How to Talk to People - How to Fuel Up

Episode Date: April 21, 2025

Food trends are constantly changing, so can people commit to a long-term nutrition practice? Kera Nyemb-Diop says yes. She is a nutrition scientist focused on breaking down the “rules” of what people think they should eat and focusing instead on being responsive to how our needs change over the course of a life. Co-hosts Yasmin Tayag and Natalie Brennan reconsider their own food habits and which practices are worth hanging on to for the long haul.  How do you think about aging? Please leave us a voicemail (at 202-266-7701) with your name, your age, and your answers to the following questions: What aspects of aging are you nervous about? What are you looking forward to as you age? Who do you hope to be like when you are older? Is there someone in your life who has made you excited about getting older? Leaving a voicemail means that you are consenting to the possibility of The Atlantic using your audio in a future episode of How To. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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I just saw a video last week that I couldn't even tell if it was satire or not. They were freezing cottage cheese curds, freezing them, and calling it protein dip-in dots. That's gotta be a joke. I mean, we can only hope. I need to know how high cottage cheese sales are up. Could you lift that up? Okay, in the past five years, cottage cheese sales are up more than 50%. 50%? That is so much cottage cheese.

Hahaha! I'm Yasmin Tayeg, a staff writer with The Atlantic. And I'm Natalie Brennan, producer at The Atlantic. This is How to Age Up. How to Age Up. [♪ MUSIC PLAYING Okay, Natalie, have you fallen for any food trends? All of them. All of them. I've tried basically everything except for prayer. I was plant-based. Now I'm eating ground turkey like it's my job. I had a kombucha phase.

I'm desperately worried about my gut health. And I did start buying a brand of oat milk with no seed oils, I fear. Oh, girl. Not the seed oils. I've been writing about them so much in my coverage of food and health at The Atlantic. All these claims that they're toxic are not backed up by the research. I know. It's just like if someone tells me you shouldn't have processed additives

in your drink, I'm like, okay, maybe that's why my stomach hurts. I mean, I get it. I get the sense that a lot of people are worried that the food being sold to them is making them sick. One reason why I think food trends are so popular is because people feel bad. We feel unwell for so many different reasons. Like, you know, I had COVID recently and I didn't even realize it because I thought feeling so terrible was my baseline. So changing what you eat seems like a really easy way to fix what's wrong with you, which

in some ways is fair. There's lots of research coming out showing that eating too much ultra-processed food, which makes up the bulk of what's sold in American grocery stores, is unhealthy in a lot of specific ways. But it's interesting to see now these very real concerns co-opted politically, right? Like, I didn't imagine that criticizing ultra-processed foods could have me worrying that I was aligning myself politically with Maha wellness supporters. You're right. We're at a very interesting time right now where food and the way it's produced is being

politicized. Yeah. You know, with R.F.K. Jr. as the health secretary, food is increasingly being framed in either of two ways. You either eat the mahawe, which is drinking raw milk and eating beef tallow and only having natural foods, or you're like a shill for big food and eat all this terrible processed stuff.

Yeah. Which is confusing, right? Because I don't feel like most people fit neatly into either of those categories. And it's just not the right way to think about eating. The big problem I see is this disconnect between what people think they should be eating and what they actually need nutritionally. And I think the popularity of food trends shows how much we've lost sight of what we actually need.

I do find when it comes to food trends, everything is very black and white. We're often told that each nutrition trend is the best way to eat and it all seems very one-size-fits-all. And, I constantly then feel confused because the advice seems like it's always changing. I spoke to Dr. Kara Nyamdiop about this. She's a nutrition scientist and a coach who is really focused on breaking down the rules of what people think they should eat, and instead teach them how to feed themselves over the course of a life. Our nutritional needs evolve

across the different stages of life, and our body shifts from growth to maintenance and eventually preservation. In childhood, nutrition is all about growth and development. So kids are going to need more calories, protein, key nutrients to support their rapidly growing bodies. Then during adolescence, you also have growth, but you have to consider hormonal changes. And then there's adulthood, when the focus moves to maintaining health, preventing chronic conditions. And then you have older adulthood when you have some real serious physiological changes

that impact eating. Appetite can decrease, sense of taste and smell can fade. And so it's important to consider that aspect when making food choices. I find that the conversation around eating these days is so focused on getting more of a certain supplement or mineral or nutrient. I agree.

