How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S9, BONUS EPISODE! How to Fail: Jamie Dornan

Episode Date: November 24, 2020

For our second and final bonus episode this season, I bring you the dulcet tones of actor Jamie Dornan. Most recently seen in The Fall (currently on Netflix and BBC iPlayer) playing a serial killer with an incongruously happy family life, Dornan is also well-known for starring as Christian Grey in all three of the Fifty Shades of Grey movie adaptations, which brought him to the worldwide attention of millions.He joins me to talk about failures in acting, failures at school and a failure to sit still. We also discuss growing up in Northern Ireland at the heigh of The Troubles, male objectification, the death of his beloved mother from cancer at the age of 16 and the loss of four friends in a car crash shortly afterwards. We talk about grief, therapy and what it means to be a father. And we talk about why he walks on his tiptoes.I think this one of my favourite ever interviews and I hope it brings you some comfort through these undoubtedly challenging times.How To Fail will be back with a ONE-OFF SUPER SPECIAL MINISERIES at the end of the month, where I’m doing something a bit different…follow @howtofailpod on Instagram or Twitter to be the first in the know! *I have a new book out! Failosophy: A Handbook For When Things Go Wrong contains two-and-bit years worth of accumulated wisdom from my fantastic podcast guests. I'd love it if you bought a copy. Also: they make EXCELLENT gifts imho.*How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted by Elizabeth Day, produced by Naomi Mantin and Chris Sharp. We love hearing from you! To contact us, email [e-mail] You can buy our fantastic PODCAST MERCH here.*Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayHow To Fail @howtofailpod Jamie Dornan: @jamiedornan Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by card, other conditions apply. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and

journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned from failure. The actor Jamie Dornan once said that mass appreciation doesn't always equate to something good. It's true, of course, but this is a man who has had to get used to mass appreciation, whether he likes it or not. Starring as Christian Grey in all three of the Fifty Shades of Grey movie adaptations brought him to the worldwide attention of millions of excitable fans who had devoured the E.L. James books on which the franchise was based. But Dornan has always been a multifaceted actor. In the critically acclaimed BBC drama The Fall, his portrayal of Paul Spector, a serial killer with an incongruously happy family life, was extraordinary both for its chilling nature

and for the way it toyed with our preconceptions. Later, he played photographer Paul Conroy in A Private War, the biopic of the late great war correspondent Marie Colvin. It was, Dornan recalled, the most emotional job I will ever do. He and the real-life Conroy are still friends. Despite his success, Dornan did not start out as an actor. He was born in Hollywood, the one in County Down, and was the third child of Lorna, a nurse, and Jim, one of Ireland's leading obstetricians, a man who has delivered over 6,000 babies. After school in Belfast, Dornan became a model, and a highly successful one at that. The New York Times dubbed him the Golden Torso after he appeared in campaigns for Calvin Klein and Hugo Boss. And yet, Dornan has said in the past that he never had much luck with the girls at school

because he looked too young. His sister's friends called him cute, which he hated. Today, he is married to the musician Amelia Warner, and the couple have three daughters. They live their lives out of the public eye. And when Dornan is recognised back home in Northern Ireland, it is more often than not because someone wants to tell him that his father delivered them. This suits him just fine. As he said in an interview with the Belfast Telegraph in 2014, nobody sane wants to be famous. Jamie Dornan, welcome to How to Fail. Thank you very much. I didn't know where to look there, but I got through the introduction.

You were visibly squirming and you're actually blushing slightly. It's very sweet. Yeah, I mean, I'm not someone who loves hearing praise about themselves, I think. I find it very difficult. I find it, yeah, embarrassing, I think I find it very difficult I find it yeah embarrassing I think embarrassed by praise how sane do you feel today given that quote about you'd have to be insane to want to be famous I feel like often I don't feel very famous I only ever feel famous when I'm somewhere where people know I'm going to be. And there's a response to that, to that understanding of the location, whether that's a premiere or whatever it is for a movie I've done.

And then you see people have come to support you and the fellow cast, whatever it is, the movie itself. And you see a collective of people there for you and a hunger sometimes maybe for you. That's when it's real. and all other times I don't get that I don't feel like that I don't think I put myself in a position to experience that so I usually feel pretty sane because I don't feel that famous. Has it ever got scary your level of fame? No I mean I remember saying I did this interview for like GQ or Details or something before the first Fifty Shades came out.

And they said, what's your biggest fear with the movie coming out? And it was nothing about how it would be received, which we knew would be great for the people who love the book. And the total opposite of that for people who don't understand the book or weren't up for the movies. And that's it was very true to that, the response. But I remember saying I was scared of someone killing me on the red carpet. Wow, that was probably unexpected for the journalist. It was. She was quite taken aback by it. But at that time, I genuinely believed it.

I thought, someone's probably just going to kill me here. It was a dark place to put your mind. But I must have believed it, thought someone's probably just going to kill me here it was this dark place to put your mind but I must have believed it to say it well when you were thinking that was that after you'd played Paul Spector in the fall uh yes so my mind's probably more open to darkness than it had been previously and more accepting and more knowing what people are capable of maybe as a result of playing someone like that that That performance was so phenomenal, Jamie. I loved the fall so, so much. And you mentioned there that idea of going to quite a dark place.

How much research did you do into the mind of a serial killer? Because, as I said in the introduction, one of the fascinating things was that Paul Spector existed as a family man alongside committing these brutal crimes. Yeah. I mean, it's funny you said it there, like in terms of getting inside the mind of a serial killer. The first book I read was called Inside the Mind of a Serial Killer. Alan Cubitt, who created the show, changed my life. He sent me a few different books that he sort of had recommended to read and I read them they're not hugely digestible books I've got to say you know they're tough they're not enjoyable to read

really they're not I couldn't put it down situations you know they're kind of I can't wait to put it down because I want to go to sleep in 10 minutes I don't want to go to sleep with this in my mind but hugely beneficial to trying to build the character and take not all aspects from these particular subjects that they were about and other guys that I've been told to sort of look into beyond those books take bits from them really but build on what Alan had created and what I felt was appropriate to take from what I'd read but make it its own thing you know because every one of these monsters does it their own way. Much of the way Spectre did it was on the page already.

