How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - Sadiq Khan - ‘Had I known what it involved, I can’t say I’d have gone into politics’

Episode Date: June 26, 2024

Q. What connects the grandson of Pakistani immigrants, the son of a seamstress and bus driver,  one of eight children raised in a three-bedroomed council flat in Tooting, a human rights lawyer, former Labour Cabinet Minister, Liverpool football fan AND the Mayor of London? A. They are ALL Sadiq Khan. At 53, Khan has lived many lives - in his latest incarnation, he is the three-time London Mayor (although he says he wants to serve for six terms). Today, he joins me on How To Fail to discuss the personal and professional failures that shaped him - from being rejected as a teenage cricketer and realising the rules were rigged against him to protecting his family and suffering terrible racist abuse. He talks about struggling to belong in a world dominated by posh white public schoolboys and how he finally decided to accept himself. Plus: why politicians should be allowed to change their minds and why he still visits his mum every day. As always, I’m desperate to hear about your failures. Every week, my guest and I choose a selection to read out and answer on our special subscription offering, Failing with Friends. We’ll endeavour to give you advice, wisdom, some laughs and much, much more.  Have something to share of your own? I'd love to hear from you! Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com  Production & Post Production Manager: Lily Hambly   Studio and Mix Engineer: Gulliver Tickell and Josh Gibbs Senior Producer: Selina Ream Executive Producer: Carly Maile Head of Marketing: Kieran Lancini How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production.   Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Some of us love history. Others used to or never did because history was presented as nothing but the rote memorization of names, dates, and facts. Basically, the story got left out, and that made history kind of suck. My name is Greg Jackson. I'm a university professor with a PhD in history, and bringing history to life is my passion. That's why I created my podcast, History That Doesn't Suck. I want to teach you everything Thank you. and about so many other figures as their real experiences make industrialization, social movements, and even congressional debates and tax policy come to life. Subscribe to History That Doesn't Suck today, and join me, Professor Greg Jackson, every other week for a new episode, where I'd like to tell you a story. Welcome to How to Fail, the podcast that flips the traditional interview format on its head and asks its guests what they learned from the moments that things went wrong and what that taught them about success. Before we get to today's episode with Sadiq Khan,

just a reminder that you can join me for more How To Fail in our subscriber series, Failing With Friends. Every week, I get some extra time with my guests to answer your failures and questions. And it really is such a special atmosphere because I find that you see a different side to our guests because the focus is taken off them and put squarely on you. And very often they're incredibly surprised at how much advice they actually have to give. This week you'll hear more from today's guest, Sadiq Khan. One of my favourite politicians, he's a former US president and the reason why I love him is he failed to be the mayor and so the consolation prize was US president The And the reason why I love him is he failed to be the mayor. And so the consolation prize was US President Theodore Roosevelt. He came third, by the way, in being the mayor.

But he's got this lovely phrase, which is daring to fail. And we'd love to hear from you. Follow the link in the podcast notes to share your failures or questions. Sadiq Khan's life thus far has been characterised by defying the odds. He was one of eight children born to Pakistani immigrants, his mother a seamstress, his father a bus driver. He was raised on a council estate in South London, went to the local comprehensive and shared a bunk bed with his brother until he left home in his 20s.

When inspired by both the teacher's suggestion and the TV series LA Law, he went to study law at the University of North London. Kahn was a human rights solicitor for over a decade before entering the House of Commons as the Labour MP for Tooting. Then in 2016, Kahn beat the bookie's favourites to be elected Mayor of London with a whopping 57% of the vote. He became London's first Muslim mayor and was re-elected in 2021 and again this year. At 53, this also makes him the first London mayor to win a third term, although he actually says he wants six. Depending on who you ask, Khan is either fiercely bright, persuasive, cheeky and impossible not to listen to, or, if you're inclined to believe Donald Trump, a stone-cold loser. The two had a war of Twitter

words in 2019, but it is perhaps the mark of the man that most people, even his political opponents, have largely positive things to say. It's far better to be loved than loathed, Khan says. One of the things I always say to my team is you can be nice and get to the top. There's no excuse for bullying. There really isn'tiq khan mr mayor welcome to how to fail well can i book you now to do my eulogy uh i'm hoping it's not too soon but that's very generous thank you it's very sweet thank you so you mentioned in your intro that i've got my parents had eight children by the way thank you for mentioning my mom first that usually it's my dad and the bus driver for obvious reasons i mentioned it all the time during the campaign. My first mayoral campaign was against Zach Goldsmith,

who had a different upbringing to mine. So I'd mention often my dad. I always felt guilty for not mentioning as much my mum, but you mentioned her first, which is noteworthy because I've got two daughters now, so it's quite important to me in relation to women and their achievements. So my mum is fantastic. Is it really true that you want six terms? I want to carry on as long as Londoners want to lend and their achievements are always fantastic. Is it really true that you want six terms?

