How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - Vogue Williams - ‘I love therapy’

Episode Date: June 19, 2024

Ugh I just adore this woman. I had a girl crush on her from afar and recently was lucky enough to meet her properly when she interviewed me on tour. Let me tell you that Vogue Williams is EVEN BETTER in person than she is on screen or in our ears. You’ll know her as one half of one of the UK’s most downloaded and hilarious podcasts - My Therapist Ghosted Me - and as the star of several TV shows, including Channel 4’s The Jump where she met her now husband, Spencer Matthews. The couple have three young children, and a very entertaining podcast of their own. But it almost didn’t turn out this way - she started out pursuing a career in…wait for it…the building industry.  She joins me to talk about this, as well as being ‘a rotten egg’ at school, how she deals with anxiety, why Spencer would have lost her if he hadn’t given up drinking and - in a really memorable conversation - her failures in friendship. I loved talking to Vogue, but then I always do. She’s so smart and funny and a woman’s woman to her core. As always, I’m desperate to hear about your failures. Every week, my guest and I choose a selection to read out and answer on our special subscription offering, Failing with Friends. We’ll endeavour to give you advice, wisdom, some laughs and much, much more. Have something to share of your own? I'd love to hear from you! Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com Production & Post Production Manager: Lily Hambly Studio and Mix Engineer: Gulliver Tickell and Josh Gibbs Producer: Hannah Talbot Executive Producer: Carly Maile Head of Marketing: Kieran Lancini How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by card, other conditions apply. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with me, Elizabeth Day. This podcast puts failure in the spotlight and asks us what we learn from the moments in life that don't go according to plan. Vogue Williams is one of the UK's most successful and prolific podcasters and TV presenters, but it almost didn't turn out that way. She grew up in Dublin, the youngest of three siblings. Her mother, Sandra, was an air hostess

who's now a style influencer. And Williams' dad was a former car salesman, Freddie. Williams herself thought she'd be pursuing a career in the building industry. She completed a degree in construction design and management before attending the Dublin Institute of Technology to study quantity surveying. But building's loss is broadcasting's gain. An appearance on a reality TV show following the lives of young Dublin socialites led to further on-screen offers. Viewers gravitated to her warm personality and her sense of humour, but there was grit there too. In 2015, Williams won Bear Grylls' Mission Survive, beating former Olympian Dame Kenny Holmes and England rugby ace Mike Tindall to the TV prize. She met her future

husband, Spencer Matthews, while competing in Channel 4's The Jump. The couple now have three young children. As a podcaster, Williams is behind the chart-topping My Therapist Ghosted Me, co-hosted with her friend and comedian, Joanne McNally. She's also behind Spencer in Vogue and the newly launched The Apple and the Tree, where a parent and their adult child get to ask each other about the parts of their history they've never shared. It's a really raw thing to be able to ask about something you've always wanted to talk to your family about, Williams says, but you never have. Every single family, including mine, has those things they don't discuss. Vogue Williams, welcome to How to Veil.

Thank you for having me. That was quite hard keeping a straight face, only because we have been howling hysterically before recording. Because I love every single minute in your company and you make me laugh so much. I love hanging out with you so much. I'm so excited to be here. Ditto.

It's also weird referring to you as Williams, but it's like my intro style is to use a surname, but it's so strange calling you Williams. There's no Williams. I actually have three surnames. Show off. Yeah, I know. When I go to the doctor, I'm like, God, which one was it now? Because I'm Matthews because Penny tried to convince me and I don't, I want to be Williams. Yes. But then my stepdad, when we were growing up, wanted me to have his second name. So legally I had to change my second name to Wilson, but I always wanted to be Williams, which was my original name. So that's why I always use Williams.

Huh. Well, now we've already gone off on a tangent. So this is what this podcast is going to be. And I'm delighted about it. The apple and the tree sounds totally amazing because I'm also super interested in family histories and childhoods and how it shapes us. It is like, it was so fascinating to hear everyone's different stories as well, because like, I'd love to do something like that in my family, but I just know I'd never do it. I think it takes a lot of courage. For some of the stories that they were telling, like the most recent one, Lois. Oh my God, listening to her childhood growing up and what her mother did and her being able to actually be friends with her mother after her mother essentially tried to kill her in a way. And there's so many different stories. And we met Alex, who has motor neurons disease,

and that terrifies me. seeing him talk about it and how positive he is about it and how amazing his mom is with him and having that conversation around his illness but not just that about when he came out and it's it was really heartwarming like loads of really sad stories but like really heartwarming and just lovely to hear. I'm really interested that you say you wouldn't have a conversation like this with your family because the public perception of you is as someone who shares and is very funny, but also very moving in your sharing. You share your life with Spencer, your husband, you share your life with your best friend, Joanne. So why would you not have the conversation with your family? I'd say I would have the conversation, but I wouldn't say my family would have the conversation.

with your family? I'd say I would have the conversation, but I wouldn't say my family would have the conversation. So I would be happy. And I know that we nearly touched on some things a while ago and then it was like, no, I'm not talking about it. And that was just kind of it. And like, I've kind of resigned myself to the fact that there are some things that will always be left unsaid in our family. And it's not like they're hugely bad things, but they're things that probably could do with a conversation but like my family are also my best friends so it's not like I'm going to be upset or not talking to them because we haven't had that conversation. I actually feel bad moving to this now because it goes really deep but I'm going to ask anyway your dad died in 2010 and I wonder if you feel that you wish you could have had some conversations with him.