And I think that aspect of it, that fact that he was a grief counsellor by day and, you know, this strong, you know, family man. Alan and I argued about this. I always felt that he did have love for his kids, particularly his daughter there's a special bond there Alan and he probably right because he created it only he really knows but he felt that Spectre was incapable of love but um I always tried to insert love into

those scenes with with the kids and I think that's what made it all the darker you know was seeing that juxtaposition between the loving family man and the serial killer I think that's what made it all the darker you know was seeing that juxtaposition between the loving family man and the serial killer I think that's what made it hard to watch for people you're surrounded by women in your life aren't you from you know from birth to right this day I've only been surrounded by women at home what's it like being the father to three daughters because I often wonder how much of what we stereotypically think of wrongly as sort of girl stuff and boy stuff is innate sure listen I wouldn't have a clue how to parent a boy I just wouldn't it's not what I know all I know is three little magical beings that we

share our home with that fuel our every move and there's been times where one kid particularly our eldest has been leaning more towards a sort of tomboyish attitude and been into things that you wouldn't classically expect a girl to be into maybe and that got me thinking that well you really is like they're shaped into you know being into girls things and boys things maybe it's not innate but then that ends up just being a bit of a phase I think I can only speak for my own kids and then they up do fall in line with what's kind of expected of little girls a little bit I mean the eldest would be less so I mean the youngest we don't really know yet but the middle one is definitely more girly in a sort of classic sense, a sort of terrible phrase, than the elder one.

But society is so much, no matter how much we try to change the sort of goalposts in terms of like trying to tell people they're one gender, the next, we're miles off it not affecting kids. You know, it's still everything is pink and blue. As much as we try in our own home to not advocate that, we can't control everything they see and hear. And when they're at school and at playdates or wherever it is, or watching TV, that influence is beyond our control a lot of the time, you know. I feel like I'm here to be a father to girls. I feel like that's my calling, you know.

Oh, that's such a lovely thing to say that's just what I have and I feel like it is meant I do I feel like I'm meant to be a daddy to those three wee girls tell me a bit about how you feel on failure generally and then we will get onto your specific failures but is it something that you've always embraced or that you found quite difficult to confront? I think probably as I've got older, being more capable of dealing with it, kind of like everything in life, the older you get, the more capable you become.

Learning along the way, I guess, is part of that. I'm a believer in that with failure, you know, you're sort of nothing without your failures. And there's nobody who gets to any kind of considered high position or impressive position from the outside looking in who hasn't failed massively it builds us it makes us it colors us and it's essential and I I think I wear my failures like a badge of honor a little bit because there's so fucking many of them you know particularly as an actor you know there just is

you know there's very few people who fresh out of the blocks just get a great gig I mean funnily enough my first ever job was a brilliant gig and then you realize that it's actually not really like that and then you fail a lot in between but it stands you in way better stead for when good things do eventually happen and sometimes they don't happen. I have a career where vast majority, I don't want to say fail, but like maybe don't get to continue on that path because of lack of work. There's horrible statistics about actors. At any given moment, there's only like four or 5% employed.

There's none employed at the moment during lockdown lockdown I struggle sort of how to judge failure some people especially in my game where there's people who maybe consider their career failure because they're always striving to have the same career someone else or better career than someone else or when they left drama school or whatever it is they thought they'd have a certain career and they don't but they have a career and they put food on the table and they provide and they have a mortgage and all the things that people strive for but in their head it's a failure because they expected something else of themselves but from the outside looking in people are like you're a huge success you know you're never wanting to work you can provide but everyone's version of success is personal to them I think so everyone's failure

is personal to them you're so right and everyone's failure is personal to them. You're so right. And our expectations and how we express them to ourselves and our internal narrative, that's the key to being happier. I think managing expectation so that you're not feeling disappointed when you don't reach it is the key. But do you regret any of your fashion failures, Jamie? I only ask. Why so?

Do you regret any of your fashion failures, Jamie? Listen. I only ask. Why so? Because there are quite a few paparazzi photos of you from the early days of your career when you were dating Keira Knightley, who I'm obsessed with, and you were wearing sort of seatbelt belts

and kind of baggy jeans and Vans trainers. Listen, I don't like you putting an S and making belts plural because I have one seatbelt belt. It's very infamous. I have a stylist I work with when I'm doing stuff, Jean Yang, who's a magician, amazing woman. And she is based out in LA

and she styles me when I have press and stuff to do these days. And she brings up that green belt so often. It's hard to defend the indefensible. It wasn't glaringly bad at that time, I don't think, that belt. She brings up that green belt so often. It's hard to defend the indefensible. It wasn't glaringly bad at that time, I don't think, that belt. Am I allowed to talk about another podcast on this podcast? I don't know, only if you criticise it. No, I'm kidding.

Of course you're allowed. Of course you're allowed. My wife obviously listens to your podcast, but she also listens to The Hilo, which I've listened to a bit myself. And I know those girls have, many of them just come in sometimes chuckling and say, yeah, they brought you up and they were sort of digging through old paparazzi, which you're about to do right in front of me now,

which is dreadful. Seatbelt belt. I actually had a seatbelt belt. So you're okay. You're in good company. I remember being delighted with myself when I bought that in Camden one day. Because also you wore baggy trousers then,

like baggy, big, dreadful looking jeans. Levi's Twisted, I remember buying those thinking they were class. And they really, really weren't. I remember being with Kira one day and we were walking through Camden and they were genuinely falling off my arse, which is kind of how I wore them anyway. But it was to a point where, I mean, it was like I needed help. And there, you know, shining in the sunlight was this green awful shade of green seat belt belt and I thought bingo here we go that'll do the job not only will it serve a purpose I'll look great turns out I didn't it's a bit like when you were talking about how fatherhood is your meaning

like that seat belt was you were destined the two of you to find each other yeah yeah I think so I mean I was pretty delighted when I lost it I have to say I don't know where what became of it that's one of those things you probably give to charity shop and they don't even put out on their stall they're probably just saying no listen no one's gonna want that you said in past interviews that Keira Knightley gave you very good advice on how to handle fame. Not great fashion advice, but she did tell you, I think, to keep your childhood friends close. Yeah, and Keira was good at that and still is very close with Bunny, who's her best friend from school. She had a nightmare time of it when we were kids when we met.

She was literally 18, I was 21 when we met and it was 17 years ago now she's just got an awful time of it you know paparazzi were horrendous and you know it really was that every single day leaving her apartment or my apartment and hiding in bushes and all that sort of stuff it was kind of gross it wasn't kind of gross it was really really gross and invasive and not fun for young very very young people to be going through for anyone to be going through really but particularly vulnerable 18 year old girl who's only trying to work out the world you know and then you've got to deal with that every day I didn't have that issue I have to say because I have always had the same group of mates from school I just had then I still have the same group now mostly boys and a few girls from school that I'm just are sort of everything to me really

so I'm very lucky and fortunate in that way. Hi I'm Matt Lewis historian and host of a new chapter of Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit. Join me and world-leading experts every week as we explore the incredible real-life history that inspires the locations, the characters, and the storylines of Assassin's Creed. Listen and follow Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit,

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your podcasts. Watch new episodes on YouTube or listen to Let Me Say This ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Talking of school, that brings us on to your first failure, which is your failure to do that well at school. And fun fact, we both went to the same school.

