How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - Tom Ellis - Fatherhood, Surrogacy and Years of Therapy

Episode Date: September 3, 2025

You may know Tom Ellis as the devilishly charming lead in Netflix’s Lucifer, or as the lovable Gary in the BBC sitcom Miranda. He's also made waves in the U.S., starring alongside Gina Rodriguez in Players, and appearing in Hulu’s Tell Me Lies, created by his wife, Meghan Oppenheimer. In 2023, Tom and Meghan welcomed a daughter via surrogate, adding to his role as a proud dad of four. Now, his next big project is the star-studded film adaptation of Richard Osman’s bestselling novel The Thursday Murder Club, alongside Helen Mirren, Pierce Brosnan, and Richard E. Grant. In this episode, Tom opens up about modern fatherhood, navigating surrogacy, his fear of needles and what it's really like working on a series about sexual toxicity - with his real-life partner at the helm. ✨ IN THIS EPISODE: 00:00 Intro 01:25 From Cardiff to Hollywood 02:11 The Spiritual Journey 04:17 The Thursday Murder Club Experience 06:37 Personal Life and Surrogacy 10:20 Failures and Lessons in Sports 20:09 Discovering Acting 23:50 Being Recognised on the Street 24:04 Medical Green Card Failure 26:35 Discovering Vasovagal Condition 27:45 Becoming a US Citizen 27:54 Political Climate in the US 31:15 Working with his Wife 37:09 Financial Struggles as a Student 43:43 Cats and Family Life 💬 QUOTES TO REMEMBER: "I've had to face things that have been really uncomfortable. But I'm glad that I have done, because then I get back to a place of - this is where I should be. Acknowledging when I've been in the wrong place has been hard, but it's something that I've got better at" On therapy: "I've learned that you're just basically asking someone to ask you the questions that you're scared to ask yourself, because you probably know the answers already" 🔗 LINKS + MENTIONS: Tom Ellis stars in The Thursday Murder Club, available to watch now on Netflix Elizabeth’s upcoming one-off show at Cadogan Hall on 21 Sep for her new novel One of Us: ⁠https://www.fane.co.uk/elizabeth-day Elizabeth’s Substack: https://theelizabethday.substack.com/ Join the How To Fail community: https://howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content 📚 WANT MORE? Miranda Hart - https://link.chtbl.com/BoBbGenZ Richard Osman - https://link.chtbl.com/oo_ct3h3 Tom Daley - https://link.chtbl.com/FGrAfe6J 💌 LOVE THIS EPISODE? Subscribe on Spotify, Apple or wherever you get your podcasts Leave a 5⭐ review – it helps more people discover these stories Share with someone exploring neurodiversity or recovering their voice 👋 Follow How To Fail & Elizabeth: Instagram: @elizabday TikTok: @howtofailpod Podcast Instagram: @howtofailpod Website: www.elizabethday.org Substack: https://theelizabethday.substack.com/ Elizabeth and Tom Ellis answer YOUR questions in our subscriber series, Failing with Friends. Join our community of subscribers here: howtofailpod.com Have a failure you’re trying to work through for Elizabeth to discuss? Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com Production & Post Production Coordinator: Eric Ryan Sound Engineer: Matias Torres Assistant Producer: Suhaar Ali Senior Producer: Hannah Talbot Executive Producer: Carly Maile How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

So there was probably about 20 people gathered around my mum's vagina, just when we were being born. My dad said you came out to an audience and you've never really stopped since then. And growing up with sisters, do you think that helps you understand women? Definitely. How did you work all of that out? Years of therapy. Welcome to How to Fail, the podcast that believes, as Truman Capote did, that failure is the condiment that gives success its flavour. Okay, a breaking news, because I absolutely have to tell you about my new TV obsession,

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The actor Tom Ellis was born in Cardiff and raised in Sheffield, the son of a Baptist minister. It was a religious upbringing which makes it all the more ironic that the role for which he has arguably become most famous is playing the Devil Incarnate in Netflix's hit series Lucifer, which ran for six seasons and became the most watched streaming series in the world in 2019. Ellis studied at the Royal Scottish Academy of Music and Drama and broke onto our screens as Gary in the beloved BBC One sitcom Miranda. Since then, he starred in US dramas including players with Gina Rodriguez and Hulus Tell Me Lies, where the showrunner is his wife, Megan Oppenheimer. The couple welcomed a daughter via surrogate in 2023. It's a rapid ascent that shows no signs of abating.

