How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - Will Young - ‘I like to talk about it because I survived it’

Episode Date: April 24, 2024

TW: this episode contains discussion of sexual assault and suicide.  In many ways, Will Young is the definition of resilience. As a child, he endured physical and psychological abuse at prep school. In his 20s, he found fame on a reality TV show and was forced to be public about his sexuality by a tabloid newspaper, after which he faced years of homophobia. In his 30s, he coped with extensive periods of depression as he struggled to understand his PTSD and tragically lost his twin brother, Rupert, to death by suicide. Now in his 40s, his survival is its own success. And yet, professionally, he has also thrived, selling over 10 million albums worldwide, scooping two Brit Awards and an Ivor Novello along the way. Four of his albums have reached number one. In person, Will is witty, smart and heartbreaking in equal measure. I think this is one of my favourite ever HTF episodes. We talk flunking his A-levels, dropping out of Strictly Come Dancing and relationship failures. Despite once stating he never had confidence in himself as a pop star, Young is about to release his ninth studio album, Light It Up and a new single, Falling Deep, was released last week.  As always, I’d LOVE to hear about your failures. Every week, my guest and I choose a selection to read out and answer on our special subscription offering, Failing with Friends. We’ll endeavour to give you advice, wisdom, some laughs and much, much more.  Have something to share of your own? I'd love to hear from you! Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com Production & Post Production Manager: Lily Hambly   Studio and Mix Engineer: Josh Gibbs Producer: Hannah Talbot Executive Producer: Carly Maile Head of Marketing: Kieran Lancini How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production.   Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by car and other conditions apply. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with me, Elizabeth Day. This podcast puts failure in the spotlight and asks us what we learn from the moments in life that don't go according to plan. Because I firmly believe that most failure can teach us something if we let it. Every week I talk to a new guest about the times they failed and had their perspective on life and what success really means was shaped along the way.

Before I get stuck in, I just wanted to remind you all about my subscriber series where Will and I are taking a look at your failures or questions. This week we go through your queries on dating today, it's a big one, battling with your weight and body image and dealing with life in the public eye, plus not being able to travel on motorways because of panic attacks. A really big and interesting range of questions today and we would love to see you there. If you'd like to get in touch, follow the link in the podcast notes. My guest today is a multi-award winning singer, actor, author and activist. His first appearance on stage was delivering one line as a fir tree in a school production at the age of four. He sang and acted throughout his politics degree at Exeter University and in 2002 won the inaugural series of

Pop Idol. The single he released off the back of the show became the fastest-selling debut in UK chart history. But it would rapidly become apparent that Will Young was not in the business of being pigeonholed as a reality TV show winner. Young has now sold over 10 million albums worldwide, scooped two Brit Awards and an Ivor Novello, and was also nominated for an Olivier Award for acting. As a gay man who made no secret of his sexuality at a time when such honesty was discouraged by the music industry, Young has broken down many barriers, becoming a mentor for LGBTQ plus communities, starting the hit podcast Homo Sapiens and publishing a memoir, To Be a Gay Man. He supports many causes, including animal rights and several mental

health charities, including one set up by his twin brother Rupert, who died by suicide in 2020 after suffering years of alcoholism. Despite once stating he never had confidence in himself as a pop star, Young is about to release his ninth studio album, Light It Up, and a new single, Falling Deep, was released last week. I don't like the vulnerability of writing songs, releasing them, and the result being judged, Young has said. I never have, even if they prove successful. Will Young, welcome to How to Fail. What a lovely intro. Well, what a lovely man. It was very easy to write because I voted for you to win pop idol and i remember that event i had a pop idol themed

party where there were lots of i served uh britney spit britney asparagus spears was one of the dishes i remember amazing and it was it actually was so interesting writing that introduction and doing the research because i had forgotten just how intense Pop Idol was. I'm sure you haven't forgotten. The thing is, there's something really amazing about watching your dream come true in real time that's quite unique in terms of a vocation. People might experience it in relationships maybe or getting a home that they love or whatever but to have that dream of wanting to be a pop star and then it's happening is just the most amazing thing so any intensity

was outweighed by this kind of disbelief that this was happening it's a bit like being in a dream it was just the best thing ever and even having a microphone for me because i was quite a repressed singer which had reverb which is like the echo effect was like someone had let me out of a cage it was just so brilliant so the rest like fell into secondary worries and also it was quite naive then when you look at it now it looks like the eurovision from the 70s it's really funny it looks so basic in a really like enchanting charming way because i think we started with 600 000 viewers you know and ended with they probably lied about the amount of 13 million wasn't it i think it was more than that. It was just bonkers.

There is a very memorable moment where you stand up to Simon Cowell, who described your performance as average. Yeah. And you stood up to him and said, with all due respect, I don't think you can describe that as average. Yeah. Did you know you were going to do that? I knew I was going to stand up to him.

