How to Talk to People - How to Talk to People: How to Make Small Talk

Episode Date: May 22, 2023

Making small talk can be hard—especially when you’re not sure whether you’re doing it well. But conversations are a central part of relationship-building.  In this first episode of How to Talk to People, we explore the psychological barriers to making good small talk and unravel the complexities of the mutual discomfort that comes with talking to people we don’t know well.  The social scientist Ty Tashiro and the hairstylists Erin Derosa and Mimi Craft help us understand what it means to integrate awkwardness into our pursuit of relationships. This episode is hosted by Julie Beck, produced by Rebecca Rashid, and edited by Jocelyn Frank and Claudine Ebeid. Fact-check by Ena Alvarado. Engineering by Rob Smierciak. The managing editor is Andrea Valdez. Special thanks to AC Valdez. Music by Tellsonic (“The Whistle Funk”), Ryan James Carr (“Botanist Boogie Breakdown”), and Arthur Benson (“Organized Chaos,” “She Is Whimsical”).  Talk to How to Talk to People—by “talk,” we mean write to us—at [e-mail]. To support this podcast, and get unlimited access to all of The Atlantic’s journalism, become a subscriber. Also: If you have any comments or suggestions about the show, submit feedback at theatlantic.com/listener-survey. We'd love to hear from you. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm Ann Applebaum. Over the past year, as I watched Donald Trump demand unprecedented new powers, I wondered, don't he and his team fear that these same powers could one day be used by a different administration and a different president to achieve very different goals? Well, maybe they are afraid. And maybe that's why they're using their new tools to change our institutions, even to alter the playing field in advance of midterm elections later this year, to make sure that they're using their new tools to change our institutions. their opponents can't win. Ultimately, destroying trust is the currency of autocrats. We could win, but we are very, very, very likely to lose if we keep treating this as business as usual. Reporting on the sweeping changes unfolding in our country and preparing you to think

about what might happen next. The new season of Autocracy in America, available now. We'll start like usual and talk about what you want to do with your hand. Right, yeah, like I do need to. Because he's a haircut. Yeah. Does this moment feel awkward to you? It doesn't, so I don't know if it should. Great news, great news.

If I'm in a five-minute conversation, I am like, what am I going to say next? What's the next thing that I should? Did I already talk about the weather? Did I already? And then I get real panicked. No, I feel like I can chat with anybody for like five minutes. And then if I run out of things to say in the middle, that's my fear. Because we are trapped here for the duration of this haircut.

I can't just do it like, well, it was so great to see you, got to run while you're holding my hair. Yeah. We could stop talking and I will try to put out like a comfortable, chill vibe. It's, you know, pretty common. Someone might say something like, oh, there's a really good vibe here. And to me, that is totally bewildering how they discern that vibe within a few seconds. Hi, I'm Julie Beck, a senior editor at The Atlantic. And I'm Rebecca Rashid, producer of the how-to series. This is How to Talk to People. Here at the Atlantic, I oversee the family

section, and I've also been reporting on friendship for many years now. So I think a lot about relationships and community, and I do see often that people struggle to form the close relationships that they really want. And I think one of the barriers to that is the dreaded small talk. So I think in this first episode, we have to figure out how does one even make small talk? How indeed? And what holds us back from the chit chat, from the conversations that help us build relationships? And what explains that tendency so many of us have to look down at our phones and avoid conversation

or hide in the corner at a party and only talk to the people we know. So we're better to do some research on this than to talk to the ultimate small talk experts at the hair salon. Hi, hi, hi, good to see you. I feel like, okay, the main thing that I need to ask you is when I'm sitting in this chair, do you even want to talk to me? Oh, yeah. You can be honest.

It wouldn't hurt my feelings if you didn't want to. I have to be here all day. Right. So I do need some entertainment. Okay. I can't. So I like talking to people. I like getting the hot goss.

