How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - Sir Paul Smith - ‘People In Fashion Are Insecure’

Episode Date: September 23, 2026

Sir Paul Smith is one of Britain’s most iconic fashion designers, renowned for his sharp tailoring and his sartorial flair. His clothes have an innate sense of mischief: brightly coloured linings, unexpected stripes and a determination never to take themselves too seriously. His devoted clients include Gary Oldman, Bill Nighy and Matty Healy, who wore a Paul Smith suit for his recent wedding. Behind the stripes and the suits is a man with a simple life philosophy: stay humble, work hard, be kind. On this episode we talk about the cycling accident that set him on a path to fashion and how he’s kept his global business independent for 56 years. Plus, the secret to a long marriage, what tailoring teaches him about people’s insecurities - and why he wore a suit every day during the Covid lockdowns. IN THIS EPISODE: 00:00 Intro 03:40 Tailoring for Everyone 06:48 The Pink Wall Story 08:31 Stripes and Reinvention 10:20 Turning 80 11:33 Cycling Freedom and Family 18:20 Crash That Changed Everything 24:20 Pauline Sets The Standard 25:19 Keeping Love And Work Balanced 26:19 Step Parenting And Playfulness 27:28 The Trap Of Comparison 32:43 Brexit COVID And Staying Independent 36:02 Choosing The Right Collaborations 37:21 Believing Your Own Hype 42:47 Creativity Legacy And Farewell 💬 QUOTES TO REMEMBER: Pauline [my wife] set the standard - it’s been very important for longevity. A successful relationship is about balance. Knowing when to talk, when to listen… and have both feet on the ground. The danger is losing your focus, and worrying too much about ‘them’. 🔗 LINKS + MENTIONS: Sir Paul Smith’s Memoir ‘Threads’ is available to buy now: www.paulsmith.com/uk/threads-by-sir-paul-smith-special-edition-book Join the How To Fail community: www.howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content Elizabeth’s Substack: www.theelizabethday.substack.com 📚 WANT MORE? Edward Enninful - swap.fm/l/NOAt5NDZeBTgX6qZUWpB Bella Freud - swap.fm/l/mQntNELQPRhZ9CjFQO77 💌 LOVE THIS EPISODE? Subscribe on Spotify, Apple or wherever you get your podcasts Leave a 5⭐ review – it helps more people discover these stories 👋 Follow How To Fail & Elizabeth: Instagram: @elizabday TikTok: @howtofailpod Podcast Instagram: @howtofailpod Website: www.elizabethday.org Elizabeth and Sir Paul answer listener questions in our subscriber series, Failing with Friends. Join our community of subscribers here: https://lnk.to/7i0moR Have a failure you’re trying to work through for Elizabeth to discuss? Click here to get in touch: askhowtofail.com Production & Post Production Coordinator: Eric Ryan Engineer: Matias Torres Assistant Producer: Shania Manderson Senior Producer: Hannah Talbot Executive Producer: Alex Lawless How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It's everybody else that's noticed I'm 80. You know, if nobody have told me, I wouldn't have made any difference. They say, oh, Paul's job, yes, head of happiness. That's my job. What a great job. I do clothes as well. Yeah. I was leaving home with my mom and dad, and suddenly I had a lady from London with two children, two dogs and two cats.

So it was quite a move forward. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with me, Elizabeth. day, this is the podcast that believes you can dress for success, but only if you've understood your failures first. Before we get into this conversation, please do remember to like, follow and subscribe so that you never miss a single episode. Home is one of those things I really care about. It's where I write, it's where I decompress, it's where my husband and I debrief after a hectic day. So I am obsessed with making it feel nice. And there's been one thing in our sitting room that has driven me mad for ages, and that's the rug.

It's just too small. And it's kind of floating in the middle of the room. And I've known it's not right for ages, but not quite done anything about it. Then I discovered Anesta, who make designer quality rugs custom cut to the exact dimensions of your space. You simply send Anesta's design team photos and the dimensions of your room, and they'll help you work out exactly what size you need, completely free of charge. They then cut and finish your rug to order and can deliver it in as little as two weeks. Visit Anesta.com and order five samples for only $10 and you'll get $50 towards any rug of your choice. That's E-R-N-E-S-T-A.com.

Some evil thing happened here. Three people die in a quiet suburb in Mississauga, Canada. It's not a coincidence. One after the other, in the same house. Is this bad luck or something more sinister? The worst investigative mess I've ever encountered. Long, simmering what took you so fucking long to get here. From Sony Music Entertainment, this is what happened to the Harrisons.

I'm Amy Dempsey Raven. What Happened to the Harrisons is available now on the binge. Search for it wherever you get your podcasts to start listening today. Subscribers to The Binge can listen to all episodes, all at once, ad free. Sir Paul Smith is one of Britain's most iconic fashion designers, renowned for his sharp tailoring and his sartorial flair. His winks of mischief, brightly coloured suit linings, and affinity for stripes, are part of what give his classic clothes a uniquely modern perspective.