I was operating on a few levels so I think I knew that I needed a moment because I thought if you get a moment then you've people will remember you so that's in a way sort of almost callous you know in a way and then I also knew that I really disliked that man and I'd met him on another competition before on the This Morning Boy Band competition I was at university at Exeter and I remember thinking I really don't like that man and I went to a school where I was surrounded by I have to pick my words carefully my experience was very abusive and I was surrounded by a lot of quite unpleasant men so my radar for for people who I perceive as unpleasant is quite on and I just want to be careful I'm not saying that he's abusive but my radar is pretty good

so my reaction was on live tv when I came across him I was like I like that man and then he was there again I was like like, oh, Christ, it's that. And I just knew we were going to have a sort of set two. I knew it. So it was give myself a moment, but also I'm not going to stand. He needs to be put in his place, because I had to sit and watch him make people cry for weeks, building up to my live performance in front of him. And I just thought, no no one's telling this man

why is no one telling him and so I was like I'm gonna tell him how much of that do you think was informed by the fact that you did have a bullying abusive experience at school that you actually when you got to a certain stage you were going to stand up to bullies I think it probably was now I've had a lot of therapy now I don't I think it probably was informed by that and and and still is now like I just don't like people who you misuse authority it's actually a bit of a gift now it's taken me a long time to see it because I can spot it very quickly and also it's quite an important part of my life now I mean it's so naff to say but I'm actually genuinely quite grateful for it it took me a long time to realize that you see the truth yeah and also I think people in the music industry entertainment

industry you know I'm sure you've seen it they play play on people's desire. Your desire is going to make you do anything. And by that stage, I'd already had my first bout of depression. I'd lost someone close to me. I knew, you know, bit of life. It wasn't the be all and end all. And so I didn't care about letting someone like him get away with it. Whereas I think lots of people in subsequent programmes, I think there has been some awful behaviour, actually,

which is pretty well documented. It's no sort of accident that suddenly there's no X factor, it's just disappeared. No-one's mentioned that. It's like we're still getting quite a lot of viewers. Suddenly it's disappeared off televisions. Yeah, I think there's a reason for that. But we were pretty lucky.

We actually had a really good time. There's quite a fair bit of ambivalence wrapped up in that. So it was a dream. It was coming true. And yet the way it was being done was slightly dysfunctional and had this bullying figure for you at the heart of it and is that an ambivalence that you carry with you now around the notion of success i mean obviously this podcast all about failure yeah although we've had a chat before and neither of us really believe

it's all a learning experience but the notion of success can actually be harder to inhabit so how do you feel about your success yeah that's interesting I don't think I think maybe for a long time there was quite a backlash to to pop idol it was the first time that that kind of talent show when someone was like one person they get the contract and it was massive of course there'd been other talent shows um but this was sort of in a different era there was quite a backlash and I found that really hard so like so I'd go to things Of course, there'd been other talent shows, but this was sort of in a different era. There was quite a backlash and I found that really hard. So I'd go to things and hear people slagging me off.

And it was just people who were my heroes. So I felt very unwelcome within music. I think that took me a long time to shake. Maybe I've never really shaken it. I've always felt a bit more welcome in acting than than I have music and also it broke my heart because I was 22 and I'd hear like I won't name them but you know just people they didn't like the show and then they didn't like me because I was on the show so that was probably tied in with the notion of success but there's a great moment when you've been doing it a while

i don't know if you've had this and you suddenly think oh i've been doing this a while now and i'm still doing it do you know what i mean i know exactly what you mean yeah and it was after about probably eight years maybe 10 years and i ran into florence and the machine i think it was i think she was pleased to see me and i was like oh think she was pleased to see me. And I was like, oh, she's quite pleased to see me. And I thought, oh, I've been doing it a while. I've been, you know, and then you sort of settle in a bit. And then, and now I'm sort of at the stage where I'm like, well, in part, I sort of feel like I'm just getting going, actually.

So do I. And we're the same age. We're 45, both of us. Oh, there you go, best age. It really, really is. Yeah. And I know a lot of your new album deals with that idea of being in your 40s and the empowerment of it. Tell us a bit about that.

Well, I did a video, yeah, for Falling Deep. And I wanted to use dancers in their 40s. Because I'm in my 40s. I was talking with the director, Sam. He said, why don't we do that? And I suddenly felt, God, this weight lift off my shoulders because I was thinking, oh God, I'm going to have to go on a diet and I'll be surrounded by like 20 somethings. And I was like, why would I do that? There's amazing dancers in their 40s. And it was just brilliant. It was really empowering,

actually. And I had this brilliant moment when I actually referenced a Nintendo Game Boy and I realised everyone realised what I was talking about. So there's something quite nice about that because pop music can be quite youth orientated and, you know, maybe not as much as it used to be. And the rehearsals were so great. It just took all the pressure off. Everything was lovely. I don't want to ask a ham-fisted question over something so sensitive and traumatic. Is part of the fact that you embrace ageing because your twin didn't get the chance? No.

I don't think that was ham-fisted. No. I mean, in a way, I wish I had that moment. You know, people go, and then I lived my life. I realised I'm doing this for me, I wish I had that moment, you know, people go like, and then I lived my life. I realized I'm doing this for me. I'm doing this for Rupert, you know, and I just wish it was that simple, you know, that I could sort of have that. I had a near death experience, never look back. I don't think so. The weird thing about Rupert in a way is, actually I was talking to a friend of mine. We both went to school together at this school we both had you know horrible experiences at prep school and um we've become

friends again he's a twin he was saying thing about being a twin is if my twin went i'd still think he's around and i was like yeah that's what i think so everyone thinks being a twin it must be like the even worse the the you know the rip the rip, the grief, the, you know, the ripping apart of someone leaving this earth. Actually, I feel him the whole time. So it's quite beautiful. I was talking to him today. You know, it really is beautiful. Yeah.

