sometimes become a cycle where you're not leaving the house and so you're not exposing yourself to those sounds. So when you hear them, you get more distressed by them. My autism, a lot of my time revolves around managing it and finding ways to make things easier like wearing a headset and being open about my autism and telling people when I need adjustments but it also focuses on pushing myself and doing

things outside of my comfort zone so I can learn what I'm capable of doing. And how are you today? Because we're recording in lockdown, so we're recording virtually where we can't see each other. And I wonder if, in a way, that's quite a relief. But I also wonder how you've been coping with the need to distance socially and with all of the anxiety that comes with being trapped in our houses. How has that been for you? Well, I've had mixed emotions on it. I struggle a lot with reading body language and taking apart facial expressions and so in that way it's kind of beneficial to not be seeing anyone because that's one less thing I have to worry about but when you can't read tone of voice sometimes you do use kind of visual cues and so the one

thing about telephone calls is I can't tell when someone's about to speak and so that's led to a few awkward moments and so I'm trying to find that balance between like doing zoom calls but also trying to do some telephone calls with social anxiety and just kind of now being in quarantine I haven't left my house in two months now it's given me more time to focus on my schoolwork and on just trying to understand my autism even more and get into a better place and focus on my ADHD and with just certain tips and tricks that I can help with my life. A lot of the time I'll try to come up with the kind of tips that I can put in my book. But it's very time consuming. And it takes, I don't want to say a lot of experience, because I'm only 17.

But it does take a lot of learning. And it's difficult to do when you're consumed with other things and just consumed with everyday life. And now that I've been given the opportunity to spend a lot of time alone without those distractions, it's given me kind of a new outlook. Now, someone who is keeping you company is Rico the dog, who is a frequent presence when you talk and write. What is it about Rico that is so special? I got him when I was 12 years old. I was going through a rough time at school and he helped me through it in many ways. He was a presence that I could have that wouldn't stress me out, that I felt wouldn't judge me for however difficult things were and however I was

acting and however I was expressing how I was feeling. He's also like very calming. With my sensory processing disorder, I don't normally like to be around other people or touch other people. But with him, he's got very soft fur. And so sometimes I'll just stroke him to calm myself down. Oh, Sienna, I'm welling up. What kind of dog is he? He's a long-haired chihuahua. Oh, okay. My niece has just got one of those. They are the cutest dogs in the world. I know. He's very small and he doesn't require a lot of, he doesn't have that energy that the bigger dogs do. And so he's a lot more kind of calming to be around, I feel. Your failures when you sent them to me were so eloquently expressed that I'm sort of

tempted just to stop this podcast and just post these up on the show notes because you've done such an amazing job of telling me about them and telling me what you learned from them. But let's start with your first failure, which is being bullied. You've already touched on it, but I'm very interested in the specific obsession that you had when you were around eight of going to boarding school. So tell us what happened. Well, when I was younger, I realized that there was a disconnect between how I was at school and how I was at home. At home, my mother didn't know I was autistic. I was diagnosed four years later. But she knew who I was.

Like, she knew that I did have my sensory processing disorder. She didn't call it by that term, but she knew that I was very sensitive with my clothes and that I didn't like bright lights and loud sounds. And so she would shelter me from that. At school, I would have to wear a very scratchy uniform but at home she would make sure that I had like nice cotton clothes that wouldn't cause me that same anxiety and she would make sure that the TV would be on a lower volume so I wouldn't get stressed out by it and because of that I was a different person at home. I was able to show more of my personality and be who I believed I was rather than spending all my time

worrying about my sensory processing disorder. I also didn't have to worry about people judging me and people having these misconceptions of me. I could just be myself. And so at home, I was able to tell jokes and just feel like myself. But then when I went to school, I would struggle to string a sentence together sometimes, because I just had so much anxiety, so much other things that I was worrying about. And I couldn't understand why that was. And so I kind of pieced it together and was like, well, I think that if I were to live at school, then I would be the person that I am at home, which is a person that I prefer to this anxiety ridden kind of hot mess that I am at school. And so I had this obsession with going to boarding

school because I felt like I'll finally be able to have friends. The reason I don't have friends now is because I'm not myself when I'm at school. But that'll all change. That makes total, total sense. And so you did manage to get accepted to one of the leading all-girls boarding schools in the country. And you were invited to sit for an academic scholarship. So what happened when you got to that school? When I got there, initially, I was just so happy to be there. There was a lot that I had to overcome to get an offer and then like get it invited for an academic scholarship. When you've got like

