How We Got Away with Murder - Liza Weil on Bonnie Winterbottom, Shondaland, and Babysteps

Episode Date: May 28, 2026

Matt and Jack welcome Liza Weil, known for West Wing, Gilmore Girls, Westworld, a million other things, and quite possibly the most Shondaland actor of all time, but best known to this audience as the one and only Bonnie Winterbottom.Liza opens up about coming to HTGAWM with a three-year-old at home and a serious case of imposter syndrome; she had no expectations about how well the show would do, didn't test for the role, and had to get on a plane within days of booking it. She talks about her long history with Shondaland and why she was afraid a lot of the time on HTGAWM, but okay once the cameras rolled.She also gets into how she originally auditioned for Rory on Gilmore Girls, the devastation of losing community when projects end, moving to NY and LA with no formal training and no backup plan, and how she's finally learning to get out of her own way. Plus, how something feeling bad and the end product being good are two entirely different things, and what Lunar Sway cracked open for her personally. One for the books!We want to hear from you! Send us your show and episode questions with the chance to be read on the air during an episode: [e-mail] Matt & JackIG @jackfalaheeTIKTOK @jackfalahee X @RestingPlatypus REDDIT u/ItsMeJackFalaheeIG @mattmcgorry TIKTOK @matt.mcgorry X @MattMcGorry Facebook: @ActorMattMcGorryThank you to our sponsors:Hero Bread: This year, hit your goals without giving up your favorite bready dishes. Hero Bread is offering 10% off your order. Go to hero.co and use code JACKANDMATT at checkout.Omaha Steaks: Go to OmahaSteaks.com and use promo code JACKANDMATT at checkout for $35 off. Minimum purchase may apply.This podcast is brought to you by Podcast Nation.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

hey everyone my name is matt mccorry and i played the character asher millstone on how to get away with murder and i'm jack fallahy and i played connor walsh on that very same tv show and this is the how we got away with murder podcast what's up brother hey brother happy tuesday i realized listening back that we we got to change up the our greetings to one another because it's always the same it's the same thing it is it is what can we do sometimes in life you take the path of least resistance and sometimes it's a hey brother in fact many times it is apparently that's right how you doing i am all right i'm continuing the saga of new sleep medication and fatigue um which has been kind of brutal but i had a really nice weekend i got to

swim in the ocean which i don't normally do um and look up at the stars and like a porpoise yeah like a porpoise remember when we swam in the ocean in costa rica and there were like a billion stars out yeah at night i remember that was so romantic that was a good time yeah that was the same night we I think there was some like we were in a dance club and there was like some poles we were dancing to yeah that's so fun yeah how are you doing I'm pretty good yeah I'm pretty good I just did some gardening my sunflowers are coming in which is very exciting sick I've never gardened before so this is a new adventure yeah not really I mean a little bit but not like not from zero you know yeah right so yeah there's there's beginning to

sprout which is fucking rad i didn't think it was gonna work but it turns out when you put seeds in the ground sometimes they they sprout so cool yeah you're a father i am i'm a father to what looks like five dwarf sunflowers right now so nice do they have seeds that you can eat like the ones you get like at like the deli uh it's a good question like what they if they process those in any way i mean i think you could just eat them like they obviously just like stuff the flour in your mouth yeah yeah that's right yeah yeah but yeah i think that yeah i think once they like die at the end of the season like there will theoretically be seeds i can eat wow okay that's how it works i don't again i don't know anything about gardening so we'll find out sure

tune in sure find out yeah i'm impressed but you you've always had a um like a resourcefulness around you know i don't know just understanding different things like that so i'm impressed but that it also it makes sense i think it's just me trying to battle anxiety demons at all time that i'm like i'll try this new hobby sure this will make me feel something that's fair that's fair at least you're good at it yeah sure i appreciate that man we have an incredible guest today i'm very excited me too yo tombien um also like i mean obviously we've said this before this is the best part about doing this is getting to talk to our old friends but it's also been nice just like now talking to katie a little bit more often and talking to carla and charlie and you

know elfie's sending me like nine minute voice notes against my will no just kidding i'm consenting to those but you know what i mean it's like it's just so nice to like yeah have these people back in our lives yeah basking in the joy that's right so true that's right well we speaking of joy speaking of joy we have a bundle a bundle of joy with us today that you would know from west wing from gilmore girls from marvelous miss mazel uh the cleaning lady west world Blumhouse is The Passenger, which is too scary for me to watch. They have the upcoming Lunar Sway, which I'm very excited about. And maybe we will talk about this,

but are they the most Shondaland actor of all time? They are on Scandal, Private Practice, Grey's Anatomy, and you know her as Bonnie Winterbottom on How to Get It With Murder. Bye, Zawal! Woo! Hello. Hi, guys. How are you?

Hello. Hi. Hi, hi. Welcome, welcome. welcome to the podcast virtually imagining us have like a like a hallway for you like to dance down with just with our voices though gosh thank god you don't have that yeah this is just swell yeah this is better okay great it's great to see you guys thank you so much for for having me yeah thanks for doing this it's great listening it's been a it's been a real

delight to uh to hear you guys reminisce and all the special guests it's been it's been a very special thing how how's your memory around like are you listening to it and remembering things with more clarity than matt and i i wouldn't say necessarily more clarity but there's yeah there's it's it's surprising to me i think how much i've forgotten because i think right i tend to think that i'm never gonna forget that i'm gonna have a hard time like revisiting the show because i'll remember the day and and not be able to drop into the story um that's not true i forgot right so much of it so uh which is a pretty wild thing i guess that's part of i don't know getting older as well it's all yeah there's there's a decline i'm on the decline

i don't know about that but it is you know i mean it is 12 years ago so i think yeah it's reasonable that we've forgotten some things yeah it's just i don't know if you find it but we i kind of find it a blessing at times to have forgotten all the specifics so that at least when i'm re-watching it that i'm like engaged in a different way you know and i'm i'm sort of totally yeah forgetting all the other stuff or you know not all the other stuff but enough of it that i can be like immersed in the story and not be like oh i remember this dance set and i was really tired or you know what i mean took a nap yeah that sort of thing yeah yeah it's really nice to have that perspective and just drop into the story I've forgotten

complete storylines most of them yeah yeah I think it's going to get more and more in the later seasons too I mean the first season I feel like there's a lot of adrenaline it's and you know it's like every moment feels like it's its own thing I feel like I'm very curious to see by season three four five six yeah what's going to be there I yeah yeah maybe I'm curious too if those seasons will actually come back more easily since they are yeah since they are more recent but chronologically yeah I I'm like I I kind of agree with you Eliza that I I in filming season one I was like well obviously I'm gonna remember this experience for the rest of my life and now I'm just like man oh man is it blurry but such is life I guess yeah I guess it's just part

