How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - Vanessa Williams - ‘It would be hard to be married to me!’

Episode Date: July 16, 2025

As a recording artist, Vanessa Williams has earned 13 Grammy nominations and racked up over 212 million digital streams over the course of her eight albums. Her most popular hit, Save The Best For Last, was Number 1 for five weeks in 1992. She is also a highly successful stage and screen actor, appearing in Desperate Housewives and Ugly Betty. She is currently starring on the West End stage as Miranda Priestly in the musical adaptation of The Devil Wears Prada. It’s all a long way from her historic crowning as the first African-American Miss America in 1983 - she was later forced to resign after unauthorised photos taken when she was a student were leaked without her consent.  Vanessa joins us for an honest, hilarious and no-holds-barred conversation about her childhood, her romantic relationships, and - in a How To Fail first - why she regrets sending her daughter to boarding school. Elizabeth and Vanessa answer YOUR questions in our subscriber series, Failing with Friends. Join our community of subscribers here: https://howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content 00:00 Intro 02:47 Overcoming Scandal and Achieving Success 06:24 The Joys and Challenges of Stage Performance 10:31 Reflecting on Miss America 18:30 Family and Personal Reflections 23:40 Looking at Transparency and Shared Struggles 24:11 The Impact of Losing a Mother 26:00 A Mother's Influence on Trust and Relationships 28:51 Navigating High School Friendships and Trust Issues 30:07 Romantic Relationships and Parental Approval 34:58 Coping with Parental Loss and Family Dynamics 43:41 Musical Legacy and Family Bonds Have a failure you’re trying to work through for Elizabeth to discuss? Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com  I have an upcoming one-off show at Cadogan Hall on 21 Sep for my new novel One of Us. Full show details here: ⁠https://www.fane.co.uk/elizabeth-day Production & Post Production Coordinator: Eric Ryan   Studio & Sound Engineer: Matias Torres Assistant Producer: Suhaar Ali Senior Producer: Hannah Talbot Executive Producer: Carly Maile How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production.   Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello wonderful listeners and viewers. Now don't forget about my subscriber show, Failing With Friends, where my brilliant guests get to be agony aunts, uncles, or non-binary advice givers. Join the family, just follow the link in the show notes. Hello and welcome to How To Fail with me Elizabeth Day. This is the podcast that believes failure connects us all, whoever we might be, wherever we might have come from. And that's why I ask a guest every single week about three times they failed in their life and what if anything they learned along the way. My life goal was not to be Miss America. That was part of the journey. My expectations of what a true man was, was really high. So I think it would be hard to be married to me.

Okay guys, where there's a will there's a wake meeting commenced. What's on the agenda? Well, I've got my eye on a vintage Patti Lepone bedspread and a Peter Purvis roller blind, and I need to raise a bit of cash for it. Will Barron What you need, Mel, is a new business idea. What are you into apart from Patti Lepone and Peter Purvis? Mel Davies Great question. Walking? Musicals? Mel Davies Death? Will Barron I like it.

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start selling today at Shopify.co.uk slash wake. Go to Shopify.co.uk slash wake. Go to shopify.co.uk slash wake. Shopify.co.uk slash wake. Vanessa Williams grew up in Westchester County, New York, a child of two music teachers. She studied French horn, piano, violin and dance. And one of her early memories is of turning the pages of sheet music as her mother played the organ for weddings. With such a creative upbringing, it's perhaps no surprise that Williams went on to make her mark in music.

As a recording artist, she has earned 13 Grammy nominations and racked up over 212 million digital streams over the course of her eight albums. Her most popular hit, Save the Best for Last, was number one for five weeks in 1992. But her talents are not limited to music alone. Over a four-decade career, she has been a highly successful stage and screen actor, appearing in Desperate Housewives and as the diva-esque magazine boss Wilhelmina Slater in the sitcom Ugly Betty. She is currently starring on stage as another editorial ice queen, Miranda Priestly in the musical adaptation of The Devil Wears Prada. At 62 then, she

is as busy and booked as ever. It's all a long way from her historic crowning as the first African-American Miss America in 1983. She was later forced to resign after unauthorised photos taken when she was a student were leaked without her consent. She described that period as the hardest in my life, but turned it around to pull off an astonishing comeback. As Williams herself says, it's great to be underestimated because there's always that element of surprise. Miss Vanessa Williams, welcome to How to Fail. Well, thank you. It's such a pleasure to have you here. I really love that idea of using underestimation to