Although probably too modest to claim the label, he's also a revolutionary. In the 1990s he was one of the first designers to print photographs on fabric, and he's also credited with reinventing the humble boxer short. The youngest of three children, Sir Paul's father, was a draper. It was his dad who took his youngest son to work as an errand boy in a Nottingham clothing warehouse, after the young Paul left school at 15 with no formal qualifications. Initially, Sir Paul wanted to be a cyclist, but a serious road accident at the age of 17 put paid to those ambitions. He began taking evening classes in tailoring and was later spotted by the Savile Road tailor Harold Tillman, who offered him a job.

In 1970, he and his wife, Pauline, opened their first shop in his hometown of Nottingham. His first full menswear collection was shown in Paris six years later. By the year 2000, he had a stand. a globally successful business and was awarded a knighthood. His devoted clients include Gary Oldman, Bill Nyee and Matty Healy, who wore a Paul Smith suit to his recent wedding. And as if that weren't enough, Sir Paul has even had a tram named after him. His new memoir, threads My Life in Style, paints a picture of a man who is a lifelong observer and who built a world by paying attention.

As Sir Paul puts it, I always say that you can find inspiration in everything. And if you can't, look again. Sir Paul Smith, welcome to How to Fail. That was a very, very nice introduction. How posh. Well, good one, I said very, what was it, smart or elegant sartorial. And I'm in a purposely washed suit today.

You look wonderful. So more relaxed today. You look, you always look wonderful and I must say I am wearing one of my many. You look great. Yeah. I think I look relaxed, but. No, you look great. And I want to give you a personal thank you because Paul Smith suits have been a mainstay of my wardrobe

ever since I launched this podcast. And it's partly because when I first did a live How to Fail show, your amazing team and they are amazing. That's true. You work with great people and that comes from. the top, reached out and said, we'd like to dress you. And I discovered the joy of great tailoring. Yes, I mean, and that's the background of Portsmouth, really, tailoring, mostly because of what you described at night school. And Pauline, of course, who was my teacher

at home, who studied culture fashion at the Royal College of Art. So I had two good aspects of training, really. I also just want to thank you for designing for women. Because that was something that came along a bit later, wasn't it? You realised that 15% of your client base was female. That's right, yes. And it was Grace Coddington, the well-known lady from British Vogue and American Vogue, a stylist, and who just kept putting people in Paul Smith men's clothes. And then one day she was saying, yeah, we do need occasionally a skirt

or we do need occasionally a coat that sort of fits a bit more correctly. And that was how I started really. But I love that androgynous sort of masculine look. And so Paul Smith is women's is essentially tailoring, really. When you're fitting someone for a suit, do you feel that you get to know them? It's important to get to know them because it's important to know, especially in today. world since COVID when so many people are not wearing tailoring you know they sort of spent time at home in hoodies and things so getting them back into more structured clothes but that's why the

suit I'm wearing for instance has no structure it's washed and it purposely created for all those men and ladies that have over the years think oh well it's too rigid, a suit is too rigid and so we're saying yes but you can make a suit which is more relaxed as well. Do you get to know their insecurities as well? I mean... Yes. Yeah. We do, of course we have ready to wear, that means off the peg and we do make to measure

which is where you can make things fairly accurate for most bodies and then we do full bespoke. which is that's where you get to know people's characters and that's obviously quite expensive these days because it's all handmade, there's three fittings and that's where you start to learn why you, when you think you've using this, is it for business? Do you tend to want to look very elegant and smart or are you a more a relaxed person?

Are you likely to wear it with a crisp white shirt and a tie or a denim shirt? Is it difficult to make it? a suit for someone you don't like? Actually, I'm a very strange person because I like people. So, you know, you don't like their politics or their behavior or their bad manners. But essentially, they're a human being. So try to behave.

I've been concentrating on making suits and tailoring. But of course, Paul Smith is a globally successful business. We've been going for 56 years, still independent, absolutely phenomenal achievement. And I really loved that quote that you gave about paying attention to find inspiration. And one of the things that I know many people will associate with Paul Smith is that bright pink store in Los Angeles. Tell us the story of how that came about. I mean, the joy of independence is the fact that you can think, hmm, maybe I'll build a pink shoebox on Melrose Avenue. and the only person you ask is the guy when you're shaving in in the morning

and you see yourself in the mirror. Melrose Avenue is about 20 miles long. Los Angeles is flat and wide, about 40 miles across. Almost everybody drives. So I thought that if I'm putting a shop in this city, then it's got to be a sore thumb. It's got to be a big statement. So I've always been in love with a...

Mexican architect called Lewis Maragon, who is famous for his color. So Pauline and I, my wife and I went to Mexico City to look at his home that he built, some chapel, some ranch. They were always in bright colors. And so that's how it came about. And now it's the most Instagrammed, Instagrammed wall in California and probably in America. It's ridiculous. how many, I think about 400 people a day.

