How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - The F-Word Miniseries: Mo Gawdat and Elizabeth Day on Friendship

Episode Date: August 17, 2023

Welcome to The How To Fail F-Word miniseries! Three days, three guests, three different F-words.In this final episode, the tables are turned and I’m the one being interviewed on...friendships. My interviewer is non other than my dear friend and beloved How To Fail repeat guest, the wonderful Mo Gawdat. And, as ever with us, the conversation goes both ways. This was recorded for Mo’s own podcast, Slow Mo, and released on his channels last month. Enjoy.--You can find Mo's own podcast, Slo Mo, here.--How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted and produced by Elizabeth Day. To contact us, email [e-mail]--Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayHow To Fail @howtofailpodMo Gawdat @mo_gawdat Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by card. Other conditions apply. Hello and welcome to this How to Fail mini-series. Now, as you'll know if you're a regular listener, this podcast is dedicated to a greater understanding of what failure really is, what we learn from it, how we grow from it, and whether, if we choose not to be defined by our mistakes, it actually helps us become the truest versions of ourselves. Inspired by failure, I'm now bringing you the F word mini-series. Failure

is still the overarching theme, and two of these episodes have the conventional how-to-fail interview structure. But within that, we explore three different F words, feelings, friendships, and fuel. By fuel, I mean what motivates us, by the way. I'm not talking about oil or gas or, well, cheese. We'll be talking about ambition, motivation, and what drove the army sergeant's son who left school at 15 to found one of the biggest banks in the world and become a billionaire. Has money made him happy? And is his ambition a blessing or a curse? We'll also be talking to one of the

foremost experts in addiction and trauma about the importance of understanding our feelings and what can happen when we ignore them. And we'll be chatting to a How To Fail favourite about the power of friendship. Three days, three episodes, three F-words. It'll be effing great. Welcome to the How To Fail F-word mini-series. Today the tables are turned and I'm the one being interviewed on friendships. My interviewer is none other than my dear friend and beloved How To Fail repeat guest, the incredible Mo Gowdat. As ever with us, this conversation goes both ways.

This was originally recorded for Mo's own podcast, Slow Mo, and released on his channels last month. I hope you enjoy it. I am so glad you could join us. I'm your host, Mo Gawdat. This podcast is nothing more than a conversation between two good friends, sharing inspiring life stories, and perhaps some nuggets of wisdom along the way. This is your invitation to slow down with us. Welcome to Slow Mo. My guest today is the awesome Elizabeth Day. Elizabeth is a very, very dear friend and a person that has affected my life incredibly

positively. If it has not been for Elizabeth Day, you wouldn't know about me. Back in 2018, 2019, she hosted me on her incredible podcast, How to Fail, which now has 35 million downloads, isn't it? Even more. Even more. There you go. Brag, brag. And that was really the first real introduction of my concepts on long form conversations, which I think not only got me reach, but also got me thinking about the fact that maybe books or social media short clips are not the way to send my message to the world. Elizabeth is an amazing

soul who has found a way to use her vulnerability to dig deep inside and tell us about things that we all sort of feel, but we don't actually voice and surface and address. Her first book, How to Fail, is a beautiful, beautiful, vulnerable connection to herself to talk about the parts of her life where she struggled that has taught so many of us that failure is a wonderful thing. Philosophy was her experience from some of the conversations she had on the topic. And now she has a new book out, end of March, it came out, that's called Friendaholic. And when I saw that I was like oh because I count myself as a friend so I'm not really sure if we should talk about this book but Friendaholic is really a beautiful beautiful approach as always a very simple cover and a lovely lovely approach to sort of understanding that friendship is not always better when there

is more of it, that there is a lot of toxicity that comes with friends that are perhaps not the best for you in your life. Anyway, I just use that as an excuse to meet my wonderful, wonderful friend, Elizabeth Day. Mo, oh my goodness, you know how much I adore you and yes you are so kind to say that it was how to fail that gave you a platform but I promise you that you were already brilliant and wonderful and would have found your way into our consciousness on your own and you definitely didn't need me but I'm so grateful for it because it meant an enormous amount to me and my podcast at that time. And I always say that you changed my life.

Off the podcast, you have changed my life for the better. And I so value you as a dear friend. And don't worry, you've made the cut. I did. I did. I mean, we're going to talk about that. But honestly, I think there is a beauty to our friendship because you have a very, very, very dear place in my heart. I'm not ashamed to say it in front of everyone. I think everyone who's ever seen us together knows it

because there is really deep love that I would probably say, you know, most people miss the concept of love beyond romantic love. I think friends love is a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful, wonderful part of life. And we have that at a very deep level. But also our friendship has always been a positive for both of us. We always got together, even though we don't meet that often, whenever we got together, there was something positive that came out of it. Whenever we needed each other, there was always that quick connection that made things better for each of us. So I'm very grateful to have you in my life. It has been, however, very eye-opening to look at

your work with Friendaholic, because I will will admit openly I'm a friendaholic yes yeah yeah I mean uh hi my name is Mo and I am a friendaholic and and it's quite interesting so define a friendaholic first and tell and and and then let me let's see why it happens basically so many things I want to say off the back of that. So I'll just, I'll log them for later in the conversation. I will answer your question straightforwardly and say that to my mind, a friendaholic, and it's a term that I coined to express something that I didn't fully know how to verbalize. It is when someone, and by someone, I mean me, develops a codependent relationship with the concept of having a lot of friends. And what I mean by that is that I think I was investing an enormous amount of my identity

and my self-worth in the idea of having lots of other people who like me, who weren't contractually obliged to like me because they're my family. And that for me came from a fundamental lack of self-esteem. And that has its roots in my childhood and being bullied at school and not feeling that I belonged. And my corrective for that for many, many years was there is safety in numbers. I want to build my own tribe. Let me be friends with anyone who will have me. I got an adrenaline high, a buzz of connection when I felt that someone liked me. And there's one side of that that is incredibly positive, but there's another side of that which can tip into the negative, which is when you outsource

your sense of self to someone else's projection of you, or you outsource what kind of person you think you are to the idea of meeting everyone else's needs and therefore the number of friends becomes more important than the quality and I think throughout my teens and my 20s and my early 30s that's where I was going wrong it's not to say I didn't have amazing friends because I did and I still do and it's not to say that friendship isn't one of the greatest loves of my life because it absolutely is it's that I had been misunderstanding the fundamental nature of what true friendship is which is that the people who are closest to you the ones that you call at 4am when something goes terribly wrong I hadn't been investing enough time in them because I've been spreading myself too thinly. Yes, Elizabeth.

Trying to be palatable to everyone. Yes. And that's why we haven't met up enough. And, but, but just back on that, I feel we are friends on a soul level and that's such a special rare thing. And it, and it happens very infrequently in life, but I think we both recognize that in each other. And I think we both recognize that in each other and I think the liberation that that gives us goes to the heart of what I believe great friendship is it's timeless and we always think the best of each other we think of each other with generosity of spirit is there something that's not the best in you oh stop you see it's all best that's all I asked from my friends is that they think I'm amazing.