of forward motion yeah which is necessary anyway so we're gonna start since you are actually listening to the podcast you kind of know how this goes but you know we like to sort of get a baseline of where people were in their lives how did they come to how to get away with murder and yours i think is particularly interesting given your relationship to shondaland but i know we would love to hear a little bit about that, where you were, where you were in your career, emotionally, mentally, you know, whatever you want to tell us. Yeah, it was an interesting time for me. I had a three year old little girl at the time. And I think I was sort of just figuring out how to find my way back into maybe working again,

which had been like a little um you know it was an adjustment I think and I was I guess lucky in a way to have time to just be a mom for for those first couple years I did have like a little bit of a history with with Shondaland like before I had my daughter I guest starred on Grey's Anatomy in private practice and then I've told this story before about auditioning for Scandal and Jojo is very very young then and I think that that was maybe part of why that went sideways although I've told the story about it being like a very bad audition but ultimately like I did end up being on that show yeah yeah but just in like a different capacity which was a very lovely switcheroo but the scandal audition was like a debilitating panic attack where I was like outside

of my body narrating like everything that was happening oh god i don't think i've had a panic attack in that capacity before usually i'm able to like think that i'm covering it i think i remember being at a bar in philly and you telling the story and like really imprinting in my mind it's just i have small little blips of memories but i remember hearing that and being like oh my god that sounds terrifying yeah yeah yeah so yes that wasn't great but they were creative enough and generous enough and forgiving enough to sort of i guess look at that and be like oh maybe she could be like the person on the show that's not doing well mentally so yes I got to be Amanda Tanner on Scandal who is the the young woman that

accuses the president of having an affair with her which causes a lot of problems in the first couple episodes and that was a very good time and that was like I think what sort of made me feel like maybe i could work a little bit more and try to still be a presence consistently in my child's life but i do feel like the the blessing of the shondaland thing is that everything sort of felt like baby steps like sort of gradual progressions which i think i'm much more comfortable with than like just sort of finding myself on a on a show like what your experience must have been jack to just go from like yeah right into it which is can be very destabilizing totally yes my how to get away with murder was just a regular audition experience and i did i

felt coming into it like i had to sort of make up for you know being a total weirdo in the audition room so i was i was just hoping to like get through it yeah sure yeah you know just be a total mess which i did and then that that sort of felt like a triumph to me i think just because i didn't like completely unravel which then sort of became a thing of like was that a good audition or is it just did i just feel good that i like didn't die right in the room yeah but then i did sort of feel like it went well pete was in the room betsy was in the room linda lowey was in the room but but was early on i think matt you maybe you were already cast but certainly i didn't know about viola and i think that there was about like a six to eight week period where i didn't hear anything

i think i always thought that it was much longer than that i think i've told the story before and said like six months that's not true it was six years it was like six or seven weeks because i think they were also waiting if it wasn't viola then they were probably gonna do like a diverse hire for for the bonnie role so i think they had to sort of figure all of that stuff out this was just an audition this wasn't a test it was just an audition yeah yeah and yeah i mean i think we had heard like the feedback was good but that was kind of it yeah wow and then i think five weeks in they said something about they said that it was viola and they weren't sure if there was going to be a test and then i think ultimately they just ended up showing my tape because michael offer

was already in philadelphia so i was lucky to not have to do a test oh wow like a you know what is a a traditional test i guess yeah yeah the auditorium of suits right yeah um and then i think getting to philadelphia was like very quick it was like i got the job and then i think i had to like get on the plane right within a few days right and i wasn't sure like how long i was going to be there i think i was like oh it's this role is it's i could probably do this in like two or three days i'm not going to be gone very long but they couldn't tell me like the one-liner or anything and then i checked into the hotel and they were like we have you with us for 28 days wow god what and I was like yeah so I didn't have my I had not figured out like

child care and I think it was did you bring like clothes for a month no I didn't but I think I I mean I can be kind of a heavy packer for jobs in terms of like lotions and potions yeah things like that yeah your apothecary and I guess I figured like I was not going to be in my own clothes for that long I guess although I was because I did ultimately only work like a few days I just had to be there yeah it's crazy I'm newly appreciating the challenge from what you're telling me of yeah being a parent and being like it's different for me when I'm like I'm like I was 28 or whatever I'm however old and I was like yeah I'm just gonna get on the train and go yeah you know into Philadelphia for however long versus like having a human being that you're responsible for in that

way yeah it's wild yeah and then i figured out for her to come to philadelphia with like our our nanny at the time and she spent like a few days there when i wasn't working and she had a really bad cough and we had to give her antibiotics but she was very resistant to take um and i remember just sort of like having to like do a lot of bribes and maneuvering and she was screaming and crying and Charlie was like right across the hall so I was like did you hear yeah just want you to know like everything's okay sorry yeah yeah don't worry yeah yeah yeah I mean Carla we had her on as guests and she started to talk about this a little bit just you know and Matt and I have mentioned this but like how weird it was to watch the pilot and think like oh you and

charlie are like the age that we are now in the pilot and yeah carla's mentioned that a little bit like now with three children like the calculus you have to make as a parent in jobs i mean even even our show relocating you know it was supposed to shoot in philly and we shot in in la because viola obviously had her daughter as well and didn't want to like up uproot her life yeah but But yeah, I can't, I can't imagine what that mentally, like already going to do a pilot is such a stressful thing. And for you as like a veteran actor, knowing more of like what was at stake, I'm sure you already had, you know, a bunch of emotions and thoughts kicking around.

And then on top of that, you have to like manage being a mother and a parent. Yeah. I think a lot of that stuff is like in hindsight, I guess, realizing like, oh, that was kind of a lot. I think when it was happening, I think that there's probably like a little bit of conditioning and to think like, well, you just, that's just what it is. Like you just have to like figure it out. And like people have been, women have been working in mothers for years and years and years. And so, yeah, I think that I was just trying to, like, keep my head down and figure it out. But I do realize now that, like, internally, there was probably a lot.