And I want to carry on as long as Londoners want to lend me their vote and give me their trust, being the best mirror I can be. How competitive are you on a scale of one to ten? There's eight children in my family. I've got three older brothers, one older sister, three younger brothers. And in a current household, if you want to be heard, you have to speak fast. Yeah, I am. if you want to be heard you have to speak fast yeah I am I'm also very competitive part of it for me I think comes from not feeling like I belonged is there part of you that feels the same quest to belong or in some way to be quote unquote accepted does that drive you yeah it's

not so much the accepted but I'm an outsider, for six months when I was a baby lawyer, I started speaking posh because I thought that's how you fit in. And so I can see the outsider parallel, but it's not because I'd approve myself or be the establishment. You just don't want to think that somebody else is better than you. And that's really important because actually, they're not as good as you think they were, and you're just as good. You know, going to cabinet, i started you know being the mayor you realize actually you know there's almost this trick where people who are successful try and give the impression it's

really hard it's very difficult because they want to keep all the goodies to themselves and it's proven to myself and more importantly others that listen if i can do it you can do it it's not that hard and that that may be what drives me why do you want to do what you do then so my grandparents were migrants my parents were migrants from pakistan as it was then to uh london i'm the first in three generations of khan's who will not be a migrant i'm staying in london born here raised here will stay here and that's because i've seen the benefits to my family of you work hard, you can achieve anything. You can sort of pompously say, you know, giving back or public service. But it's simply just, you know, trying to help others get the help that my family and I receive.

And that's one of the joys of this great city. And so I want others to also benefit. You mentioned your parents and you mentioned that your father was a bus driver. You made an amazing joke about that because you often self-deprecatingly refer to the fact that you spoke a lot about your dad on the campaign trail. But then you've realised that Sajid Javid and Saeed Awasi both have fathers who are bus drivers. And you said something like, you know, you wait for years for... You wait for ages for, you know, a politician who's a child of a bus driver.

They're not three coming at the same time. It's so good. That value of hard work is embedded in what you experienced as a child. What do you think is the most important thing your parents taught you about work? By the way, I'm very proud that my dad drove a bus for more than 25 years he worked all the hours god sends he'd do he'd offer to do overtime to make sure he had you know the remuneration to support his family my mum raised eight kids and was also you know i can picture the machine in the corner her making clothes piece

piecemeal you get 50p address and that embeds in your work ethic because if you're raised seeing people you love working all the hour god sends then there's a responsibility for you to do the same and so when i hear people criticizing migrants or immigrants say i sort of pause and say i've never met an immigrant who wants to come here and sit in their bum or claim benefits the whole point of traveling one two three four five thousand miles is because you've got to drive, you know, your role models, people around you doing stuff, and you want to emulate them. What's it like living in a three-bedroom council flat,

one of eight siblings? What are mealtimes like? You know, it's only when I was about 13, 14, I went to one of my mate's homes and realised he had his own bedroom. He had a desk in his room. He could do his homework really easily. Whereas, you know, literally we had no,

we had no desks in our home. We would do homework on the floor, you know, on the carpet. You know, I don't want, you know, any little, any violins out because I had a great childhood. We were very close as a family. We had a decent community.

It's only on high school that you realise the school I went to, a great school, was actually had a bad reputation, was known as being, you know, a fight school. Before I get onto your failures, your maiden speech in the House of Commons referred to your father and what he taught you from the Quran.

And so it also referred to your faith. And I wanted to ask you about that, but also how it felt because he never lived to see you becoming an MP. My dad had eight children, and I'm sure he loved us all equally, but in different ways. I think he would have got a real kick out of the fact that the city he chose to call home voted for one of his children to be the mayor it had been quite special to him and you know my dad was very religious as indeed my mum is as we try to be but it's important to me in my maiden speech to mention something about my religion because at the time it was you know there's a lot of conversations in relation

to religion faith identity and so forth and so the Hadith, Hadith is an Arabic word that means sayings of the prophet. So we believe the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, is the last messenger of God. We believe in Jesus and Moses and Abraham. So I quoted in my maiden speech, a saying, a Hadith of the prophet. And the saying is basically, I'm paraphrasing from the Arabic to the English, but you know, if you see an injustice or you see something wrong, you know, try and stop it. I think it was important for me to, I also managed to crowbar my daughter's names into my maiden speech as well.

Cause I was, cause people don't realize this, but when you do, whenever you speak in the house of commons, it's published, it's called Hansard. And so forever, there's a record of what you said.

So I was keen to get my daughter's names in the house of commons. I mentioned my daughter's names in my maiden speech and also this Hadith from the Prophet Muhammad. Please be upon him. Did your wife get a mention? I'm sure she did. Otherwise, I wouldn't still be married. Okay, fine.

Just joking. And Sadi, if you didn't, this podcast is far more important than that. Thank you. Your first failure is your failure to get picked for Surrey County Cricket Club as a teenager. When you asked me very kindly to be on your podcast, I was reflecting on my three failures. And reflecting actually on this failure, I realised that subconsciously it had a profound impact on me. It changed the way I think about things.

I was pretty good at cricket when I was younger. I used to play when I was a boy. I was pretty good at cricket when I was younger you know I used to play when I was a boy so from 8 I'd play on Saturday and Sunday and twice during the week I was