You know, one trend that really stands out to me is this obsession with getting more protein. Everywhere you go, you're getting added protein. I've even seen baby food with added protein. What do you make of this? As a nutritionist, I think protein is important. Yes, it plays a critical role in maintaining muscle, supporting metabolism, or contributing to how satisfied we feel after meals. But then there's the marketing.

So in my opinion, this is more marketing than nutrition, and there's some exaggeration happening. Most people don't need to track every gram of protein. This is more marketing than nutrition and there's some exaggeration happening. Most people don't need to track every gram of protein. And I honestly feel we gave fruits and vegetables the same level of hype and attention because this is something that most Americans aren't getting enough of those. So I would say yes, protein is essential, but also it's a trend. And trends comes with noise.

So who might actually need more protein? So we know that people who exercise a lot actually, they definitely need more protein. So depending on your exercise level, now everybody's talking about building muscle mass. So I would say that's definitely a moment where you should be maybe more intentional about your protein intake. Also, I would say when

pregnancy, postpartum phase or after a surgery or an injury, may be moment where you need to be more intentional about what you eat. The growth phase for kids and teenagers, I think it's important to be intentional, but at the same time, being intentional about eating healthy is enough. And I think people understand that, at least in theory, but it's so easy to get swept up in food trends because there are just so many. Protein, like we talked about, probiotics, collagen, adaptogens, you know, they become popular and then they fade out. So what do you think is behind these

shifts? With social media, there's a little bit too much information. It's a mix of, you know, companies trying to push their products and people's interest growing and, you know, a high understanding of how food can be healing, how food can actually impact our health. And I think that's, that's the perfect environment for trends to be popular. One thing I would say, and I always say to the people I work with is to try to disconnect from that a little bit and think about, okay, what do you actually like?

What do you enjoy eating? What seems difficult? What have you tried and was not, wasn't possible? What do you do without thinking that it's actually a good habit that you need to keep? And what do you need to work a little, what habits you need to implement in your life? When you think about nutrition recommendation, it's always sold as a one size fits all. Yeah.

And I get it, you know, it's easier because you need to give the better recommendation for the maximum amount of people, but it doesn't work this way, you know, we have different realities, different preferences. And so I think it's important to adjust. One trend that stands out to me is plant-based eating, which generally seems good. And I've seen it intersect with the

protein trend in that plant-based protein is supposedly healthier than animal-based protein. How should we be thinking about this? Overall, I think the plant-based eating is a positive trend. I will not fight against this one. But I understand it. It's confusing and it's something that's very positive for health. So, it's something I would encourage. Yeah. It's definitely confusing to view food in such granular terms. But that's how lots of people conceptualize it. What's one of the

biggest misconceptions you hear about how to eat? Honestly, one of the biggest conceptions, the first thing I'm thinking now is you shouldn't eat carbs. That's one of the things I hear the most and I really breathe and try to explain to people why carbs are actually important. And, you know, if you've been eating carbs most of your life, you'll be fine. So that's one. And if you like white rice, just eat the white rice, add more veggies on the side. You know, it's more simple than we think.

But I guess people need someone to remind them that. My parents are going to love hearing you say that if they want to eat the white rice, they can just eat the white rice. I have been trying to get them to switch to brown rice for years. Yes, that's a big question. I know my clients love to hear that. They just love me. Just when I say that, you can eat the white rice and you can add fiber in other ways, you know. It doesn't have to be through brown rice. So I would say to me, the other misconception is that you should be very focused on your calorie intake. I'm not saying your calorie intake is not important, you know. Eating enough or eating too much, it needs to be addressed. But all these diets, do you think they're really

focused on, you know, health? My understanding is that they really focused on appearance, looking a certain way. Natalie, as you know, I'm in the middle of trying to figure out a long-term healthy diet for myself after a recent cardiologist appointment. Yeah. Yeah. She looked at my blood work and was like, okay, something has to change here. I kind of miss your heart monitor, though.