I think my dad was like, he was so much fun. We used to have such a laugh and we used to take complete advantage of the fact that he would just kind of let us do anything. But he was sick since I was 12. So I was always used to him being unwell on and off. And I suppose he wasn't very serious. We wouldn't get into really deep conversations. Do I probably wish I'd said more to him? In a way I do. But then when someone's going in for a serious operation, you don't want to sit there and be like, just so you know, I really love you.

And then they're like, why are you saying that to me? I'm absolutely terrified. So you don't want to scare somebody either. You want to just be like, you're fine. I'm going to see when you get out, you're going to be totally fine. And like he knew I loved him. I spent a lot of time with him. We were really, really close, particularly in our later life. For me, he was a great dad. I wouldn't say he was a great husband to my mom, but I don't know what else I would have

said to him at that age because he died when I was in my twenties. I don't think that you're mature enough to really think, right, I need to sit down and have a deep, proper conversation with someone. But I also don't, I don't think that you should do that when someone's, when, when someone is unwell, because I think it would make them nervous. I think you have to be very careful around it. No one wants to think that they're going to die. So I, I do make a conscious effort, even with my mum and stuff like that, to always be like, love you, see you later. Or like. And I chat to her all the time. So in that sense, I don't really regret that. I think you're a very strong person. Do you think you're strong?

I do think I'm strong. Yeah. In a lot of ways, I'm not. I'm like anyone else. But I think I'm strong for my family and my family and friends are very, very important to me. And I would always go out of my way to be strong for all of them. But sometimes I don't feel strong. Like I've gone through things where I don't feel strong. Like we spoke about divorce, you know, yourself, you go through something like that and you're just like, God, this is just a disaster. And you don't feel as strong as you could do. But then when you come out of it, you're like, okay, I got through that. Like I can get kind of through most things. Yeah. I've read somewhere that when you went through a divorce and again, I can relate to this, it was when your anxiety was at its highest.

Yeah. I nearly was going to have anxiety as a fail. Interesting. Yeah. I was nearly, and then I was like, do you know what? No, because I kind of feel like it's, it's, it's a part of my life. It will always be a part of my life, but it's something that I do have under control. But when I was going through all that, that's when it kind of peaked. And that's when I really had to look at it and be like, OK, how do I figure this out? Because I was waking up at like one o'clock in the morning and then not being able to sleep again. And then you start stressing about the fact that you're not sleeping, which makes your anxiety worse.

So then the next day you're not only exhausted, but you're just an anxious wreck. So I figured out ways to kind of deal with this and uh and that's why I don't think it's a fail anymore and the ways that you have to deal with it include therapy love therapy I do I do isn't it lovely it's the best I feel so sorry for the therapist I like just rant for ages about all my problems and I'm like bye have a lovely weekend he's always on holidays now my therapist he. He goes away a lot. I'd say he needs it. Exercise works for me. I know when I drink, I like, I am violently anxious the next day, like seriously fearful. And I know that that's a real trigger for me. So I try not to drink too much.

And I do love a beta blocker. And I don't know if you're supposed to say things like that, but I love having anxiety medications just in my cupboard just in case. And I don't take them very often. I definitely don't take them daily. But like there was a point when I was taking them daily and they really helped me just focus more on what the problem was without having all the physical symptoms of anxiety. It just helped me to just kind of coast through. And they were never something that I wanted to be on forever. But I do like knowing that I have them within reach if I need

them. No, but I actually think it's really good that you have spoken about medication because unfairly, sometimes it has a stigma. And actually medication, if it is prescribed by a medical professional and you've sought the advice of a doctor it can be so helpful you know if you are confronted with a chemical imbalance it is completely acceptable and advised to take medication so it completely makes sense and you mentioned sleep there this is another thing we have in common okay no don't get me started on sleep okay seven hours 15 oh my gosh I love sleep so much so much and I know that you and Spencer track your sleep and so do me and Justin. And you wake up in the morning and the first thing is what you get.

100%. Did it this morning. What did you get? I'm generally, I think this morning I got 96. Wow. Now you and Spencer are competitive. Yeah. Who wins most of the time? He likes to think he wins. like he's better at things.

And this is going to be a controversial thing to say. I will never be as good at running as him because I just won't. I just don't have the same physical makeup as him to be able to run the way he does. He tried to teach me how to run better. And I did like a 3k the other day, and I did it in five and a half minute pace, which is slow for him. And I went home and I was like, I feel like I'm going to faint. I had to get in the bath. I had to then like sit down and try and eat. I was like, not in a good way, but we are quite competitive, but I win on things like tidiness, things that are important to me. I win on organization and sleep. You mentioned that Spencer's running and he is attempting this world record, which is 30 marathons in 30 days in the desert. Yeah, at 45 degrees heat. How do you cope with

