How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - SPECIAL EPISODE! How to Fail: Daisy Edgar-Jones on being the star of Normal People, the lockdown television hit everyone is talking about

Episode Date: May 20, 2020

Ok, so I said I was done with the special lockdown episodes but, forgive me, I CHANGED MY MIND. The reason for this is that I watched Normal People and thought it was the most exceptional piece of television I've seen in...well...an absolute age, and I basically hunted down Daisy Edgar-Jones like the obsessive fan I was until she agreed to be interviewed by me.And so here it is: Daisy Edgar-Jones, who gave the performance of a lifetime as Marianne in the BBC adaptation of Sally Rooney's acclaimed novel, Normal People, joins me for the most beautiful chat about failing to go to university, feeling the need for constant validation, wanting to do things for their own artistic sake but being hamstrung by other people's approval, body image, living with anxiety (which manifests as hypochondria), feeling lost in her late teens, dealing with rejection, the weirdness of overnight fame and Connell's silver chain (in-joke there for Normal People mega-fans). We also talk allllll about Normal People: how she approached the part of Marianne, her on-and-off-screen relationship with Connell (played brilliantly by Paul Mescal), how they filmed those extraordinary, respectful sex scenes and the story behind Marianne's fringe.Daisy is 21 but speaks with the wisdom of someone three times her age. She is so open, so funny, so kind and so generous in this interview that I know it's going to be a great help to a great many people, especially as it's Mental Health Awareness Week and we need more people to talk like this. Thank you Daisy, you're insanely talented and a genuinely lovely person and I'm so grateful you replied to my Instagram DM.*I haven't taken sponsorship for any of the special lockdown episodes because it didn't feel right, but if you have enjoyed this interview or any of the others, I'd be so grateful if you'd consider donating to Samaritans. a truly incredible charity which helps people in crisis by being there, at the end of a phone line, 24/7, 365 days a year. Covid-19 has placed an unprecedented pressure on Samaritans volunteers at precisely the time that we need them the most. Any donation, however small, will help and I'd be so grateful if you felt able to make one. Here is the link to donate:https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/howtofailwithelizabethday* CORRECTION: during the course of our conversation, Daisy made an innocent mistake in referring to the condition where you effectively 'drown yourself' through drinking too much water as 'hyperhidrosis'. In fact, hyperhidrosis is a serious dermatological condition experienced by 2 million people in the UK which causes excessive sweating, caused by the sympathetic nervous system overreacting and causing bodies to go into stress overdrive. Despite 3 in 100 people in the UK having this condition, not many people talk about it for fear of shame and embarrassment. Thank you to the lovely listener who pointed out the error and who wished to raise awareness of this overlooked condition.What Daisy actually meant to say was hyponatraemia, a rare but potentially lethal over-hydration which dilutes salt levels in the blood and has similar symptoms to dehydration, such as headaches, nausea and cramp.  *If you really can't get enough How To Fail content and are looking for something to read during lockdown, there is a book! How To Fail: Everything I've Ever Learned From Things Going Wrong is out now and available to order here* How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted by Elizabeth Day, produced by Naomi Mantin and recorded, edited and mixed by Chris Sharp. We love hearing from you! To contact us, email [e-mail]* Social Media:Elizabeth... Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by card, other conditions apply. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned

from failure. So I told you a few weeks ago that I wasn't going to do any more lockdown specials until the new season of How to Fail aired in June, but I changed my mind. And the reason I changed it was that, like almost everyone else, I watched Normal People, the 12-part BBC adaptation of Sally Rooney's prize-winning novel of the same name. And just like millions of other viewers, I fell in love with an exceptional piece of television. In fact, I was so blown away by the extraordinary central performance of Daisy Edgar-Jones as Marianne that I creepily slid into her DMs to tell her so. It was a performance that managed to be both nuanced and passionate, both subtle and intense, conveying complex inner thoughts and yet making them immediately understandable to the rest of us.

Plus, the Irish accent was flawless, even more so when you learn that Edgar Jones grew up in North London. She trained with the National Youth Theatre before landing her first job, playing the recurring role of Olivia in Cold Feet. She went on to appear in several more television dramas, including Gentleman Jack, Silent Witness, and Outnumbered. But it is as Marianne that Edgar Jones has fully come into her own, with The Times describing her performance as perfect, and The Hollywood Reporter dubbing her a rising star. She is still only 21. Anyway, it's a mark of what a lovely person Edgar Jones is that she didn't block me on Instagram and instead agreed to come on the podcast. I am so thrilled to welcome her as I

truly believe she will be one of the great actresses of her generation. Talking about normal people in an interview earlier this year, Edgar Jones said, what I gained from doing this series is my understanding of the world. I think normal is so messy. It's like a big scribble. I think that's what life is like for everyone. We live in a world where everyone is constantly projecting the perfect side of themselves and we live in a world of envy. I just think normal people is a really healthy depiction of what it is to be a human being. And I think, I hope, people watch that and agree and feel that they can see themselves in it. Daisy Edgar-Jones, job done.

And welcome. Hello. Thank you so much for having me. This is crazy. I told you before, but I'm a huge fan of the podcast, so I really can't believe I'm speaking to you it's amazing you're so lovely and I'm a huge fan of yours and I just think that that quote that I read at length because there was so much good stuff in it is so relevant to the purposes of this podcast because one of the things that I'm constantly trying to do is to counteract the fact that we live in an age of curated perfection where it feels like you're only as good as your last Instagram post of freshly vegan tray baked brownies and and there's very little scope for failure and actually normal people as you say was a celebration of a beautiful kind of normality and is that partly what drew you to the role in the first place?