You miss me being a cyborg? It was kind of cute. I do not miss it because it made me really conscious about the way I eat. You know, when I was younger, the only thing I really thought about was calories. Calories are so ingrained into our food consciousness from such an early age. But now, my doctor is worried about my blood pressure and my blood sugar and my cholesterol. So I'm having to think about reducing salt, switching to whole grain bread, even eating oatmeal for fiber. I hate oatmeal.

Actually no one said you have to eat oatmeal. I know. And actually Dr. Niamh Jaff is helping me rethink this new shift in eating. When she was talking about healthy ways of eating and was like, what do you actually like? What do you enjoy eating? That kind of reframed my approach to my doctor's recommendations. Yeah, I think it could be really helpful to think about this as additive rather than restrictive. So what are the foods that you enjoy that delight you that still fit into the recommendations that you were given to be thinking about those foods

as foods that you could be eating more of and can fill up more of your plate rather than making switches that you don't enjoy. Right, this is a diet I'm gonna have to keep up for my life. It's meant to prevent chronic diseases. They are in my genes. But I can't be eating oatmeal forever if I hate it. So now I'm thinking about ways I might already be getting fiber and how I can just do more of that.

I mean, I already eat a lot of beans. Maybe there's just going to be more of them in my future. I've got some good bean recipes for you. Please send them over. I think that it's interesting in American culture. There are two ways that people tend to embrace big changes in their eating habits. One is for personal efforts for weight loss,

and the other is when a physician says they have a medical need to change their diet. We don't have a great understanding of how to embrace smaller, more gradual age-specific changes as we age up. Right. Like Dr. Niam Jopp mentioned that our nutritional needs change as we get older. But I've never thought about that. I never saw my parents thinking about that. They eat the same way now as they did 30 years ago. I've been doing a lot of research on this for my own personal health. And there's a study from Harvard and a few

other universities that came out in March that I found to be really helpful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It looked at 30 years of data on the food habits of over 100,000 middle-aged adults. Whoa. What did it find? Okay. So, getting more plant-based foods with low to moderate intake of healthy animal-based

foods was linked to a higher likelihood of healthy aging, which they define as reaching age 70 without any major chronic diseases and having good cognitive, physical, and mental health. Okay. So, backing up Dr. Niem-Diop's claim that plant-based, not just a trend. Not a trend, just a healthy part of a long-term diet. But back to the Harvard study, one thing that I thought was really interesting was that the study looked at eight different healthy dietary patterns in midlife. And all of them were associated with healthy aging. Huh.

Which suggests there's no single best way to eat. Okay, so healthy diets can be adapted to fit individual needs and preferences. There's no set rule book. Amazing news for you and the oatmeal. Oh my God. You're not supposed to eat the same way all your life. Your tastes are going to change, and just try to think about the way you eat as something dynamic and flexible.

You're going to do your best to eat in a way that's aligned with your values and your needs most of the time, but there's no perfect ways of eating. What you're describing sounds to me a lot like intuitive eating. You know, this idea that you should eat what your body tells you rather than try to control your diet. What are your thoughts on it? I think it's an interesting approach.

It's definitely inspiring. However, I'm not aligned on every single aspect because I think that sometimes, depending on your circumstances, you do need to think a little bit more about how you're gonna eat. I felt intuitive eating is really geared toward someone who has financial privilege,

when you can afford not to really think about how you're gonna eat tomorrow, when you can afford not to really think about how you're going to eat tomorrow, when you can afford to focus on your inner hunger and fullness without, you know, because you know you're going to have food all the time. I sometimes hear intuitive eating positioned as the polar opposite of traditional diets, you know, with strict limits on what and when and how much you can eat, which are still so popular. How does this show up with the people you work with?

