How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - Sara Cox - ‘So much good has come from the bad things that have happened to me'

Episode Date: July 17, 2024

Sara Cox is a broadcaster and author. You might have grown up with her on Radio 1’s iconic Breakfast Show. You might remember her being one of the first so-called ‘ladettes’ (and if you do, we talk about how much she hates this word in the episode). You might have read one of her bestselling books - she wrote a memoir in 2019, followed by two novels, the most recent of which, Way Back, was published in March. She’s now the host of the most listened to radio show in Europe: BBC Radio 2’s tea time, as well as being on our screens at the helm of the hugely successful TV books show, Between the Covers. But her upbringing was far removed from media luvviedom: she comes from a Lancashire farming family and spent her childhood shuttling between her divorced parents - her father’s farm and her mother’s pub. We talk about how these early experiences affected her and what she learned from her parents’ break-up. We also discuss her failure to farm, her failure to believe she’s ACTUALLY an author and an early career failure  to control Sacha Baron Cohen when he was a live guest on Radio 1 (and the media’s misogynistic treatment of Cox in the aftermath). As always, I’m desperate to hear about your failures. Every week, my guest and I choose a selection to read out and answer on our special subscription offering, Failing with Friends. We’ll endeavour to give you advice, wisdom, some laughs and much, much more.  Have something to share of your own? I'd love to hear from you! Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com  Production & Post Production Manager: Lily Hambly   Studio and Mix Engineer: Gulliver Tickell and Josh Gibbs Producer: Hannah Talbot Executive Producer: Carly Maile Head of Marketing: Kieran Lancini How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production.   Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Everything to Play For is back with a two-parter to celebrate Olympic Summer Paris 2024 on Mo Farah. Of all of the athletes we could have chosen, why Mo Farah? He's a distance running icon. He did the double-double, 5,000 and 10,000 metre gold at two Olympics. One of those gold medals for and part of Super Saturday, maybe the most famous day in British Olympic history. So, so much to talk about. Follow everything to play for wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to How To Fail, the podcast that flips the traditional interview format on its head and asks guests about moments that they failed rather than succeeded and what, if anything,

they learnt along the way. I just wanted to remind you that for the first time ever, How to Fail is going on tour and will be presented by HeyU, the home of reality TV. Each show, I'll have a very special guest sharing their three failures on stage so you can expect the usual uplifting hilarious and moving conversations. Tickets are on sale now. Head to fein.co.uk or follow the link in the show notes. You can hear more of us chatting and discussing your questions and failures over on Failing with Friends. This is the kind of thing you'll hear us talk about over there. So for me, getting older, the least of my worries, as long as all my bits of my body

touch wood work and are in fine working order, even if they're not where they always used to be, then I'm just grateful for that. Although Sarah Cox is best known for being a broadcaster and author, it almost didn't turn out that way. She comes from a long line of, as she puts it, farmer, farmer, butcher, farmer, butcher, people growing cows and killing cows. And her childhood on her family farm in Lancashire almost had her following in her ancestors'

footsteps. Instead, after growing up between her father's farm and her mother's pub in Bolton, Cox pursued modelling after leaving school and worked in South Korea, Milan and New York. After that, she became a TV presenter with stints on iconic 90s programmes such as The Big Breakfast and The Girly Show. But it was as a radio DJ that she found most popularity, presenting the Radio One Breakfast show for three years. Cox is currently the host of Radio 2's Tea Time, the most listened to radio show in Europe, as well as being on our screens at the helm of the hugely successful BBC book show Between the Covers. As well as broadcasting about books,

Cox writes them too. A well-received memoir in 2019 was followed by two novels, the latest of which, Way Back, was published in March this year. Way Back tells the story of Josie, a working-class northerner who leaves behind a middle-class North London life to return to her Lancashire roots after her 23-year marriage ends. On the social media platform X, Cox once said her favorite movie quote of all time was from Pretty Woman. Big mistake. Big.

Huge. Which is, I have to say, especially apt for this podcast. Sarah Cox, welcome to How to Fail. Sarah Cox Hi, that was so lovely. I had to say. It's so lovely to have you. It's actually very intimidating broadcasting in the presence of one of the great broadcasters. So thank you for gracing the How to Fail Studio with

your presence. It's lovely to be here with a podcasting legend. And that's the first time the phrase killing cows has been used in an intro to me. Thanks. A pleasure. I mean, your words just quoted back at you. I have to watch that. That's what's got me in trouble all these years, basically, the things I've said. What is your relationship with your own mistakes and failures, do you think? Well, I like to think, look, I feel like you just go on a journey in life and I try not

to have regrets. There's been so much good that has come from the bad things that has happened to me that I can only be grateful that that was the journey I went on. Like, I can't really have any regrets about any of it because it's all come out in the wash. And, you know, where I landed was quite, you know, a happy place to be in the end. And that wouldn't have happened if I hadn't have made little mistakes. I don't know. Is that an answer even? It is an answer. Absolutely. Yes.