dyslexia and dyspraxia, and at the time I had undiagnosed ADHD and autism. There were so many hurdles, especially at the time when you're younger, people are more focused on pretty handwriting and nice spelling and having the right punctuation. And so I had overcome all those hurdles and I was so kind of proud of myself that I'd gotten there. And I was so certain that I was going to have this great future at this school. Little did I know, I only lasted five weeks. Immediately, the kids noticed I was different. They realized that I didn't like sounds and I was very sensitive to touch. And so they started kind of hitting me to see how I would react. I had like a very big reaction to this,

like I would get very distressed, very upset. I would start crying. And they found it really funny because from their perspective, it's like I didn't even push you that hard. But because I had this sensory processing disorder, their little shove was to me like getting slammed into a wall, like that's how it felt and especially when I had all this anxiety it just really took its toll on me and they started pouring water on my bed and then I would go to the house matron and she would say oh well we can't do anything about it because the dry cleaning's closed. So you're just going to have to sleep in this wet bed. And that, for me, I couldn't do that because of my sensory processing disorder.

And so I started getting really sleep deprived, which would make my sensory processing disorder even worse. Then when they started hitting me with like hockey sticks and sticks, it became this absolute nightmare. There was no escape to it because, you know, if you're bullied at a day school, at least you can come home and you can have that rest. And then you can come back the next morning, kind of, I don't want to say ready for it because you never are, but just you can have some time to process. Whereas when you're at a boarding school,

Whereas when you're at a boarding school, it's nonstop. It became very difficult because initially the teachers and the matrons were on my side and they were like, well, this is completely unacceptable that they're hitting you and they're pouring water on your bed and they're taking your homework and ripping your notes. Like that shouldn't happen. But then it became, well, what's wrong with you? Like, why are they doing this to you? Why are they picking on you? And I started kind of focusing a lot on myself and on why they were targeting me.

I felt like I was the only person in the year who was feeling this way and who was being bullied this way. And it kind of reinforced this idea that I am different and I can't fit in. And it was especially painful because I entered the school experience feeling like it was going to be really positive, really enjoyable. I was going to have lots of friends and it was the complete opposite. And so, yeah, I left five weeks into the term and I moved to a different school. I moved to a different school. It took me a while to process all of it but afterwards I realised how important it is for there to be like advocates for disability related bullying because I didn't know it then but they were bullying me because I was autistic and because

I had that sensory processing disorder. I'm so so sorry you went through that. I can't imagine how terrifying and isolating that must have felt. How did you find the words and the courage to tell someone about it? Did you tell your parents about it? Yeah, I've always been very close to my mom. And so I felt comfortable telling her. And from her perspective, she kind of knew it was going to happen. I had this absolute obsession with going to boarding school, and she couldn't dissuade me. But she had an idea that it wasn't going to work out just because she knew that the kind of problems I have don't go away because you're spending more time with people, they just get worse because of it. That must have been so hard for her as a mother,

knowing that that was going to happen, but loving her child so much that she wanted to give you what you wanted. That must be such a difficult combination of parenting feelings and I'm interested that you've chosen it as a failure why do you think you've categorized it as a failure because for me it's very much the people who are bullying you as their failure and not yours well I see it mainly as just a setback that I've overcome and it's also just a change of mindset because at the beginning, it was so much a failure. Like up till the age of maybe 13, I always kind of blamed myself for that. And I always felt like, you know, I did something wrong. And the fact that all the teachers that the school were saying that I'd done something wrong, it just reinforced it even more.

the teachers at the school were saying that I'd done something wrong. It just reinforced it even more. And then after I started doing my campaigning, that mindset flipped. And I was like, well, I don't think I did do anything wrong. I'm just different. It's the bullies who did something wrong. And so I kind of wanted to recognize that even though something can look like a failure for a long time, and it can be really ingrained that it is a failure that mindset can change and you can see it later as just a setback that you've overcome and you're stronger because of I love that so much one of my former interviewees Carl Loco who was a gang leader actually you turned his life around he has this saying which is every setback is a setup for a comeback and I wonder how much you feel your motivation your drive to succeed the incredible achievements