Amazing. Yeah, I mean, that was all by chance. Yeah. And stripes, that's another thing, which people associate with you. Are you sick of them? No. The stripes became my logo without, you know, by default, really. Because in the 90s, I just created a stripe that had lots of colours in it,

thinking it was just for one season. It was a summer season. And then in the winter, I didn't include. it in the collection. And then several of the retailers that buy from us saying, where's the stripe? Where's the stripe? And I said, oh, no, I only did it for one season.

No, we wanted it again. We wanted it again. And then suddenly it became the stripe. And any logo, any logo, I would imagine at some point becomes a bit of a burden. Or you feel like you want to reinvent it because it's attached to a period of time or something, which in fact did happen to me. I can't remember how many years ago now when I completely stopped it, which was an incredibly foolish thing to do financially.

I mean, that's a good failure. Yeah, yeah, it cost me five million quid, I seem to remember. And everybody was going, oh, he's teething the stripe away, he's mad. But what happened is that it was mostly primary colours, and I thought it looked too crude. And so yes, it was a dangerous thing to do, but I redesigned it in more gentle colours and continue it. But the key thing is using it with care, you know. Yes.

You've got a few things like an entire sweater, which is very popular actually. But often it's just a little piece of a lining or tiny thing. You turned 80 in July. Sorry, it was like me. Which I actually can't believe at all. I mean, what's your secret, Sir Paul? You do seem so vibrant and vital and you're still going to the shop every week. Yep, Saturday boy.

Saturday boy. How does it feel being 80? I mean, honestly, it's everybody else that's noticed I'm 80. You know, if nobody have told me, I wouldn't have been. made any difference. That's a burden as well, yeah, because people obviously rather beautifully want to celebrate for you and send you cards and have parties and things. I'm like, no, no, I'm fine, I'm fine.

They've sneaked a few little events in without me knowing. But it's just a number, I think, for me. Luckily, I'm so far, is there any award here? Yeah, here we go. Yeah. Yeah, so far, you know. active, very active, big cyclist, pilates, swim every morning at five. I've always done that, not for any other reason, just that I'd quite like doing it, you know.

So hopefully I could still put my leg into the air yet. Stop it, this is amazing. If you're listening to this podcast rather than watching it, so Paul has just lifted with total ease, his leg up in a balletic posture by his ear. That's extremely impressive. I'm not going to try and echo it. But talking of cycling and a fitness brings us on to your first. failure, which is that cycling accident that I mentioned in the introduction.

Yeah. So you loved cycling from a young age. Yes, I mean, it started really life. I honestly can't really, which is mentioned in the book, actually. I had a lovely childhood, but I can't really remember it. My sister was, he is, eight years old, and my brother was 11 years older. And life really began 11 for me, for two reasons. One is my father bought me a camera

because he was an amateur photographer and that was amazing because using a camera that's about looking and seeing but the other thing he bought me was a bicycle and I was it was a second-hand bicycle and the chap that we bought it from said I'm a member of the local cycle club

if your lad wants to come out on what they call the club runs at the weekend and he's always welcome. Don't worry, we'll take care of him, you know, because I was by that time, 11.5 or 12. No, 11th. Still 11. And then so I started going out at weekends.

And then you'd go out looking around. I'm looking around, everybody, left and right, and saying, there's no parents. Yeah. It was sort of strange and wonderful that you were out with about 20 people and doing 40 miles or 50 miles. and eventually more. And that was an amazing feeling.

So then they persuaded me to start racing at 12 because they have three categories in cycling, a schoolboy, junior, and then the grown-ups. So I started at a schoolboy, then I had a junior license. And then as many, many people know, I had an accident where I hit a car or the car hit me at 17. And that's where my life, that's why I'm here probably with you. Before we get back to that, I'm very interested by what you said there about the sense of freedom.

And it's definitely something I as an amateur cyclist, always feel on a bicycle because you're so in the environment. Yeah. And that, and that a wish of fresh air and being able to watch everything go by. But the experience you had of childhood was essentially that of an only child because your siblings were much older, weren't they? So was there a sort of quietness to your household? Yeah. You know, people often ask me about my parents. And my father had a lovely character, really good with people,

and hopefully I get some of that from him. And my mum, if you once say, oh, my mum, my mum was a mum, and she had a lovely voice. And that's what I really remember from her. So it was a very quiet childhood, but with this quiet creative dad, who's a photographer and as a hobby, and had a dark room in the attic, which we had to climb a little ladder to get to. And he built, of course, my father did everything himself, not for financial reasons, just because he could do it. You said also that your mother, you inherited a kind of conflict avoidance from her.