your own advantage. And I wonder if you look back at your life, whether you feel that your knockbacks in certain ways have been set ups for comebacks. You know, at 62, and I know your whole premise of the show is looking at failures. But when you examine the obstacles and the triumphs in life, that's what makes you you. Every hurdle that you had to jump over, every hoop that you had to soar through, every door that you had to open or bang and force open,

all give you those notches in your belt to be the champion that you are. So that's my journey. I wouldn't change it because I wouldn't have my kids through that. I wouldn't have my career. I wouldn't have the respect. I wouldn't have my career, I wouldn't have the respect, I wouldn't have the fortitude, and it's all delicious. I'm just so happy that I can be doing what I dreamt about.

Again, you mentioned that I grew up in New York and I used to go to Broadway all the time and I was like, oh, that would be fun to do that. Then to be able to start performing and have parents say, you know what, you're really good, we will support you in this. To have parents that didn't say, get a real job, that's ridiculous.

But that valued the arts, so I could have the training that I did to be able to be successful. I mean, all those factors are so important to success. And there are so many people, and I'm sure you've interviewed many, but there's so many people in this business who did not have parents that believed in them, did not have mentors that guided them. And they might have tremendous success, but have chips on their them and they might have tremendous success but have chips on their shoulders and have issues with substance abuse even though they've got the glory of

the fame and the fortune because they never had somebody said, we believe you knew you can do it. You've got the talent, go for it. And I'm one of those lucky people. I mean, I think we can stop the podcast episode right here. That was just absolutely brilliant. That's everything that I think we can stop the podcast episode right here. That was just absolutely brilliant. That was everything that I think in Champion. You're so right.

I also really admire the fact that you took up the French horn, which is the hardest brass instrument. Well, my brother took up the oboe, so I think we were parallel in our difficulty. I started out with a violin, then switched to flute, and I just loved the sound of the French horn. Actually, my father worked in an elementary school, and I remember there was a black girl that played French horn, and I loved the sound, and I saw her as an example.

That was like, I'm going to pick that. I loved it, and I had wonderful opportunities to play in our orchestra and our concert band and our marching band. I played the melophone in the marching band and our orchestra in, I guess you call it secondary school, but a high school for us. We got a chance to travel the world. So my freshman year, we went to Miami.

Sophomore year, we went to Seekonk, Massachusetts. Junior year we went to Caracas, Venezuela and senior year we were in the Bahamas. So yeah, all that with playing the French horn. I used to play the trumpet at school. Sure. Brass. And the most brass, women in brass. The Devil Wears Prada, playing to sell out crowds. How is it being back on stage playing yet another ice cream magazine editor? Yes, another one. I guess it's just easy casting. Jerry Mitchell called, boy, it's been a couple of years now, and said, listen, we are going to do

Devil Wears Prada for London. You are our first choice. We're coming back to you with an offer, but just want you to know that we're coming, so get ready. And when the offer came through, I loved it, because not only would I get a chance to be creating a role, which is fantastic on the West End, but also revisiting the West End, because in 2020, I was supposed to make my West End debut

in City of Angels. And Josie Work was the director. We were doing the same production that they had done at the Dunmore Warehouse, and it was going to be phenomenal. And we had done, I think, maybe 15 performances before they shut us down because of COVID. So that, I was gutted because not only it's a fantastic show and the creative team was amazing and our cast was extraordinary, but I didn't get a chance to and I lived here for three

months preparing but didn't get a chance to open. So I was so happy when I got the call to come and be part of the West End. And I knew Elton John did the music, Kate Weatherhead had done the book, and Jerry Mitchell who I'd worked with once doing Broadway Bears, but this would be an opportunity to work with Jerry. I knew that was something that I wanted to do, but also being able to create a role is amazing.

I've done that a couple of times, and when you're the first one, it's you're in the books and they always can say, she created it on the West End. You also have the opportunity to make changes. You're working with a script, you're working with raw material, you're working with a song saying,

I want to do this, this works better, this makes more sense, and you get a chance to be part of the creative decisions. So that was another really big factor of jumping in on Devil Wears Prada. I really enjoyed an Instagram reel that you posted, which was your outfit change between scenes, which looked so frenetic and physically challenging.