Okay. Yeah. Classic hairdresser situation. I mean, it feels rude, but in my mind I've also wondered, like, would you actually be relieved if I was just on my phone the whole time and then you could have a break from like being on all the time, you know? That is totally fine with me. Like if you want to be on your phone, I do think of it that way.

Okay, great. I'll have a break. I'll just like think about my own things that are going on, organize my brain. I'm just glad that you're here. Most hairdressers are very much prepared to talk all day. I think. I don't know.

No? Julie, I can't stop thinking about how much fun we had with Erin DeRosa and Mimi Craft. at Sends Salon in Washington, D.C. Yeah, I mean, they are the women who actually do my hair, and it was very fun to get, like, a peek behind the scenes of what they're thinking the whole time. I feel like if you want to talk, that's amazing.

It is really entertaining and fun to have conversation and to have, like, good conversation, but if you don't want to talk, don't try to talk, because then it's, like, really hard to have a conversation, And then it's even more work to like keep it going and try to like fill the silence or whatever. And I'm very comfortable with silence and very comfortable just like doing my thing and, you know, someone else doing their thing. But if you do want to have a conversation, that's also always welcome. I'm curious.

What is it about small talk that makes you so nervous? I don't. Okay. To clarify, I don't know that it makes me nervous all the time. I think what's interesting about it is it's like you can't really get around it. Any relationship that you're going to have has to start with a conversation. And you usually start with like the safe topics, the small talk, the this, the that. So it's more a situation where I am trapped on the train with an acquaintance.

I don't know that well. And we have 20 minutes to fill and I got five minutes of material. If I'm getting my haircut or anywhere where you're just trapped with either an or a stranger for a long time. Pulling the shape up a little bit. Yeah. You like the layers longer. Longish.

But you still like to have enough. And you have to kind of navigate like how much are we going to talk to each other? What are we going to talk about? Would they rather I just left them alone? But we're both too polite to say so. I do get in my head a lot about that. And I find it very hard to relax sometimes if I am receiving a service. And like probably if I was just normal and like relaxed and enjoyed the situation,

it would make them more comfortable. Like, I'm probably putting off a vibe. It can be extra challenging when the terms of that relationship are not really established in any way. Like, just having a conversation with that person doesn't necessarily mean you're moving towards friendship. Yeah, you're right. Like, the kind of people that are in your life, but that relationship is not necessarily going to grow from what it already is. But you still need to interact with them. and perhaps semi-regularly and just like how do you approach that like the barista you see every day

and you know that she knows that you always get the ice vanilla latte and she knows that you know that she knows but you still just like order it freshly every time yes yes and you don't ever acknowledge anything do you both consider yourself extroverts no no no no hard no extreme no Well, then how do you sit here and make small talk all day every day? Does it exhaust you? I once heard that introverts like to have like one-on-one deeper conversations, whereas extroverts are more comfortable with like typical small talk. I am not interested in small talk.

I want to get right into the real talk immediately. and I definitely don't want to go to like a party honestly basically ever or be in a crowd where I have to like make small talk with a lot of people because that is exhausting to me. But having like deep connections and one-on-one like deeper conversations with people is I like that. And I'm good at it. Well, how do you define small talk then? For me, small talk is like, oh, it's cold out. Yeah, it's cold out.

Oh, do you like cold? No. Oh, yeah, me too. And that's like really boring. Oh, are you, how was your weekend? Good. Oh, cool. I want to know what happened.

Well, are you coming in hot with your clients? Like, do you believe in God? You know what I mean? Like, it is like lighter. Yeah. I mean, sometimes I'm coming in hot. Sometimes, like, if I'm like, oh, how was your weekend? Great.

I will be like, did you, did what happened? Did anything? I will usually say, like, did anything crazy happen? Did anything crazy happen? Did anybody go to the hospital? Like, I want to get, like, sure. straight into it. If somebody was like at a party, you can tell when somebody comes in on a Saturday morning and they were at a party, you know, the night before. And you really are like,

what happened last night? What went down? I do like getting straight into the details. I guess I'll also say like, I don't come in, hey, how's your hair? Do you believe in God? It's more like, it's more like somehow it'll come up somewhere in the conversation, you know, you'll be talking about their family or like their parents or whatever. And then it's like, oh, how were you raised? Were you raised religiously? It sort of evolves. And then I will say, well, do you believe in God?

