How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - Simon Cowell - ‘I often think: what gives me the right to judge people?’

Episode Date: May 7, 2025

Simon Cowell has built an entertainment empire on his ability to say exactly what he thinks and an uncanny ability to judge the public mood. From launching Pop Idol in 2001, The X Factor in 2004 and the cultural behemoth Britain’s Got Talent in 2007, he has been at the helm of primetime around the world for over a quarter of a century. His TV shows and Syco record label have shaped the careers of everyone from One Direction to Little Mix, Susan Boyle and Leona Lewis. But his success hasn’t come without its struggles. For the first time, Cowell opens up about his biggest failures and regrets - an extraordinary thing to hear from one of the most successful men on the planet. We chat about fame, bankruptcy, loss, being ‘obnoxious’ and whether he has any regrets. Plus: what breaking his back and a near-death experience taught him and why he thinks we needs another referendum on Brexit. Britain’s Got Talent is currently airing on ITV, and America’s Got Talent celebrates its 20th year this summer on NBC. ‘The biggest risk is being safe’ - Elizabeth and Simon answer YOUR questions in our subscriber series, Failing with Friends. Join our community of subscribers here: https://howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content Have something to share of your own? I'd love to hear from you! Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com 🌎 Get an exclusive 15% discount on your first Saily data plans! Use code [howtofail] at checkout. Download Saily app or go to to https://saily.com/howtofail ⛵ Production & Post Production Coordinator: Eric Ryan Mix Engineer: Josh Gibbs Producer: Hannah Talbot Executive Producer: Carly Maile How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello there. I just wanted to let you know before we start this episode with Simon Cowell that during the course of our conversation, we did talk about the tragic passing of Liam Payne. However, collectively, we made the decision not to put that exchange in this episode out of respect for his family. We offer our sincerest condolences to all of Liam's loved ones. Thank you so much for listening. It's where you will hear really riveting pieces of information like Olivia Atwood's dream date location or Miranda Hart's advice on performing bodily functions in front of your partner.

Just follow the link in the podcast notes and we will see you there. Welcome to How To Fail. Now, this podcast was born out of my own failures in life. And I firmly believe that we measure success in the lessons we've learned along the way, rather than the things that always go to plan. So every week, I ask a new guest about three times they failed and what, if anything, they've learnt along the way. It was like publicly being humiliated. But I remember someone shouting at me, you wanker. And I went, actually, you're right, I am a wanker.

Would you judge us having sex? I'm like, are you winding me up? They went, no, we'll pay you. How much? Are you winding me up? They went, no, we'll pay you as much. If you don't know about flyer deals on Instacart, this message is for you. Flyer deals are like strolling through your favorite store looking for deals, but you're scrolling your phone and maybe you're in bed.

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My guest today remembers proffering his first critical judgment at the age of four, when he told his mother that her white pillbox hat made her look like a poodle. Since then, Simon Cowell has built a multi-million pound entertainment empire on his ability to say exactly what he thinks and an uncanny capacity to judge the public mood. It was Cowell who devised a plethora of wildly successful TV talent show formats that would transform the face of popular culture. From launching Pop Idol in 2001, The X Factor in 2004, and the cultural behemoth Britain's Got Talent in 2007,

he's been at the helm of prime time around the world for over a quarter of a century. helm of primetime around the world for over a quarter of a century. As a judge, Cowell became infamous for his bluntness, his trademark phrase, I don't mean to be rude, but later provided the title for his autobiography. His TV shows and psycho record label have shaped the careers of everyone from One Direction to Little Mix, Susan Boyle, and Leona Lewis. It's quite the journey for a boy who growing up in Elstree, Hertfordshire, hated school so much, he started smoking and drinking at the age of eight before leaving full-time education as soon as he could at 16.

It was his mother, Julie, who filled out a form for him to work in the mailroom at EMI Records. Cowell got the job and from there worked his way up. I'm always striving for something else, he said in his 2006 Desert Island Discs interview, I don't relax. I've tried to, and I can't. I'm very, very competitive. I like winning.

Simon Cowell, welcome to How to Fail. That was a good intro, by the way. Thank you. I can actually remember everything as you said it, from the poodle to buying number six cigarettes at the age of eight, going down when my mom and dad had a party and my brother Nicholas and me, we would go down in the morning and take all the butts out of the ashtrays. If it was like half a cigarette, it was like bingo. It's an hating school. Well, I know I ended, it's a bit of a con on my part with the 2006 quote about how competitive you are and how you like winning and how you find it hard to relax. You were 46 then when you charmed the pants of Sue Lawley. You're 65

now. Has that changed? You know, on that day, I had the worst migraine ever. And it was something I really wanted to do, Desert Island Discs. And I remember thinking, God, I've got the worst migraine. I shouldn't be doing this. So what should have been a great experience? Actually, it was terrible. So I want to do it again. And I would change the songs.

Yeah. OK. Yeah. Because your luxury was a mirror. Yeah. Do you remember that? Yeah, I do. You said, I quote, I'd miss me.

That might have changed now. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, I'm still, I think I'm still pretty much the same. I'm still competitive now. But as you know, we were saying earlier on, I kind of like learnt, I think, how to work better. Often when people are competitive, it's because they're trying to prove something to someone. Yeah. Does that resonate with you? It does. Often when people are competitive, it's because they're trying to prove something to someone.