You know what, I'm not very good at answering questions. I'm much, much more for... I like want to swap places and have like some, a piece of paper and a biro and be asking you things because it's really weird to be on the receiving end of it. I think I'm a I like want to swap places and have like some piece of paper and a biro and be asking you things because it's really weird to be on the receiving end of it. I think I'm a complete control freak. That's really interesting. I feel exactly the same as you, by the way. I do. I prefer being on this side as well. So thank you for trusting me. How long have you been a control freak for? Is that a lifelong thing?

I always fooled myself. I just told myself that I was very laid back. My mum used to always say, if you're more laid back, you'd be horizontal. And I think that something's happened over the years, or maybe it was always there. Maybe when I was little, youngest of five, traipsing around after my siblings, maybe I didn't really have any control then. You know, as a teenager, what was happening to me, early career. So now I feel like over the past couple of decades or so, I've become really quite controlling, I think, of my environment and of what I do. And because I'm a forever frustrated perfectionist,

because I want things to be great and perfect, but I can never quite make it that way. So I'm always in a slight state of not disappointment, but miffedness. Yes, or tension. Because sometimes that tension is what motivates you as well. So it probably gives you a lot of drive. Yeah. And I grew up, my mom was always, she would always be saying if I just had another hour or so in the day. And that's what I feel like that, you know, I should have that tattooed on me somewhere because that just sums up my attitude, which is crazy really, because I get a lot done in a day. Don't know if it comes from my radio head. I like back time my day, you know, by 10 o'clock, I should be on the horse. Your Allred Your horse Nellie.

Nellie Yeah, lovely Nellie. Heather Nellie Nellie who gets a shout out in your acknowledgements for way back. I mean, you said it's the first time I've mentioned Killing Cows, the introduction to How to Fail, but that's possibly the first time a horse has been acknowledged in a novel. Nellie I hope it is. Yes, she has to have some credit for providing, like I say in the acknowledgments, you know, just a moment to breathe and look at the skyline. And she provides that every day. I've been up there this morning.

Really? Hence the fringe wash. That's why you're so glowing and gorgeous. So that idea of trying to get more into your day, I wonder if it also has its roots in being working class. And one of the things that I thought you did so well in Wayback is you write about these telltale nuances of class. So Josie is married to someone who comes from a class. I mean, I sort of hate talking these terms because it's a bit inelegant, but he's had a very privileged upbringing and he doesn't really question it. And he's got this kind of nonchalance about life and spending money. And she's always more aware of what money means in terms of value. How much of that was taken from your own experience?

All of it. Every bit of it was, you know, my husband's just started reading my first novel, Throne, and he's had to stop because He started and he was like, oh babe, I'm so proud. And I'm like, thanks for dipping into it. It's been out for a while, but I thought it was kind of cute that he downloaded it on his Kindle. He'd not read it before, but he's had to stop because he's like, there's so much of you in this book, and it's kind of making him paranoid because there's a lot of dissatisfied women in my books. And he's like, and he can really hear my voice in there and very much so with way back, you know, my husband is incredible and he's my best friend. And when you've been raised working class and when you've seen your own mom hold down to, my mom hates me talking like this by the way, because we were so happy. I do go a bit Angela's hashes.

My mom's like, pack it in, it was fine. But I'm just so proud of her, because she works so hard and I saw that throughout my whole life. So it really comes from a place of pride in my mom's toil and hard work. But when you grow up seeing, especially your mom work so hard, you have this fear of the roof not being over your head anymore and falling behind on payments for things. And luckily, I, I just, and luckily I'm still touching wood. I'm not in that position now, but I just feel like that's my biggest fear. And I think that's why I just work and work. And my husband will say, it's fine. You don't have to do the advert for tobacco. And, you know, he's like, you don't have to, it's

fine. And I've just got this instinct in me to like slightly twitchy-eyed, like, no, I've got to keep working. When there's work, you've got to do the work. And that's very much from my upbringing, just the work ethic that my mum had. Have you experienced classism in the industry that you then found yourself in? Not in the industry, but I think just in general life, I feel like, you know, Josie in the book, you know, she comments about the chitchat with like the school moms at the pick up time. And, you know, even though I made some great friends amongst the school moms, there was also a, I found, and this sounds awful, but there was also a lot of women with a lot of time on their hands. There's a lot of WhatsApp groups going on and there's a