So my clients are cereal dieters. They come from years and years, decades of dieting and cycling between, you know, from one diet to another. So I'm very familiar with that. And I think that's, you know, from one diet to another. So I'm very familiar with that. And I think that, you know, I understand when you think about it, nutrition can feel overwhelming. And so it may be difficult to navigate. And so a diet is a structure, it feels safe. So that's why people are attracted to these diets.

But, you know, I'm trying to demonstrate. They can trust their intuition to nourish themselves. So how do you teach people how to adopt that approach to eating? I try to not see things black and white. You know, you have to follow a set of rules to nourish yourself. It's more nuances of gray. These are, you know, you have some principles that are true in nutrition. And then how to make this a regular part of your life without being obsessed with it. What are your struggles?

So, you know, it's really personalized, I would say. But the first step is, okay, when people come to me, they failed, quote unquote, failed so many diets, and so they feel they are a failure. And so the first step is showing them they have every, they know, and they need to focus on what they need instead of those rules that are not a good fit. So what would it look like for me, for example, to build healthy eating habits around my needs? I'm in my late 30s, and I have no time.

Yes, yes, we're about the same age, and I do feel that for myself as well. You probably have young kids to take care of. You have aging parents. You have a full-time well. You probably have young kids to take care of. You have aging parents. You have a full time job. You're very busy. So I think the first thing I'm thinking about is, you know, keeping that in mind when I provide recommendations.

Sometimes I hear people, whole food only. I love, I love that. But is it actually doable? Me, when I'm thinking about, you know, that reality, I'm thinking about, you're going to let's go to what's practical. The frozen section, pre-cut vegetables, it needs to be easy, we don't have much time. So I think time management is a big part of nutrition at that age. Frozen spinach is a must in my freezer.

Yes, frozen spinach and being practical. But I don't think there should be a big change in the way you eat, unless you have a condition that the doctor has identified. But you know, I would say if you follow the general recommendation, you shouldn't have to worry about those details. We're going to take a short break, but when we come back... Why is everyone re-talking about the Blue Zones right now?

If you're enjoying this podcast, you should know that you can get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe to The Atlantic. A subscription gives you access to all our award-winning journalism, and you can listen to as many articles as you want online or in the Atlantic app. Your subscription helps fuel our journalism online, in the magazine, and on our podcasts. So subscribe today at theatlantic.com slash pod sub. Yasmin, you know, we've been talking a lot here about not focusing on any one specific diet, right? But instead being flexible and dynamic and listening to your own food preferences.

And you know, it's funny because I'm seeing the blue zones pop up again everywhere right now, which lots of people think of as maybe the key to how to be eating healthy. But now that idea is being challenged, right? The Atlantic just published an episode on the podcast, Get on Paper, about this. I'm seeing article after article. Catch us up. Why is everyone re-talking about the Blue Zones right now? The idea of the Blue Zones has been around for over two decades now. And it's based on this idea that there are these zones in the world where people live

to be 100 or older. Like Okinawa, Japan, Sardinia, Italy, Loma Linda, California, and Icaria in Greece. And what people have really focused on is what people in these places eat. Lots of fruits, vegetables, whole grains, legumes. And the idea has turned into a whole brand that now sells Blue Zone food, cooking classes, even skin care now. But the reason why it's in the news again is because this researcher, Saul Newman, looked into data on extreme old age and argued that the Blue Zone concept is really sketchy. Like, one of his claims is that a lot of people who are said to be a hundred in these places

may not actually have been that old. Whoa. So, it's all raised some doubts about the entire concept altogether. I mean, I watched the Netflix special, and I started eating more beans and trying to walk more. But mostly, I just felt angry that I don't live in a community where the practices being discussed were the norm. That's really the biggest takeaway, right? Like, I'm not sure I can bean my way into a new approach of urban planning and then get centennial status. Exactly. We focus so much on what people in these places eat, which is great. Yeah.