I say this with humility I'm 53 now so I can say this stuff I was a very very good batsman I was a good bowler not a brilliant bowler so Surrey County Cricket Club which is which is think of

if you're into football think of Premier League team it's cricket Premier League team, basically. And so I had trials with them and I wasn't successful and I assumed I wasn't good enough and that's fine. But I was so depressed and devastated. I didn't play cricket that year again. depressed and devastated i didn't play cricket that year again i didn't pick up a bat that year or indeed the next year or indeed the year after because i because i thought i was good enough but they thought i wasn't good enough so i wasn't good enough and i fell out of love with cricket i didn't play for a long time i look at who got in they're public school boys fair enough i'm not

wasn't a public school boy they had the right kit they had a coach present and they made sure they did the thing they were good at first so batting so i did both because it all round up what i should have done was not bowl just bat and there are other things i should have done take my teacher along get the right kit so forth and what i realized subconsciously about three or four years later i think because i was too i just didn't care in the first couple of years. I didn't play cricket anymore. Is I twigged that the way to get what I want, and it's not, by the way, being Machiavellian

or being ruthlessly ambitious, just recognizing the way things are. It's understand the rules of the game. If you want to get an interview with this firm that you love and adore, want to work for them, make sure your application is a certain way to be invited for an interview. Once you've got the interview,

you've got to recognise what things they might be looking for. Do you know what I mean? Yes. And so I realise, actually, only in the last few weeks, that that failure taught me more than all the other things I did later on because I realise now, you know, running to be a Member of parliament wanted to be in the

cabinet it's understanding what you need to do to get what you want and you know if i was 15 years old again again let's we've got to for this thesis to work you gotta assume i'm good enough in terms of talent and i had i known you know six weeks later what i knew three years later i'd reapplied for to Surrey Country Club six months later and try it again I never shared with anybody how upset I was I just I just said I don't fancy playing so I didn't tell my dad I didn't tell Mr Mayden my teacher at school I didn't tell my brothers and this is the first time I actually talked properly about what I learned from that I mean I was asked about it a couple of years ago when I went to Lords and I mentioned

it briefly then that, that started me thinking about why, because somebody asked me, why don't you try again? And I just, and I reflected on that and I was just, I was just gutted and I, you know,

I was devastated and it was too late by the time I realized what I should have done and what I could do to get in. And I love cricket, and I basically gave up on it. What kit did you turn up in? Really good question. So to play cricket, again, apologies, Elizabeth B, but you did... No, please, I am an ignoramus. So you've got to wear whites.

So you've got to wear white trousers, even white socks, white shirt, white jumper, and your own own pads you wear pads to protect yourself when you're batting obviously a box thigh guard gloves but when you go play for a club they always have the team kit and i'd always play with the team kicks i didn't have my own pads and stuff and so i'd borrow pads that were too big and um you know the thigh guard i'd wore outside my trousers inside my trousers because i didn't think how you look, your appearance matters. When I went there, I asked if I could borrow a bat, which is bat form.

You don't borrow somebody else's bat. And so, again, I was 15. What did I know about? Because when I played for the school team, we shared kit. When I played for the club, we shared kit. Or I'd borrow my brother's bat. And so, you know you got looked apart in cricket it does matter in because that's even more now you know the the unit squad is full of

i'm afraid public school cricketers because they've all the kit they've got the facilities they get better and better and better so and so appearance does matter hearing you talk about this, what I feel so keenly is that sense of rejection. And the rejection from a they, a committee almost, who had rigged the rules of the game against someone like you. I don't think it was rigged. No, no, but I don't mean like deliberately. I mean sort of institutionally, culturally over many, many centuries. And I wonder how much of your motivation

politically is to ensure that that game talking sort of broad landscape is no longer rigged oh without a doubt without a doubt so we so you know i use the privilege position i have to invest in a huge amount in sports and you know making sure people have the right kit, but also making sure the coaches understand that actually natural talent shouldn't be affected by how people look and stuff. And spot on. And cricket is quite, it still is, I'm afraid, quite an elitist sport.

And that's why initially, you see, and I thought about this recently because of preparing for this. Why did I start peaking posh when I first became a trainee lawyer? Because I wanted to fit in, right? And I realized actually one of my USPs was just being an ordinary Londoner. And actually what I should do is try and continue being authentically myself rather than trying to fit in.

And I think I tried to fit in because of my Surrey experience, right? Because you don't have the right gear. You know, nobody's going to, you know, give you new cases or award you a county cap if you're a maverick or, you know. And so this fitting in stuff is a double-edged sword because you've got to obviously try to make sure you don't scare people. But yeah, but I thought, so this, and same when I went to parliament. When I became MP in 2005, my best mates when i was newly elected were you know dawn butler black mp from from

brent emily thornberry a former lawyer from islington but i really liked other mps as well but you know who were former special advisors and so forth and so there's this this you know i've got two paths one is this path to be you know special advisor path and be that sort of person or two is be myself and i think i've hopefully fused both to try and carve out my own niche wherever you're going you better believe american express will be right there with you heading for adventure we'll help you breeze through security. Meeting friends a world away? You can use your travel credit.

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Where there's a will, there's a wake. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. Going back to you as a teenager you mentioned your school and it had this particular reputation as the ernest bevin school you were known as bevin boys because so badly behaved you grew up in the 80s at a time when the national front was still so evident in this country your experiences of early racism how do you think that has informed your outlook? If you've been in the receiving end of racism, or if you've been in the receiving end of any form of hatred to do with attributes you can't control, it could be your gender, it could be your race, it could be your religion, your sex, your sexuality, it's really difficult to explain

to those that haven't experienced it how it feels. In those days, the P word, if you're of Asian origin, the N word, if you were black, the Y word, if you were Jewish, if they were used, you knew there was going to be a fight because it's unacceptable to use that sort of language and stuff. And the great thing was, I grew up with white friends, black friends, Asian friends. There's a sense of allyship.