Does that resonate with you? It does, particularly, I think because my job, it's so public and I often think what gives me the right to judge people if I'm not signing artists, for instance, at the moment. So I did something recently where I thought, okay, I'm gonna do something to create a band very publicly, which is gonna come out in a few months time, and to see whether I can do it again or not.

Partly, I think to prove to myself, I just had this kind of like nagging thing in the back of my mind, what was the happiest time of my life? And it's always been working with bands. I've loved that energy when you find that first person, second person to their first record or their first tour. It is, it's so hard to articulate that excitement.

And I thought, well, maybe there isn't kind of a band like One Direction or Little Mix for so many years. Why not do it again? And honestly, it was one of the scariest things I've ever done, but I had to do it. Have you found the band? I think I have. I don't want to give it away. Okay.

I actually said to her, I'm not going to talk about it. And this is the first thing I'm talking about. Was there a fear at one point that you had lost your edge? Because if I look at Simon Cowell now that I see on my TV screen, as opposed to Simon Cowell then on my TV screen, it does seem as though you've softened and mellowed and you've become a father. And we went through the pandemic and you had a sort of life altering accident in 2020. All of those things, do you think they have softened you and did that

worry you? Oh God, yeah. There was a moment, I mean, going back to that accident because, you know, it was bad. I mean, I had this, it wasn't really a bike, a bicycle. It was basically an electric motorbike. So powerful. You just couldn't keep the front wheel down. So I shipped it in from England, couldn't wait to ride it. And I was in the driveway and my son was there and I pulled the throttle and this. It did the biggest wheelie and it threw me like seven, eight feet in the air and I landed like that on my back. And the second I landed, I went, shit, I know I broke my

back because I could feel it. And the first thing I did was kind of move my hands. Yes. Can I move my feet? Yeah. Okay. That's not too bad. And then, you know, I was in the ambulance and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then I woke up from surgery and I thought, actually, it's not too bad. And the guy goes, you've got pain blockers in you in three or four days time, it's going to wear off. And in three or four days time, yeah, it wore off. And at that moment, I thought, wow, this is really, really really bad and I could have died and it was a kind of a wake-up moment which is I am crazy but you know it kind of happened for a reason because I thought

I was fit and then when I had to do all the kind of like the physio afterwards just walking all the kind of like the physio afterwards, just walking. Um, cause they make you walk very quickly. Um, but for three months, I pretty much couldn't move. And then I started to walk a lot. And then I realized, my God, I really, really, I'm in a bad place or was in a bad place. I was just getting up, walking to my telephone. I would stay on the phone for 10 hours and that was basically my life, seven days a week. So as bad as it was, I do believe it happened for a reason because I'm now fitter. I'm still a bit crazy on my bikes, but it really does make you realize life is really precious and it just like that could have gone. Did you have a near-death experience where you came face to face with what might be on the other

side? Was it that kind of experience? Well, you know, in America, I said where it happened, you know, it took quite a long time from getting in the ambulance, getting to the hospital. Luckler had a great surgeon and had so much pain medication at that point. I was kind of out of it. And then he said, you know, we had to do the x-rays and he showed me the x-ray and I'm like, God, he said, look, I'm not going to lie, Simon. Number one, I don't know if I can fix this. And which means you probably won't walk.

And secondly, the operation is going to take maybe 11 hours. So. They did the obvious, it could go wrong. And at that moment I'm like, Oh gosh. And all I kept thinking about was, you know, my family and everything. And in that moment, you kind of realize, you know, the most important thing is your health and don't do stupid, stupid things. And then thankfully, you know, it all worked out fine. My back's fine now. I'm fitter than I was five years ago. All I was worried about was how do I explain it to my son who was really

tiny at the time? He didn't really understand. Because you know, inside me, I've got this metal rod and I've got these screws and I'm just lying there. And I said, Eric, have you watched that movie Iron Man? He went, yeah. I said, well, that's sort of why I am now. I'm made of iron.

And he kind of got it from that point. And once I knew he understood, I was fine with it at that point. How old was Eric then? He would have been, let me think, so 2005, so he would have been six. Okay. Yeah, five, six, yeah. You are renowned for your put downs

and the occasional savagery of your responses, particularly in the early seasons of Pop Idol and X Factor. Do you regret any of them? Not really. I was approached a lot when I was an A&R person. I was just running a record label and it was at the time where people who weren't well known, they were doing like flower on the wall documentaries. And I kept getting all these offers to be on TV and I'm like, this is the last thing I want to do. However, I turned down being a judge on pop stars. I knew I'd made a mistake because by turning down being on the show, I didn't get to sign

the winning act. Yes. Yeah. And they were terrible, but I knew they were going to sell a lot of records. And I just thought we just got to get on this. So we kind of just, I just decided if we're going to do it, the only person I can really trust is myself. And if I'm going to do this, I'm not going to lie I'm not gonna lie, because I know how difficult it is to break an artist. And because of my own personal experiences when I was starting off, and it was tough, really, really difficult when I first started, what made me better were the people who were honest with me. And they were, I wouldn't say brutal they were brutal i mean it was kind of like would you work with this artist no do you think this records are here no will you produce this artist never and you have to come to just work it out they won't be rude to be rude they were just being honest and i had to.