Yes. and fun fact we both went to the same school although I am older than you so I don't think we ever coincided because I left in the third year but you went to school in Methody in Belfast so tell me what happened about at school I don't look back in school and think that it was a failure because when I was at school I felt that I was there to gain friends and play sport and sort of come out the other side with this sense of being part of a group and having a structure of friends in my life. I was very aware of that at school. I really felt like I should be, I want to be like friends with everyone. And it wasn't even to be popular. It was just to actually have friendship and probably particularly boys because I have two sisters and I was always sort of longing

for brothers basically not that listen I love my sisters are brilliant but you do there's a part of you that always thinks if you've only got one sex siblings of like what would it be like to have the other I really wasn't at school in my head to get an education. That was just not, it's terrible. And I tell my kids very differently now as a parent, but I didn't see it as school being about that. As much as my parents tried to drill into me that that's very much what school is meant to be about, I didn't see it that way.

And as a result, I did no work. I really mean that in the truest sense of the word, no work. I really didn't. I don't say that with any pride at all. As I said before, it's not a message I will pass on to my kids. But you know, when it came to like revision for stuff and your mates would always be like, yeah, I've done nothing.

Yeah, absolutely. I've just done nothing. I'm not ready for this exam at all. And I'd be going, no, I've done nothing. And they'd be like, yeah, no, me too. No, no, I'm serious. I've literally, literally done nothing. I'm not ready for this exam at all. And I'd be going, no, I've done nothing. And they'd be, yeah, no, me too. No, no, I'm serious. I've literally, literally done nothing. I haven't opened a book.

You know, if I've had study time, my dad comes in to check an hour later to make sure, you know, I was literally like sort of making, you know, study graphs and coloring stuff in and, you know, mucking about in my Game Boy or something, you know, just anything but revision. And the proof was in the pudding a wee bit like I didn't do very well in my exams and all my friends who said they hadn't done work but actually had done did a bit better than me and then everyone else who worked very

hard did a lot better than me I also had an issue with school about how exams were like I always felt like it was kind of just a memory test a lot of the time you're being prepped for the particular questions that were going to come up sometimes the exact questions that were going to come up and the teacher would kind of have a sense of what it was going to be even for the state exams not even for the in school like the mocks and stuff by the way which is an easy way like I could have just learned those answers and done the work and memorized stuff you see the relief of people and they open their exam paper and they'll be like oh yeah it came up I would never even have that relief because I wouldn't even have bothered to

learn and revise and remember all this stuff and like I didn't do terribly at school like I did enough to pass my GCSEs I did enough to come back from my A-levels just with a bit of negotiating here and there but I struggled with the sort of structure of our school and I felt that I would have potentially done better in a different school where whatever strengths that I had were harnessed a wee bit differently I have a lot of good things to say about Methi because as I say I've still got all my best mates in the world from that school and from a couple other schools in Belfast but friends from when I was a kid but that whole structure of it with the sort of donning the big black capes and the silly hats and putting this massive blockage between students and the teachers and making them so unapproachable and terrifying I just don't think that's the way a school should be and I understand that that comes

from trying to insert respect into kids so that you will respect these people who are in charge of you and you respect your elders and stuff it actually makes me do the opposite you'd have my respect if you smiled at me and knew my name and were wearing normal fucking clothes and not some fucking sinister black cape. Do you know what I mean? Like, I just, I've always really struggled with that, you know? And even when we, early days, when we were going to see some schools for our eldest,

we were to see this school and the headmaster was saying, you know, we're very relaxed here, you know, the kids, it's all first name terms. I'm saying all the right things I want to hear. And I said something along those lines of like, I've always found it very strange with that sort of us and them thing that teachers put at my school very much so that like you know I don't know how to say it really because I am I did have a good time at school but I it sounds like you which is interesting because I wouldn't initially have thought this about you but like you were a bit of a rebel I wouldn't say

I was a rebel I was sort of maybe trying to get to that like I wasn't initially have thought this about you, but like you were a bit of a rebel. I wouldn't say I was a rebel. I was sort of maybe trying to get to that. Like I wasn't badly behaved at school, but I did struggle with a lot of the sort of conforming at school and that whole thing of like, if one of those teachers, the headmaster, the vice headmaster, whatever it is, headmistress was walking down the corridor, like they were so on you about your shirt being like an inch untucked or, you know, something, your collar being up a little bit because you've sort of thrown it on after PE class or whatever. So if you saw one of those teachers walking down the corridor, you were terrified. That shouldn't be the case. You shouldn't be terrified of your teachers.

I feel like I was always on my shirt untucked or whatever. So I wasn't a bad person, but I struggled with that sort of conforming to the rules that that particular school set for me and in the way they studied and the way you're harnessed in class because I didn't think I was stupid but I felt like I was made to feel as stupid quite a lot at that school and the school I went to and you went to was very much like you're either going to be a doctor a lawyer or you're going to work in business. And there was really genuinely nothing else talked about. That was just the way it was and maybe slightly about the time it was too. But if you sort of uttered the idea of doing anything outside of those three vocations, you're kind of laughed out of the room.

You just weren't listened to. Not that I was sitting there going, I want to be an actor. I really didn't think that. I want to be the golden torso. I want to be that. That's a massive aim for a kid from Belfast. I want to be an actor I really didn't think that I want to be the golden torso I want to be that you know that's a that's a massive aim for for a kid from Belfast I want to be the golden torso it's not as if I get it but I never felt stupid but I felt that I had something to give that maybe could have been harnessed better or seen maybe by teachers and

stuff you know so interesting talking to you about it because I had forgotten how terrifying Methodie was from that perspective my memory of it was very much I need to do well at exams to get approval yeah and that was a kind of habit that shaped the rest of my life in quite a negative way because I thought if I just work hard I'll get approval and that will make me feel better about myself and obviously that never really happened my memory was much more because I've always spoken with this English accent that I didn't feel included or welcomed at all in my peer group so actually Methodie for me was not about friends at all it was about feeling really isolated and sad and probably terrified as you say because it was so regimented if we could switch your experience with my experience

or we could combine the two if use them yeah it'd be like i mean they'd be delighted with us would be like the perfect product that they've created the exam side of, my mother died just after my GCSEs, and then four of my best mates were killed in a car accident all from my year at school. The following summer, I wasn't in a great place, I've got to say, in my head. And that's when I was talking about we had these negotiations. I'd done okay in my GCSEs, but my mum was dying the whole way through, and I wasn't doing any work anyway. But that had sort of become this other huge factor but my mum was dying the whole way through and I wasn't and I wasn't doing any work anyway but that

had sort of become this like other huge factor when it came to working out what I would do next in terms of A-levels and stuff and we came to this deal that I would stay at school do my A-levels at Methodie but I'd board for two years we had a boarding department it's actually quite good if you've gone through school your whole school life as a day pupil and there's a boarding department at that school you're always fascinated by what goes on in there you know when they go behind that wee door what happens down there like it's just a whole other world that you just aren't privy to so you get to do that once you're a bit more assured of yourself and you're 16 17 18 and you're probably at the right end of the totem pole in terms of what happens in boarding and the