Yes. Yes, I definitely, I think it's a good thing and a bad thing, I think. From a business point of view, I don't think it's, with the public, I think it's been a great thing. But in-house, it's probably may not being very confrontational and sometimes addressing problems, not that we've had many, but it's probably considered a weakness, really. And of course my clothes are designed in a non-confrontational manner. Whereas when we were starting, there was Vivian, Westwood, around that time, John Paul Gautier, a lot of the famous designers that were very, designing very, very outrageous clothes. Whereas mine, that's why the term classic with a twist came about.

Because, you know, if you look inside something, there's always the little secret. like on the back of your waistcoat that you're wearing, gillet that you're wearing, has got a very beautiful printed photograph, actually, from my father, actually. That's one of your father's photographs? Yeah, of something that we've enlarged, so it looks rather abstract, but it's flower, actually.

Oh, I love knowing that. Yeah, yeah. That's fascinating. What's interesting about it is that when I wear a Paul Smith suit, I feel confident. So in a way, I can dress in a way that's comfortable, but if I did have to have a confrontation, I'd feel more confident doing it. Yeah. Well, that's fabulous to hear.

And also, you know, then you open up and there's a little different coloured jetting in the pocket or there's something hidden under the sleeve. And I remember French film director Truffaut and he got a post with jacket and he was so classical. But then he was so cheeky when he opened it up. a little bit of colour in there. I thought that was, I mean, because if you imagine 1970s, late, there wasn't really any

high fashion for men, especially. A lot for women, but not. So having that just little secret was quite nice. Yes. And of course, the first shop was far smaller than the studio where we are now. It was 12 foot by 12 foot.

And so therefore, there was a real problem with making people relaxed straight away because they walked in and it was they were in front of you straight away so that's how Paul smith shops how the birth of having things like some ceramics or some art or something i'd found on a trip somewhere as well as clothes so that you could walk in and the customer was quite right in front of you and say oh hi i just came on a trip and i found this lovely poster and it was a nice break

which made customers feel relaxed. I love that you dressed Frasassoz Truffaut. I mean, there's not many people going to say that. That's pretty impressive. Yeah, and Godard. Wow. Yeah. I mean, I knew about David Bowie,

but I didn't know about Truffo and Goddard. That's very cool. Okay, going back to the teenage pool, this road traffic accident that you had, it was very serious, wasn't it? Yeah, I mean, it was a three-month-in-hospital job. Yeah. Broke of FEMA, which I'm now pointing out.

out. FEMA, collarbone, two ribs, fingers, nose. So in those days, because it was a long time ago now, they took a long time to heal from that because it was a very slow process. Now I think they just probably

put a bit of stainless steel in your head and you're out in a month or something. But it was a growing up period for me. Of course, Nottingshire, which is where I come from, is, was famous for coal miners. So there was a lot of coal mine accidents. So, you know, when I was in there for three months,

16 people died in, and I, you know, I'd never witnessed that, you know, you see the curtain to go around the bed and you know that, you know, some of them were, some of them were coal mine accidents, motorbike accidents, car accidents. My flexibility helped, and they, in the,

those days even because they nicknamed me the praying mantis. Because I had one leg that was free and one leg that was in traction. And I developed the ability to have a spoon in the foot and make jokes about, oh, I'm just going to get my own lunch with my flexibility. So you were eating yogurt with your foot, basically. The spoon held in your foot. In my toes, yeah. Amazing.

Yeah, yeah. So that amused a lot of the other patients and cheered them up. Humours have been such an important part of my life and I think it's a vital ingredient. My Japanese team, you know, I have quite a lot of shops in Japan and a big office there. They say, oh, Paul's job, yes, head of happiness. That's my job. What a great job. I do clothes as well. Yeah.

So at 17, you have these three months in hospital. Are you ever scared? Yeah, I mean, while I was scared, I wouldn't be able to walk or ride a bike again because, you know, your joints lock up even at that young age. And my sweet dad, I knew that he did it. He never told me he did it, but my cycling friends were coming in and we said, oh, we did this run last week. I was in that race and I was getting more and more sad by hearing, I suppose, envious of their

the fact that they was doing it and then suddenly they came but didn't talk about it and I thought I know my dad's had a word with them a sweet man you've left school by this point 15 yes it was not good at school well I probably was okay but I just couldn't concentrate

and also I didn't know until a lot longer later that I suffered from dyslexia which I'd love to be able to spell I can't. So this cycling accident at 17 actually changes the course of your life in many ways. How do you then end up in fashion? Well, what happened was that because of my activities in the sort of chatting to other people in the ward and the hospital, two of the other patients, we got to know each other, even though we never actually shook hands because they were locked in beds.

as well. And by chance we were all released at the same time. And one of them said, why do we just keep in touch, you know, because we all got on so well. And one of them just said, oh, well, let's meet in Nottingham and chose a place called the Berlin in Nottingham, which is where the art students, that was their watering hole. It's now called the university, but then it was called an art school. So there was architecture students, photography students. fine artists and fashion. And then meeting them with my sort of ability to be able to chat to people, suddenly this world opened up to me.