Up and down the stairs, changing the wardrobe. Yeah. Is it exhausting or is there something about being on stage that keeps it stimulating and fresh or both? Both. It is both. There's nothing like, Jerry Mitchell gave me the best entrance I've ever had in any production in my life. And for those who've seen it, they know that I appear from below For those who've seen it, they know that I appear from below, replicating a lift coming to the office. Or it's the devil coming from the deep, who knows?

But I appear from the bottom of the stage, and when the bell dings and the doors imaginarily open, there's nothing like a full house screaming and applauding. That is very seductive because it's a reflection of, oh my God, they're already ready for what I'm about to do and start as the character. Also, I've arrived and people are so excited. I can see through my glasses, I'm wearing sunnies and I can see people are just ready

to applaud because they know me from Ugly Betty, they know me from Destiny of the Housewives. It's amazing how many people know me from different areas of my career and they're so excited to see me in person. It's great. I thank my team for making it like choreography. We do it seamlessly every night. And it's a lot of fun. So I don't have to go to the gym at all because I have to do all that running around in high heels, eight shows a week.

Well, London is so honored that you're here. So thank you. And I wanted to ask you one question about Miss America. I know you are so much more than what happened to you, but I'm very interested in the shifting cultural context because I've been lucky enough recently to interview a couple of women who faced scandals during the early nineties. And it was Pam Anderson and Monica Lewinsky. And when I was reading your story and reminding myself of what happened to you, it felt very similar. Something that happened without your consent. It was like you were made into the person to blame for that. And I wonder how you feel about it now, looking on from almost, I mean, it's 40 years now

since that happened. How do you feel about? Well, I'm doing a documentary about it. So I mean, and it's in it is a time capsule of what exactly in 1983, 84, what society was like, what the stakes were at the time and creating history and having something that you could not control for sure. And being 20, I was 20 years old when I won. I was 21 when I resigned.

So now I have the lens of having four children, looking at how young and vulnerable and impressionable they are at 20 years old, 19, 21. And then I say, how did I get through it? How did I make it? And it is, of course, because I had a great community, great family, great support, and I also knew that I had a future. My life goal was not to be Miss America. That was part of the journey, which was, you can say happenstance, but it didn't take away my talent.

It didn't take away my drive. It was a huge, huge obstacle, but 10 years later, I made it onto Broadway. Being on radio and being a recording artist, again, took a lot of time, but eventually I got there. Being television and film, again, it took a while, but I got there. So it didn't negate my intellect and it didn't negate my talent. And society has changed in its speed. Not only can you fail, but you fail worldwide and within minutes.

What I went through in 1984, nowadays, again, when a child, when a young adult has some kind of scandal, it happens immediately. And the world knows about it immediately. And that's devastating. And as a parent, it's unimaginable. But that's where our media is now. And you're canceled immediately. And to have the capability and the coping skills to deal with that is extraordinarily tough.

So it's a completely different game. I can't wait to watch the documentary. Before we get onto your failures, one of my favorite revelations in your memoir that you co-wrote with your mother is that she had a grudge list. She had a list of names of people who had done her or you wrong. Do you have a grudge list? I don't.

I remember everything. I have to let it go. I'm certainly not afraid to confront people. And I have done that on several occasions where I've been in rooms and somebody will say, oh, well, you know, so and so said that your single wasn't very great. I go, really? They said that?

Oh, okay, hold on a sec. And then I walk over to that person and then the person will say, she's not going to say anything. And she'll say, oh, yes, she will say something. But I don't let it fester. I understand people are human. Who's losing days? It's you. Whoever said something, whoever did something, they're the ones that have let it go and you're festering and holding on to it and you're losing days. That ability to call it out in the room, is that something you've learned over time

or have you always had that ability? I've always had that ability and I probably for sure get it from my mother. My mother was five feet, tiny little energetic pistol of a lady. She was ruthless, but not that she was rude or it wasn't uncalled for, but if she felt there was injustice, she would absolutely speak up.

I definitely saw her bravery and her courage do that, and I feel like I have the same license to do the same thing and I get paid for it. As these characters because I'm definitely, a lot of people would assume that I've got the wit and the ability to eviscerate somebody through dialogue. I'm a mom of four. I've got a lovely dog that I love.

