How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S9, Ep7 How to Fail: Nadiya Hussain

Episode Date: October 7, 2020

[TW: contains discussion of sexual assault]You asked - and we listened. Welcome to one of the most requested podcast guests of all time, the wonderful Nadiya Hussain. Baker, tv presenter, author and all-round good egg, Nadiya joins me to talk about her failure to enjoy life, her failure to finish university and her failure to speak out on issues she subsequently realised were important for a public figure to tackle - such as race, identity and the issues we face as a country (such a self-aware failure, that). We also discuss her recently discovered joy of not planning, her constant effort to remain in the present and the fact that she doesn't have a cleaner (her children help her clean the house every weekend...I KNOW).*I have a new book out! Failosophy: A Handbook For When Things Go Wrong contains two-and-bit years worth of accumulated wisdom from my fantastic podcast guests and is available here*Nadiya's new book, Nadiya Bakes, is available to order here.*How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted by Elizabeth Day, produced by Naomi Mantin and Chris Sharp. We love hearing from you! To contact us, email [e-mail] You can buy our fantastic PODCAST MERCH here.* Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayNadiya Hussain @begumnadiyaHow To Fail @howtofailpod                Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamx. Benefits vary by card. Other conditions apply. Today's episode of How to Fail is sponsored by Joe Malone London's charity candle collection. Thursday, the 10th of October is World Mental Health Day. One in four people will be affected by mental health issues in their lifetime.

Joe Malone London is shining a light on mental health. They are proud to support those struggling with their mental health, empowering people to recover, to reconnect and to grow. Since 2012, Jo Malone London has donated over 2.3 million pounds to dedicated projects with inspirational charities to help shine a light on mental health, raising awareness, providing support, stamping out stigmas one step and candle at a time. You can discover a little more about the charities and the projects that these candle purchases help to make possible at joemalone.co.uk forward slash how tofail. Thank you very much to Jo Malone London. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that

haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned from failure. I'm so delighted to welcome today's guest onto the podcast. I have lost count of the number of messages I've had from listeners begging me to get her on, and I can promise you this will be more than worth the wait. She is the winner of the sixth series of the Great British Bake Off, a woman who inspired 14 and a half million viewers with her rousing victory speech. Catapulted into the limelight,

she went on to front several hit TV food programmes and was chosen to bake the Queen's 90th birthday cake. She's also got 13 books to her name, including four works of children's fiction and last year's moving memoir, Finding My Voice. Her fifth cookbook, Nadia Bakes, has just been published and comes with an accompanying BBC2 TV show. She is, of course, Nadia Hussain. But as well as being a superstar, Hussain is always quick to point out that she also inhabits several other roles. She is a mother of three who grew up one of six children in a working class Bangladeshi community in Luton and who had an arranged marriage at the age of 20. She is a wife, a daughter, a sister and, by her own admission, a woman capable of eating 20 fish fingers in a single setting. Yes, you heard me right, 20. And she is someone who has been brave

enough to speak out about her own mental health, talking openly about her panic attacks and PTSD with trademark openness and humour. In doing so, she has made it easier for countless others to be honest about their own struggles in turn. I'm forever making it out like I've got it all together and I know what I'm doing, she has said in the past. The truth is, I haven't got a clue. Nadia Hussain, welcome to How to Fail. fail hello that just made me feel quite oh that made me feel a little bit emotional oh well I'm glad I suppose if it was yeah I mean it's all you that's your life so far it's wildly impressive for someone who says that she doesn't have a clue I mean how true is that that you don't have a clue I don't really and I don't say that just because I just

want to sound like I don't know what I'm doing but really I've got this master plan I really don't I don't I've never had I think what I learned as a youngster was I always had plans like I was going to go to university and I was going to go I was going to become a psychologist and I was going to as a young kid I'm even younger than that I said to myself I'm going to be an archaeologist and I think life taught me that it's not worth having plans because it just causes disappointment so I just kind of don't plan anything anymore. That is so up my street I can't tell you I used to be someone with a five year plan and then I realized that I was living my life according to a future version of me rather than paying attention to what I might want in the present yeah absolutely

and also not having a plan means you can be flexible so you can win Great British Bake Off and your career can take this extraordinary turn but what was fame like for you because it really did happen overnight nothing can really ever prepare you for that like I think I literally felt like I'd walked out of one life shut the door behind me and stepped into a new one with my husband and my kids and what happens in that situation is that you choose to step into that life but everybody comes along and that's not always an easy transition to make because that was difficult for the children difficult for my husband for our relationship and also you know the people around me my brothers my sisters

their children it affects them and I don't think you really see that I certainly didn't see that at the time and like five years later I look back and I think my goodness they adjusted really well and I applaud them for that because literally I did walk out of one door and walk into another and I don't know that I'll ever ever walk through the other door ever again you can't really walk back from all of this which my kids always tell me they're like you know that you've got a wiki page I'm like kids seriously stop googling me stop I don't let them google me they used to do it quite a lot and I'm like don't because there's quite a lot of negativity and hate out there as well so they google things and get really upset and say, mom, so and so saying this about you. And so I'm like, okay, we need to stop that. We have to stop that. And so

it's a rule. Nobody in my family is allowed to Google me ever, ever, ever. But yeah, it was something that happened so quickly. Like I said, I never had a plan and Bake Off certainly wasn't a route to a grander, bigger plan for me. It was just because I suffered with anxiety and my husband applied for me and said, I just think you should do something so I mean he thought let's put you on the biggest baking show in the country I mean yeah that's not going to help my anxiety and actually when you were filming Great British Bake Off as composed and talented as you seemed on screen I know that after filming ended you would often go back to the hotel and have anxiety attacks, wouldn't you? Yeah, I mean, I would have them in between. I would go to the loo and I would just,

I knew that it was coming and I would try and find excuses to go and hide and have panic attacks. And for the entire 10 weeks, I definitely was not well, you know, I wasn't looking after myself mentally and it wasn't easy. I think five years later I meet so many amazing people who are so open about their own mental health now and because I talk about it I think people feel that they can talk to me about it and I love that somebody will be in a queue and I'm like the person that signs really quickly but I will spend ages to I just spend ages and I I hate it when there are people ushering people I'm like just stop doesn't matter just let them talk let them talk.