So that's a real example that has happened. Oh, yeah, for sure, for sure. But I like to have conversation like that with people. And that's like one of my favorite things about this job is having real conversations like that. She gets the very most dirt out of. people because she is so genuinely curious that even if somebody maybe was not going into a conversation thinking they were going to reveal a detail she will get it out of them because of her

genuine curiosity I will yeah that is like a lot of people are sort of in denial about what is happening in their situation and because we've heard so many stories that are similar and we are like no this is what's really happening. And we're like, girl, no. Yeah. Well, this is what's happening. This is what's happening. And then, like, come to find out.

Like, maybe they're next is or there's a visit after that. They're like, that is what's happening. Because we, that is the value in good small talk and conversation is that you learn from other people's experiences. And so then those things, everything repeats itself. Like, nothing's really a new thing. So somebody comes in and you're like, I know what's happening there. I think small talk gets a lot of hate, but even if it's a little boring, it serves a purpose.

So those like basic neutral topics that people love to hate on, like, how's the weather? Like, sure is a hot one out there. Like, those serve a purpose of being something neutral that can smooth the path of our interactions. But I think sometimes my producer brain that wants to cut to the story and I'm not always as delicate in the way I, phrase my questions. And my intent is not to be offensive, but maybe just to connect with the person in the way I know best or maybe be respectfully personal and try to bridge that gap. So you, your approach to small talk then is to like try to get personal as quickly as possible. Not uncomfortably so, but I do struggle with the repeated, how's the weather with someone I see every day.

It's like let's move this conversation along. We've seen each other. We have some basic context of who each other is. I feel like I thrive on that surface level. Just the sort of Seinfeldian observational comedy of like, these are things that are happening around us that like I can remark upon and do a little bit with you and then like tip my hat and walk away. Once we transition to something that is a little more personal,

that is where I feel like a little bumpy. In our conversation with Erin and Mimi, it really wasn't that awkward surface level kind of small talk that I think people fear. Right. And it seems like they were really naturally cognizant of people's different comfort levels and what would be an appropriate story to share. And they were sort of able to read the room and read the space of the conversation. And, you know, they're experts at this. They do this every day. Yeah. Reading the room is a skill for sure. And I think for those of us who always, aren't quite so practiced as they are. I wanted to understand more so what can cause a seemingly innocuous conversation to take a turn for the awkward

and how we navigate it when that happens. And what just the barriers are to getting out of our own heads and just chatting. Tai Tashiro is a social scientist who writes about awkwardness and his book called Awkward, the science of why we're socially awkward and why that's awesome, explores a lot of these social and behavioral trends specific to adults in the United States. And he helps people think through how to be in social spaces and feel just a bit more confident. He could also probably help me share this intro in a slightly less awkward way. One of the great things about studying awkwardness is that everybody has had an awkward moment.

Let's say, for example, you're giving a presentation and you have an undone zipper. That's super awkward, super embarrassing, but it's actually not that big of a deal. It's just an uncomfortable deviation from actually a small social expectation. If you had spinach in your teeth during a first date, the same thing. It's actually a really small kind of social expectation, but we have this really powerful emotional reaction to it. Some of my close friends had moved to new cities, and I would go visit them,

and we'd go out to parties or might go to a bar or something. And some of these friends were awkward. And, you know, I'd watch them in these social interactions, meeting new people, and it was just heartbreaking, because they would be their regular, awkward self, and you could see the other folks losing interest and saying, I got to go get another drink or something. Yeah, just that sad sort of excusing themselves for no good reason.