But you are. I mean, when you're saying that you're trying to take whoever will take you, that's a very big problem for you because everyone will take you. That's so kind of you. But it's the truth. Well, that's lovely of you. I don't think that's true, but I appreciate the compliment. Tell me about someone that ever said, oh, no, I don't want you's true but I appreciate the compliment about someone that ever said oh no

you don't I don't want you to be in my life you see my ex-husband well I suppose that was my decision and that's true that's true that's true that's your decision there you go there are definitely people who you know and you will experience this that the more you put yourself out there and I feel incredibly blessed to have the platform that I now do but obviously there will also be people who don't like it who who don't like the quality of my work for whatever reason and therefore think that they know me and don't want to know me more so I suppose I put people in that category but I have friends and I write about it in friendaholic I had one of my three closest friends ghosted me overnight

and I just complete, I never heard from her again. And it is a girl thing that. Do you think it is? Yeah, we fight it out. Yes. Well, I think it's, I mean, I can only speak from my own experience of it. I think part of the reason it happens is because there isn't a language around

friendship. So friendaholic is an attempt to rectify that, to give us all the words that we need to communicate this specific kind of love that isn't romantic love. It's not familial love. We've elevated those forms of love above all others for so many, many years. And friendship is fallen by the wayside. And sometimes if you don't have a language to express your love, you also don't have a language to express that you need something to end. And I think that's why, therefore, some friendships have ended in quite a dramatic way with no explanation, because many of us are conflict avoidant and want to avoid hurt at all costs. And so we end up ghosting instead of having a straightforward communication.

So there are so many layers to this. So let's take the constructive layers first. Because in that definition of family love, romantic love, as you rightly say, we have such clear definitions of them. Yes. As you rightly say, we have such clear definitions of them that even, you know, growing up when I have a very, very dear friend, I would say, oh, they're like a brother to me. So we're just comparing it to what's familiar. Right? I actually think that what's really more interesting is how I look at my, you know, my brothers and then say, sometimes say, oh, they're like friends to me.

Yes. Right? say sometimes say, oh, they're like friends to me. And the definition of that kind of love, of that kind of very deep connection, I have to say, is probably one of the most special connections in all human ability to connect. It's not defined at all. So what would make a friend qualify? Yes. I mean, the most straightforward definition is someone who you choose to have a platonic relationship with, who you're not duty bound to by bonds of family. So someone you're actively making a choice to hang out with where you don't have a sexual relationship. And that's the most straightforward definition. But you're so right that friendship as a term evokes so much and encapsulates so much and for many of us means such profound things but it's so broad as to be rendered almost meaningless

because when I talk about friendship I might have vastly different expectations of what that means in practice from you and part of the issue with friendships and when they go awry is that we've never had the conversation in the same way that we might do if we were dating there is socially expected yeah on you know date two or three you might have a conversation about your goals or where you see yourself in five years what are you looking for in this relationship? Exactly. We never do that with friends. We find it odd and cringeworthy and strange, but that's why I'm really passionate about destigmatizing the idea of that.

Because again, there are no social rituals that we can go through to proclaim our love for our friends to the outside world. Whereas with families and with romantic love, there are. There are marriages. You move in together. You might have children together. There are all these celebrations and rituals that you can take part in

that clarify what that relationship is to yourselves, but also to other people. So it's quite interesting. As I was writing Finding Love, which has been my project now for three years, I'm on version six of it. I love the way you write because it's so different from how I write. I literally scratch it all and then start again.

And I'm scratching version six now. And I don't know if I will ever, when this book comes out, it has to be right. Okay. And so if it takes a lifetime, it takes a lifetime. But I was actually differentiating very heavily between love and dating or relationships, if you want. Okay. Because love itself is a very unusual feeling, right? It's not of this world, if you want. It's not here. And I claimed that love is indifferent. If it's love to a romantic partner or love to your mother or love to your dog or love to your friend, the fabric of love itself is the same, right?

We layer on top of it other things that defines the relationship. And, you know, one of the layers in, you know, of course, in a romantic relationship, some of the layers will include romance and passion and partnerships and tenderness and so on and so forth. And one of them is friendship. So people will say, I want to date a man that will be my friend, or I want to be with a woman that will be my best friend. And I actually found that this is an interesting contradiction because of what you said, because there is a sense of freedom in friendship where I don't feel obliged to text you every day. Yes. Okay?

I don't feel obliged to show up at certain times. You could tell me I have the book launch and I say, sorry, I love you very much, but I'm not going to be able to make it. And you won't be offended. No. Right? No. Right. And so there is that very unusual fabric of that friendship thing that we so crave to the point that we want our brothers to be our friends and we want our romantic partners to be our friends. We want our co-workers to be our friends, but they don't qualify because they fall within a different category. Yes, that's so true. And for me, that's the definition of the kind

of friendship that I most value is one where there is no sense of obligation that is imposed on it by the other party. Now, I might feel obliged because I love you and I want to do everything that I can to support you as a friend, but I'm not being made to feel guilty by you if I don't reply to your text or you can't come to my book launch. And that is so precious. And I began to realize in writing Friendaholic that I didn't have enough of that kind of feeling

in some of my friendships, which I categorize probably more as acquaintanceships. And that was part of the issue is that I was lumping everything into this one very precious category. And someone that I met at dinner or in a yoga class, I was treating with the same kind of gravity as a dear friend that I'd known for sort of 20 years. And actually there should be, I think, different categories of friendship in your own head that you don't feel that you have to treat everyone the same because you can't.

I mean, time is not unlimited. That's Robert Dunbar. You mentioned his work. Yes. Right? Did you meet him? I did. Oh, I'm so jealous.

I am so jealous. He's such a wonderful, wonderful... Is he? Yeah, but you'll be interested because, of course, as you can imagine, Snapchat's community is very, very young. Yes. And some of his views are very related to real, the friendships that we know.

Yes. Not the friendships in social media. Yes. And so the questions that came up were so weird. Were they? Yeah, yeah. Because people were like, you know, he talks about proximity and how proximity affects friendships. And he talks about, you know, so many things that we value in the real world of friendship, where I can hug you at least once a year or something, right? And for the younger generation, it's not like that at all.

Fascinating. I want to come back to Robin Dunbar because I can never speak about him enough. But just on that point, when I was writing Friendaholic, I remember I was writing

a chapter about social media and the impact on friendships. And I was born in 1978, so I grew up in a world with no... What woman says that publicly in front of everyone? I'm very proud of age. Especially when you look 34, you should just add 10.

I mean, I just feel so much more myself and so empowered by my age that I'm really delighted to be in my 40s. And I'm really delighted that I grew up... I will edit this and make it 30s. Okay, perfect. But I did grow up in a time I had the privilege of not having the internet and not having a smartphone. Beautiful life. Oh my goodness.