Let them be. And we talk about their mental health, my mental health. They've always got questions. And I found myself really, really struggling. And it wasn't a fun place for me to be at the time. It wasn't easy at all. And I really did struggle with my mental health. And I think lots of people who watched the show,

the people that I'd met afterwards said I could see it. And it's really weird. I think if you suffer with mental health issues or suffer with anxiety or panic, it's like this hidden language that people see. And loads of people that I'd met afterwards said, you seemed confident, but you could see you were struggling as well. So it's really weird how people picked up on that as well. What's it like then sort of combining those two facets that we've just talked about having severe anxiety and then becoming famous so quickly and going out onto the street where you live and feeling like your face is conspicuous is that how it felt that there was no hiding it's safe to say that that just doesn't exist you know I can't go out anymore and without I mean even now with a face mask on they still I still have people start like how do you know it's me

and often people say it's your voice they say it's your voice they can hear my voice and there's a that's definitely your voice so and it just kind of seems to happen more I think if I'm doing something on the telly or if there's a show on the telly it happens a lot more it's insane how I never really thought about it. And then I went out. I remember there was one day I went out and this guy said, he looked at me and he pointed at me. And it always makes me laugh, this does.

He pointed at me and like a good five seconds, he kind of pointed right at me and he said, and you could see he had his thinking face on. And he said, do you work at H&M? And I just looked at him and I smiled and my kids all smiled back at me. And I said, yes, yes, that's exactly where I work. And he said, I thought so. And then he just walked away. And then I watched him as he walked away. He kind of kept looking back as if he'd made a mistake, which we knew he had. And then I just kind of, and I was like, that's kind of sweet,

but you can't say well actually no yes this is where you you can't I could not say that no way but that was hilarious I found that then my kids always talk about that and how old are your kids now my eldest turned 14 and my second son will turn 13 in the next few days and then my little girl's nearly 10 so like literally in September and October very busy months for us so 14, 13 and 10. And how has lockdown been for you as a family? Let's fast forward 15, 20 years from now and the kids have grown up they have their own lives I think they're going to fingers crossed we all are happy are happy, healthy, and we make it that far. I know that sounds really morbid,

but I'm really like open about talking about death. It's like, we're not going to make it. We're not all going to be here. So hopefully, you know, in 15, 20 years time, they're going to say that was that time there was this pandemic and we all stayed at home for six months. Their kids are going to wish a pandemic into existence,

aren't they? Because the thought of, yeah, they are, because for them, they're having a laugh. And you hear about war stories where young children laugh and, you know, they tell stories about evacuating and bunkers, and they talk about this moment that was difficult and sad, but they've taken something positive from it. And I think that's what I've learned about my children and all children children is that they have this unbelievable ability to find and see the good in everything and we're in a pandemic how do we protect our families have we got enough food have we got enough loo roll I did not stockpile by the way can I just say

but yeah just all of the worries that we have as adults I think the kids somehow found the joy in being at home and a couple of weeks in, I just said, we're here. We've got nothing else to do. We have to find the joy in being together. That's all we have right now. So we have to enjoy it. And today's actually the first day I'm at home completely by myself. And my husband's working from home.

But it's the first day we're alone at home and I really miss them. And although I'm really scared because they are in school in the middle of a pandemic and as for social distancing, they say it's in place. But goodness me, it's just not going to happen with kids who haven't seen each other for six months. It just isn't. And I'm sad. I can hear them. Like sometimes I can hear my son walking in the house or my daughter calling me because it's just been our lives for six months. They've been amazing. I've got to say the the children they are going to be one wonderful generation of adults

they are they really are you mentioned there that you don't shy away from talking about death in your family which I applaud but I was going to ask you a really simple question about whether you're a workaholic but I wonder if I could make it a little more detailed and ask whether your awareness that you have only so much time on this planet drives into the fact that you Nadia want to do the most that you possibly can yeah I'm a workaholic I'm just gonna say it I am I love working I love being busy so the last six months has been really difficult for me because like many people I've worried about my job my job comes with being accessible being relevant and I think all of that worries me it worries me it's like I'm 36 this year and I'm like oh I'm just getting old now that's it that's it Nadia I've interviewed you twice before in person and you look about 18 your skin is a

phenomenon it's like one of the seven wonders of the world anyway carry on sorry interrupted yeah I just I worry like everybody else we all worry and I think it makes me work hard but I think my workaholic nature has come from my parents because they're really hard workers if there's a point in their life where they're not actually physically working in a job they never stop they're always always making the most of what they have and if it's gardening or like they don't buy any vegetables all their vegetables are grown in their garden I mean you cannot get better than that like even though they work full-time jobs they also look after this garden and they provide vegetables for themselves and for us so I think the workaholic part of me

comes from my parents because they are hard workers and I suppose I could see it in their face and in their nature and how they were when we were younger was that nothing was given to them for free you know they had to work hard for everything that they've got and they had to work 10 times harder than everyone else because my mom doesn't speak English very well you know they're immigrants so they work 10 times harder doing difficult jobs that paid a lot less than other people's jobs so you know I think that workaholic nature comes from that. But that being said, you know, I am a firm believer in talking about death.

Like we must talk about it. I try not to worry about getting old because I literally saw one teeny where I've been frowning for the last six months. I saw a wrinkle on my forehead. And I said to my husband, that just means that as much as I hate that little line on my face,

that just means that I've lived one extra year and you know we don't know what's guaranteed to us so we have to make the most of it and so I have to know when I go to bed at night that we've made the most of our day and I always ask my kids what's the best thing you did today and do you think you made the most of your day today and they always look and they we always have these chats never at bedtime because they're a little bit morbid but when they get back from school we always talk about have you made the most of your day and like my son will say no you know what I need to go and play with my budgie upstairs he's got a budgie in his bedroom and he's like no I will have made the most of my day when I've given him some time or my little girl will say

you know what today mummy I'm going to do the dishes for you that will make the most of my day and it's those little things that gets them thinking and I think it's really important because I always tell them tomorrow isn't guaranteed. And if you're not here tomorrow, what would you have done today? And they always think of something really cool to do. I think we should be more honest for sure. That's so beautiful. I'd love to hear, just before we get onto your failures, a little bit more about your parents and your grandmother.

