How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - Sophie Willan - From Foster Care to Alma’s Not Normal

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Starting point is 00:02:23 You deserve quality care from someone who cares. I'm delighted to say that this episode was recorded with a lovely live audience at the Lowry in Salford, Manchester. My guest tonight is Sophie Willen, a double BAFTA award-winning writer, comedian and actor, most known for her BBC comedy drama, Alma's Not Normal. The show which has been acclaimed by critics as uplifting, strangely enchanting, and Phoenix Knights meets Fleabag, guided by the spirit of Victoria Wood, is loosely based on Willem's own experiences growing up in the care system after her mother struggled with mental health issues and addiction. It was an unsettled childhood with spells in foster care, and it was while being looked after by her grandmother, Denise, that Willen discovered her love of acting. On holiday in Abitha, aged eight, she joined the hotel's drama club

Starting point is 00:03:24 and was promptly given her first role as a crying clown. Willan began her arts career in theatre and spent several years as a stand-up, including a nationwide tour in 2017. But it was the release of Alma's Not Normal in 2021 that gained her a whole new audience. She is the show's writer, executive producer, and central lead.

Starting point is 00:03:48 Last week, the show won three Royal Television Society Awards and Willen was nominated for two more BAFTAs. Best female comedy performance, yes, and best scripted comedy. When you've had a varied upbringing, you do have a lot more empathy because you've seen a lot, Willen says. I think that all helps with being a writer. That's been a positive outcome of my experience, and I love that.

Starting point is 00:04:15 Salford, please put your hands together and welcome to the stage, the one and only, Sophie Willem. Sophie, it's probably nice for you to have a sit down after the week that you've had. Yeah, it's been quite full of. It's nice to be back here. So, congratulations on the RTS Awards

Starting point is 00:04:36 and the new BAFTA nominations. But you've said, I know, amazing. I know. So thoroughly deserved. you've said that we're not getting a series three no no I just can't be bothered no I did want to do Christmas special but BBC can't afford to do solo specials at the minute but they did say series three and I thought all right let's have a think about this and I did make myself laugh thinking of you know

Starting point is 00:05:04 Lynn and Jim on an escalator going to in London going to visit Alma you know because they're dead busy aren't they they look you know they could just imagine them We go, get me down, and we're going up or down. But that's as far as I got. It just started to become very sitcomy, you know, and I couldn't find the meaning for it. So I thought, do you know what, just don't be greedy. Is there a part of you as well that even though you do this incredible thing with Alma

Starting point is 00:05:31 where the tone is buoyant and heartbreaking, and there's such important messaging in there, and yet it's also hilarious. It's all of the things. but you are looking at your own trauma and I wonder if you've just got a bit tired of that too it's knackering well it's the crying clown all out again isn't it but yeah it's tiring and also what you want to do is use your experiences

Starting point is 00:05:55 as a metaphor to make political statements or whatever so they don't feel heavy-handed but what's nice is now I can do that with other stories not my own but using effective memory effective memories where you know actors use it you know use your own experience to channel empathy for other experiences when you're acting. You can still do that as a writer, but it doesn't have to be, you know, so close to home. What do prizes mean to you?

Starting point is 00:06:24 I don't know, actually, it's a big question, isn't it? I mean, they're quite weird, aren't there? The whole thing, because you don't start off a competitive... Well, I didn't... I don't start off a competitive person. And I always go, really, Zen, like, you know, it's all about just celebrating. We're here together. If I don't, when I'm like, you're fucking assholes! I know, and Chivon, we were at the awards this time,

Starting point is 00:06:46 and she just turned round to me like a toddler, and she went, I just really want us to win them all tonight. And she's in her 50s, so there's no... This is Shavon who plays Alma's mother. Yeah, Shavon Finnerent. So I thought if she's like that and she's in her 50s, there's no hope, is that? Because a video of you receiving your first BAFTA went viral.

Starting point is 00:07:08 That's the problem. And that was a genuine shock, because I didn't know I was going to be nominated. And now, I'm like, only two. It's like, slowly you become an asshole. You become corrupts it. You do have to work hard, don't you, and reining that in? But explain to us, for anyone who hasn't seen that deliriously lovely video of you receiving your first ever baffa, tell us the story

Starting point is 00:07:31 because it was on the strength of the pilot alone. Yeah, so it was really shocked. So I was filming Alma the series after doing the past. pilot and we were in lockdown. I was ended up staying in like a converted stable because we couldn't because we lived in a tiny flat and my poor boyfriend at the time he he had a choice either comes to me to comes with me to a converted stable or I don't see him for six weeks so and he wasn't working because he was a comedian so he was obviously locked down so I just kept coming home to this sort of sad horse like hanging out of the stable like me he's really

Starting point is 00:08:08 Anyway, and then I found out, unfortunately, my grandma passed away in the middle of filming, who was, you know, the Grandma Joan character was based on. She got to see the pilot and she loved her. She was really chuff. And she went, I'm just very proud of every rebellious decision I've ever made. That's a lovely reaction. But she died on the second day of filming, which I just thought, you know, what a bitch. It's really her that.