bullying that goes on in every boarding school probably and I played rugby and stuff and that was like help but in boarding to go in and be in the rugby team you knew you weren't going to get messed about to be honest so I didn't do well I was about to say I did okay I didn't do well I got CDE I think but I got enough to get into a university that I didn't want to go to but I was sort of forced to go not forced to go to but like it just seemed like the done thing like what we're saying about that type of school is like you chose the right a levels to stay in the same path to get to this certain goal which always struck me as quite a boring goal and the only thing I ever ever knew about myself growing up was that I didn't want to work in an office it's the only thing I've ever truly known about

myself I just don't have the right patience aptitude I don't really know how to categorize it but I just knew that I didn't want to do that I'm not saying that means I wanted to be an actor or anything else frivolous as that but I knew that I didn't want to do that and all of these things I was being led towards were kind of pushing me in that direction so I didn't do very well my levels and then I went to uni that I kind of only went to because I got in to do a marketing degree and absolutely no interest you know my school would have been kind of happy with that because it's something that could end in a sort of relatively serious job and the whole time I felt like I was sort of doing making those decisions

against my will I guess this sort of comes back to in terms of why I think it ended up being good for me sort of failing at school is had worked, had I really taken those exams seriously, those mock exams, those, your GCSEs, your A-levels, I mean, even A-levels, I swear to God, I'm not doing it to sound, it's not even cool, even if I didn't do any work for my A-levels, nothing, I mean, literally nothing. Went went to uni I went to nine hours of uni five of them in freshers week so then I spent eight months and I went to four hours of university in eight months I played rugby four days a week and drank a lot I had a good time I've got to say but I knew I wasn't on the right path had I done better in my A-levels and then gone to uni and

done a course I really wanted to do and done very well well, and come out with a good degree, I'd be on a very different path, and I just wouldn't be happy. So actually that failure at school, for me, not for everyone obviously, but for me, worked to my favour in a really big way. So I want to come back to what happened next, but I just want to pause and acknowledge what you went through as a 16 year old with your mother dying and then your four friends die in a car crash and I'm so so sorry and how do you deal with that grief at that age I had counselling very open to admit that I didn't actually until the accident, I don't think, which is 13 months after my mum had died,

which had a huge impact on, well, the entire country, really. It was a very big, horrific event, but particularly, you know, my friendship group, obviously. And that's not true. I had had a bit of counselling after mum died before that, and then that happened and I had more counselling you don't really have a clue you sort of don't have a clue what's going on in the world anyway when you're 16 17 and it's a lot of change happening at that time in your life and a lot of very big decisions are being made about your future at that age and

weirdly in a way maybe not being able to totally focus on that in a way that other kids may have been was a benefit to me in hindsight if you're trying to claw to take any kind of positive out of such a horrendous situation but it was so bleak clearly and affects you every day I mean actually I've had a very tearful week honestly about my mum particularly I'm writing a script at the moment and we've just finished the first draft and now going through it and second drafting I'm writing it with a very friend of mine and we are two main sort of protagonists in the movie are kids who've lost their parents and when they're teenagers and so much

of it I haven't even been accepting of the fact that that happened to me it's really weird and then I'll finish a day and I'm like writing about these kids talking to each other trying to help each other through what that grief must be like and I've been sort of blanking it I guess as some sort of defense mechanism probably and then feeling sort of bereft at the end of the day and my writing partner will see it he'll be like you've got to stop and I'll be yeah okay and then feeling sort of bereft at the end of the day and my writing partner will see it he'll be like you've got to stop and I'll be yeah okay and then I'll like cry for an hour it's been the maddest experience but also quite cathartic and good you know ultimately I think I don't want to upset you further but I also I'm aware that when people lose someone and they're in the public eye that they often get

asked about the experience of that loss for them and what happened afterwards but I just wanted to offer a chance for you to say what your mum was like you see I mean she was incredible I mean very beautiful like truly beautiful looking arrestingly beautiful looking woman an amazing smile very quick-witted incredibly glamorous you know my mom's from a farm in Portadown but you wouldn't know it talking to my whole family like my sister signed very different to me and my mom did too my dad sort of inherited this slightly posh accent thing. And my mum really, considering she grew up in Portadown, I mean, she really got far away from Portadown, her accent.

But it was all part of the way she carried herself and the sort of glamour that she had. It's a very odd thing and not a very nice thing to have to admit that there's many aspects of my mum that I don't remember, truly just don't have a very strong recollection. And I use my sisters a lot and my dad to try to build on the memories I have of mum because they're fleeting for me, to be honest.

And this is in a time, you know, mum died in 98. It's before you filmed absolutely everything on your phone. And, you know, there's not a huge amount of documentary footage, let's say, of my mum. And I love it when something does come into my mind. I'll get this little nugget that comes into my mind of something I had forgotten that my sister will mention to me or something.

And I love that and then I try to harness that as best I can, make sure I don't forget that again. My dad's very proud and loves the line of work I've fallen into and everything. But my mum would have really got a serious kick out of it. 1998 then was a time of extraordinary transition and grief for you personally. And politically, a lot happened in Northern Ireland. They signed the Good Friday Agreement. I know what it was like living there then,

but I would love to know what your experience was of going to school in Belfast and how aware you were of what is diminishingly referred to as the Troubles. Yeah. Funny, isn't it, how meek that makes it sound, the Troubles. I've never shied away from how middle class my upbringing was it was about as middle class as you can get in the north of Ireland but in the same breath you're growing up in Belfast and you're in school in the middle of Belfast and there's no one who grew up

or lived in that country during those times who who wasn't affected by the troubles, no matter what your situation was. Even things like how normal, trying to plan to go into town, obviously before mobile phones and stuff, on a Saturday, we always met outside McDonald's in the centre of town, just to wander around on a Saturday afternoon. And they might have times you'd phone the house phone of your friend because you'd seen on the news there was a bomb scare. I mean, that was kind of in my head every weekend I guess did you see the yeah there's a there's a bomb scare there so not going into town today I mean the idea of that now

honestly how commonplace that sentence was and you know my dad worked at the Royal his whole life which is you know on the Falls Road in West Belfast and delivered as you said at the Royal his whole life, which is on the Falls Road in West Belfast, and delivered, as you said, at the start of this, over 6,000 babies in Northern Ireland. That's not 6,000 Catholic babies, 6,000 Protestant babies. That is a real mix of everything. So I feel like I was brought up in a very liberal household where religion was very rarely mentioned. And we sort of went to church a little bit in the beginning of our lives I don't think I went after the age of seven and I think it was only as talking

to dad now that it was only because my mum and my dad's parents were very religious and it was sort of keeping up appearances with them still around that we kept that up and I never grew up feeling like I was on one side or the other I didn't understand it and actually a very good thing about methody was it was very mixed when most people people here are in England or anywhere else they hear mixed I think you mean boy girl but it was very mixed Catholic Protestant at methody and many other denominations which was a great thing if I think of my best mates from school, we're, I mean, literally 50-50, probably slightly edging more Catholic.