I think it was so good for my creativity, for my imagination. I knew what it was to be bored and to have to work my way through that and be creative in solutions. And so I suppose I had a prejudice against the idea of forming, quote unquote, real friendships online. And when I started writing the chapter, I realized exactly what you've identified, that the younger generation, by and large, see much less of a difference between a friendship forged online than in real life. friendship forged online than in real life. And as I was writing the chapter, my two teenage step sons were talking about arranging a trip to go and visit their good friend in Amsterdam. Which they've never met. Yes. I said, oh, how do you know him? Oh, we don't. I mean, we play a computer game together. But they had spent so long playing this computer game with this friend in Amsterdam. They had

really got to know each other in a way that for teenage boys in real life is probably quite rare because there's all sorts of adolescent vulnerability and embarrassment about sharing feelings. And actually when you're playing a computer game, as you and Ali would know only too well, there's this beautiful opportunity to share. And to curse everything else. Yes, exactly the tribalism of hating the same thing I love it and that was a real eye-opener

for me and I was like okay well I mustn't be blinkered to the fact that the younger generation have a different viewpoint yeah but so that takes us back to the definition of where is the line? What makes a good friend? Well, for me, and this is something that I would encourage all of your listeners and viewers to do, is to work out their own metric of friendship, because it will be different for every single person. And every single friendship is unique and complex and nuanced. And every single friendship is unique and complex and nuanced. And for me, the most important metric is not regular phone calls.

I don't need to meet you for dinner once a week. We don't ever need to plan a holiday together. If we do all those things, lovely. The most important thing for me is generosity of spirit. So that thing that we were speaking about right at the beginning, that sense that you and I will always be thinking open-heartedly of each other we'll be thinking the best of each other that's our starting point and it means that there is no misplaced obligation or guilt and that we can leave those things at the door and when we do see each other we can pick up instantaneously from where we left off and that at the door. And when we do see each other, we can pick up instantaneously

from where we left off. And that's the beauty of it. I feel I have such a deep connection with you. And the last time I saw you was in October. But that's completely fine with me. Absolutely irrelevant, yeah. And I'm not someone who needs geographical proximity. It's so lovely to see you. But I feel that we can hit relational depth very quickly because of who we are and that mindset and that won't be the same for everyone for some people it will be quality time and that's also wonderful and amazing and you do you and and that's what you should approach your friendships with saying this is the thing that's important to

me can are you equipped to give that to me because if you are I think we could be great friends and if you're not I totally get it life is busy and maybe our true friendships our deeper friendships will lie elsewhere but I'd love to be an acquaintance that sounds very clinical and obviously I'm not suggesting that you say that to every single person you meet in the street. But if you think like that, I think it's very helpful because you're also thinking about what you have capacity, emotional capacity, and physical capacity to offer someone else when you are saying, will you be my friend? So it seems to me that this freedom of obligation

is a recurring theme. Yes. There is a generosity of spirit, as you said. Yes. But there's also a generosity of time and offers, I think. If ever a dear friend will need me, I'll be there. Definitely. But then there isn't that feeling of, I can get something out of this.

And I think that when you were talking, it's just so clear in my mind that my dearest, dearest friends, I don't want anything from them. I have nothing that I need in my life that they specifically can offer, which is quite interesting. That's fascinating. Yeah, say more about that. Yeah, I mean, when you're talking and I'm thinking of the ones that I hold very dear, they're probably the ones I meet less for sure. But every time we meet, the quality of the connection, even if it's just two minutes, is wonderful. It's like I love this person. Right. And I think, interestingly, there is nothing I need from them. So if you were the romantic partner and the sex is not going great, you're

struggling now. Like, so what do I do now? Okay. If you're with a friend and there isn't an interesting topic today, you're just going to sit down and talk about something in the past or just sit in silence. There is no, I don't wake up in the morning and I say, I need this from Elizabeth. I just love Elizabeth unconditionally. That's so interesting. And I think you're right that we probably have socially conditioned expectations of our romantic partner and our family relations. Totally.

They should behave this way and not that way. Yes. And why haven't they unloaded the dishwasher? Very rarely do we think that of friends unless we're living with them in a housemate situation. But that doesn't make them friends anymore. Exactly. Yeah. Maybe it's... You're upset with the housemate, not with the friend. Yes. Very interesting. And I think maybe another way of saying generosity of spirit then

is acceptance. So the thing that I get from you, the thing that I get from my best friend in the world, Emma, who is an extraordinary person. She's also a psychotherapist, which is an amazing combination. Why do I not know Emma? I actually, you would be obsessed with Emma. I don't know why you'd, it's because you didn't come to my book launch.

I don't know, I'm going to make that happen. I'm going to make that happen. She's wonderful. It's an amazing combination to have in a best friend. Someone who loves you unconditionally, but is professionally equipped to call you on your dysfunction. That's also very interesting. Yeah.

We love our friends to tell us what's wrong with us. We hate our romantic partners, our family members to tell us anything at all. Well, I think with with a true friend and I deliberately say a true friend rather than a good friend because I find the language of good and bad quite moralizing but with a true friend because if they will start from a position of love of acceptance and so if they have to deliver an uncomfortable message saying I didn't agree with this thing that you did or have have you thought about this? They will always lead with love. And it makes it so much easier to

digest because you know that they want the best for you. And with Emma, she has taught me so much about loving myself because she loves me as I truly am. And I feel with her that she has genuinely known me as I truly am before I knew myself. And that's a beautiful place to be in. There's such safety in that. Yeah. So what about those who are not Emma's? I mean, I say that because I have to say, because of my love for you, and because I know how wonderful and kind and generous you are, when I read this, I was like, that's it. That's what you needed. You let so many people in your life, okay?

And just with your platform, you get to meet so many people that want to come close. And should I say this in public? You're fragile. You're delicate. You're not easily offended, but you don't want that negativity in your life. Yes, you're totally right. And so in Friendaholic, you start to say not everyone qualifies. Yes. you say what I actually used to, my publishers would really go crazy when I wrote that. You know,

I have that practice of looking every three months at people that I spent more than a week with, whether in a week or an hour a day or, you know, seven days scattered or whatever. And I will assess every one of them if I want them in my life or not. Really? Yeah, yeah. I never knew that about you. Oh, yeah. Sorry, every three months, did you say? Yeah. So you do a kind of friendship audit? A hundred percent. Wow, that's so enlightened.

Not just friendships. I mean, friendships and, you know, acquaintances and businesses and everything, right? Even family members and romantic relationships. Yeah. Right? And to me, it's, of course, done with love. But there has been many, many, many, countless times where I would sit in front of someone and look at them with love and say, you're a wonderful person, but I don't think I can dedicate the time. Or I don't think we're a good match. Almost like a breakup. Think about it it. Would love saying, I'm always going to be there when you need me,

but I can't afford the hour a day or two hours a day or the expectation that we'll meet every weekend and so on and so forth. And I saw that you're starting to talk about that very strongly in Workaholic. I'm also a workaholic. I know. A fragile workaholic. You're a workaholic with a very, very interesting twist, actually. I'm a missionaholic, let's say that.

I think that's really true. I think you will do whatever it takes to follow your passion, to follow what you stand for. I think so. Thank you for saying that. And then work is part of it. Yes. Yeah.