Starting point is 00:08:35 You know, she was such a show-off. It was like, she'd always... And she died on a super rare pink moon. You know, it's like always wanting to like show stop. We get it. And she lingered for fucking ages. And then she finally went. And it was like, of course you're going to go.

Starting point is 00:08:53 She was supposed to have gone a year before. Stubborn. Stubborn, selfish. Anyway, she finally died on this beautiful moon. And it was really sad. And I turned my phone off. And the next one I woke up and there was people saying, congratulations oh I was like I know she was a complicated woman still's mixed and

Starting point is 00:09:17 then it was because I've been nominated for a BAFTA I didn't even know BBC had submitted me I didn't know you could do it for a pilot's I was gobsmatt and I was nominated at the same moment that grandma died exactly I know which you woe yeah it was really weird wow yeah and so there's this video of you hearing that you've won the Yeah, sorry, you did ask me. Sorry, I will... No, your answer was a much better story. I can see her eyes going, oh, fuck, this is going to be a long night. What at all?

Starting point is 00:09:48 Yeah, so there's a video. So basically, we had to do, watch it on the laptop in this, you know, horse is stable with my sad horse boyfriend. And that's how they did all the winds and stuff. And I thought, you know, put a little dress on. I wasn't expected to win. I genuinely wasn't. Now I expect it all. That become very entitled. You know, it happens like I say over time. But at this point I was all humble, you know, but we're in sequence because I think you've got to be. And then I won't and I just went nuts. I was running around the farm. I was talked to a tractor at one point.

Starting point is 00:10:24 I was like, I won a fucking bastard to a truck, to us tractor. Then the neighbours came out. Someone's dying. I'm sort of having a meeting with all the neighbours telling them all about it. It was mad. It's pure serotonin If anyone needs a little lift Go and Google that video Because your joy in that moment Is a sight to behold Is it true that you've named your BAFTAs?

Starting point is 00:10:47 Oh yeah Tell us the names Just dead simple really Julie After Julie Walters That's she's number two actually Caroline for number one After Carolina Hearn

Starting point is 00:10:58 Because I won the Carolina Hermbersory as well And to Caroline And Julie after Julie Walters I want to get straight into your because there's so much that I want to talk to you about. Your first failure, school, GCSE's college, as you put it to me. So academia for you, did it seem like a waste of time? Did it seem slightly pointless given everything else that was going on in your life? Well, I just wasn't

Starting point is 00:11:23 very good at it. I can go back to primary school and think I was actually really struggled because I used to write down one word and think my handwriting wasn't neat enough and scrunch it up. so I was like obsessively trying to be perfectionistic drive which often happens with care experience abandonment issues all that sort of stuff and then by the time I got to secondary school I just well in primary school I had too much energy I used to just get up and walk out the room

Starting point is 00:11:50 my teacher go where you go and I said oh I fancy a stroll you know like it was Bernard's watch or something and I just paused everything and Bernard's watch yeah I don't know why I thought it was okay but that continued through secondary school when you say it's a very profound thing you said about care experienced people having a perfectionist tendency yeah i imagine that's because love feels finite and that you have to be quote unquote good in case you're not lovable enough to stay yeah definitely can drive you

Starting point is 00:12:23 into performative behavior um which is quite funny isn't it sort of stood here going love me laugh at me But yeah, it does drive you to performative behaviour or love is conditional and these are all the things you have to unpick over years of therapy I've found, yeah. When did your experience of care start? How old were you? Probably around, well, I had social workers

Starting point is 00:12:48 from quite a young age, really, from about five or six. Yeah, and then it continued. But yeah, in terms of school, I think I had sort of difficult in primary school, because I was just like, It was like trying to contain a wild animal. I didn't understand the rules because it was very, I didn't have, especially in my time with my mum,

Starting point is 00:13:06 I say in Alma Mowgli with a mullet. So it was kind of like trying to explain to Mowgli that you can't punch someone in the face when you're a bit upset. Like it was baffling to me. So I would find myself I got in trouble a lot. And, you know, just accidental. And then in secondary school,

Starting point is 00:13:21 I just wasn't ever very good at routine, sitting down. I was excluded like Alma for arriving drunk in a business. bikini you know and then that continued college was upsetting because I actually got into college and even though I didn't have the qualifications I got in I was doing quite well I was doing really well because I did drama so I kept getting distinction so I was really chuff with that but I tried it two years on a row once in Bolton once in Bristol but what happened was I think I started to

Starting point is 00:13:54 slowly process all the stuff that had been going on and I was independent living my last year of secondary school and the two years of college and that was quite a lot living alone and going to college is a really weird experience you know because all your friends you'd go out partying with them on the weekend and then they'd all be like right got to go home i'm going for sunday tea now and got to have a bath and my mum's got me whatever and you would just i was just in my weird little flats usually with no electricity because i'd i'd spent it all on ecstasy tablets man do you know I mean, so I couldn't do up the meter. I sort of lying in candlelight, like do-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-o on a come-down,

Starting point is 00:14:33 having been at Wigan Pier. Do you know what I mean? There was no structure. Yeah. What was your understanding of what was happening to you around that time? It's just, I was just trying to survive. You're just surviving. You're in survival mode, aren't you?