Spencer's constant need to put himself through these kind of physical challenges? I don't really understand it, but when he comes back, he's slightly changed all the time. So he did the Marathon de Sable and he did come back and he just has kind of a different mind frame around things for a while. Obviously he settles back into normality, but there's always something that will slightly change him on these runs. And he did the Jungle Ultra. And then this for him is like a world record. He really wants to do it. He's doing it for Make Some Noise, which is an amazing charity. these runs and he did the Jungle Ultra and then this for him is like a world record he really wants to do it he's doing it for Make Some Noise which is an amazing charity so he's trying to make

loads and loads of money for that and he just loves it I don't understand it he's trying to get me to do 35k's so I do and I'm like that's a bit hard for me now 5k a day for 30 days but it's it's a lot like it's a lot of like he's away then for 40 days and I'm at home with the kids for 40 days and I will never have a lion in those 40 days and I'm doing bedtimes for 40 nights. So it's tough for all of us. Not as tough as it is for him, but I think it's an amazing thing to do, but an amazing way to be able to push your body because I genuinely doubt in my whole lifetime I will ever do a marathon and he's doing 30 in 30 days it's wild and in a way it's sort of an extension of how you met because you met on this show the jump now sadly defunct

because of so many injuries and you injured yourself and had to pull out well they were really good they paid for everything when I did my knee and they paid for the operation. They paid for my physio. I would do the jump in a heartbeat if it came back. It is so much fun. It looks terrifying. The jump was terrifying. I used to cry on the top of it and they'd be like, you're fine. And I'd be like, go. And it was amazing that you were learning all these things that you'd never do. Like, if you can do a TV show where you get to learn these incredible things, I always say jump at the chance of it. It's just... Yeah, we met on that show.

How cringe. For anyone who hasn't seen it, it's a ski jump. And celebrities learn how to ski jump. And at the time that you met... So Spencer has been on How to Fail before. It was only because you were harder to get. That's the only reason for the order and he spoke about his relationship with alcohol and one of the things that he said was

that when he met you he had an unhealthy relationship with alcohol he subsequently realized and he talked about your wedding and how he was just completely out of it and he realized that he needed to change or he would lose you yeah Yeah. How aware of that were you? I'm usually like, there's a lot of drinking around me. My dad was a very heavy drinker. I have lots of friends that are heavy drinkers. It's just kind of been a consistency in my life for my whole life. So like I'm used to it. And, uh, and with him at the start, I was kind of used to it. And then I was like, actually, I don't, I'm not, I'm not doing that again. Like, I don't want to have that. start, I was kind of used to it. And then I was like, actually, I don't, I'm not, I'm not doing that again. Like, I don't want to have that. And I think with himself, when he decided, because you

can't make somebody stop drinking, you just can't, it has to be up to that person. It's, it's, you can't force somebody to change in that way. And I think he decided himself that he was seeing me, although I read this article, he did the podcast and he was like, yeah, Vogue and I used to binge drink three times a week. I was like, I have never binged drink three times a week. It makes me sound so bad. I'm a binge drinker because I don't really like the taste of alcohol. So if you see me drinking alcohol, I'm drinking it for one reason and that's to get drunk, but I don't drink very often. But with him, I think he was watching me working and I was kind of like getting really cool jobs and doing better and better things. And he was just kind of

not really being very productive. And then he decided himself to give up drinking. And as soon as he did that, he just achieved so much more. And he just felt like his career has completely changed since he did that. His life has completely changed. And he's gotten himself to a point now, which I know is impossible for everyone, where he can have the odd drink sometimes. And I think it's quite helpful that I don't want to drink all the time. We never have drink in the house. And that's not because we're scared we'll drink it.

We just never want it. So that kind of, he did that for himself. And I think that that was quite an amazing thing to do. But like, I just, I love drinking and I hate drinking because it makes me just feel so awful the next day. And some people don't get that. So I'd say, we were only speaking about this yesterday, and I'd say at some point in our lives, we probably will never drink. Eventually we'll get to that point because it just doesn't serve us. Do you think he was right that he would have lost you had he carried on down that path?

I think the way he was drinking, yeah, definitely. Because I think he kind of, like with my dad and stuff, like although he was a heavy drinker, he wasn't a drinker. Like he wouldn't wake up in the morning and drink, but like I'd know where he was at five o'clock at night. He'd always be in the pub every single day without fail. And drinking was a huge part of his life. But drinking was a huge part of his life. But drinking was a huge

part of kind of our lives growing up with everybody around us kind of thing. But I think with Spenny, it was unusual for him to be drinking that much because his parents aren't big drinkers. His brother isn't a big drinker. It was just him. I think that that level of drinking is too much for anyone to be able to be productive or to have a family or to just, like, it'd be very difficult for him to have achieved anything had he kept up that level of drinking. Your first failure is your failure at school. You describe yourself as a rotten egg at school. Why were you so rotten? A rotten egg. I didn't realize I was a rotten egg, but I was. I just took advantage of the system a lot.

I physically couldn't stop talking. Like I couldn't stop. And like, it's fine if I want to sit and talk to myself, but I'd be interrupting everybody around me. And I had a great time. But like the teachers just got to a point and they were like, you have to stop. Like I was always in trouble.

I was always disrupting other people. I could never pay attention. And although I had a great time, I kind of feel bad. Like my auntie, she was a teacher in the school. So she was my art teacher and she was our year ahead. And this is when I had gotten kicked out of my house because my mom was just like over it. Yeah. So I lived with my dad.

And when I was in school, I used to write my own notes and I'd learn my dad's Yeah. So I lived with my dad. And when I was in school, I used to write my own notes and I'd learn my dad's signature. So I'd do my dad's signature. And off I'd go, just walking out the school. And my aunt, she would run after me

and she was like, folk, you're not, stop doing this. And I'd be like, no, Naomi, my dad signed this note. So I'm sorry, but I'm leaving now.