I had to kind of understand in a relatively short period of time, I've got to get the right artist with the right song, with the right idea and learn from it. So therefore, when I was in a position to kind of do the same thing, I thought, well, if I tell someone who can't sing, they can sing. I'm just lying and I just couldn't do it. I do think looking back, they did find a lot of bad singers because they were terrible some of them. All I was thinking about was if we don't find someone who can sell records in the first year, I'm toast. This is going to be really embarrassing. And even

my bosses at the time, they were saying, what are you thinking, Simon? I'm like, well, I think if this works, I think we can sell a lot of records. Think about it. They're like, you're doing really well, Simon. You know, you're signing a lot of artists anyway. You can, this is, you know, very public. Don't do it. And I'm like, well, I'm going to give it one, get one go. So all I kept thinking of that first year was where's the start? And then there was that one audition,

Gareth Gates, he just came in. Cause I actually have a bit of a stutter as well. People don't know that. Yeah. There are times where I just can't get the words out for whatever reason, sometimes when I'm stressed. And I kind of related to that, this guy and he was trying to talk and he just looked so good. And I thought, wow, he looks like a star, this boy, and he couldn't talk. And it took about 10 minutes for him to eventually sing. And then when he sang, he was like a completely different person. him to eventually sing. And then when he sang, he was like a completely different person. And then there was a press launch for the show. And I saw that clip. And in that moment, I went, this is going to work. Before we get on to your failures, do you have a favourite put down from the early era Simon Cowell?

I can't remember. I mean, genuinely, I can't even watch this stuff back now. I mean, I don't watch, the only time I watch my shows is before they go out. So I get like a rough cut on the show. So I kind of look at it as, is this working? Is it the right acts? Whatever, whatever, whatever. Once it's gone out, I never look at it again. Like I don't have any gold discs in my houses or what a house, sorry. What do people ask you to say to them when they meet you in the street? Or do they just ask for selfies?

People used to ask me to be rude to them. I mean, literally, they would come up and say, you know, particularly in America, will you be rude to me? And I'm like, no. And then one time, it's a true story. Um, I was in a restaurant and this guy comes up to me and he said, um, uh, you know, I love your show. Thank you very much. Uh, would you, would you take a picture? Sure. This is my wife.

Nice to meet you. Um, would you judge us having sex? I'm like, are you winding me up? They went, no, we'll pay you as much and it was actually was a lot of money. I thought, do I? No, I just can't do it. It was 150 grand. It was 150 grand. Yeah. We found your moral scruple. That's what you said though too. Yeah. Yeah.

It's just kind of a sexual kink. Well, it was just so bizarre. That's something I really have enjoyed though, weirdly, is that I am very shy. Like I can't go to a pre-party. It's my worst thing in the world, making small talk with people I don't know. If we have a common subject, I'm pretty good. But years ago, if I had to go to a party, particularly if to stand up with a drink, with horrible food and just talk to people you don't know, it's torture. So once I was known by people, it was kind of good because it broke the ice with people you meet. So instantly they know you, you're talking about something I like, you know, which is the shows or the artists or whatever. So it kind of helped me with my shyness. That's fascinating. Yeah. But still now, Lauren is brilliant in these positions.

This is your fiance. Yeah. I'm hopeless. So Joan Collins had a birthday party and I'm like, do I get out of it? And I said to Lina, okay, I'll go, but we have to time it. So, cause there'll be a horrible, like I said, stand up pre-drinks. I can't do that. So at the same time, you know, Joan is a diva and if you're late, she'll kill me. So I'm trying to balance everything. So I just felt, okay, fine. I think we've timed it well. We didn't.

For 45 minutes, I had to talk to people and I was dying inside. I was so, I was so stressed by the time I got to the table. I left after about 30 minutes because I just can't deal with it. Drainage. Draining. Yeah. As someone who loves a trip away, being connected to home and the rest of the world when I'm

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Because that is one of them, by the way. Okay. Yeah. I'm socially inept. I want to come back to that actually, because I think it's so interesting hearing about someone so famous and how that has helped counteract that self-stated ineptitude. But before we do that, your first failure is bankruptcy. So this was when in your late 20s, the company that owned your record label went bankrupt. Is that right? Yeah. So I had started a label with about four or five thousand pounds and someone had backed

me financially. And then the guy who backed me was part, then his company was bought by another company or something. I can't remember. And that company went bust. Now when it was public, I think we were buying shares or I borrowed money. I was in debt. So when the big company went bust, we all went bust. And then

I was, I mean, literally bankrupt, I owed the bank about, I think 250,000 pounds, my house, I think when I sold it, I still owed about 70 grand on the mortgage. I had to just get rid of everything, house, cars, everything. And luckily my parents were living in London and I had to get from my old house to their apartment and I had just about five pounds and I kind of worked out will the five pounds get me in a cab to my mum and dad's and that was it. I mean, that was the moment I thought Christ almighty, I really am broke. But they were brilliant.