And one of the little groups I got to know, there was a girl that was, her father was setting her up with a little shop, a clothes shop. And she said, oh, poor, do you mind trying to help me with a shop? I don't know how to open a shop. I don't know how you get to shop. I can make the clothes. And I said, yeah, sure, like I really knew, which I, of course, didn't really know.

So suddenly at 17, 18 by then, I was talking to, which is completely normal now, but then talking to somebody called an estate agent or a solicitor about a lease. So that was amazing. So I helped her and then worked as a shop assistant there, then did the window dressing. And then eventually we started to buy men's clothes because she was a. a women's designer. And then the big turning point was Pauline, of course, three years in to that job. Because I'd stayed close to the art school.

Whenever there were events on, I was always invited to the art school events. And then when my 21st birthday, my father very generously gave me £21, which immediately spent on alcohol. And all my pals, we went to this place called the Yates'est. Wine Lodge in Nottingham and with the arts students and Pauline came along with the students because she was teaching two days a week in Nottingham.

She lived in London and had two children. Did you know straight away? I mean, of course she's called Pauline so in many ways it feels destined. Yeah. But that night on your 21st birthday, the serendipity of it, you didn't know. Not at all.

And all my friends were saying, oh, she's amazing. You see, she looks so cool. And I was just a boy, you know, that I was like into Dylan and Zeppelin and all their bands and drinking and mucking about. I use the word mucking about intentionally because it was just boyish, you know. And I mean, she was the main reason I'm here with you now, really. The crash, of course. Yes.

And then Pauline because she set a standard, which is very important in fashion. So the suit you're wearing is really beautiful. because she set the standard of the correct pads, how it's constructed, what the interlining is, quality of the button, the quality of the buttonhole. And that's been very important for longevity. Pauline sounds an extraordinary woman. You have known her now for almost 60 years. Yeah, we met in 67.

How have you kept your relationship both parents? personal and professional on a secure footing in all that time. Well, I mean, I think within this interview, with everything we do, we both hope we get a nice interview out of it. So it's very much about balance. It's very much about knowing when to listen, which I'm not very good at this morning. Sorry about that.

I'm talking too much. No, you're talking wonderfully. When to listen, when to talk, try to be interested, interesting. The key thing is when you come at home, home at night is don't just keep talking about what you've done. Just be interested in what she's done and how her day was and how she's feeling. And then, of course, the other thing is she's fantastic, which probably think we might, I think you hinted at. We might be talking about later on, but feet on the ground. Yeah.

Yeah. Before we get onto that, you mentioned that she had two children when you met. So age 21, I speak as a step-parent myself. That's a lot to take on and also a joy in many ways. But step-parenting, I feel, doesn't get spoken about that much. And I would love to know about your experience. How have you found it? We're purposely quite private about that aspect of it.

If you can imagine, without me dwelling on it too much, I was leaving home with my mom and dad. And suddenly I had a lady from London with two children, two dogs and two cats. So it was quite a move forward. Yeah. But the age group, of course it was quite different. Seven and, what was it, six and eight or something. But I mean, in a way, you're similar, especially with them because of my playfulness.

Have you ever gone through a period of your life where you've lost your playfulness? Never. Oh, that's good. I adore it. And it's not a forced thing. It's a completely natural thing. Home is one of those things I really care about. It's where I write.

It's where I decompress. It's where my husband and I debrief after a hectic day. So I am obsessed with making it feel nice. And there's been one thing in our sitting room that has driven me mad for ages, and that's the rug. It's just too small and it's kind of floating in the middle of the room and I've known it's not right for ages but not quite done anything about it. Then I discovered Ernestor who make designer quality rugs custom cut to the exact dimensions of your space. You simply send Anesta's design team photos and the dimensions of your room and they'll help you work out exactly what size you need, completely free of charge.

They then cut and finish your rug to order and can deliver it in as little as two weeks. Visit Anesta.com and order five samples for only $10 and you'll get $50 towards any rug of your choice. That's E-R-N-E-S-T-A.com. Autumn is all about getting back into a routine for me and that includes finding a beauty regime that actually works for my day-to-day. Merit Beauty's thoughtfully edited lineup is designed to help me get a natural polished look in just a few minutes so I can spend less time getting ready. Their products are amazing. Trust me on this. They make your skin look so glowy. And they also blend and layer seamlessly. Start with great skin serum for an instant healthy looking glow. Then use the minimalist, which works as both foundation and concealer for quick buildable coverage. Finish with clean volume mascara for an effortless polished look in five minutes. Right now, Merritt Beauty is offering our listeners their signature makeup bag. I have it. It's great. It's free with your first order at meritbeautcom. And because your order ships from the UK, you'll have faster shipping, no additional duties or fees, and free shipping on orders over 50 pounds. That's merit,

M-E-R-I-T-Beauty.com. Meritbeauty.com. Some evil thing happened here. Three people die in a quiet suburb in Mississauga, Canada. It's not a coincidence. One after the other. In the same. same house. Is this bad luck, or something more sinister? The worst investigative mess I've ever encountered. A long simmering what took you so fucking long to get here. From Sony Music Entertainment, this is What Happened to the Harrisons.