Starting point is 00:14:47 And also you're in fight-flight. And being on your own isn't an easy thing to do when you're like 16, 17, 18. That's quite difficult, especially when you come forward. from these experiences. So a lot of people enjoy being alone. I've had to learn that. And I do enjoy it now because I've got a dog so I can talk to the dog and she goes,

Starting point is 00:15:08 yeah, no, I know what you mean? And that's great, but it was like a whole thing. So when I worked with Kerr experienced people now, younger people, there was one girl I used to work with quite a lot and she was brilliant and I could see her mind was fantastic, really dynamic. I also knew she was living alone and I could see this thing that I used to do

Starting point is 00:15:26 I'd perform excellence, you know, I'm sorted, I am good, I'm, you know, I'm healthy, I'm normal, I'm sorted because what you don't want to be is a tragic case, you know, and you get put in these categories very quickly, oh, you're a problem child, or you're a tragic case, or you're some sort of hero, you know, you're real, you know, you put you on a pedestal, we'll make a mascot of you. And this young girl was exception, you could see that, and I saw her start getting wheeled out to all these things and she's being wheeled out and but I could see there was some things and sometimes she wouldn't turn up and then she was and then she was brilliant and I realized there was more going on and it was the fact that she was alone in her flat and I went to visit her to

Starting point is 00:16:10 see what the flat was like and she was so similar to myself because she'd made it look really nice but for what it is because the windows are shit I mean there were tiny little windows her window. It's like my word. It's like being in a chicken coop and she tried to make it nice. But ultimately, the environment is not an anxiety-free environment. And to be there on your own at 17 years old in an environment like that, that is not an easy situation. And I think there's no support for that really. I don't think they think that through. Yeah. Because how do you self-soothe when you've never been taught how to do that? And how do you self-sue at 17 when you alone in a weird flat that you've tried to make nicer with candles but you've got some crazy

Starting point is 00:16:54 neighbour above you which she had and I'd had as well so you know I think there's these sorts of things that people don't consider I'm so struck when you tell me that story about how you showed up for that young girl in a motherly way and I'm very aware that we're talking on mother's day and I wonder how a day like that lands for you given the complexity of your maternal relationships well I don't carry it with me now. I mean I'm 37. I've done a lot of therapy and I'm generally quite joyful but I do think at certain times in your life it can be really hard and you're surprised I mean I had a time when I was like 27 or something I was having a really rough time and it felt really poignant for me then randomly it might happen again in the future I don't know so it does come up and I think

Starting point is 00:17:42 the problem with all these things like you know Mother's Day or Christmas or these things they're in your face aren't there you know I went on the tube today and there's like hundreds of you know awkward looking boys actually with flowers to take to their mum you know so I suppose that's the thing but I suppose for me I feel in a very different place in this chapter I think in this chapter I was actually thinking recently I'm 37 years old you literally spend the first half of your life unpicking what you inherited when you were born you know I inherited quite a lot of chaos and confusion and all these different things and I think I've spent like most of my life positively unpicking that you know we've had lots of joy but I have spent a long time working that out and as I've got to the second bit now I think well actually I'm in the second half of my life I'm literally born you know if I was thinking I was born tomorrow I'd go I'm born into privilege security secure attachment style I've got a really good setup now so actually I feel that's quite a special thing to be able to be born

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Starting point is 00:19:56 slash fail. Go to Shopify.com.com.uk slash fail. Here, your first, this new year, with Shopify by your side. This week on Lipsick on the Rim, we sat down with the one and only Rachel Zoe, and wow, this episode is a ride. We talked about everything. motherhood, divorce, finding herself again, joining real housewives literally overnight, and then

Starting point is 00:20:22 she said this. Can I tell you a true story? In COVID, in the darkness of COVID, I had a cat eye every single day where nobody saw me, not one soul, and when I had COVID, not even my ex-husband saw me or my children. And you know what I did? I went in to my bathroom. I did a black liquid liner, put on lashes, black liner in the water line, a full lip, did my hair, and sat in my bed. And that is what I did. And I looked at myself and I said, you are not a well person. I said, are you fucking okay?