Ellis next appears in the highly anticipated film adaptation of Richard Osmond's best-selling mystery novel, The Thursday Murder Club, alongside Helen Mirren, Pierce Brosnan and Richard E. Grant. And yet, Ellis was rejected from the first four drama schools he applied to. Still, some inner resolution kept him going. As he puts it, you have to get used to rejection if you're going to do it, but I had this feeling inside of me that it was going to work out, and it did. That feeling has carried me through my adult life. Stay in your lane, do your thing, it's all going to be all right. Tom Ellis, welcome to How to Fail. Hello, nice to meet you.

Lovely to meet you too. And I'm guessing as well that you grew up with the idea of there being a path, whether that was a spiritual feeling or a religious one, Did you feel and do you feel that the universe kind of has its plans for you? I do. I mean, it's a strange one. I think, you know, when I was a kid growing up, I used to think that it would be God and God's plan and all of those things. Because that's what I essentially learned from day one.

I think as I've gotten older, I've taken a step back from organized religion, but I still hold on to a sense of spirituality. and a sense that there's something much bigger that we can't put our finger on. And there's no point trying to explain it. Yes. Sorry, we've got so deep so quickly, but I think that's so interesting because if something doesn't feel right to you, have you also got more practice at acknowledging and recognising that and changing course? Definitely. I mean, I think I've always tried to avoid that conflict.

Like it's a big thing. that it's a family trait I've learned but as I've gotten older I've I've had to have had to face things that I've been really uncomfortable but I'm glad that I have done because then I get back to a place of like this is where I should be and I think acknowledging when I've been in the wrong place has been hard but it's something that I've got better at gosh well not only we were discussing before we started recording the fact that what we have in common is that we are both 1978 November Scorpio's the best version exactly Big up the 978 Scorpio's.

But the fact that you're a people-pleaser, that's another huge thing that we have in common. And it is something that it's been a lifetime's work for me, dismantling myself from that desire to keep everyone happy. Yeah. And to sort of outsource your sense of self to what you think other people are feeling about you.

Accommodating people. Yes. And thinking about other people's, you know, comfortable, whether someone's comfortable in an environment or stuff. let's talk about the Thursday Murder Club you have described the cast as like a bucket list of all the people I've ever wanted to work with

true so that must be exciting but it must also have been very intimidating oh my God incredibly intimidating I mean it's funny actually because I remember my first day on set I was working with Dame Helen Mirren Sir Ben Kingsley

Pierce Brosnan and the amazing Celia Imrey and my character in it is actually sort of a minor personality he was a boxer and now he and now he does you know reality TV and stuff like that so he he is a celebrity to all of those characters in it so I come in to this scene and they're all falling over me and I'm thinking if you knew what was going on in my head right now this is role reversal that's so funny did you meet Stephen Spielberg wow do you know what we were on set one day Richard Osman was there for a set visit and we were filming in this beautiful

like stately home just outside Redding and it was a busy day there was a big crowd scene and lots of the cast were there and then there was this helicopter that was flying really low overhead and someone said oh that's Stephen

and I was like what Steven Spielberg and they were like yeah yeah he's coming to visit today and I was like what what really couldn't believe it and yeah lo and behold he parked his helicopter

and he came up this driveway and he came and said hello to all the main cast I was going to say the four biggies and I was stood shoulder to shoulder with David Tennant who's also in the film and we were there going I can't believe it's Steven Spielberg and then as time went on he was doing photographs with a few people and then we turned to each other and said do you think anyone's going to actually introduce this to him and no one did so he kind of did his visit and then he left and we both were a bit quiet and the next day we came in and I said David I was so disappointed about yesterday and he went so was I

So Steven Spielberg is a producer He's the one who produced it Yeah so Amblin Entertainment Which is his production company They're the people that bought the rights to the books Before the books were published actually And yeah They are making them into big Hollywood movies

With Chris Columbus directing Now I mentioned in the introduction That your wife, Megan, is the showrunner of Tommy Lies Now she's developing or has developed a new show called Second Wife starring you and she happens to be your second wife. Indeed. Now, am I drawing the right conclusion

that it might be loosely based? I'm also a second wife. Right. Actually, I've been a second wife twice over. Oh. Yeah, so if she wants to talk to me. Is it loosely based on that experience because I'm riveted by it

and I can't wait to watch it. It is. It's based on, I mean, it is that classic thing of, you know, we want to write something that we know about. And I think there are very, There's lots of nuances about being a step-parent, for example, and being a parent who has children that goes into another marriage where you don't have children.