I'm Amy Dempsey Raven. What Happened to the Harrisons is available now on the binge. Search for it wherever you get your podcasts to start listening today. Subscribers to The Binge can listen to all episodes, all at once, ad free. Okay, so going on to your second failure, it is about the people that Pauline calls them. Yeah. Who are they? Yeah, I mean, them have been, in the early days, just another boutique, as they were called,

then opening in Nottingham, you know, which, if you can imagine, When we first opened, October the 9th, 1970, there was really no fashion shops in provincial towns around the country. But then, you know, probably into two years in, there'd be a boutique open. And it'd be like, oh, they've opened and people are going to them. And then... This would be you fearing this, overfixating your competition. Yeah. Yeah, worried about them.

Yes, yes. And then, of course, so that's on a very small level. But then what happens in, this is not just me for sure. It's almost everybody in the fashion industry probably fairly insecure. Around the table where I work with my designers, there's always the comparison of, oh, have you seen what this brand's doing or what that's brands? Oh, we really should be doing that. or it's gone very minimal

or our shops look too dated now shouldn't we be doing so there's always this comparison of what other people are doing and so the danger is and this is a failure or a joy

I don't know which losing your focus and worrying too much about them and that can be seen as a failure really for instance if suddenly walked in a pulse of shop and it was white with black floor and everybody was wearing black and there was no music. People would feel very what's happened here.

So it's the danger, the failure is worrying too much about what other people do. Oh, that's amazing to hear because I'm also someone who falls into comparisonitis and have had periods in the past of feeling like, well, look at all these other people and they're doing so much better and I should exactly as you say be more like them. And it's taken me quite a while to work out that as you say, you should actually drill deeper down into what makes you, you, than trying to please absolutely everyone. And it takes, it takes, you know, a certain security, a certain mind to be able to do that. Yeah, you've got to feel quite confident without being arrogant. That's the, that's the important thing. And be yourself as well.

But, you know, the problem is, is the communication now and the information that we get through that little thing we carry in our pocket. You know, Pauline has no telephone. Really? Yeah. And we have no email. Amazing. And we have no computer. Okay.

So, you know, when you don't allow yourself to be bombarded with comparisons, they've got two cars. Oh, they've got three houses. Oh, my God. they've just sold for a billion pounds, don't worry about it. You've got your health, you've got your happiness, you enjoy the sunshine, you enjoy the rain, camaraderie, talk, speech, conversation. I mean, there's so many joys in everyday life that we seem to have been missing the point. You know, large amounts of money can't bring your health and happiness.

So wise. How long and how, how long did it take you to feel secure in yourself and what you offered? And how did you get there? I think the security at home has always been very important. And a lot of my colleagues and friends haven't had security at home. And I think that's difficult because you're always looking, you're always searching for friendship or love or, and that's insecure.

obviously, and uses a lot of energy up, which isn't to do with your work. So I was just really lucky to have that at home, which means that my day is very much about concentrating on the job. And has Pauline always been someone who is very clear, who is able to delineate between us and them more clearly? Without question, yeah. Very, very, and very shy, person, very well read, very simple in her way of thinking about things. Just, and not at all impressed by wealth or material things.

Not at all. No, I'm far more interested in the beauty of a day, you know. Talking about this failure specific. Has there ever been a time with your business where you have really worried about its future and found yourself straying and thinking, well, maybe we should be slightly different? Definitely, definitely Brexit and COVID. And that's in the book, very honestly, very, very honestly. Because it was a complete nightmare, you know, because Brexit was just something that we absolutely didn't want.

And that immediate we had all these new rules about trading with the various countries around the world and more paperwork and a different way of doing things and having to itemize absolutely where everything came from. You can't say made in Italy. You have to say where the yarn comes from. So it was massively complicated. A big user of money and time and energy. And then, of course, COVID, 16 weeks without trading anywhere in the world. So as an independent company, you haven't got any secret, you know, a lot of the big brands have so many diverse businesses. So there might be a fashion, they might have 60 fashion brands, but also they have sports centres and water or alcohol or, you know, so they've got different income streams.

Whereas when you're Paul Smith, he's Paul Smith. So that was real user of money. Of course, just as a little side thing, you know, I was in my building on my own every day during COVID. And that's the start of the book is quite amusing about some of the things that happened. But what... The milk. Did you remember?

