How We Got Away with Murder - Pete Nowalk Talks HTGAWM Origins

Episode Date: February 5, 2026

Jack and Matt sit down with How to Get Away with Murder creator Pete Nowalk for a deep-dive chat into how the iconic pilot came together. Pete revisits the whirlwind of developing the story, figuring out the show’s signature flash-forward structure, and the early uncertainty over whether audiences would connect with such a morally complicated world. He shares behind-the-scenes stories about shaping Annalise Keating, navigating network notes, and the nerve-racking process of casting a lead who could command the series’ emotional and intellectual intensity. Packed with anecdotes about collaboration, creative risk, and trusting bold instincts, the episode offers fans a rare look at the making of a television pilot that changed the landscape of network drama forever.We want to hear from you! Send us your show and episode questions for the chance to be read on the air during an episode: [e-mail] Matt & Jack:IG @jackfalaheeTIKTOK @jackfalaheeX @RestingPlatypusREDDIT u/ItsMeJackFalaheeINSTAGRAM @mattmcgorryTIKTOK @matt.mcgorryX @MattMcGorryFacebook: @ActorMattMcGorryBig thank you to our sponsors!Hero Bread: This year, hit your goals without giving up your favorite bready dishes. Hero Bread is offering 10% off your order. Go to hero.co and use code JACKANDMATT at checkout.This podcast is brought to you by Podcast Nation.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

hey everyone my name is matt mccorry and i played the character asher millstone on how to get away with murder and i'm jack fallahy and i played connor walsh on that very same tv show and this is the how we got away with murder podcast hi hi hello hello jackariah jackariah and madison Yes, it's me, Matteson. How you doing, bud? I'm well. I'm doing well. How are you? I'm pretty good. I'm really excited about today because today we have an absolute banger of a guest. A treat. A real treat for all of you. Every single one of you.

Every one of you. The reason we're all here, really, you could say. One could say it. One could say it. And it would be true. It would be true because they created us. Yeah. They created the show. Our father who art in heaven.

Our father who art in heaven. Yeah. They created How to Year with Murder. Yeah. We were born from their memory. That's true. Connor Walsh and Asher Millstone would not ever have existed in the universe without it. I feel like he is going to hate this introduction.

So without further ado, the great Pete Nowak. Hey, Pete. Hey, guys. Hello. I'm so happy to be here. You created us. You created us, father. We're so happy.

We're so happy you're here. thank you for joining us it's so good it's so good to see you and and to hear you i'm thankful that you guys are doing this it's a very special for me yeah i mean the 10th anniversary of the show premiering was last year and so matt and i thought it was like it was just perfect timing you know and something we've talked about a lot too is how there's like new audiences constantly finding the show because of the streaming of it all. And that it's this like positive feedback loop for us as actors where people reach out or walk up to us on the street and just express how much the show meant to them. And so this felt like a really special way to give some of that

back to the fans. Cause you know, that's why the show kept going was because of the fans support. And so I guess to start off, I'd be curious, like, has, has that been your experience at all? Like constantly interfacing with people that you know your show changed their lives in some way not at all but i think it makes me really happy to know that you get stopped on the street and that you're not you're the face of it i definitely get a nice instagram message when i check i'm trying to get off of it like everyone else in the world totally um yeah and it's always positive and you know definitely makes me feel good but 10 years is a long time and you know the hollywood game of you're only as good as what you did last night right uh definitely is in my head so i think

when i hear 10 years i'm floored because it feels like yesterday and i'm looking at your faces and you both look exactly the same as when i met you but uh it's yeah that's surprising to me but people tell me that all the time like oh it's it's still watched and uh that just feels nice to know well it definitely is still watched and just to gas you up i feel i think especially like playing connor you know like the the number of people that reach out and continuously and hearing that you know connor and oliver and the other queer representation on the show helped them you know come out to their parents or feel more secure in their own skin and identity like that that to me has been a real joy that was always the most surprising thing about the show because it was never built

to be this positive representational like vehicle for anything or that wasn't obviously that was subconsciously there and we wanted people to like the characters but i was always more worried that people would have such a negative reaction of portraying a gay person as this brutal murderer sure yeah flawed and nuanced yeah so that was and still is the most pleasant surprise about how people reacted to the show that they could take something so negative and turn it into something positive honestly the biggest surprise for me is when i hear people say that it inspired them to go to law school that's crazy it's crazy and there's so many like my dms are filled with people saying I went to law school because of this show. And I'm like, what? What do you mean?