And so even though if one of my friends was called the N word, because he's black, we'd all jump in and get involved in the fight as well because you know he's your mate so even though you could say yeah but he's not saying anything bad against you no no no that's unacceptable and stuff and so it was really important to stand up for yourself because you know my my parents generation had endured a lot of racism my dad would regularly come back home after being racially abused he'd often one or two occasions been you know physically abused because of his race and on the bus on the bus driving the buses and stuff um and by the way one of the reasons why i love trade unions is because his trade union really helped him when

he was a victim of racial abuse on the buses and stuff. And so that generation, first generation migrants, endured a lot because they do, because they're so grateful to be here and stuff, right? And they don't want to be a nuisance. They don't want to, you know, rock the boat. And they will accept stuff because they think they are temporarily. And so they should be careful. Whereas if you're born and raised here, this is your country, man.

You will not tolerate and accept that sort of stuff. And so it did affect us a lot. But again, I didn't know any different. I didn't realize that, well, I must have realized, but I didn't really sink in that this was not part and parcel of other people's lives,

being the receiver of racism, being treated differently and so forth. And London, by the way, has made huge progress in the last, you know, during my lifetime. We've gone from, you know, when my dad first arrived, there were signs in guest houses, you know, B&Bs, pubs, saying no blacks, no Irish, no dogs. By no blacks, I mean anybody who wasn't white.

No blacks, no Irish, no dogs. Within one generation, we've gone from that to his son being the mayor of London. When you speak, you speak with such eloquence, but also such awareness of your privilege. And you use words like blessed and being humble. And it comes across loud and clear. What doesn't come across is anger. But I wonder if there was a stage in your life where you did feel angry.

Absolutely. I get angry now. So, you know, when you see racism, it makes me angry. And when I see racism, it makes me angry. And, you know, I was an angry young man, you know, when you see racism, it makes me angry. And when I see racism, it makes me angry. And, you know, I was an angry young man, you know, angry at the police for unnecessarily stopping and searching us, angry at racists, angry because I couldn't go to watch a football match. My brothers were Chelsea fans, supported Chelsea,

went to Stamford Bridge and were chased away literally by the National Front at the Shed which is part of you know Chelsea I went to Wimbledon to watch Wimbledon a few times I was racially abused

and so my only experience of football is watching it on TV or on the radio so I'm really angry I missed out on some real rich experiences

on the terraces because of that one of the reasons why I get teased why do you support Liverpool as a South Londoner is because

my only experience of football was watching them on TV and the radio and so forth and they were the great team at the time players I loved you know Kenny Douglas Ian Rush you know Alan Hanson so forth so forth you know and so that was my experience because I couldn't go and watch them watch teams live London teams live so I chose Liverpool and so it does make me angry in relation to the experiences people have for things outside their control.

And it doesn't need to be like that. And, you know, I think you can say in the same breath, there's been massive progress in the last 20, 30, 40 years, but things still aren't great. You know, the things still aren't great. But, you know, if you were to ask me, well, listen, Siddy, you know, is there any other country in the world you'd want to live? No. Is there any other country in the world you'd want to live? No. Is there any other country in the world you'd want to raise your daughters? No. But still things aren't perfect.

Final question on this particular failure. I want to know about your mum. What does she think of what you've done? So my mum has eight children. She has 23 grandchildren and I think she's got uh seven great grandchildren she's the matriarch of the family so my father passed in september 2003 and my mum so we've all so my mum's like the son we're basically all her children grandchildren live within a two mile

orbit of where she lives um i go see every day um do you yeah on the way home from work or in weekends yeah gosh you go and see your mom every day and you pray five times a day and you have an incredibly busy work schedule it's important you've got to you've got to honestly you only have one mom honestly she couldn't give a monkey's under the mirror honestly she tells me i've put up putting up the bins and you know why i don't spend more time there and where are my daughters and you know i talked about the racism i endured she must have endured racism right going down the road going to get groceries and stuff different culture different language she's wearing different clothes and so yeah she's i mean she's been through a huge amount for us she always says to me that i was i was the most difficult child in terms of giving birth to

me because she had a c-section she always moans about the fact that i caused her misery because of that so um i've always been the stressful one for her um but the joke in the family from me anyways i'm perfect i'm in the middle three older three younger so she got it right with me and i have great fun when people say to me you know because they know that asians have arranged marriages and stuff they said did you have i was yeah yeah i had an arranged marriage and i let them i said yes and you know and I, you know, it was decided when we were both teenagers and stuff. And so you really get, people get really hooked in. And then towards the end, if I'm being generous, by the way, when I say arranged, we arranged ourselves.

And basically because we've been getting that since I was 17, no other reason. Have you been going out with your wife since 17? Sixth form. Oh my goodness. So I told you, my school was a tough school, right? And I didn't realize that my school was a tough school until I started out with my wife. You know, Amal Rajan?

Yes. For those who don't know, Amal's presenter on Today program. He's written about this because he went to the school my wife went to. It's called Graveney School, right? Amal wrote a really good piece when I first became an MP. I was running for mayor saying, basically, look, you don't realize, I'm paraphrasing, so please read the original piece from Amal. But Amal said, listen, I went to Graveney School, a former grammar school, but this

guy Sadiq went to this really tough school up the road, known as a fight school and stuff. And so I'm paraphrasing against apologies. It's quite remarkable, but he's doing what he's doing because it was a tough school. He knew it was a tough school. But my story about Sadiq there is, the head of Graveney School was a guy called Mr. Stableton. And Mr. Stableton would walk up and down the road outside Graveney School, simply trying to stop Ernest Bevan boys coming to Graveney School. A, to go out with the girls from Graveney School. Another game rigged against you.