They were kind of like, it happens, you know, you've learned a lesson. I found then a bank manager who lent me some money to pay back the other bank over time. So I just, in a weird way, kind of got lucky with it. When I've heard you speak about this before, you've been asked whether you felt humiliated and you said no, that actually, in a way, it was good for the balloon to be punctured. Yeah. Tell me a bit more about that. Well, it was the 80s. So it was kind of everything was about Porsches,

flashy, you know, it was very obnoxious. And I was very obnoxious, I think. I'd had a big hit record. Robson and Jerome. No, this was Sunita actually was my first artist and the record sold about a million copies. So I was making for someone in their early 20s a lot of money, but it was really an illusion because it wasn't my company. I didn't really make much of the profits. I had lots of credit cards and I think I just believed because it was really my first attempt at breaking an artist that was going to last forever and it didn't.

Then yeah, when it happened, I didn't miss the house. I definitely didn't miss the Porsche. I hated that Porsche looking bad. My mom and dad were amazing. They didn't think that I'd failed because I'd succeeded but failed at the same time. I had success, but I didn't have any money. No one kind of like stopped being my friend. I bought a TR6 for about six and a half grand, which I loved. It's like a car.

Yeah, just loved it. I remember seeing it in the showroom, bought it. It always went wrong, but I just loved it because I could afford it. And I loved that car more than the Porsche because it was kind of, everything became real at that point. Yes. And I really learned a lesson about don't borrow money. Just don't, you know, just live with what you have and just be happy with that. How obnoxious were you?

Well, I do remember one time I was driving in my Porsche, I had long hair, the top was down, and I passed this pub and I remember someone shouting at me, you wanker. And I went, actually, you're right, I am a wanker. And I put the top up. So I probably was, yeah. And your parents, Eric and Julie, were clearly a formative and profoundly important influence on you. Can you tell me a bit about them and who they were? Well, they were just amazing people. I mean, honestly, genuinely just kind people as well. I remember my dad, I suppose

he would be middle-class. When he died, he didn't have any money. However, we did grow up in nice houses. We were always moving. I remember that. He was very generous. I remember that he was very generous. He worked for a company EMI. So he retired at 65. And once he retired, he never had another phone call. And I remember seeing that and that was really hard to see him because he was still really smart. But because he was part of a big company, it was over. but because he was part of a big company, it was over. And that was kind of depressing. My mom was super glam. She reminded me of Elizabeth Taylor. Who you met when you were a child. Yeah, yeah. Because our next door neighbors, I think ran one of the big studios. So they were always having these flashy parties and we'd always be looking over the fence. I think that was probably looking back, looking at that party. It was weird because I didn't

want to be the actor or the actress. I wanted to be the person who had the party, even at that really young age. So your mother was like Elizabeth Taylor, sorry. Yeah, she was very glam. But again, she was very down to earth. I mean, the last thing they were were snobs. They just weren't. They were, again, very grounded. My mom didn't come for money. My dad didn't come for money.

They didn't inherit anything. Everything. My dad built up. He built up himself. My mom was incredibly hardworking. She was a dancer. But she just ran the house. I mean, I was a total brat when I was a kid. I mean, really bad. Thank God, Eric isn't like that.

And I was always in trouble. I mean, really, really in a lot of trouble. And they just of trouble. And they just taught me, I don't know, the right values, I think about respect, kindness, and importantly, I think particularly from my mom is, you know, have fun in life. Mm-hmm. You know, she always had fun, a lot of fun. You must miss them. Oh, God, yeah. I mean, when I lost, it was hard when I lost my dad. I mean, it was really, really hard because I sort of made myself believe that no one was ever going to die genuinely because I never had that moment because I didn't have my grandparents.

So when my, I had that call and my dad had passed away, I used, it was never, I couldn't get my head around it. And even then I had to take a month off work. I just couldn't talk to anyone. It was really hard. I remember, you know, getting off this plane and seeing my mom and then realizing at that point, I'm sort of now the parent. I've got to look after my mom now. And that's what I promised her, you know, saying to her, look, I'm always going to be here for you because my dad's not here anymore. And then when she passed away, for me, it was like my world had ended at that point. I was still doing TV shows. I had made some money. at that point it was like, God, none of it, I mean,

what's it for? Genuinely, I was broken, absolutely broken and I still had to be on camera and that was just torture. It took me a long, long time and fortunately, thank God, even though the circumstances weren't perfect, Eric was sort of starting to arrive. So my mom had met Eric, even though she had dementia at that point, she, you know, she always wanted me to be a dad and she adored him, just adored him. Lauren and Eric, at that point they kind of saved me really because I didn't realize that

you could ever have that love for another human being. You have your parents. It just is that, but it's even bigger. I mean, it's just indescribable. From the moment I saw his scan I was obsessed you know and I guess looking back that's how they that's how I got away with so much because they love me in the same way as I love Eric and I kind of get that now, which is, you know, it's everything. And it kind of, yeah, reset me and I thought, okay, now I have a purpose. Now everything starts to make sense. And yes, it's great to have success in this and that. However, everything, I think, if I do believe

in destiny and sliding doors and everything, everything was sort of meant to happen, thank God. So beautifully put. And maybe if you did desert island discs again, now you take a photo of Eric as your luxury. Yeah, yeah. Do you see your parents in Eric? Yeah, I do a lot. I do.