Yeah, I'm sure. I was navigating. I'd be curious what your, like, knee-jerk reaction was to being cast on the pilot. And once you started to see all the pieces coming together, because Charlie talked about this a bit when we interviewed him, where he like he very he was very aware of like that we had caught lightning in a bottle did you have that feeling going into it or was this for you like well it's a tv pilot like you never know you know good things don't get picked up all the time like what what was your i guess take on just like the job as a as a whole and had you done by the way at that point like a number of other pilots

like that maybe hadn't gone or not really i mean no obviously like you know gilmore girls is an extensive run and I know from my own personal experience that the first two shows I was on were like very successful and that definitely colored my perception of like oh this is just you know this is easy this is great yeah just curious yeah how that was for you yeah no I hadn't had a lot of experiences with like doing pilots that didn't go like Gilmore Girls was really my only like serialized consistent experience um and that felt very different because it wasn't popular when it was on really like it was i mean it was it was popular and it was popular enough to stay on the air but it didn't um it's like become more of a thing right

um now frankly than it was when when we were on it which i think was fortunate for for all of us i also i think inherently have a sensibility of like being like hyper realistic and and trying to just like I don't I don't like have assumptions about things doing well or yeah which I think is probably something I'm trying I could probably be a little bit more on the other side but that balance could be a little bit better but I think uh yeah I think I I also inherently am very like self-critical and I don't think like had a lot of confidence in myself um so I think I was very much just like I can't I feel so fortunate to have this job and I think the way that Bonnie initially presented I was like this actually might just I might just be fine like standing

in a corner with my arms crossed like handing a file to somebody like this actually might be great for me like as a new that's interesting mom and like that might just be like all i can handle at this point so like what a lovely yeah little did you know yeah literally did you know pete was gonna fuck you up right um oh my god so yeah no i didn't i didn't think that it was that i was like a part of a thing yet yeah that's fair that's fair yeah man i yeah i'd be curious like how if at all like your experience on Gilmore Girls influenced like even how how you maybe interacted with us as like younger actors like was was there any of that because it felt like from the beginning you like took a lot of care around us like you were very empathic in how

you were on set and like I always felt like I could go to you and like you know crash out if needed like it felt very safe and I don't know if if your experience like having been a younger actor on a show influenced at all like maybe how you interfaced with with us as as younger actors at the time well first of all that's very nice of you to say I'm glad that that that's nice to hear that that was your experience yeah definitely i feel like i mean i think that gilmore girls certainly informed i guess like a an awareness of like what it can feel like gilmore girls was also a very special situation because we were doing like 22 hour days for six years oh my god 22 episodes oh my god yeah and i didn't that was like i thought that that's just kind of like what

it was whoa i didn't really know until how to get away with murder of like oh i guess that's not normal normal right it doesn't have to be like that wow i it was also i guess my first time sort of being an older person on a show but i think i also have a thing with sets where i feel like in the like ecosystem of the set like everybody is ageless yeah like we're all the same yeah and then i think i would find myself like remembering like oh right like yeah these guys are little i i was listening to a man what podcast was i can't remember but i i remember them they were interviewing an actor it might have been jake johnson who was talking about how like on sets they they make all actors into babies like you you know what i mean like you have to

like tell people you're going to the bathroom like there's constantly someone like following you to like get your little snack at crafty like so it does in a way it is a kind of an equalizer that you know they're like here come the dumb actors like we got to take care of it make sure they have a little warming coat like yes as a species like we're yeah very fragile yeah exactly yeah that's that's interesting yeah but you're so curious to see also like what the audition actually looked like even like for scandal like you know like i i know that it feels like you know it was one way but i know you know you've probably heard this listening to the podcast but jack and i often talk about just how incredibly talented you are as an actor and i just imagine

on your worst day you know that it was still pretty fucking good yeah i also i don't know i sometimes i find too that like when i have like an extreme amount of anxiety and in depending on the role and stuff like i am kind of like masking that but sometimes it also just appears that you're kind of like masking something that kind of just works you know it like works because like the characters mask and something or something like that but anyway i just wanted to to say that you know we've been saying it a lot to each other but just to get to say to you you know like how how really talented you are yeah yeah thanks guys yeah i appreciate that i mean it was like a you know everybody on this show is really talented like it was like a very formidable group of people

i think that was a thing that i could recognize from the get-go about it like this is a very special assemblage of people yeah where i think that was such a saving grace a lot of the time like when things did get more challenging like in the material i always felt like it was going to be okay like on the day it was going to be okay like once i was with whoever was in that scene it would be fine but i think the anticipation of doing it was like yeah very very scary every single time like it i never wasn't i would think i was afraid a lot of the time on that show is that right yeah i mean i and i think i mean i i've heard a few people talking about i guess their their sort of sensibility around acting and and how they approach it like changing

and i i feel similarly in that i think i've just now maybe like figured out how to not be so like self-critical or like getting in my own way yeah how does that present itself like is that is that something that's happening like when you're literally on set or like before or after a job like has it changed the way you work it's only it's like a very recent thing i have to say like that's awesome yeah i mean it will we'll see like how consistent it is but i feel i feel confident yeah i think it presents in in all the ways i think you know and i think that was probably like you know realizing like you got to find more joy in this like if if this is really what you're doing with your life like you should probably enjoy it more than you know so yeah i mean i

think like there's like a 15 minute period of hearing that you get the job and then it's like that i'm freaking out yeah and like worried that i'm gonna you know like just disappoint people or that i'm not yeah that i'm not as good as i should be that i should be able to navigate all these things more than i am yeah and yeah i was just thinking that like i'm just not like realizing like the disconnect between something not feeling good and like whether it is good or like right if it works like just getting rid of like good yeah yeah completely i think is like a big real i think i realized on how to get away with murder that like the barometer of how something feels and like what the end product is are very very different

totally thing yes and that going off of like your internal feeling about it is probably not a good a good idea for me because i'm not driving home ever being like that was a good yeah yeah yeah is there a specific like thing in life that led to kind of that shift in like perspective of like you know if this is what i'm doing then like how do i find more joy in it was or is it kind of just culmination of just life and stuff a lot of it i think is is yeah is getting older i think it's my daughter getting older and feeling like there's more room for me to expand or like i'm gonna like i i sort of need to like do some exposure therapy and like figuring out who i am without her because she's 16 now she's always um so that's part of it

i think and then there were yeah the being on set for lunar sway which was like a independent film that i did a couple summers ago and it was like a very you know it's like a 20 day shoot my part of it was 15 days i would say for 11 of those 15 days i was like coming home every day and like crying like i just couldn't i just couldn't figure it out and like it wasn't and it was lovely people and like amazing you know i i was just doing like a whole fucking number on myself that was yeah gnarly you know because it was all that like i don't know i think it was like finally just simplifying the idea of like there's you're always gonna have your own bullshit like that's never gonna go away so stop spending so much time

like being critical about having to navigate your bullshit right it's true you know yeah i think that takes a whole layer off when i do like i do a lot of like coaching work empowerment coaching stuff and i feel like so much of it is i feel like so often we have the the layer of like feeling bad and then we like add that layer on top of it it's like pouring gasoline on a fire to like try to put it out and just like removing that top layer of like extra judgment like it makes a world of difference right like yeah yeah yeah yeah it feels like a very like simple adjustment you know but But yeah, it's huge. Yeah, it's awesome.