Starting point is 00:21:06 You have 104 fever. You are like, you are like contagion right now. If you love fashion, beauty, or bravo, this Rachel Zoe episode. is a must. It's out now. In Alma's Not Normal, there is this incredible episode where Alma is given her records from her care experience. Why was that episode important for you? Well, I suppose because we don't often see the care experience on screen.

Starting point is 00:21:41 You know, you don't see it positively represented or honestly represented. think and I've never seen it in a comedy and I've never seen it where you know you honestly go well this is really hard and really shit but also there is hope you will be okay I've never seen that I mean the Joker gets his records don't he and he goes on a killing spring yes it's not great you know it's not ideal so and that sort of thing happens you know it's like always very negative orbit over romantic so it's like actually for me just wanting to explain it how it actually was when I opened my records. It was really quite a lot.

Starting point is 00:22:18 It is such a moving episode and Alma refuses to be oppressed by what she finds. And it's also an episode which Lem Sissay appears in. Yeah, yeah. Who is a former guest on this podcast and also care experienced person.

Starting point is 00:22:32 How important has your friendship been with Lem? Wonderful. I've known Lem years. So we started at contact theatre together which is probably... And I saw... Well, actually, we didn't start together. He was at contact and then I went to contact and then he came back from London to do a show there and I remember just thinking that's brilliant

Starting point is 00:22:49 he's actually talking about his care experience and he's doing well because I assume that if you started talking about it or anybody really knew your background you know it'd be kind of not good you know you might not get the work or you might be seen as a bit of a problem or I had a lot of shame about it and I think things were different then I don't there was definitely not a hashtag that said hashtag curleaver you know that's very new which is brilliant yeah it's been politicised. We have a language to explain our experiences, people listen. Before it was just a very solo experience and a bit weird. So when I saw him, I think that was the beginning of percolating about actually you can be more open about your experiences. Now Alma's not normal

Starting point is 00:23:31 is very, very funny. But as you mentioned before, you also make political meaning from your comedy. And there's one particular speech that Alma gives in season two where it's a about how many cuts have been made to the care system and about how no one has asked Alma's mother what happened to you as opposed to what's wrong with you? And I thought that was so powerful. And I just wanted to ask you a bit about your process, how hard that is to judge that balance.

Starting point is 00:24:03 Weirdly, I don't actually find that difficult. I mean, I find the, you know, writing's hell. But getting that tone does come naturally. That's the one thing I'm quite happy with. And also a lot of it's in the edit because it's getting that right as well, you know. But I suppose I think that's just genuinely how I kind of see the world is kind of, you know, sad moments are naturally quite funny. And funny moments have always got sadness there, haven't they? So I think that tone comes naturally, especially if you've got something you really need to say that you really care about.

Starting point is 00:24:34 You know, I mean, I know I'm like making a lot of jokes, but generally I think if you kind of, as long as you've been really honest and true to what you need to. to say the humour will come anyway so you know you can just follow it yeah follow the the true feeling do you remember the first time you made someone laugh no actually but i am hilarious you are hilarious no i remember my granddad used to find me funny and it's not funny he looks a bit like a wallace and grommet characters you know got a round head no neck so i used to go like that to not even wandsledale it's not funny he found it allurious And there we go. And you liked the feeling, I'm guessing.

Starting point is 00:25:16 Yeah, I think so. I mean, I must have done. We're all quite funny in my family, though. It's like a family of, you know, emotionally deranged people that have a good sense of humour. But then this is a thing, you can't not find things funny. I mean, I've got an Uncle Malcolm who's got schizophrenia.

Starting point is 00:25:32 And, you know, the last time I saw him, he chased me down the road with a cricket bat. When I was a child, we don't know why. He was just in a bad mood, and he always was a bob at. And then I saw him again. my great-grandnie's funeral and it was like nothing had happened and he's outside he's got two security guards with him like massive lads and he's quite small and he was singing with the two

Starting point is 00:25:53 security lads outside the funeral we'll meet again Vera lynn but then he just sort of panned over to this one of the security and suddenly the security guard had the most operatic voice will meet a god and you see things like that are funny yeah you know like my great granny she died and she was a bit of a cow you know and but I think subconsciously everyone had forgot to put on a wake for her because they just hated her so we got to this pub opposite I'm like oh shit better get some food there was no food to like shit get loads of packets of crisps so we just got loads of packets of crisps and open them out on the table about help yourselves yeah so you know stuff like that I

Starting point is 00:26:35 love it my anti-kane evil anti-evy is based on from sex and series I won't tell you a real name. I don't get in trouble, but anyway, she did come with someone in a wheelchair. And we did think, should we call social services? Because she was a real bitch. And I thought, there's no way she's not doing something very weird. But she does kidnap people. No, I'll just tell you quickly.