And there are so many things that happen within that and so many feelings that you go through that while you're going through them, a lot of the time you feel like you're the only person that's ever experienced this. And then, of course, as time goes on, you start talking to people and realize it's a very shared experience. I can't wait to watch it, as I said, and I do think you're so right, when you are particularly a step-parent, it's a story that you can't share without also taking into consideration the people that you're sharing it about. So my story as a step-parent is not just mine, and I'm very protective of the fact that it involves other people. And so that's why it often feels like you are just the only one experiencing it, because there are so few stories about it.

Yeah, no, absolutely. And I also, I would love to talk to you, if you don't mind, about surrogacy. Because I'm someone who went through a loss of fertility treatment unsuccessfully for very many years. And so I salute couples who are brave enough to do what you did. And I think it's such a beautiful thing. And I can't even imagine the emotional complexities that you went through. So I just wanted to ask you a little bit about that and about that experience to get your lovely daughter. Lovely Dolly. Well, I think we should start with Lovely Dolly because, you know, I'm a parent of four children now. One of them is an adult. And I, all my children have been delivered in different ways. But I think the end game is every parent just wants to have a, you know, a healthy child at the end of it. And how you get there, I think lots of people have opinions.

about that, but it doesn't really matter at the end of the day. And I think, you know, surrogacy is a really viable option for people where it's difficult to do it if you don't have other options. And it might seem very alien to people that have not done it. But it became its own thing, you know, we became very friendly with our surrogate. She was incredible. her and her husband, you know, were fantastic, especially when Dolly was actually being born. And it seems like a very sort of strange relationship if you're not part of it.

But when you are, it makes complete sense. So, yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Childbirth and being a parent comes with lots of opinions from people. And I've been happier in life when I've closed my ears off to those opinions. basically. It's a beautiful end to that story, and Dolly's also a Scorpio.

She is indeed. Well done that. We've got another one. Well done for the timing. Okay, let's get on to your failures. So your first failure is your failure at being a sportsman. Yeah. What kind of sports were you into?

All sport. I was obsessed, and I still am obsessed with All Sport. Football, obviously, when you're a kid, I think certainly in this country, that's the main one, isn't it? It's the everyman sport and everyone dreams of being a footballer. And, you know, everyone plays. It's such an easy game to kind of like put a couple of sweaters down. And I think it's something that I was pretty decent as well. Not just the football, but like cricket, rugby. I was very able. But I was never quite good enough to pursue it and it was frustrating

and I think one of the main reasons that happened and I was sort of resentful for it my whole sort of childhood was because I grew up in the church and that meant that on Sundays I had to go to church and those were the days when extracurricular clubs

tended to happen for kids and so I didn't have that outlet and so I was never able to really truly hone my skills outside of school And subsequently, I kind of realized maybe when I was about 14 or 15 that that dream was never going to happen. How interesting. And so what's it like? When I say your father was a Baptist minister, what's that like?

I mean, I look back on it now, and I'm really appreciative of it. As I say, at the time growing up, it got in the way of me wanting to do the things I really wanted to do. you know, I appreciate it now for so many things. It's quite strange when you're the preacher's kid, or a P-K, as we used to call ourselves, because you're almost like a little minor celebrity. Like on a Sunday, you know, my dad is like the main celebrity, and everyone wants to talk to him, everyone wants to impress him, everyone wants to have their moment with him.

And then I would sort of, after church, you know, be speaking to everybody. In a weird sort of way, it sort of honed my social skills. again, didn't appreciate that until I left, you know, and lived on my own and became an adult. It set me up for lots of good things in my life, but at the time, I was so resentful. Hey, everyone, it's Jonathan Van Ness. If my dogs could talk, they'd be like, uh, excuse me, Queen, where's my Ollie? You better make it rain, diva, because we are not going to cuddle with you or anything if you don't get us our Ollie. And honestly, I can't blame them. Listen to the titles of these little foods. It sounds like it could be on a brunch venue. Fresh beef with sweet potatoes,

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One of them is a twin Yeah Tell me about being a twin Well, again I don't know any different You were the heaviest twins on record When you were born, weren't you? My sister and I were on the front page of the South Wales Echo

At two days old With the headline record breakers Honestly, you should be so proud I was so proud I was £9 £3 ounces And my sister was £7 £5 ounces Your mum She's carrying around just like £17 £17 £1.