Yeah, yeah. Tell us the milk story. And then I will. I only realized the other day, I wore a suit every day. and I was on my own in the building because I just find suits really useful pocket for the specs handkerchief keys credit card

notebook pen the milk yeah I mean obviously you wasn't it a Tuesday we got told to stop work and on the Wednesday I was allowed to go in because I went in a car on my own into a building on my own and the first thing was of course 120 waste bins

with leftover sandwiches from the day before. So I emptied those. And I was like, I wonder if Giorgio, Mr. Oman, is doing this right now. And then about two weeks in, I arrived and there was this terrible, terrible smell. And I realised that 18 litres of milk in the kitchen, when we have guests, had exploded and it took me three hours to clean it off the floor. You know what? It was great.

Yeah, it didn't matter at all. It was fantastic. I had to mend the electric gate because my car got stuck in. I had to work out the irrigation system on the roof garden. Just don't worry about it. Just get on with it. It's fine. I thought it was brilliant.

Yeah, well, it sounds to me like your dad. Oh, yeah, exactly. I'm not my dad. It's very impressive that you have stayed true to Paul Smith values. in a world of homogeneity, especially in fashion. And you've combined that with doing a lot of collaborations. You've actually stayed true to your identity no matter what. Yeah.

How hard has that been sometimes? Well, saying no to most collaborations is the key. Listen to your tummy and just go, barber. I've always loved barber. It's a British brand. It's fantastic. It goes from a trendy person. Gladstonebury to the king.

You know, it's so fabulous, yes. Barber, we do that. And there's one out at the moment, which is extraordinarily popular. Mini, I've always driven a mini car. So we've got a Paul Smith mini. So it's just a matter of doing things that feel correct. I'd love to know some of those collaborations you've turned down,

but I'm not going to ask you because I know you. Well, I can tell you a very ridiculous one, which I got a sketch sent to me. of a very bad drawing of me at an ironing board. As an ironing board. And an iron. So I did decline that one. Of course, with ironing board.

That was brilliant. We're going to take a quick break now. But Sir Paul, you will be back to discuss a failure about believing your own hype. One of the things we talk about so often on this podcast is how life can change in the quietest, most unexpected ways. And that's at the heart of a new Roman. novel, Lucky 22, a story about timing, trust, and the kind of connection that grows softly but surely. It follows Ella Rose Holt, an actress in Los Angeles, who believes in small everyday magic, and Christian Lucas, a professional baseball player, when a chance encounter, a lucky number,

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Home is one of those things I really care about. It's where I write, it's where I decompress, it's where my husband and I debrass. It's where my husband and I debrief after a hectic day. So I am obsessed with making it feel nice. And there's been one thing in our sitting room that has driven me mad for ages, and that's the rug. It's just too small. And it's kind of floating in the middle of the room.

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Visit Anester.com and order five samples for only $10, and you'll get $50 towards any rug of your choice. That's E-R-N-E-S-T-A dot com. Your final failure is the danger of believing your own hype. Tell us about this. I mean, that's a big problem for matters of human beings. I don't know whether you agree. Definitely.

I mean, we've seen it happen so much with ego and narcissism. And, of course, this unbelievable narcissistic society we're living today. You know, when I'm driving around London, you know, just the quantity of people posing and taking photographs themselves. and then taking 40 pictures and looking at them immediately. So that whole thing about self-importance is baffling to me. And then, of course, you know, you've been, you've done amazing things. And so you just, if you don't, if you're not careful, you start thinking, believe in your own over publicity in some cases

or a lot of publicity. So I've never, I mean, Pauley's been brilliant with that. I mean, you know, you get back from a very important trip and she reminds you that you've got to put the rubbish out and have the car MOT. You know, it's great. Were there moments when you feel that your ego was being inflated, that you needed that?

I mean, you just have to be, you just have to pinch yourself and, you know, stop yourself from, you know, from getting carried away with it. In Japan, you know, for many, many years, I was really like a rock star over there, you know, get there, you get mobbed, you get, you get cornered in the street and had to escape through a fire escape and all sorts of things. I did a talk in a university there,

and they said, oh, there's going to be at least 600 people in the audience, and we arrived in those 2,800 people. And I did the talk twice back to back for everybody. And so, you know, if you don't, if you're not careful, you could end up thinking how wonderful you are, whereas you're just, hopefully, just interesting and full of character. Why do you think you are so beloved in Japan? Hard work, I think, and respecting their ways. I went there in the 80s.

I was invited there in 82. and during that time a lot of European and American designers were invited over because they were very cash rich as a country then and they were trying to invest in the future. So they invented a lot of not just fashion designers, product designers, furniture designers, interior designers, interior designers. And many, many, many of them went and in my opinion were very disrespectful in the fact that they were like, oh yes, we go there.

we're treated VIP and we earn money, great money, and you don't really have to do anything. And, of course, a lot of people went there that were very demanding about first class travel, chauffeur driven car, top hotel. And so many of them just fell by the wayside. I just got this invitation to go to Japan. I was like, Japan? Wow, how exciting is that? And then I said, oh, my director must come as well.