So go back. Going back. So first of all, that's so enlightened of you. I wish I'd interviewed you for Friend that. And then work is part of it. Yes. Yeah. So go back. Going back. So first of all, that's so enlightened of you. I wish I'd interviewed you for Friendaholic now, because that's so... Oh, yes. That would have been brilliant. Extra material. I'll do paperback.

Did you interview Emma? Yes. Uh-huh. There's a whole chapter about Emma. There's a whole chapter. That's so enlightened. And now is my chance to talk about Robinin dunbar briefly so robin dunbar is a a hero of mine i've never met him he's the og of friendship studies he's a professor of

evolutionary psychology at oxford university i can't speak i'm so excited when i talk about him and he coined very famously dunbar's number which is, which is the amount of human connections a human brain can cope with, where you will know someone's name, a salient fact about their life. And he says it's 150. And that's the number of people you might invite to a big wedding. It's the size of an average Christmas card list. It's also the size of an average medieval village. He then finessed this theory and came up with Dunbar's layers, which is about layers of friendship. So in the innermost layer, Dunbar says you can have up to five key relationships. Now, if you fall in love or you get married or you settle down with someone or you have children, that will generally cost you two of those other relationships,

so two of those friendships. The reason being that to sustain friendships at that level requires time. Yeah, energy. Energy, time, thinking about. And we simply cannot do that for every single person in our life. And that doesn't mean that other people that you love, like, have a connection with can't be in your life. But they exist in a different layer. And when I read this theory, I found it so unbelievably helpful, because suddenly it felt like the pressure's off. I was like, if I am doing friendship right, it is not a question of being there for every single person who I like, who

crosses my path in the same way. It's a question of discernment. So that was very helpful. And I think when people hear that, it also opens up the opportunity for you to have a serious look at yourself as you do every three months and to see how you're spending your time. Because very often, if you haven't done this exercise, the people you'll be spending time with are the people who are demanding it or making you feel guilty for not giving it to them. And that for me is not inner circle friendship. That is something else. And there might be a place for those people in my life, but I need to pay more careful attention to energetically how that leaves me feeling, attention to energetically how that leaves me feeling because it probably leaves them feeling like that too. And that's what I say when people ask about toxicity and friendship. I always say,

pay attention to your energy. How does it feel after you've had an interaction with that person? Do you feel drained or do you feel uplifted? And what can you do about that? That's exactly the key factor, actually. And it might not be their fault. And maybe they might be going through something in their particular life that requires you to be there more over a finite period of time. But if it's happening again and again and again permanently, and there's an expectation that you permanently feel unable to meet in some way, no matter how much you give, then that probably isn't good for your mental health. And there's been a very interesting study done on ambivalent friendships by the

University of Utah. So ambivalent friends are the people that you meet up with and you never know what you're going to get. Sometimes they love on you. And sometimes they're capable of great acts of kindness and generosity. And other times they're incredibly passive aggressive and undermining and they'll say horrible things to you. And the University of Utah equipped people with blood pressure monitors for a period of weeks. OK, I need one of those. Yeah, we all do. And they followed these people. And it was very interesting. If these participants had interactions with people they loved, great for their blood pressure, no effect. If they had an interaction with someone they actively disliked, they actively hated, also fine for their blood pressure. Interesting.

If they had an interaction where they didn't know what they were going to get, it caused blood pressure spikes to such an extent that future studies found it negatively affects your DNA. Oh my gosh. So ambivalent friends are actually bad for your health. And the reason is, is because you're constantly trying to shapeshift. You don't know what you're going to get. There's uncertainty there. Whereas if you interact with someone you know you dislike, there isn't the same level of uncertainty. You don't need to change yourself as much. And I found that so interesting as well. It's so eye-opening. So the idea of I can deal with someone I don't like, I'm not going to call them a friend. Yes.

But I cannot deal with someone that I'm not sure what they are, sort of. Exactly. Exactly. That's so interesting. I need one of those blood pressure monitors. There you go. And then, you know, I can log in a little camera and then I just log in the person I'm with. Yes. Peyton, it's happening.

We're finally being recognized for being very online. It's about damn time. I mean, it's hard work being this opinionated. And correct. You're such a Leo. All the time. So if you're looking for a home for your worst opinions. If you're a hater first and a lover of pop culture second.

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and sparked cult-like devotion across the world. I'm Matt Lewis. Join us as we unwrap the enigma and get to the heart of what really happened to Thomas Beckett by subscribing to Gone Medieval from History Hit. But this is really interesting because, once again, we rarely ever stop to review those things. I recall, you know, you said it's a feeling of being drained. And I know a friend, I mean, I still call him a friend, but not in the inner circle.

Yes. Who, for some reason, I always felt drained after we spent time together. Yeah. And wonderful human being, like literally motivated by God, loves his family, wonderful, wonderful person. And in my three-monthly review, I sat down and I just was asking myself why. And it was so interesting because when I sat with that person, they were constantly talking about what it is that they did that makes them a good person.

What it is that they did that makes them successful. What it is that they did that makes them smart. They are sort of almost trying to prove to me that their ego, their picture of themselves is true. Yes. And I had the most interesting conversation. I had coffee. We chatted. You know, he spent around 25 minutes trying to prove he's amazing.

And then I said, OK, so I want to tell you something. I think we shouldn't be spending so much time together anymore. And he was like, what do you mean you're traveling? I was like, no, but I find that your attention to serving your ego in my presence is draining me. You said this to him face to face? Face to face. And what was the response? The first thing is he said, oh my God, I didn't know that I was doing this.

The second is he said, would you give me another chance? Wow. And believe it or not, my answer was work on it and then we see. But I'm not going to give you another chance now. Okay, that's amazing. Were you scared doing that? Of course. Okay.

But you see that the thing, Elizabeth, is that love trumps everything. Yes. If you do it with, I Elizabeth, is that love trumps everything. Yes. If you do it with... I totally agree. I really do. I think he's an amazing human being. But if I find myself a friend with a football fan, I despise football. I'm sorry I'm saying that in public, right? But a football fan would want to spend half of their time playing or watching football. I like cars. I want a car fan where we can either talk about cars or restore them together, right?

Wonderful match does very well. And so does that mean that football fans are horrible people? No. Great analogy. This is part of the reason I love you. You are so brilliant at explaining complex philosophical ideas with the best, most meaningful analogy that suddenly unlocks something in my head. Just because you're so kind to me.

No, it's true. I'm going to blush on camera. Don't do that in front of my... Do you know how often I quote the Becky Brain? Becky Brain is the answer to life, yeah. And actually, I mean, Becky Brain has a part to play here as well. Absolutely. Because in the past, when I thought about having that kind of interaction with a friend, my Becky Brain, my anxious narrative thoughts would be saying, well, you'll end up all alone. No one will like you. Who do you think you are that you can have this opinion about a friend of yours?

Yeah. And my Becky Brain would be telling me all these things. And I still have that Becky brain. I still have that fear that I'm going to end up all alone. And partly because I don't have my own children and it's rooted in a sort of existential fear. But I've got so much better because of you at being able to say, Becky, what's your evidence for that?