And I thought to myself like, well, this is heartbreaking for my friend who's trying to make new acquaintances or new friends in the city. But I thought it's also too bad for the other person. Because here's this awkward person who has tremendous moral character, who's super interesting, who's been, an amazing friend to me, but they ruled out any chance of future social interaction based on, you know, three or four minutes of kind of chit-chat. And so I had this thought, like, if the awkward person could skip the first five minutes of a social interaction, I actually think

they'd be all right. What exactly was it that your friend was doing that made people want to leave and go get another drink? What was so awkward about it? This friend was, is still a space invader. So in the U.S., the typical amount of space he gives someone is about 18 inches. Oh, I thought you meant like the video. Okay. Oh, no. Yeah. No, not that old school, but he's a space invader.

So he's probably about 10 inches, which is way too close. And that makes people feel uncomfortable. He also has trouble with voice modulation, which can certainly happen with awkward people. Speaks a little bit too loud probably for other people's comfort. But, you know, I guess when you take a step, step back from it, my thought is, you know, who cares? Like, if you can get past those little clumsy moments at the start, you find this, you know, really wonderful person. So, you know, I just wanted to see, like, are there ways that the awkward person can navigate those awkward moments a little

bit more smoothly? But on the other hand, for people who aren't awkward, can they have a little more empathy for the awkward person's situation. So in your book, you write that some people are more prone to awkwardness than others. Where do you think you fall? Oh, boy. I'm pretty awkward. So when I was a kid, I was very awkward. And I think in adulthood, I can pass for socially fluent in most situations, but I certainly still have my moments. Yeah, you're doing great. You're doing great. So with that in mind, I'm curious, can you just walk me through what goes through your mind when you say enter a party where you only know one or two people? Like, what is the strategy that runs through your mind at that time? So, you know, before the social event occurs, I do get some

social anxiety. I think maybe the difference for someone who's awkward is these feelings of anxiety aren't irrational. So I'll give more thought to small details, like what am I going to wear, what would be an appropriate thing to bring, what time I'm like I get there. So I just have a little self-talk before I go into these situations. I call it my mental preparation. And I'll just say, hey, you don't know anybody. You're nervous about that. And that's okay. You've been any situations before and you can do it, but I need to have a more assertive attitude. then would be natural for me. When I get there, there's kind of this funny thing that happened.

So let's say I go with a friend, and we walk into the party, and it's in full swing. It's, you know, pretty common. Someone might say something like, oh, there's a really good vibe here. There's a really good vibe in here. And to me, that is totally bewildering how they discern that vibe within a few seconds. So awkward people, when they enter a social situation, they're not all at once kind of evaluating what's going on.

Instead, what they're doing is they're looking at individual pieces of information and then kind of putting it together almost like a puzzle to figure out what the situation is like and how they should behave. So it takes longer for me to read the room, I guess, and then feel comfortable enough to get in there and interact smoothly with other people. And then when I get into it, I just, try to be honest, actually.

And so I would approach people if you had the uncomfortable situation where you've talked to somebody and they've moved on to something else and you're standing there by yourself. You know, I'll just approach a group and I'll say, hey, I'm Thai, I'm new here. Do you mind if I join you? And that might sound a little daunting to some folks,

but I always find that people are really receptive to that. It took a little bit of boldness maybe to say something like that, And I think people appreciate that. So why do people feel awkward in that awkward moment where they've broken one minor expectation? Is it the same thing as social anxiety or is it a unique feeling? Yeah, so social anxiety is more of a forward-looking kind of emotion. So when we feel social anxiety, the core of that is we have some irrational fear that we're going to mess up or we're going to make a fool of ourselves in a social situation.

With awkwardness, it's more of this just in the moment, very present kind of feeling. feeling and it even comes along with things like a racing heart or your muscles might tense. Of course, one of the hallmarks is that you might blush, right? And people usually feel horrible about that. They think I've just made this awkward moment worse by blushing. So blushing actually sends a signal, hey, I just did something awkward. I feel bad about that. And I'm blushing. I'm sending you this social signal. And people actually really appreciate that. So awkward moments aren't the worst thing in the world, but they can be recovered from almost all the time. And actually just being honest about the awkward moment that just took place can actually be beneficial for building some trust with another person.