you've made how much of that is about proving those buddies wrong do you think it gave you an added motivation it definitely did part of it also was just proving myself wrong sometimes because when you care so much about what other people think and you're so hungry for like acceptance what other people see you as you start to see yourself as and so initially it was just I kind of want to prove myself wrong. And I want to feel confident in myself and not have all these doubts anymore. And then once I got to that point, I was like, I want to go even further. So that everyone who doubted me and everyone who said I was different and said I was weird, they're now going to have to do Neurodiversity Celebration Week at their school,

where they have to hear all about how it's great to have differences and all about like the empowering message that Neurodiversity Celebration Week has. You served on the Diana Awards Anti-Bullying National Youth Board and you shared your experience. Do you think that schools are changing for the better in this respect? I think that they're gradually shifting. I think that there's been an increase in understanding of learning differences and that's incredibly helpful when it comes to especially autism related bullying. I strongly believe that when I was 11 and been bullied at Cheltenham, had some of the teachers known that I actually had a communication disability, they would have treated the whole situation differently. They would have been more

supportive of me and they would have known that actually this isn't just some harmless bullying, it's a hate crime. And I think I would have gotten more support for it. And so now, especially with my neurodiversity celebration week just raising awareness of autism so that teachers can start identifying it and helping their students. Have you ever been back to that school to give a talk or has anyone ever apologized to you from that school? No I haven't had much contact with them, but they are celebrating Neurodiversity Celebration Week, which I am excited about. I mean, what a wonderful legacy, Sienna. Good for you. That's really, really a beautiful place to end that failure on. is being misunderstood, which you have touched on about that feeling of not fitting in before you got your diagnosis. And you wrote me this beautiful story about being cast in the school play in year

six. So tell us about that and what happened. So I was trying to think of an example, which would kind of encapsulate this feeling of being misunderstood. And this was one that I thought had a bit of humor to it. And I remember pretty vividly. So when I was in year six, I was at this very small school. And after we sat our 11 plus and had our places for secondary school, the year six students would put on a play and we would be the main characters and then the rest of the school would kind of be in the background but it would be our scene and then that would be our send-off into secondary school and so we start going to drama rehearsals and we're doing the jungle book as our play and so we each have the opportunity to try out the different roles and then the drama teacher is like okay well I'll decide which ones you get

and I went to her before she assigned our roles and I said I would really like to have a smaller character just because acting isn't my strong suit and you know I am like dyspraxic and so I'm a bit clumsy and I'm just not sure how it would work out if I had a lead role with my limited acting skills and clumsiness and she was like oh it'll be fine I end up getting cast as Bagheera which is one of the main roles and And it's this, Bagheera is like a black panther that like prowls around on the stage. And immediately I was very concerned about having this role. And it was the exact role that I want to have because with my autism, I have sensitivities to these fibers and different temperatures.

And the idea of wearing the black pantsuit polyester onesie with like the bright lights was a complete nightmare for me. And also the idea of prowling around like a panther was very difficult because of my dyspraxia, which makes me very clumsy. And so I was really concerned about this. And then as the rehearsals went on, my drama teacher realized that it was not working out and it was looking like a complete mess. And instead of her taking that as, well, I mean, she did tell me that this was a concern.

And now I'm just seeing that she wasn't joking when she said that she took it as Sienna's completely capable of doing this she's just purposely kind of having a bad attitude and purposely not trying so that she can ruin the play and so I was called into the headmistress's office and she gave me a very difficult time and she told me off and she told me, you know, you're ruining the play. And if you don't change your attitude, then you are going to be replaced and you're not even going to be allowed to attend the play. And that was something that had never happened.

This whole play had always been this big year six production and there'd never been someone who hadn't done it and so even though I was upset about it and I did want to quit the play and I didn't want to have this big year a role I was upset that I've been falsely accused of not making an effort because from my eyes I put everything I had into this but I just had all these setbacks with my dyspraxia and all these different difficulties that I couldn't overcome by myself and so my mom ended up hiring an acting coach and we spent hours trying to perfect my panther walk I mean I wish that we had like a video somewhere I think it must have been like hysterical to watch because I'm I'm like the clumsiest person and so trying to coordinate

all your movement and stay close to the floor it was so crazy it was really difficult to do but I ended up performing in the play and the experience kind of taught me that it's really important to raise awareness because had I come to her and said you know what I'm like autistic and I'm dyspraxic and this just isn't going to work she might have taken me more seriously and it's kind of being assertive and instead of saying well I don't think this is going to work because I just have this minor thing, just being confident and clear. And I also learned that you can't assume that people experience the world the same way that you do. And it's just expressing yourself clearly so that people don't make false assumptions about you. It's just so extraordinary