Because if you don't have any objective evidence, I'd really appreciate it if you don't have any objective evidence I'd really appreciate it if you could give me a positive thought but it's so interesting you say about leading with love because I could not agree more so over the pandemic I broke up with a friend and it's the first time I've actually done that and been able to put it into words And I write about it in Friendaholic, it's a longer story, but we had just arrived at very different points in our lives where there was a misunderstanding of where we each were. And to her endless credit, she called me on it and she said, I feel there's a distance between us. it and she said I feel there's a distance between us what's going on and that was very brave of her and I replied saying I love you and I think nothing but the best of you and I want nothing

but the best for you but I do feel we're in different points in our life and I'm going through some things right now and I let you go with love and there was something about that that enabled us both to show up as ourselves and she again to her endless credit really received that very well and if anything even though that friendship is no longer an active part in my life in the way that it once was if anything we're closer because we know who we really are. We've been honest. A hundred percent. I mean, I know your love life and Justin, how wonderful he's been in your life. But I know before that, that you had challenging stories. To put it mildly. Yeah. I have challenging stories every other month, really, every three, four months.

And, you know, my hope spikes through the roof and then... But what I've learned is that a loving breakup prevents a lot of pain. Definitely. Right. And of course, the earlier the loving breakup happens, the less the pain. It's quite an interesting analogy, again, if you think about it, because we are extremely meticulous about who do we let in our life. And we have our antennas up, and the cycle is actually not dissimilar. You meet a new person, you're so into them, everything about them is beautiful. Okay. And then you get closer and closer, and then you start to realize, I would say about myself, I never had a bad person in my life.

It just wasn't the match, right? Yes. And you start to realize there is a mismatch, either in personality or in circumstance or in stage of life and so on. And now I mostly break up on the first date. Honestly, in a very loving way, or on the second date. Yeah. Okay.

And rarely ever go into a relationship at all. And I think we don't do that with friendships. No. You're out with two friends, or, you know, not from the very inner circle, but two friends. And then they introduce you to another friend friend and then you exchange WhatsApp's numbers and voila now we have an obligation to go have another coffee and chat about things and we don't stop to think about it. Exactly there's a chapter that I wrote in Friendaholic about friendship contracts and it was inspired by now I'm going to lose you slightly, but it was inspired by The Real Housewives of Atlanta.

You lost me completely. There is an iconic scene in that reality TV programme where... How many Real Housewives exist in the world? Not enough. You know there's A Real Housewives of Dubai now? Oh, I would hate to watch that. I don't think you would, Mo. I think you have a perception

of what those shows are that is not grounded in the reality, which is the endless fascination that we both have for human interaction. Elizabeth, you're my dear, lovely friend. Let's not go there. You can have your cars and I'll have my real housewives, okay? These are our passions that there will be no overlap. Elizabeth? Some real housewives have great cars. Anyway. Okay, can we just please not bring this up?

Okay, so you were inspired. But I was inspired because there was a scene in that where one castmate, Cynthia Bailey, made her then best friend. You even know her name? Nini Leakes, yes. Oh, my God. She made her sign a friendship contract because there had been so much misunderstanding between them.

And it was tongue-in-cheek, but she made Nini sign it. And it made me think, do you know what? That's a great idea. I'm not suggesting that everyone goes out and prints out a contract in 12-point Times New Roman, but I think it's a good idea to think about what might be on that contract when and what might be on your friendship cv what do you have to offer as a friend being really honest with yourself and very realistic about how much you already have in

your diary and what commitments you already have to other people what do you have to offer as a friend and what are you looking for in a friendship? So my friendship CV might say, I don't have a lot of time to offer, but I love a voice note. And when I see you, I promise that we'll hit relational depth very quickly. I don't need a new best friend, I've already got one of those. And contract might say I don't expect anything of you other than to think well of me for that to be your starting point and um what else like cats that's not even on there because I mean I think that would be the only thing on my contract but it's actually a good idea to imagine what that might be because we need to have an understanding of how we show up and what kind of friendship we need and have space for in our lives.

This is brilliant. It's brilliant first and foremost because we get to think about it, even if we don't sign it with others. Exactly. Right. If you know what it is that you have in your friendship contract, you can spot the anomalies when they show up and say, no, that's not part of my friendship contract. Exactly. Exactly. And then you feel less guilt about potentially leading with love and drawing a friendship to reclose because it's gone against your friendship contract. And by the way, when we talk about boundaries, it can sound very clinical, especially in this context.

But I also think that there are ways of instituting non-verbal boundaries where you don't need to explain absolutely everything. There are ways of having verbal boundaries where we express our feelings with love. And there are also ways in which we can have porous boundaries in that we redirect our energy. So we concentrate on the good thing that person is offering and we take our energy away from the negative. And just as a mental exercise, I found that very helpful with ambivalent friends who I do love, but I have to categorize them in that way. And I know that sometimes if I give too much of my energy, it will make me feel bad about myself. But if I concentrate on the good things that they bring, that's really helped. It's like

tending your flowerbed of friendship. When you're describing it, of course, my math brain is going into... Yes, tell me. No, no, it's really interesting. Give me a mathematical formula. Because, you know, when you really think about it, you have a limited pool of resources, of emotional resources, of time, right? Of a number of sentences you can say every day, of a number of texts you can send every day, of a number of texts you can send every day, right?

And again, in comparison to romantic. So family relationships are imposed on you. You can't do anything with that, right? And most of them are not in category A. You know, it's not very common for someone to say, oh my God, my mom is my favorite person on the planet. It happens. Isn't that interesting?

You're right. But all of the movies and all of the social conditioning would have you believe that that's the planet. It happens. Isn't that interesting? You're right. But all of the movies and all of the social conditioning would have you believe that that's the norm. Yeah. Don't even get me started. I mean, the amount of social conditioning that we go through, that sometimes defines a lifetime. Yes. Okay. One of my very common conversations with someone, especially a woman in her 30s, if they come to me with questions, is reconcile and readjust your relationship with your parents because you're a fully grown woman. We normally start with a relationship that is, I'm the little girl, I'm the little boy,

and they're my parents. As you know, the cycle of life, eventually it flips. They are the kids and you take care of them, right? And that cycle literally goes like a bell shape. So there is a peak of the relationship where now they are the kids, they're deteriorating and you're growing. And I think the reality is that we never stop to revisit conditioning, especially conditioning that's been put in our heads too early. But when you think about the mathematics of it, the amount of meticulous analysis we put in a romantic partner is usually because we know there is only one of those.