I mean, I am not Wilhelmina Slater. I am not Miranda Priestly. It's fun to jump into that kind of persona and have that, the power to really say what everyone is thinking at the moment. But personally, I've only done that a few times. Your first failure, and what I love about these failures is that you didn't send me any explanation.

So I'm so curious. Yeah, your first failure, not inviting your dad on a girls' trip to Egypt. Tell me about this. So I love girls' trips, and I have a great group of women that we've been traveling for probably 20 years together all over the world. This was specifically in 2005, we were going to Egypt and my mom was coming and my whole gal group,

and there were probably 14 of us. My dad had never gone to Egypt and he could have easily tagged along. Unfortunately, he ended up dying in 2006. This was the last summer that he was alive and in retrospect, I wish I would have invited him along because he could have done all the amazing cruises down the Nile. The antiquities are incredible. We went inside the pyramid, the culture. He loved history, so listening to all the content that he would have been able to absorb was one of the things

that I wish I just would have had him tag along. All my girls would have loved him because they loved my dad anyway, and I should have just said, have him come. But I didn't, and we had a wonderful time. I love girls' trips. And if you don't have a group of girls, I know you just came back from a lovely opportunity with one of your girlfriends, which is great because, you know, also traveling alone is great and good for you,

but seeing and exploring an adventure with your girlfriends is fantastic. It makes you feel young, it makes you feel connected. You're speaking my language, I completely agree. Didn't you meet one of your husbands there? What? Sorry, it's so cheap being able to say that. Yes, number three, I meant there.

Yes, he was on one of the cruises that I took on the Nile. But yeah, the antiquities, the people are warm and lovely, and I could go back every year. I just wanted to take a moment to tell you about The Reluctant Flirt, the new novel from New York Times bestselling author Jennifer Probst. If you're into contemporary romance with an element of second chance, then this is for you. The plot follows the life of Sierra Lord who flees to New York City to escape her troubles. She reinvents herself as the owner of a trendy boutique in the Outer Banks, and life is good until her ex, Kane, walks back into her life. With sparks flying, sarcastic jabs turning to lingering looks, and a family wedding forcing them into

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A box of fine wines? Yes. Uber Eats can definitely get you that. Get almost, almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now. Alcohol in select markets. Product availability may vary by Regency app for details. And I want to talk more about your dad, Milton. What was he like?

Oh, my dad was incredible. Died at 70 years old, which was way too early and had some complications with his pancreas because of gallstone issue. And just basically was in the Bahamas with my mom at a birthday celebration and felt ill, and went to the hospital and was gone three days later. How awful. Really awful, unexpected,

but teaching was his life. Not only was he a teacher to many, many people, but could do anything. Could take a car apart, put it back together, was a master carpenter and built an addition onto our home, built another home, a vacation, a holiday home that we had in the Poconos, put in a pool. If my mom wanted a greenhouse, he built a greenhouse.

I mean, he would have the summers off because he was a school teacher. So we had a company called Dexterity, and he would build decks in the summertime when he wasn't doing, you know, and did it for fun and was skilled at it. So could sing, could play numerous instruments. So my example of what a man is really

put the pressure on any man who came into my life. And I do feel sorry for anyone that I was married to, because my dad could do it all. It's like, what do you mean you can't fix your car? What do you mean you can't fix the water heater? Because he could literally do everything. And he was faithful to my mother and adored her. They made such a great team together. So my expectations of marriage were really high.

My expectations of what a true man was, was really high. And so I think it would be hard to be married to me, you know, as a man, because I don't wanna say I could be easily disappointed, but I could be easily disappointed. You had expectations and standards and you knew what a good man was. And also I could go to him, my dad was the soft spot.

So my mom was really tough and due to her upbringing, and which we lay out in the book that I wrote with her, you have no idea. But my dad was loving and open. It would be, I would call home from, if I was in college or whatever, and say, hi, can I speak to dad? And my dad would be the one that I could discuss anything without judgment, with loads of patients.

So again, he was almost like a psychologist. They had a big bookshelf that of course that he built as part of their headboard. And he had all kinds of, he would reach me every night from a child to probably when I was about 12 or 13. And we would discuss everything from, you know fairy tales all the way up to at the end, we were he was reading, I'm okay, you're okay and psycho cybernetics to me.