Quite. And B, to stop us fighting. And my wife and I met when I was in sixth form and she was in sixth form. And years later, I did a prize giving at Graveney School and Stapleton was still the head. And much to my daughter's mortification, who was in the audience,

because they then went to Graveney School as pupils. I said, listen, in a parallel world, Mrs. Stapleton's been successful and I never got to go with Sardia. And so thank goodness Stapleton is rubbish at stopping Bevan boys going to Graveney. But my wife and I met when I was in upper sixth in Bevan and she was lower sixth in Graveney.

Oh my gosh, how amazing. For some reason, I thought you met at uni. That's even better. We've got to get on. I mean, I could talk to you for absolute hours, but apparently you've got a busy job to get back to. So let's get on to your second failure, which is your failure to become an environmentalist until your forts tell us about that yeah i'm really embarrassed about this because you

know my daughters you know have been you know environmentalists passionate about climate change and equality for some time since they were little and and i haven't let me be honest i haven't and why not was that just because there were so many other things to worry about and it had never if most people are honest when they think about the environment or climate change, they think about it happening in the global south, sub-Saharan Africa, and a 20, 30, 40-year issue. They don't think about it being a now issue or why it's important. I mean, actually, you mentioned before we came to the podcast,

I've written about this in the book, this is me gratuitously publicizing the great book, Breathe, and paperback very soon coming to bookshop near you. It is a great book. Link in the show notes. But no, but, you know, I was the very first person

that Louise and Mike asked to be a partner in their firm. And Louise Christian and Mike Fisher, 20 years my senior, the firm we've been around forever. And they said, listen, do you want to be a partner? I said, I'd love to. And I negotiated, not a big pay rise, I negotiated a car park space. And our firm was in Tottenham Court Road. And by the way, I live in Tootinbeck,

it was probably quicker to get there by tube, 25 minutes, environmentally friendly, smart thing to do. But the point of the car park space story is because I wasn't really that bothered about climate change or the environment. I wanted to have a parking space to drive my car. Then a Saab convertible. Then I bought a Land Rover Discovery. And so my embarrassment is my interest and passion for the environment, for tackling the flight emergency, for cleaning up our air, only happened, frankly speaking, because I got sick. for cleaning up our air only happened, frankly speaking, because I got sick.

The way to, you know, enamor yourself to London's newspaper, Evening Standard, is saying yes when they ask you to run the marathon for their charity, right? I said yes, ostensibly because my staff said, this is the way you suck up to the standard, if I'm honest, right? Know the rules of the game. Yes. I run the marathon. We raise a lot of money for the dispossessed fund more than 20 000 pounds i beat ed balls and andy burnham very important am i competitive there you go but a few weeks and a few months later i have problems

breathing and wheezing and i'm diagnosed with adult adult onset asthma So I never had any problems before. And the adult onset asthma is attributable to air pollution caused by basically a particular amount of nitrogen dioxide. Nitrogen dioxide comes from cars. And the same things that cause air pollution causes climate change. And so that begins my journey of discovery in relation to what causes climate change,

what causes air pollution. And I'm in my mid-40s now, and actually there's no excuse why I didn't take an interest. Yeah, maybe I was too busy with other issues, but actually this issue also goes to racial justice and social justice. So there's really no excuse, and I'm embarrassed. It's a failure on my part. And so one of the things I've tried to do is to walk the walk

when it comes to you know explaining in an unpatronized way why it matters now to us you know in london or across the country and it really does i think one of the phrases you know i've used it in the book is i think the best politicians are teachers and so you know what i've tried to do is to explain why this matters to us of course course, it matters to the global South. Of course, it matters to the global majority and to Bangladesh and Sub-Saharan Africa. Of course it does. You've got, you know, places around the world which are now, you know, subsumed by water rising. But look at London, you know, last year temperatures north of 41 degrees Celsius. Two years ago, it was flash flooding, causing causing stations basement flats you know businesses to be uh flooded and every year until our policies came in around 4 000 people died prematurely in london across the

country around 30 000 died prematurely because of air pollution so i'm embarrassed that it's taking me you know until my mid-40s to understand this is a really serious issue but it is really serious so it is with and i think you know for those of your listeners that don't really think why it matters to them you know a car idling or somebody driving an older polluting vehicle or you know somebody not understanding you know how food is produced or you know why flying when you don't need to fly is a problem really just do your own research don't you know listen to a sermon from me do your own research and find out why it matters and you have walked the walk you've introduced euless scourge of black cab drivers everywhere um and you've done many many other things that have that have materially affected air pollution rates and part of this was because you came across the story of

ella adukisi deborah a nine-year-old who was the first person who had her cause of death identified as air pollution. Will you tell us Ella's story? There's two stories that are relevant to my passion for being a politician and what I'm doing now in relation to the climate change and air quality. One is the story of Stephen Lawrence that people don't know about. Stephen Lawrence is a black boy murdered in southeast london um by five racists and stephen's mum dorian brought stephen's case to the fore and people know about stephen lawrence because of dorian's amazing campaigning work and the family people don't know about uh ella and she's got an amazing mum as well called rosamund and i only discovered about

ella and rosamund once i'd become the mayor, even though Boris Johnson, the previous mayor, knew about it in 2013 because he did a report, but he buried it away. about her daughter and stuff. And it's, you know, and you've always got to take advice you receive with a pinch of salt and also understand people's prejudices because of the previous man and so forth. So I said, listen, what's the case? And it's a heartbreaking case

where Ella, who was seven when she started having problems wheezing and breathing, was put down to an infection and she was diagnosed antibiotics. It then transpired that she had serious asthma. The asthma was so serious that she had to be rushed to hospital. Her mother would give her CPR on a few occasions to bring her back.