I have somewhere to be. And I'd ring my dad and I'd be like, if you don't, if you don't say that you wrote that note, that's it. I'm out of school. And so he wouldn't do it. And it was so

mean of me because I'm not a bad person, but I just, I just, during school, I just was so, it was so about fun. It wasn't about anything else. And I kind of wish I'd put my head down a little bit more because I did do construction degrees, but I wanted to do architecture. So I never got architecture. And I'd say if I just put a little bit of work in, I could have gotten it. And what do you think it was? Were your siblings the same? Amber, my sister, was an absolute nightmare as well. She actually got asked to leave the school.

So she was slightly worse than me. It was just Amber and I were just messers. We just were always having fun. We just, I probably was a bit worse than me. It was just, Amber and I were just messers. We just were always having fun. We just, I probably was a bit worse than her in school. What was the worst thing that you did? I was never like horrific. Like I remember a girl in art class, in my auntie's art class, her and my friend, there were two friends of mine and they were having a fight. And she picked up a tin of silver paint, like a big tin that you would paint like a wall with and she dumped it over this girl's head

like this I never did anything like that but it was just the it was the passing notes all the time it was like I'd say I I'd say I brought like most of my friends grades down as well as my own I kind of I hope they're all doing what they want in life and it's not because of me. I'd say like I got suspended a couple of times. It was mainly for just constantly interrupting people and disturbing people. But I got suspended the first time for two days and I was in so much trouble for that because I was living with my mom. The second time I was suspended for a week. So I had a great that because I was living with my mom. The second time I was suspended for a week. So I had a great time because I was living with my dad.

So let's go back a bit. So what's going on when you start being overly chatty and disobedient at school? Yeah. What is going on at home? Are your parents still together at the point? No. So my parents broke up when I was around seven. So my stepdad has been my stepdad since I was like eight or nine or something like that. So he's very much feels

like a dad to me. What was it like when your parents was up? I don't remember it ever being like that bad. I mean, there were parts of it that were difficult. Like I remember, I don't, I doubt they still do this now, but I remember we had to live with my dad for three weeks in our house without my mum when we were very young and then live with my mum in the house for three weeks without my dad to decide who we were going to live with. And we were like, I was like seven at the time. So like to just be not see your mum even for that amount of time,

I'd say it was difficult when I was that age, but I never remember. I remember having a nice childhood. Spencer thinks my childhood is insane and he wonders how I'm still so normal, but I don't remember it being that insane. I suppose it was hard in the sense that my parents really disliked each other to the point where we couldn't, like, I couldn't mention my dad's name at home. They just didn't, they did not get on. I'd say he was very difficult to be married to. In complete contrast to my stepdad, who is like the best husband to my mom and always has been.

Like, he still brings her breakfast in bed. And like, if they're having a fight, my mom's like, that's it. I don't want breakfast in bed. As if it's a threat. I'd say he's thrilled he doesn't take off. But their relationship is amazing. And I think having the stability of him was really great. So are you bracing yourself for when your children become teenagers? I'm hoping, because I've heard now, because Penny has his clean coat company, the non-alcoholic company. And there's loads of surveys done where kids aren't drinking anymore. They're not into it. So I'm hoping that my kids

will be part of that because I had my first drink when I was like 13. A bottle of cider, thinking I was really drunk. And then like from then me and my friends would sneak out and drink all the time. So I'm hoping they don't do that and give me an easier time. But I think it's going to go full circle though because at the moment people look like younger people are very well behaved and clean living but the 90s are coming back with a vengeance and by the time that you're three teenagers they'll be smoking more bralights and no I'm doing I don't want them to do what I did they're saying that like I did lots of stuff but what? I feel so lucky that I did it all when I was like early twenties. There was no real social media around.

Like, and so I got away with it. Thank God. Do you think you're strict as a parent? I'd be more strict than Spencer. My parents were really strict. So Neil, my stepdad was super strict. I was telling him, my friend, Joanna's story about him the other day. Cause we used to live, he came from, like he had no money growing up.

He came from tenement flats. And so he very much wanted us to work for what we got. And like, we were very lucky. He did really well in business and we lived in this big house and there was a swimming pool. So he was like, this is, you don't need to be going out with your friends all the time you should be here enjoying this and and like if we ever asked I remember I asked for a pair of jeans that my friend had and they were like yeah yeah no problem and then two days later I had a job in the shop up the road so I had to work for what I have but like he I was telling Joanna that on the weekends when people used to be allowed sleeping and stuff we'd

get like there would be phones in our rooms and it'd be a speaker system and he'd ring us at seven in the morning he'd be like Amber you're on the kitchen folk you're on the stairs Frederick you're on the cars so we'd have to get up and I'd have to hoover all the stairs Amber would have to clean the kitchen Frederick would go out and do the cars and then we could go and like have our day but he was like you have to work to live here that's amazing but no wonder school then was like a holiday for you like when you get to school you can relax i was free yeah now i'm very interested in this because i'm a step mother yeah and it's a very difficult role being a step parent definitely so when he came on the scene was he was he good at it immediately like how how did he manage it i still ask him that