I read in a recent interview that you gave that your mother still works six days a week but she's reticent about you talking about her job so tell us about that about three years ago she used to work in a so you know those when you go to M&S you go to the supermarket and you have fruit chopped up in these little plastic pots with forks yes well my mum was one of those women who would chop up the fancy fruit and like the tropical fruit and she would chop it up and put it into little bowls and they would go on the conveyor belt well my mum was one of those for the last couple of years she's been working at a hospital linen factory so they clean all the linen that comes out of hospitals and you can imagine the last six months how busy she's

been she's been working six days sometimes seven days a week, 12 hour shifts, really hot with a mask and PPE. And she absolutely hates it when I talk about her job. And I do what all good daughters do is I don't listen to her. She just says, please don't talk about my job. And I said, what is your, what is your problem? What do you hate about me talking about your job? And she just said, well, you do this amazing job. I don't want you to be embarrassed by the job that I do and I just could not I was like mom my ears are bleeding what are you saying I am so proud of you she's one of the people who have kept this country running for the last six months and I am so proud of that because she has not stopped one day not one day has she stopped yet she has time to cook

for us she's always dropping stuff off and dropping off food. And she just, like, she doesn't ever stop, literally never, ever stops. And she says that I mustn't talk about her job. And I said, mum, that's just not going to happen because you're amazing. You, your colleagues, amongst all the other amazing people who work for the NHS have kept this country going. And I'm not shy about that. And so I talk about it as much as I can, wherever I can, wherever it's possible. Thank you. I find that unbelievably moving. I really do. And what's her name? Her name's Asma. Asma, thank you so much. You're such a hero. What an incredible woman. And tell us about your grandmother, because one of the first times we

met, I asked about how many members of your family read your books and what they think of you and whether they're proud and you said that your grandmother can't read any of your books even though she taught you so much about cooking yeah my grandma she's in her 90s and she's getting very old now I mean I say that now because literally a few years ago she was not old she just wasn't and she just getting she's getting a little bit weathered, a little bit worn, a bit tired now. So my mum's really scared because she's away in Bangladesh now. And she's like, well, she's really worried that she won't be able to see her mum.

But she is literally the backbone of our family. She was the one, just like many grandparents, was the one that took over when my brother and sister were sick and in and out of hospital. Grandparents, that's something I've looked at. They just do things without question. They just do stuff. There was a time where I could just drop my children off to my mum and she wouldn't question it. She would drop everything. They wouldn't question it. And my grandma was that woman. She would look after us for weeks, months at a time. And she doesn't read or write. You know, I've been able to write some amazing cookbooks and I've been able to write my memoir and none of which she can ever read

and none of which she will ever understand, which makes me really sad. But I think in some ways, she's been able to live her life as joyfully as possible because she didn't really understand what was happening around her a lot of the time. So in some ways, she's become oblivious to what really happens.

And I'm kind of pleased that she's at this age where she doesn't really understand what the pandemic is, because she'll go happy knowing that her life was as full as it could be. I mean, it could have been full. I wish she could read or write. But we did used to. I say we, but that's because I feel really guilty. Because if I say I, I'm the only one incriminating myself. I literally used to prank her all the time. It was terrible. The only thing that she would eat out of a can was beans so one day I removed the label off her cans and then I took them off and then I replaced them with cat food yeah oh my gosh that's so naughty I know and I was like definitely it wasn't even pre-teen it was definitely like teen and I

don't know why I did that she's so nice she's always been really nice to me and I could go to her house for sleepovers and she would cook for me and she would bring me breakfast in bed like nobody ever does that and my mum never did that she was like get your sorry backside downstairs and clean up and then make breakfast not my nan would make me breakfast and bring it upstairs and I replaced the cans of beans for cat food but then I put the bean label back on yeah so she thought it was beans and so she opened it and I thought she'd freak out or throw the can at me but she just said oh come have a look at this and I went over obviously trying desperately not to give it away and she

just said I think the beans have gone off well at least she didn't eat it so that's good so I'm so mean but I do love her but we did I did take advantage of the fact that she couldn't read or write it doesn't make her any less special she's pretty special let's get on to your failures you have written them so beautifully to me that I'm kind of tempted just to read them out but that would negate the point of the podcast so your first failure is your failure to enjoy life and it's related to your mental health. So tell us what you mean by that. I do like this podcast because I think we're often not very good at talking about, we don't talk about our failures often enough.

I think it's good to address them because I think it's a really good way of understanding how we work and how we can change things. it's a really good way of understanding how we work and and how we can change things because I spend so much time on making sure especially where work is concerned making sure that I've got I've met the deadlines I've made sure the kids clothes are ironed made sure all of that and like if I don't get those things done I feel like I failed that for me has definitely been the biggest struggle and actually what I fail to do is actually enjoy the little things in life and that could be rather than worrying about the ironing being done you know I fail to enjoy the little things which is we turn on the music and we do the ironing together in bits

and we laugh about ironing underpants it's those things it's hard to talk about your failures because when you first sent me that email and I responded it's like wow it's really hard to talk about it because we almost don't want to address what we're failing at and often when you think about failures it's about not meeting that deadline or setting yourself a goal and not meeting that goal I think often it's those failures well I think you're so right because I think that if you live with anxiety there is a sense that your thoughts are so powerful that I mean this is my experience that you become fearful that just by thinking it it's going to come true so there's a sense that I don't want to dwell on my failures I don't want to dwell on the things that I am doing wrong in case I magically

tempt the universe into teaching me a lesson and then you get to the point again at least I do where you worry about your worry so you're like I'm worrying so much I'm I'm not concentrating on enjoying the little things and so then you're anxious about your own anxiety is that your experience yeah I worry so much about the big things that I fail to remind myself that you know you know those moments where you catch yourself smiling or laughing that's when I realized that my anxiety is so all-consuming sometimes that I fail to really enjoy the little things I find myself constantly just reminding myself of my failures I was like you've not done this or you've not met that deadline or you've not finished this and you'd normally have

all the ironing done on a Friday or you haven't done this you haven't filled out this form for the children it's all of those things we're constantly telling ourselves that we've failed but actually if I step back I'm failing to enjoy life yeah I'm failing because of my anxiety, because I put so much on myself. I am failing to enjoy the little things. I get these moments and I don't know if it's the same for you, but I get these moments where I'm laughing, like belly laughing. Like last night, trying to get my daughter to bed. Normally I'd be like, it's like, I look at the time, it's like, it's nearly 7.30. You need to be asleep. And I look at the time and it's gone like 7 35 yesterday it was like 8 30 and we were belly laughing in bed and it took me just that moment just say you know what that was worth it for her to go to bed one hour just to look at