Starting point is 00:27:04 So I know I'm going on. No, carry on. I want to know about evil. But mainly great-grandi Alice, she loved to kidnap her. So Granny Alice used to stay at the Four Seasons, not the lovely hotel. It's like an old people's home in Breitmap. So as you can imagine, quite different to the four seasons. And anyway, she's in there and she's like, oh, and Yvonne starts kicking off with the staff.

Starting point is 00:27:31 This is ridiculous. This is shit. Oh, Yvonne, don't, don't. Says Granny Alice, I'm not having it anymore. I'm taking her. I'm having her with me. She went, anyway, she just gets. Granny Alice, she's in a nightdress, poor Granny Alice, and just, she's in a wheelchair, just wheels her out, runs off with her down the hill, down break the burial road, and then carries her up three flights of stairs and just keeps her in her flat. For how long? For how long?

Starting point is 00:27:58 Till the police came. Oh my. I mean, it's quite a heroin story, but it's funny. It's funny. It is. Granny Alice, she's just like, oh, thank you. I'm glad you came and got me. She's not fed me for days. It reminds me, I heard you on a podcast talk about the links between comedy and psychosis. Yeah, great. You'd like to pull it back of the dark. I do, sorry, sorry.

Starting point is 00:28:24 We'll move on. Let's do the dark in this failure and then we'll move on. But tell me about that, the links. Oh no, it's true. I mean, I think I'm a living embodiment of that fine line. So they say that people with psychosis, well, people with comedy, comedians connect thoughts, that are not normally connected. We're naturally rebellious, angry people who struggle to follow the rules.

Starting point is 00:28:46 You know, like, do you know the Joker? I go keep going back to him, I don't know. Yes. And he's dancing on those steps. Yes. And I thought, I've done that so many times, drunk. Yeah. You know, you're coming home from the pub and you've got your podcast on

Starting point is 00:28:57 and you're like, yes, there's a lot of madness, rebellion, psychosis, kind of connecting thoughts that don't normally connect, fast-paced. You know, you can't really sit still. I'm always up on my feet. You've got doing a million voices at once, you know, like I've just done Granny Alley for you, you know. So they're very, very similar.

Starting point is 00:29:16 And I'm very lucky because there's loads of psychosis in the family. So I've got a really good... So it's quite nice if you can harness the psychosis. Yes. That is nice, isn't it? Yeah. Okay, let's move on to your second failure. Your second failure is your improv show at the Royal Exchange Theatre when you were 20.

Starting point is 00:29:38 Yeah. What happened there? that was a disaster so I'd failed college and I thought don't worry sof pull it back I was in Bristol at the time I'd gone to live in Bristol gone back to Bristol because I'd lived there before

Starting point is 00:29:52 on my own it all went wrong I was in a really bad relationship and then he broke up with me and got someone else pregnant and I just went nuts I couldn't stop thinking about it so that I failed college I ended up calling my auntie who'd just moved to Wigan the evil one no she's a lovely one

Starting point is 00:30:08 okay but she was clearly really having a nervous breakdown because she moved to Wiggin. And she genuinely was having a bad time. She just had a breakup. Her life was shit. And she moved to Wigan and I was like, woo, I'm coming to live with you. And she was like, you can't, it's awful here.

Starting point is 00:30:24 And then I came. And I literally, in the house was a mess. It was really. I mean, my friend came in and was like, is she all right? It was bad. That's what breakups can do to you when you've got that will and psychosis gene. It was really bad.

Starting point is 00:30:40 So we both went through this breakup together. And then I thought, right, because I was having a breakup, she was having a breakup. I thought, right, okay, I just get back on the horse drama, throw myself into work. And I found this improv group in Wiggen. And I came, and they were like, yes, we've got a real actress. She's been to college.

Starting point is 00:30:59 It's really funny, you know. Anyway, we got ready for this big performance. I was a bit cocky, like, yeah, I am a real actress, such her. And then I get to the Royal Exchange, and you have to do improv. and the audience picked something for you and they pick Greek gods. I knew fuck all about them.

Starting point is 00:31:17 And I didn't have the confidence then, you know, to just be like, hey, what's a Greek god? Also, I was scared of being considered thick. That was a big fear for me until, well, probably until about five years ago. I realised actually I'm smarter than the people who call me thick because there's a class issue, isn't there? Tell me more about that.

Starting point is 00:31:36 When I went to Edinburgh Festival, on, which I'll lead on to my next failure, actually. I did my first show, and I thought, this is it, I fucking smashed it. I just started stand-up comedy. I didn't understand the rules of comedy. I thought stand-up comedy was just be a funny human. I didn't know yet to structure jokes and, you know what I mean, work on it. So I've written this, like, one-woman play.