question today i say say, how? Like, that shows how much he must have loved my mother. Because taking on three young kids, when he hadn't had his own child yet. So him and my mum had Alexander, my brother, who currently lives with me. And to be able to take on three kids, and especially when myself and Amber were like, growing up, like, we were were just really like, just, we were a lot. And he really tried, like, I remember he tried to come in and read Amber and I, The Hobbit. I don't remember anyone reading us a book. And he came in and he was like trying to read us The Hobbit and we had two single beds and we were just screaming and just jumping from bed to bed. single beds and we were just screaming and just jumping from bed to bed to bed. He was like,

no, I'm not doing that again. So he really did try. And he took us like, he took us to this like ski slope and like, he'd always do nice fun things with us. And he really made an effort. And I think that although he was strict, I'm so appreciative of him being like that because like, I really, I needed it. I needed somebody to just like pull the reins in a bit with me and just make sure that I just did what I needed to do. Before we get on to your second failure I forgot to mention that your mother threw you out of home age 17. Yeah. Because you were so bad at school was that why? It was because well it was after this I think it was the second time I got suspended and she was like, I just can't. As I said, I was taking advantage of the fact that I had like a divided home.

So my mum would say, you're not allowed to go and do that. And I'd be like, okay, I'm going to Dad's this weekend. And she knew what I was doing. And I'd go and like, I went to a festival once when I was like 15 because I was like, going to Dad's this weekend. And then I was like to my dad, I'm going to stay in Sarah's house. Bye. And because they wouldn't speak to each other because they had a bad relationship. They didn't speak to each other.

I once went on holiday with my friend Sarah. I think we were 16. We went to Ben and Medina. I know I'm going to sound like a bad person. For how long? For five days or something. What? And I stole money off my dad to call Vogue.

In a way though, I think that he would have loved that. He must have known, like it was large quantities. Were you called Vogue after the magazine? My mom likes to strongly deny that. But I was like, okay, where did you hear the name then? And she said, she said, oh, I was in the shop one day and I heard a woman say, oh, I'm going to call her Vogue. And I was like, that is so made up, mom. I'm like, you obviously heard to call her Vogue and I was like that is so made up mum I'm like you obviously heard someone talking about Vogue magazine or something but it was around the time of the

Madonna song as well and when I was growing up my mum was like the magazine wasn't out then and so I used to go around telling people no the magazine wasn't out then and it clearly was it must have been after the magazine I mean there were also Vogue cigarettes so maybe it was after them yeah well they're only new and there's Vogue mean, there were also Vogue cigarettes, so maybe it was after that. Yeah, well, they're only new. And there's Vogue toilets. You can get Vogue toilets now. Yeah. And sinks.

Is this one of your brand partnerships? They haven't been in touch yet, but I'm more than happy to work with them. Only a matter of time. Hi, I'm Matt Lewis, historian and host of a new chapter of Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit. Join me and world-leading experts every week as we explore the incredible real-life history that inspires the locations, the characters, history that inspires the locations, the characters, and the storylines of Assassin's Creed.

Listen and follow Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts. Peyton, it's happening. We're finally being recognized for being very online. It's about damn time. I mean, it's hard work being this opinionated. And correct. You're such a Leo. All the time. So if you're looking for a home for your worst opinions, if you're a hater first and a lover of pop culture second, then join me, Hunter Harris, and me, Peyton Dix, the host of Wondery's newest podcast, Let Me Say This. As beacons of truth and connoisseurs of mess, we are scouring the depths of the internet so you don't have to. We're obviously talking about the biggest gossip

and celebrity news. Like, it's not a question of if Drake got his body done, but when. You are so messy for that, but we will be giving you the B-sides. Don't you worry. The deep cuts, the niche, the obscure. Like that one photo of Nicole Kidman

after she finalized her divorce from Tom Cruise. Mother. A mother to many. Follow Let Me Say This on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new episodes on YouTube or listen to Let Me Say This ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Your second failure is a failed career in the building industry. Yeah. Which this is, I think, one of my favourite facts about you.

So random. So you went to Aberdeen and what did you study? Construction Design and Management in Robert Gordon University. Aberdeen is so much crack if you're a student. Oh my God. Pound vodka mix. Like we had a student. Oh my God. Pound vodka mix. Like we had a ball, but on my course, so my sister, my sister was like a permanent college student. So her and my brother were over there as well.

And so she, but Amber's course was arts or something. So she honestly had like two hours a week sometimes. I was nine to five every day in this building course. Like we were doing building law and I actually really enjoyed it. Like I loved learning about all of course. Like we were doing building law and I actually really enjoyed it. Like I loved learning about all of it. Like I still have this obsession with bridges. I'm just fascinated by them and their construction, the engineering of them, like all of that kind of thing. I know it's really weird. I love, I love architecture books. I love anything to do with interior. So for me, although I don't actually do anything with that degree currently, it was such a great thing to learn. And I don't think I was ready to just go out into

the world and get a job yet because I was pretty immature for my age still then. I had a bit of growing up to do. And I always wanted to do a job within entertainment, but I always wanted to do like a job in TV. I always wanted to be a presenter, but my stepdad was, it was so out of his mind frame. He didn't have a clue how he would even like help me in that or anything like that. So he was really quite against me doing that without having a degree or something behind me. So for him, it was really important for me to do that first. What's your favorite bridge in the world? Do you know what I'm going to say?