that moment just step away from it be in the moment just step away from from a moment realize that I can do that like I can laugh I can enjoy that moment even though it's an hour she's still not in bed I still haven't met the deadline but it doesn't matter I fail to enjoy the little things and I think that's one of my biggest failures is that I fret about the lists and the deadlines so much and not disappointing publishers or producers I'm a teacher's pet I I want to get everything done. I don't want anyone to ever say Nadia doesn't get her stuff in on time because I don't want anyone to say that. I fail to really enjoy the stuff around me. And you know what? What I found

in the last six months is I can meet those deadlines and enjoy life at the same time. Is there a tactic that you use? I mean, I know people talk a lot about sort of mindfulness and flexing the muscle of trying to be in the present and yoga and actually again I think that when people are in the grip of anxiety doing those things can also feel overwhelming so it's another stick to beat yourself with but do you have any kind of practical strategies for bringing yourself back to the present one thing I learned and it's really helped me with my anxiety over the last six months I really did struggle at the beginning I found myself struggling to get out of bed but I think that was everyone I think I think anyone was getting out of bed I think we were all just in bed a lot honestly I'm struggling with the whole waking up and wearing actual clothes so am I

I'm in leggings and a hoodie as we speak. Yes, exactly. I put on jeans and luckily they fit. So I was like, oh my goodness, I didn't realize I was going to get into them. I didn't feel like I was. But one thing I've realized with my anxiety is that so often I put so much pressure on myself to rid myself of the panic. So I exhaust all of my emotions on trying to hide it or to get rid of it. And what I found over the last year and a half, two years, is that I learned that actually what you have to do is allow it to happen. Because so much of my time is spent worrying that it's going to happen and worrying where it's going to happen and worrying who's going to see it happen. Whether it's at home, whether it's around my kids,

whether it's outside when I'm out in town, or if I'm at the supermarket, I always worry that I'm going to have a panic attack and someone's going to see me. When I did my documentary, Anxiety and Me, I met with the therapist. And one of the things I took back from him was that, actually, so what? Like, what happens if somebody sees you you what if somebody sees you have a panic attack what happens what's the worst that's going to happen and I think knowing that actually it doesn't matter if someone sees you has been life-changing for me because you know what's the worst that's going to happen if my kids see me have a panic attack because that's my biggest worry is that my kids will see me and they have seen me have a panic attack now and you know it's

not the end of the world and what's happened is it's like remove the shame from it so often I feel really shameful of the fact that as a 35 year old can't handle emotions well enough that I have to have panic attacks but that's the teenager in me that's speaking the things I say to myself I would never say to my children so why do I say them to myself so I find myself allowing it to happen now I don't try and get back to the present I don't try to remove myself anymore I let it happen and one thing we did over lockdown was that we got some plants and we named all of the plants so each one has a name and it's named after each person in our house and the children have a job and their job is to look after and nurture their plant it's like a

physical representation of themselves so please don't kill the plant which is what we don't want to do we want to we will try and keep it alive okay but we're going to try our very best so I got them plants that they can really really just will not like die so that's good but yeah so you know they've got these lovely plants and it's really bizarre because from the moment I got those plants when they wake up in the morning they'll tidy their beds and they're right by their beds and they they just say, I better water him, they'll check the leaves, and they'll make sure. And I was like, you know how you nurture that plant, you've got to nurture you as well, you've got to look after you. So you've got to ask yourself, when you water that

plant, or you're pruning the leaves, or you're picking the roses off it, are you doing the same for yourself? It's like a metaphorical representation of themselves, which has really helped. And my plant is thriving just like theirs. Can we talk a bit about where your anxiety came from, or when you first started feeling it? Because, again, I can't recommend your memoir, Finding My Voice, highly enough, because you do talk about your childhood and certain incidents in your childhood that might have triggered how you now feel so can you tell us a bit about being bullied at school and also the illness in the household that you as a child felt very anxious about I would get asked off quite often like what do you remember when you had anxiety and I can't really pinpoint it but for as long as I can remember I've always had it so I can think back as far as five and I remember just always feeling this feeling whatever this is or whoever I am it's always been the same

for me I've always felt worried and I remember parents evenings they would say she just worries too much about everything and I think we have to stop saying that that's something I've learned myself with my own children you don't just stick a label on their heads and say they're just a worrier no why are they worrying why are they afraid why are they scared what's bothering them so much so they can't actually physically or do any work so we have to question those things but you know growing up as a child, I think back now, and I think, my goodness, you know, there I was one of six. And I think that's why I always stopped at having three children. In my head, I wanted a massive family. And I kind of just said to myself, I think how am I supposed to divide my time between three children? It's hard enough as it is, I only have

two hands. What I learned with my daughter, if I hold the boy's hands, she'll grab onto anything else. So growing up in a family of six kids, your attention gets divided in different ways. And I think when there's of the six, when there's two that are really sick, a lot of that attention goes to them. And I don't think people really ask, even though they are suffering, which I never want to take away from that. And I think even now I struggle to do it because even now I can't even say it because they were important for them. Often it was life or death, especially with my sister. So how can my problems be bigger than life or death? And I think as a six, seven year old, I had to learn perspective and my other siblings, we had to learn perspective really early and I think as a six or seven year old if you're being bullied or if somebody is smashing your fingers in between

door hinges just to punish you for being brown they matter those problems are real regardless of the fact that you've got a brother or sister who's sick those problems are still real and I think as an adult as a parent I see that now and I tell myself that it was okay to have those problems you know I should have said something to someone but I think when you've got ill siblings being bullied seems like nothing when it's life or death and I think because we had to learn perspective very early I think all of these things were contributing factors to my anxiety and my mental health. And of course, being bullied from goodness knows really young, like really young, same boys from seven all the

way up to about 16. And it was the same two faces. So it was really tough. It was really, really tough. I think that's such a, an insightful retrospective way of understanding because that thing about a child having to learn perspective at that age at that age most children rightly think that the world revolves around them that's the sort of appropriate stage of their evolution and so to have to kind of deal with all of this. My heart breaks for you as a small child, and that is a lot to have on your plate. And I know that you talk in your memoir not just about the bullying, but also about an episode of sexual assault when you were five,