lot of, and it made me feel a little bit of a failed mum that, you know, I wasn't freshly baking, you know, 300 red velvet cupcakes for the, because I was working. I was trying to do 32 other things that day. So I couldn't just be this serene, mothering goddess who could just, you know, always be there, all the parents' coffees or whatever, because I was kind of always going off to work. But the northern and the class thing, especially the northern thing, is something that's just sort of, when you live in a different place to where you were raised, your accent is different. So you're always going to get people doing a little bit of your accent

back here, which is, you know, it's fine. I get the odd cabi, but then I'll do their accent, you know what I mean? The cabi going, where are you from? You're from Yorkshire, yeah? And all that. Oh, that's absolutely fine. One of the very interesting things that you also do with Wayback is you portray an amicable divorce. And it made me realise how rare that is in culture, to have that kind of cultural portrayal. And I wondered again, like how much that was informed through your own experience, not only as someone who's been through a divorce as a vibe by the way, but your parents were divorced too. So how important was it for you to reflect the reality of? It's interesting that you say that's unusual in a book and I've had a few

people say that to me and I'm quite pleased because I think it can happen like that. I think people can just fall out of love and love each other still, but they're not in love. And I just wanted to explore that a bit, although it's the opposite of, maybe I was trying to- Ritki The wish fulfilment. Anjuli Yeah, a little bit, I think. You know, my parents had a really tough time when they divorced. And in the 80s, you know, it was, they really struggled for years and years to be, they couldn't be in the same room and, you know, it was, they really struggled for years and years to be, they couldn't be

in the same room and, you know, at family weddings and things like that. But it took a long time. It was my sister's wedding, so I must have been sort of 23 or something, the first time I saw them in the same room. And before that, you know, it had been lots of sort of, you know, messages to and fro, you know, from my mom to dad, you know. I guess, you know, I think, I think this isn't really, it's not my story to tell, even though I seem to be blabbing on about it. But, you know, I think my mom was heartbroken and I think she was angry. And I think she found herself in a situation and, you know, divorced from the man that she loved. And I think quite rightly, looking back now with my grown-up eyes in on, she, you know, she was pissed off that she'd been treated badly. And that, you know, she was

in the situation that she was in. So I think it was hard for her to, you know, paper over the cracks and to pretend it was all okay because it wasn't. I am a huge fan of second marriages. Oh, me too. Oh, God, thank God. That was so good. I know.

You really appreciate when you have a partner in life, like you're a team together. It just means so much. And I'm really grateful for it. And at first, I think there was an element of that where we'd be like, you know, I'm not good just because I'm better than that one, you know, and that gives me the fear, like I have a physiological reaction to the thought of if, you know, I hadn't met him, and if I was still in the old situation. He did say to me this morning, Ben, he said, he said, you're, you're my favourite wife. And I said, you're, I said, you're my favourite

husband so far. Keep him on his toes. That's so lovely. But he's lovely. Yeah. Okay, let's get on to your failures. So your first failure is your failure to control a guest and it's to do with an Ali G interview when you were presenting the breakfast show on Radio 1. Tell us the story. So the year was 2002 and I was... Which is over 20 years ago now, which seems completely unhinged.

I know. It's so crazy. And I was so young. I mean, when I... So I do the math and I'm like 27, but I feel when I look back at that time, and particularly that day, I feel like I was so young and I was definitely really unprepared. And actually mistakes were made, you know, the interview shouldn't have been allowed to happen as it did. We were way too trusting of basically Sacha Baron Cohen, aka Ali G, because he wanted to do this interview. He was promoting, I always thought it was to promote his film, but it was to promote a single that he did with Shaggy. Matthew Becker Mr Bombastic himself.

Anna-Maria Mr Bombastic. And Ali G came on to the Radio One Breakfast Show and we had obviously seven or eight million people listening. And the whole vibe with the Radio One Breakfast Show and we had obviously seven or eight million people listening. The whole vibe with the Radio One Breakfast Show back then was, it was kind of chaotic and kind of wild and fun and loose. We wanted to make people laugh first thing in the morning and that sort of element of chaos was kind of all part of the energy. And he came on to promote the song.