Yeah plus all the fluid and everything else So it was like crazy My gosh And it was at the University of Hospital Wales in Cardiff So this is why my dad thinks I became an actor Because basically when we were born News had got around to these medical students That these massive twins were going to be born

So there was probably about 20 people gathered around my mum's vagina just when we were being born and my dad said you came out to an audience and you've never really stopped since then. Oh my goodness. What does your sister do? My sister is a head teacher at primary school. Is she? Which is so interesting because that's also I imagine a part of that you can see the connection between minister, head teacher, actor. There's a performance element to all of it. You have to be comfortable, you know, speaking in front of people or putting on a persona to speak in front of people for sure. Was your mom okay? My mom was fine and the weird thing is that she had us naturally, which just wouldn't happen these days.

And my sister was first and she was breached, so that wouldn't happen. I mean, it's all, it's bonkers to think about it. Yeah. I know that it's probably very annoying as a twin to get asked about being a twin, and you probably get asked this all the time. Go on. Can you guess what I'm going to ask? Do we have similar thoughts?

Are we kind of, do we have that telepathy? If something's happening, can you feel that? We don't have that. And I wonder whether that is something that happens with identical twins, because they've come from the same egg that split, whereas we were separate eggs that just happened to share. We were wombies, as I like to call me. Womates. Woonmates.

And growing up with sisters, do you think that helps you understand women? Definitely. Yes, without a shadow of doubt. And to the point where, you know, I had friends that grew up just with boys and they would struggle, you know, having platonic friendships with girls because they couldn't think about girls other than, you know, the opposite sex and thinking about it from that point of view. And I just never really had that obstacle. I just, everyone was the same. And, you know, it was certainly advantageous when I was a teenager and my sisters would bring their friends

home. And I got to sort of, you know, witness and be part of the world that other people would come to school going, I wonder what it is they talk about. I wonder how to be. It was just a very natural thing for me. I'm very, I'm going to come back to the sport. But before we do, I very interested in this and how people pleasing plays out later in life. So as I mentioned, I think I really identify with that categorization. And it held me back in my romantic relationships in a way I didn't realize at a time, at the time, because I didn't know who I was. I was so embedded in the idea of trying to please my partner that I ended up, yeah, just losing touch with my own needs, wants and desires.

Did you have any of that experience in your romantic relationships? Yeah, no, for sure. I mean, that really resonates with me, actually. I think because I came from a good upbringing, should we say, I felt I had a sort of savior complex a little bit as well, where I felt, you know, I've got nothing bad in my life, and I can only offer you good things. And so I would gravitate towards people that maybe hadn't had such a great upbringing

and feel like I really had something to offer. And I look back at it now and think, God, I was such an idiot to be like that. But it does come out of that thing to want someone, you know, I want you to like me. Is it a voice in my head all the time in any environment I go into? If I'm at work at the moment and someone is, you know, deemed difficult or something like that, I see that as a challenge to make them to want them to like me. Yeah. And it's a good attribute in certain environments. But I think you really have to look after your heart.

when you're like that because you can as I've you know alluded to before I think you open yourself up to people take an advantage of that sometimes as well and if you're in a place where you're accommodating someone who's very um forthright and very adamant about things and whatever it it can diminish you somewhat and you can make yourself small without realizing it and then before you know it you've really lost a sense of self and you feel a bit lost How did you work all of that out? Years of therapy. Yes, I mean, I've been in, I've had therapy, you know, on and off throughout my adult life.

You know, it's come at times where something big has happened and I feel like, you know, I've had to do it. And actually, from that, I've realised that it's better just to continually talk about oneself in an environment where you're not, you know, annoying people. You're paying someone to listen to you talk about yourself. But I think, you know, through therapy I've learned that you're just basically asking someone to ask you the questions that you're scared to ask yourself because you probably know the answers already. What do you think? This might be too personal. So feel free not to answer it. What do you think is the scariest question you've ever been asked?

The scariest question. I don't know if it's a question. I don't know if it's a question so much as a kind of, it's more about admitting stuff to oneself. And I think getting out of your own way to do that is really important. And you have to lose your ego. You have to be humble. And you have to want to try and be better, I guess.

And my main, I think my main thing is that I don't, want to repeat mistakes and I want to be aware as to why I've done something. Why did I behave like that? What was going on? What was I thinking? Why was I thinking that way? Because I can recognise when I'm not being myself. I can recognise when I've drifted too far away from it. But it's, you know, it's time. It's getting old. It's having children. It's lots of things, you know, put stuff in perspective. Well, come back to being an actor in a second. The sportsman failure. What do you think it taught you letting go of that dream? Because it is, especially as a teenager, it is quite profound thinking to yourself, I'm not going to be good enough. So I need to