It's also hard when it's like the job is inherently one that will be judged, you know, and judged publicly. And I've been thinking about that a lot in doing Death of a Salesman where it's like every night they have to go on stage and like bare their souls for an audience that like may or may not like them or it or, you know, the production or design or whatever. Right. And then on top of that, you have the critics and then you have the Tonys and all these like awards that you're vying for. And of course, it's not about that. But like, it is a weird gig where you have to do so much work to separate the job you're doing from the what the show or gig becomes publicly. and i don't think i dealt with that well i mean we've we've alluded to that quite a lot on this podcast but like you know it's such a it's such a weird thing and like it's not something that's ever really taught like it's it's just something that you i think have to experience and go through you know and i i don't know i'd be curious like if that i mean did you always want to be an actor

Was this like always the thing? Like, I'd be curious where like the itch came from for you, just because I feel like that, for me at least, paints a picture of like why you hold yourself to such a high standard, you know? yeah i do want to just go back one beat and just acknowledge what you just said because i i feel that all of that so uh strongly but that that is like a big part of it in that and that was sort of a difference between gilmore girls and this show too is that i didn't have that feeling like i was being watched like people were gonna watch this right in the same way that that murder was you know and that yeah i just wanted to agree with you that that definitely was a a component to like anxiety of like the holy shit like you you know it's hard you can have so many things going on and like you don't know what you're up against and you know it's hard to

be good yeah on a network yeah it is yeah anyway yes so i agree with you and i also feel like we were all i mean we were all having different experiences that were in the same yeah just hitting us at different times i guess yeah it's one thing to be perceived it's another thing to be perceived by millions of people right right yeah yeah yeah yeah i guess you have to like sort of come to terms with like being watched like being observed and even the live tweeting it's just like you're you're in it you're like really you can't even be like all right i'm gonna do it and then just sign off you're kind of like you're witnessing the mirror in real time yeah totally and live tweeting in a way that's like sort of diminishing the work because everybody's just

sort of like where's that dress from right like you know what shade lipstick is that which is all which is fine and like engagement is engagement and i do feel like there's so much value and being able to do that but that was like a weird thing too yeah yeah that makes sense but how did i come into acting um my parents uh were sort of performers of a sort my father before i was born was part of a like comedy troupe sort of like in the vein of monty python like a similar to that that sort of toured around Europe. And he met my mother through doing that. And then my mother sort of became involved. And that was sort of a lot of my initial very young childhood, I guess, was that sort of like, born in a trunk, you know, going along and sort of being around those kinds

of people and so yeah I think I was had a very early foundation of being sort of shaped by those kinds of people and I don't know man like I feel like because I sort of grew up in it and it's like not like my parent my parents then sort of gave it all up and like had to get regular jobs and like wait tables in their 40s like it wasn't glamorous yeah you know but i guess i felt like that was like the thing that was i don't know i couldn't i really didn't have any other thing right it was like it was normalized in a way a bit it was normalized but it was like yeah like you have to have a very the the work ethic thing was like the non-negotiable i think they were like you can fail out of school and you know not go to college but you have to like work at this in a certain

way which i think served me very well until it didn't right and then i think it i think a lot of that is sort of what made me feel like i wasn't i don't know doing enough yeah yeah sure that's real sure starts to cannibalize itself it works well and then and then it's like yeah that's so real yeah I definitely had my own I think for a long time obsession with my view what I viewed as like hard work and like it was a very much a moral thing you know like and how I saw myself and even I think subconsciously how I saw other people how I like structured the world you know what I mean like um so yeah that definitely yeah we used to call you the maximizer I know I was thinking about that the other day oh yeah yeah it's like it's really interesting because it almost

it feels like different but I think about it a little bit like with like fucking the guy clavicular right the you know max or like look maxing or whatever the fuck yeah and I'm like you know that's his like autistic but also like patriarchal way of like having a special interest or whatever and but I think in my own way you know however the world rewarded my own special interest through the filter of like capitalism and shit yeah i mean um but yeah i was for the audience it was like i was very hyper focused on like how to like maximize you know every possible sort of opportunity and doing a lot putting a lot of effort into social media and leveraging that for different things but yeah at some point it ends up kind of like cannibalizing itself it's

great you know maybe externally and um but also like you know at some point you know your own happiness and uh like a life feeling good and yeah with ease and worth living um hopefully takes over i had a not a dissimilar experience like not maybe not as intense as yours lunar sway but like i i filmed this movie last year and was like it was the first time i was number one on the call sheet and i was like killing myself to try and do a good job and had to come to this like realization towards the end of it where i was like no matter what i do like it's it's ultimately out of my hands like how they make this film you know and i've seen it it's good and it's you know like i'm proud of the work i did but it was like kind of putting myself into these

like destructive cycles that were much more present in my life in my mid-20s doing how to get with murder and i couldn't quite like figure out why it was all bubbling up but i think it comes from the same place of like really feeling deeply that I want to do a good job and I want people in my life to say like you did a good job like I want the grip on set to be like hey that scene was amazing you know like and just that need for for validation and for like I think for me it manifests in my baseline of anxiety and how fast I move in in my life often and I was lucky where I I was dating someone at the time and I spent a couple of weeks with her in Toronto and she would always say like going slow is an act of resistance,

like in capitalism, you know? And, you know, she would just like sit outside and like smoke a cigarette in the middle of the day, like not go to her, you know, her job, you know, and just take taking it slow. And it was really like, it kind of like cracked something open for me where I was like, Oh, I don't need to like constantly be, yeah, throwing myself at this thing you know I can accept that like I'm doing the best that I can I'm showing up prepared and you know what happens from there is like ultimately out of my control

and I don't need to like you know uh uh try and yeah mitigate it or control it in some way by all of these other like coping mechanisms you know yeah it's true though too I think of also like realizing that there's like there's very capable people that are also working on this thing that are that are there to help you and i think a lot of that like sort of relinquishing like trust and faith that like the editor is is going to help you out and that the writer director that you're working with does really like believe in you i feel like you're the right person and like knows what this story is and when they say that they have it yeah right right right totally right right they're just being nice yeah exactly right yeah yeah exactly yeah telling

yourself some bad stories of like yeah of just imagining people being like oh god like we just got to stop because it's never going to get any better right right exactly exactly yeah yeah yeah I would, I would love to see you do a play like in the next couple of years. Cause I mean, especially like if this, which I, I believe this like new found mantra will, will persist in your life. But I think, I don't know, I can just see you fucking being thriving in a, in a, in a live, you know, throw yourself on the stage every night. Like it would be so cool to see. yeah thank you i would i would really like to find my way back to that but yeah that's another it's like like three-year countdown of like i could you know yeah it's it's it hasn't like worked for my life for so long to do a play but yeah once uh that kid graduates high school it's like a whole new yeah totally i mean it's i ran into vial on the street a couple months ago in New York while she was promoting her book and like it it was interesting because I remember her on