Starting point is 00:31:57 It was really good for a one-woman play. It just shouldn't have been under stand-up. Okay. And I toured it around the country, and, you know, it went really well in these venues, but then I gave it a very bad title. I called it the novice detective and I came on stage with a magnifying glass I shook myself in the foot in many ways

Starting point is 00:32:15 but what was interesting about that despite that in a way I'm kind of proven them right actually but the reviewer said many things one of my first reviewers said she's a lot smarter than she first appears wow how the fuck do I

Starting point is 00:32:31 appear I mean obviously I did have the magnifying glass So probably, I had that. And then I met him in a bar in Edinburgh. I wasn't graceful then, actually. I went up to him, was like, you're a, what's the fuck, your fucking problem? Like that, I do me something.

Starting point is 00:32:47 It's a bit more rough and ready back then. And he had a handkerchief thing on, what are they called? A cravat. He had a fucking cravat on. No, he did not have a cravat. He had a fucking cravat. And a top hat. Oh, no, he had a top hat.

Starting point is 00:32:57 Oh my good, darling, darling, darling, darling. It was mad because it was like going, you don't get that now. It's much more diverse. But this was a very. 2014 but it was different anyway it this stupid man with the cravat on was doing my head in anyway my mate nicked his fags and we left well done but he was telling me how I needed to do comedy better and all that and then there was

Starting point is 00:33:19 another one who said distracting amount of cleavage that can be off-putting at close range you're kidding a man who said that that was a woman what she was flat-chested okay jealous yeah the show? Yes, improv. So is improv in a way just all about failure? It's the story of failure really, isn't it? Because you improv, yeah, I think I threw that in improv. It was just, do you know why? It was so mortified. I remember getting off stage and just cry in my eyes. And that's the perfectionistic drive. I could not accept that I'd failed. And I was like, you know, I was quite young at the time. I can't remember how old. I just failed at college. And then I'm doing this.

Starting point is 00:34:03 and I thought, I'll be on stage, I'll do it, and then I got it wrong, and that made me feel really scared that I couldn't do the one thing I thought I was good at, and it really affected me. My auntie just said, look, you know, you'll be looking back on this and you're laughing. I'm not, actually.

Starting point is 00:34:18 But I remember thinking, I don't know if I'll ever, you know, you just think your whole life's going to be a mess and you're a failure, and you get so, you know, especially when you're that age, everything matters so much, doesn't it? And I do look back on that now and think, gosh, how funny that you just don't allow for any failures, I think, when you're younger, or I didn't anyway.

Starting point is 00:34:36 And was there a feeling when you were tentatively stepping out into this comedy world? Did you struggle with that feeling of not belonging? Yes, but then as a comedian, I think we all go into it because we feel outsiders. And I felt like an outsider everywhere, felt really outsider. But also, that's not just a negative, it's a strength as well, isn't it? Because I've been, like you would say, I'm the thingy, you know, I've lived in loads of different worlds, and I lived in Bristol for a bit and I've lived, you know, in different families

Starting point is 00:35:06 and all these things. So you kind of never quite fit in perfectly anywhere but then also you kind of can get on with everybody and fit in everywhere. And so it's a super strength as well. The industry's weird because it is still predominantly very middle class but I also get a bit irritated with the rhetoric about class myself now.

Starting point is 00:35:27 You know, and also I think it's still a big thing and we need to talk about it, but don't let it detract away from you actually doing the work to be the best you can be. But then I do think there's still a massive problem with the London-centric nature. You know, everything's in London and they pop a few things up here. That's a bigger problem, I think, for me. You know, I think that... Well, actually, no, they're both problems, actually.

Starting point is 00:35:48 Actually, fuck it, yeah. But I think, you know, I think we just want to kind of try and develop the conversation a bit rather than getting too stuck in identity politics and actually look at it economically as well and what are we going to actually do and how do you change it rather than going like, oh, I don't know what Kienoir is, so I must be working class.

Starting point is 00:36:08 You know, that's very dull. Yes. Is that partly why you set up stories of care? Well, Stories of Care was a care experience project. I wanted to do something that was care experienced adults writing books for children that were about care experience. Because I find that, you know, a lot of care experience stories are not written and authored.

Starting point is 00:36:29 like authored and kind of led by care experienced people or at least they weren't then anywhere and a lot of charities that work with care experienced people you know they take their stories and they don't actually involve them and I just think it'd be nice if care experienced people get to be the leaders of their own stories you know and the orators of their own experience you know and creating a community as well between the younger and older generations yeah having their voice that's the one thing everyone

Starting point is 00:36:59 deserves. Your Edinburgh show is your third failure, which I feel like we've touched on. Is that the show you were talking about? Yes, I went into it a little bit. And why would you categorise it as a failure? Was it the critical response? Yeah, and also probably because I put all this expectation on. I was very intense in 2014. You do surprise. You do. me. No, I wasn't as, I laugh a lot more now. It's going out with a lovely, he's a lovely person, but he was dead intense as well.