Yes. Right? Now, when you spoke about Dunbar numbers and the idea that we probably, most of us, have two or three very deep friends and the rest are layer two, if you want. Two or three is not very far from one. I think that the problem is that if we don't define those three and invest deeply in them, everyone is just in a soup of friendships. And of course, my mass brain is now saying, okay, so if I have 10 units of investment, okay, and I'm going to give four of those to a romantic partner, or if ever I have one, and then I'm going to give three to my layer one friends, and then the rest is for everyone else,

how much from a calculated point of view should be spent with each of those? That's such a good way of looking at it. I almost want you to go away and come up with a mathematical formula for friendship. It's clear in my head now, but you can put it in an equation. But I see it as those blocks. You're completely right. I mean, we do this in business, right? You and I will say, okay, I'm going to put four hours of my week in slow-mo and then 10 hours in other podcasts that spread my message and then eight hours writing. This is how we do it, right? We set our priorities and say, these are the activities we're going to invest in. We should do the same

with people. So can I ask you a very un-mathematical question, which I know you'll have a good answer to. What do you do with guilt? Where do you think guilt comes from? So the guilt that I struggle against every single day, that I'm not doing this or spending enough time with X, or I should call that person because Y, where does that come from and how do we deal with it? Why do you do that? I'm going to say that on your podcast. I find that love trumps everything. Yeah. Okay. So mistreating someone would make me feel guilty, whether I meant it or I didn't.

Okay. But if I act with love and do the best that I can, I think guilt is a stupid feeling, honestly. Right? Yeah. If I look at my life and I say, look, we talk about this openly. I don't know if I should talk about it in front of a million people. But the challenge with my life is I can't have a regular relationship. My life is very, very complicated. There are so many traditional, I mean, relationships. Why?

Because from a time point of view, from a mind share point of view, I'm 80% married to my mission. Okay. And so guilt would happen if I show up in front of someone and say, okay, you know what? And it did happen. And I apologize in my life before where I said, I want to make this traditional. I want to move into that kind of mode and so on and then fail, right? Because then I set the wrong expectation beyond my capability and didn't deliver on it. Yes. But if I'm forward upfront and I say, hey, look, I'm not an accountant who will bring a watermelon and a bottle of milk home every evening. This is not my life at all. Is that something you're interested to explore?

Then there is really zero guilt involved. Guilt comes from I haven't tried my best or I broke my promise. And that's where the idea of recalibrating relationships comes from. So that, when you said women in their 30s and the advice that you give them, so sort of having a conversation with the relationship or the friendship that is provoking most guilt in you, almost having a straightforward conversation and saying, I'm really sorry, I'm not good at phone calls. That's my clear answer. So I have a very clear answer. Whether you text me on Instagram and I don't know you. Yes. Or you're my girlfriend. Yeah. Which simply

says, I hate phone calls. So do I. Yeah. I'm so happy that we both hate phone calls. It's very impersonal. Yes. I don't know when the person will stop talking. So I start talking, you know, I don't know when the person will stop talking so I start talking. But also I don't know how to end them. How do you end them? And that's why I end them in a very awkward way. They take so much time. And so literally around sentence three in a phone call,

I'm saying, okay, so it's good. I'm trying to end it already around 14 seconds in, right? And if a person has an expectation from you, they become very, very irritated by my lack of ability to sit there and chit-chat for an hour and a half. And I think what we're both also saying is that it is okay for that expectation for someone to have, that someone has of you to change. It's okay for you to change it. Even if you've behaved this way for 20 years of your life, but you've had this realization that you don't like it or you can't continue. Exactly, revisiting. So when you revisit, and you talk about this very, very well in the book, there is revisiting of ones and zeros. Like I want this person in my life or I don't want this person in my life. But I think a more intricate approach is to say, I would have this person in my life at those

conditions, which are not the current conditions. Can we have a conversation? So just like sometimes I would go to someone and say, I feel drained when I'm in your conversation. I go to others and say, hey, by the way, I love you as a friend, but just expect that we will meet once every two months and not any more frequently than that. Or just expect that if I'm filming, I'm not going to answer your phone calls. It's as simple as that. I don't answer anyone's phone calls, by the way. At least then they think you're filming. No, but that's the truth. I don't even answer business phone calls. I tell them, text me, right?

And then I don't feel guilty about it because I'm doing the best that I can. You know what I hate? A briefing call. When someone books you to do something for work and you're committed and you'll do it and you know that you'll turn up and you'll do a good job. And then they're like, actually, can we also have a half hour briefing call? Why? Put it in an email. I'll do it and you know that you'll turn up and you'll do a good job and then they're like actually can we also have a half hour briefing call why put it in an email I'll read it or won't or wait I actually so you know what I do with briefing calls what I show up and connect deeply to those humans as humans I don't even should we say that in public because I have a

briefing call tomorrow whenever you say should we say this I have a briefing call tomorrow. Whenever you say, should we say this, I always think yes. No, but I actually use, I enjoy connecting with the people that I'm going to meet in that work engagement more than I am connecting with the content, which you don't get on an email, I think. But going back, I mean, so the idea here is by telling ourselves not only to revisit relationships that are draining, but also, as you were just mentioning, to actually look at relationships as they're starting and say, do I want this in my life? I think that's the tricky one. You mentioned Justin, my husband there. I love Justin. I know, and he loves you.

And he's so, he knows exactly who to let into his life and who not to. Totally. Yeah. And as a result, he hardly has any friends. But it was something that- Good for you. Yes. Well, it was great for me.

It depends on you now. Yes. It was something that caused me a great deal of amusement. And I was so, I just couldn't understand it. When I was writing this book, I kept asking, I'm like, why? Why don't you have? Exactly that. Right.

My perception of it is very much he's self-sufficient and he's done a lot He set up businesses. He had three kids. All of that was taking up his time and friendship took a backseat. And then when he got divorced and he was ready to date again, then dating and finding a meaningful romantic relationship, that also took priority along with co-parenting his three kids and now running his successful business. And so friendship again took a back seat. But the knock-on effect of that, and he does, he has one really good friend, Paul, who I always like to give a shout-out to, because I worry that otherwise Paul might listen to a podcast one day and think, hang on a second, I'm Justin's friend.

And he does have a handful. You're handing over a lot of power to Paul here. I know, he's such a lovely man, so he would never abuse it. But the knock-on effect of that is that Justin he's very aware of those blocks of time that you mentioned and he's very aware of where is worthy of investing them and he hasn't set an expectation that is unrealistic for people coming into his life. So he won't be the one who gives out his phone number at the drop of a hat. He is not good at replying to texts if he doesn't have the time to do so. And he's very realistic about what

he does and doesn't have to offer. And I learned so much from his way of being. I suck at that. You suck at which bit? I have, as we speak, I will probably have, let's check, I have 97 unopened WhatsApp chats. Okay. I probably will have as many on Instagram and as many on email and as many on SMS and as many on LinkedIn because everyone has my contacts. And sadly, yeah, sadly, I really don't know how to explain that to people, but I treat WhatsApp as email. Yeah. And I, we're very similar in that respect because if I connect with someone and I get on with you and, and you ask for a number, I feel dishonest not giving it to you. So I will give you my number and then the chances are you might text me and I will feel almost instantaneously overwhelmed

and like I can't get back to you, which is a much worse way of being. But you see, the idea is that the expectation is you're not going to abuse the number. Yes. And if you do, I would be able, when I have the time to say openly, you know, this is not what I expect. Yes. The problem is that when the flood comes in, which goes back to the whole Justin, Justinology, which is… My next book.