He has absolutely my mom and dad in him. He has my mum sense of humour, because he's very funny. He really makes me laugh. And he has this incredible kindness. That's what I was trying to teach Eric from a very early age, which is, please thank you. But my mum said manners make the man I I told him that. The first time he looked at me, he's like, what? And then he got it quite quickly. Understanding people work with us, not for us, all that kind of stuff. Everything they taught me, I can now teach him, which is fantastic. We started off talking about bankruptcy and it's quite some turnaround. Someone who had

to pay back 250 grand and get a loan from the bank to pay off his bankruptcy, your reputed worth is now around 500 million pounds. Oh God, it's not that. I'm not even close to that. I'm being serious. I'm not. I'm not going to lie, I made a bit of money, yes, but not that much, no. Do you think you're rich? Well, probably yes. I've definitely got enough. I don't need any more. I don't yearn for what I thought I wanted a few years ago,

because when I was a kid, I had no idea of anything like yachts and the Caribbean or private planes. I swear to God, I had no idea. So when the first time in my, I think, I guess, early forties, it must have been, I sort of came across this world and saw it. I'm like, what? That is your own boat? It was like a cruise ship. So there was a point,'m not gonna lie where I thought

maybe I haven't done as well as I thought maybe that's what I want. And I did start to kind of mix with some of those people for a couple of years. I'm going to be honest with you, I hated it. I didn't like the people. I thought they were obnoxious. I thought they were snobby. I think a lot of those people thought they were better than other people because they had money, which is ridiculous when you think about it. So it was kind of, again, a kind of good thing that it happened because I remember saying to Lauren,

do we actually know anyone who's rich? I mean, super rich and happy. She went, no. I went, nor me. So we're fine. We're doing all right, but we don't need more. Do you remember a point when you felt I no longer need to worry about money? I always worry about money because of, I think you have to in a way.

You think about COVID as an example, no one could have predicted COVID. I remember reading it for the first time on a website and I don't read a lot of stuff on social media but I'd heard about it so I was curious. And the second day the story got bigger to a point where I actually phoned my partner and I said, I don't like the look of this. I have a horrible feeling it's going to be like that movie Contagion. And I think we need to get all of our shows into production around the world quicker this year.

And we did. And when it happened, it was obviously worse than I could have imagined. But I mean, when you think about that, the wars and everything else, the instability, what is safe? I mean, it was gold cash stock safe any longer. I guess your house living in a nice house. Yeah. Someone did that. She said to me once, thank God, live in your money.

And it was really good advice. I enjoy it and be happy with it, but understand that the world is precarious. So the answer is no. You still worry about money. I do. That's kind of an amazing thing still worry about money. I do. Yeah. That's kind of an amazing thing to hear. Yeah, I do.

Your second failure is the struggle and initial failure that you had getting Britain's Got Talent commissioned. Yeah. Which is a story I did not know about. So how did you come up with the idea? How did you come up with the idea? I was living in an apartment watching a rival show, watching a singer, literally murder this song. I think, wow, I'm watching anymore of these shows.

And I actually thought, I actually rather watch dog act. I don't know why it came into my mind. I just love a dog. I love dogs. I just thought dogs, variety, that would be fun. Why don't we just make like a proper, proper talent show? I just had in that moment, thank God, because of that girl singing that song, it just made me think, oh, you know what?

Singing is still important, but why not just open it up because YouTube had just started to kind of really happen. And there were so many funny things on YouTube. I thought, actually, this could be brilliant. So I had it in my head what it would look like. But no one else did. Literally no one else got it. So I had to force ITV. Now, to be fair, ITV now are brilliant partners. And they

really are much to say that, but they really have been amazing. Then not so much because I said, look, please, please, I really want to make this show. And eventually we made a pilot and it was dreadful to be fair. It was so bad. There was only about seven minutes of it, which was actually watchable. It was terrible. But the seven minutes we shot was really funny. And I got a call from NBC. In America, and they said, what's the show?

By the way, then I TV because the pilot was so bad, it was dead. So there was no Britain's Got Talent. So the show is dead. So then I get a call, NBC, what's the show like? Amazing. Can we come over? I said, yeah, I'll show you a highlight reel. I didn't tell them the truth.

So I just showed them the seven minutes. They went, oh my God, it's amazing. Can we buy it? Literally in my house. No one ever says that. Yeah. So we sold it. So the show is a hit. Amazing. I didn't think it was going to do that well, but it did. And then I was able to persuade ITV to make Britain's Got Talent. So we got everything

agreed and then three or four days before we were due to shoot, I get a phone call, a guy called Simon and he said, I need to see you. And I thought that's bad news. And he came over and he said, we're pulling the show. I said, why? He said, it's not going to be a hit. I said, how do you know? He said, I'm just telling you, I'm saving your career. I'm saving Ed's and Dex's career. We're not making the show. I said, well, we are. We, because I've got 150 people in I think it was Birmingham, ready to shoot in three days time. Well, we're putting the plug. I said, I'll tell you what, give me a day. And I was thinking, Christ, let us

pay for this ourselves. I can't stop. I can't tell anyone. So we went up and everyone's kind of super excited. I'm thinking this is going to last the day. And I actually saw someone from the network in the back of the theater. I thought they're not kidding around here. Luckily, the first audition was so funny. And the audience got it. I texted the guy and I said, I really think this is going to be a hit. Cut a long story short, they said yes, begrudgingly, but they wanted the show off the air as quickly as possible, which is why we had the live shows stripped over a week. And it's changed now, it's now weekly. But it was just one of those things where I was just shocked because I even thought from the outset, this is just obvious in the climate that we were in. Music shows were just blowing up all over the world.