listening to you talk because you're so fluent and eloquent and it breaks my heart that when you were such a young child you had to assume the responsibility of informing other people and doing all of that effort to be empathetic to their point of view when they as adults and teachers should have been doing it for you have you always been this eloquent Because the way that you talk is extremely impressive for someone of any age, let alone a 17 year old. How have you got this fluent? I just want to know for my own reasons. I think that it was mainly all the neurodiversity work that I've gotten into. When I was 13, I started my website. And then I slowly started to gain traction with it. And I remember going to an event where someone wanted me to give a speech. And there were maybe like four people

in the audience. And it was the most anxious I have ever been in my whole life. I thought I was going to faint. And then from there, it slowly kind of escalated. And because it was this slow transition, I was able to kind of learn in a small, safe environment and then apply that to a bigger audience. I remember I did the BBC Teen Heroes and I had to do all this press and I was on a radio

and then I had a crew of people come to my house and film a video with me. And that was a major learning experience because I had to talk to people about what I was going to say and then express that. And then also make sure that you're like expressing everything in the interview kind of like boot camp on how to express yourself and I'm kind of struggling now but that was and then also well with the BBC Teen Hero you have to

go on stage in front of 10,000 people and then a live audience sort of watching it from home. And I had to go on stage and give a quick speech about like my message. And it was difficult because I wasn't quite sure what I was going to say and also what question they were going to ask me and how it was going to segue. And so I'd kind of written something and I'd memorized it. And then they put me in this trap door and kind of pulled me up onto stage. And the second I was all the way up, I realized that I'd completely forgotten what I had written down. And I had no idea what I was going to say. And there was just this pause where I'm like, okay, I don't know what's happening now. And I start walking towards the three presenters who were there.

And I'm just completely blank. And then they start asking me a few questions and they were like oh how was your time here and I just answer that and then they ask me the big question which is like to share my message and they hand me the mic and I still have no idea what I'm going to say and then I just say these four or five lines which I'd never like it's not something I'd prepared but it was this message of like, oh, you know, if you see someone on your table and they're alone, you should always sit next to them and you should always be kind. And it's a phrase that I've actually used since then. And I don't know

how I came up with it on the spot, but I'm incredibly proud of that because I thought it was going to go terribly. And so since then, it's just given me a bit of confidence because even if I don't think things are going to work out in that situation, it did. You should be so proud of yourself because I've seen the footage and you spoke so brilliantly and actually foreshadowed a message, be kind, which has now become so integral to how people are encouraged to relate on social media. You've spoken a lot about your mother, who sounds wonderful, by the way, but you've also spoken about being misunderstood at school. When did you feel that you made friends? Well, having friendships has always been like particularly difficult for me. There was a time in my life where I did have a few friendships, but a lot of it was based on me compromising and

me changing what I wanted to do so that I could fit in with that other group. I remember when I was 13, I had a group of friends who really enjoyed going out and talking in loud groups and going to the cafeteria and being in all these loud social spaces. And it was something that made me really uncomfortable. But I didn't want to be the one person who's like, oh, I don't want to do that. I just want to sit in the library and just have a quiet conversation there. I wanted to fit in and be one with them. library and just have a quiet conversation that I wanted to fit in and be one with them. Initially, I was so happy that I finally had this friendship group. And it's something that I'd wanted for such a long time. But then once I had it, I realized that it actually wasn't

something that I wanted. I just wanted the idea of it. I just wanted to be like everyone else. And I thought that once I'd achieved that I'd be happy but then I just realized that you need to be around people who understand that you're autistic and don't want to change you and aren't gonna kind of make fun of you for just being quiet and wanting to do your own thing and understand that sometimes I need my time there are times if I've had a very difficult day where I just don't want to talk to anybody I just want to be in my room with my dog and sometimes having friends they don't quite get that and they think that's you distancing from them and you not wanting to spend time with them because maybe you don't like them anymore whatever assumption they have and it's difficult

communicating that when you've two different perspectives and so I changed my mindset to instead of just trying to have friends no matter what and changing myself no matter what I have to do to have friends I'll just wait till someone enters my life who's maybe like me maybe autistic or maybe just understanding to my differences and so until that happens I've got my dog but I've also got lots of people that I've met through my neurodiversity work who are inspirational to me and that I'm able to reach out to. There's a section in your book that deals with dating which I imagine is a minefield given everything that you've just told me.