And so weirdly, I think being a twin has made it less hard. Probably not for my parents. And also, when you lose someone, they all have a different role. I'm not a mother. I'm not a father. And that's why often families fall apart because people, grief can tear families apart. It hasn't with ours because I realised that I'm not a mother. I'm just a twin brother. You know know sometimes i get annoyed with him still oh for fuck's sake rupert you know

but i don't often miss him and then sometimes it just comes in when i'm like oh he was quite funny actually but when you've had someone that's created a lot of difficulty in your life as well there's a relief that comes with them not being there and i know that's sort of that's a very risky thing to say in a way but i said it when i did the documentary and i think people that have lived with people that have addiction problems either friends or parents you know most people probably have at some stage. There is a relief because all that's gone, you know, and I can sort of see his brilliance again.

He's just in another place. You mentioned an extraordinary documentary that you did with your parents on Channel 4 about his death and his illness. And you talked in that about being his carer for a few months before he died a few years a few years looking back at those years now what do they mean to you well i tell you what really means i'm so pleased we had covid together because we were in los angeles and i'm just so pleased we had that time because we had quite quite a good time then and he wasn't drinking and he was helping me with my dogs we were just rescued and then we came back and then he started drinking again and it sort of got bad and they took his life so i'm really pleased we had that

time when i look back on the overall time it was really awful you know i mean it was really difficult working caring for him cleaning you know cleaning the sheets every day wash it because he would have pissed himself wiping his ass getting drinks for him getting pills he's addicted to cocodamol by the way it's very codependent behavior but it was just all i knew what to do it was just the easiest way of trying to taper the drinks and so it was exhausting i remember doing a show i was doing i was doing a show and we had a matinee and in between the matinee and the evening performance he kicked off and been arrested and taken to some psych ward and I had to get to the psych ward try and get him out and get back for the evening performance but you just do it but that was

driven by I just didn't want him to die and then I realized like I am going mental and I am going down with the ship and like it could even be the case that I die before him do you know what I mean it was like I felt so ill so I had to release that and be like you can't do this anymore because you're just you're not living a life so I had to kind of give it up but it was driven by just trying to keep him alive. I did a pretty good job. You did? Yeah, I did. When you talk to him now, does he talk back? Yeah, he sometimes... Yeah, I said I'd see three mediums, so I've seen two,

so I've got one more to go. Sometimes he tells me, and I'm a bit witchy as well, and he was very witchy, so if there was ever anyone that was gonna like get in touch it would be him and quite a few weird things have happened yeah which I won't share but sometimes he tells me to get in touch with other people which is weird wow yeah friends old friends so then I have to ring them up and go Rupert's bloody bringing you into my dreams and I have to are you okay?

So he shows up in your dreams? If you get visions, it's a bit weird. They come in different ways. So I get visions. Often my communication with him comes in dreams. And I wake up and I'm like, oh, he came in and he bought like a very old friend. He bought to me recently and was just checking in with them. And they weren't doing great.

So I was like, oh, well done, Rupert. Wow. Thank you so much for talking about Rupert with me. And they weren't doing great. So I was like, oh, well done, Rupert. Wow. Thank you so much for talking about Rupert with me. I really appreciate it. But I'm not the only person to have lost someone, you know. I think it's important to talk about it, give other people permission. Final question before we get on to your failures. I read that you were sort of bumped into being public about your sexuality

because a tabloid newspaper at the time was going to reveal it. Is that right? No. I had this amazing litigation lawyer. He does everyone, basically. The Terror of Fleet Street. I kept on having these meetings with him. You've got to bear in mind that this time no Twitter, none of that.

Papers ruled. You'd get calls on a Friday for what's going on in the Saturday papers, calls on a Saturday for what's going on in the Sunday papers. They found this, they're running this, they're saying this. It happened every weekend. This is 2002 pop idol time. Yeah, this is exhausting.

Oh, they're running. Someone said that he slept with you. Someone said that. I was like, I wish! i'm just sitting at home you know like i wish someone said like he's got your pants what the fuck and so we were gonna go with a broadsheet and announce about me being gay but then the sunday mail ran a story which weirdly even then i think it was illegal to out someone even in 2002 but they did it so we outed them by going with the news of the world or the sun i can't remember the day before yeah but we were going to do it in a couple of weeks how did you feel about the idea of having to quote-unquote announce it i just thought the whole thing was so unnecessary i really do you know there were wars going on and i you know some mincy pop stars stop up you know it's just i just thought that was just so pointless i got why i had to do it but it was just it was

such an unnecessary stress but it was the way you don't seem angry about it no I'm not angry about it were you no when I started doing the podcast homo sapiens then I think I was sort of reclaiming some of my gay shame and like you know talking with Chris about things and who's the other presenter and interviewing people and I got angry then about the homophobia I'd had. Not the coming out, but the homophobia. And that was pretty awful, actually. But it was so normalised then, so I didn't really think about it. It was just like, oh, that's what you would write in a paper.