set I remember Elfie asking her like Elfie saying that she would make such a good uh Lady Macbeth and I remember at the time Viola being like I don't think I'm gonna get on stage again like I don't know if she said it in that much finality but at the time it seemed like just like so in her rear view mirror but of course like she was weighing like the the you know the responsibilities of being a mother and having like a young woman in her house that she has to like raise and and send out into the world and when I ran into her she like was kind of singing a different tune or like she it sounded like was maybe interested in like getting back on stage you know and I yeah I could see how that would be like you said you kind of have to like beta test

a little bit who you are maybe without Jojo as like a constant presence but I could see how that would shift a lot of things for you as a person and as an artist are you excited by that yes you don't have to be but you are great no i i am i think it's like i know i i had yeah the thing in my head was just sort of it's all yeah there's a simultaneous thing of like yeah hopefully they work again i have to get the play i have to yeah yeah but but yes it does excite me and yeah i mean i think it's also it's nice to feel like i've sort of figured some stuff out to be kinder to myself but i'm also excited that if there is spillage which there probably will be yeah it's not gonna like affect somebody else it's just i can just like stay in my own

you know be the master of my own disaster yeah yeah yeah yeah totally yeah yeah i i can deeply relate to that i'm sure i remember if i if i ever knew this but did you were you like did you go to acting school or did you like what was your kind of process in in terms of that or were you yeah no i really painted myself in a corner like i i failed english my senior year and had to go to summer school did not take my SATs did not apply to any colleges and just kind of like whoa it was a very interesting time because I was sort of running into like people's parents and like friends like talking about like where they were going to go to college and like people being like what are you going to do right I was sort of like this I don't know yeah you know I mean I was

like working as a waitress at a restaurant in my small town in pennsylvania and like i was commuting to new york for auditions and i got a like festival of one-act plays at playwrights horizons and like went there to do that but didn't have enough money saved to stay there so i thought i would have to like come back yeah but i lived with like a great aunt on the upper west side who was slowly losing her mind and it was cool i would like walk from the upper west side to the theater and back and if i would look up and see like if the light was on i'd be like guess i'm still walking around till that light goes off like i can't it's too yeah but um it was a way into the city and then of course i just couldn't go home so i just sort of figured it

out I started like nannying and doing all of that but yeah I really sort of committed to the like there's no other thing that you can do yeah but no no formal training and I think that's like a lot of it that was like a big chip on my shoulder too of like feeling like people are gonna think I'm dumb like I didn't I didn't go to college like I you know yeah and then I got rid of that. Yeah. I think a lot of people my age were sort of afraid to hang out with me at that time too because it was just, they were sort of like, it stressed them out.

They were like, you're just living your life? Like, this is fucked up. Like, we don't want to, you know? Yeah. Was there like a moment where you found like a group of people that like you, that were maybe also in the in the trenches of of trying to make it as some sort of artist or like did you find your your community in New York that then like I don't know stabilized you in some way yeah a little bit I mean I think I was I was kind of gravitating towards people that were a

little bit older than me I think that might have been a little one-sided though as well like it felt better for me but for them they were sort of like you don't know anything you know but yeah eventually I did I mean I thought I think I was starting to do like little jobs and sort of there would be like a person that would then sort of maybe bleed over for a little bit into life but then that was sort of the devastating thing too of like the uh you don't get to keep people that you that you work with like the the dismantling of the the bond and the family right i found that like particularly devastating yeah yeah for like a really long time i mean you know it's very bizarre very bizarre i i got uh drinks with a friend from high school that was

visiting new york and they've worked at linkedin for like 14 years and like i like couldn't even find like it was so hard to communicate like exactly how bizarre it is that you know like i shot this hockey movie two years ago and ruptured my achilles on it was a bunch of young guys that i like felt like a very like brother older brother type of relationship with and and yeah like then they like go away and if if you're lucky people are working and on every continent working and it's so weird that you don't have like it really to me has contextualized how lucky we were to be on how to get away with murder and have the consistency of not not only work but also of like community for six years like it's yeah and that you know and that doesn't even really happen

anymore like it's first show to run six seasons is is so crazy now yeah but yeah you you it is a very destabilizing thing that you're like doing this thing that's impossible that many people have no relationship to and then the people that are doing it with you aren't really around what a fucking crazy thing it's interesting because i i'm just thinking about this now is like you know there's a term like sort of in like the polyamory community called comment relationships right which is like where you're you might not talk to the person a whole lot in between or see them very often but when you see each other it's like a you know it shines very bright there's a lot of depth and intimacy and then it kind of goes and like a comment you know it comes every once in

a while and that's kind of become more and more my style of relationship both romantically and friendship wise part of that is dictated just by having very limited energy and also you know being in different places means that like to be present in one place i kind of can't keep up all the communication other places but i don't know it's been an interesting sometimes for me like learning that there's like also even like a name for something uh can be like oh that's an interesting like way of like reframing that and um but i mean it's interesting that our our industry specifically like kind of makes that it just it becomes a necessity right we have so many more contacts like then people just from like you know even the parties we go to where you see someone

and like that you know their work and like their work and and it's reciprocated and you feel a depth of connection it's like there's just so many people that we meet I feel like I don't know that comparatively and other lines of work that we might not even you know yeah yeah it is really I was like I was typing someone's name into like to text them the other day and it you know it like gives you suggestions and it was like 15 people i was like i don't know any of these people i was like i legitimately could not gun to my head tell you who any of these 15 people are but it's i'm sure it's like from from you know that time in our lives where you're meeting so many people you like make plans to do something maybe or work on something together and like they

go on the phone book maybe and then you see them again like randomly throughout you know your career but it's it's yeah it's a very strange uh and isolating thing i've found yeah so how did you get from new york to la i uh had done this this very small indie movie called whatever that went to sundance and it came out in theaters for like a very short window and then sort of went away very quickly but a bunch of casting directors saw that movie and there was a time in the late 90s where they were doing a thing called uh holding deals oh yeah and i feel like in the late 90s like honestly like they were like giving him out of the airport you know like that It was like a very, very just frequent thing that they were doing.