Starting point is 00:37:38 And he was a producer. And he was like, we're going to produce this show. And I was like, all right then. And it was just quite an intense relationship, you know. And then we just worked too hard on it and it wasn't good. What was it about the novice detective? Well, it was actually quite good. It was a family show.

Starting point is 00:37:53 I got a rural touring commission, NRTF, and we toured to 7070, dates around the country rural and it was about me meeting my father and I did it through an interactive detective show. It was actually quite a good show. It just shouldn't have been under adult stand-up comedy.

Starting point is 00:38:10 But as a family comedy show it worked great and I did that around the country fabulous. Then I took it to Edinburgh I got some very bad advice from a comedy producer I bobbed it into stand-up comedy and then I got all these reviews and I'd worked so hard on it and again

Starting point is 00:38:26 I had all these ideas of what were was going to be and what I was going to do and this is it this is my moment and I look back on that girl now I think God just chill out love it's okay you have actually got ages I don't think I realise how much like you know these are part this part of the experience isn't it yeah well I also got my first script commission that year to write out alma a version of Alma he went to London and it didn't get commissioned and I was so gutted about that at the time but now I'm so glad that didn't happen because if I'd have written it then I wouldn't have had the experience the confidence the knowledge of the industry the right agent to get me executive producer credit so many things

Starting point is 00:39:08 you know and I same with Edinburgh I mean I think actually it was so part of you know each Edinburgh I learned so much but I think mainly what I learned is it is bullshit no but I really mean that you know you've you're shoved up there you spend thousands of thousands of pounds then you get told that you've got to be nominated for the Edinburgh Comedy Award and that's not something that you go up there thinking about you get told constantly you need to be rooting for that there's so many people this to do and then you know it actually makes

Starting point is 00:39:39 it was like being like in the Marines but for Comedy and I look back and I think it wasn't worth that kind of stress actually it should have been a really joyful experience going up to Edinburgh every year doing a show working on the show connecting with friends that bit was all lovely but then this other side of it you know these hungry agents and hungry and the capitalism you know it's very interesting because so many female comedians who come on

Starting point is 00:40:08 how to fail choose edinburgh as one of their failures yeah it's fucking hell yeah that's the impression that i get how much sexism is around i mean it's just life sexist isn't it yeah but i think the problem for edinburgh for me is more just that you know you've got all of us outside weirdos trying desperately to be loved and the most popular one in school and like you know you're having a conversation I'm sure people have said this to you and people are looking over going yeah yes yeah yeah looking who else is there in the room you know it's really weird and you can't relax and have a nice time it's like a fish bowl so I think for me it's more of that it's the emotional exhaustion of it and the pressure you know my

Starting point is 00:40:50 agent kept being at the time like don't go out drinking don't do this don't do that And then I thought, but you're representing some real misogynistic sober people. Do you know what I mean? I'm like, I should rather be drunk than him. Yes. Mantra for life, yeah. Yeah, thank you. I think I'm Nick that from Winston Churchill, actually, but still.

Starting point is 00:41:16 But yeah, so I think it was just the pressure. And I just look back now and think, oh, if anyone going up there, going, and I know it's changing now, but don't let yourself get all upset. You know what, the misogyny is real because I went up there and made a group of comedian friends in the new act of the years. Some of them I'm still friends with, some definitely not.

Starting point is 00:41:38 And all of them were like my mate, but then they kept making that weird digs at me. You know, they'd be like, oh, well, you've got your fucking story, you haven't you? You're lucky because your mum's a heroin addict, so you've got your story. What have we got? genuinely and I was like yes it must be exhausting being a middle class man from a good

Starting point is 00:41:57 background it must be and then they'd be sometimes like sort of hitting on me but in a weird kind of creepy kind of wanting to bring you down where so actually there was quite a lot of misogyny I've forgotten has that has that eased off no people don't fuck with you when you won BAFTAs well that's what yeah that is another mantra for life yeah Well, I just think as a woman getting a BAFTA, it's like being given a penis. It really is. Like, you're not going to be treated, you know, with all the respect, but you'll get treated like a man who works at Tesco's Wood.

Starting point is 00:42:35 And then you get another one, and you get treated like a man who works in H&M. And number three, waitros. Yeah, yeah, I think you're right, yeah. So from this Edinburgh experience, you start developing. and it has become such an extraordinary success that so many people love. I'd love to know about your writing process. Like, how do you write the scripts? Smoke too much, give yourself emphysema, cry, drunk, alone.