That's what you'd say on the radio. And I was angry probably for about five years. But then I just sort of laid it to rest. Yeah, I had a couple of chats with some people and then laid it to rest. I thought, I don't want to be angry. Do you experience homophobia now? Very rarely.

I used to get it two, three times a week. It was really scary. You know, running away from people. Yeah, hiding in shops, airports, in the street, bars, nightclubs. I can't think of the last time. And also, I would be really interested in my reaction now. Because I think I'd just be a bit like, really? Are we still doing that?

I think probably my energy changed a bit as well. I noticed when I took up kickboxing that I came back from that. It was a training camp, which makes me sound a lot better than I am, by the way, but it does sound impressive. It was a training camp where I did like one class. And I think my energy changed and I noticed that people wouldn't. I wondered if I walked around a bit, you know, head down. I noticed that people stopped really doing that. So I'm glad, you know, I'm really glad.

It's not fun. It makes you very paranoid. It did. And it was scary. It was genuinely scary. It wasn't just like, oh, that's not very nice, poor you. It was like, I'm going to get the shit kicked out of me and they're saying they're going to stab me.

But it was just the norm then. And this happened in London? Yeah, London, everywhere. A few years ago? I would say probably up to about 2010. OK. It then started changing. Changing.

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on youtube or listen to let me say this ad free by joining wondery plus in the wondery app or on apple podcasts so will young yeah your first failure is that you flunked your a levels tell us about that what did you do for a level i did politics ancient history which was roman and greek history i loved it and i got the prize i beat ned brown and i was really pleased well done yeah i don't know who ned brown is but i'm proud of you he was like oh what did you get in your essay? I got, what did you get? 82%? I got 90%. Bad luck, Ned. And English.

And I was predicted three A's, I think, or two A's and a B. And I wanted to go to Oxford. I wasn't bright enough for Oxford, but I wanted to go because I loved the buildings. And I got BCD. I completely flunked. I walked out of one of my exams after 20 minutes. Why? What was going on for you? It was the ancient history one particularly.

And I was like, I don't know how to answer these questions. And I remember this guy, Richard Coleman, who was like, Young, what are you doing? And he had hair that flapped like that. He said, Young, what are you doing? And I was quite angry. I was like, you haven't fucking taught me to pass exams. You've just lectured me. They didn't teach us how to pass exams. So I didn't understand any of the questions.

And then I had to go to a retake college and I went through it with the tutor the first day and she was like, oh no, this is what these questions are. I was like, oh, what if they told me that? I wouldn't be here. I was very good at getting information. I was never good at getting it out. And I continued to flunk exams, flunked first year at university, at Exeter, second year. Don't know how I got a degree. Talking about how much you loved ancient history, if you felt really passionate about something, did you struggle to structure it in a way that made sense in an exam?

Like the passion was bigger than the exam. I think I did, actually. I think that's very astute of you. Yeah. And I wonder if I've got something going on somewhere because I'm not good always at structuring things and also I just get really sweaty like clammy hands remember so your hand would stick to the paper and then the ink would bleed I had so much information I didn't know how to get it out so I just sort of almost froze I think that's what happened university different I just didn't do any work can we revisit

school you've touched on your prep school experiences and I don't know how comfortable you are talking about what you experience what you were on the receiving end of I don't mind talking about it at all I really don't I did this awful interview with someone I'll tell you who it was afterwards I'm quite robust but it was one of the worst experiences I've ever had 22 years at that point they did exactly what people do which is that they took the fact that I went to a private school and that I'm well spoken and made it about privilege rather than potential abuse of a young boy or young child you know and it was really shocking. That's what happened.

So I've tried to get various documentaries made up about the boarding school system and how... It's quite interesting when you dive into it and you look at government nowadays, you know, you see the whole correlation. No-one wants to make it because no-one wants to hear about posh boys or posh girls, happen to girls as well, being abused.

All they see is privilege and class. And actually, my parents weren't very wealthy. You know, my dad, he ended up being quite successful, but he worked really hard. But I was just surrounded by a lot of very angry men. And I saw sexual abuse, physical abuse, boys' heads smashed against radiators. You know, my brother was lifted up by his throat and slammed against a bookcase by someone that we knew actually, which is weird, a teacher. Wow.

Boys were, pants were taken down and beaten. Boys were taken out of the dormitory at night. We were watched in the showers, watched in the baths, made to change our shorts. You weren't allowed to wear pants, which was so weird because your penis would fall out of your shorts on the football pitch. But if they found that you had pants, they'd make you change naked. It just went on and on. So I like to talk about it because I survived it which I did and it almost broke me you know there was a point in my life when I was suicidal I've spoken about that awful PTSD

almost broke me couldn't work I was really ill but I've sort of come out of it now but I still think it's important and now I'm so good at spotting you know what it gave me was hyper awareness so I can tell you something about someone in two seconds I can read them and that's a real gift yes did this continue into secondary school no secondary school was like the best thing okay I mean we got like three fruit salads was it were our sweets at prep school. That's what we were allowed. They were horrible, horrible little sweets called fruit salads or licorice blackjacks. I remember them.