Yeah I mean definitely I just fell in love with Marianne and I think the reason I did really is because she is someone who is deeply flawed and deeply struggling with her sense of self and of who she is I think she really throughout the whole series is really struggling with this feeling of unworthiness and I think that's something we all feel as a young person growing up that we aren't worthy of certain things or when we're comparing ourselves to other people all the time via social media via just everyday life Marianne is I think inspirational because she is far from perfect and and the series celebrates that and by the end at least she kind of feels that she's settled but that doesn't mean that she's necessarily the most happy person or living the best life she can be but she's just okay with normalness if you know

what I mean yeah I totally know what you mean and also because she comes from this I mean not to give too much away but a dysfunctional family background and normal people's so interesting because it is sort of about privilege and what one means by privilege. Because although Marianne is from a quote unquote slightly higher class bracket than Connell, her love interest, it feels like Connell has the privilege of coming from a loving family. And there's this constant like tension between the two that just adds so much to it. And I feel like I don't have a question there I just wanted to share that yes no it's so true that you said that because I think that's something that's really interesting is that the privilege Conor has of of having a mother that cares for

him and loves him and therefore he always knows that you know whatever he does in life he'll have someone who adores him you know who's unconditionally loves him if you know what I mean and Marianne sort of doesn't have that. And I think it's a really interesting juxtaposition there. And Marianne, her latent feelings of unworthiness, they sometimes manifest themselves as being outwardly spiky, and seemingly cold towards other people. And yet, what I think is so astonishing about your performance is that I loved Marianne from the first time I met her through your eyes and even though she has these characteristics you somehow bring the warmth and humanity out of her how difficult was that to do?

That's so lovely because I think that's something that I found really interesting and I remember saying to Lenny early on in the process like who directed the series I have a tendency to sort of add too much warmth to my characters and I know that Marianne when you read her is meant to be quite spiky and sometimes quite unlikable so it was a real battle to try and tell that truth but also tell the truth of what I believed my Marianne to be, which was someone who was very deep and very vulnerable. And I think her kind of coldness is sort of a protection. And it's really interesting when you read the book, because you get both Connell's perspective of Marianne as well as her own. And I think that kind of difference of the way you view yourself, as opposed to who you actually are, or how you come across to others is quite different. And I,

I've always thought that about myself, like, I wonder if my view of myself is very different to the way people view me does that align itself and I think you know when I read Marianne's sort of chapters I always saw her as someone who was really struggling with her sense of self of someone who really didn't like herself and who was deeply sort of soft and vulnerable but then when I ever whenever I read Connell's perspective she always came across quite harshly to him. And so, you know, it was really wonderful being able to play both of those things in a scene of what you're actually saying to somebody

as opposed to what you're actually thinking. And I guess it was a kind of balance of giving certain things to the camera that you don't give to the character in the scene with you. So the audience knows what you're feeling, but the character in the room doesn't perhaps. But that's why I think it's such an amazing piece of television because when I heard that it was being adapted into 12 parts I was like as brilliant as the book is

how can they possibly make 12 parts out of it because so much of the book is interior feeling and the way you and Paul Mescal who plays Conall convey your interior thoughts to us is just astonishing I've just I don't think I've ever seen anything like it and and I just want to salute you both for that is it right that you were the last person cast in Normal People? I was the second to last Marianne that they saw because I think Paul got cast quite a wee bit before me he had a few chemistry reads with girls and then I think I came along about a month later and I was the second to last girl I think that met with him and it was a really scary day that chemistry read because I'd fallen so in

love with the part that I knew if I sort of didn't get it I'd very much struggle to get over it for those of us who aren't actors what is a chemistry read like because do you go in and are you like well I've got to be really charismatic and try and show that I really connect with this person? Yeah I mean I think it's sort of different depending on who you're auditioning with but Lenny who sort of cast it and did the first six episodes was so wonderful because when I went in usually there's sometimes there's a wee bit of preamble where they're like oh where did you come from or how are you doing today and it's always the worst bit of an audition for an actor because then you have to speak as yourself and you're so nervous and then you kind of have to launch into this scene afterwards and it's just it sort of takes away the kind of

suspension of disbelief so to speak but Lenny was wonderful I came in sort of shaking like a leaf so scared and then he just sort of shaking like a leaf, so scared. And then he just sort of said, right, let's go on with the scenes. And Paul and I read a few scenes. And I think what he was looking for is a creative chemistry whereby you're able to communicate as characters in a way that's sort of in sync with each other. And it's so important for Marion and Connell that they have this special way of communicating that is really rapid and flowing. And it's really interesting because I think a lot of the show is about miscommunication. But actually, I think those two characters, when they are properly speaking, are able to speak in a way that is so honest and raw and something I really seek for in relationships I have because it's beautiful. And so I think it was finding that rhythm, really.

It's that thing of it feels to me as if they're only able to be their truest selves with each other. And yet there are all these other almost social miscommunications that make it very difficult for them just to be with each other. Yes. I think it's that really interesting thing on the topic of inner life, of how perhaps it's more potent when you're a younger person but your inner life is sometimes and your inner voice is so loud and your sense of self doubt is so loud that it can come in the way of what's actually happening in a conversation with somebody else so I think that's sort of very true for Marion and Conor is you know Conor just all he wants to do is ask her if he can stay for the summer and she would be fine with that and surely in some sort of part of him he knows that but there's this loud voice in his head that is

full of doubt struggling with elements of sort of class and things like that that he that comes in the way of them both just stay for the summer I know I promise I will get onto your failures but I just need to I feel like I need to get out all of my questions about normal people first. How much did you chat to Sally Rooney herself before filming or even during filming? Because I know she co-wrote the script with Alice Birch. Yeah. So I met Sally for the first time at the massive read-through that we did before we started filming, which was yeah quite terrifying terrifying day because you know you've been cast but a massive part of your brain is like oh god

they're gonna realize they've made a mistake or you know you just kind of panic and Sally kind of came over and she was so lovely and she just she seemed really excited and kind of a bit overwhelmed as well because it must have been crazy for her like having sort of written these characters in her own sort of bedroom and then suddenly all these people are speaking about them in a room together it must have been so strange but she was kind of really wonderful at giving us kind of freedom with it which I think is amazing I know like if I'd written the story I think I'd have made sure I'd have been quite sort of rigid about all the details like oh no she's like she has to wear this outfit or whatnot but she collaborated with Alice obviously and Lenny and then I think gave us

the sort of freedom to then interpret it our you know the way we did and I think she's just amazing because she was sort of like I guess I'm the novelist and you guys are the filmmakers so you know you go off and do it so she came to set a few times but on the whole she was in New York writing her next novel. And I think she got the rushes every day, which must have been strange for her, but she's so lovely. I am a big fan of Sally.