Variety shows was something I used to watch as a kid and loved. So logically, it's going to work again. And there's so many great people out there. I mean, YouTube was just showing that. So I was just surprised that no one got it. However, they didn't. Now they've been brilliant. The new surprised that no one got it. However, they didn't. Now they've been brilliant. The new people at ITV get it. NBC have been amazing. In fact, it's our 20th anniversary

this year. Congratulations. It's amazing. But I think it's kind of, weirdly again, you kind of have to go through that bit of a struggle because if everything was easy, it would be boring. I mean, genuinely. And so did you pay for that crew and production for those couple of days when ITV wasn't on board? No. Okay. If they had pulled the plug, I would have had to have said, okay, we're stopping production.

I would have had to say to my partner, we don't have a network, maybe we're going to sell it to somewhere else or whatever, whatever, whatever. I just didn't think in that moment. I just thought we have to keep going. It's that child troublemaker part of you. And there's also, I do find it extraordinary, one of the things that you often say, and you're right, in the audition process is that the public knows. Always. And I wonder how you know that because you also have this instinct for what the public wants.

Where does that come from? I have commercial tastes. Let's put it this way. I mean, I like everything that's popular from baked beans to corn flakes to ITV, the BBC. I mean, I've just that's popular from baked beans to cornflakes to ITV, the BBC. I mean, I've just liked popular things. I'm not sort of into niche things. I like popular records, which is why I made pop music, which is just an abbreviation of popular. So I've never had to guess. I've only done something based on what I like. When I'm, say, on a live show, and I'm in my dressing room, and I've got a TV monitor, and I can see the theatre or the studio, I still pinch myself because it's like, I can get on the phone and say to the director, can you make it green?

And it will go green in that second. And it's like brilliant. It's still for me that. I still really get a kick out of that. Talk to me about fame. You mentioned earlier that being recognized makes it easier to navigate horrible thought talk at parties. But it's been such an interesting period of time for fame. In the two decades since you've become really famous, fame itself has gone through lots of transmutations and there is a dark side to it. And I just wonder how you feel about fame and also the fame that you give others. Well, and I had to explain this to Eric because, you know, as you know, when we used to walk

together and I was, I used to laugh because people would recognize me and because, you know, as a kid and he didn't get what was going on. And one day I had, he said, dad, why does everyone laugh when they pass you? Well, my job is I'm well known. Let's put it that way. I'm on a TV show. That means people know me. So that's it.

So that's how I look at it. I don't use the word fame. It's more well known. Lots of people know who I am and that's kind of good actually. Was there ever a point where you were aware that the caricature of Cowell was overwhelming the actual Simon Cowell? I used to get frustrated where I had to keep reminding people of why we did this in the first place, which is what is more important, the show or the end result.

For me, it's the end result. You want someone at the end of your show to the end result you want someone. Add the end of your show to do well cuz otherwise it will be pointless i'm seriously pointless so. There was certain producers along the way who i think thought probably the show was more important than i cared about and so there would be clashes. I'm not in a really good place. I think we found that place, which is we have some crazy acts come on, but they know they're crazy, but in a good way. So we're all in on it together. At the same time, producers will book someone who they think is brilliant and I don't. And so we just disagree. Okay. Talk to me about, say, a One Direction. Is it obvious from the moment one of those then boys walks in that they have it?

No. I think looking back, I can remember every one of the boys first auditions. And I mean, Harry is an example. He was just very charming. And he just charmed everyone just by talking about pies or something. And he had a good voice and he looked great. And he was just really a nice person. And that applies really to all of the boys, you know, I mean, Niall is an example of the person who was with me wanted to say no to him. I say, are you kidding? I say, yes, to change your life. We had a big argument off camera about it. However, for whatever reason, maybe it was in his nerves and experience. I at that point, perhaps other people were doing better. And then at that moment when they were

on stage and I saw the boys, we were like, well, hang on a moment, we can't lose them. What do we do? And then it was like, okay, what if we put them in a group? So it sort of happened in about 20 minutes, honestly. And then when I saw the five boys together, yes, I did think, wow, they look amazing. I mean, there's a kind of great energy about them. And of course, I knew a lot about them because they'd audition and Zayn had gone missing at one point. So I knew him and his story. And I was in Spain when they came to audition for me the first time.

And I remember seeing them walk around and as they walked towards me I was literally praying, please God, please God let them sing, please God let them sing, I want them to be good and they sang and I had my poker face on because I didn't want to give it away and as they walked around the corner I jumped out of my chair and I went they are fantastic, I just love them, I just, something about these boys, I loved them. And I think they're going to do great. And the deal was, I just said to them, do what you want. I'll advise a few songs, but wear what you want,

say what you want, just have fun. And that was it, honestly. And once, you know, we'd signed the deal, it was kind of, you hand the baton over to them at that point. It's like, right, run with it. You've got, the doors are open. Everyone wants to write for you.