And we would discuss the brain and the makings of psychology together. So that was the kind of dad that I had. Always available, tremendously supportive. If I was in any kind of performance, he would be the loudest one clapping and the last one to stop. And I knew, oh, my dad's out there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What a tribute. Yeah. When you say headboard, do you mean like a bedhead? Yes. Which was a bookcase. It was a bookcase to the ceiling. That's my idea of heaven.

Exactly. Just go like that. Yeah. I'm very aware that you mentioned your book, You Have No Idea That You Co-wrote With Your Mother, but that was published after your father passed. And you are very honest in that book, both of you are. And you write about things that must have been pretty traumatic to relive, the fact that you were sexually assaulted as a 10-year-old, that you had an abortion. Are you glad that that book came out after your father passed? How do you feel he would have responded reading that about you? My mother was very insistent that she,

not insistent but happy that it happened because my dad was so sensitive, I think, and again, as a father, you want to protect your child. So I think it would have been really rough for him to know that that had happened to me and know that I didn't come to them and nothing could have changed. So yeah, I'm happy that he was not there. But I also felt that it was important to talk about all the issues that I brought up in the book because even when it was published, I had friends who came up to me and said, oh my God, the same thing happened to me. There was a point I said, if I hear one more person talking about having to deal with sexual molestation by,

an uncle in their lives, it drove me crazy. So I'm so glad that I was transparent about my life, but also just furious that so many of my friends had to go through the same thing. Yes, it's shocking, isn't it? When you realize how widespread it can be. Yeah. Talking about your book and your expectations of men

brings us onto your second failure, which in your words is not listening to my mom about trusting men. Which in your words is not listening to my mom about trusting men. And I'm very aware that we're talking about this in the aftermath of your mother's passing and I'm so sorry. And I just wanted to offer my sincerest condolences because that was in December. So it was so fresh here just after her 85th birthday. Yeah.

Well, she came to see me and opening night December 1st. And you know, we had the huge party at the British Museum and star studded and and then the next morning, you know, and I knew she had flown in the day before and I knew that she had slowed down because I hadn't seen her. And since I've been over here and we were in Plymouth, you know, out of town the summer before that. So I hadn't seen her and I knew that she had gotten slow, but I thought, well, it must be jet lag. She didn't have an appetite. Well, there's only two days that she was in.

But when she came in the next morning after the Sunday night that we had our premiere, opening night, and Monday she said, how do I get these lashes off? And I looked into her eyes and her eyes were completely yellow. And I said, mom, you're jaundice. We gotta get you to the doctor.

Cause she's like, what? I go, mom, look at your eyes. And she hadn't, I don't know how sick she actually, she was probably not feeling well, had no idea how ill she was. And then got her to the doctor that day. And then they said, your mom needs to be in the hospital the next morning

after the blood work that she had done. And we lost her 25 days after that. Yeah. So at the London Clinic, love them all. Thank you for Professor Patrick Kennedy, the head of liver medicine. I love him. My mother loved him and he did all he could in 25 days to try to at 85 years old,

try to remedy the situation. At that point, there was nothing we could do. In the book, we talk about her background. She grew up in Buffalo, which was a big city in upstate New York, industrial city. And had a lot of, yeah, tough time, not raised by her mother because her mother had three girls

and was seeing my grandfather who wasn't married to her. And a lot of issues, I was seeing my grandfather who wasn't married to her. And a lot of issues, the grandparents ended up taking the three girls to raise them. And my mother didn't even think that they were actually her real grandparents because they didn't look like her father. I mean, who knows?

Back then, people really didn't talk. Talking about nothing was transparent back in the 30s, 40s. You didn't ask questions as a child and you had no idea, but you had a gut feeling. So who knows who raised her, but she had a rough life and made it out of there. Met my dad in college, both of them at music college.

And as she says, you know, got out of there on the first thing smoking. Like as soon as she graduated, she's like, I am out of here. They got married August and she moved to New York. She was 20 and my dad was 24. So she didn't trust many people at all. My dad was completely open and trusting.

My mother didn't trust anyone. You had to prove to her that you were trustworthy. Didn't trust men because she didn't trust anyone. You had to prove to her that you were trustworthy. Didn't trust men because she didn't really have a great example of what a man, a true man would be. And thank God my parents met because my dad was the soft space for her and she needed that because she was, she needed that encouragement, but she needed that place to be completely welcomed. And the more I grew and the more she saw me attract, my body was changing and as a mother you're like,

how do I reign this in? How do I protect this being that I've made and I can see attention? And I was again, naive and trusting. She's like, you can't trust anyone, don't ever take naked pictures. Don't trust. If someone asks you to do something, don't do it.