So I was asked to come to L.A. to take a meeting with Warner Brothers Television to potentially get a holding deal, which would mean that they would pay me like a certain amount of money to not audition for anybody else's pilots, but their pilots for a year, which I decided to do. um so i moved out here with that chunk of money which then would have been like it's weird because if you get a job in the umbrella of that year you have to they take it out of your salary and like you give them the money back that's weird yeah it's like a record deal oh is that right yeah it's similar i think like kind of premise yeah and i did not uh get a pilot within that year but i did get like a couple guests like i guest starred on west wing and er and but those didn't count and then after that year closed out uh that's when the the pilot for gilmore girls happened and then that you know and then that was like a consistent job that's

crazy but I really did not I was very ambivalent about moving here and it took me a really long time to like adjust to it I mean and I I do feel like it's I mean I guess any place is way better if you have a purpose and meaning there and like a place to be every day yeah sure sure and working here for so long has certainly helped that and I'm telling you now from where I'm sitting not working here for a little bit it's not i don't want i don't want to be here anymore yeah i mean it's why it's why i left yeah i can deeply relate i mean it's such a it's also a bizarre it's a bizarre place to live when you're not working because you're just driving down sunset and being reminded of every you know every billboard you pass is a show

that you didn't book you know like it's crazy like yeah i didn't even get in the room for that yeah exactly right yeah exactly i mean i got to i got to like a breaking point where i was just like if i see one more billboard for the pit i'm gonna i'm gonna just lose my mind and then like really the the catalyst like i'd been talking about moving for so long but i was just having a terrible day and i like went and got a beer at like 2 p.m and i walk out of this bar and just a giant bus passes by and it's like noah wiley's face the pit like how like 500 emmy nominations i was like i gotta get out of here i can't i can't do this anymore i gotta leave it's like live walking through a like a i don't know like a haunted house of like

almosts and you know totally like uh missed missed dreams come true yeah yeah totally yeah i know i drive by sunset gower and it's just yeah remember well yeah i know that's the studio lot where we shot murder yeah yeah which is now like a giant netflix lot i guess so yeah yeah yeah wow man so did you did you audition for paris for gilmore girls no i auditioned for rory gilmore oh really okay yeah and then uh i was gonna test for that but then i think they sort of found their their people and then i had i got a call that if it got picked up they were gonna write something for me for like an arc and i was like okay yeah sure and then they did and it yeah paris was initially going to be like a three episode arc oh wow

and then i just yeah knocked it out of the park but i every year i was like bye i'm not coming back yeah yeah thanks for everything yeah like i just never right felt like secure in it yeah you know that makes sense so you didn't test right so you didn't test for gilmore girls or how to get away correct yeah so this is interesting so yeah i feel like i i have not i've never done a test um and i feel like that's a rare thing but yeah it sounds like you've also had yeah i've done tests before but I've never gotten the job after that it's I mean can you imagine I just it's not I don't know who thrives in that in that people do apparently people do yeah people do yeah I don't I feel like I've tested for actually like a decent amount of stuff to be honest and

it's yeah the abc the 2014 was bizarre because i was i tested for two abc pilots and it was like the first time where i was like oh i feel like it's gonna happen but it it's such a weird environment to be thrown into that and i mean i think it's good context for listeners too that like how you guys were like at the front end of the audition process. And I was like way at the end, like it, you know, it's sometimes months of a process and like, you'll hear about like everyone and their friend in your community that's going in for this great, you know,

TV pilot called how to get away with murder. And you're like vying to get an audition and you can't. And then, and then you, you get an audition and boom, you get it. And like, I then was on a plane two weeks later, whereas like you had auditioned seven weeks before me or something, you know, it's crazy. I just auditioned for this like massive, massive franchise that exists that obviously I can't name. And I remember like getting the audition and I was thrilled that I got, I mean, it was

like absurd that they even, you know, considered me for it. But I was like, Oh, this is gonna like, this is gonna they're gonna be auditioning this for a year. And then like, yeah, days later, they cast someone in my part. Who's like, you know, a movie star, which makes sense. And he's gonna be great. But I was just like, Whoa, what a what a bizarre, like, they had just started auditioning. And like, you never can tell where you are in like, because I guess there isn't a whole lot of like, rhyme or reason to it. Like, they're just they're looking for the person. And if they find the person. Yeah. You know? yeah that like global net that they're casting now too is like just like yeah with self-tapes of just how many people they can see for a role which used to be like 40 people and now it's like 600 people that's right it's just wild totally yeah and for like something like this they would have they would have auditioned guys like in every country on the planet if they wanted to you know what I mean Carla talked a little bit about that about how beneficial that is for her like as a producer but and I think it has made it much more democratized and or at least the

accessibility is more equitable now where you know even doing death of a salesman I'm talking to like young actors in the understudy cast who yeah like they can just like tape for a giant pilot now even though they might live in like Chicago or wherever yeah but that that wasn't when you were coming up like you had to be boots on the ground. And yeah, you know, luckily, there were holding deals at the time. So at least put like a little bit of money in your pocket to like subsidize your life. But it's, it's interesting. How much I think Matt and I have talked about this, how much it's changed in our careers. But for you, it's like, I mean, it's, it's almost unrecognizable, the the industry yeah I think so much like yeah in in almost every way you know I mean just in terms of

like I don't know we're like I'm the last generation of people that remember like being on a set without a phone right yeah right right you know yeah and that's kind of like how this like the sensibility that I came up in so I think it's also I don't know it's it's a strange thing to adjust to that as well and like have grace for you guys who like have never been without that technology and like that it is actually a difficult thing to figure out how to be without it right you know and like the sets that are mandating that and all that stuff but it's a very different time yeah yeah how does that feel like in terms of the difference like does it feel better worse uh just different i don't know i think it's a weird like i don't know time is like

a it's so strange like the passage of time it so it all feels i don't know like it's i'm not going to say anything profound or interesting about how time is you know time i don't know i think it's just it's yeah i guess i'm there's more of an awareness of like geez you've been alive a long time sure I'm feeling that just turned 40 I'm feeling I'm feeling a new for the first time a different sense of like mortality and all sorts of stuff so you had mentioned earlier that like you were maybe okay with sort of the original you know first couple episodes of Bonnie being like oh I'm gonna stand in the corner with my arms folded but that obviously is not what happened I'd be curious to hear a little bit about like what that experience was for you and if like

how much of those conversations did you have with Pete or was it you know just because I feel like everyone's had on our show like because Pete had this open door policy a lot of people did go in there and have these conversations that then you know would blossom into larger character arcs but i mean yours is so so intense i'd be curious to hear what that was like playing bonnie and seeing how how much it evolved over yeah this the six seasons it was an interesting evolution and i think i mean i guess the first time that i encountered it was the in season one like the Bonnie kissing Sam and then being on your knees and all that that whole thing with Viola I guess was like the first time that it sort of was like and like an impossible scene you know to me