and it's interesting to me that that's the same age at which you remember feeling anxious. How difficult was that to open up about that particular incident it was that particular bit of writing that I really struggled with because I would write it in then I would write it out then I would write it in and then I would write it out and I did that gosh I don't know dozens of times I just like write in write it out and I said to my husband I'm writing it out I said no no no I'm writing it out I'm not putting it in I'm not putting it in and he said you know why are you taking it out so I kind of explained it's embarrassing and I don't want to talk about it

and I don't want to put my parents through anything like I don't want it to be difficult for my family and he said yeah but who are you writing this book for I think that's what I had to really think about who I was writing this book for. And I wrote the book and I wrote it and I read it back and I read it back again and again. And the more I read it, the more I realized this was much more than just my book. You know, this was about voices. It wasn't just about my voice. It's about the people who read the book. And I know growing up, I didn't necessarily pick up a book where I looked at the face of the author and thought I can relate to her face or the way she dresses or

her name or being able to pronounce my name. I never picked up a book like that, never. And to say that makes me really sad. As a lover of books, it makes me so sad that as a child, I never picked up one book that I could relate to. So I asked myself, who am I writing this book for? And this book was not written for me. This book was not about just finding my own voice. It's about everybody finding theirs. And for those people who don't have a voice to find their voice in my words, in the hope that it helps them to find their own voice. So when I think about the sexual abuse, which was, I still really struggle even now to talk about it,

I find it really difficult and I find myself sweating and getting anxious and not being able to put the words together because it was a horrible memory that will stay with me forever. And if I could erase of all the memories, that would be one that I would completely, men in black, erase, zap my brain. But I can't. And I know that sexual abuse is something that we do not talk about enough. And it is something that happens within my community. And it is hidden.

And it is completely masked over. People don't talk about it. And it happens within families. It happens all the time and I'm telling you this as a member of a community I've experienced it myself as a teenager of the group of five or six friends it happened to every single one of us there is a problem and that needs to be addressed and I know naturally I think when you are a part of a community you become that voice you become the spokesperson and I didn't ask to become the

spokesperson I just happened to be a part of this community and there is a big problem and so every time I wrote it out I wrote it eventually when I wrote it back in I said no this is something that we have to talk about because for far too long, people have just ignored it and allowed it to happen and it cannot happen anymore. I hope that in writing about it, it's allowed other people to realise that it's a problem that needs to be addressed and we need to keep talking about it. I'm sure it has. And thank you so much for talking about it again today. And I'm sorry to have asked you about it because I imagine that talking about it is incredibly retraumatizing. And you're so brave for doing it.

And it's such an important thing to do. So thank you. Your second failure, we're now fast forwarding a bit. So after school, your failure to finish university. So to begin with, you weren't allowed to go to university. Is that right? Yeah. So I got into university, which was the plan.

It was the plan all along. And see what I mean about not planning things because they don't always work out. So I think that was one of the biggest things. I think my life turned so dramatically in a different direction at that point where I completely gave up on plans. I didn't believe in them. I didn't enjoy them and to me plans equaled failure plans equaled just disappointment so when I did eventually get into university four weeks away from going three weeks away from going two weeks away from going and then like just before I had like a week and a half to go ready

to pack up and go my mum just said no you're not going to university it's just not going to happen what was her reasoning I don't think I understood at the time why she was absolutely hell-bent on me not going to university in an ideal world she would have want me to go to university in Luton close to home still living at home I think now I look back years and years later and now I do understand I think I've forgiven her now like I'm over it at the time I was very angry upset but not vocal about it it was just a case of you are not going it was simple as that I didn't have a choice it was just you are not going to university and so I said fine I can talk but I couldn't fight them which lots of people can relate to my life has been a series of no no you can't no you

won't be able to no you're a girl no that's not appropriate no that's not the done thing and so at this point this was the biggest no I was ever going to get and I think I'd lost the fight I just think I thought you know what I'm not fighting this fight anymore I think at this point I've completely given up and I just said okay and I just didn't fight and I think that's the reaction my mum wasn't expecting so I didn't go I worked three jobs at times just concentrated completely on being at work and avoiding the fact that I was upset with my mum and you know I even like dad please just tell her please just tell her that I want to go to and he's like no your mum said it you can't go so you know I tried every avenue brother-in-laws you name it I was like please somebody talk to her and didn't work and so I just kind of distracted myself by going to work a lot spending a lot of

time very tired spending a lot of time doing night shifts and just working all the time and that's where I learned that if you work really hard you can earn loads of money so I just kind of enjoyed working and I did enjoy that and then it was like kind of I got to about 19 20 and it was just like that's the kind of age the whole marriage talk starts happening. Time to get you married, time to get you married. And as I wasn't going to university, I kind of didn't care. I was like, yeah, fine, whatever. It was then that I started talking to my husband and we spoke for about six months.

And then I said to my mom and dad, look, what do you think? And we met through our dads and we spoke to each other for six months. And then my dad was like yep let's just get you married and so the second time I'd ever seen my husband was the day we got married yes first time I ever met him was when we got engaged and he did a weird thing he didn't buy me a ring because he didn't know my ring size so he bought me a bracelet which was hideous it was just hideous it was like a BA Baracus type thing and I was like oh that's ugly so I mean literally the next day I went to the gold shop and I was like melt it down melt it down I've got the money back yeah I'm like that's my

Nadia Hussein that's the woman that I admire I was like it was really BA Baracus honestly it was A-team stuff and I just as a horrible got rid of it got the money I never got a replacement ring and so five years ago he bought me a proper ring he's like no no no I'm gonna get you a ring you actually like now that I actually know you and quite like you you're a keeper let's get you a ring we got married and then I eventually went to university I did half my degree while I was pregnant with my little girl until she was about three and then as soon as I went on to bake off I didn't finish the other half so that's the only thing I've never really finished I've finished everything except for that which I will finish

one day you explained it so well how you just felt like you'd lost the fight you've been ground down by being told no so many times that you just accepted it but do you think that there was a lot of anger there that had to be repressed and if so how have you dealt with that anger I'm generally not like an angry person if you shake me shake me shake me shake me I will blow eventually I'm generally like I'm not I don't drip feed anger generally I'm not an angry person I used to be as a kid in the last sort of six, seven years, I flow now. And I think as a teenager, I was quite angsty, quite angry, quite argumentative. I think that was shocked to my dad because he would just say, stop asking me questions. Just stop. I don't have the answers for