It's going to sound really boring but it's because I live near it as well. The Albert Bridge. So beautiful. It's so gorgeous and when it lights up at night and I love all the pastel colours on it but it's like

the San Francisco like the Golden Gate Bridge is really it's an incredible structure and I love loads of different facts about that like they start painting it at one side

they get to the other and then they just go back again. So they're just going back and forth and back and forth and just painting the bridge the entire time. It's mental. So then after that degree, you do quantity surveying. So that degree, construction design and management was the first one. And I stopped after three years. And then I went and worked on a construction site here in London. What was that like? Then I went and worked on a construction site here in London. What was that like?

So it's terrible really, because I went for this job because I really wanted to do my placement in London because I was like, that would be so much fun to live in London. And I went and it was for weeks who were still, they're still a company now. And I went and there was like two and a half, three thousand people going for this job because it was, there were very few placements. I went in and I met the guy and he was like, now, you know, this is, this is for FF&E. And I was like, I love FF&E. That is so perfect for me. I love it so much. I left, hadn't got a clue what FF&E was. Fixtures, fittings and electrical. But I didn't have a clue. I got the job in the end. I still remember my boss, Rabelle. He was really, really nice. So I got the job. I was the only woman on site. They got me my own hard hat. I had my own,

I got to choose my own steel cap boots, all that kind of stuff. And they sent me out one day and I was basically going around all the toilets measuring where the sinks and the toilets would go. I'd never measured anything before. Like I just hadn't, we hadn't done that in uni. So I came back with all these measurements and he was like, what are these? He's like, have you never measured? I was like, no, I haven't. So he had to sit with me. He must've been like, what have I hired? But I actually loved it. And I got on really well with everybody on the site. I did get locked in a digger one time as a joke. But then at the end of it, I asked for a bell. I was like, Anna, would you give me a job?

And he was like, no. And I was like, good, because I don't want to work here. But like, we had a really nice relationship. But we both knew that I just, I wouldn't be a side engineer in my lifetime. But I had a really good time. But again, I was in London. So like, most Mondays, I'd be like, oh, I'm sick again. Because I would have just gone out all weekend.

Did you experience any sexism? No, but what I did find with myself was that I had to be, I felt like I needed to be like really assertive with my authority on the side because people were coming in and I was the, I was basically going through all the safety briefing with them and I would go around and if I saw someone had a hard hat, I'd be like, you need to put your hard hat on. I'm just trying to be like more assertive, but I actually didn't know. Nobody was someone without a hard hat, I'd be like, you need to put your hard hat on. I'm just trying to be like more assertive. But I actually didn't. No, nobody was like that.

No wolf whistles, nothing. Maybe I wasn't looking good back in the day. I very much doubt that. But do you find, did you have to pretend to be confident and pretend to be more assertive than you felt? Definitely. And I felt like when I did, I would say I felt that more when I was doing my degree. So there was me and one other girl, two other girls on the first degree. And it was a chorus of like 300 people or something. So it was literally three girls. And I felt like there

was a couple of guys there that like were quite rude and just felt like that it wasn't a place that a woman should be. But then strangely enough, the second degree I did, there was a girl on my course and she was really mean to me. And I couldn't understand why, but it was like, I had like, it was her kind of thing. And I'd come in as a new girl. Cause I came in to second year. Cause I had that other degree. I could go straight to second year and she was just awful to me. It was the only time I can kind of remember feeling like slightly bullied as well. I was like, this is really strange. I don't like you. Do you think, I know that you've chosen this as a failure, but actually it sounds like it taught you so much. And I wonder if that experience of having to deal with being in a minority in terms of gender, being bullied by a woman who possibly felt threatened by your appearance on the course, and then having to be assertive on the building site. Do you think all of those

skills have stood you in good stead in terms of podcasting, where you have to appear quite confident to put your voice out there, but also being married to Spencer? All the tough times in my life have made it easier to be married to him. I would say, but when I was thinking of fails for this, I was like, actually, I think instead of thinking of fails as a bad thing, they really can be a good thing. So although I failed at like, at those courses, because I never really got a job within the industry and I certainly wouldn't have gotten one weeks. I think that like everything that they set you up for more things, as you're saying. So like, even though it would have been a failure, like you move on to something else. And actually now that you said that even about divorce, like if that hadn't happened, like I

probably wouldn't have done the jump and I probably wouldn't have met Spencer where I had my kids. And it really does set you up for that. And I feel like at some stage of my life I might do something around the construction industry because I just I love it I think it's really fascinating I'm probably more into interiors and stuff now but like I'd love to build my own house one day and just be like across all of that your final failure and you know this is speaks directly to my interests your final failure is friendship failure yes why and you know this speaks directly to my interests, your final failure is friendship failure. Yes. Why did you choose this? This is because of you. It is. So I read your book. I loved it. Friendaholic. And I think that anyone who has read it, it touches a nerve with everyone because it's like, it makes you just see so much of

yourself within what you're saying about your friends. And I really, when I was reading it, I was like, God, I'm so lucky to have so many great friends, but I really feel like I'm not being a good friend to them. And because of you, I just went to a baby shower in Leeds last week, which I would have said no to, but I had, so it's one of my really close friends from home. And she's having a baby. She lives in Leeds. And like, I've never made the effort to go and even see her in Leeds.

And I'm only in London. And I was like, no, I'm going to do it. Because after reading your book, I was like, I'm being such a bad friend. And I had such a great time. And loads of my friends had come over from Dublin. And it was really nice. And now I've said yes to two weddings. You've got me really busy.