Can you tell people listening what some of the advice that you give in that book about dating and consent? I've never dated and so as an autistic person that you give in that book about dating and consent? I've never dated. And so as an autistic person, that wasn't something that I was able to say, well, this is what I did. And this is how you can kind of learn from that. I went online, and I just read stories of autistic girls who had dated. And I decided to kind of pick apart what they've done, and then write about it, and apart what they'd done and then write about it and write what I'd learned from their experiences and I found that a lot of the time you will have boys in secondary school who will realize that you've got a girl who's different who's on the outside

and they'll see you as easy prey of sorts. It's really disturbing when you think about it. But they'll feel like, oh, well, I can kind of convince her to do things that she's not comfortable with. Because she wants acceptance. And she wants to have someone to be close to. And she wants to be like all the other girls. And so they'll say things that aren't necessarily true. And a lot of autistic girls because they struggle to read body language they struggle to read the social context will believe that and then

they'll end up in situations that they aren't comfortable with or in situations that they feel pressured to be in and so I just wanted to make that clear in my book that you should always be careful of those situations and know that you know there are some people who are going to be really nice and who are going to be really supportive and who you can be safe and comfortable with but there are some people who are going to try to take advantage of you and that's one of the reasons why I think the book is actually incredibly beneficial reading for any teenage girl because some of the things that you're saying are so relevant. And I just want to applaud you for that. You talk a lot about autism being celebrated as a superpower, rather than

diminished by neurotypical stereotypes. And I wonder if you could share with us some of your superpowers. I'm very into math and physics and before I got diagnosed I just thought that that was just part of who I was and I didn't really get why I had such like such a fixation with it and why my peers just saw it as oh that's something you do at school and then you kind of come home and you have your fun time. I later learned that that was a special interest of mine. And due to my autism, I was able to have this intense passion for a subject and love it so much that I want to spend my free time doing it. And now I've decided I want to dedicate my life to I want to study that and then I want to do that as my job and it's just given me so much happiness and I don't really know

who I would be without my autism and with that interest as well. Is there something about maths and physics that appeals to you because it is an ordered logical world where if you do it right the result comes that you expect yes I really value that in math especially with history or subjects like English a lot of your ideas can be right but it's the way you present them and it's the way you pick certain pieces of evidence and it's not clear cut there's not just one right answer it can sometimes just be up to a personal preference whereas with math if you've got two plus one it's not which number could be the answer you could debate to be the answer it's just one solid answer. And so I appreciate that. And you said in the past that your hero is Alan Turing. Why is that?

I read his proofs, his like mathematical workings, and they are so beautiful. People are still struggling to like decipher his handwriting, but what they have done is phenomenal and also just the way he thought i mean he was just he seemed very kind of out of the box willing to do his own thing not worrying about how society perceived him as much and just kind of being proud and authentic to who he was and he was also incredibly accomplished i still cannot believe that he was a runner and he was also incredibly accomplished. I still cannot believe that he was a runner and he almost made it to Olympic level. He was very good at it, but he was also one of the best mathematicians.

Yeah, I never knew that about him. And how he juggled both being so talented. I'm so embarrassed that I did single science GCSE talking to you, Sienna. Please don't judge me. Your final failure is related to what we've just been talking about which is a failure at an exam so explain to us why you chose this one and what happened when I was in year 12 I was at this very selective state specialist math school.

And I went into that school kind of like I did when I was 11 going into the boarding school. I felt like I would be accepted and understood and I would have all these friends. I mean, I learned that I should probably be more realistic now, but it was the same thing. And I thought that I was reasoned in that approach. And I went in and I realized almost immediately that that wasn't going to happen. But I was in a way prepared for that. I was a girl in a school that was majority male. The teachers liked to split us up into groups. And so they would have a girl in each group to keep it balanced. would have a girl in each group to keep it balanced. And so I would end up in a class with maybe three or four other girls, but never having any contact with them. I felt very ostracized a lot of the time. This time, not because I was autistic, but because I was a girl. If I got something right, it was because I was lucky. And if I got something wrong, it was because, I was lucky. And if I got something wrong, it was because, oh, well, girls are just bad at math,

boys are better at math. I then went into an economics class and I was taking AS economics. And my teacher just took an instant dislike to me. In the class, I really struggled because I was constantly asking her for reasonable adjustments. I was put in a seat where I couldn't see the board properly. And the thing with my dyslexia is I struggle to read messy handwriting as is, let alone when you're at a kind of angle where you can barely see it. And so for a large chunk of the year, I couldn't read the board. And so I didn't really know what was happening in class. I couldn't read the board and so I didn't really know what was happening in class. And my teacher was unwilling to make adjustments for that. She then went to senior members of staff and said,