you. I can't tell you. And I really struggled with that because I always wanted answers I wanted to know about my grandparents I wanted to know how they felt and I wanted stories I wanted to talk and their parents they're talkers but they didn't sit down and give me those answers and I think naturally that made me quite angry and I think at the point where I was going to university I just gave up and I think by getting married and moving away very far which like my parents were like no he lives too far away and I was like you know what I want to move far away and I made the active choice I chose my husband based on the fact that he was 165 miles away from my family yeah because for me I think I needed to

if not spread my wings at least ruffle my feathers a little bit. And I think at that point, I was just kind of like, no, I'm going to do exactly what you didn't want me to do. But I'm going to do it the way you want me to do it, because it's more acceptable within society for me to be married and move away. So I was like, okay. Yeah. So I was like, well, I'll just do that. And I was miserable. I was absolutely miserable because I missed them so much. And I was like, this is not fun. Why doesn't anything ever just work out? And it's by far the best thing I ever did because without that, I wouldn't have my husband. But it took me years to build up the courage to want to even do a degree because it just reminded me of the fact that there I was pregnant with my third child when I should have

been having the time of my life at 18 enjoying my independence and enjoying being at university enjoying learning which is the thing that I love to do the most is to learn I love just learning new things and I remember feeling anger up to that point even to the point where I was pregnant and I'd just given birth 10 days ago and then I did my first exam and I had to take my breast pump and it was just like it was all very messy but I did it and I imagine I was revising while I was in labour. What? You took a breast pump? You took a breast pump to your exam? Yes I did take my breast pump with me just in case so like I wanted to take her in with me. My husband was literally sat outside with her so in case she needed feeding they would allow me

to go and feed her and so I kind of look back at those things and I think you know I should have been sort of young and detached enjoying my independence and learning and getting my degree and doing what everybody around me was doing and I was doing the opposite and now like as a 35 year I look back and I think it was just life's plan I can't plan anything life planned this for me and so now I get to be a 35 year old woman who is still very much active like I have a 14 year old who is bigger than I am who if he wants to remove me from a room just throws me over his shoulder and just takes me to the next room and says mom you stay in here okay and like okay I could have just walked but he loves the fact that he can lift me up. I get to be a 35

year old with teenagers. And I feel really grateful for that. So yeah, I feel really lucky. So I have to see, even though that was one of my life's failures, I suppose, in some ways, not planning has meant that life's failure has become one of my successes. That is so on brand for this podcast. It's almost like I planted that sentence, but it also sounds to me, and this is where the title of your memoir comes in, Finding My Voice. When you mentioned earlier that thing about being in your flow, it feels to me as if you stopped being angry at around the time that you found your voice and started being listened to. Yeah, if I think back to my anxiety

and my struggles and I look back at some of the things that made me really angry even after moving away you know being a stay-at-home mom you know financially we couldn't afford for me to go to work because going to work meant sending the children to nursery earning enough money to send them to nursery then my husband to have to top it up because I couldn't earn in as much as him so for me it's those little things that lack of control and I found the lack of control that I had before I got married was no different to the one after it was no different after I got married because I was then a stay-at-home mom which can I just say is definitely the best job I've ever ever done my life. And it's so rewarding knowing

that and I feel like now it's now I look back, it was a privilege to be able to stay at home with my children. But you know, we suffered for it because we didn't eat very much, we had to literally save every penny, we had to look at the gas meter and question whether we could boil potatoes. So as a family, we were always just on the edge, know paying off our debts you know buying a house and it was hard it wasn't always easy you know we made the choice to buy a house we had to make financial decisions which meant that we had to struggle at the same time so um I don't even know what you asked I went so off on a tangent no you you have answered it I suppose it was about the power of being heard but actually you've been talking about the power of being heard. But actually, you've been talking about the power

of being in control again. And for a long time, you weren't in control. Yeah, I thought that when I got married, I'd have this control. And then the control that I didn't have before I got married. And then I realised after I got married that it felt like I was at the mercy of my own decisions. Then it was like, I've had children and they need me. And I struggled because I think back now I was 20 years old. I did not even know myself. I didn't even know my own voice. And then I was expected to raise children and give them a voice or teach them. And I was just, I did not feel qualified for that job at all. I was so afraid after I had my boys. I just thought, oh my goodness, they are are real people like real human beings

everything I say and do affects them and the enormity of the responsibility really weighed heavy on me and I really struggled with that and then I felt more out of control than ever and choosing to stay at home with the kids or you know financially needing to stay at home with the kids it was really hard I didn't have financial independence you know I had two very young children and by the time I had my daughter I had three kids under the age of four so so it was hard and there was moments where I kind of only ever saw myself as a wife and a mother and a daughter and a daughter-in-law and a sister that was it I was only ever those things and I suppose because everyone has a stage in their life where they really work out who they are and chronologically it should be when you go off to university when you leave home when you start mixing with who are going to be probably your

forever friends because I missed that chunk of my life I think part of me always longed for it and waited to see when am I going to find my voice? When am I going to find out who I am? And doing Bake Off was so much more than a baking competition for me, because for me, up to that point, nobody believed in me enough to say you can do this on your own. And that goes back to university because my parents, they were scared. They're immigrants. I was the first girl and first person in my family to make it to university. For them, it was like sending me to the moon. And if my son said he wanted to go to the moon, I'd be scared. I'd want to say no to him. So my parents did the only thing they knew how and was to say no, because they were scared. Of course, if my son says he wants to go to the moon, I can't say no to him. I can't say no to him I can't say no to him I have to believe that

he knows that he's doing what's best for him and I think for me in that moment when Abdel said you need to stop doing everything for us you need to do something for you it was the first time in my life my whole life where one person believed that I could be just me without being his wife without being a a daughter-in-law, without being a daughter, without being a mum. He just said, I just think you've lost something. You need to go find it, but you need to do it without us. And that's why I did Bake Off. And so it will always be more than a baking competition to me. Listen, he might have rubbish taste and bracelets, but your husband definitely has other qualities.