But I think. I'm sorry, but also I'm so proud of you I know it's so good to be because I think that you can really take your friends for granted especially if they've been your friends for like I've got like some of my best friends are my friends since I was 12 they're probably my longest friends and then like I'm lucky with Joanne Joanne and I have have been friends since I am like 18, I think. And we spend time together because we have our podcast together. So that's how we kind of see each other. But even with the two of us, we're kind of like, right, we need to start like doing fun things together. Can't just be about work. So we were out last night and tonight we're going to Magic Mike.

Fun. I know, I can't wait. But I think friendships do feel like a failure to me because I haven't put them first definitely in the last like six years since I've had kids. I think when I had kids, it was family, work, and then friendships like in and around it sometimes. And now I'm trying to just have better friendships and like look after the friends that I have because they're so important to me. Even like we went on holidays at Easter and we had like one group of friends the first week and another group of friends the second week. And it was really nice to just get to spend time with people like that. But it is hard to find time for friends, but it's so important because

they're the ones that they'll be your constant in your life forever if you nurture them. And that was actually down to your book. Oh, thank you so much for saying that. And in a sense, even though I didn't have my own children, that phase of my friends having their children was really challenging for certain friendships, because obviously your attention is focused in different directions and life is busy and it can be really hard to carve out a space but I think with the friendships that I most value there's that generosity of spirit that I write about in the book where we're all our default is to think the best of each other and to acknowledge that we might not see each other as much as we'd like because there are so many competing factors in our diaries but when we

do see each other there's no guilt that's the key yes like and even with like when I saw the girls from home at the baby shower like there was it was just like you just pick it up again and you don't want to have that guilt because you do feel guilty about it but then when I was speaking to them I was like oh are you guys always hanging out and stuff and they were like no we never see each other because life gets in the way and like everyone's really busy but I think it is important but like for me as well it's really important to to um to have separate friends to Spano as well like of course he's friendly with all my friends as well but like I like having my own friendship groups where I go off and because he doesn't want to do all

the things that I want to do and and vice versa. Will no one rid me of this troublesome priest? This is a time of great foreboding. These words supposedly uttered by a king over 800 years ago. These words supposedly uttered by a king over 800 years ago, these words, supposedly uttered by a king over 800 years ago, set in motion a chain of gruesome events and sparked cult-like devotion across the world. I'm Matt Lewis. Join us as we unwrap the enigma

and get to the heart of what really happened to Thomas Beckett by subscribing to Gone Medieval from History Hit. TV characters into therapy. Join me, Ben Bailey-Smith, and our brand new psychotherapist, Nimone Metaxas. Hi, Ben. Yes, this season we're going to be putting the likes of Tommy from Peaky Blinders, Cersei from Game of Thrones on the couch

to learn why their behaviour creates so much drama. So make sure you press the follow button to get new episodes as soon as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Shrink the Box is a Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Shrink the Box is a Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. But it's even important that you had that conversation with your friends about, because you were clearly feeling, A, guilty, but B, like you had a fear that they were all carrying on

their friendships without you in a way because you hadn't shown up. And actually to have that really honest conversation brings you closer. Because they like oh no of course we're not hanging out all the time and it's just so lovely to see you and then that that kind of gives you impetus to keep going then for a few more months and yeah um but what for you is friendship like how would you define it what for you makes a good friendship a lot of my friends like well actually pretty much lot of my friends, like, well, actually pretty much all of my friends, other than those that I would consider friends, but more acquaintances kind of thing, would feel like family to me. So they really would feel as close as that. And it's friends are people who are just there for you. Like when you need them, you're there for them. And they have to bring like a joy into your life as well. Like I've had friends that I've had to remove from my life and some people that I really like.

And I just thought you're just, you're not bringing what I need into my life. You're just kind of bringing, I just, if you can't trust somebody as well, I think that it's really strange when you think that somebody has a different agenda. I'm just really, I'm very considerate of who I want to spend my time with because time is short. Like you don't have that much free time, particularly when you're working and stuff like that. And I think it's important to spend it with people who just bring you happiness and add to your happiness and you add to their happiness. It has to be like a two-way thing. You can't just be expecting so much off a friend and not giving anything back, but it's something that you should want to give back without even trying. How has being famous affected your friendships? Because you are someone who is instantly recognisable visually and through your voice and also someone

who thousands of people want to be friends with and potentially myself included. I'm putting myself at the top of that list, but also maybe even think they are friends with you. Definitely myself included because there's an intimacy to podcasting and to reality TV where you constantly show up as yourself. And so is that a struggle sometimes maintaining boundaries because people want to be your friend and you're very, you have to be selective about who is actually allowed in. I think that I'm quite clever about it. And I don't think that I've had to try that hard with it. There's definitely been a couple of people that I've let in where I'm like, I shouldn't have let you in, but I don't hold bad feelings towards those people. It just isn't a friendship that I would want to continue.

But there are people that I would have in my life, and you have some in your book as well, that you kind of keep a little bit at arm's length because although you like spending time in their company, they're probably not really great for you as well. Yes, but how do you do that? How do you keep them at arm's length? I kind of, they're not people, they're people that I'd see at things. Okay, so you wouldn't continue the communication via WhatsApp afterwards? No, not too much. Maybe a tiny bit of communication, but they wouldn't be, I'd see them at events and stuff like that, but they're probably not somebody that I'm going to go, oh, let's go hang out and let's go have a coffee or let's go for dinner. And what about Spencer's attitude to friendship? Is that different from yours?