Which is to say, I'm not going to meet that expectation so I'm not going to set it up from the beginning yeah I suck at that I suck at that too and and there are many people in those 97 by the way that are people I love yes and I would love to respond to a hundred percent yeah and actually one of the things that comes up again and again when I do book events for friendaholic is that sense of, oh, I don't want to be your friend. Like, I'd like to be your friend, but I know you don't want any more friends. And that's absolutely not the case.

I love friendship and I love connection and I've got Only Connect tattooed on my wrist. That's how important it is to me. Do you? Yes. It's my mantra for life, Only Connect. Why did you take that before we met? It was around the time that we met. I'm trying to think, it was right before we met,

because it was when How to Fail the book came out, which was March 2019, and your episode was April 2019. And the reason I got a tattoo was because that was the first book of mine that was a Sunday Times bestseller. I wanted to remember that moment, but I also wanted to remember that the guiding principle of my life is connecting with others. It's an E.M. Forster quote. And that also connection, I also wanted to remind myself, even if I get bad reviews, and obviously I always do, along with the good ones, I'm still connecting. There's something still very important there that I prompted a reaction and an investment of emotion.

It doesn't have to be a positive connection. Yes. A connection is a connection. Yes. So I love connection and I never want to live in a world without it. And when I'm connecting with you, I promise you it's completely genuine and real and authentic it's just that I'm quite an introvert behind closed doors I know isn't it but it's like I I value a one-on-one connection and I also need time to kind of replenish my

energies and I think those things why do we think those careers, introverts? Like, it's just... I know. You and I, again, from the outside, we appear to be the ultimate extroverts. Like, you know, I see you at a party and you're hugging everyone and laughing and loud and, you know, everything.

I'm not loud, am I? You're like, you know... Yes, living and heard. Yes, heard, yes. Yeah, and then for people to not even imagine that you're an introvert or that I'm an introvert. I know. Yeah. Well, I've thought a lot about this. Which, by the way, is a very important part of friendship. It is. Yeah. It's to tell them upfront, look, I love you very much, but I don't want to see you. Yes. And there are some people who get that energy from being around lots of others. And although I might like that experience in the moment,

I know that I will need to replenish my energy afterwards and have some time at home with my cat and my jasmine tea. I just know that about myself. I think that introversion in some way, and extroversion actually, is connected with the quest for understanding. I sort of want to be understood and I want to understand others. And I suppose what you and I do is we seek to replicate the feeling of this one-on-one conversation, which is so profound and deep and engaged and loving and open. We want to replicate that for lots and lots of people. But in doing that, what I believe is that we're having a series of one-on-one conversations. That's what they do, yeah. Yeah. So it's almost like at an event where I might be on stage talking about friendship or failure, or at a party where I'm launching a book, I feel that I'm getting those one-on-one connections at scale.

Correct. It's different from just flitting about and not actually having that sense of linkedness. Yeah, I'm with you 100%. You see the Susan Cain that wrote Quiet. Oh, Quiet, yes. Amazing book. Incredible book. And I think the biggest insight about that, which was that introverts are not the shy ones. They are the more attuned ones. So we sense and feel everything around us. We can sense the smile of someone approaching or that they're troubled and so on. And so because of that, to create so many deep connections,

you end up drained. And an extrovert doesn't go that deep. So they'll say a joke and there will be four people around them. One broke his leg. They wouldn't notice it. And then they're... God, we're great. No, I know. No, no, no. And there's nothing wrong with that because there is a place in the world for introverts that bring the energy and the fun and so on. And they're the best salespeople in the world and they're able to really, really know so many people. But then they're excited in that moment because they're not exerting that much effort to understand the intricacies of every single one you're with.

And that once again makes friendship very different for an introvert and extrovert. So for me as an introvert, I rarely ever go to group dinners or group lunches or like, okay, 15 friends are going to get together. Yeah, I do. But most of my conversations are one-to-one. I'm exactly the same. Yeah. It's either one-to-one or one-to-thousands.

Exactly. But there's a serious point here, which is it's the middle grouping that we find most draining. As much as we might be having lovely times within that. We enjoy it for sure. So Elizabeth, I need to question that Dunbar number. Okay, go ahead. Because I think the 150 connections has scaled for humanity. So there's no doubt in my mind that I probably know thousands

of people in the description that you started with. They could be someone who texted me on Instagram and then told me their story and I related to that story and then we had a quick chat. But I promise you, if I meet them at a retreat or at an event and they say, I'm Susan, I told you that story, I will actually remember. I mean, I'm not setting expectation here, but I will remember. Yeah. We don't know each other, but we don't also not know each other. Yes. So is there like a scale beyond that where human connection it's not friendship it's scale very interesting question and Dunbar's number has indeed been analyzed by people who have differing points of view and I believe and I might get this slightly wrong and apologies if I do but the methodology he used was

that he scaled upwards from primate brains in the neocortex and found that the human brain was X amount bigger and therefore the amount of human connections that the human brain could cope with was X amount bigger too. And there have been some people who've taken exception to that methodology, which I totally understand. I think that connection definitely is increasing in terms of how many people that we know on social media. But I'm not sure that knowing a salient fact about someone, knowing their name, knowing something about their family and knowing them well enough to invite them to a big family gathering, I'm not sure that that will ever truly change. But there's a caveat here, which I want to ask you about, which is AI.

Oh, man. What, yeah, what about AI and friendship? Will AIs be friends? 100%. And an AI capacity for connection is probably infinite. I mean, your teenage, you know, what do you call them? Stepchildren, yeah. They could have been chatting to an AI all the time.

They would not be able to know the difference. So this is the core of the question we have here is what is connection? Okay. Because when we started AI at the very early beginning, I wasn't alive then, but the fathers, grandfathers of AI, if you want Alan Turing and Marvin Minsky and so on, the idea of the Turing test was to say, there will be a point in the future where AI will be so good at mimicking humanity that you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. I think we've crossed that a long time ago. I mean, I always, you know, in my interviews say, go and search for the hashtag AI model, okay, or go and chat with Chad GPT. And it's quite shocking how if you didn't know that this graphic image was created by a machine, you would think that

she's a super hot model. Or if you didn't know that you were talking to a machine, you wouldn't know the difference. And the reality of the matter is that I think human connection is at very, very deep risk. This is why those core friends that we have, because I'll tell you hands down, I do not know yet how AI can replicate your hub. Everything else it will. You know, everything. There is technology today, not perfect yet, but call it version one, where I can create a virtual Elizabeth Day. Will you be able to create a virtual therapist

who can sit opposite a human client and understand the feeling and what is left unsaid and ask a question responding to that. 100%. So I know, I don't remember his name, but I met a professor at Stanford University that basically did that in the 90s and the early 2000s where, you know, because funny enough, he's actually head of psychology and he was really, really a very renowned therapist. And he said, we just wondered if a machine can do the job and just ask questions because therapists don't seem to give answers. And interestingly, the machine did better.