They used to change the colour of your tongue. Yeah. And that was like a luxury. We were allowed that. Had to listen to classical music every night. Called by your surname. I mean, it was just so draconian. It was awful.

And the school, I'll be really honest about it I said to the school I will talk about this till the day I mean they must hate me because like I just don't shut up about it all you have to do is google then you just find out what the school is I know it's a different school now but the people that there's still people on the board of you know the trust that were there when I was there but anyway then I went to Wellington and I was like oh my god we can like wear our own clothes because we're never allowed to wear our own clothes we weren't allowed to listen to music at prep school we had to sneak in a walkman call each other by our first names we'd have sweets there was a tuck shot I mean it was just we could watch television it was brilliant what do your parents think now of what went on

because that must be a conflicting thing for them they thought they were doing the best they get Watched television. It was brilliant. What do your parents think now of what went on? Because that must be a conflicting thing for them. They thought they were doing the best for you. They get very angry. I spoke about it on the documentary about my brother. Because that was a big reason why he was unwell. And my dad, my dad's like the best person in the world. I love my dad. He is the most amazing.

I don't think he realises what a brilliant dad's he is the most amazing i don't think he realizes what a brilliant dad he is he's amazing and he's the most amazing husband i say this to my mum i was doing a gig once and people could i'm going to do it again because it was post-covid and i just did five gigs me and a piano but people could also send in questions on an ipad who pops up my fucking mother from cornwall i'm like in cardiff my fucking mother pops how's she even got the email address she's like it's your it's your mother and this is like real time i'm like oh god my mother's just what are we going to do about your father that's all it that's all it said as you're doing this live performance amazing they're really funny but i i think my mum gets very angry about it still and my dad probably

feels quite guilty but you know i've told them you didn't know they didn't know it's not their fault so your a levels coming as they did at this at the end of this long period of extended schooling the first half of which sounds completely monstrous awful yeah second half much better yeah did it did it feel like a failure at the time that you got these grades yeah yeah it did actually i was devastated i just didn't understand what happened i think I was in a bit of a haze because I worked really hard. I was quite nerdy, actually. I really enjoyed it. There was no, like, I'll use those grades to try and get to the university

if I can get to one. I wasn't putting up with that. I should have never thought about that. I could have just put up with that and gone somewhere. But I was like, no, I'm not doing that. Do you think you had an idea in your head of the kind of person you wanted to be the kind of university you wanted to get to are you kind of competitive with yourself yes I think so yes probably a bit better now I hope but very competitive with myself and I was just like

I want two A's and a B and I'm not putting up with anything less I wanted three A's but even with that I could only the only university that accepted. I wanted three A's. But even with that, I could only, the only university that accepted me was Exeter. And I didn't even know where Exeter was. I remember saying to my dad, I was like, oh, where's Exeter? He was like, are you joking? So I ended up in Exeter. Your second failure, we're now spooling forward in time.

Your second failure is Strictly Come Dancing, which you competed in in 2016 and you pulled out and you describe it in your email to me as a big failure but I did it and ultimately got healthier and happier yes so I would love you to take us back to being asked to go on Strictly Come Dancing did you immediately say yes that's for me no I suggested it I'd been asked a couple of times and then I thought oh maybe this will be good you know to sort of be in people's rooms every Saturday night I was at that point in my career

because careers go like that you know I'd stop being able to get on certain shows it's really hard when that happens by the way to begin with no one ever talks about that so I'm going to talk about it please do I'm sure my management probably go don't talk about it it's all about success but suddenly you stop it happens to me I couldn't get on certain shows and sometimes I'd get on twice a season like what kind of shows I'm not going to say because it's not because I don't want it to even come across that I'm angry because i'm not angry at all but do you mean like reality tv shows or like current affairs shows promote it okay oh i see that you can promote yes got it and that's hard that rejection is really difficult because it's not like you've i've done anything wrong

and you know then people start come up and going are you still doing music and that's hard to hear because you're like yes i do i'm doing music and you know the album's done well but so that's why i did strictly which i think was a sensible decision but what wasn't what i didn't realize i was also in the middle of you know protracted breakdown and and complex ptsd and i learned very quickly i wasn't going to be able to do this and i tried to pull out and and you know my experience was with people i was who were managing me at the time was i was kind of forced to do it basically they were like if you pull out bbc will never have you on and this is the kind of shit that happens i'm so glad i get to talk about this i'm so glad you do This is the kind of shit that happens. I'm so glad I get to talk about this.

I'm so glad you do too. Yeah, this is the kind of shit that happens. This is the best thing about being in your 40s, you don't care. And I was like, I'm not well enough. I tried to pull out of a tour. They were like, used money. You need to earn money. Did the tour.

I mean, I was so unwell. Meant to be on stage at 8.30. I was in my dressing room at 8.30 on the floor. Actually, my day-to-day manager told me recently that she left because she couldn't watch me like that anymore or how I was, you know. Tried to pull out strictly and they were like, BBC will never have you on anything again if you do that.

That's what they said to me. So I was like, oh. Did it. So unwell. Had to leave after three weeks got absolutely destroyed in in the press even though i didn't read it but then i heard that horrible man dan wootton is it from the sun is he yeah he got his comeuppance um yeah in the end they do but But I remember hearing him on Radio 4. I thought, well, I'll be safe if I listen to Radio 4. I listened to Radio 4 and he was slagging me off.