He's like your husband, Justin, where he pretends he has no friends, but he has loads of friends. Benny will like tell you that I don't care about friends I don't have any friends and it's like Spencer like you've so many friends and he kind of

he loves new people so like he'll have a flavour of them all he can't help himself but he does have like he's very close to my brother Alexander

who lives with us he loves his company he loves my cousin Killian so it's a real problem if Spencer and I ever break up because they're coming with me do you think your sister Amber is is one of your best friends is there a difference between being someone's sibling being related to them and being a friend I don't really feel like that I really feel like she's my best friend but she's somebody who will

get away with whatever she does she'll always get away it. Where I think is if you have a friend who really does something that they shouldn't do, you'd probably say, listen, I'm kind of out. Whereas with a sister, they can do whatever they want. But Amber and I have been best friends since we were very small. We've always spent all our time together. We ring each other honestly about four or five times a day.

We're always on to each other. And she really is a very she's my best of best friends Spencer hates me saying that because he's like I'm your best friend yeah like Amber is you mentioned earlier about some friendships that have fallen by the wayside have you ever had to end a friendship and have you ever actually addressed that conflict head on I have had about three friendships that ended. One was a very long standing friendship and it just, you know what, how long would it be now? It's been about five years now, but it was just one of those things. And like, I know that she's happy. I know that

I'm happy, but there wasn't like a huge conversation around it. It was kind of like a falling out wasn't like a huge conversation around it it was kind of like a falling out by the end of it but I could feel it coming for a while and so that stopped and like you feel kind of sad because you're like god we spent so much time together but like again life just goes on it's there's no bad feelings I think on either part for sure now um and then other friendships have ended because like there was a kind of little trust issue where I'm just like I don't know about you now and also sometimes

when people surround themselves with people that aren't good people you're like oh you kind of have to question why that they are that they want to do that when you know

it's not even good for them so sometimes that happens as well and do you tend to just then drop out of communication or you let no I would let them know. You'd let them know?

Yeah. Excuse me, we are not friends anymore. That's so admirable. I think, well, it's happened so rarely that like, and there's always been reasons for it happening that it's kind of, you can't really do, I don't understand the ghosting thing. Like that friend in your book who ghosted you, I find that, like, I find it really strange to do something like that to somebody. I think like even ghosting when you're like, I've been ghosted when I was kind of going out with somebody

and I was mad about him. And then all of a sudden it was just like less and less and less. And I think it's the meanest thing to do to somebody. I just think it's like a real cowardly, although people think they're being nice by doing it that way. Whereas I just think, just tell them. So you have told someone, I'm sorry, I don't trust you anymore. So I don't feel safe in this friendship. That's actually amazing. Yeah. I mean, there were reasons behind it. Face to face. No, it was on the phone. Okay. But there are reasons behind it. Yes. Yeah. I think that's really, sorry, because you're speaking to someone who is historically so conflict avoidant that that for me is just mind-blowing and really admirable but I think that there's something really important here about clarity being the ultimate act of love

and friendship yeah in a way so you're ending the friendship in the most loving way by being clear yeah and and then everyone knows where they stand. And like, it's, I always think no matter what happens, I think it's really sad to lose a friendship. But I think even with conflict, like I don't love conflict. I'd be very rational with stuff. And like, I like talking about things. I don't, I'm not like Spencer brushes everything under the rug, like everything. We could have an argument and he's like, oh, oh, are you still annoyed about that? Like, I'm done with that. I'm like, but we haven't spoken about it. And he's like, no, I'm finished with that now. And I'm like, no, that's not how I work. I have to sit

and chat things through. And he hates doing that as well. Well, I'm relieved that I am actually, I'm weaseling my way into your friendship. You don't need to weasel, you're in. Oh my gosh, Vogue, thank you. You're in mine, genuinely. And if we ever have conflict, which we never will. Ever. Ever. We'll go see a therapist together. We're going to see a friendship therapist, exactly.

And you're going to live next door to me. And our bedrooms will look into each other's windows. I can't wait for this. Yes. And your stepfather will come and read The Hobbit in between our two bedrooms. And give eight to us as well. And make us Hoover the house. I can't wait. I can't wait. Vogue Williams, you are so brilliant.

So are you. And I am so lucky that I just got to spend this time chatting to you. I've loved it. But don't go anywhere. Because now we've got our subscriber series, Failing With Friends. And now you get to play Agony Aunt, which I bet you're really good at. I love doing things like this. Yes. I knew you would would because you do it with my therapist goes to me as well i've loved it too thank you for coming on how to fail thank you for having me i chat more with vogue williams over on my subscriber series failing with friends where we tackle your questions and your failures here's

a taster and as well by the way for women which i never realized until i started wearing this ring which tracks everything and tracks your period and everything it's on her finger by the way yeah it's my finger but basically for two weeks of the month you have a very low libido because of the way your cycle is. And like, I never really knew that or understood it. And remember to follow us to get new episodes as soon as they land, wherever you get your podcasts or on Spotify, Amazon Music or Apple Podcasts. And please share a link with everyone you know.

This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening. you know. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.