And she's writing a new novel. So that's exciting. That's very exciting. And let me just ask you about your relationship with Paul Mescal, your co-star, because as we've already touched on, the connection between you two on screen is such a beautiful thing to witness and I know that you are very good friends now in real life

what's it like playing such intense characters and such fully realized characters and then resuming your own self and being friends with someone off screen? Is there a sort of strange disconnect where sometimes you have to remind yourself that you're not actually Marianne and Connell? I mean, I think what kind of helped is Paul and I's relationship is like the polar opposite to Marianne and Connell's. Like Marianne and Connell are quite, you know, serious at times. They do have a laugh together, but on the whole, they're quite deep and they speak about quite big subjects and they're quite soft. And then Paul and I are like the polar opposite I mean I'm massively flappy and like get the giggles really easily and we we're very silly together so I think

it really helped when we were filming because sometimes you were doing quite intense scenes and then you'd be able to kind of yell cut and you would just sort of be giggling and have a kind of release so our friendship is kind of it's a wonderful thing and something I'll really treasure forever and I feel so lucky to have met Paul and and you know we Paul has sort of had never done TV before and I'd only done a few little small parts here and there I'd never sort of played a lead so for us both it was a big first experience and sort of quite scary um you know because it's a huge amount of pressure we loved those characters and we loved the book and we wanted to do it justice and we were both new to it all so we didn't know if we were even able to sort of do the scenes required of us so yeah we

were very lucky we got on and we kind of helped each other out through it all and even now you know through all of this madness it's so nice to have paul because we both just really can't believe it it's just yeah crazy I mean I was going to ask you about that because not only has it been a huge hit but it's been a huge hit in lockdown so I imagine that must be quite surreal that you're suddenly really famous and people are obsessed with it to the extent that Connell's silver chain has its own instagram accounts but what's it been like experiencing that from your flat yeah that's the thing it's very hard to even register it it as me or as true if you know what i mean i mean like for example this is just crazy but it slightly feels like a dream

because i'm like it's so kind of all-encompassing when you look at your phone but then you turn it off and you're just in your bedroom and i i think you know it's it's a really strange thing to even be talking about the show whilst this whole stuff is happening because you know it just feels a bit odd to even even be talking about it but yeah I mean I think it's just very hard to even register it as the case and I I think because it's all from my bedroom it might it might feel a bit different when we're able to go out. But right now I don't feel very different. And whenever I see like stuff about Connell's Chain or stuff about like Marianne's bangs, for example,

I look at the pictures and I don't really think of them as my hair or me because I'm like, oh, that's Marianne they're talking about. So, yeah, it's very it is very surreal I must say and yeah I probably do miss my having my parents around because like yeah I can't be with them to speak about it and they're they're kind of just they can't believe it either so be nice when this all kind of lifts and I can I can see them and have a little boogie and like a little sort of hysterical scream because it is mad. Well come on to your parents but I know that one of the things that has been talked about almost to a tiring point where I'm sure you're sick of talking about it yourself but are the sex scenes in normal people and I wouldn't normally raise this were it not exceptional because when I watch those sex scenes one of the things that really struck me is that the male gaze is so often the default when we see pieces of cinema or television,

that frequently I've only ever seen a sex scene with full female nudity. And it was so refreshing. It felt like the camera gaze was really equitably distributed between the two of you and it was a really intimate in the truest sense of the word thing to watch and and I'd love you to talk a bit about how you navigated those sex scenes and made that happen yeah I mean I think that's one of the things I am most proud of of the whole series is that aspect of equality between Paul and I and is the representation of intimacy between Paul and I and is the representation of intimacy between Marion and Connell because I remember just before the show actually aired I had a few kind of nasty comments on my Instagram because obviously it was talked about a lot in the

press that there was quite a lot of raunchy scenes so to speak and I remember kind of reading that stuff and thinking it was interesting because I don't really think of of those scenes as raunchy or explicit really because I really don't think they are and so I remember sort of seeing those comments and thinking gosh am I going to get a lot of flack for doing those scenes and for having nudity but since the show has come out I have had nothing none of my friends have even sort of mentioned the strangeness of watching it and I think it's because those scenes are done so beautifully by Lenny and by Hetty who directed the second block and by sort of all the creatives I'm so proud of them and yeah we were really lucky that when we filmed them we had a wonderful intimacy coordinator called Ito O'Brien and she is just amazing I mean we really couldn't have done any of those scenes without her and I think that has to be the gold standard now that those scenes require somebody to look after you because it

probably is a stunt and not just physically but mentally because it's a vulnerable place to put yourself in and you want to feel that you have complete autonomy and control because at the end of the day you know even though you are playing a character it is your body and you want to feel that it's being handled with care and that people aren't just exploiting you and I'm so proud that that wasn't the case and so yeah Eta would kind of make sure that Paul and I would we'd always discuss kind of the boundaries and what we were both comfortable and not comfortable with and we would sort of agree touch whereby you'd say this area is fine but please stay off this area or I don't feel comfortable with this and

then we discuss exactly what the emotional beats are of the scene I mean Lenny speaks about it and I think it's very true that often when you watch tv or film when it comes to like a fight scene or a car chase or a sex scene there's a different sort of set of rules when it comes to the camera suddenly this like mad music plays and the action kind of happens and the camera is sort of swooping around them and there's billowing sheets and beautiful candlelight and it feels performative and it doesn't feel realistic to what actual intimacy is like and I think he was very keen to never feel like there was ever a change from a dialogue scene to a physical scene because at the end of the day you're still communicating something it's just without words and it's physical and there's always a purpose to those scenes for example