Pauline. So we went 18 hours via Anchorage economy class. We could hardly stand up after we were so tiny. The aeroplane was so tiny. And just to go there and just think this amazing opportunity to come here. Of course it's very popular now with tourism now because of the yen and many many visitors now. But then 82, almost nobody spoke English. And of course I'm quite tall. So everybody was like looking at you taking pictures all the pictures of course was up your nose

because they were all quite tiny and the photographs from below but I went there thinking wow this is amazing and respecting the history respecting their way of working their humble approach to things but then the only thing I could

not fault but observe that it was a bit too chauvinistic But we as a company, we adjusted that enormously. So we've got a lot of our key staff from ladies as well as gentlemen. And I think there's 145 shops now in Japan. Incredible. Mr. Omani, who sadly passed away last year, but he was a friend of mine and he always said to me,

how did you break into the Japanese market? It's so interesting, so interesting. I just said by going and listening and, absorbing and then trying to integrate rather than, you know, just go like a, you know, too strong. How interesting. And it takes us right back to the beginning when we were talking about the power of attention because attention is a form of politeness and generosity and that combined with your curiosity.

What a success story. I'm very interested in how your mind works. You said earlier you feel like your mind is a bit crazy. Yeah, I don't really know. I mean, it's very lateral. Right. I'm a huge lateral thinker. Big fan of Edward de Bono, the famous lateral thinker.

I always think left and right of the obvious. So go left and right of the obvious, but still respecting the principle of what it is you're trying to do. And then you'll be okay. When it comes to inspiration for collections, I know because your spring summer 2027, which I love the label you gave it, suits in unsuitable situations. Yeah.

And that came from a specific memory. Yeah, that was a picture of my granddad on the beach in Skegness in Lincolnshire with his trousers rolled in a suit, in the sea, with his trousers rolled up with me age three or something. And just the fact that my father passed away when he was 92, he wore suit every day. a shirt and tie every day at home, every day. Almost every human being male wore a suit. You wore a suit for school. There wasn't anything called casual wear. It was always suits.

And then so that made me think about suits in the wrong place, you know, which is quite fun, I think. And do you often get sort of an image that will then spark a creative thought? Yes, yep. I mean, I was just with, there's a Spanish magazine is doing a big project with me at the moment and they were fascinated by this folder I've got of all my little notes,

which are just pieces of paper that when I write things down and they said, oh, what's this one? It says butterfly wings. And I said, oh, well, I just love the iridescent quality of a butterfly wing that's got this shine to it. So that, for me, interpreted into mercerising a cotton. Mercerising means to give it a shiny finish. Just came from looking at a butterfly.

So very strange. Sorry, I'm a bit weird. No, it's very beautiful. I've learnt something today. Mercerising. Never heard that before. Yeah, mercerized cotton. It gives it to shiny, crunchy quality.

And it's sort of that if you look at the centre of a butterfly's wood, It's sort of very sort of odd because there's two incorrect colours together often that go. Oh, gosh, I could listen to you talk all day about creativity and staying true to yourself. I wonder, final question, what your lovely father, what do you think he'd make of you now? There were two things that impressed my dad with me. He never really knew exactly what I did, really. but when there was a little feature in the Beast and Gazette and Echo, which was the local newspaper,

my mum and dad were very pleased. And then when I got the freedom of the city of Nottingham, we were very pleased. So he was pleased at those two things and a lot more probably, but I think he'd be pleased with my good manners. I'm sure he would, and I'm sure he'd be pleased that he worked out of the irrigation system on the roof garden. He'd be very pleased about that.

Yeah, so was I. To be honest, I got this call one day from an emergency call that said that they was in our room where all the computers are. It's overheating. I didn't even know we had a room with computers. Then I had to find out the code to get into the room. And then I had to find a fan and put the fan to. Try and cool it down. Then I opened the window and a seagull tried to come in.

And so I thought, I can't have you in here. So I had to close the door. So I thought, how can I get some wind into the room, air into the room? So I built out of wood a frame with gaps in it and put the wood there. So the seagull couldn't get in, but the wind could get in. So we kept the whatever that big computer, probably worth a grillion. a trillion pounds, kept cool. Is this during COVID as well?

Yeah. Oh my gosh. So, Paul, you are a phenomenon. You really are. You fix things and you make us all feel better while doing so. Thank you so much. Thank you for dressing me for many years. And thank you for being.

Well, it's lovely to talk to you. Thank you. Oh, it's so lovely to talk to you too. Before you go, we're going to dive into some listener questions over on Failing with Friends. Recently I had David Siddharis on and he gave some quite bold advice, particularly to a listener. who was failing to feel content in their own life. So stay put and we'll do that next. Thank you so much for coming on How to Fail.

Thank you. Bye. Please do follow How to Fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts, please tell all your friends. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.