I wish I would have listened to her. Of course, my gut was saying, don't trust that person, would have listened to her, of course, my gut was saying, don't trust that person, but then your mind says, well, what's the worst thing that could happen? Oh, well, they say that nothing will happen. And that's kind of how I've gotten burned on many occasions, whether it's through relationships,

whether it's through business. I did not tap into my gut and my mom saying, don't do it. Don't do it, it's true business. I did not tap into my gut and my mom's saying, don't do it. Don't do it. It's not safe. And you were speaking earlier about the enormous power of female friendship and this failure specifically pertains to men. Do you think it's mostly men that you haven't been able to trust who have taken advantage of you? I've certainly had my feelings hurt, particularly in high school with women and clicks. Most of that has to do with boys and getting attention.

I didn't know you liked them just because I can't help it if they asked me out and didn't ask you out that those petty high school stuff that he likes you, he doesn't like me, and we don't like you, we're not going to talk to you, all that happened in high school. Which made me lean into my male friendships in high school, especially my musician friendships, especially the brass section. I mean, they are very attractive for us.

So my best male friends are Adam Belanoff, he used to sit to my left, part of the, for the French horn section. And he's one of my best, best friends. When some people were being petty and stupid and alienating me, my guy friends were like, come on. As it pertains to romantic relationships, was there anyone that your mother ever approved of who you were? No. No.

Seriously, that's so funny. No, no, no, never. They were never good enough. My brother is single because the same thing. No one was ever, she didn't know. She did like one of my brother's girlfriends who he ended up getting aged to and then he broke it off. But for me, no, no. I know that she wanted me to be taken care of and I was always, you know, had a career and always

made money and so I think she would have loved to have somebody else kind of absorb some of that burden. But yeah, there was always an issue, always an issue. So do you think knowing you in the last few years when you've been single and empowered and doing so well, was that reassuring for her? Was she? I don't know whether she was pleased by seeing me single. I do have my home and I do have my friends and I do have my career. So I know that she loved what I had achieved. But she does know that I'm a romantic and I like being married. I love having a partner to travel, to explore,

to spend time with, to live life with. But I am friends with all of my, all of them, there's three. I'm friends with all three. I do have children with two, exes that I'm talking about. And there's a reason why I fell in love with them. There's a reason why I had children with them. And there's a reason why I fell in love with them. There's a reason why I had children with them. And there's a reason why I married them. They are good men. And she said the same thing. She said, you know, you do choose good men. Some of them might not be good husbands.

Right. Right. So when you say that one of your failures was not listening to your mom about trusting men, do you actually mean that? If I had listened to her, my, well, again, who knows? I wouldn't have been married to my first husband and not have the three kids that I have, you know? So I understand her being protective, especially now that I know that, God, I was 21 years old when I met my first husband. He was 13 years older than me. No wonder she was so bitchy to him because she thought he was taking advantage of me because I was young at 21 and he was, God, I mean, he was 30, you know, 33 at the time.

So that would have been, you know, scandalous. But so I get her mind frame, her mindset. I get it now. But I wish that I had followed through with some of her warning signals that I did hear in my mind and I just said, no. You must miss her. I do.

But so many people have her and she was talking about girlfriends. She was like Gaga, which my daughter has been calling her Gaga since she was born in 1987. So she was Gaga and she was always invited to all of our girl group stuff. So she was kind of the elder to all of my girlfriends So we all miss her a lot and I constantly get messages on how you doing thinking about your mom today Oh, this is something Gaga would do so she is alive. She is still at the table And I feel definitely her presence and I also it was, I did not miss one show when she was in the hospital every night.

For 25 days I came and I remember one time there was a flu, people getting sick. And I said, oh, I'm on, I was at the hospital. I said, oh, mom, there are six people out today. She said, it doesn't matter. They're there to see you. And that was her mindset. Okay, yeah, they're there to see you. You, you know, so, and I said, okay, you're there to see you." That was her mindset. Okay, yeah. They're there to see you.