you know the ones with um connell marianne's first time it's all about the kind of vulnerability of marianne and her being made to feel safe by connell and i just love the idea that i love the sort of the fact that marianne asks for protection because i just have never seen that in scenes and i don't know why because you know as a young person it would have been really refreshing I think to have seen that it's okay to ask for protection because it really is and it doesn't have to take away from the sexiness of the scene or or the beauty of it so um so yeah we would just sort of discuss exactly what the narrative beats were and then depending on what shot they were using we were able to wear

modesty gear so for a large amount of it, we were fully clothed. And then if it was a wide shot, we would make sure that we were comfortable and there was as much protection as possible. And then, yeah, we were just, I guess, from action to cut, you were able to freestyle in the freedom of knowing exactly what the boundaries were and what each other were comfortable with. And then you would just sort of act the scene. It's amazing to hear you talk about it because it's like choreography. And I just I think that really shows that so much thought went into it will no one rid me of this troublesome priest This is a time of great foreboding. These words supposedly uttered by a king over 800 years ago.

These words supposedly uttered by a king over 800 years ago set in motion a chain of gruesome events and sparked cult-like devotion across the world. I'm Matt Lewis. Join us as we unwrap the enigma and get to the heart of what really happened to Thomas Beckett by subscribing to Gone Medieval from History Hit. Hi, I'm Matt Lewis, historian and host of a new chapter of Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit. Join me and world-leading experts every week as we explore the incredible real-life history that inspires the locations, the characters,

and the storylines of Assassin's Creed. Listen and follow Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts. Before we get onto your failures, final question. I said that we were going to mention your parents because I'm of the generation that watched the first Big Brother series and was totally obsessed and think that it is one of the most epoch-defining shows of our age. And your dad, Philip Edgar Jones, is one of the creators. And I wondered if he'd had any good advice for you on

like how to handle your sudden fame do you know he's been just the best because when obviously when Big Brother was sort of at the top of its game if you went in you were sort of guaranteed to lose your and I can never say this word I know it's difficult anonymity yeah and and so my dad was kind of he's always been very good at making sure that you know he'd say things like what's really interesting is that I think people around you might change but you never will you'll always be you and it might feel very strange if suddenly people assume certain things they assume they know you for example or they might assume that you think you're a leaf to them or or you you know, you might, they might assume that, as they say in Ireland, you've got notions. Yeah. So I'm very keen to never get notions. And I think he

was just always said, you know, never ever kind of believe your own hype. Just remember that you've got to kind of keep your feet on the ground and your head screwed on and never kind of get too big for your boots, which has been very useful, because I would never want to ever, ever be like that. And your mother's Northern Irish. Where's she from? Well, we've got family in Newcastle County Down and from Manor and she grew up all over Northern Ireland. But yeah, so predominantly Newcastle County Down. I grew up just outside Derry, which obviously you can tell from my accent. But if you've ever watched Derry Girls, I'm like the weird English dude in that program.

But did she help you with your accent then? Yeah, I mean, it was invaluable having her. And I also grew up with my granddad as well. He lived with me from 11 to 16 and he had a very, very strong accent. So me, my mum and granddad, we'd always kind of speak in accents or put on sort of accents of like family members just because it was fun. And so I always had the kind of particular, I guess, the R sounds in my mind and a knack for accents because my dad's Scottish as well. So I would always kind of play with their accents as I grew up. And then, yeah, I think I just have quite a good ear for it, I guess.

I just have a quite a good ear for it I guess and and it was really handy because we had a sort of deep discussion about the specifics of Marianne's accent because there's a lot of nuances in the Irish accent and from you know even though it's quite I guess quite a small country there's a huge sort of range of different accents and so making sure to get the detail right was really important and I didn't want to just kind of do a generic accent because that would have been so wrong so I think we were keen to have a kind of the sort of the hint of Sligo but for Marianne not to be quite as strong as her schoolmates because she doesn't have any and I think when you're young you sort of speak like your friends and so it was just kind of refining it and making sure it was perfect so I'm glad it went all right. I actually just couldn't believe it when I googled

you after watching and discovered that you weren't Irish. So I just did such a good job. Okay, your failures. Thank you so much for indulging my normal people chat. No worries. Lovely. And these are some of the most beautifully expressed failures I think I've ever received. So thank you for putting so much thought into them. And your first one is your failure to not

going to university or drama school why did you not go to either was it because you were working yeah so when I left school I got quite good a levels and I really thought about applying and going and I did apply to a few places and got in I'd had an agent since I was 16 and I'd obviously got my part in cold feet when I was 17 and I've got kind of little parts here and there and so I think I thought I'd give it I try and give it a year and see if I could maybe maybe get something bigger you know and it's so difficult because it's never guaranteed and I think my mum and dad were probably at first a wee bit nervous about me deciding not to go but I kind of I had

a place I was like ah you know if I don't get anything by the end of the year I can go and then sort of by the end of the year I'd got another couple of small parts but I still hadn't really got anything you know like normal people so I think I just thought I'd keep on trying and and yeah there was the odd time where I didn't get a part and I was like I talk about parts sometimes as it feels like you're dating someone sometimes when you're auditioning they ask you out and and you really think you're right for them and then they keep calling you back for dates like sometimes over four weeks and then just when you think they're gonna ask you out they they go for someone else and it's heartbreaking and there's the odd one that really is hard to get over and sometimes when I didn't get those parts which was more often than not I think I would spiral into a kind of doubt of whether I should do drama school or whether I should do university