And because he was being interviewed in character, he wasn't being interviewed as Sacha Baron Cohen, he's being interviewed as Ali G. So what happened was, he provided us with the questions and then he'd written a script for his Ali G answers, which looking back now is, I just don't think we do it now. Or if we did, we would, well, as they say, lessons have been learned. And now it would probably be a pre-record if it was with a character who was trying to get as much publicity, who was a controversial character already and was trying to get as much publicity as possible. So anyway, Ali G comes in, you know, and he's got all the yellow and he's got the tash and the, you

know, all that stuff. And we do the interview and my questions are really quite simple and his answers are kind of near the knuckle and a little bit racy and a bit cheeky, but it wasn't that outrageous for breakfast. It was fine. And then I ask him a question and he starts to answer. And what he does is he pretends that the gag is, the conceit is, is that he doesn't want to swear live on the BBC, so he spells out a swear word instead. But he spells out the wrong bit and then says the swear word, so that's the gag. He spells out the word mother, M-O-T-H-E-R, and then says, clear as a bell, fucker. And at that point, like, just the world stopped spinning for a second. It's like, it's just like, no, like, and I, I can't believe he said it. I looked to my producers and they just look shell-shocked and

kind of giggle nervously. I kind of laugh. They played it back a couple of years ago when there was a big Radio 1 anniversary and I happened to be on a train and I happened to be tuned in and still it made me just feel so sick and so out of control. And I think I just sort of say, oh, and you hear me go, this is your fault, you tell it. And I'm talking to my producers, because I don't know what I'm doing. I'm just flailing around. Like, I don't know what I'm supposed to do. I kind of, I obviously know it's wrong. And I need to somehow stop the interview. What do I do? And I think eventually I play a record and then I think he leaves and then afterwards I sort of say sorry. The headlines the next day, it was very much completely my fault.

It was all on me. There was nothing on me. I mean, he was just described as, you know, comedian Sasha Baron Cohen, you know, his outrageous comedy creation and his character Ali G that did it. You know, there was no sort of shame put on him for stitching me up, essentially. He really stitched me up. And I think, I don't know Sasha at all and you know, I'm sure he did it because he wanted publicity and it really, really worked but it really did me in. And when I left the studio, because at the time I was like married to a DJ and I was really into clubbing and stuff and I had on a t-shirt that says, that just said, we were really into clubbing and stuff. And I had on a T-shirt that says,

that just said, dirty, dirty house music on the T-shirt because it was just any other normal day, you know, you go in and whatever. And the next day, the paps had been waiting outside when I'd got out after the show and they'd cropped the picture. So it just said dirty, dirty on my T-shirt. Dirty, dirty girl, it's all your fault. You know, it was a man who'd come in and had just, you know, shouted fucker on a live BBC show. It was just, it was really tough.

Yes. I mean, I think what comes across so clearly there is the amount of pressure clearly there is the amount of pressure you were under, age 27, at the helm of, and we can't overstate for anyone who doesn't remember this or wasn't born then, like the level of fame that the breakfast show itself had, the level of kind of cultural importance it had in those days. Yeah, it was huge. Huge. it had in those days. Yeah, it was huge. Huge. Because, you know, people still, people were just listening on their radios, you know,

people weren't streaming. It was a real, it was a real sort of appointment to listen. The radio on breakfast show was huge. And I mean, it's still big. Any breakfast show is big. It's always the shop window to any station. But back then it really was. And he was a huge character. And a big guest for us to have. And at the time I didn't feel

too young to be handling it, but looking back, it never't have been because we all know, you know, it's 20 years ago and it was a different time. But when I looked back at the cuttings in advance of this interview, how you were spoken about, written about in respectable newspapers, seemingly respectable newspapers, there was one in particular that said Cox, who is known for her lewd on air antics. Hang on a second. In the context of this, there's one person who's being quote unquote lewd, which is such a Victorian word anyway. And I was like, that's not my memory of what you were like as a presenter. You weren't lewd. You were hilarious and funny and witty and all of those things. But it felt like as a culture, we could not compute that a woman could be doing that.

Yeah. And also it was him. He was the one who'd said that on my show and I was the one who got the kick in the next day. A lot of the headlines were like, Cox forced to apologize. Cox apologizes for, you know, and it was all about like how I'd messed up rather than what he'd done to me. But yeah, I mean, it'd be wrong of me to sit here and to, you know, there were occasional times where I would push the envelope a little bit and I would perhaps be fruity, but I would always do it. It would always try and be to get to a gag and to try and make people laugh. It was never just for the sake of it. And I always really liked to be to get to a gag and to try and make people laugh. It was never just for the sake of it. And I always really liked to be really open with my listeners. And I think that's what

people were quite charmed by and what they enjoyed was that I was quite real. They didn't know what Boxster put me in basically. That's been the story of a lot of my career where they just couldn't quite work out, hang on a minute, how do we label you then? Oh, you've got a sense of humor. If it was a man, they'd be, again, they used for Sacha Baron Cohen, I'd probably be more outrageous or outspoken or controversial or whatever. But instead it was, to your point, these Victorian, lewd and rude, vulgar kind of. I want to come back to this, but I want to ask first of all about the term ladette. Yeah.