So do you think that you've gotten more comfortable with socializing over time, or do you just feel like you've learned strategies? I think instead I've learned strategies first, and then the social comfort came after that. So let me give you a quick example maybe from childhood about some of these strategies I had to learn. Sure. So when we would go to Wendy's to get a hamburger, my parents would park the car, and they would turn around, and they say, tie us time to mentally prepare. And I would shake my head, yes, because I knew exactly what this meant. and what it was was this kind of Socratic dialogue where they would ask me a series of questions

and it would help me prepare for what the expectations would be in the social situation and also help me think about what I need to do with my social behaviors to handle it well and appropriately. So they'd say things like, well, where are we? I'd say, well, we're at Wendy's and it's almost like a surprise. Like, oh, yeah, here we are. We're at Wendy's. What's the first thing you need to look for when you step? step inside the door. And I would say, well, I need to look and see if there's a line.

And that's because sometimes I would go in and just shoot straight to the front. And not because I was trying to cut or cheat. And this is hard for some non-awkward people to believe, but because I didn't see the line or didn't register with me, I was so narrowly focused on the hamburger and the fries that I would just not see all of the social information off to the side. So once I was in line, you know, I need to figure out what to order. I need to look the cashier in the eye, say please, say thank you, not whip around with my tray and spill my drink all over the people behind me like I had done a couple times previously. So this would happen, not just once, this happened dozens of times for various kinds of social situations. and my folks would need me to get into the habit of thinking about,

hey, what's the goal in the situation? What are the small expectations you're going to encounter? And then what are the behaviors that you need to execute to be socially fluent in the situation? So I think with most kids, you could say, hey, make sure you're polite when you're ordering or something like that, and they would think of all the little behaviors that go into that. But for the awkward kid, that's not intuitive.

And so you just need to break it down into the component parts. And once you do that, you know, I was pretty good. I mean, if you walked with me into it Wendy's now, I'm pretty smooth. I'm Ann Applebaum. Over the past year, as I watched Donald Trump demand unprecedented new powers, I wondered, don't he and his team fear that these same powers could one day be used by a different administration and a different president to achieve very different goals? Well, maybe they are afraid.

And maybe that's why they're using their new tools to change our institutions, even to alter the playing field in advance of midterm elections later this year, to make sure their opponents can't win. Ultimately, destroying trust is the currency of autocrats. We could win, but we are very, very, very likely to lose if we keep treating this as business as usual. reporting on the sweeping changes unfolding in our country and preparing you to think about what might happen next. The new season of Autocracy in America, available now.

For conversations with people. Like, I didn't always know how to get into a conversation and connect with somebody. I just learned it when I started doing hair. And for people who don't really know how to do it, I kind of was thinking, is there like a go-to question or something? but it really depends on the setting. Yeah. So do you actually want to or feel comfortable talking about yourself with clients? Or do you actively like keep the focus on them and their stories because you maybe

don't want to share? I feel comfortable. I will share anything. Sometimes I feel like I don't have anything that interesting to share. And so then I don't want to talk about myself because like, oh, are you taking vacations? No. Okay, cool. A lot of people really are that is there.

number one personal question. Do you have any trips planned? Yeah. Oh, I'm very guilty of that. I'm guilty of that. Because it's like, it's not too personal. Right. But it maybe it gives us something to talk about. Yeah. It's my conversation filler when I have like pretty much nothing left, I say, do you have any trips planned? Because I'm like, we got a like, we got to drum something up here. It could really go somewhere where you're talking about a trip and like fun things. But it all the potential for a dead end is it's high. That's how you know you're scraping the bottom of the barrel, I guess. Yeah.

Sort of like talking about the weather, you know. Yeah. Okay. That's how I feel. I'm going to be self-conscious about that question from now on. Sorry. I don't know. No, no.