And we all grew up in a generation where you wanted to distance yourself from even that, even knowing what each other are, you know. But truth be told, it's still totally divided countries. Only 3% of schools are mixed, segregated. And there's still areas that Catholics will never live in and areas Protestants will never live in, particularly only really in the working class areas. So as much as the Good Friday Agreement was a

huge thing, and obviously it's been an incredible marking for the country, there's still deep division there, and it's a very complicated place. It's so interesting to hear you talk about religion, because I remember I ended up going to school in England, and I remember the first time I heard classmates talking openly about what religion they were. And I was so shocked because in the north of Ireland, it carried such tribal profundity. Like you would never speak openly about it for fear of something happening. I totally relate to that. And you're right that Methodie was mixed.

But I remember at Methodieody because i was a weekly boarder and i would walk to the bus station to get the bus back home on a saturday and i would walk past europa hotel which is infamous for being the most bombed hotel in europe and i remember this one time there'd been a bomb the night before every single window had shattered of the europa hotel and there were just these hulking metal warped unrecognizable messes that had been cars and that was just normal yeah sure I know my god I know it is not like it is one of those things like when you not again with people particularly in the states when you say where you're from they're like oh my god like how did you get out alive? And if you see like imagery now of what was our normal news,

it blows your mind. I mean, it really does. You cannot believe what you're seeing, the rioting and police didn't drive normal cars. They drove those things they called meat wagons. There was big armored Land Rovers and just people petrol bombing each other over sort of barricades.

And it was, you didn't blink. you didn't blink watching that in the 90s and 80s and 90s from the time that I remember it was just so normal and now you realize how crazy it was yeah you know and how much impact it has I'm really bad at timekeeping but I'm just so fascinated by everything that you're saying that I'm so sorry we've only just done one failure but let's move on to your this is how you write it failure to be very good in a tv show called once upon a time resulting in being killed after after nine episodes before we get to that tell us how you got into acting because your lovely sister Jess who is basically how we've organized this podcast who I know a bit and I'm so grateful to her she claims that it's all because of her and she got you into model behavior at channel 4 reality tv show right yes I yeah let's let's give her the due credit

there she did I'd acted at school I'd done a bit of youth theatre back home too I'd done a bit of am dram at home too so it's not like it was alien to me at school by the time it came to sixth year you couldn't be active in the drama department and also play rugby at a particular level because rehearsals for plays were at the same time as training basically for rugby so I did drama GCSE and I'd done all the productions up until that point then when it came to year, I basically had a choice and I chose rugby. I don't regret that for a second, the time of my life playing rugby. But it meant that I sort of hadn't really featured in my sort of late teens in any sort of dramatic sense. But I'd always loved it and knew I could do it a bit. I knew I had something in me to give in that department, let's say.

bit I knew I had something in me to give in that department let's say and when I dropped out of uni after a year and I said to my dad I want to go to London he says why I said I don't really know I had this belief that something good would happen if I went to London so I sort of convinced my dad to let me go and I secured a job in a pub before I went there I knew had this job, this bar called Tattersall's Tavern in Nightbridge, which I believe is still there. And I worked there for six months. In that summer that I dropped out of uni, my dad just wanted me to do anything, like anything that was constructive. At a low point one day he came back and I drank a lot that summer

and didn't achieve a lot, I have to say. And one day I de-strung, I'd taken all the strings out of a tennis racket that I'd broken a string on hadn't re-strung it I'd just taken all the strings out and dad was like what'd you do today and I was just standing holding this tennis racket with a hole in it saying I took all the strings out of this I was thinking of getting it and then he sort of took me away for a chat he called me a waster actually I remember very clearly he said I was a waster and I didn't disagree with him I was a waster that I didn't disagree with him I was a waster that summer I was really achieving nothing very evident to the rest of my family that I was

wasting everything away not everything away it's not like I had anything to waste but like I was just not achieving anything and Jess my sister was just scrabbling around was Lisa my other sister just trying to help me like find some motivation and Jess saw this ad for like some sort of open casting for some this is very early days of even I mean I've sort of never even thought of that as a reality tv show but I guess it was but I just did so badly in it I guess that's another failure that I didn't get to the point where it felt like a reality tv show so I went to this audition to do this thing model behavior last thing in the world i want to do is model i mean no kid grows up maybe they do now certainly i didn't i wasn't a kid growing up in belfast going i'd love

to get my photograph taken for money but anyway it was something to do and i convinced my mate andrew hazard to come with me so i'm gonna give hazard a bit of credit here because jess had told me to go it was at the welly park hotel which is beside Methody on the Malone Road and on the way there I called him and it was like we had to be there at 9am which in those days was so early now that I've got three kids that is a massive lie in but then it was so early and I called him at like 8.45 I said I'll pick you up in 10 minutes no I'm not coming and I mean please like my sister's gonna kill me if I don't go to this thing I don't want to go mate I don't want to go I'm not gonna I'm still sleeping I said right I was like fuck it I'm gonna turn around and just go home and like

fuck this like it's this point who wants to be a model anyway and then there's something in me it's like I heard my sister's you know my dad calling me a waster it's like it was something to fill the day even if I just said to that oh I went to that thing and you know, my dad calling me a waster. It was something to fill the day, even if I just said to dad, oh, I went to that thing, and I filled the day, dad, doing that. I remember I was like, I'm going to turn back, and then I thought, I'm going to give Hazard one more go. I called him back, said, mate, you actually really need to do this for me. My family are going to kill me if I don't turn up to this thing.

He said, all right, okay, pick me up in five minutes. So I did, I picked him up, and had he said no again, I really genuinely turned around. Anyway, long story short, went, did all right. so I did I picked him up and had he said no again I really genuinely turned around anyway long story short went did all right I got through the Belfast part of it which greatest of respect isn't a huge achievement and got through to by the way Hazard didn't get didn't make it through the next day and he came back the next day and then the whole thing was they whittled you down and they picked like six people from Ireland there wasn't one in Dublin so this was the all Ireland round or

whatever so there's a few dubs up and stuff and it ended up being a few dubs and a few people from the north that all went to London right and that was the whole thing you went to London and there was like people from Manchester and Birmingham and Glasgow and like this and there was probably 40 of us and they whittled that down to 20 and then to 10 and And those 10 people then lived in an apartment together and went out on castings together. So I got nowhere near. I got half a day in London or something and was booted out. But I was very tenacious, I guess. And I don't really remember having this in me.