Which is, that's when I came of age as well, like that time. Yeah. Which at the time felt really freeing. It felt really freeing seeing you and Zoe Ball out in your slogan t-shirt sinking pipes. Yes. Because again- We did it for you. Oh no, thank you so much. It sort of showed that there was a different way of being a woman. But it also came with so much baggage. So how do you feel about that term now?

I kind of hate the term, but I've always hated it. But I think I just hate it literally of that collection of letters where they've cobbled together the word ladette meaning, because I hated, if they'd come up with a brand new word that didn't have the word lad in it, then it'd be fine, which meant women spending their own earnings, having fun, going out with their friends, having independence, not being afraid, not worried about being glamorous or feminine or ladylike, but actually just being themselves and having a laugh and being really good mates with other girls and supporting you. If they'd come up with a brand new word, then I would have been... So the vibe of Lada, the fact that they tried

to minimize, you know, to try to just hold us down a little bit with that was that you're just trying to be like the boys. And we were never trying to be like the boys. I didn't, that to me, that didn't, that didn't make sense. Like I'm the youngest of five and my two older sisters, especially my eldest sister, you know, she always had good girlmates. She was, when I was little, I grew up, because she's like 12 years older than me, I'd got, you know, she always had good girlmates. She was all that she was when I was little, I grew up because she's like 12 years older than me. I'd got, you know, when I was little, she'd be going off with her pals to Blackpool. And my mom always had great friends, you know, and would know how to have a good time. So I felt like we were just doing

it in the public eye and they just suddenly had to cobble together a label. And that's what they they came up with. So I don't like the word L'Adette, but I'm proud of that time that we were able to just be ourselves and have fun. But the interesting thing with the Ali G thing is that it was 20 years later, so that was 2002. That was 2002 and then 2022 I'm on All Requests Friday on Radio 2 and it happened again where somebody came on and swore, but I knew exactly what to do. Because after the Ali G thing, I think, you know, I think that it almost became like a

rule of what to do when this happens. In fact, I know that, you know,, I know that the bosses had to suddenly think, okay, because I don't think it was an issue before. When you've got live radio, if people are going to come on and try and swear, we have to have some guidelines about what DJs are expected to do, the pattern that you follow, the actions that you take immediately.

I think that was explored and decided on in the wake of the Ali G thing. So, you know, when campaigners get a law named after them, it's a bit like the motherfucker law, the Sarah Cox motherfucker law. And it is that you apologize, you have to stop the guests, they can't be on the show anymore. You've got to apologize, you've got to play a song, you've got to move on. When it happened 20 years later, I do all requests Friday and someone rings up. Do you know about this? No. Oh. So we've got an amazing phone answerers, the phone operatives, they come in, they're brilliant

answerers, the phone operatives, they come in, they're brilliant. And they get all the details and it's a request show. And it's every single link, you're speaking to a different caller. And this caller gets put through to the desk. And there's a, looking back, there's a couple of moments, he says one of his kids is called Boris, right? And it rings and when I think back, I'm like, at the time I was like, huh? But you're live and it's fine and people are nervous how they speak. And then he said that he had a, I think he said he had a son, but then he said kids. And then it just like, it didn't quite tally up, but you know, you're live on air, it's radio too, it's all Request Friday, it's all vibes. So he asked for Queen, Don't Stop Me Now.

And then we're chatting and he's like, yeah, Queen, Don't Stop Me Now. And I'm like, okay, whatever, you know, Lewis, whatever it's called. And then he goes, oh, Sarah, and I'm like, yep. And he goes, Matt Hancock is a cunt. And so... Look, and this is my reaction. I feel terrible on my radio. Yeah, because you laughed at that. So you have to not, presumably you have to not laugh. Well, I mean, to be fair, it's fine retelling it because it all went okay. In the moment,

now especially, the last thing you want to do is laugh. Like afterwards, it's like a time, like, oh my God, you know. So in the moment, and when you listen back to the clip of the Matt Hancock moment, I say out loud, I commentate on what I'm doing basically, because I know the rules so well by now, that I sort of go, sorry about that. And I immediately pulled down his fader so he can't say anything else. So I've cut the caller off and I'm like, I'm really sorry, it's live radio. I know this kid's listening. I'm really very, very sorry about that. And I play a song and move on. and I was so calm and I knew exactly what to do and it felt really nice cause it was, it'd come full circle. It was 20 years since, you know, the debacle

with old Sacha Baron Cohen and it had come 20 years and it felt really nice to be that in control. And, you know, on socials, people were really nice about it and, you know, they socials, people were really nice about it. And, you know, they were tweeting the clip and it got in the papers, but it was all because it was all handled well. And it felt really nice. It just felt like the learning, yeah.