Basically, the Mediterranean diet. But what stands out to me is that these people, whether they're actually 100 or just very old, they also live in societies that are different from the typical American. Exactly. They have a lot of outdoor time. They've got lots of family around. Their food is local. Yeah.

They have time to nap. Like, if I could nap every day, I would have a way better shot at living to 100. But that's the frustrating thing about the popularity of the Blue Zones. No matter how closely you follow the diet, it doesn't lock in the lifestyle that goes with it. So then, because what we eat is one of the only things we feel like we can control, we expect it to do a lot of things for us. That's a lot of pressure to put on our food. Yeah. That reminds me of this concept that's become super popular in the nutrition space,

food as medicine, which I asked Dr. Nyamdiap about. So food as medicine, I think first I'd like to define what it means because for probably what you just described is the belief that eating certain food can prevent or heal diseases. And so, you know, I'm a nutritionist because I believe in the healing power of food. I do believe food can support energy, immunity, mood and long-term health. But my issue is that food as medicine discourse is that we, it framed food as an individual problem. It focuses too much on individual responsibility

and not enough on the systems that create food environment in the first place. And so to me, sometimes it can shift that tension away from the policy change, like investing in equitable food system, addressing structural inequalities. So yes, I support the concept, but only if it's framed as part of a broader solution

that includes systemic change. It does seem like there's a lot of pressure on the individual to make food choices for themselves. But there are important communal aspects to eating too, right? How does that factor into how you discuss food choices with your clients? When we talk about cooking, we immediately understand the community or the sharing aspect of cooking, you know, cooking for others. But when we talk about nutrition, it's always framed in that individualistic frame that you have to eat this for your health. But when you actually bring the two together, you realize that sometimes,

nourishing yourself, you can have support. So it's not only you, it's the support system that can help you make better choices. And if I think about just kids' nutrition, my own example, something when you work with kids, especially toddlers, we talk a lot about picky eating, and something I you know, when you work with kids, especially toddlers, we talk a lot about picky eating and something I've noticed, and we know kids

tend to imitate their parents. And in my husband culture, we tend to eat in a communal plate. And what I've noticed is that my kids eat much more fruits and vegetable when we eat in a communal plate. So when we eat together, then when they, and I give them a plate on their own. So these are strategies also to just eat healthier. So I was trained in France where culture,

community aspect, eating around the table are embedded in our understanding of nutrition. I don't think here it is as much, but it's definitely something I would focus on. How does it affect how you study food habits here? Is it like a superpower where you can see exactly what's going wrong here? Yes, a little bit. So I'm at the interface of different food culture, and so that being at the interface

gives me that superpower, not necessarily coming from outside, but just understanding that culture and the way food connects is so important. It gives me that superpower. I have to say it has been a cultural shock for me when I moved to in the United States a few years ago. But when it comes to finding other ways or finding other solutions or innovating, it's definitely an asset. And to me, it's very interesting, for example, when people feel so guilty

because they eat after a certain time, after 8 p.m. When in my country, where I grew up, dinner's at 8.30. To me, it's fascinating and very interesting. But it's one of the reasons why I love what I do and it triggers some very interesting conversations. It's helped me think about different options when it comes to healthy eating. You know your handle on social media is black nutritionist. Can you tell me about that choice?

When I moved into the United States I moved into a majoritally African-American area. And what happened is every time, you know, I was introducing myself saying I was a nutritionist, people were like, a nutritionist? I never met a black nutritionist. And I heard that so many times that I realized it was actually something to be a black nutritionist. It meant something to people. I learned after that only 3% of dietitians and nutritionists are black nutritionists. And of course, I went through the nutrition curriculum.