and yeah. And was acting something that you had always wanted to do? Yeah it was I mean I think I always loved it as school but it wasn't really till I was about 15 and I I went to the National Youth Theatre and I sort of started to meet people my own age who knew stuff that I didn't about like I didn't even know what an agent was or or what drama school was or the process of what being an actor was like and it was only really when I met sort of like-minded people who sort of taught me that stuff that I ever kind of considered it as a career. people who sort of taught me that stuff that I ever kind of considered it as a career. And so when your friends were all going off to university and you were at home trying for parts but sometimes not getting them what was that like for you? I think perhaps I experienced what I think

a lot my mum would tell me that you know she experienced when she left uni which is that really difficult thing when you're in education your whole life and you're taught that if you get great a levels you know that's the ultimate goal or if you if you work hard you'll be successful and and for a lot of people it's you you know you're taught you have to go to uni that's how you work and and have a successful life but I think my mum said that when she left uni she had that feeling of you know when you're not able to get a job straight away and it's really tricky and I think I had that sort of after college because I didn't get work I auditioned I got close and I didn't get anything and I found that very anxiety making and I really struggled for a while and I think you know it's something

a lot of actors go through but I think when I feel anxious I it sort of comes out in different ways for me and and one of the ways is I kind of struggle quite a bit with hypochondria I'm a bit of a hypochondriac and I think I had a lot more free time because all my friends were away at uni sort of living their best life so to speak or so it seemed on Instagram and I was kind of thinking gosh am I missing out on life experience and so I would get quite anxious. I think so many people will relate to that particularly in I mean I know we're talking a little bit younger for you but particularly in your 20s I think it can feel so directionless because it is the first time for many of us that we've left full-time education and it's just a really difficult confusing time I think for a lot of us but tell me a bit more about

the hypochondria and and where you think that kind of came from and how it manifests itself in you it sort of comes in waves I've sort of had it for a while and I just think it's my kind of way of dealing with anxiety it comes out in a sort of need to control the idea of if I see a rash for example I'm like okay if I really overthink that and google the heck out of it then I'm controlling it in some way if I find out that it's something really sinister I've caught it before it could potentially become something worse so I would kind of get a little bit obsessive about certain things and like sometimes it would be quite funny like when I when I was 15 we're

learning about like I think in biology about water and cells and everything and I think we learned about something called hyperhidrosis I think that's what it is where which happens to certain sort of athletes if they drink too much water they're like cells drown themselves and I also remember learning that and think it was a bit interesting and then I got on the tube and I think I was going I think I may have even been coming back from an audition and it was from like somewhere in Ealing so it's probably Ealing Studios and it was like a good hour on the tube and I drank a big bottle of water and that night I fully convinced myself that I had I had hyperhidrosis and I genuinely felt that I did and I think it is just that placebo effect where if you imagine something enough you start to feel it and so I ran down to my parents and I was

like I've overdosed on water and they were like oh gosh okay do we take you to hospital and obviously when when you're faced with the idea of actually being taken to A&E you realize that you are probably being ridiculous and I was like no I'll like no gosh you poor thing you poor thing but it is actually a real thing I mean there's an actor called is it Anthony Andrews who genuinely did overdose on water so I completely and I completely relate to that constant googling as a way of exercising control and when I've done it I always keep googling until I see the thing that I want to read that is most reassuring but you said in your email to me that you had a lot of illness in your family from a young age yeah I did because my grandma was quite sick when I was in school and my mum would come back and forth from Ireland to look after her and she passed away and then my granddad

lived with us for a long time and obviously he was one of my best, best friends, but obviously, he was much older. And so he passed away when I was 16. And then my uncle Martin also passed away. So I've always had quite just, I think we all do, but I had quite a lot of experience with, I guess, mortality from a young age. And the idea of, I've sort of been back and forth to hospitals quite a bit. And yeah, I guess I have a fear of being being ill which is something that sort of comes out when I'm very anxious in fact like I think it was the day before the first day of normal people and I mean it is quite funny I can laugh about it now and I have found ways to deal with it which is really good which I think more than anything just not letting myself google stuff because I know that it's if I believe that it's a rational thought then I'll panic myself but if I make sure that I realize it isn't then it's fine the day before

because the first day of onset of anything is terrifying because you know you it's like the first day of school you just hope you're going to make friends and you hope you're able to even do the part and I I'd had a wisdom tooth problem the month before and I remember the doctor had said like are you allergic to corsodil and I was like no I don't think so and he was like well if you don't know better not risk it and then for some reason I bought myself corsodil I don't know why because I was like oh apparently it's great for wisdom tooth and I don't want that to flare up again because you know if you get ill when you're filming you really can't there's nothing you can do because it will cost a lot of money to not go to work so I was so scared about I don't

know sabotaging the whole thing by getting sick in some way and so I took some course to do and then convinced myself that I was having an allergic reaction to it and my poor boyfriend who has probably been the best thing for helping me with all that whole sort of hypochondria and that anxiety thing he sort of had to convince me that I I hadn't which I hadn't so yeah I lived through the night which was good and do you feel that I speak to a lot of people who haven't been to university and they're often incredibly successful talented people as you are and yet they still feel fraudulent in certain settings like that sense of imposter syndrome do you have that oh a hundred percent that yeah I really do and I think like I think that was something that I found very anxiety making you know when I decided

not to go is that thing of I would hate to kind of be around my peers who had gone and feel intellectually you know not superior like you know not equal to them even now I'm like gosh I can't find a coherent way of saying that maybe I get that all the time you were looking for the word inferior but I cannot tell you like earlier in this interview when I was trying to express the idea of an inner life I got all like tied up in knots about like interior something it's really tricky as well because Marianne is so clever that whenever I talk about normal people I'm like ah I have to be as intelligent as Marianne