let that go. What I did was that I decided, well, if I can't do that, I'd like to do something to do with that. So I was really on a path of wanting to work in like physiotherapy and sports injuries. I thought if I can't run on the pitch as a player, at least I can run on a pitch with the magic sponge. So I think that that was how I was sort of channeling that disappointment, basically. It was weird because I didn't, I stumbled across acting at like the age of 17. So I'd really spent most of my school years never doing that, you know, wasn't part of my life. And it was sport, sport, sport, sport. I guess stumbling across acting was the real point of like, oh, okay, this is what I should be doing. And you stumbled across it because

of a teacher, is that right? Yeah. Yeah, my old teacher, Claire Pender, who I'm still really good friends with actually. I was doing A-levels and I was doing sports science, history and English. And I did a couple of weeks of the history course. And I just, it wasn't a period of history that I was that into. And I just wasn't enjoying it. So I didn't really know what to do. And I went to my six-form tutors and said, I'm going to drop history. And they said, well, you have to do something else. And I didn't know what. And then Claire had been my English teacher previously in school. And she came to me like in a nervous kind of excitement and said, I hear you're looking for a third A level. I said, yeah. She said, I'm running the theatre studies course. And I've got

12 girls and one boy. I really need boys. And I went, how many girls? And completely the wrong motivation to do something but I said yeah I'll come along and you know literally within like two or three lessons I was like oh I'm really enjoying this and as that sort of year progressed there was a school play she cast me in the lead of that and I did we did that school play and another friend of mine whose mom used to be an actress came to see it she called me the next day and said I saw you in the play last night I really think you should think about doing this and I told my teacher that and she said well

I think you should think about doing this as well and so at the next parents' evening she convinced my parents that I should audition for drama school and we will talk more about drama school because it pertains to one of your failures but if you'll indulge me

and my listeners because we've had Miranda on this podcast before and she is beloved getting that role as Gary what was that whole experience like for you being in Miranda? It was I mean ultimately it was amazing

I'll never forget being sent the script I didn't know who Miranda was at the time and she had she wasn't you know people knew her in the comedy world but she wasn't particularly known at home at that point in time and I got sent this script and at the time it was called Miranda Hart's joke shop and it was a pilot script

and I'd because I didn't know who she was I didn't know how she delivered her lines or anything like that I was reading this script thinking what on earth is this I think it's funny I can't work it out But I was you know My interest was Pete So I went to the audition

And Miranda was there And so she read the scenes with me And it was during that process I was thinking Oh my God this woman's hilarious This suddenly all makes sense And I think I know What I would do with this for Gary

And we just had a really lovely meeting And we did the pilot And I didn't know what to expect after the pilot and I watched it back and it came out really well and then we got commissioned as this tiny little show on BBC 2

and I think it was the first time that I'd done a job where I noticed people coming up to me afterwards, I've seen this thing and I didn't know at the time whether it was going to be received well or not because it was really against the grain of how comedy was going

but it was just amazing that people responded in the way that they did And do they still, when you come back to London, do you... Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I either get Gary or Lucifer in the street, that's why I get. Just people shouting that at you.

Yeah, Lucifer. Yeah. Okay, your second failure is that you failed at your medical for your US screen card. Oh, God. I can't wait to hear this story. Yeah. So, when I was growing up, I, um, it, When I was seven years old, I fell off my bike.

And my mum was a music teacher. I remember she was doing a piano lesson at the time, so she couldn't tend to me. So my elder sister did, and I grazed my knee. And she had to, like, put TCP on it and put a plaster on it. And I passed out. And the first time, never happened to me before. I felt funny, passed out. Remember coming around, and my sister was over me going, oh, my God.

And my mom ran running in from the piano lesson. and that was the first time of many times in my life that I passed out at like the sight of blood or having some sort of medical procedure like having my blood taken or an injection or whatever and I sort of lived with that my whole life being told I was a bit of a wuss and oh told you're going to pass out you have to lie down and all of these things and at my medical for my US green card they had to take blood and before that I'd filled out a form

that said have you ever suffered from you know and you always say no to these things have you ever suffered from this no no no no no fainting dizziness no blah blah blah

anyway the doctor then takes my blood starts asking me questions and I can feel it happening and I'm like I'm really sorry I think I'm about to

and I was out and I came around and the doctor was panicking and basically they sorted me out you know, I don't know if you've ever, have you ever fainted? Yes. When you come around from a faint, you're like sweaty, like, don't know where you are.