They have a horrible time at law school. Right. Right. Right. I did a murder because of your show. Actually, it inspired me. I haven't gotten that one yet. Yeah. Well, OK. So before we fully get ahead of ourselves, I think, you know, Matt and I gave some context to listeners about how we came to the show. And so I think we would love to hear. And a lot I mean, a lot of it was is sort of news to us too, and reading about your, your trajectory in Hollywood and like how, how you got to selling the show. Cause it's, it's not a typical, you know, stepping stone path. So I, I would love to hear how, how you got to selling the show and, and what were the, you know, what was your introduction to Shondaland? And, you know, I know you went to Brown and there's,

that's an elite school that then shows up in your pilot. Like, did you always want to be a TV writer like can you just walk us through a little bit like how you got here i'm going to give you the really fast version which hopefully will have some interesting highlights but no i'm from a small town in new jersey so grew up escaping my closetedness and just boredom by watching tv so for me like 90210 the original was inspiring so when i went to college i um you know my mind exploded sort of in the same way i guess that wes's mind gets exploded uh by going to middleton like it just opened up my world and really it was the people these like ambitious successful people that um taught me things anyway so that's like that experience is very much wes's experience

without the murder um and i guess that's just a disclaimer for this whole time i've never committed any crimes yeah yeah um but i didn't know i wanted to be a writer until i came out to hollywood after graduating and was like, Oh, maybe I'll be, what did you study by the way? I did study popular culture. It was called American civilization with a focus on popular culture. No way. And that was really me being like anti-intellectual wanting to just watch TV. That's really cool. I like wrote papers on Jerry Maguire. Wow. I didn't, I did not know that, but that, that makes sense. I feel like the show also was just so imbued with so much. It makes sense. It makes, it makes total sense. And Yeah, I love that. Anyway, because we studied like Ally McBeal and whether it was feminist or not feminist. And so and I love that. I love the deeper interpretation of something that's popular and can be thrown out like as lowbrow. But lowbrow is awesome to me. Yeah. So, yeah, that's sort of my formative years. And then I was an assistant at an agency, which was hell.

Yeah, the worst job in Hollywood. It really was hard for me. And that was like the people who I respect. I was like, I am not built like these people. I'm not a salesman. I do not want to get screamed at all day. Then I worked at a production company for movies. And that's when I really actually took a vacation my first trip to Paris. And like a cliche, I was like, I'm going to be a writer. I'm reading the screenplays every day. And maybe I can do this. And I started just on my own writing screenplays that, in retrospect, were not good, but they taught me how to write. I had a meeting once with John Wells, and he was like, you need to write a script this high, like up to his head, right? Wow. You need to write this many scripts before you actually know anything about writing. And so that is kind of what I did. I worked as a barista.

I'd quit my assistant jobs. I would temp at others. I got a really good one, my last assistant job that sort of connected me to everyone, because I worked for the president of Columbia Pictures. And they were making Spider-Man and working with all these amazing A-list screenwriters like David Koepp. Of course, I would just answer the phone. But every day you're like on hold with them. And I would just ask them questions of, how did you get into writing? Like exactly this. Wow. Yeah. Oh, Wow. I love that.

And I definitely was focused on writing. Like, you know, a lot of people, when you're an assistant, you want to be an executive or you can sort of get hooked into that. And I, when I got the job, I told my boss, I was like, don't make me read the scripts. Don't make me do notes on the scripts. I'll read them for fun, but I want to be a writer. I don't want to do this job. And he didn't believe me, but I did. I just would, you know, I have this great friend, John Terzian. I have to give him a shout out because he would send me a message every day from law school. He was at Pepperdine Law School and he'd say, did you write last night? And I would always have to tell him the truth. Wow. An accountability partner. That's awesome.

I love that. He's the best. And he's now this very successful producer and club owner and like amazing person. And he still is like, did you write last night? Wow. I love that. Can he, can he text me and ask me if i've done any number of things honestly he changed my life because it was i would go to the starbucks across from sony pictures and i would eat the sad sandwich and i would write and i can't even imagine doing that now i'm so much more lazy and have real accountability like you know whoever betsy beer is telling me did you write and i was like okay gotta do this yeah you had deadlines but thank god for being young and kind of naive and just whittling away yeah we'll be right back and we're back something my friends and i talk about a lot

is to make it in hollywood you need a healthy level of delusion you know it's it's such especially for people p like you and i that grew up in like small towns with with like no connections to the entertainment industry and matt i know you went to a performing arts high school but still you didn't have like an in to the industry. And for any of us to think I'm going to do this and succeed in doing it is so delusional. It's such a crazy thing to put on yourself. So I'm really curious if you can relate to that and how that plays out in this trajectory. I completely agree. And now I like really want that delusion again. Like every time I sit down to write. I'm like, Oh, this is so hard. Am I just being stupid to think that these words are going