The first time it happened with Ali G, did you feel a sense of shame? I'm getting the sense that you didn't, you weren't necessarily that supported at that time. Yeah, I actually in myself didn't feel any shame at all. I felt like people thought I should have been ashamed because they tried to pile all the blame on me, but I could kind of see through it. I kind of knew that I had not done anything wrong. You know, I hadn't sort of poked and prodded him to that point and dared him and

encouraged it. I was just such a sitting duck because it was all scripted for his side and not for mine. Wherever you're going, you better believe American Express will be right there with you. Heading for adventure? We'll help you breeze through security. Meeting friends a world away? You can use your travel credit. Squeezing every drop out of the last day? How about a 4pm late checkout? Just need a nice place to settle in? Enjoy your room upgrade. Wherever you go, we'll go together. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash ymx. Benefits vary by card, terms apply. When you're working out at Planet Fitness, it's a judgment-free zone, so you can really

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Tell us about this. I mean, where do I start? Well, I guess it's a tough one. When I was younger, I'd be like, I felt like the world was so my oyster that even through my 20s, definitely, even through my 30s, I thought I could still be, I might be an oceanographer at some point. I might live in New York, I'll probably have a place in Madrid and I might retrain and be this. And then it dawns on you that actually you're probably not going to do those things. And the biggest thing for me that I always thought I would do would be, you know, was that I'd be on a farm. And when I was younger, I always thought I would, it sounds really bad because

I always thought I'd be a farmer's wife, which is interesting. So not a farmer, but actually married to a farmer and supporting them on the farm. And it being a joint venture, you know, and I would have that lifestyle where, you know, I would be the one making a big pile of hamburgers and going up the field with it during haymaking. And I think that just goes back obviously to what I saw with my dad and with my childhood and everything. We never grew up in the middle of the countryside. My dad's farm is on one side, it's countryside and on the other, it's sort of like an estate, you know, it's kind of semi-rural. So it's not like I'm in the city and I'm like a country mouse in the city, like, terrified.

But I always thought I'd have, I don't know, more space and I'd just be, you know, on a farm maybe. There was five of us and none of us have farmed. And I think that's quite sad. And maybe because I was the youngest, I thought maybe it would fall to me eventually. You know, my dad's got his farm and he's a tenant on this farm. So it was never that thing of like the farm will be handed down and there's thousands of acres somewhere in Sussex that's yours. Yeah. You know, it was always quite a small working farm and still is now. My dad's still on there

with support for my brother. So, but you know. Is there something about the rhythm of farming that you liked? The way that the day was parceled out? I'm probably quite rose-tinted about farming. You know, there'll be people who farm, who'll be listening, like you have no idea love, do you know what I mean? Because I know that it's a real vocation and maybe that's partly, maybe it's more that it's in my blood and that's what just drives me to want to do it in some form. And I hope to, at some point, maybe, you know, the battle is on to try and get a little place with a bit of land somewhere

out of London. I don't know if I'll ever do it. I don't know if it's the rhythm or more the kind of the realness of it. I never finish a radio show and then step back and hands on hips and go, that was good. You know what I mean? It's kind of much more, it's hard to pin down where I just like the practical, you know, the practical side. And I love farming people. And I love horsey people because I feel like they're no nonsense. And maybe that's, that's where this comes from a little bit as well. When you work in TV for a number of years, you feel, you know, I feel like I've been dicked over and lied to a few times. And I feel like I've been promising and then haven't got them. And you feel like sometimes a creative career, you can get a bit of a kick in and it doesn't seem that honest. And

I feel like farming and dealing with animals is more an honest, you're dealing with animals who are just more trustworthy. Yes, that makes total sense. Yeah, does it? Yes, that's such a beautiful way of expressing it. Yeah. Talking of your career and the media industry, did you lose your job on Radio 1 when you were on maternity leave? Isn't that illegal? I mean, oh God, don't, I know it's tricky. So I did the breakfast show and I wasn't in a very good place marriage-wise and I wasn't in a very good place health-wise, as in like looking after myself. I wasn't partying the whole time, but I was married to a DJ. We were out every

weekend and I sort of flipped my body clock. We'd be up all night and then I'd have to click back into being up early to go to work. And I then fell pregnant with my eldest Lola. You know, and this is why it's hard to have regrets because I had a crappy marriage, but the very best thing came out of it, which is my eldest daughter. So you can never regret these things. She's the happiest result that ever could have come from that. I'd lost the breakfast show, radio on breakfast show, you know, and I had to my eye off the ball a bit, you know, I wasn't, it wasn't... When you do the breakfast show, it has to be your... What's that speech in Four Weddings and a Funeral? He was my...