And I was so unwell. It was just awful. It was awful. Can you describe the nature of how unwell you were? I was agphobic, completely dissociated. So dissociation, depersonalised, derealised so I couldn't recognise my face in the mirror didn't know, literally couldn't recognise I knew I was me but it was a heightened agoraphobia

imagine having constant panic attacks 24 hours a day I don't know how I managed it to be honest and also I love dancing like I trained in ballet and contemporary I love it so I was actually really excited about the show. Just leaving the house to go to the corner shop was hard. And that was 20 yards. And were you getting any professional help at this stage?

I was, but I think all of them said don't do it. Talk me through what a day is like when you are on Strictly. Because it sounds like the most enormous time commitment yeah it's a massive time commitment I wish I had experienced it when I wasn't ill because I would have loved it the training but you know as much training as you can do basically and then you do if I remember I mean god it's such a long time ago Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday of rehearsals and I think the Fridays and the Saturdays are your kind of show days, basically, where you're in the studio most of the time. You can make really good friendships. Like I made a really good friendship with

Rob Rinder. No, we're still friends now. We happen to be on the same season. Greg Rutherford. We got on really well. So even though I was there for three, it was a very weird moment with Anastasia, I remember. I think she refused to like do the dance off yeah that was very scandalous I spent most of the time out just sort of smoking avoiding people but I was so unwell and could anyone within the production see how unwell you were they knew I was and to be fair they they really did try and help me so you know some people would go and do loads of press afterwards. But they were like, don't worry, you don't have to do that. So it wasn't the show. It was just I wasn't very well. What was the ultimate crunch point for youor and I thought well I'll go down to Cornwall for the week maybe that will chill me out a bit more because literally I was in the middle of nowhere and I'll just do my training with my partner and I couldn't get out of bed and poor thing was left

you know it's awful was left for the day and the film crew and I don't think I've ever done that I just left I don't see it as a failure, but I see it as probably the hardest point of my career. And the fallout in the papers was really horrible. You considered breaking your own legs to get out? I considered breaking my leg to get out of it. Yeah. Because I thought, well, if I break my leg, I won't get in trouble for that.

Did you think about how you would do it? Yeah, sledgehammer. I had a sledgehammer. I know. Because I thought mental health, no one's going to. Whereas if I break my leg, it'll be, you can't really be nasty about that. I don't know. How close did you get?

Did you have like the sledgehammer? I had the sledgehammer, but I just thought, no, I'm not going to do that. On reflection. I had the sledgehammer and I was thought no i'm not gonna do that no that's not a good idea but i guess it's still you know you think 2016 not that long ago but actually it still showed where mental health wasn't totally you know and ironically when i left it was mental health awareness week the savagery in the press we i can I mean, you didn't read it at the time. Do you know what they were saying? No, I didn't read it. It was just, to be honest, it was that one man. He just seemed to not like me and it was really hard work.

And then others picked up on it, I think. And then it sort of ran. It was just hard work. I had the nicest thing, the butcher in Weybridge. When I went in, he said, it's all right, Will. You're with us now you're home I know it's really sweet and I cried that's so lovely yeah you say that it was a different era for mental health which it was in terms of awareness but it was also a very different

era in terms of sexuality and gender identity because you weren't allowed to dance with a male partner. That wasn't even a conversation, I understand, at the time. God, I hadn't even thought about it. I don't think it was a conversation. No. Because now people do. Yes. If I did it now, I would dance with a male partner.

Yeah, I don't think it was an option. I don't remember feeling annoyed about that well it probably wasn't even in your consciousness which in and of itself is sad yes I suppose but I'd done I suppose I'd done a lot of not a lot but I'd done some training that was always with females and if you're doing partner work so I guess it just wasn't even in my brain yeah isn't that funny well it shows how much it's come on the show. You say that it marked a bit of a turning point for you. So let's talk about the positives that came from this dark moment in your life.

What then changed, do you think? I properly chose my well-being over business. Was that the first time you'd done that? I think properly, yes. So I was getting paid 100 grand. It's a lot of money before management, tax and everything. It's still a lot of money. And I think it was 100 grand.

Anyway, so I didn't get that money because I left. So I think I got paid for the three weeks. And then I went back into treatment for trauma. And then I didn't sing for quite a while uh and I hadn't sung for a while before that because I wasn't well so it was quite a protracted period this and I but it was the first time I was like no I'm not doing it anymore because also this is the other worry you pull out of one show no one's going to hire you again or you pulled out no one's going you're unreli. Or you pulled out, no one's going to, you're unreliable. You're mental.

People are like, oh, you're crazy. He's crazy. Oh, he's a bit unstable, that one. All those things come with you. So you just keep on turning up, keep on turning up, keep on turning up. And I just thought, no, I'm not doing it anymore. Fine, even if I lose all my money, I'll go and live with my parents. It'll be fine.