to sound good coming out of someone's mouth and anyone's going to want to watch this, especially in today where there's just so much coming at us. But I think that's the healthiest thing in the world. And like, just why not be a little stupid? And maybe that's the lesson of me doing this podcast is to be more delusional again. Be more delusional. I love that. Yeah. I also think there's this interesting like thing of early on especially at least for me and i think for a lot of other creatives like there's this sense of like i'll speak for myself that like i so much of my like own personal sense of self was wrapped up in what i thought that i could achieve or not and then obviously as a result of that there's like an extreme amount of like hustle that is imbued in

that right because you are essentially like hustling for your self-worth right you're like if I don't make it, then I'm not the person. And then it's something it's interesting is when you achieve like a certain level of success, that part maybe falls away a little bit, right? Because you're kind of, you're not like, if I don't have this, then what kind of person am I? But then trying to also find that sort of motivation, that creative inspiration to keep going, to stay engaged, stay interested, to be inspired. It just requires something different than like, for me, when it was like the entire focus of my life you know and the stakes were really high and therefore the ups were really high and the lows were really high yeah um but finding that like interesting

sort of balanced like middle ground where you're like okay i love to do this you know like this is my job now and how do i keep moving this forward while also having this like balanced life is like an interesting like next level i feel like of creative exploration you know and self-exploration I completely agree. It reminds me like when people talk about winning an Oscar and how like that can be one of the hardest moments of their life because you think like, okay, I'm just going to feel full after this. But instead, and obviously not having experienced that, but I think in any sort of success, you like get to the top of a mountain and you're like, oh no, is it all downhill from here? Yeah. Right. And I think, yeah, I think it can be that, that gift of that moment where it's like either, I think for myself, like I remember like achieving a certain level, especially even like with this show and then being like, okay, if I'm still feeling some sort of like emptiness inside, does that mean that I need to achieve more or does that mean I have to adjust internally? Right. Like there's some, there's some gift to being like, also like, even I relate this to when I was like bodybuilding and for, you know, and I thought that, oh, my life will be so much better if I have a certain body. And then once I did, it allowed me to be like, oh, I actually internally, I still feel this way. So something internally has to shift. So, but what a blessing to be able to get to experience things coming to fruition about what we had hoped to achieve that we also have the opportunity to be like, great. What's, what's next? How do we want to be? what's next to learn that's kind of where i've come to it's like it's not about feeding my ego or getting obviously i have all those demons like i want to be seen and i want to be heard and i want

to be successful and all of those things but when i'm happiest is like when i'm learning something and what's good about writing and i think probably what you guys feel as artists like that's the the cool part you can always learn more like i haven't learned anything that i need to about writing like I'm constantly like oh is this better you know learning from other people and watching other things and reading so that's where I kind of come to terms with my ambition yeah okay so you're writing at Starbucks and you have an amazing accountability partner how like how do you get in the door that happened in this sort of my lesson for young people is just it's really the other young people and your peers that are gonna launch you into something good not only my

accountability partner. But I wrote a pilot finally, just on the fly. And it was really like inspired by Grey's Anatomy and that Lost and Desperate Housewives, all these cool kind of network shows came out. And I was like, oh, let me try writing a pilot. I like TV. And that was a script that I would then give to other assistants at Columbia Pictures. And people liked it and thought it was good and then gave it to their friends. And one of those friends, Jessica gave it to her boss who was a manager and I got a meeting with a manager and she was like oh I can help you do this and I was like really and she's like what who are your dream people to meet and I was like well a lot I have like a million Steven Spielberg can't help you with

that one but he did know and a few like John Wells I met with him and who's like an icon of TV and then she also had me meet with Betsy Beers because she knew I liked Grey's Anatomy and that was the meeting that changed my life because I think it was a year between meeting Betsy and meeting Shonda but you guys have met Betsy she's a force of nature she's really down to earth she was so encouraging and that feels like the thing that changed my career because you can you know write a script that's good and you can meet with a ton of people but she just took me she liked me for some reason or like my writing and believed in me. And so just to hear it from someone who had this much experience really gassed me up, as you said. Yeah. And being like, oh, I'm going to write