What an incredible thing. and he was so right and it's been so beautiful being part of your blossoming in a way we've spoken about how you felt sort of worried about raising boys but when you had your daughter how do you think you're raising your daughter differently than you were raised if you are I mean what what are the similarities and what are the differences they definitely know I mean there are some similarities but it's weird how they naturally just take and she just naturally makes her bed and she naturally just comes down and does the dishwasher and I'm desperate this child she goes to bed at 7 30 as well yeah she goes to bed at 7 30 I was having a conversation because we don't have a cleaner and I said to my

daughter I said I was talking to somebody a couple of days cleaner and I said to my daughter I said I was talking to somebody a couple of days ago and I said I really I feel like I'm at a point in my life where maybe I should get a cleaner maybe just once a month and she looked at me and she said what we're getting a cleaner and I said no no no I didn't say I was getting one I said I was thinking about it which I've been thinking about for years and I still haven't done it and and she said what well that means we're just lazy then and I said no't done it. And she said, what? Well, that means we're just lazy then. And I said, no, people who don't have cleaners aren't lazy. I just would like a bit of extra help. She goes, well, what are we here for? We can do it. And I was like, okay, because every Sunday,

we clean the house. We spend three hours on a Sunday, which probably is not, I mean, I know by the look on their face every Sunday morning, they know that they have to do the cleaning. And the look on the face is really sad. It's really sad really sad I can see it they just don't want to clean they just want to be sat on the couch and vegetate and eat crisps I know that's what they want to do but we've made it a thing where they have to get up and clean on a Sunday we dust everything top to bottom skirting boards light switches everybody cleans a bathroom. So the boys can now clean their bathroom, which is great. It's taken me a lot longer than it has with my daughter, because she just seems to naturally want to do it. That's what I've tried to step away from is

the fact that just because it feels natural to her to I don't know why I haven't raised them any differently. But I don't know why she naturally is more domesticated than they are and I don't know why that's happened because I've taught them all to do the same thing and so what I try not to do is fall into that because I was raised to learn to cook to clean the toilets and always be very domesticated when my brothers were not they were completely like work college education school whatever but don't you know you don't have to clean up around yourself you know food will be brought to you food will be taken away you know like really like just there's a hierarchy and they're definitely high

up I've tried really hard to raise them exactly the same but she's naturally weirdly more domesticated than they are or wants to do more stuff around the house but I'm definitely raising them exactly the same way but very different to the way I was raised there's no she has to do this job and you have to do that job they wake up every morning everybody has to get on with the dishwasher every night before they go to bed they have to hoover the kitchen floor and mop it they have to make sure the cat's litter tray is cleaned out they collectively I said I don't get who does the job it just needs to get done so just do it and I don't argue I'm like nope just get it done it needs to be I said this is our house we live in

it and that's why we never get I mean I have nothing against anyone who has a cleaner I just nature has given me some cleaners which I don't have to pay for so they do it I think you should do a parenting book next I mean this is really inspiring I love talking to you so much. And I know that I am going over time. So let's get on to your third failure, which is your failure to keep talking, ironically. Tell us why you put it that way. politics or about being raised in a immigrant household or being brown, being a Muslim woman, all of these questions, when really what I wanted to do was bake and cook and share my recipes. I remember at the very beginning, I really struggled with that because I kind of just wanted to talk about what I love to do and everything else just be incidental. We don't need to talk about everything else. You know, I'm a talker. We're going over time. We always go over time. And yeah, I've battled with myself so much growing up. Talking wasn't the done thing. Like girls didn't have opinions. Girls don't talk. You kind of do as you're told. You're not head of the

house. And so that was always kind of suppressed. And you know, when you are then a wife and a mom and a daughter-in-law, there's a hierarchy and there's a way of doing things and I found myself often quite suppressed in that situation as well and now I get to do this job where firstly a job that I never imagined in a million years I would be doing I never saw myself in this job no there was no grand plan to do this job and since doing it one of the first things that were highlighted was like my race my religion religion, colour of my skin, you know, like my background being first generation British. And I didn't want to talk about all of that. And I was quite happy a few years in not to talk about that at all. And then they understood. It took me a few years to realise why am I being asked these questions?

And often I would get really hit up. I'd get really kind of like, I'd really put my back up when you'd ask questions about, so why are you doing a Cornish pasty where did you eat a Cornish pasty well I've never had a Cornish pasty from Cornwall I haven't because I never used to go to Cornwall we lived in Luton we stayed in Luton that was it we didn't go anywhere else we didn't go on holidays we went on holiday to Bangladesh but we never went away anywhere but that doesn't mean that I can't make a Cornish pasty so it was that constant questioning that I really struggled with where I just kind of shut it down and said I'm not talking about that so I found myself suppressing myself again it's like where I wanted to speak I kind of found myself and it became natural to me to just

constantly suppress my feelings my emotions the things that I wanted to talk about and to talk about the things that were important to me. Fast forward a few years and here I am. And I wish I'd started talking from the very beginning. My failure to speak has been my biggest downfall. My failure to not speak up and to talk about the things that are important to me have been my downfall. Because that's the reason why I didn't go to university. That's the reason why I suffer even more so with my anxiety is because I suppress, I don't talk, I don't say, I don't talk about the things that are important to me. And so five years later, you know, I realized the importance of doing the job that I do now. I am a 35 year old woman of color, who is a Muslim first generation British woman who works in publishing who works

in television and I know that I would never have seen somebody like me on television or in literature or part of the narrative would never have seen myself and so every time I tell myself don't say anything suppress it don't talk about it I find myself then pushing myself and saying remember remember what happened when you didn't speak remember when what happened remember how you felt when you suppressed that and so every time I say that to myself I think about the feelings that I felt when I didn't say something or the effect it had by not saying something so I find it's really important to talk about the things that I think I shouldn't talk about, because often they're some of the most important subjects.