Everyone wants to produce for you. The world kind of likes you already because of the show. So just take it, run with it, and that's it. And then at the same time in my life, my career, I'm still doing the same thing where I'm encouraging people with talent to run with your talent at the same time knowing that becoming well-known has, as you said, a dark side to it and everybody wants that now. So it was that real.

I'm a Liban. So I'm, I'm tipping the scales all the time. What is the right thing to do? And unfortunately, um, whether it's in show business, whatever job you do, you're going to have pressure. And I guess all I can take from this experience is anyone I work with, you have to prepare them for... it's not just success, it's... someone said this very wise, which is, what are you most afraid of? Are you afraid of not being successful or when you are successful, retaining your

success? And I thought that was a very smart way of putting it because when you find someone who's got talent, you can't hold on to them forever. That is a fact, unfortunately. You have to let them go. I can hear that it weighs heavily on you. Yeah, it's just a very, it's a very hard thing. I mean, even with my son, you know, there's going to be a point in his life where whatever he does in his life, there's going to be pressure that comes with it. What I can say to him is, you know, just stay grounded. You know, there's always going to be a temptation of certain things, you know, and always know

you can come to me. And I guess that's probably the most important thing is anyone I suppose now is saying to them, if you've got any issues, talk to me. Of all the great things that have happened in my life, then there's those moments like you said, my mum and dad, things like that, you know, it's just life is shit when it happens like that, you know? And prompts a lot of soul searching. Yeah. And I know I mentioned to you before we started recording that Lucy Spragan came on How to Fail and obviously went through a horrendously traumatic time.

Yeah. Speaks so highly of you and how you were the first person to call and how much that meant to her. And I know you walked the first person to call and how much that meant to her. And I know you walked her down the aisle recently and you're very good friends. And so much work has been done on mental health of reality TV contestants in the time since these shows started. And I get the impression from you that it's taken very seriously now. You take it very seriously? Paul Well, I think we were all affected by it, looking back, myself included, by the way. I went through my own dark times, genuinely, where

particularly, like I said, after I lost my parents, there was a moment where I just was so depressed and down and nothing made you feel better. Having said that I would do it all over again a hundred percent I have no regrets you know changing my life at that moment becoming well-known even with some of the stuff that goes with it I've just dealt with it and I can't complain because you meet really nice people every day, genuinely. Everyone's really nice to you. In return, I try and be nice back to them. I've never said no ever to a selfie or handshake or an autograph. And I always say to every person who I work with,

autograph. And I always say to every person who I work with, don't ever complain about people asking for photographs or this or that or moan about privacy. Because if you want privacy, be an accountant. If you want to be, you know, well known, that's what comes with it. The public are the people who pay your wages. So in return, you have to be nice to them. It's as simple as that. This episode of How To Fail is brought to you by BetterHelp. I know firsthand that stress and anxiety can show up in all kinds of ways.

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of expertise. Get the tools to manage your anxiety with BetterHelp. Our listeners get 10% This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Now, if you're an entrepreneur like me, or living the creative freelance life, then Squarespace is the all-in-one platform to help you stand out and succeed online. Whether you're just getting started or nurturing a growing brand, Squarespace makes it easy to create a stunning website and engage with your audience. My website was designed on Squarespace and I found it so user-friendly and easy. And trust me, I am not techy at all. Squarespace supports a design-orientated ethos, so the options are chic and there's plenty of templates to choose from. I felt totally supported as an entrepreneur, and it made it even easier for me to help nurture my community too.

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Why have you chosen this as a failure? That was a big one. That, I was obnoxious then. The show was doing great and we were getting lots of calls about launching it in America. So instead of doing it in the way we should have done, which is kind of like, let's just not tell anyone, let's just put the show out and hopefully a few people like it and tell your friends they like it. We did the opposite. I made this really flashy promo. I did, I stupidly in a press interview, because someone said, you know, how will you know if it's a success or a failure? And I said, if it has less than 20 million viewers, it's a failure. And they

picked up on that. And that was it. That was the story that ran. So I think it got somewhere like between 14 and 16 million people and it was dead on arrival basically. Simon said if it gets us in 20 minutes of failure, so it's a failure. So everyone's heads went down. The show did fine. Having said that, if I was doing it all over again, yes, I wouldn't have done it like that. I would have literally not told anyone really about it, not done much promo, put the show out in a good time slot, hopefully have great people on it, and then surprise people, I guess. I think that would have been the cooler way of doing it. Because around this time, I'm guessing social media was becoming so much more of a thing.

And I wonder how much pressure that placed you under as well. Well, I, I mean, look, we all hyped ourselves up, basically. I had over 100 people working at the company at that point. Too many people, by the way. It was like a machine, you know? And I guess we thought we were bigger than everybody else. And in hindsight, we weren't. The voice came along. It was like being punched in the face because it was so good. And I was so unhappy because it was such a brilliant idea and our show just, I don't know, it just, it wasn't great. And I felt it. And it was probably, it was like publicly being humiliated because I kind of set it up to fail really. And that's a shame.