I always felt a little bit like an outsider. I always felt that, let's say, focus on the Mediterranean diet was not necessarily super smart. I was felt that way. And I saw an opportunity to say, okay, let's build something and let's address some of the questions that are important to us. And then that's how I decided, okay, this is actually who I am. I'm a black woman. I love nutrition. I love food. I have the training and I have cultural understanding to do something special for my community. Well, thank you so much for this amazing chat.

Thank you so much. Really lovely to talk to you. Yes, I think this conversation has helped me think a lot about trusting my own intuition, that I know what is healthy, I know what foods work for me, and that there's no singular food trend or ingredient that is going to revolutionize my diet for healthy aging. Same. But, you know, everyone has their own relationship to food. And for me, something that has been really helpful in eliminating food guilt or constant obsession is thinking about food sometimes as an experience. Do you know the poet Frank O'Hara?

I know that you are sitting across from me in a t-shirt with Frank O'Hara's face on it. Correct. I'm obsessed with him. I can tell. And a big reason for that is because his poem, Having a Coke with You, which has become kind of a psalm for me. I don't think I know that one. There's a recording of him reading the poem himself, and I've listened to it so many times that without even trying, I've memorized the poem.

He begins by saying, having a coke with you is even more fun. Going to St. Sebastian, Irun, Ondai, Biarritz, Bayonne, or being sick to my stomach on the Travesera de Gracia in Barcelona. Partly because in your orange shirt you look like a better, happier St. Sebastian. Partly because of my love for you, partly because of your love for yogurt. Then he lists all the things that Sebastian, partly because of my love for you, partly because of your love for yogurt.

And then he lists all the things that sharing a soda with his loved one is better than. And, you know, he takes it one step further. He begins to question what good is all the research when it can't capture an experience with somebody you love? The works of the Impressionists, Futurism, Michelangelo, none of it compares. And what good does all the research of the Impressionists, Futurism, Michelangelo, none of it compares. And what good does all the research of the Impressionists do them

when they never got the right person to stand near the tree when the sun sank? None of them is as good as sharing a drink with someone you love. Exactly. Yeah, I mean, that makes sense to me. And I think it's important for us to remember that, you know, of course what we eat is important for our nutrition and our health and our lifespan, but it also matters when and where and with whom you're eating, right? Like, you could have the most amazing plant-based nutritionally adequate diet. But if you're eating it alone all the time,

that's not going to be great for you. When I think about the food memories that are most important to me, they honestly have less to do with the food than with the context, right? Like my favorite food memory is from when I was like seven years old. I was swimming in my cousin's outdoor pool in the Philippines with all of my little cousins. And one of the aunties had one of those grilled cheese makers by the side of the pool and she was just whipping out these little grilled sardine sandwiches and just handing them out to us fresh out of the pool and we would be so hungry and it was just so warm and salty. And that to me was the happiest food moment. And that's a lot coming from you, a foodie.

Yeah, you know, give me the sardines on toast. Yeah, or you know, for me, every once in a while, a Coke. The poem has given me a lot of permission to remember that food isn't always just about its ingredients. It's also about ceremony and connection and delighting in what is shared. It seems they were all cheated of some marvelous experience, which is not going to go wasted on me, which is why I'm telling you about it. The marvelous experience of sharing a meal.

Not wasted on me either, Mr. O'Hara. And I will tell you and tell you and tell you about it. That's all for this episode of How to Age Up. This episode was hosted by me, Yasmin Tayek, and co-hosted and produced by Natalie Brennan. Our editors are Claudina Bade and Jocelyn Frank. Fact Check by Ena Alvarado. Our engineer is Rob Smirziak. Rob also composed some of the music for this show. The executive producer of audio is Claudina Bade and the managing editor

of audio is Andrea Valdez. Next time on How to Age Up. While we are the most age-diverse society we've ever been, we're simultaneously the most age segregated. What we can learn from intergenerational partnerships to age up together. We'll be back with you on Monday. To preserve democracy, one has to believe in it. To believe in democracy, one has to understand it. Where it came from. How it works. To believe in democracy, one has to understand it.

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