But I remember taking the email of one of the judges, Kim Von Dickman, who was one of the judges, who's also an agent at Select. And I said, listen, do you think I could do this? And she was kind of like, you know, basically call us if you ever come to London. And I took that as like, oh, wow, they want me to go to London and be a model. And my dad will be happy because it's something. So then I knew it wouldn't be something straight away.

And there was all this contractual stuff that I couldn't do it right away because I'd been part of the show and they had to wait for there to be a winner before you got a contract with Select and all this bollocks. So I went back home and said, look, dad, I think if I can get myself a job in a pub, I have this contact now, this modeling agency, I could probably do that. And fair play to him.

Like he agreed to let me do that. So basically if I hadn't done that, that wouldn't have led to being an actor. So, you know, if I hadn't made that, that wouldn't have led to being an actor. So if I hadn't made that first step, Jessica hadn't suggested it. If Hazard hadn't answered the phone, I wouldn't be sat here, basically. And if you hadn't been good-looking enough, did you think you were good-looking?

No way. No, no, no. I thought I looked like... I've said this before. I still think this, that I look like a thumb. If I don't have a beard, I look like a wee thumb, I think. So, no. I'd never been led to believe that I was good-looking at that stage. And when you started getting all these shoots and campaigns

for Dior, Om and Calvin Klein, did you then think, I'm good-looking, or did it not percolate for me I never felt that I was the best looking guy and that's why I was getting these jobs it's all about like having the right look for the time or whatever it is but also for me I think and it's it harks back to what I was saying about school and like people at the top of every industry from every kind of industry you can think of they're just people and they want good conversation and they respond to other human beings I feel like my biggest asset was like I tend to get on pretty well with people which is you know away from what school is trying to tell us of like important people are out of reach you can't talk to them like they're humans you can and I don't care what

reputation this photographer I've been told I'm working with and how you know I'm like he's just a fucking person and he just talked and I feel like my modeling career I did inordinately well in it and I didn't expect to but I think a lot of that was down to I worked with a lot of the same people a lot repetitively big photographers the same fashion house I was had the same sort of campaigns with the same two or three very big clients but it was all because by that stage I've just got on well with the people and they know you, so they know what you're getting rather than like, oh, he's the best person for the job. That's not what it was about. Sorry, I keep getting distracted by tangents, but there's so much I want to ask you.

Did you or do you ever feel objectified? Oh, I, yeah. Yeah, definitely. Not now, probably so much, but certainly when I was modelling, yeah. Yeah. Because that's exactly what's happening. You are being objectified, you are an object. And again, that's why I was always sort of battling against that

and trying to make it not that and not like, you're this thing we've hired to look pretty lying on a fucking sofa. Do you know what I mean? I would probably be like, oh oh no can we not have this experience where we all talk and you don't just tell me where to put my face and push me around the place I guess it is a lot of time in that world I always just tried to sort of make it fun because I didn't like it I today I hate getting my photograph taken I'm very uncomfortable with it and I wasn't a good model I did well from it but I wasn't good at it, I don't think. And the whole Fifty Shades of Grey thing,

and the idea that you are countless women's and men's heartthrob, like that if we still had posters, there would be posters of you blue-tacked up on sort of teenage girls' bedroom walls and all that sort of stuff. How does that sit with you? Because that's also objectification any actor whatever's putting themselves in opposition I guess like that happened you know my sister screw up pictures of Johnny Depp on their wall and that's just Brad Pitt for me Brad Pitt yeah

I mean I had I had some Ulster rugby players on my wall and then I had like a black and white black and white picture of Liv Tyler that I used to kiss before I went to sleep every night oh my god that was so sweet and I was once with someone listen I was once with someone who knew that story and she was a friend of hers and she goes Jamie get on the phone here and I was like she put me on the phone to fucking Liv Tyler and she's like oh my god I heard your story and you used to kiss me. I was like, oh, fuck this. No idea what to say to her. Yeah, I mean, objectification is sadly a bit of a part that comes with the territory, I think.

Okay, now tell me about Once Upon a Time, the TV show. Have you ever seen Once Upon a Time? Okay, I should have been a really good interviewer and watched it, but I haven't ever seen it. I'm sorry. So listen, I guess I was at a point in my career where my first ever job I did, my first ever audition, I had an agent for five days and my first ever audition was for Sofia Coppola's Marie Antoinette

and I got it. And it was a decent part, like not a huge part, but like quite integral to the whole thing. And I remember thinking, fuck, this is mad. Like just like straight off the bat, I've got this great job.

Sofia literally just won an Academy Award for loss and translation. much hype about the movie it's a big studio movie at Sony and I was like this is class cut to you know barely working for the next of eight years but in that time I was modeling so I had this kind of koosty situation of being able to afford to not be devastated if I didn't audition single my way which were so so many and I hadn't worked in a while I was feeling a bit low about it I was thinking I maybe just didn't really want to do it anymore you know I had this very good representation you know I was like with the best agent in London I was a CA in LA and like on paper it looked like I was so set but I wasn't working and I was out there for pilot season which is a pretty grim

environment to spend time in which is just like you know herded around like cattle in LA trying to score any gig and it's such a strange thing because you can get a pilot and just be delighted because it's guaranteed money it might not even get picked up but you sign your life away for five years and then sometimes you get these people who do book one of those pilots and the does run for five years and it's a horror show of a production and they're locked in and actually they're better than that or whatever it is and you get george cluny did nine pilots that didn't get picked up and that's nine years of your life because you can't sign up to more than one pilot so it's a horrible environment and everyone you're all sitting in the room together a load of guys who look almost identical to you all trying to achieve the same thing and I was out there for pilot season you're

always depressed during pilot season anyway and I was out there and to stave off the depression I brought my girlfriend at the time with me who's now my wife I was like listen will you come out and be there with me because I just will need you to get through this I also proposed to her out then in LA in that time which made everything better where did you propose and our franchise in LA where we met uh did you get down in one knee I did I did the whole shebang you know but I was out in LA and I hadn't really been doing very well with the auditions I hate auditioning I'm a terrible auditioner and I suddenly got this call that, like, I had to audition for this thing once upon a time

that there was a lot of hype about. It was the sort of pilot that everyone wanted to book. It was ABC production. It was Eddie Kitsis and Adam Horowitz, who were two of the main writers on Lost. There was a lot of, like, hype about it. And I basically got it and was truly under the belief that it had changed my life.