And interestingly, the machine did better. So ultimately, if humanity becomes extinct, does it matter? Are AIs simply advanced versions of humans? This is my podcast, Elizabeth. Sorry. But I've been wanting a chance to talk to you about it because... It is... I don't think humanity has such a tough question. So I know for a fact that in my lifetime, the one thing that will be worth more than gold is this. Because it's not just AI. When I really look at life now, again, as a mathematician, yeah, the algorithm is explosive.

We've added so many parameters into the game of the next 10 years that it's quite uncertain, okay? Next 10 years? Yeah, it is very uncertain. So politically, it's uncertain. Economically, it's uncertain. Other pand. So politically, it's uncertain. Economically, it's uncertain. Other pandemics and viruses, it's uncertain. Gene editing, it's uncertain. Climate change is uncertain. AI, it's uncertain. And that doesn't mean any of those is bad. It's just uncertain.

combine uncertainty with uncertainty, basically it's an exponential level of the chance of our current life staying as it is, is becoming one of a hundred million alternatives of possibilities. Okay. So this is the core of entropy on which physics is founded, is that the ability for humanity to retain the current way of life, in my personal view, is almost impossible. That everything will change so drastically over the next 10 years. The only thing that I could find that will not change so drastically is this, it's human connection. Wow. So the only thing that I value most in life today, Wow. So the only thing that I value most in life today that I believe, I don't know if within six years time, three years time, I will be completely bankrupt and homeless. It's possible, believe it or not. It's possible that I will never write a book again because of the economics of supply and demand of books being written by machines, right? It's possible that there could be a disruptive event in climate change

that we haven't anticipated. The only thing that I know for a fact I can control is our hub. Believe it or not. And I think this is why this book is so interesting for me, because we, I think the way you advocate in Friendaholic that we have to be very selective around where we put our energy is the key, is the key to the coming years. The key to the coming years is that we will have nothing left that we excel at, but this

deep human connection. And that's worth investing in. And going back to 2019 when we first met and you first came on How to Fail. It still is my podcast. I know. My final question. So AI was one of your failures because you felt that you had failed to see the damage it could wreak early enough. And when I asked you what we could all be doing today to help, you said it was such a great piece of advice.

And I quote it all the time. Be kind to Alexa and Siri and your Google pods. Say thank you. Say please and thank you. Be kind because AIs are learning from us all of the time. And the best way to handle it is to model kindness, connection. Be kind to everything. Actually, it doesn't have to do, just doesn't necessarily have to do with AI. The understanding of the current moment in time we're in is that we have found a way to put humanity on steroids, to take our intelligence and multiply it by a billion, to take our value system and

multiply it by a billion, to take our abilities to produce and just multiply it by millions, right? This is where we are. So the core of the issue is what are we multiplying? And it's never been, you know, one of the funniest things. I always smile when I get that question is people listen to my AI work and they start talking about, okay, Mo, so you say we should build ethical AI. What is ethical AI? And my answer is, what is ethics? Yes, exactly. Ethics are so simple. Treat others as you want to be treated. It's not that complicated when you really take it down to its bare bones. So when you talk about friendships and friendship reviews, as you coined the term now,

I just treat people as I'd like to be treated. By the way, when I tell someone I'm not able to spend more time with you, it's much better than ghosting them, which I've done. And sadly, because of my 97 constant stream of WhatsApps, some people may feel I'm ghosting them. But wouldn't it be much nicer if I actually go out there and apologize and say, hey, by the way, I just, and I do, many times people don't get it, but I do, I say, I'm just not able to keep up, right? And I think that kindness, that idea of if I were in their place, I would like someone to text me and say,

hey, by the way, I'm not ignoring you. I'm just overwhelmed and bombarded with more than I can deal with. I think that's all we have left. Believe it or not, it is all we have left. Oh, my gosh. Let's end on a happier note. There's nothing unhappy about that at all because we have this. Yes. So I think what people constantly miss in my message is I'm saying, they think I'm saying the world is going to end. I'm saying the world is going to change very drastically. Okay. And when it, if it's going to change that drastically,

we should be prepared for the change, not be surprised by it. Yes. Okay. And, and in a very, very interesting way, as a matter of fact, what I tell people is, look, your current way of life is game over. So until this is fact, enjoy the F out of it. Because the next one doesn't necessarily, it's not going to necessarily be bad or good. It's going to be very different. So enjoy that when it happens. But for now, live fully. Reach out to Elizabeth every now and then and say, how are you doing? And these connections, it depends on how far you can scale. But I think the answer that your book made very clear in my mind is they scale by allowing yourself to give more to those closer to you and less and less as they are further away.

And also, I think the way to maintain connection within that scale is to be fully authentic. So if you are showing up as yourself, that's the thing that people can connect most with. So when you said those very kind things at the beginning of this interview about my vulnerability and my passion for sharing that, it's because I fundamentally believe that vulnerability

is a shortcut to intimate connection. So if you are listening to this podcast, the only shortcut, if you're listening to this podcast right now and you feel connected to me or to Mo because of something we said, that is a real and that is a profound and beautiful connection. I think that's what made us so close. Yes. Yeah.

And we might never meet in real life, but we've had that moment of connection and we will always have that. And that's because we've shown up as ourselves. Yeah. Connection Junkie, your next book. My gosh, you're just coming up with amazing titles. Better than Friendaholic and Philosophy?

Are you kidding me? A similar title, like, I just love just coining a new phrase. Connection Junkie would work, actually. That's great. But not to criticize that. I am a connection junkie in every possible way. It's just that we don't have the bandwidth. Elizabeth, you have to go. I I know because I've made another connection no because you did not say no to something I know oh no now they will know that you didn't want to

go we did we're not going to say who they are okay no I do want to go oh my gosh this can we just cut that bit out no you do want to go and you love them very much. Let's not cut it out. I just love being next to you. You're a wonderful human being in every possible way. I value you, everything that you are, and our friendship so deeply. And honestly, a conversation with you just feels... Heaven?

Yeah. I love it. I feel at peace yeah thank you and for all of you listening I just uh yeah you're so unlucky because if you were here you would feel very different I don't know if cameras capture this but uh this is an awesome soul. If you have not read any of Elizabeth's work, actually, so start with Friendaholic. And I love how to fail and I love philosophy. Go listen to her podcast. Don't even waste your time on mine. And yeah, wonderful, wonderful, wonderful soul in every way. I'm honored to have her as a friend. I'm honored to spend time with her every now and then. I'm not even angry that I'm not Emma, but... I'm going to introduce you to... But yeah, life, you can't win every time.

For that, I hope that you have enjoyed this as much as I did. I doubt that you did. I ask you to spread it and tell others about it. And I am really, really grateful that you spent the time with me. I think you have seen firsthand a sample of what it is like for me to slow down, connected to a soul that is so dear to my soul. So do a bit of that because it doesn't really matter how busy you are this week. There's always a tiny bit of time to slow down. I love you all for listening and I will see you next time.

If you enjoyed this episode of How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, I would so appreciate it if you could rate, review and subscribe. Apparently, it helps other people know that we exist.