I'll be quite happy. I'm fine. Even if I lose all my money, I'll go and live with my parents. It'll be fine. I'll be quite happy. And I think it was the beginning of sort of rebuilding my life, actually, and myself. But it's probably taken me eight years. Yeah, I finally feel happy again and resilient. I mean, I still get days, but I never thought I would even get there. And I used to fall asleep with the phone, you know, with the Samaritans.

In case I had to call the Samaritans. I remember ringing the Samaritans from the theatre once. And I kept on calling her Deborah, but her name was Donna or something. And I said, well, let's not split hairs here. I'm suicidal. But they were amazing. She asked me the best thing. It's why I always do things for the Samaritans, because they're so brilliant.

She said, are you tired of life? Or are you tired? Because I had such crippling anxiety disorder. Destroyed my friendship. You know, I couldn't see friends, couldn't see anyone. Literally. And relationships, not charms. She said, are you tired of life?

Or are you tired of your anxiety? And I said, I love life. I thought, what a brilliant question, because she immediately got me to get some space from it. And I realised, no, I love life. I want to live. I just, at that stage, hated my anxiety. So I'm a big fan of the Samaritans.

Beautiful. So am I. I'm a Samaritans ambassador. Are you? Yeah. They do extraordinary work, and I'm so glad that they were there for you, as they are for everyone, 24-7.

24-7. I really want to become an operator. I started to try and do the training, but I'm going off to do a film. After the film. After the film, Will. No, I am. After the film, I will.

I know. Have the BBC had you back on any of their shows? Yes. There we go. Exactly. I bet they BBC had you back on any of their shows? Yes. There we go. Exactly. I bet they'd have you back on Strictly as well. After this interview, he'll do it if he can dance with Johannes, okay? Well, that's true.

Is he fit? Is he one of the fit ones? Oh, my gosh. He's such an extraordinary looking individual. And I've seen him in real life and he's just really extremely beautiful. I don't know if I could control myself. Well, you can come back and talk about that failure after you've done it again. Hi, I'm Matt Lewis, historian and host of a new chapter of Echoes of History,

a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit. Join me and world-leading experts every week as we explore the incredible real-life history that inspires the locations, the characters and the storylines of Assassin's Creed. Listen and follow Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts. The Frankies were a picture-perfect influencer family.

But everything wasn't as it seemed. I just had a 12-year-old boy show up here asking for help. He's emaciated. He's got tape around his legs. Ruby Frankie is his mom's name. Infamous is covering Ruby Frankie, the world of Mormonism, and a secret therapy group that ruined lives. Listen to Infamous wherever you get your podcasts. Your third and final failure is your second relationship you say your second relationship failed and then you failed to be a mature emotionally stable person what age was really important to be honest about that it's so important and i love that you are being honest

because actually it's one of those things that wrongly still carries so much misplaced shame like i definitely feel shame at how i wasn't like the cool one who ended things i actually felt heartbroken sometimes and and acted in extreme ways oh god yeah me too yeah how old were you when this second relationship failed oh lovely connor i don't mind naming him. So I was 26 when we met, 28 when it finally ended. I remember going on the date and we met in a club. It was very romantic. And then we went on a date. I remember thinking, this is going to be a nightmare,

but you need this in your life. That's what I felt. So I was at a time when I was I was just a workaholic basically never really going out and I needed fun and he was a party boy you know basically indie kid gorgeous dancer contemporary dancer and I thought I need this but it's going to be a hell of a ride I remember thinking that on the first date and it was yeah it was we just argued a lot neither of us were good for each other it was very very very good sex and I think still the best sex I've had actually I will say that you never take that away but we just argued oh God, like big arguments, you know, like smashing phones out of clubs.

He could be quite nasty sometimes. I could... I don't know. He probably had a sharper... I don't think he'd mind me saying this. He's a very different person now. He could be quite nasty sometimes. Not physical or any of that stuff, but, you know, he'd go low a bit, verbally. And I think I was just a bit nuts and neurotic and fixated on things. So poor guy, you know, wouldn't leave him alone.

Became very jealous. Became fixated on just certain things. What are you doing? You know, like following him to the loos once. What are you doing? I'm going to the loo. I'm just checking. You know, a bit like that.

And I didn't even feel like that kind of person I was like what am I doing Came very jealous of his previous sexual experiences Then took it very personally Then wanted to know about it Became a bit obsessed with it for a while You know I mean just bonkers It sounds like you didn't feel safe

And the reason I say that is because I relate to so much of what you're saying. I don't think I felt remotely good enough in any sense of the word. So why would someone, that was probably underneath it all. Probably abandonment stuff and not feeling good enough. Where's the abandonment stuff from? Being sent to boarding school. Yeah, I think so. And I just felt not good enough. Where's the abandonment stuff from? Being sent to boarding school. Yeah, I think so.

And I just felt not good enough. So then I just started thinking, oh, God, he's just so much better. And everything he did was better. And I'm like jetting around the world, like selling minutes. Yeah. And he's doing that little commercial dancing, which is great, by the way. I just felt... They act like mirrors relationships, don't they? His mirror was, I am just not good enough,

and it just brought out my deep shame and deep self-loathing. And when you split up, did you think, oh, well, that's proof then that I am this loathsome person who's not good enough? I think I felt it the whole time, to be honest. So it was just, and also I was that classic, what they call a love avoidant, love addict. So love addicts, they're avoiders.