you're extremely clever thank you and I probably loved learning so you know I love academia and I I'd have you know I really worked hard at school and I could have gone and I know that so and I guess you know you you learn things through life experience which I guess I've I've been lucky to do so I hope I don't regret not going because my friends who have gone have loved it and have made friends for life and you know have had not only sort of experience and learning but also experience you know life experience you know and going out and partying and and having fun and it kind of immediately was like work I need to do everything I can to be an actor you wrote such a sweet and somewhat heartbreaking thing to me when you were listing your failures which is that your failure to go to university or drama school has perhaps made you fail to have confidence in your own opinions and then and then you say I even

struggled to come up with a list of failures as I kept thinking they weren't good enough. Honestly, I went back and forth over these because I just wanted to make sure that, because I've loved your podcast for a long time. And I always feel very happy when I listen to it and hear people I admire sort of speak of times they've struggled because it's always made me feel better about myself. So I always really wanted to make sure I I said I did good enough failures because I I really learned from the failures I've listened to that's such a lovely thing to say and your failures are not only good enough they're particularly good ones um your second failure is your failure to accept anything good in your words I have a constant need for validation which

must be exhausting to my family. And when I read this, I cannot tell you how hard I related to it. So just tell us what form your need for validation takes. I don't know what it is. But even when something nice happens, or someone says a nice thing to me about something, my immediate sort of reaction is to overanalyze the way they've said it and completely unpick whether it's really true or not, which I think is a nightmare for my family and my friends, because when they say something, I'm like, oh, but do you actually think that or, you know, I really kind of overthink it. And I don't know really where it comes from. And it's a real problem because I never seem to be able to properly enjoy things when they're good, because

I'm always reading between the lines to try and find the bad and I really don't know where that stems from do you have siblings no it's just me that's interesting that I wonder if there's something in that because I think if you are used to spending a lot of time around adults and there isn't another child to like knock around with and to be able to compare your experience of whether you feel good enough with like maybe that makes it slightly more difficult yeah definitely and I definitely think not having siblings has has made me struggle to in confrontation or or at school whenever there was any sort of nastiness which just ultimately comes from being a teenager I would really struggle to stand up for myself because I'd never had to at home I'd never had sibling arguments or

yeah I'd never had arguments with anyone my own age so that's been something that I've I've always struggled with is sort of I guess being like Marianne being able to bat things away when I should you know again when I watched your performance as Marianne I felt god I wish I'd been like that at secondary school I wish I'd been able to stand up for myself and my weirdness her comebacks are just so succinct I just wish I could have like I'm that person I think we all do it where you get home at the end of the day and you look in the mirror and you have the pretend argument you wish you'd had yes you say to yourself in the mirror all the things you wish you'd said to the person who'd been nasty but do you think you're as you describe it you're overthinking and looking for the negative in the positive is that also where your drive comes from because for me I guess I'm constantly pushing myself to be better or to do better and so therefore that makes me

highly critical does that echo for you yeah I think so it's funny because my boyfriend's a big Man United fan and he talks about the Mourinho style of um managing oh tell me more where you wear a nice coat it's all I know about football whereby he's like such a brilliant manager for certain players because by kind of challenging them and I guess being quite harsh with them for some players can really motivate them to play better but for some players it really knocks their confidence and they don't and they thrive more from a kind of encouraging style of direction so to speak and I guess I don't know where I fall on that because I think sometimes I read certain things or somebody will yeah sometimes if I don't get a part for example

I've always been okay at dealing with that type of rejection I do feel that motivates me to sort of get the next part I think okay I didn't get that but I know I can get something else so I just have to keep going but then I think sometimes I guess when at work acting, I can be quite harsh on myself. So like a lot of the time during filming, there's a part of me who really wants to kind of be able to relax into giving a performance and just kind of go with it without any doubt of whether it's good or not. But then there'd be a large part of me who constantly in your head is going, why did you do it like that? Or go home and redo the scene to yourself in the mirror that's and you would actually do that you would yeah yeah yeah sometimes there's like reams of like footage on my mobile phone of me going home and refilming the scene

just to check I did it okay because it's very hard sometimes to know whether it is I mean I think I was really great because actually during normal people I kind of I stopped doing that so much because we were on every day so there was you stopped kind of worrying about each scene and worrying about proving yourself and Lenny and Hetty who were really wonderful in in giving us confidence in ourselves but yeah that's been something that's I've I've had to. I think what you're explaining is not so much a failure to accept anything good but an artistic ability to connect in a very meaningful way with the world and what I mean by that is that you are open to rejection and sadness as much as you can be open to happiness and success like it's

actually a meaningful life I believe is about being in tune with both and maybe that's what it is like you're wise enough to know that when something joyful happens like it probably like something sad will also happen at some point in the future I've said I've expressed that very inelegantly no do you know that's so true that's something I really realized last year is it's never always one or the other there's life I think always has to balance the universe will always balance it out so so last year for me was was an amazing year like to have had the chance to play Marianne and something like I cannot believe has happened it was incredible in that sense but I guess whenever something really great happens there's a part of my head that goes right what's gonna go wrong because ultimately that's how the universe

works it's never perfect you know that's a very Irish way of thinking I believe like that kind of belief in something bigger and like a fatalism and I totally get it when you were talking there about being rejected from auditions I was really interested in that because I think if I were a terrible actor I I would really struggle not to take those rejections personally but it feels to me like you have quite a healthy delineation and you can identify what is a work rejection from what is a dating rejection or whatever yeah well I think at school for example I remember very vividly when I was in year eight I didn't revise for my geography exam and I I got a really bad grade and I was so gutted my mom was really you know really good because she was like I think this if

this is a great thing because it's taught you that you have to work hard to to get what you want you do and and then if you do still get a bad grade at least you know you've worked hard because I was kicking myself that I hadn't bothered revising and so that's something that I sort of really took to heart and so I worked really hard for my GCSEs and I worked really hard for my A-levels because I don't think you know that stuff necessarily did come naturally I knew that I wasn't someone who could just coast through I knew I had to put the work in and it did pay off and then I think that's something that I've taken in terms of acting too that if you prepare ultimately the best you can then if you don't get it you've controlled all the elements you could control which is learning