Just it's horrible when it takes a bit of time to get your shit together, basically. But when I finally got together, she went, okay, I'm going to have to fail you. And I said, okay, and she said, because you said all these things on your form and you've just displayed to me that you're prone to fainting. so I'm going to defer this and you have to get neurological tests Oh my gosh So I had to I ended up going back like

You know six months later and passing it But Did you go for neurological tests? I went for neurological Everything's fine It is that you're just a wussing So here's the thing So that is the UK NHS version of my ailment

Okay, wistness I now have lived in the States for a while And I was explaining this to a doctor in the States because they'd asked me to come in to have some blood taken. And they said, have you ever taken anything for that? And I was like, no one has ever offered me anything for it. What are you talking about? And they said, well, what you're describing to me is a condition called vasa vagal.

And it's basically to do with your vagal nerve and to do with your nervous system. And essentially, it's a panic attack. It's a form of panic attack. And it's your body deciding something is really bad. and your nervous system shuts down and you go into fight or flight. And so that's why you pass out because it's protecting you. For whatever reason, blood, injections, medical stuff causes that reaction in me.

And this doctor said, if you were to take like an anti-anxiety medication before you do these things, it will probably switch off that side of your nervous system and it won't happen. So I said, I'm willing to give it a shot. and I came in the following week to have my bloodstaken, having taken one of these things beforehand, and I was absolutely fine. So you've got your green card now? I've now actually a US citizen, because that was 15 years ago.

Do you like being a US citizen? I think I've become a US citizen at the worst possible time, unfortunately. I love the States. I've got so many friends, got family there now, obviously. It is a strange time to be a US citizen. I'm terrified of the new administration and what they're going to do. And I feel like whereas in 2016 there was a real sort of active response as to how people felt about Trump being in power, this time around it feels like everyone's gone quiet. It feels very passive.

And while it's passive, all this stuff is happening. And that is terrifying because, I mean, it hopefully will only be four years if he has. has his way. I think he'll probably try and change the system and be there as long as he can be. And how does it feel being in LA specifically? Because LA and California has always been seen as its own particular enclave. And that must be nice in some ways, but also weird in others. I mean, it is. I think, you know, people will say this about the states. The two coasts think very differently to everyone else in the middle. And there is, you know, there is a generic truth to that. I think the thing that's shocking for me this time round is that a lot of people

secretly voted for Trump last time. This time, they've not been so secretive about it. And even in California, I'm shocked about the amount of people that even if they are traditionally Republican, I would hope that they would have enough common sense to realize that he isn't. and that's a very different thing that you're signing up for. But I think, unfortunately, you know, money talks in the States. It very much is, you know, it is the currency, but it also is the currency of how people value life. And people are prone to looking after number one first there.

And the sense of social conscience, I don't think exists in the way that we know it. And that's quite worrying. Have you spoken to Megan about not always living there? Yes, we have. I mean, we've talked about it, but, you know, 50% of America doesn't like Trump, at least 50%. And Trump doesn't represent America. He represents a certain type, and he represents commerce,

and he represents business and the worst things that come with that. But I don't think he represents American people. And I think that to just leave a place because you don't like the ruler, if it's a democratic place and there is an opportunity to have your say, then I think just upping, you know, to upsticks and leave, I think would be the wrong thing to do. I think we need to spend the next few years like regrouping, gathering proper opposition and going again in, you know, three and a half years. and properly, you know, getting to the end of this. Yes, I salute you in that endeavor. It's a very, very strange time. This episode is brought to you by Defender.

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app for details. Will you talk to me a little bit about Megan? What's it like working with your wife? I mean, I guess you worked with her before she was your wife. Did you? I did, yeah. We met, we didn't meet at work. We met outside of work.

But I did. I worked on a show of hers a few years ago called Queen America. And then I worked on Tell Me Lies last year. I love working with her. I mean, she is so brilliant at what she does. she's so intelligent, emotionally intelligent, but also intelligent from a performative point of view because she used to be, when she was growing up,

she used to be an actor. And so the way in which she can communicate with actors is really quite special, I think, and the way she can communicate from page to actor is a skill that is few and far between, I have to say, there's not many directors that can do that well. And we have a huge amount of respect for each other outside, side of loving each other.

A lot of people would think that working on a show like Tell Me Lies that I did last year with her, which is a show about sexual toxicity and there's, you know, very explicit scenes within it. I think a lot of people would think, isn't that strange that you're doing that

and your wife is like sitting there watching it? Which I can, you know, I can appreciate. But actually it wasn't. I felt safe doing that. And And I felt safe because she is really, really good at separating church and state. You know, we buzz off each other in terms of creativity. But I also just, I defer to her on lots of things because I think she's super intelligent, basically.