But shortly after her ninth birthday in February 2013, she was rushed to hospital and she passed away, aged nine years old. And somebody gave rosamund the mum some advice which is to keep some of the tissues from ella before you bury her because you know it's inexplicable what's happened um and you may want to just do some more work as science advances and rosamund just fortuitously met this expert called sir stephen holgate who did some work on a pro bono basis. And there are some wonderful people in this country

who just do stuff because they're just decent people. And Stephen's a good example of that. And what he discovered was, on the days when Ella had asthma attacks, on the days when she was rushed to hospital, coincided with days where there was high air pollution caused by bad traffic outside and in and around her home. And so Rosamund then decided to campaign

for a second inquest into the death of her daughter because she now had new data linking air pollution, air quality with her daughter's illness and subsequent death. And I supported her campaign to get a second inquest. And she read history because it's the first time in history where air pollution is recorded in somebody's death certificate. And it's as big a game changer as 30 years ago, them discovering smoking can lead to

lung cancer. Because now we sort of, of course, smoking leads to lung cancer, but you very rarely see smoking on the death certificate. It says lung cancer, right? Or other illnesses linked with smoking. And I met Rosamund, this inspirational, inspirational mum. She's a mum first. Campaigner, advocate, champion.

And she changed my life. You know, she changed my life. But for the grace of God, you know, it could have been me that being Ella. It could have been my mum doing the campaigning. But also it could have been my daughter who'd been Ella. It could have been me that being ella it could have been my mom doing the campaigning but also but also could have been my daughter who'd been ella it could have been me having to the campaigning and you can't pretend the science isn't there you can't pretend rosamund isn't there you can't pretend ella didn't die you can't pretend that we know what causes air pollution but also we know is we know what reduces it let me see an amazing uh stat which i'm incredibly proud of you know when i was running to be mayor king's college did some research and they said it would take 193 years to bring the air in london within lawful limits because of

our policies we'll do by next year wow i wanted to ask you a bit about this reputation that you have, which I think is an unfair one, of being a flip-flopper. And I actually think that what you've explained so well with this failure is that there should be an opportunity to evolve one's thinking according to one's own education. Do you think there's enough space for politicians to be able to change their mind? I used to be a lawyer, and what lawyers do is follow the evidence. And so I think what makes a good politician is values plus evidence. What you don't want as

a leader, whether it's a leader of the family, a leader of your church, a leader of your country, is somebody who's dogmatic and ideologue. And so I think you should be pragmatic. I'm the guy that voted for a third-run Ray Heathrow. I'm not embarrassed to tell you that because it's true. But I've studied the science now. I've studied the evidence. My values, social justice, racial justice, plus the evidence says, well, that's a bad idea. And the same goes

with all sorts of things. I think somebody who just changes because the wind is changing direction, be careful of those sorts of people, you know. But somebody who changes because of the evidence changes, you know, it's worth actually giving a bit more thought. And there's various types of leaders, but there's two main types of leaders. One of those that do what I call fellowship. What is fellowship?

It's you follow the opinion polls. You follow focus groups. You just follow whichever way the wind is blowing. There's also a second-time leader that provides leadership, that tries to change public opinion. And you're very generous about policies around ULES and air quality. You know, I take some comfort in the fact that I think I've changed public opinion in London, right?

My recent election in May, you know, we managed to increase my vote. Never happened before, not just the third term, but increasing the vote as an incumbent because I think Londoners now support our policies because they understand why it's important to do so. So flip-flopping may be, but it's flip-flopping based upon evidence.

And I think, you know, I hope on occasions I provide fellowship because you've got to, you know, take the public with you, but sometimes leadership. Hi, I'm Jesse Tyler Ferguson, host of the podcast Dinners on Me. I take some of my favorite people out to dinner, including, yes, my Modern Family co-stars like Ed O'Neill. I had friends in organized crime. Sofia Vergara. Well, how do you want to be comfortable? Julie Bowen.

I used to be the crier. And Aubrey Anderson-Emmons. I was so down bad for the middle of Miranda when I was like eight. You can listen to Dinners on Me wherever you get your podcasts. The Frankies were a picture-perfect influencer family. But everything wasn't as it seemed. I just had a 12-year-old boy show up here asking for help. He's emaciated. He's got tape around his legs.

Ruby Frankie is his mom's name. Infamous is covering Ruby Frankie, the world of Mormonism, and a secret therapy group that ruined lives. Listen to Infamous wherever you get your podcasts. Your final failure is your failure to realise the impact that being mayor would have on your family. So when I first became an MP in 2005, or when you study the politicians when I was younger and when you were younger, the life of an MP was very different to the life of an MP now.

Forget for a second the mayor. So what do I mean by that? So when I was growing up, I never met my MP. But if I needed him, I would have to go to a surgery. He'd have one surgery a month. Or I'd have to write to him, right? That was the relationship we had with your MP. And there's a huge amount of deference as well.

There's famous stories about MPs 20, 30 years ago who hardly ever went to their constituency. They were always in Westminster. With deference reducing, but also with the advances in technology, you can now email your MP, their social media and so forth. So a number of things about this third failure is I think that's being an MP.