AC My North, my South, my West, my East, my West, my Sunday best. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You have to be, you know, you have to give it your everything if you're doing such a big show. That's how it felt back then. And I just didn't give it, you know, I think towards the end, I started to lose listeners and I was reassured that it was fine. But you know, they binned me off and Moyles got, he was waiting in the wings. He'd made it very clear on air that he wanted that gig. And he's, he's, he's a mate now, you know, and fair play. He was ambitious and he got. And he's a mate now, you know, and in fair play, he was ambitious and he got it and he did a great job with it. But gosh, it really took the wind out of my sails. But it was fine. Everything's fine. I'm pregnant. It's fine. I've got this new focus.

So I start doing drive time. But I think even then, I was, because I was pregnant, you know, I didn't throw myself into drive time. Or perhaps I did and it just wasn't great. Anyway, I go on maternity leave, I have this beautiful baby girl, I'm completely blessed. And then the boss came to see me and told me that I'd been demoted to weekends and that I'd lost my drive time show. I've got to be honest though that he was a good guy and he was my boss and if I saw him in the street now I'd still give him a hug. He was a really nice guy and I think he had to do a tricky job and come and tell me but I think it could have been done differently.

I mean, again, different times, but not that different. Different times, but yeah, you know, because I was all over the place emotionally. So then I went back and I went back to weekends and I made a good job of it and we did good shows and I did, you know, it was a shame to be working weekends, but I joke about it now. My career glitches, I could kind of say, it was because I was so dedicated to spending more time with my children. Because those moments just happened to... well, did they happen? They were sort of timed around the kids, really.

I was definitely doing the school run and the nursery run. Near enough all of the childcare then I would get help because my husband was at work. I'd get help when I needed to go into work on different days during the week and then if not, I was off at the weekend working on Radio 1. I did, you know, I've joked about it, but you know, the squirrel at the start of all the Ice Age films is clinging onto that bloody nut. That know, I've joked about it, but you know, the, you know, the squirrel at the start of all the Ice Age films is clinging onto that bloody knot. That's how I've, that's how I felt sometimes with my career. How does it feel now that you, from an outside perspective,

are enjoying a phenomenal degree of well-earned and wholly deserved success, you know, between the covers, the greatest book show we've probably ever had in terms viewing figures and cultural conversation, and you're turning 50 this year. How does that feel at this stage in your life? It feels pretty good. Good. Gotta be honest, Elizabeth, it feels great. I'm loving it, but I feel like I'm so different to how I was back then. Obviously, everybody changes as they get older, but I feel like I know my worth much more these days. And I feel like I can acknowledge that I'm a good broadcaster and that it's

very, it's the best job in the world. Tea time on radio too is the absolute dream job and it's really what I wanted to do more than anything. So I feel like it's a real golden time and I love it and I work hard at it. You know, I wake up, definitely one of the first things I think about right away is the show. So you're claiming your power and you said there that you are just about willing to admit that you might be quite a good broadcaster. That's such a huge leap for me.

I know, I can tell. But your third failure is about your failure to be able to say out loud. Yeah. I'm an author. Oh god. Yeah. Shriek the Books is back for a brand new season. This is the podcast where we put our favorite fictional TV characters into therapy. Join me, Ben Bailey Smith and our brand new psychotherapist, Nimone Metaxas. Hi, Ben. Yes, this season we're going to be putting the likes of Tommy

from Peaky Blinders, Cersei from Game of Thrones on the couch to learn why their behavior creates so much drama. So make sure you press the follow button to get new episodes as soon as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Shrink the Box is a Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Are you ever minding your own business when you start to wonder, how do killer whales work?

Who are Hollywood's paparazzi? Did British sailors get it on in the 1800s with each other? I'm Jonathan Van Ness and every week on Getting Curious, I sit down for a gorgeous conversation with a brilliant expert to learn all about something that makes me curious. Honey, we explore everything around here with scientists, historians, activists, entertainers, and other brilliant guest experts. You can join me every Wednesday for an all-new topic with an all-new expert on Getting Curious.