Yeah. And is it a relationship where you feel fully accepted flaws and all? Because again, I'm going back to, I'm just superimposing my personal experience. that I think again the people-pleasing piece for me was trying to sort of manage someone's opinion of me which obviously you can't really manage and I was trying to present myself as being better than I was trying to present myself as being perfect

which obviously is impossible because no one's perfect and perfect is boring and now I feel so lucky that I'm in a relationship where the imperfections are part of why he loves me I think I couldn't have said it any better to be honest I met Megan at a time where it was impossible for me to hide my imperfections and I was in a place where I was happy to talk about my faults but I was just open about talking about the fact I wasn't perfect

and acknowledging that and wanting to be better and wanting something better and, you know, realising all of my flaws and that I won't always make the right decision and all of those things. And similarly, Megan was in a place like that too where, you know, she's got lots and lots of things that are not perfect. But I think what we love about each other

is our imperfections. And I think that is a very different place to where I've been before in life. And why did you get to that place where you could finally just talk about it? Because life hadn't gone how I thought it would, basically. I was out of a marriage that didn't work. And I think you learn a lot through that process

and you have to go through a lot of soul searching. And you have to kind of be very honest with yourself. And, you know, out of that hardship, I was a much, I guess, more resilient, stronger person but also I was much more open to being vulnerable and I cry so much more than I used to. I think that I, again, you know, talking about being younger, I was obsessed with that notion of the perfect life.

You know, my mum and dad married very young. My eldest sister married very young, still with a husband, my twin sister, still with a husband. And I was sort of surrounded by this notion of how it should be. And when it didn't work out like that, I realized I still existed and breathed and I still was a person, I still had things to offer. But it was, I had to be open and honest about my failings in order to move forward. Thank you for sharing that.

And again, I relate to so much of it. And I went through a divorce, as I mentioned, but I didn't have children with my ex-husband. So I know how much more nuanced and complicated it is if you do have kids. And I think you said something really beautiful at the beginning of this episode about how, if a relationship ends, that doesn't make it a failure. Yeah. That actually, as you've just described, you learn so much and you can still be in relationship with that relationship, even though it's passed, because you're still learning from it.

And you still have your gorgeous kids and all of that. but that's slightly different, I think, from regretting. Do you regret anything? How do you feel about regret? I think it's easy to say you regret things, but actually, no, I don't. I don't regret anything. I mean, I wish it had been easier. I wish things had been easier sometimes in life, but I don't regret anything because I think

that every time I made a choice or decided something or felt the way I felt, that's how I was feeling at the time. I wasn't pretending I wasn't you know I and I really I'm sure when you got married the first time you thought that was it you know that's it for life

but I went into everything with great intentions and so no I don't have regrets your final failure is your failure at finances as a student oh God

so now we're going back a bit so Claire Pender has got you into drive And you have applied to drama schools, you got rejected from four, but you kept on going. And now you're at drama school. And is this when you're failing at finances? Yes. So the other thing about growing up in the church is that we didn't have a lot of money. So I didn't have parents that could like support me through college and stuff. So I had to get loans. And I think I was the last year of getting a government grant to pay for my fees.

Yes, because we're the same vintage. Right, exactly. Same vintage. Yeah, it was tuition fees. Yes. I just could, yeah, yeah. So I had to get student loans for living, but my fees were paid for, thankfully. So it was the first time in my life that I'd been given an overdraft. It was the first time in my life that I had, when the loan came in, I had a whack of money in my account.

And it was the first time in my life that I'd lived away from home. And it was the perfect storm. basically of how it was like brewster's millions but without millions I I basically and I you know I was 18 years old and I loved what I was doing but I also I loved going out I love going to the pub love drinking you know socialising all of it and that first you know a lot of my friends were going to university and going to university is very different to going to drama school

You go to university, you were in a few days a week for lectures, and the rest of the time is yours. I had to be in every day, nine till six, and longer than that, if we were rehearsing something. And you're expected to be incredibly disciplined and all of those things. And I wasn't that good in my first year. I spent all my money, all my overdraft, my loans. I just, you know, I remember having zero money at all to buy food. I was living off like a can of bake beans every two days or something like that. And at the end of my first year, I had a £1,500 overdraft, which back then was a lot.