your lines picking the right outfit making sure you turn up on time and then the bits that out that are out of your control they just ultimately are and you can't do anything about that so accepting that and kind of being able to deal with that is something I've kind of I'm able to sort of handle which I guess is good but then I guess as I said before there are some auditions that unfortunately even though a lot of the time it's when you sort of get closest to them which really is a success because if you do get to the final few girls actually you know you are good enough to play that part you know it has nothing to do with your ability it has something to do with I don't know your eyebrows yeah I know whether they are right for the character or or whether you you know they imagine the character to have blonde hair and

you have brown and and yet when you don't get those parts when you get really close to them those are the hardest I think to get over because you know you really think that you could do it and and that they're such big knocks and I've had a few of them and I did actually have quite a few of them last year before I got normal people and I got really close to something and I really thought I was going to get it and I didn't and I I was so upset that I actually did the like the thing you do when you break up with someone I actually got a breakup haircut which was my fringe oh my gosh I know which has since been like the best decision I've ever made because I genuinely think it's the only reason I've got Ariane because I think she has a fringe so it's just I mean that's definitely not

the only reason how amazing like these things happen for a reason and do you do you also sometimes do that breakup thing of stalking your ex do you look at the thing that someone else has been cast in okay yeah all the time all the time and I always look and I always go yeah they were they were right and ultimately I'm glad I didn't get that part because they were the right person for it and it wasn't for me you know but it's only afterwards that you can look back and think that the time it's really it's horrible it really is you mentioned your fringe there and I wonder how much of your self-doubt is physical because it must be quite odd if you do have self-doubt about how you look to now have lots of people hailing you as the beautiful person that you are but also a sort of style icon and wanting to emulate your haircut and how has that

been for you? That's really surreal I mean I think that you know like I said it's very hard to even compute that as me because it isn't really I don't sort of dress like Marianne that was Lorna who styled me who's just she's the style icon and I'm trying to cut my fringe in quarantine and it's it's a really interesting process my flatmate's doing a great job of it thank goodness but god so it is strange and I definitely I think that was something because obviously normal people is quite exposing that was something I did feel a bit worried about and I think the first day where I did a scene without clothes on at first I was sort of very self-conscious as you can imagine

because it is such a you know I don't even when I'm getting changed in changing rooms, I am hiding in the corner with my towel. Like, I'm not someone who has always been massively body confident. So I think actually weirdly doing normal people has been quite an empowering thing because I think I had to accept very, very early on that really there was nothing I could change about the way I looked. And that's fine and that you know all the bits I feel weird about I just have to embrace and I and I think the people I admire are always people who just really own who they are and and who you know who are unashamed about anything and I think that's something I really aspire to be because like we're all beautiful and all the oddness of the way a body looks and bodies are odd and they're all really different and I guess I think I sort of had to accept that mine was the

way it was and there was nothing I could do about that and therefore I just had to sort of forget about it and try and do the best work I could and honestly the next day the next day I was walking to Tesco's and I was like oh my gosh like I feel so sort of liberated like maybe I'll be a naturist I don't know not in Tesco I implore you what you were saying there about aspiring to be someone who is fully comfortable and owns themselves brings us on to your third and final failure which is your failure as you express it to truly do something for the sake of it rather than for it to be approved of and what do you mean by that yeah so what I kind of mean is I've just read the wonderful book Just Kids by

Patti Smith and it follows her life growing up in the 60s with her partner at the time Robert Mapplethorpe who's like this wonderful artist and photographer and so is she and I just was reading it and I was thinking gosh I'm so envious of the way they live of the way they live in a way that is just about creating art for the sake of creating art I can't imagine what Andy Warhol and that whole sort of period in the 60s would have been like if we'd have had Instagram you know because I think that I did a open uni degree for a small time while I had a bit of free time last year and I'm going to hopefully pick it back up again but we did a whole module. That's so great what's the subject? Yeah arts and humanities okay there was a chapter on Cezanne and of like

impressionist painters and I just remember being really inspired by the fact that Cezanne would come and he would paint this beautiful mountain and he would paint it every single day I just felt he was so unselfconscious there was no kind of need to paint it for anybody other than the fact that he just wanted to capture the light on that mountain day to day as it changed and I think that's something I wish I could do and I'm really trying to make myself better at that of accepting that when I do I guess a performance that I have to just do do it truthfully and try and shut off that part in my mind that is telling me that it's that it won't be good enough or that people will watch it and not like it and I think I really realized that

actually a few weeks ago before normal people came out and I started reading, you know, I saw the articles and things like that. And, and most of them were quite positive, which was lovely. But I realized that it suddenly made me incredibly self-conscious to even think about people watching and thinking about my work and talking about it and talking about me. I found that very, very strange. So, and it made me quite anxious because suddenly I was like was like gosh I'm not sure it is good enough or just all the thoughts which I feel terrible because I feel like this whole podcast I've just been like telling you that I feel I'm not good enough but I do think I don't know is I do have that element of of always feeling perhaps that you're creating something for somebody to watch it and judge it and I guess

I'd like to be freed enough to just create because I want to rather than for it to be approved of if you know what I mean oh my god it makes so much sense but I just I want to come back to it but I just want to tackle that thing about you saying I feel like I've just been saying I'm not good enough because I don't think you have been saying that I think you've been saying you're deeply sensitive which is a beautiful quality to have. But can I just ask you straight up, are you proud of your work in Normal People? You, Daisy, are you proud of it?