Sienna shouldn't be allowed to take economics because she's not going to get an A and she's not doing well in the exams. And I really struggled with that because it was one of the first times where I've been told that I wasn't up to the academic standard and I felt really embarrassed by this and I felt like maybe she's right maybe I'm not good at economics maybe I'm not going to be able to get this A but a part of me was very confident that I was going to pull through and I was going to overcome this setback just like I'd figured everything else out in the past and so I worked incredibly hard I remember being at the library and my mom would call me and she'd be like Sienna it's 2am like you have to like it's not safe for you to just be walking home now and you've got school tomorrow and I just like no I have to keep working and I took a final exam and I was expecting to do well on it because of the

amount of work I've been. And I got an E and I've never gotten an E in my life. And I was just horrified by this. I had no idea how that had happened. And so I went home and I was so upset about it. And my mom, who always seems to understand me and know what's going on she said well I'm gonna put you in an Easter revision course and after we do this Easter revision course we'll just see what happens and so I entered the Easter revision course and at the end of the day the teacher pulls me aside and says you know you're really talented have you thought about doing economics at university and I'm like what do you mean do it at university I'm getting an e and she couldn't believe that I got an e and so I showed her my paper and she said this is actually one of the best papers I've ever seen it is it okay if I

keep it so I can show it to my class as like an example of what you should write oh my goodness I was sitting there I was I was in such shock and I remember crying on the way home because I was just so happy and I felt so understood and so I went back the next day and I brought her all these papers that I'd done and I was like is it true that these are all d's and c's and stuff and she looked at them and she was like no they're a's and a is the highest that you can get on an as exam and so I was in absolute disbelief and I went back into school and we showed my economics teacher all this evidence and we were like we're confused because if you actually look at the mark scheme I did get everything right and this other teacher who's been teaching for you know 10 years

longer than you is saying that it's all fine and she said well your writing style it's just not it's not conducive to getting an A we're not gonna let you take it here and I was so stressed out when she said that because I have extra time and it's very difficult to take it at another center and get the extra time transferred and so I called my economics teacher that I had from the revision course and I'm like is there any way that I could take it there because they're not letting me take it and she's like okay I'll see what I can do and somehow I don't know what miracle was pulled she managed to get me to have my extra time and to take it at her school and I will forever be so grateful to that teacher because had it not been for her

all that work would have come to nothing and I was capable of getting an A and I got the A in the end but because one teacher didn't like me at my other school that could have all come to nothing and after I did my exam and after I got my grade I remember just thinking you've got to listen sometimes to what other people are telling you and reflect on it but if you know that someone's just wrong or if you've got an idea of who you are and someone is telling you something that's completely conflicting with that you've got to believe yourself and so now I just have a completely different perspective and it's given me more confidence in who I am and I'm not doubting myself as much anymore because I just remember that time where

I wrote a paper that was one of the best papers that a teacher in another school had seen but because a teacher didn't like me it got an E. And what school are you at now I mean I know again we're talking at a specific time when schooling is done online but have you left that horrible economics teacher behind? Yes I've left it behind and I'm also suing them. I'm taking them to disability tribunal for disability discrimination. I'm just so proud of you. So, so proud of you for doing that. I'm utterly horrified by that story, as you could tell from my gasps of shock. Again, it feels like you have to be in the

role of the adult and the teachers in question, for whatever reason, are in the role of the misbehaving people who have just decided that they don't like someone. Do you forgive those people and these teachers who have let you down? It depends. Sometimes I'll have teachers who made a genuine mistake. For instance, the drama teacher. I don't have any ill will towards her because I realized that from her perspective, she didn't understand that I was autistic. She didn't understand that I had this sensory processing disorder. She thought that I was just being difficult. And I can see how she thought that because everyone else wasn't having a problem with it and I was the only person who couldn't crawl like a panther but I had no disabilities it wasn't like I'd broken my leg