And I had spent all of my loan, and I had to be in Sheffield for 10 weeks over the summer. And the bank said, we can't give you any more overdraft facility. We can't do anything until you've paid this all back. so for 10 weeks I did three jobs I was working full time on a building site I was working in the evenings in a pub and then I worked at my old job at Tesco's doing the fruit and veg on a Saturday and a Sunday and spent that entire time paying it all back but also realizing that I never ever wanted to do that again and I needed to buck my ideas up and it totally changed my attitude at drama school because I think towards the end of the year I'd had a meeting with one of the teachers there and they said you've missed so many classes you're on the precipice of being thrown out

and that combined with my financial skills I realized that I needed to do something and that whole summer became a sort of a humbling process of you can't allow this to happen you've been given this opportunity you've worked so hard for it you need to buck your ideas up So, yeah, I decided I don't ever want to be a full-time barman.

I don't ever want to be a builder. And I don't ever, you know, want to work in Tesco's full-time. I want to be an actor. And I went back with a fresh bank balance, spent £50 a week. That was my budget. And became one of the top students at drama school. Well done. Yeah.

What a turnaround? I know. What were you doing with fruit and veg? Exactly. Oh, just produce, just stocking the produce. You were just stocking it. Yes. But it was particularly, you either did.

that or you did the shop floor which was the other you know other groceries and stuff but if you did fruit and veg so that was just your spot and you had to kind of like rotate the fruit make sure all the stuff that was about to go out of date was at the front all of that sort of stuff what's the most difficult fruit or veg to stack good question this is where I ask the questions that really cacked oh I don't know probably the one that is also the most comedic for me which is the Butternut squash. The boss nut squash, okay, yes, because it's got quite a smooth, slippy surface. It does.

And, yes, it doesn't always fit together like pieces of jigsaw. Yeah, okay. When you see a buttonnut squash now, does it sort of trigger you? It does trigger me. And also, I can't help but pick it up, hold it somewhere around my midriff, and shout across to my wife and say, do we need one of these, babe? You got your club card. That kind of glimpse that you had into financial precariousness.

Has that stayed with you in any way? Do you still fit? Yeah, I can see it. Yeah, no, it does. It does. I'm very careful or try to be. I have a lot of, you know, outgoings as an adult with, you know, several children and stuff. It sort of money just disappears these days.

But I've always been mindful of, I've never been frivolous, really. And I certainly don't go out anywhere near as. as much as I used to. Do you like being a dad? I love being a dad. What do you think is the most important thing that being a dad to four different children

of four different ages? What's the most important thing it's taught you? That love will conquer many, many things and unconditional love is so powerful. And I think when you have children, that is the one source in life

where true unconditional love comes from. And so it's valuable and you want to cherish it. And, you know, nothing makes me happier than laughing with my children. I remember, you know, at certain times in their life, I have laughed more with them and from a place where I don't laugh about other things. I think that sort of true connection and that true sense of knowing someone, like to the depth of their soul is someone that comes with being a parent. And it's kind of untouchable.

Gorgeous. A seamless link now to talk about cats just before we close this part. Because that's another thing that we have in common. Oh, really? Obsession with cats. Well, I wouldn't say it's necessarily my obsession. It's an obsession that I have inherited through my wife. Well, I love the sound of Megan.

You have two cats, Cain and Abel. We do, yeah. Okay. But I've seen loads of pictures of you posing with caps. Well, we also, we work with a cat charity Right, that'll be one And yeah, basically we've done a lot of Fostering of kittens and cats over the years as well

Stop it So do you like cats? I do now Okay, now, okay Well, I grew up It's funny, isn't it? You have to be dog or cat, you can't be both I know, silly

I grew up with dogs and my family are very much dog family And so I was always taught to be suspicious of cats and didn't have a lot of time for them but through Megan I've realized that they're just quite wonderful creatures getting some kind of affection from your cat is one of the most rewarding things in the world

again being a people pleaser and being a cat owner are two things that don't really work I was about to say it's actually really great therapy for someone who needs approval I'm talking about myself here it's so good because there's just nothing you can do to control the approval or otherwise of your cat

not at all they're completely of their own mind and they can make you feel wonderful but they can also make you feel just like terrible and needy but they're... They can't believe that we've brought this little baby

into the house and they just they still can't handle it they don't like Dolly at all. Oh no. Just Dolly like them? Oh, Dolly loves them. One of her first words has been Kitty.

Oh my God. And She, I mean, the game that happens every morning in the house is that the cats will be up. We'll go down stairs when Dolly wakes up. She'll see them, run towards them, get about a foot away, and then they'll run away and disappear under our bed until she goes to bed at night. Well, you know what's great is that she's growing up not to be a people or a cat pleaser. That's true. So she'll grow up with her own sense of self and validation and identity and all of that.

Tom Ellis, it's been a real pleasure talking to you. Oh, it's been lovely. Thank you. Thank you so much coming on How to fail. Please do follow how to fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.