Starting point is 00:43:05 Then it's a full moon and you're slightly pissed and you think, Do you know what, I should be out there dancing? And you do, and then you remember, you've put yourself into a spa and everybody on the retreat can see you pissed dancing at moonlight. But then you think, fuck it, this is fine, the Joker did it. isn't psychosis I'm well I'm good so that's part of it yeah the first half is always I don't have an idea the second series was really difficult because my grandma passed away and my mum was going through a court case which ultimately I

Starting point is 00:43:39 ended up using some of those experiences similar to draw from but I didn't want to do that really I wanted to keep it separate because normally I think when you're writing the best place to write from well until this point I thought was some stuff that you've already processed so you can be reflective and then you make sure you're not indulgent and it doesn't become about you having therapy you know it has to be about the audience so I didn't want to do that but unfortunately there was no way I could write it without and my mum actually featured on a panorama documentary called patients at risk about the hospital she was in at the time she's no

Starting point is 00:44:15 longer there but she was in a hospital that was the staff were abusing patients It was a whole big thing. I'd gone digging into it further and I realised that there was this board of trustees if you're in, fuck you. There's a board of trustees that basically make all the decisions for funding. You can actually work at the hospital

Starting point is 00:44:36 that my mum was at. These are some of the most vulnerable women in the country. You can actually work at this ward with no qualifications. You only have to do six hours training online. You don't have to have a degree. in social work. You don't even have to have done one training course. There was one guy used to work in Weatherspoons and he'd got the job through his dad. And it was dealing with

Starting point is 00:45:01 people with no empathy and no training in empathy. And then also people that maybe did have empathy were got so kind of, what's the word, indoctrinated in this horrible toxic system. And also, I'm not being funny, but most of the staff members had a very low EQ, emotional intelligence. there wasn't any. I remember having to explain to the head of social work, going like, sorry, you don't seem to have empathy. I'm trying to explain basic empathy to you here, and you don't have it. Oh, that's horrible.

Starting point is 00:45:32 It was bad. But actually, that was quite helpful when I wrote the first series, because I thought, you know what, if I can do anything, I want to somehow educate empathy into the system. And they showed series one in universities for social workers across the country, which was fabulous for me. Yeah, it's quite good, isn't it? That's better than Abasta, it really is.

Starting point is 00:45:57 And then the second series, when the panorama came out and I'd had this writing block, I was going to, and then I thought, do you know what? It is political, because I think I really struggle with it just being about me. The whole point for me is that it's a wider narrative and you draw from your own experiences, not your own experiences and you draw from the, you know,

Starting point is 00:46:16 it should be the reverse. But when I found that wider narrative and realised that this was, wasn't just a weird personal experience I was going through. This was political and this was like happening to loads of people across the country and all the funding cuts and all these bankrupt local councils and the mental health services. So that was really helpful. What was the question? No, that was so, so powerfully put and the question was about your writing process, but that was so powerfully put. And actually, I know it was funny, you describing like how you

Starting point is 00:46:47 howl at the moon and then maybe get drunk and then maybe start writing. But I think there's so much fetishisation of writing routines and morning routines i mean you have it for a little bit i would but i think you're so right sorry i butted in then no but away why i just think you're so right because you get you know i uh yes i do my morning page for 25 minutes and i sort of then i have a lemon tea and sort of no you don't you cry at the dog right that's what you do yes you know i was on the kitchen floor one day crying going i can't do it i can't do i'm not anything plunk page you know that that's it can get really dark yeah she looks worried no i think you're totally i completely relates to that experience and actually when you see these kind of morning routines on instagram and people getting up at

Starting point is 00:47:29 345 and taking off their mouth tape and all of that it can feel it can feel really oppressive it can feel like you're doing life wrong yeah and that's why it's so great to hear your story with all of it's creativity some of which was formed in chaos yeah i think a lot of it's formed in chaos and then you do have to have a discipline and a structure and routine, you know, you do. Yeah. You know, because otherwise you would be fucked, wouldn't you, if you hadn't, you wouldn't have anything. You really do kind of, you know, what I'd always say is make myself do two hours a day, like, and don't try any more than that, because actually after that, you crap. And then if it's flowing, brilliant. Yeah. But if it's not, stop at two hours, that's really good. Final question to you is

Starting point is 00:48:15 this podcast is obviously all about failure. Yes. Do you feel successful? I am feeling it right now in Southford. I think I flick really between it. I never really see myself in that way but then I've actually been reminding myself recently like Sophie you're actually doing all right it doesn't come naturally what about you I have to ask same yeah I would say the same yeah yeah doesn't come naturally but it's actually something that we have to say because success isn't just career is it it's like as a human being, I think I've turned out all right, like considering my experiences. And also with

Starting point is 00:48:52 making sure that you stay open and connected and, you know, and not kind of running off with yourself and stuff. Well, I think you're absolutely fantastic and I am so grateful for the work that you have given all of us. But for now, I would really love us all to give the most monumental thank you to the incredible. Sophie Willen! Please do follow how to fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast.

Starting point is 00:49:35 Thank you so much for listening.

How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - Sophie Willan - From Foster Care to Alma’s Not Normal

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