So someone comes too near you and you go, and then they go away. It's an attachment thing, you know. They go away and you're like, oh, fill the void. And so you go towards them and you get involved in this dance and that's what we did i'm sure a lot that would be familiar to a lot of people when they don't realize what's going on it's called love avoidant love addiction so we did that bit of a dance but you know what i learned a lot from him i'm very grateful i learned to take it up the bum and done that before and that was great you know it's really important to talk about

the bbc idea in the first yeah but you know it was a great sexual awakening that was quite late to it so i love that we had a lot of fun dancing we had some good holidays in between the arguments we i think we really loved each other actually there. There we go, that's the thing. It's a sadness with it, you know, when you look back. Knowing what you know now about yourself. Yes. I'm sad, and I think you're right, there can be shame that comes with it. But I'm sad because we actually, we had something, whatever it was. was do you think you since then have had a good healthy romantic relationship yes I then met a few years later I'm not I'm still finding relationships hard I'm single I do but I'm

working on it but I had a great relationship a guy called called Jesse. He's a New Yorker. No, not New Yorker, Chicago. Triplet. Huh. A triplet and a twin. Yeah. He used to be quite loud. And, like, we'd go to the cinema and he'd be like,

ah, have you got any oat milk? And I was like, Jesse, we're not in America. We're in a fucking Odeon in Swindon. I'm not going to have oat milk. I was like, he was like, oh, am I being quite loud and American? I was like, you're being really American. He was and is adorable. I couldn't quite get there with him,

but also he was moving back to America. So that ended and we cried. I've never cried so much in my life. We were in the car and I was driving him back, quite driving him to the airport, and we just sat and cried for about half an hour in the car. It was extraordinary. We were so upset.

Yeah. But it just had reached the end. There's a song on your new album called The Worst. Yes. And the chorus goes, Sometimes I drink so I don't feel lonely, Only ever let strangers hold me. And it goes on to

to talk about the idea that vulnerability means accepting that someone might be the worst but they might also be the best yes is that written about your own relationships that's me probably even up to a year ago I would say definitely it's still quite terrifying for me there's something very shaming about being single you know it's like people get weird things happen when you're single one you don't get asked things with couples so bizarre but it happens so you get into adult life and you're like i've heard about this it fucking happens i don't get asked it's like because you don't fit in neatly to a couple and that's not just a heteronormative thing it's a gay thing as well it's across the spectrum that then there's

as we all know the sort of thing of like oh people do that a bit i don't know when you haven't no no one no then there's one's own personal sense of oh i'm failing you know i haven't done it because it's like a tick list when you ask of people i wonder whatever happened to kate oh no kate married yeah she's got two kids you know people talk about that it's one of the things they tick off the list isn't it they don't go like i wonder what happened to kate oh she's single you know she's um done really good work on herself she's really genuinely feels quite fulfilled and happy the whole time you know no one talks about that yes it's like oh they're throwing their oh they've

just been on holiday with their kids and they they you know you see the pictures on instagram sometimes they go fuck off i you know because yes it doesn't mean that they're having the perfect life but as a single person you can I can and I have turned it on myself and thought oh they're having the perfect life there is a cultural fetishization of coupledom yes yes in the same way that I think I was single in my late 30s and I also didn't and don't have children in the same way that i think parenthood the way that it's presented in culture can be so marginalizing and exclusive for those of us who don't feel we belong to that category oh and then that's a whole other thing because then a lot of your friends have come

parents and they get all these no he's finally stopped himself he's buttoned up his mouth we found it we found the thing that Will won't talk about. Is that partly why you love animals? Oh, I love my babies. You know, and I love kids. I'd love to foster, but I don't think I can do it as a single person. But I would love to foster, and I'd be really good at it. You would be?

Yeah, and I'd do teenagers, because I love teenagers. I think they're just amazing. I think the animals also they were my only comfort when i used to get sent off to school i could tell my secrets to them they were my safe place and i think a lot of people that do work with animals or an animal rescue or animal rights have had a time when they've been let down by humanity and they were never let down by the animals. They never let me down.

You know, and that's why I love them. Well, Young, I'm so glad I voted for you to win Popeye Ball those years ago. And I'm so glad I've got to have this conversation with you. And I really want to salute you for taking the time to fall in love with yourself if that doesn't sound too naff no it doesn't and and and to be ready for the relationship that i'm sure is in your future should you want it but how important that you have taken this time

to do the work in such a difficult way sometimes but i I really admire you for it. And I really want to pay tribute to your courage. Thank you so much for being here today. Oh, thank you so much. It's been lovely. Don't forget that I continue my conversation with Will Young over on Failing With Friends, my subscriber series, where we talk through your failures and your questions. Here's a snippet of what you can expect. What you couldn't see there if you're listening to this podcast is that Will just adopted the face for peacock.

It was unbelievable. It was extraordinary. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was so methodical. It's actually my new show. Do it again. So good. I love peacocks. Oh, peac my new show. Do it again. So good. I love peacocks.

Oh, peacocks, they just shouldn't exist. Maybe those weird things, don't they? I could do a pigeon noise. That's actually really good. Thank you. And remember to follow us.

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