I said, okay, you're there to show up. So even on her last days when she was in ICU, I'd say, okay, mom, going to do two shows today. I knew that she knew that that was my job and people were coming and paying good money to see me. She's like, this is your dream, do it. So I never felt guilty for showing up

for the people that paid money for me because that was her dream. She wanted to see me on Broadway too. So I felt that I was almost doing a service to her dream. So I didn't feel like people like, oh my God, don't want to take time off. Said, no, this is my mom's dream. I'm here to service what she dreamed about. You warrior, the two of you. You've spoken so beautifully about what your parents gave

you in terms of your childhood and how they shaped you and they made you feel that you could do the things that you dreamt of. And I wonder now how it feels them not being here physically for you, how it feels being orphaned if that's not too hard. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have my brother, thank God. I have my brother and going through all of the paperwork. When my mom passed,

that was a Saturday morning and we waited for the coroners to come up and they took our way. My brother and I walked back from the London Clinic back to my flat and like five minutes into it. I said, we're orphans now. It's like, yeah, all we have is each other. That was like, okay, we're the next generation to carry on. McPizza bites missing in Italy. Big Rosti stolen from Germany. Teriyaki chicken sandwich

disappears in Japan. An Abysscoth McFlurry blackout in Belgium. Oh, it's just in. We can now confirm the stolen favorites have resurfaced at McDonald's Canada. The international menu heist. Try them all while you can for a limited time in participating McDonald's in Canada. Your final failure actually pertains to your children and it's letting your child go to boarding school. Yeah. Thank you first of all, because this is a really honest failure. It's tough. It must be. Well, A, my parents were public school teachers. So private school was like, everything is available here.

Why would you ever want to go to private school? And this is specifically about my eldest who was at my public school and wanted to go to an all-girl school. So it was a legitimate like, okay, what is the value of an all-girl education? Obviously, you're having issues with co-ed school now. Will that make a difference and will that make you happy?

Will you be able to fit in? Of course, we have a great public school system. So my parents were a little dubious, like do you really have to spend the money to go to an all-girl private school, and is it going to make a difference and will she feel the difference? My eldest went to all-girls Catholic school for two years and loved it, and felt that that was a safe space for her or a comfortable space for her to just thrive.

And then the next step was, well, now I wanna go to boarding school. And it's like, why do you wanna go to boarding school? And the boarding school that she was talking about was one that had a great dance program. So I thought, okay, well, if it's in your concentration and my parents are like, well, why are you going to send her away to boarding school? I'm like, well, she really wants it. And I just wanted to make her happy

and make her thrive as a parent. She went to boarding school and she had a great headmaster first year, and then the headmaster who we loved left, and we had another headmaster who did not work out. The whole vibe of everybody at the boarding school, all the girls drastically changed, and then she wanted to leave to go to another boarding school. We brought her back to a school that was private, but also had boarding, but it was close to our house.

So do we continue to let her board or do we drive her to school? So that dance of trying to make a educational model fit was upsetting for my daughter. In retrospect, I wish I would have said, you know what, you're going to stay in this school, we're going to figure it out, and you're going to stay home because I missed probably one, two, three, four,

five years of her not being at home. Yes, I felt it was a temporary fix. Again, she made some headway being away, but I wish I could have fixed the situation at home where we can evolve in a unit. Because I think it never was quite repaired. I also feel like it's always been like we had our group of the core group and she missed out on so much because she was away. Is this your daughter Jillian? No, no, this is my daughter, Melanie. Your

daughter, Melanie. Okay. And have you subsequently spoken to her about it? Not the regret. But she knows she understands the frustration with where we were and trying to make her happy. And she ended up going back to the school after we took her out to find another spot and she ended up going back with the same headmaster and graduating, getting her degree. And then she ended up going to FIT in the city. So, there was talking about having a group of girls and not having a group of girls, it was hell for her to go in and out and back and forth and stuff.

She does have some fantastic female friends that she's maintained over the years from different schools that she was in. But I feel sorry for her that she didn't have one successful run like the other kids did. Do you feel parental guilt? I do, I do. Had I not been able to afford it, it would have made things like, I pay these taxes, you're going to school just like the rest of the kids. So I had the luxury

at the time to maneuver and try to chase the happiness that we were looking for for her. But I feel sorry for her, what she had to go through. And I wish I could have solved it. But again, as a mother, you're always trying to rescue and heal and solve. And that's what we do as moms. But I feel like I missed out on those years because I never, you know, we never quite had them back

because then she was in college and then she's in the city, in New York City, starting her career in fashion and stuff, and you never have those times all together at home. Even her holidays were, she had a different holiday than the other kids. So we'd go on holiday, and she wasn't available to go on the family holidays.