initially where I was just like hold on I mean guess I'm off the show I don't know I don't know I don't even know where to begin to I mean I feel like of so many of those scenes there isn't really like a preparation that you can do you know yeah I mean I was lucky enough that I am like looking in Viola's eyes and like a lot of the time like shit happens when you do that just I think the weird thing about working with Viola sometimes would be that I I she's so self-sustaining like she's she she or self-generating i guess right that i almost felt like i was like in the world that's so funny yeah yeah so yeah i think sort of figuring that that out it was a challenging time because i think it's like all we sort of were going off of for so long

and i think that's sort of what maybe uh initiated like charlie and i becoming such close friends is that there was just all we sort of knew was that there was like this profound bond yeah right and ties and we were just so loyal and unwavering to each other but we didn't know why for a very very long time and then when they started to sort of write situations where that was going to get thrown into question where like one of our loyalties were being questioned or we were betraying her or crossing her it was a difficult thing to navigate because it didn't feel doing it that that there were any consequences

really for it getting fired and being like get out you know and then it's like I was like oh I'm this might be for to me this might be over or like I'm not going to work for them anymore right so I don't know but then

it's like you're just back at the office the next day you know yeah and when you see the show and it works do you know what I mean like it's like within the dynamic of the show it all makes sense but doing it you're sort of hard i don't understand how to make this matter i guess yeah because it just seems like we're immediately back in the fold and i think once i understood like how deep that went and like they're

introducing ideas of like childhood sexual abuse then that then kind of you're sort of like well it all makes sense now right like and i don't you can sort of you know i mean i don't know it's that's just like an infinite thing of so much but yeah it is a big ask where you know with our show where there are these massive emotional scenes happening really quickly like in succession over a season and to your to your character and it's a bit of a leap of faith where you you wait which it took me years if I ever learned this on the show to like really truly be able to trust you know Pete and everyone that's making the show I mean even to your point about like oh the editor wants you to be good right like yeah it's it's a really you're kind of just like walking off a

cliff because knowing how you work um and how i work like i i would show show up and be killing myself in these scenes yeah and yeah sometimes like the writing would seem to you know contradict maybe choices that i made and and then i would get really sensitive about that or defensive um but then now watching it as a first-time viewer i'm like oh it works it's just my my experience is so individualized on set and I'm not Viola Davis and so it feels like I'm it feels like I have to like give a little part of myself whenever I do something like that and like I'm not as self-generating and you know what I mean um yeah but I think also to your point it's like what made us lucky that we were in a cast of like talented actors that we were able to like sort of

support each other and and recognize too i think that like oh jack's having a bad day like we're gonna support jack yeah and like it's this is fucking hard man it's hard it's it's hard i think i i don't know it's a tricky thing to i think i mean i i did watch the show when it was on and you never really know when you make that choice like how that's gonna go for you and and i think it did ultimately become a mixed bag for me but it was probably more of a help to me to see what the show was yeah like I had to understand what it was because what I thought it was and what it was were very different things and so I think seeing it like helped me be a little bit more forgiving ultimately that scene that you were just talking about where you're you know on your hands and

knees with viola which is you're so fucking good in that scene but it it reminded me which we've talked about on the podcast when that first time i go to oliver's apartment and i like have like the panic attack like sobbing breakdown and i remember you on set being like well dog now that's all you're gonna do for the next six seasons like because they know you can do it and i feel like that's that's you know we've talked about them like really writing into uh comedy for matt and then also giving matt some like heavy scenes because he you know could do both but seeing you in that scene with viola i feel like had to have been like an unlock for pete where he was then like oh okay we can we can rip the band-aid off and give liza this crazy crazy crazy

arc yeah i yeah i mean well thank you i i feel like that's again like true like every any everybody could do whatever was thrown at them on this cast truly like and that must be you know wild to like i mean i think pete spoke to that a bit too of just like realizing just the like the the power houses of the cast that he assembled and that he could really just throw anything yeah and we we would do it but yeah there's yeah and there's there's a cost to that totally and i think you know it's it was it was definitely you know the bar was set high with viola too in you know being able to do anything that was thrown at her and i've thought about that a lot in watching it and thinking like i don't know that the show could have existed if it was not her you know

Or if they had gotten someone that like was even like a couple degrees not as talented as Viola, like I just don't know that it could have gotten as crazy as it got because she was able to ground everything into naturalism and make those scenes. It's like, I totally know what you mean. It's like, and Matt and I have talked about this whenever you got a scene, which you kind of had a lot of, especially in the first season of these like one-on-ones with Viola. And we didn't really, you know,

as the young students on the show, we'd get one like every couple episodes if we were lucky, you know? Yeah. And how intense those scenes felt because, you know, it was like the major leagues, you know, you're like in the World Series with Viola and you know that she's just going to like take whatever was on the page and make it

into you know that and some yeah yeah I mean I think they definitely felt like events all the time I don't know and looking back I maybe wish that I approached some of those differently because I think that that I probably was approaching it from a thing of like I'm like I'm out like like having to like stand across from her and be like I want you to die I'm like I'm done you know like there's no way yeah that i'm coming back from this so i gotta like go out with a bet yeah it's so stupid what do you what do you mean in terms of like approach it differently like how how might how do you imagine that looking like or just understanding i guess that people can say things to each other that are very uh dark and like profoundly hurtful but it doesn't

you can just say them you know like it doesn't have to be this whole like i don't know i think that that was also a hard thing and having to play so much like trauma or just like fear or high stakes and like for so long that you sort of get to a point where you're like well how does that what does it look like even like i don't know anymore like people don't have to be like sobbing and hysterical every time they're having like a trauma response but i think that that the writer sort of still wanted that i guess i i started to get to a point where i was like unless i'm crying in this scene it doesn't work right right which is not i don't think that's true but yeah i hear you're saying i think we've talked about that we've all kind of struggled that a

little bit too right it's just like having to invest so fully at all times even though also i mean look it's it's it's a show that has commercials right and they're and and have to keep people for the commercials i remember specifically like the points that lead up to the commercials or the end of the episode sometimes it would feel like you know like we're talking about the court scenes it's like we have our own like traumatic you know situation my dad you know like on the show like dies you know by suicide and then we're supposed to be in court and being like really invested in like you know uh the you know the priest or whatever and it's hard because it does it takes so much energy and and depending on one's process it takes like a

chunk of your soul you know um and then but then it kind of we pivot very quickly you know to something entirely different unless you're you know viola's character and it works as an audience member because there's so much going on everyone's so good yeah you're not like you know but wait what about you know his emotional continuity yeah it it's hard you know especially when you're bringing all that and and even like yeah people's real trauma responses at some point i feel like with that much trauma over and over again you kind of normalize it right and then you kind of like people like numb out and they stop responding in a way but that doesn't make good tv necessarily yeah exactly definitely not for 15 episodes a season for six years yeah yeah i think i started