Being a mayor is a different stratosphere to being an MP in relation to. It's 24-7, seven days a week, you are never off. So you could be meeting the Commissioner of the Police, one hour, a major angel investor who wants to invest in London, another hour, a brief family, another hour, open a new business another hour, and so forth and so forth, right? So every hour of every day is different. Then you've got social media, then you've got the fact that, you know, as you said early on, because of my ethnicity and my faith, I stood out in relation to being the mayor. And what I didn't really appreciate is not just the 24-7, seven days a week,

365 days nature of the job, but the animus and hatred that come with me being Muslim or me being of Pakistani origin or me having my values. And so, you know, I think I let my family down because, you know, I require, you know, you've met them, you know, protection. You know, there's police officers whose job is to keep me safe. And so whether it's an armoured vehicle,

whether it's not having spontaneity, whether it's when I go to a restaurant with my family or go to a cinema with my family or go to the theatre or go to even a gig, there are police officers with me all the time. Yeah, they're in plain clothes and stuff, but it's very intrusive. I'm not asking you to feel sorry for me,

but, you know, had my kids and my wife and my family been incredibly supportive, but it's been incredibly hard for them, incredibly hard for them. And I don't, you know, for the first seven years of being mayor, I didn't talk about this much because my anxiety was I would put off others wanting to be a politician

because, you know, it happened to me in 2016 when I was, when I was first chosen to be the candidate, the source of pride in minority communities was huge. I have, you know, grandparents, parents, uncles, aunties, you know, saying how wonderful it is. They're going to encourage their kids to get in politics. By the end of the campaign, because it was a horrible, racist, Islamophobic campaign, they said, oh, I'm not sure now, because if this is what you've got to go through, I'm not sure I'd encourage my nephews and nieces to become a politician and stuff. But the reason why, you know, I've decided to talk about it is, is somebody said to me, you're in danger of gaslighting the public into thinking things are great hunky-dory when they're not but also you know i'm the one that you know goes home

and speaks to my daughters who've seen some of the crap on twitter or on facebook or on instagram or whatever whatever and stuff and it's it's it's hard it's hard i may have a thick skin you know i'm able to put up with it but you know it's not great I may have a thick skin, I'm able to put up with it, but it's not great if you're my wife or my daughters or my nephews and nieces or my mum or my siblings or you work with me or you're my best mates. It's hard because I'm being singled out

and it's not fair, but it's the reality of my job. And I think I thought about this hard, hand on heart you know had i known when i first began this journey of what it involved for my family i can't i can't unequivocally say i'd have done this i can't because it's been tough and it is tough and i think you know we need i think it's a conversation worth having is this really the price you've got to pay to be in a position of power and influence? Because a lot of talented people,

you'd want to be your MP, you'd want to be your mayor, you'd want to be your prime minister, you know what, it's not worth it. What do your daughters say about it now that they're in their 20s and they can reflect? And similar to what you were saying about your childhood i guess they were

so young when you started this political journey that maybe they didn't know that much different but what do they say now when it began it's a really interesting observation that you've picked up in your question which is first round to be the mp for tootin so you know my oldest you know anisa was um you know six and amara was four and they used to love it i'll tell you why because their dad would never say no in public because i'd lose votes right but then you know when they became teenagers and the profile raises and stuff it's hard because you know teenagers got their mobile phones and also you know kids try and protect their parents so they will not share with you because they don't want you to be hurt.

And what I find unacceptable is, you know, my daughters have had experience where people have, you know, DM'd their private accounts being abusive towards their father. It's unacceptable, but it's happening, right? But it's hard. My youngest daughter, who's very proud of me as well,

she doesn't want preferential treatment, you know, this, you know, NEPA, kids type stuff. So she was brilliant. I'm really proud of her her three years university none of her lecturers all her best mates that she lived with knew who her dad was and i went to a graduation that was the first time because she wanted to stand around two feet you know and i think that's that's brilliant and i think that comes from the work ethic that she's had watching us you know because she knows how hard mom and dad have worked and granddad and grandmother on both sides by the way she's not benefited from her dad being who it is but but because some people worked out who she is she gets some of the horrible stuff on her private social media i think it's

wrong but that's you know why we're gonna have the conversation because are we really saying that's, you know, why we don't have the conversation. Because are we really saying that's acceptable now for people in their private life, who haven't put their head above the parapet, are getting hate because of who their dad is? You know, and I think I've got no problems at all you criticizing me for my policies. We've had a discussion about, you know, my green policies or about policing or about fire or about, you know, housing and stuff. That's fair game in a democracy, right? That's how it should be. Robust debate, discussion, argument. fire or about you know housing and stuff that's that's fair game in a democracy right that's how it should be robust debate discussion argument but when it gets personal you know about my religion my ethnicity the nastiness i think that's a problem but also you know i think it's a failure

on my part not to say to them when i first run because i've got their permission and their consent you need that you also need their support because you know you know sometimes you've had a bad day and you go home you need your family and i try never to talk about work at home and it's a really important thing to do because you need your you want your family to be your family right there's no ears and graces and stuff but sometimes it does impinge on your family life because it's affecting you you've spoken in the past openly and in a courageous way about your own experiences with depression and ptsd i wonder how much of those experiences you think are related to having to handle this kind of hatred.