I am actually, which I'm so relieved about because when all those kind of articles were coming out before the Sunday that it came out, I was so worried. And on Sunday, I turned off my phone and I went upstairs and I watched the series with my because I'd watched episodes before but never in order and I watched the whole thing with my flatmates and I was so relieved because I was actually proud of what I'd done so so thankfully yes I am good I just wanted to give you the opportunity to say that and to hear yourself

saying it because you should be proud of it because it's exceptional work and how special watching it with your flatmates were they all in tears and in love with Connell I know oh my gosh yes they were my boyfriend actually he was amazing because what a tricky thing to watch but he loves the series thank goodness that's something I'm very relieved about but there was probably a moment in episode six where he was like, this is a bit weird. He was like, oh, this is weird. And we all kind of had to acknowledge

that it was a bit weird and then it was fine. Have you had lots of friends hit you up for Paul's number? Yes, I actually, I have had too many to even count. So many people asking if he's, if he's single. He's going to be, he's going to have a really interesting experience when he's coming out of isolation. Yeah, God, of course, of course. Actually, I got asked to ask you whether he was single when I told them I was doing this podcast. But I'm not going to do that, I afraid because this interview is about you but that thing

about wanting to do something for its own sake I think is so hard to do as you've rightly identified in the climate that we live in where whether we like it or not we are constantly watched and not even if you're in the public eye I mean you're just constantly watched within your own friendship groups, your own kind of peer groups. How do you handle social media? Yeah, I mean, I really sort of struggle with it, to be honest. I found Instagram to be, I guess, a friendlier place on the whole. And for a long time, I didn't have Twitter and I got it recently. And I really I kind of really realized early on that it wasn't for me. So I do go on it and I reshare the odd thing, but I never really delve too deep because I think it's really wonderful that we're able to express our opinions and share them and learn more about different viewpoints through Twitter.

But I also find that it can be quite a scary place where people can, I guess, jump on bandwagons and, and I guess, speak openly about other people without kind of even thinking that, you know, they will actually read that, you know, you can access all of the stuff that is written on there. So I think I just found that quite scary. So I mean, I think I probably won't have Twitter forever. It's I think I spend too much time on Instagram too. And I think that's something we all, we all struggle with. All of my friends, we always speak about just how we wished we didn't spend so much time that we do.

But, you know, I do go on it, I guess, a lot. I think it's like a force of habit. Your thumb just kind of automatically clicks on it and you're like, oh God, I've wasted 20 minutes looking at nothing. So yeah, I have an off and off relationship with it because I do think at the same time, social media can be a really great thing. And, you know, I'm able to kind of contact people thing so yeah I have a an off and off relationship with it because I do think at the same time social

media can be a really great thing and you know I'm able to kind of contact people that you know and I guess get in touch with you for example and I mean I'm delighted you're on Instagram that night yeah and like see what my family are doing and my friends but yeah I think it is that it's that especially when when you're a self-employed person you spend a lot of time or I definitely did before last year not being busy I mean I I had a kind of part-time job but a lot of the time I was at home and my friends were off at uni or my friends who weren't were working and and you kind of have a lot of time to spend on those apps and I think it's not very healthy because whole time you're just seeing

everybody kind of I guess living a life that you feel you should be living and I think that's something that is really interesting where I always feel like there's something I should be doing or you know I should be going out all the time or I should be eating really well and exercising all the time or I never feel like what I'm doing is right. And actually, I think that's one thing that normal people really shows that actually there is no right way or normal way to be. We're all different. And actually, everybody's looking at Instagram and feeling that sense of inadequacy.

And so managing that and being aware of that is something I really want to try and achieve. I think so many people will be so grateful that you've said that. And thank you for being really open about it. want to try and achieve. I think so many people will be so grateful that you've said that and thank you for being really open about it. I mean one of the threads of this conversation has been about how we manage anxiety and do you think you manage it better the older you get? Yes actually I think I do I think I found ways particularly particularly, I guess, with what we were talking about, about the hypochondria of not legitimizing that anxiety of not letting myself feel that it's rational, because I know it isn't. But yeah, I mean, I think it's something that comes and goes.

And I think, I guess what's really interesting, what I've learned is that it's trying to quash that feeling of, you know, you always want more than what you have you're never ever satisfied I think that's something I've realized and so of remembering that actually if I were to go back in time and look at myself now I'd be really proud of myself but yet there's probably a large part of my head that's going oh I should be doing this or I should be doing that and so trying to remember that you know to be satisfied and to count your blessings all the time, because, you know, that's really important to remember when something is good. And when you do have a down day, and you do think that you're allergic to mouthwash, and it does feel like other people are nailing it, and you're not, on a practical level, what do you

do to get out of that? Or maybe you don't get out of it, and you sit with it, and that's your way of processing it? Yeah, I think probably the latter I think it's it can be really tricky I think I guess speaking to people is quite helpful particularly with the mouthwash thing of or actually sometimes not because I guess if you speak to someone and you say it out loud you're legitimizing it as something that is really a threat to your life which it isn't it's just you thinking oh I think my tongue's a bit tingly so there's sort of different ways of kind of managing it but yeah I think I guess sort of down days happen all the time and I think it's just kind of sort of working through it and trying to seek out the positives and and sort of surround yourself with people that are kind and treat you nicely and doing the same to others oh Daisy, Daisy. Well, if you didn't have all of this

extraordinary emotional hinterland, you wouldn't be able to give the performances that you do. And I'm just so grateful that you are who you are. But just to end on a completely trivial note, I'm sure you've had lots of extremely famous people beating a path to your door and wanting to be your friend what's the most surreal experience you've had since normal people has aired yeah I mean I think that's been something that's a bit bonkers I think probably Jodie Comer she did a wee post about it and that for me was like what because I I I love Jodie Comer. I think she's incredible. And yeah, just people I really admire. It's just amazing. I mean, I saw Kourtney Kardashian watched it as well. What? Okay, that's exciting.

That's crazy that she knows now what Gaelic football is. Like, that's amazing. Just so many people like you, honestly, I couldn't believe you stop me and Kourtney Kardashian I watched it and I absolutely loved it and I love you and I'm just so thrilled to have had you on the podcast was it okay it was amazing thank you so much for having me thank you if you enjoyed this episode of how to fail with elizabeth day i would so appreciate it if you could rate review and subscribe apparently it helps other people know that we exist