to fight for that though towards the end yeah it's just like you don't know i mean just look exactly like this that's right that's right yeah yeah yeah yeah are you are you continuing to play characters plagued by trauma what what can you tell us a little bit about your your role in lunar sway i mean i'm so proud of that movie it's like a very cool special film i you know it's like unlike anything that i've ever seen so it just it feels very special to like just sort of feel like you're in a story that is being approached differently the character that i play in that in that film i feel like is there's things that are similar and there's things that are different she's messy and complicated in a way that i've not been asked to

do before and that was and she's not governable to it or she's not apologizing about it which so it felt way more empowering i think than like yeah that that woman is not moving through the world uh as a victim she is probably damaging other people because of it like she's still yeah but ultimately that that that film is about like a young man in sort of a strange desert town who is stuck in his life and his job and his sense of who he is and um is looking for love in all the wrong places and then this sort of very bizarre like disruptive relationship comes into his life and sort of shakes all of that stuff loose you're you're like doing the festival thing right now right yeah we've been able to we just we premiered in march at bfi flair in london which

It was, like, such a wonderful thing and, like, felt like a very appropriate and cool place to introduce that movie into the world. And, yeah, now we're sort of on, like, a little bit of a festival run. We're going to the Toronto Inside Out Festival in a couple weeks. And then we're going to the Brooklyn Film Festival. And, yeah, and it has a release. So it's going to be released in the UK in the summer and it should be here in the fall and then in other territories in Europe later on. But it's yeah, it's it's a lovely thing to be able to sort of travel around with it. And I love those people very much.

And yeah, it feels like a very nice moment to talk about something that you like with people that you really respect and like. Well, and the fact that you're getting like a theatrical release is like, what a, what a treat. I know. It's awesome. It's awesome. Yeah. Congrats.

Thanks. Yeah. Thank you. Thanks. It occurred to me when you texted me about this, that, and you, you know, we were making plans to see each other in New York that I also have a film at that festival. At Brooklyn? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. A short, a short film that a friend of mine directed. but I will is that the one where you're in the bathtub yeah yes like yeah okay yeah yeah but uh kind of feel similarly though it's just like I was just it was such a positive experience like just shooting this like little short for three days in like a tiny you know one bedroom apartment in New York but like just loving everyone involved and and the project itself and yeah I'm glad that like as for how much the industry has changed that like film festivals seem to still be holding on by

like the skin of their teeth and that it is a moment for like community to come together and and share these things with one another and i feel like you're gonna have so much fun here just because it's like the i mean i've gone to like a couple screenings in the past couple months and like new york like turns out for for film festivals which would be great it feels nice that there's festivals that really do seem to like uh be truly supporting independent film and like i have been able to remain about that and about the filmmaker and communities is really nice yeah like you said i just worked on a short film too and in portland and the film community there's is just really special but yeah those experiences have really been filling my bucket lately it's like such a

great reminder of why we do this and the joy in it i was watching your parts specifically in the first season of the cleaning lady and and i i thought it was i thought it was interesting there was like these parallels with there's two moments that like are exact parallel moments like with asher shit where i'm like oh you're dealing with like emotionally immature men oh my god like there's one moment where the other character goes to high five you and you walk away and he does it himself which was an asher moment and the other one where he has his feet up on your desk and you like yeah you i think threw off asher's feet or uh bonnie threw off actually but i just thought i was like that's really interesting and i end up having a relationship with him

that's so funny i just thought i was like oh wow what the hell yeah you're right to uh to notice that yeah that's interesting um how do you feel like liza from like when we shot the pilot if if she could see you today in your life today how would she like perceive you like what do you think that she might feel would she be excited or you know i don't know what do you think yeah i think she'd be like relieved nice or like just um there's peace it's okay that's you know yeah yeah I love that that's beautiful oh that feels like a good place for us to wrap things up I think this has been amazing I personally love to hear that you're turning over this like new leaf with your relationship to to the work like that I think is really exciting and I'm excited for you

thank you likewise yeah and like I don't know I'm sure there's all the feelings about Jojo flying the coop eventually but i'm i'm personally selfishly excited to like see what that how expansive that is or how it changes i guess your relationship to the work if it does um and hopefully get you like on a stage somewhere in the next couple years because that would be god i would i would be running to see you do anything live oh that's kind maybe you can be too yeah let's do it yeah yeah let's definitely do that i'm down yeah it's like the version of like the reading the the play readings the shakespeare readings right that the cast would do oh yeah yeah yeah with elfie yeah who all all reports you know liza maybe you don't know this

but suzy and ashley went i did know that yeah and they went and saw it yeah and they said it was just like suzy sent me suzy sacks who is the script supervisor on the show that we've mentioned before but she left me a voice note the other day or voicemail not a voice note well first of all she's left me a voicemail being like touch you're we're supposed to be talking on the phone where the fuck are you i got stuck in uh i got stuck in a meeting but she left this voicemail saying it was like the best trip of her life and that she like was sobbing seeing elfie on stage and that he was just incredible um which comes as no surprise but like yeah i think yeah i think it's it is nice that this this is giving us the opportunity to talk to people and i don't know

that there's still like the how to get with murder family is still traveling across the globe to go see one another on stage it's really cool yeah yeah i was able to see him a couple summers ago and yeah i just sort of wept in his arms it is like it's a very moving thing to sort of be being around him and and everyone really yeah i'm really happy for suzy that she's starting to travel and you know she's somebody who who needs to be having expansive experiences and it's so great that that she's finally yeah getting out i love that yeah she's been working so hard for so long yeah yeah totally yeah all right girl well everyone keep an eye out for Lunar Sway cloudypicturesinc.com is gonna have all of the release information and you can track like the festivals that it's

screening at I wish that I could come and see it in New York but I'll be at the theater unfortunately you have like the most yeah you you have a pastor and I I uh I really hope to get to see your play but we'll we'll talk yeah we'll figure that out for sure yeah it was a real joy yes for me too guys yeah thank you so much i'm so glad you're doing this it's like a really beautiful thing thank you yeah thank you thanks for coming and thanks for listening i don't know what's on next week but it's another episode of the podcast that's right our podcast our podcast and you can email us at HowWeGotAwayWithMurder

at gmail.com and tell a friend. Please tell someone. Please. Please. Please tell someone. Thank you. All right.

Love you, dude. Bye. Love you. Bye. That's it for today's show. Thanks for joining us and see you next week for a new episode.

They drop every Thursday and don't be late because the professor doesn't like to wait. how we got away with murder is an original production by podcast nation produced by james brown and alicia paneer audio production by miles carter original music by elephante Thanks for watching!