That's so well put. I wanted to ask you about that initial reticence when you were being asked, I imagine, by lots of journalists like me, questions that might be well intentioned. Yeah. But does it also feel a bit like, I've got to be really careful of how I express this, but does it also feel a bit like in an attempt to ask you about race and background, the attempt itself is a bit racist, it's a bit patronising, it's a bit like, oh, tell us how you live. Was there that kind of discomfort to it? I suppose it's difficult because we need to

talk about these issues and people need to understand and the only way you can understand and empathize and show compassion is to ask questions but you have to be so careful with how they're phrased I think yeah I think now what I've done is I just don't let them ask the questions I just answer it before they can even ask love it nobody's uncomfortable anymore because one of the questions I get asked all the time is what's your most extravagant purchase since you've won Bake Off which I find it's like asking me what council tax bracket I'm in like why would you ask why would I because like why would you ask that question because there's this image that I've come from nothing and I've suddenly made loads of money and I'm just buying houses and I'm buying a house and a car and

and people forget you know I have a husband that does a really good job and they're like does he even work and does he work anymore it's like okay so it's really interesting some of these questions I laugh a little bit on the inside and he's very much his own man he has his job and he he does his thing but this idea that I've come from nothing and now I have lots of money and I'm blowing it on jacuzzis and hot tubs and swimming pools is not the case and I'm really open about the fact that I am really really like my mindset hasn't changed very much I'm very much about like I don't do lavish or extravagant I shop you know on a Sunday at 3 30 yellow stickers and get all my veg at 3 30 on a Sunday because I pay

a lot less for them at that time of the day and so I think that's why I find it easier just to answer the questions before they're even asked because I don't want to make people uncomfortable and sometimes some of the questions ask I can't fully understand what what do they get from asking that question because I put it out there like does Nigella get asked those questions does Mary get asked those questions like what's the most extravagant purchase because I think there's this shock factor because I've come from supposedly nothing that when I buy a nice car or if I put an extension on my house that's like oh she's rags to riches story yes but would they ask Jamie that question would they ask Gordon Ramsay? And I'm not for a second saying I'm in any of their leagues,

but we work in the same place. You know, we basically work, our jobs are very similar. So I kind of put them under the same sort of, would anybody ask Jamie that question? Or Nigella or Mary or Gordon? Would they ask Nigel Slater? Would they ask them those questions? No, they'd be too uncomfortable to ask them,

but it's easier to ask me because it's easier to get the rags to riches story I have not come from a rich background we are very much working class and that is why I get to do my job and love every second of it and know that when I go home to my mum and dad and I can just go into their house and do their dishes and I can hoover their floor because it needs doing. And I can just be me. And I think that's why I love doing my job because I am just me. And you're not going to get a different version of me.

It's just as it is. So yeah, sometimes I find those questions really difficult, especially as a British Bangladeshi woman. I think I work in an industry that is very much dominated by middle-aged Caucasian men. And to be doing this job, I often find that that space was never created for someone like me. And I'm trying to fit into a world that was never meant for me. And that's always really hard as somebody who's creative and loves the job she does. I'm always second guessing myself.

I mean, my book has only been out a week and I'm already really worried about what people will think and if people will hate it. And it rips me to shreds, because it just, I worry about all of that, because there's only one of me. And I'm scared that the pressure of being here in this industry is so difficult sometimes, because I know that I have to stay here, I have to to be here because if I don't create space for myself how will I create space for others and that's why my voice more than anything is important to me right now and so failure to speak is not an option oh Nadia I know you're not going to but I just want you to be prime minister I know you're not going to go into politics but gosh no gosh no I still have a soul please it would be

a waste to be fair and by the way I absolutely love your book it's so wonderful and every single page on Nadia Bakes I want to make myself and the way that you are so able to take different elements of different cuisine and mash them up into something that sounds delicious like a seat kebab toad in the hole it's just second to none you're the only person who does that and I love it can I end on a different question then I'm not going to ask you what the most extravagant purchase was that you've ever made that wasn't on the list but but you just you just strike that one out yeah scrubbed it out I was like no she's not going to go for that one but it's more about whether you're hopeful for given everything that you've experienced the good and the bad the positive

and the negative the fame the people you meet in the signing queue and the trolling you sometimes get on twitter and on social media all of that together in the melting pot that is Britain are you hopeful for our future as a country that's a big question that one in three words or less please you know I can't do that we've already overrun we may as well make this a two-hour podcast let's just make this two hours I think we could keep going I don't know about you but I reckon we could I can go all day with you honestly I love listening to you all we need is some cake and we could just do this, couldn't we? If we were doing it in person, then I insist you whip something up.

Oh, always, always. We'll do it one day in person. Do I feel hopeful? I think in the last six months, we've experienced something that we have never as a country or a world really experienced or didn't think we would experience again or

certainly not in our lifetime and it's definitely I think allowed us some time to think about who we are and what we provide to our families and wider world the responsibility has weighed heavy on me I think it's weighed heavy on all of us because we had I'm sure every single person in this country has asked themselves what am I doing to help because our initial reaction is to protect ourselves it's like what am I doing to help and I think especially over the last few months where people have been I know there are loads of people who have been breaking rules and kind of meeting up and not worried about the rules and what the government guidelines are and I'm scared because I think a lot of us have lost hope in the government. And so we're all kind of, I feel like we're now making

it up as we go along. I think a lot of us are just making it up as we go along, as we send our children back to school, as we go back to work. I think it's a lot of, let's just make it up as we go along. Do I have hope for us with the Black Lives Matter movement and everything that's happened over the last six months? My faith in humanity in some ways has been restored and broken all at the same time because sometimes when you feel like you're in it together you realise that we're so far apart and something has to change and it's something my son said. My son said it's your generation that's destroying it for my generation. That made me really sad.

It dawned on me that actually they have no hope in us. They don't have faith in us. Not anymore. They just don't. So how can we have faith in us? But in saying that and that being quite sad, I realized that we have to keep going. We have to keep trying. We have to keep speaking and we have to keep speaking out. And that's really important. And that's if that is as little as we can do, that is what we have to keep trying we have to keep speaking and we have to keep speaking out and that's really important and that's if that is as little as we can do that is what we have to

contribute and I know given the job that I do I have a massive responsibility to people who relate to me people from my community women people of color Muslims all of that but you know what we have a responsibility to each other and I think if we can just start there then there is hope if we believe that we are responsible for each other and we have to look after each other I think there is hope I think there is room for a bigger better world and a happier world so yeah I am I'm hopeful I'm always hopeful if I wasn't hopeful I just talk about death all day and I am hopeful I am I am hopeful that we can change the world if not for us then for our children. Nadia Hussain, that is the best way to end this interview.

And also, I've just got a text from your publicist asking me to wrap up because your next interview is waiting. I'm so sorry to have overrun, but you are just the most phenomenal woman and I could talk to you for weeks on end. Thank you so, so much for coming on how to fail if you enjoyed this episode of how to fail with elizabeth day i would so appreciate it if you could rate review and subscribe apparently it helps other people know that we exist