I wish I could have done it all over again. It's almost like it was that moment again where you're in your Porsche and the roof was down and someone in the pub shouted you're a wanker. Yeah. There's just a lot more people saying wanker at that point. It was interesting because Jeremy Clarkson sort of did the same thing with Top Gear when they launched whatever it was called. It's a horrible title by the way.

That was the worst. Oh, the Grand Tour. That one. Yeah. Horrible name. Yeah. Because I guess they couldn't remake Top Gear in the same way. Let people discover it. And I think that's an important word, discovery, which is don't tell people what they're going

to like. Obviously, let people know it's going to launch whatever, but not in the way that I did it because that wasn't great. Do you actually think the public is always right? Yes, I actually do believe that. Even if you disagree with what the public has chosen, and if we're talking global landscape, let's talk about the election of Trump or Brexit, which I know you were not in favor of. Do you still think the public is right because there's a lesson that we need to be taught?

Well, look, I believe in democracy and, you know, I just always wanted to ask you this. Well, I guess, you know, I don't get involved in politics because I don't have the right to tell people what they should or shouldn't vote for. It's just not my business. I'm being honest with you. Unless it's a gold buzzer act. Unless it's something I make, that's different. But you know, look, we live, that's the world. Some people are going to be happy, some people not. That's life.

With Brexit, it's a really good example. I believe none of us knew what we were voting for. I still don't really know now, other than I have a much stronger opinion now than I had a few years ago, because I now know what it's like not to be in the European Union. We should have voted, I believe, to stay in because we're tiny and we have to be just like in life. You have our partners. You have a partner. I have partners, and Britain needs a partner. And I just don't think the public were given the ability to understand really what we were voting for. I think if it was to happen again, I believe that we would vote to stay with Europe.

I really do believe that. Okay. Now- So let's have a referendum. I really mean that. Thanks. And you know what? It's my scoop.

I would do a show, call you the jury, and I would know politicians and I would get really, really smart people on the show who don't want to be in Europe and do want to be in Europe and then understand why it's a good idea or a bad idea. We weren't given that opportunity. Great. Someone commissioned that show immediately. If there's a referendum, I would do it. I really mean it. Yeah. Yeah. All three of your failures, they've been great, but they've all been professional failures.

If you had to pick a personal failure that you think you've learned the most from, what would it be? Oh, God. Well, I'm quite lucky in that way. I'm friends with most of my ex-girlfriends. Has that ever threatened a current partner? Well, it's been a little bit complicated at times. I mean, sometimes I'm aware at a dinner table, there's 10 people and half of them are my ex-girlfriends. However, we are really, actually really, really good friends. Still, I still love them really. Not in that way, but they're like my family.

Yeah. Seriously, I mean, I look upon them like that. So I've been really lucky actually. And my friends have been great actually. I've had great friends and I did something recently. I just didn't have the money to pay people to help me. So I seriously had to say to about 20 people, I'm making something and I really don't have any money, but will you help me? And they all said yes. And that was the most incredible thing.

Sounds like you love love. Yes, I do. Two final questions for you. One is what success means to you? Oh gosh, that's a good question. I don't look at ratings anymore. And I'll tell you why I don't look at ratings. Because I'll use a Scandinavian drum as an example versus Got Talent. The re the way they calculate the ratings for both shows are identical.

It's not scientific. It's sort of almost guessing it's, it's so backwards. I don't believe in it. The only thing I believe in is the amount of actual views we see online. Cause those are real so if a clip gets a hundred million views that's what's in the view whatever that is success because i can really count like when i used to make records i knew if i'm manufactured. Two hundred thousand records and sold them that's a hit you can't fake it. and sold them, that's a hit. You can't fake it. If you make 200,000 and you sell 2,000, it's a flop. So it was a very uncomplicated way of measuring your success. So that's how, fortunately now with

social media, I can sort of gauge everything on that really. It's still going back to the public. The public still dictates your success or your version of success. And what if something is quality that you really believe in the quality of it, but it doesn't necessarily get 100 million views? Is that successful to you or not? No. It's not. That's so interesting. No. I don't believe you can stop something good not being successful. I mean, if someone writes a great song, if you've got an artist and they've recorded a killer, brilliant song, you can't really stop it not becoming a hit.

I really believe that. Final question, if someone's listening to this and they're feeling in the grip of a failure right now, and you could give them one piece of advice for success, what would your advice be? Understand that getting there is more fun than being there, and you are going to hear no more than yes, but every no kind of empowers you weirdly. Amazing. Simon Cowell, before we go on to Failing with Friends, I've got one final request. Okay.

I'd like you to say it's a yes from me. I actually was thinking that. You're very good, by the way. Thank you. You're very good at getting people to talk and swear and get quite emotional, actually. You are. You've got a good energy about you. You have. That means so much to me. Seriously. Thank you, truly.

Okay, so now you have to say a yes. Oh, sorry. I was waffling. I'm going to say, let me think about this for a moment. It's a yes from me. Yay! You didn't like it. You loved it.

I didn't like it. I loved it. You're a legend. Thank you so, so much. I've loved this. Oh, thank you. I really have. Please do follow How To Fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.