and that was why to her I was just this able-bodied person who wasn't doing it correctly even though she'd spent hours trying to help me do it. And so she was like, the only reason is because you're not putting in the effort or you have a bad attitude. And so for her, I completely forgive her. And I completely understand how we were just looking at the same situation from two different perspectives. But with this, I look at it and I think, if she'd known everything from my perspective, would she have done the same thing and she would have because throughout the whole time I was at that school I told her I kept her up to date I said you know I'm not seeing the board please can you help me by making this

reasonable adjustment I explained everything the way I'd wished I explained it to my drama teacher and she still didn't listen to me and the reason I'm taking her to disability tribunal is because I really don't want this to happen to somebody else I was very lucky that I was able to take my exam if it hadn't been for my mom signing me up for the Easter revision course it wouldn't have happened and I don't want there to be a situation where there's another autistic student who enters her class and ends up going through what I did and maybe it being worse. Another thing is I didn't realize it at the time, but it was incredibly important that I did get that A in economics because now the government is like they have a kind of algorithm to help figure out what grades you're going to get for A-level. And part of that involves using your AS grades. And so it was very important to me that I was able to take it. And I don't want her viewpoints to stop someone

else from being able to have that opportunity. And just to let people know that you're predicted grades of A-star, A-star, A-star in your maths, further maths and physics A levels. So this is by no means a small thing. We've spoken a lot in this interview about how other people respond to you and whether other people like you or not. But I wonder if I could ask you one of those very annoying journalist questions. Do you like yourself? Yes. I mean, I don't want to sound too like overconfident, but I do. I mean, it's been a massive journey to get here. But a lot of it I've realised can just change overnight. Before I was diagnosed with autism, I just had all this hatred towards myself. And I blamed myself for everything that went wrong. And I felt I'm just so different and I need to change this and there's something wrong with me but then after I was diagnosed there was just this sudden shift of perspective and instead of it

being like there's something wrong with me it's just oh well I've just got a difference and this is who I am and it's okay and there are other people like me who are incredibly successful who I am, and it's okay. And there are other people like me who are incredibly successful. And now when I look at my learning differences, and I look at everything I've gone through and accomplished, I'm proud that I've accomplished things in spite of my challenges. But I'm also proud of my learning differences. Because even though there are times where they create hurdles for me to overcome, there are other times where it makes me the person who I am and it gives me you know these superpowers do you think you would be where you are now were it not for your mother I think that I'd have dropped out of school a long time ago for my mother she has been incredible throughout all of this. She was my advocate when I couldn't advocate for myself.

She made sure to get me diagnosed with all my different learning differences. When I started my neurodiversity movement and my QL mentoring website, I got like a speaking engagement in the middle of nowhere. It was maybe like a 10 engagement in the middle of nowhere it was maybe like a 10 hour drive and she drove me all the way there for like five people to hear me speak and then all the way back and she was like so complimentary of how I'd spoken even though it wasn't that great I was like I had so much anxiety and she got me into that mindset to like try again and to kind of continue with what I was doing. She's been amazing. I don't know what I would do without her.

Can I ask what her name is? Dagmar. Dagmar, what a hero. But more importantly, what an incredible person you are, Sienna. And I know I've asked you about your mother and she sounds terrific but I also have no doubt that you would be this brilliant inspirational young woman that you now are just from the off I just believe that about you and I think you're so inspiring to so many of us and I just can't thank you enough for coming on this podcast and

explaining everything with such beauty and common sense and compassion. How has it been for you? How does it feel discussing failure for you? I think it's very empowering because it helps you kind of realize what you've overcome, but also how much you have to learn and how I know that those aren't going to be my only failures in life. There are other things that are going to come up, but just seeing how I've overcome those makes me think about how I'm going to be able to overcome the challenges that are in the future.

Sienna Castellon, thank you so, so much. Thank you for having me this episode of how to fail with elizabeth day is sponsored by aurelia probiotic skincare which provides intelligent skincare with integrity their probiotic concentrate is a potent probiotic skincare treatment designed to support the skin's natural defenses and to boost your skin's natural production of collagen and hyaluronic acid all the good stuff there are literally hundreds of five-star reviews online that show this product is effective for any skin concern from dullness or aging to rosacea and even acne. It's super easy to incorporate into your regime. You can mix it with your favorite moisturizer or serum or use it alone for a stronger treatment.

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