And it did. And I feel like it did at a time where I really hadn't worked in a long time and I was on the show that everyone would be on so I came back shot the pilot in Vancouver I came back and then you've got this sort of horrible two three month wait to find out does the pilot get picked up and you've signed on to be in it for five or six seven years I can't remember what it was and I got a phone call that the pilot had been picked up I was like oh my god brilliant here we go happy days getting paid a load of money to be in this show

that is a big network show. My agent was like, the show's been picked up, but they're going to kill your character off pretty early. I was like, right, okay. They tried to spin it that it was like a story thing, they were always going to kill one of the characters off because that sort of happens in shows. I now know that it was probably just bollocks you know they test the shit out of those pilots they'll test audience them and I think probably everyone was like get rid of that dude

and I actually always felt very uncomfortable in the role I felt like I wasn't this guy I sort of didn't really ever really know what to do with it couldn't really hang my hat on anything with him I don't know why so I felt I wasn't very good in it so then I had this strange thing of like having to go back and shoot eight more episodes but knowing it was going to be over for me and really truly believing that my world had kind of ended I remember going out my flatmate Jonesy at the time it was his wee brother's birthday we're going for pints in Notting Hill somewhere I remember I was like I don't think I can go and like sitting with Millie and like crying and being like I can't i can't see people i'm so embarrassed by it all because everyone's going to be like what's happening with your show has it got picked up are you going are you moving

to vancouver and i was going to have to be like yeah i'm going but i'm you know won't be going for as long as i thought maybe anyway cut to i get killed off and then the fall comes my way and i just if i would i would have been on that show for seven years. I wouldn't have been able to do the fall. So actually, again, it's a failure that ended up being the best thing that ever happened to me. But at the time, I would never have believed you if you'd said that. So two things there. One is thank you so much for talking honestly about what it's like to be an actor who fails.

Because I think a lot of actors listen to this podcast, which I'm very grateful for, and it's super helpful, I think, to hear that, to hear about the other side of fame and glitz and success, that actually there is all this stuff that I imagine is very difficult not to take personally, because it's you that's being judged at the end of the day. Once you get over that, that's huge. I think my sister told you, I nearly wrote that one of my failures was not being

as eloquent as Daisy Edgar Jones um I listened to her with you and she's not like 22 or something I think she just turned 22 right stop stop she's amazing and I just could never spoken about what we do with such poise and decorum as she does and and elegance, I still can't, clearly, as I ramble on here. I like that too. I like hearing when other actors... Because it's brutal. It's really tough. Like, it's really tough.

And I feel so fortunate to be in the position I am now and have a choice over the work I do and have lots of work come my way because I've been there. I've been at the other side of it where that isn't the case. And it really challenges your idea of your own self-worth. If you've really committed to doing something and that thing isn't working out for you, you really question yourself, you know.

The second thing I wanted to say is that I know that you are an atheist. At least that's what Wikipedia said, so I'm hoping it's correct. Yeah, I mean, I guess I lean more towards agnostic now i don't know kind of why but in the last few years i've maybe been more towards that slightly softer version one of the things i was going to ask you which i guess might explain some of that is that a couple of times you've said stuff that makes me feel that you believe in destiny that you were destined to be a father of your three girls that actually being killed off and once upon a time led you to the fall yeah is that accurate do you think yeah but I just wouldn't staple any of that to

religion yeah probably for me personally you know it's like those little snippets of that you pick up along the way and like someone just once said to me that saying of what's for you won't pass you by and there's certain things you hear and that just really has stuck with me and it makes all your feelings of which there have been many and will continue to be many way more palatable and digestible you know and listen I've had that with jobs you know the jobs where I've turned down and they've become like the biggest hit the fucking year and I'm like shit should I've done that and then but something else comes along that you wouldn't have been able to do you know and I think you have to apply that to the vocation that I'm in I sort of believe that you're on a bit of

a path these challenges are put in your way are these great things that happen that are all sort of for you based on that thing that like if it's not for you it won't land in your lap type thing I feel like I don't consider it too much I don't look into it too much once that event happens like once I do have three girls or once I do get this job because I didn't do well in that job I'm very accepting of it and I then sort of tell myself that it was kind of like all part of the plan and I'm maybe aware that there's a bit of a path but I'm not like really zeroed in on it and I don't talk about it a lot yeah I think that makes total sense that you can choose to attach meaning to something retrospectively I mean that's definitely the way that I choose to live because otherwise sadness would happen for no reason yeah and then you'd also

just be inside your head too much and I always try not to be really heady and I'm always trying to get outside of my own head and actually having kids is the best thing for that and it's the best thing for that through lockdown particularly three months of that having a focus that isn't going on based purely on what's good for you works for me you know I need that if I spend too much time in my own head I get freaked out I know it's very exciting for me because this is the first interview that I've done post lockdown which is face to face right I see I feel like I've lost all capacity for small talk and social interaction so i hope this is going okay no and we're holding the amazon delivery drivers around for like

minutes he's like i've got to go no no here tell me come here where are you where are you going now any of your kids well you know just like desperate for for chat it's been a strange time your final failure is your failure to sit still, which is such a charming failure to choose. How have I done today? I feel like I've been battling it a wee bit here because I do have to sit still. It's funny when I said to my wife this morning

before I came, she said, did you decide it? She knew I'd decided on the first two or whatever. What did you decide for the third failure? And I said, because I had plenty of options, obviously. I said, a failure to sit still. And she went, uh-huh. She said, did you say you could add on and quiet?

And I was like, right. I'm going to defend myself a wee bit here. You get blood tests done all the time as an actor. You have to do medical before every job. Do you? If you myself a wee bit here. You get blood tests done all the time as an actor. You have to do a medical before every job. Do you? If you're a lead in something, and if the production can't really continue without your health being in check, then you need to do these medicals.

And sometimes they're really thorough, and you're on a fucking treadmill, or hooked up to all these pads and a big mask on. Sometimes they're testing you for specific things like illegal drugs and all kinds of stuff right you go through and it's kind of great because you get like a free medical every year and you get a proper checkup and sometimes it's much less than that sometimes it's a cough and a whistle and out you go but in a very early medical i had and then i've had it done a few times since my bloods were tested for adrenaline and i had very high levels of adrenaline in my system so that is my excuse for what I feel is struggling to sit still and to

be still and sometimes maybe to be quiet too I'm a terrible singer like I don't mean I'm terrible so I'm an okay singer but like what I mean is I'm terrible like I do it all the time and I'm probably a bit of a nightmare to be around a lot of time because of that I think I make a lot of noise and I move a lot and I'm one of those people who really genuinely struggles unless I've exercised when I was younger I was playing a lot of sport playing a lot of rugby and stuff I got that out of my system so I probably was a bit calmer but as you get older and you've kids and as much as you're running about after them I'm not running right after ball or running with a ball so it's a strange thing now if I don't

run or work out or play football or whatever it is I'm way worse when it comes to a certain time particularly around five my wife calls it shoddy bangy time which is like something you'd apply to your toddlers everyone I've lived with is acutely aware of this situation and it's usually around that time of the day something about my adrenaline levels blood sugar levels whatever I go a bit hyper around that time that's fascinating and then what happens to you do you have after the spike do you have a bit of a crash yeah I will sometimes have a bit of a crash I have quite low lows I have to say I think and that's related to everything I'm saying about bloods and stuff and I'm a on form person most of the time you know I don't think anyone would think of me as someone who again me trying to not be inside my

head a lot I try to not be inside my head a lot I'm trying to communicate with people often probably too much for my wife's liking she is an only child and is a very calm person and likes calm a lot of time and probably I'm not ideal the guy that I've been writing this script that we've kind of finished I've been you know in a room with him for a couple of weeks he's a very close friend anyway but he's never spent that type of time with me and you know him and my wife are very close and Connor his name's Connor McNeil and Connor's like we came up after a couple of days into my office together and to Millie he was like how do you live with him and she was like I know I was like you know what fuck you guys I'm standing here and like I guess