another pilot. And that's, I think I wrote a pilot about people that work at a rehab and it was really dark and fun for me to write. I'd never been to rehab, but it was just another way of like, oh, let me learn about this interesting world. And that's what Shonda read. And I went in for a meeting I thought just with Betsy but Shonda was there and Marty Noxton was there who you know worked on Buffy and a million brilliant shows and I didn't know they would all be there and they were interviewing me for a job that I thought was just a general meeting whoa but they were like we have this other show private practice that's gonna start no one's seen it but we need writers and the best thing about going to the meeting is I was naive and didn't know to be like prepared to

have an interview. So I just got to be myself. Wow. Shonda didn't really speak in it, which is famous of her. She's very famous for that. And I left and I went to a friend's house and my cell service is bad. But when I got out of my friend's house, I had a message from my manager saying that they wanted to hire me. Wow. And it was, yeah, off of one, you know, I wrote two pilots and I didn't know anything about being in a writer's room. And it was my Grey's Anatomy was my favorite show. So Shonda was my hero. And that's the part that it's not helpful for other people to hear because it really was this dream come true. Yeah. I mean, and, and I feel like oftentimes that's, that is how it happens. But it is notable that you, you skipped many of the steps

that are typical in the process. So you get hired straight into the room on private practice and then you you get reassigned to scandal yes it was a few months in a private practice i don't even know if the show aired and we had there were like a lot of writers there's what i remember on it and one day shonda came over to our writers room and we had a birthday party and after the birthday party she's in front of everyone's like oh you it wasn't even sure she really named she was like And you come with Marty and I into this office. This is front of the whole staff. And everyone looked at me like their faces went white because this is what happens when you get in trouble.

Oh, no, sure. Or fire. Sure. I feel like you gave me some of those in production of Murder. Yes, I'm sure. Yeah, not even knowing. Like, oh, no, we're just having an administrative meeting. I want to hear it.

Right, right. Oh, I've been brought into those meetings still before. Oh, my God. I'm so scared. and it was you know then she was like we don't have enough writers on Grey's Anatomy would you be willing to move over there and I was like she's like but think about it or you're fired I was like yeah I was like okay and I called I remember I had did have agents and I called them and I was like is this a trick like what am I what's the right answer I don't want to like are they testing me

and they're like no you just say yes and you go and obviously i was scared because i was still like a staffer i didn't know anything like i really wouldn't speak a lot in the writer's room anytime i'd write a scene we would group write like obviously it would be rewritten um that's i really have to hit that home for young writers like you're just constantly rewritten if you get like the word the in your script and it comes out of an actor's mouth like so um so that's why i was confused too it wasn't like i was i didn't think i was succeeding right um then i went to gray's anatomy and i really didn't think i was succeeding because they were a well-oiled machine almost everyone i worked with in that writer's room now has their own tv show and i was just out of my

element yeah i mean that kind of speaks to which you know i've heard you talk about many times like the the shonda university of it all where like shonda and betsy i mean obviously are you know prolific, but they're also prolific, I think, in the way that they develop young talent. Like when they believe in someone, they put them up to the plate to swing the bat, but they are very good about letting you find your own voice and autonomy. And I don't know if it's sink or swim, but they really believe in people so much that you're sort of forced to rise to the occasion you know oh definitely and i was i got depressed like because as a writer you're like alone with your computer and then here you're in this room of extroverts x theater people

acting out every scene like super fast monologues that you could just put on tv and i was like oh um it definitely was sink or swim now it was you know it was lucky to be there that was the other thing you feel so lucky to be there you're like why am i failing but they they took a shot on me because they could have just been like oh that one year like you contributed a little bit i think there was a strike that year too so that gave me a little bit of time to mentally prepare myself again um and they just yeah a lot of there's a lot of mentors in the room and i spent six years there wow um and that's like more than a master's and it's like getting a doctorate yeah i mean it's just like us on murder, you know, six years of working with a lot of people that had a lot more

talent or talent. I mean, more talent than me, but a lot more experience than us experience. And yeah, you it's, it's, yeah, it's like getting a doctorate where you come out and you're like, Oh, I kind of know what I'm doing now. Speaking for myself. Yeah. Matt, you've always known. Uh, I was gonna say, it also reminds me of like, you know, that sort of that saying, like luck is when preparation meets opportunity and you know pete you obviously have some natural talent um surely and also we're doing the thing you're you know writing the stacks of volumes up to your nose you know and like and then the luck part is when we just like get the right opportunity where we get to be in that room and be with people who are like supportive and want to see you