It's mean to make you feel that way. I feel like, yeah. But that does remind me of something I wanted to ask too, because I feel like a lot of what we've been talking about is like ways that the small talk manifests like very uniquely to your job. And so how much do you feel like the skills that you all have here translate into the real world versus what is pretty specific to like this interaction and this relationship? I feel like it translates exactly the same, like immediately. I think you're really good at that.

I struggle with that because sometimes being in the hair salon, I'm really in my comfort zone in this weird way. and I'll see the same person at like the coffee shop or something and I sort of stumble on my words and I sort of stumb I don't I I I get like a little awkward and I think that's more of my I get some social anxiety going on if it's people I don't know and this goes back to your introvert versus extrovert question if it's people I don't know I can do that like small talk thing to an extent but then I I can't go all the I can't get all the way because it's a bigger setting. There's more people. I'm really good in that like sort of one-on-one moment. Like even the hair salon, it really is, I think, like a safe space in a community because who am I going to tell? I'm not so invested that telling me is going to have like any major impact in their personal life.

So they can get things off their chest. and feel safe that it's not like a risk. Right, right. And I do agree if you're not having those relationships in your community, you are missing out on just sort of like, it's personal, but it's casual and there's... Yeah, I don't know. I don't know how we get to a place where we just accept that feeling awkward won't kill us.

Yeah. But I'm not there yet. I'm curious if part of the stress too is that once you start a conversation with someone, and if you do start to feel awkward and maybe you're not comfortable being honest right away about the fact that you're feeling awkward and you want to dip out of the conversation, it can be hard to do that. For me, a situation that can cause some anxiety is if I am trapped with, say, like, an acquaintance on a train, and maybe that train ride is half an hour long.

And what are we going to do? And I would love to tell you about a man that I once knew, an acquaintance of mine from college, who I truly would not remember at all, were it not for this moment. He was a friend of a friend. And one day, we were both on the same train going down to Chicago together. I went to school outside of Chicago. And so this was like a good 40, 45-minute train ride. And he pulled the most, like, amazing Uno Reverse Ninja trick I've ever.

seen in conversation to this day, which is, you know, we got on the train and I'm like, oh, God, okay, I have to talk to him because we know each other. And so we did the very classic like, hey, how's it going? How's the one thing that I know about you? It's still good. How's the one thing that I know about you? It's fine. And then we ran out of material. Oh, oh. And he just said, it's been so great talking to you. I'm going to go read my book now. And then we both sat down on opposite sides of the train and we read our books and we took that half hour, train ride down to Chicago, and when I got off the train, we did like a friendly wave. And I actually don't think we ever saw each other again. But I've thought about this man so regularly for the past

like 10 years, because he just handled that interaction in such a smooth way that you almost never see. I think we feel kind of more awkward than ever about these kinds of things, meeting new people or the conversation in the elevator. And it seems to stop people. Why do you say you? think that we're more fearful of awkwardness than we used to be? I think maybe some of it has to do with the fact that, you know, we don't have to interact with people as much as we used to. We can do it through our social media or we can get absorbed in our phones or stay in the comfort of our home and stream some show. There's all these outs from actually being face to face with people and going through those uncomfortable moments

of trying to get to know somebody for the first time or dealing with the prospect that they might reject us, that maybe they don't want to hang out. And that's a scary thing as well. So I think there's these alternatives about how we can spend our time that are kind of semi-social or faux-social, but I think that's actually damaging

because it keeps us from doing the hard work of getting face-to-face and actually working to build a friendship. What do you mean by semi-social, faux-social? Well, you know, if you're texting back and forth with somebody, that's fine. But it's obviously not as good, right, as sitting down with them for a long dinner and getting into just a deep conversation. And same thing with social media. We've kind of put our best foot forward on social media.