I'm not that aware of how annoying it can be but I think it is so is going to the theater your idea yeah nightmare nightmare especially those old theaters where there there's no leg room and stuff tell you what the one of the hardest things was doing the fall because i've made a choice to play him very still which was a nightmare for me and then by the third series i was pretty much spending the whole series in a hospital bed a massive challenge again for me you have the props guys coming I was pretty much spending the whole series in a hospital bed a massive challenge again for me you have the props guys coming in and saying Jamie every time you keep moving and every time you move we have to replace this and I'm like I'm so sorry I'm really

trying I'm really trying not to do it I just can't I just can't terrible and that's something you've always had I believe so yeah squirmy squirmy Jamie active child yeah an active man yeah squirmy you've done very well today i have to say it hasn't felt it doesn't feel rude at all it feels like yeah part of your

expression yeah i think it has become that you know but now when i see it i'm like oh my god what is wrong with you you know i'll see like a like an interview of myself on like a red carpet or something I'm literally like rocking back and forth like I'm in some like asylum it's mad you know thank god this isn't on camera I still hate hearing my voice I hate seeing myself being myself I'm okay I don't love watching myself act it's much easier if I'm watching myself in something good because you're usually better if it's something that's well written great words make great actors as O'Toole said I'm a huge believer in that and that's okay but watching me be myself I cannot stand it I'm just like what are you doing I sit still why are you doing that with your eyes oh my god do you know your knees doing that I just can't believe how kinetic I am it's so interesting well I think that shows that you are the polar opposite of a

narcissist which is a great thing but I've watched your many chat shows I've never noticed the squirming you're an you're an impeccable chat show guest you are so you have that down pat like you're so good at it having just the right anecdote and being sort of friendly and funny and engaging. It's a skill being a good chat show guest, I imagine. Thanks. A lot of that's on the host, I reckon. I think Graham Norton's the best in the world at that. I totally agree.

And I love every single one of your appearances on Graham Norton. Thank you. The walking one, particularly. Thank you. Jesus, that comes up a lot. People who don't know me. It's very funny. I think it was the first time i ever did graham norton and i it's amazing how many times i i talk about it also i mean i'm still very aware of my walk and still very uncomfortable with the way i

walk in fact today i parked my car over there down the street and i got out of the car i went fuck i'm like 50 yards from your house and what if you're looking out and the first impression you have of me is walking I'm not joking I was like she's going to be like oh Jesus Christ look at this guy

tiptoeing my bouncer up the fucking road so I was delighted when you hadn't seen me until I was standing in the door and i thought if i can get to that chair quick enough and then wriggle around in it for an hour and a half i have not noticed anything amiss with your walk for anyone who hasn't seen that graham norson clip first of all i highly recommend it and secondly jamie was talking about how you naturally walk on your toes yeah you you want to see our one and a half you're not quite one

unless you've got one and a half by the time this comes out she is on her toes the entire time and like oh well okay it is something within me that they're inheriting and i'm i feel terrible about it but yeah i was basically taught when i was had like dance lessons for something that you're actually meant to sort of he said you know it's like walking you, you go heel to toe. And I was like, what? It's news to me. So, yeah. Yeah, Mystery in Grim Norton is funny. On New Year's Eve, we were with our best friends and we were, you know, drunk.

And, you know, you say all these lovely things at the stroke of midnight. I turned around to Millie and I was like, I think I have five movies coming out in 2020. I said to Millie, I really think this is going to be just 2020 it's gonna be a great year for me cut to the worst year of all time for absolutely everyone except like you know whoever owns Netflix yeah it was this weird thing and actually a part of me is upset is like not getting to sit on Graham's sofa and promote some of the movies which I will hopefully get to at some time and that whole remote thing that he was doing, it was hard, wasn't it? Yeah, it doesn't have the same feeling. Yeah, I felt sorry for like,

I think Paul Meskell had to do it to me early on. You know, obviously it'd be like his first time doing the show and he's like, you know, sat on his flat in Hackney. I felt quite sorry for him. Are you friends with Paul Meskell, just because you're both Irish? I am not listen I've more than

best mates now no listen I reached out to him reached out that's such an American thing to say it's my agent says it all the time

I text him again listen Ireland's the smallest place in the world so it is not six degrees of separation in Ireland it's one

two maybe one of the very good mates is very good man so I said ask Paul if it's okay for me one of the very good mates is very good man his so I said ask Paul if it's okay for me to to get in touch so I did so now I'm in touch with him but I you know sometimes you watch something you're just compelled and I find myself I think we should do that more in my game because everyone is so accessible I've never had a situation yet where I've been moved

by someone's performance or a director on something that I haven't been able to get in touch with you know if you've good representation you can do that and it's I think it's a good thing and it's something I'm doing more of now because it doesn't happen to me loads but it certainly has happened to me and from people that usually never expect that are seeing usually it's the fall you know very you know heighty actors get in touch and I'm like oh, like I've never done that. So I'm starting to do that more because I think it's nice to hear it from peers. Like saying, by the way, what you did in that was phenomenal.

And I just want you to know that it might mean nothing coming from me that I'm telling you that. But I'd like you to know that I think it's right that you know that. Also, who better to guide him through instant fanatical heartthrob status than you? I mean, it feels even bigger for him, I think, because we were all in lockdown when The Obsession began with that show. And it must have just been so strange for him to be feeling that all through his phone and on his laptop and not in reality. It's probably fucking good for him, to be honest.

You know, that's the case. But he's going to get a proper shock when the pub's open and well they'll open by the time this is he's probably been kidnapped or something by now paul to be honest by the time this comes out there'll be people see him and just jump him and throw him in a van jamie donan inveterate squirmer yes i never noticed your walk i think you're just such a lovely, interesting, warm person. And I cannot thank you enough for coming on How To Fail. Thank you. I can't wait to fail many more times so I get to come on again.

Oh yeah, please, will you? Oh, I will. Don't worry, I'll be failing. I'll be making lots of failures. Don't worry. if you enjoyed this episode of how to fail with elizabeth day i would so appreciate it if you could rate review and subscribe apparently it helps other people know that we exist