So it always kind of put her at a disadvantage, because it just reinforced, oh, well, I'm the black, not a black sheep of the family, but oh, I'm not included. Oh, yet another opportunity where I don't get a chance to be with the family. Can I ask, because I know a lot of people who listen to this podcast are parents and they do have children of school age and they are often confronted with this decision of what will be best for their child, what school would be best. What advice would you give to someone in a similar situation now? A, adolescence is tough. Wherever you go, it doesn't matter whether it's boarding school

or private school or public school. You're going to run into issues with just growing and fitting in and what am I doing with my life and what's my purpose and what do people think of me? All that stuff's going to happen no matter where you go. I would say find out really what your child likes and what their skill set is and what they're good at and let them find their tribe because they will. What do you think is probably an impossible question, but what do you think is the most important thing that being a parent yourself has taught you? Listen to your child and watch what makes them tick and what excites them and just amplify

that. I mean, my grandson is three years old. I love cars, my son loves cars, and this is Lion Babe's son, my middle daughter, and he loves to move. And I put him on my, when he was one and a half, two, I had a backpack and he would love to just walk on the backpack and explore,

and I'd put his little visor down. As long as we're moving, I would have my iPhone on with Jungle Book theme song going, and he loved to move. I would put him in a stroller as long as he loved to move. If he's in a car, he loves to move. Right now, we do FaceTime, and I put my phone outside my window,

and he sees double decker bus. Look at those, look at the red bus and he's like, look at the bus. Just dig in to tap into what excites them. You mentioned Lion Babe and that your daughter Jillian is one half of Lion Babe and you recently shared the stage with her at Mighty Hoop Club. Is it kind of amazing sharing the stage with your daughter? Well, it happened first when she finished.

She was at new school in the city and graduated college, and she had a liberal arts degree with a minor in dance, and I had a gig in Japan. She said, I want to go. I said, well, if you want to go, you learn all my music, and you can sing background with me. She learned all the music that I was going to do for the set, and she did Tokyo and Osaka with me.

She toured with me for two years. While she was sorting out her own career, she started writing music and she ended up getting signed to Polydor UK. 2015, she ended up breaking here in London with her music. It was great to see her take the skills that she learned about hearing her sound and warming up but also taking it to a level where she's seen, she's been, all my kids have been on movie sets,

on television lots with me, in trailers, on tour buses. So they know how hard I work. But they also know all the variety of things that are available to do. So to see her thrive, to see her have her own fan base, and then to say, mom, can you, we've got some time in my set. Can you come out and maybe we can do BOP? You don't have to, but it would be fun if you did,

meaning dot, dot, dot, please can you do it? So I jumped in and we did BOP together. So to see her thrive and to see the amount of people that love her music and see how hard she works and see that she's a trained dancer. So she'll do like a double, triple spin and then kick her leg up and people are like, oh my God, she's really good. She's not just wiggling her behind.

She is actually a trained dancer. That's what I love. And she always dances more when she knows that I'm watching. I love that you're like Beyonce in Blue Ivy. Exactly. Drag him out. Oh, Vanessa, this has been such a joy. I wonder if I could end. I'm very aware that I haven't asked you about save the best for last. And I feel like there are going to be people listening saying why haven't you asked her? But I wonder if I could ask you if you feel that that's

kind of been a metaphor for your life, that you are saving the best for last, that this time in your life feels so creative and fulfilled. I hope it's not over for a long time. So I feel there's so much more to do and see and travel to and experience and conquer and create. So I just think this is, I'm loving my 60s. 50s was rough. I mean, I think also physically 50s are going through menopause and not being able to

control your body is just was the worst. So I'm loving 60s. But listening to back in the day, listening to that demo on a cassette with piano and Wendy Wallman singing the song and just trusting like, this is a great song. I can't get the melody out of my mind. It's haunting me.

But having no idea how big an impact that song would make is kind of what life is all about. It's like, ah, let's trust it. I love it. Let's see if other people do. Vanessa Williams, thank you so much for coming on How to Fail. Thank you. It's been a pleasure. Please do follow How to Fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.