And we might have some nice interactions, but they're not as gratifying as a face-to-face interaction with somebody. Is the texting and the faux social interactions to some degree maybe like our way of preparing to go to Wendy's? Yeah, definitely. That's a good point. An online dating, for example, you might send messages back and forth or whatever, and that kind of gives you a sense of the person, gets the interaction rolling a little bit before you actually meet up

when all you really want to do is get face to face and figure out if there might be some kind of chemistry here. But even in platonic situations, it's a situation. same thing. We can get stuck mentally preparing for something that should have happened, you know, a long time ago. Yeah. Well, one consequence of this fear of awkwardness is people go to parties or they go to bars and they only talk to people they already know. Have you noticed that in your life? Oh, for sure. You know, another thing kind of makes me just want to go over and say things. I have no business saying to other people. Like what? I just want to say like, go meet other people.

You know, you're standing here in your group of three you came in with and you look semi sad, you know, go talk to these other people you want to talk to. So how can we break out of that? Do we really need to break out of that? Or is it fine to just embrace the safety of hanging out with my existing friends at a party? My bias would be, I don't think that's okay. You know, there's all this disconnection going on. So the average person could benefit from more friends. And certainly, benefit from more friends that they've built some quality intimacy with and they feel they can go to in a time of need. So if we go with that perspective, then yeah, you know, we should break out of our shell and we should cross that junior high dance floor of sorts and go talk to somebody new knowing that this person might reject us or knowing that the interaction might be a little bit awkward, but that's okay. I mean, to some degree, it's a justified fear.

you probably will feel awkward. Like you actually aren't going to make it through this life without being awkward in social situations. But I think like Ty made me realize that part of what makes things so awkward sometimes is trying to pretend that they're not. Like all of his advice would boil down to just be honest. Like just go up to those people that you don't know at the party

and say, I don't know anyone at the party. Can I hang out with you? And like I would never in a million years have thought to say that to somebody. Like I would probably try to be like nonchalant by the punch bowl and like sidle my way into a conversation and hope it was just cool and nobody noticed that I didn't really belong there. You know, some of what is really challenging about small talk is it's so situational. Small talk with someone you admire on a train is different than small talk on a first date. And then there's also each individual person's reactions and like whether they want to be left alone and how open they. are to conversation and how awkward you feel and how awkward they feel. But I think there can be

a middle path where you read the room a bit. Maybe you have some questions in your back pocket. And, you know, there's certainly times where I leave my headphones in and I'm looking at my phone and I don't really want to be spoken to either. But I think we have to bear in mind what we miss out on if we do that all the time. Yes. And I think that's exactly. what I wonder is if what gets lost is all of us getting used to not trying to start up a conversation with anyone out of fear or out of fear that it won't lead anywhere. It doesn't mean anything. Yeah. I remember Mimi and Aaron talking a lot about how fueled they actually are by all the conversations that they have at work and like not just purely for entertainment value but also like feeling like these conversations are

meaningful and they are bringing something unique and special into their lives, although it was reassuring for me to hear that they struggle with it sometimes too. I was surprised by that. Yeah. I know. It's just that they were interested in people and just like having a genuine curiosity for the person that's in front of you fuels conversation. As meta as that is, we got to talk about it. We got to talk. On that note, Becca, it's been so great making a podcast. with you, and I'm going to go read my book now. That's all for this week's episode of How to Talk to People. This episode was produced by me, Rebecca Rashid, and hosted by Julie Beck.

Editing by Jocelyn Frank and Claudina Bade. Fact-check by Anna Alvarado. Our engineer is Rob Smerciak. I'm Anne Applebaum. Over the past year, as I watched Donald Trump demand unprecedented new powers, I wondered, don't he and his team fear that these same powers could one day be used by a different administration and a different president to achieve very different goals? Well, maybe they are afraid. And maybe that's why they're using their new tools to change our

institutions, even to alter the playing field in advance of midterm elections later this year, to make sure their opponents can't win. Ultimately, destroying trust is the current of autocrats. We could win, but we are very, very, very likely to lose if we keep treating this as business as usual. Reporting on the sweeping changes unfolding in our country and preparing you to think about what might happen next. The new season of Autocracy in America, available now.