Listen to Getting Curious wherever you get your podcasts. So you couldn't say that, Nat, if, are you an author? Well, I don't know. I just, I feel, oh God, sorry. I'm, yeah, I've gone really fidgety. Yes, you're visibly uncomfortable. I feel like there was just so many brilliant books out there. What's silly is when I actually read one of my books, I'm like, oh, it's okay. It's good actually. I often get that, I don't know about you, but when I read the audiobook and I have to record the audiobook, that's really good for me and for my confidence because I'm like, actually, that was a great little twist or that was a lovely little moment or I could really picture that. And it takes for me to, when I'm reading it out loud,

think, oh, actually, this works and you should be proud of it. But then something happens between that. And then, you know, little voices start to creep in about that it's, you know, I'm not good enough or I'm not, you know, who do I think I am, straying out of my lane. But I do know, you know, I really, really love writing when it's going well. Like when people tell me they've read the book, I start getting, I get a bit embarrassed and I'm like, oh my God, really? No. And it's not false. I'm not being all fake and humble. I can tell. I think partly maybe it's because you've been doing it less long and in your head because you do have such a strong work ethic. You're like, no, I need to build up the hours. I need to have done it for at least 20 years before I can get to the point of

thinking maybe I'm okay at that. But I think also in this country, we are terrible at allowing women to be more than one thing. And actually what you're doing is quite a radical feminist act. Yeah, good. So yes. And that's what you were doing in the era when you were going out with your female mates and you were showing that that could be a way to be a woman too. Yeah. That's the through line.

But do you think that maybe what you're picking up on is what you worry other people might be thinking? Yeah, I think so. Yeah, really. And it's not, it's frustrating because actually when it comes to, like you say, when it comes to my broadcasting, I don't feel like that anymore. I feel really confident and in life in general, I don't really care what people think of me as much. But I think with the writing, I do, you know, I've,

look, it's really, it's really difficult to talk about because I also don't want to put people off reading my books, because I don't want to be too like, oh, no, they're terrible, because I know they're not terrible. I know they're not terrible. Let me just say that right now. Thank you. We'll preface this entire like discussion with Sarah is a brilliant writer, genuinely. And I probably had some of my own prejudice coming to it thinking, oh, this is another thing she's going to be great at. Look at her lustrous hair and her brilliant broadcasting and now this. But genuinely, like your writing is so engaging and so warm and funny and perceptive. Yeah.

And it is just... Thank you. You can't stop reading it. Like it's such a talent. Thank you. What do your parents think of what you do? My mom's really proud. They're both really proud.

Mommy's much more involved. Mom's a great proofreader. And she will spot any little mistakes and tell me and that's obviously a brilliant thing and she's very proud, she's super proud. Dad is proud but he's like the other day he was like oh has that book come out then? And I was like, yeah, it came out in March, I'll send you another book that you won't read. Like I said to him, joking and he laughed. Because he didn't read the memoir until the cows come home, which was basically about him. It started off as a love letter basically to my child or to farming, to my dad. And he didn't read it, but it actually

farming to my dad and he didn't read it. But it actually changed and it became... I've said, you know, there's only me, I could write my memoir and there'd be a twist in it. I'd be surprised by the twist in my own story. What an idiot. And that was like, durr, it was your mother, it was your mom who worked hard, it was your mum who did everything for you, it was your mum who pushed you to go to that, you know, that modelling casting that day in Manchester that got me the girly show. It was all my mum. Why? You know, and so, I think dad found it hard when I was on the tele calling people wankers, you know, he was a bit like, you don't want to do that modelling stuff again where you don't talk, basically, it was what he meant. But he's, he's proud. So when you see yourself, Sarah Cox, aged 80, where do you see yourself and what are you doing?

I would, I would maybe be on a small holding, having got there eventually, surrounded by dogs and horses and ponies and my lovely husband, hopefully. And yes, to be writing, I think. I'd still love to be broadcasting. I mean, come on, Tony Blackburn's 85. Annie Nightingale. Annie Nightingale. I know, RIP, former guest. Really? Yeah, she was amazing. She was great wasn't she?

I can totally imagine you there, age 80, still broadcasting, writing, and maybe, maybe finally acknowledging that you are an author. Yeah, do you think so? I do because by then it's 30 years on, and it's taken you 20 years to admit that you're a broadcaster and a very good one. I mean, you haven't admitted even that you're very good. I'm saying that for you. So I think you will be there by then. And I think other people will have had the benefit and the joy of reading more of your books. Thank you. I mean, it's been really freeing. It's been really helpful somebody who can write and who's as brilliant as you to be able to, to tell me to just this, you know, that it's everybody's got their own voice and just to let it be.

That's what I need to, what I need to do really. Well, that's incredibly kind of you, but I want to thank you for being my companion, my peer and someone who I have grown up alongside who got me through tricky times on the radio without us ever having met and now is sitting here opposite me and it just feels such a beautiful full circle moment for me too. So thank you for everything that you are and everything that you do. Thank you. It's been lovely. Thanks so much. I've loved it. And now you're going to come on Failing with Friends and you're going to

answer some listener failures and questions. Thank you so much, I've loved it. And now you're going to come on Failing with Friends and you're going to answer some listener failures and questions. Excited. Thank you so much, Sarah. Thank you. Remember to follow us to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. And please do share a link with everyone you know.

This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.