Listen, I think, you know, firstly, both as a lawyer, but also as the mayor, I've met people going through some really severe post-traumatic stress disorder. So, you know, I wouldn't equate what I'm going through with what they've been through. They've been the victim of crime, or they've been through torture as an asylum seeker or refugee. Not just the 24 hours a day, seven days a week nature of the job, as it is now in the 2020s.

It's very different to when the mayor first began in 2000, or very different to a ministerial job, which I've had, and so I know the pressure is there. It is all-consuming. And I really came to the fall during the pandemic because during the pandemic i was doing lots of work supporting londoners going through this crisis and as a professional said to me by the way city you're exhibiting you know if you thought about getting yourself checked out and stuff and i was depressed during the pandemic because you know i thrive on a variety of things which i didn't realize make me mentally fit.

So the things that keep me mentally fit, I now know because of the pandemic, because I stopped doing them in the pandemic, playing football with my mates, going out with my mates, going out with my family, going to a gig, going to work and mixing and mingling

with my colleagues, that sort of. What I didn't realize until the pandemic was, those things were keeping me well take those things away and i became unwell i mean i wasn't medicalized but oh yeah i'd lost my mojo i you know small d depression um and so now i know i've got to do those things to stay mentally fit just like we've got to do things to stay physically fit and i think we're going to talk about it because blokes don't talk about it ethnic minorities don't talk about it um and we know lots of men end up killing themselves and so you know i was inspired to talk about it because i saw the ultimate alpha male alistair campbell talking about it right

and to be fair prince william and harry talked about it as well. And, you know, I thought it was important, A, for me to explain why I'd lost my mojo. But secondly, I thought if I, again, this sounds really cringe, but if I talk about it, I'm hoping that just like Alice has given me courage, maybe somebody else will want to talk about it or get help. I think the other thing that you haven't mentioned, I think because you don't want to draw attention to yourself and you're probably too modest. But I know that when people suffer bereavements or people lose loved ones in something like the Grenfell Tower tragedy, you will give out your personal contact details and you will attend those funerals. And I can only imagine the toll that takes and the empathy that that requires at the same time as conducting a professional life alongside this personal connection. Yeah. I mean, I decided when I first got elected as mayor that whenever there was a bereavement

because of a violent death, I would come to Grenfell in a second, I would write to them personally, give my details and get in touch. So it's important for a variety of reasons, not least because, but for the grace of God, that could be me, my daughters, my nephews, my nieces, right?

And I'd want the mayor to reach out to me. It means I understand what they're going through, but I can try and change policy to reduce that. Grenfell Tower, I remember vividly June 2017. I remember getting the phone call. I remember seeing the images. And then early the next morning, I went to the tower. It's still on fire.

But let me be frank, that could be my family in that tower block. That could be my family in the tower block. That could be my family in the tower block. And so it's personal, not just the community, to the bereaved, the next of kin, it's personal to all of us who care about these things, but also those of us who are from a council estate, friendly speaking. And so, you know, I did go to lots of funerals

and the interesting thing about those funerals is they were in churches. They were in mosques. They were different denominations, churches. They were secular. And they were really, really hard for the family. So, you know, so I don't want to put myself in the same bracket. But they were hard, man, because you had families who had gone to bed thinking they were in their home.

Your home is, you know, where you feel most safest, right? And they never woke or they were awake. They rang 999, which is what you do when you're in danger. And they were given bad advice for a variety of reasons, which the inquiries got into and stuff. And it's hard. And so, you know, I would say in a respectful, humble way, I've probably attended more funerals than any politician, you know, we've ever had. Met more bereaved families than we've ever had. With awful terror attacks as well.

But it's important for me to do that because, you know, London has seen me as their leader. And I should be sharing the grief with them. I should be sharing the pain with them. You know, and it's important for me to do so because, A, you know, I learn every day, I grow as a person, but B, you know, they shouldn't be suffering in silence by themselves and my job is to articulate and advocate what they're going through and stuff and so, you know, it's hard but I think it's part and parcel of the job.

Final question, Sadiq, although you are staying for Fading With Friends, which is where you get to be agony uncle for listeners around the country. But my final question for this interview is what you think your dad would say to you now? I think he'd be really, obviously he'd be proud. To give you some context, when I was growing up, I never saw an Asian man in a suit going to work.

Because in uniform, yes, bus driver, train driver, factory worker. He wanted his kids to succeed, work hard at school, listen to your teachers, get a decent job, be a decent person. And I think it would have blown his mind to think that one of his kids could be a parliamentarian could be going to the cabinet could be the mayor or whatever one of the things i try and get across to young londoners and you know is to dream the impossible you know be ambitious i think he'd been proud of more proud of his city than of me actually he'd be more proud of london that london's chosen one

of his kids to be the mayor he'd probably be checking more if I'm praying five times a day properly, if I'm being a good parent, if I'm looking after my mum, those sorts of things. Because all this other stuff doesn't matter. This is all white noise. It's all about being a decent person, being good to your family, being a good human being and stuff. And, you know, I hope he'd think at this stage I'm passing the test. I'm doing okay.

I'm on the right path. He died very young. He died when he was 67. And, again, you know, you think about you and I both have friends who are north of 67. test i'm doing okay i'm on the right path he died very young he died when he was 67 and again you know you think you think about you and i both have friends who are north of 67 that's nothing right and so it's heartbreaking to get to meet my kids properly you get to see all these things that we're all doing and stuff but you know he's looking on from somewhere and he's saying to you keep taking your mom's bins out sadiq k, thank you so much for coming on How To Fail.

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