succeed and you know and also if i could just take a moment of interjection i think i wanted to do this in the beginning, but also, and I was like, I can do it at the end, but I just want to do it now. I just want to say, I'm so grateful for you and the leader that you were on set and the curiosity and openness and humility that you brought to it. In addition to just like the creative brilliance that truly allowed us to step into our fullness as actors and to truly, you know, change our lives. You know, there's like just so much deep gratitude for that. And, um, I've been, it's keep, I keep wanting to say it throughout the day. I'm like, no, it's not a great time, but I just want to, I just want to say it. And I just, cause I think it's, you know,

it's important to express whenever I've, you know, whenever it's felt. So I just want to say thank you for that. And so, you know, we really deeply appreciate you. I have a big smile on my face. Thank you. I'm taking that in and I appreciate it. And I will have a million things to say back to you who knew we would be such mush eggs yeah yeah cool wow yeah i'm not gonna follow that up but i feel the same way of course we'll be right back now back to class well let's just dive into high with murder like matt in the casting process was probably like the first or second person we cast and that character that on the script was only called doucheface and like you were well known at this point you were on orange is the

new black you're so good when you popped up on my video when i was watching the auditions i was like he what is auditioning and he's auditioning for this part and then they were like you're everyone linda lowe our casting director and the network was like get him like i was like yeah i don't understand so when you say you're grateful for me i'm like grateful for you because you took a flyer and it was not even a character that it could have been smaller kind of a bit once we were lucky enough to get you to do it you brought all this like dementiality to it and also it was just this like oh phew the show needs this like relief valve of humor yeah um and you were just but also like oh but he can do anything he can do the humor and the drama and it now is a

full-fledged character and i think that's what each of you always brought to it it like opened my brain in a way so anyway the gratitude is two ways thank you yeah i appreciate that yeah and it is yeah i've talked about something before on the podcast it is a little bit of a vulnerable thing when you're like when you're told like oh we're gonna make this role more than it is on paper you're like, Oh God, I want to trust that. And obviously it ended up being definitely that, but it's, it is scary. And, you know, initially when you're like, Oh God, I'm just trusting, you know, trusting the word rather than what's on the page. Um, but yeah, yeah. But I think that that's also a testament Pete to you where, I mean, Matt, of course,

but even like Conrad, you know, like Conrad comes in just for that pilot episode and you had the insight to see him and see how good he was and think, okay, well, we need to expand this role. So, I mean, now that we're already there, like, I guess a lot of people had questions about process and casting and how casting affected, you know, these ideas that you had on the page. I mean, you've written a pilot. Was that it? Like, did you have any idea of where it was going or were you really just you know writing a tv pilot that you then sell and going you know from there i don't remember i want to say i did not know where it was going i think the process which is really interesting in tv is it tells you what the show is and it tells you with the casting oh the

character isn't that oh the character is this what jack's bringing to it and then it's like slowly building a world as you see the auditions and then you see the shooting of it and what it looks like and it hopefully just starts to become more and more real um but it's i like to say that i didn't know much because i really remember it that way and that was the fun part of the collaboration is like you're building a foundation and then the walls and then there's a house and and that's the fun part like to me that's what i love about tv it's not like a book where you're just like okay here it is it's all it's cooked yeah it's like it's not cooked at all and then somehow you bamboozle the studio or network to think you know more than you do but it's a dance

yeah you're just listening well and it seems for you to make these like leapfrogs in your career and and have this like you know imposter syndrome of like am i failing in these rooms you didn't pick an easy route like you decided to write about law school which you've never been to and then on top of that you you use this like time device with the flash forwards which yeah and i don't know if this is true but like i feel like i had heard that shonda often encourages writers to write themselves into a corner and then write themselves out of it which again i don't know if she actually ever has said that but no i think she maybe doesn't consciously know that or she wouldn't say that out loud,

but you would watch it happen all the time in a writer's room. Totally. Well, regardless, it feels like that was, like Matt and I talked about this in recapping the pilot where we were like, oh my God, he reveals that Sam Keating is dead at the end of the pilot.

Like where the hell do you go from here? Right. And there've just been so many questions from people about process and like structurally how the show works. And I know speaking for myself that at times as an actor, it was really frustrating. It was hard to, to do these flash forward scenes and not know necessarily where it was going. And there, you know, over

the course of years on a show and like with your, with your work family, you know, I had to learn to trust you and the other writers that you guys were taking care of us. Right. But I wonder if you can speak at all to that, just because it's, I think one of the most engaging things, like I remember reading the script during pilot season and seeing the flash forwards and thinking oh this is interesting like i'm not seeing this on television so yeah i think broadly if you can talk about like just how you decided to do that and if there were challenges and surprises or oh i definitely hated myself that we did it in episode two and three and four and then like season five like are we still supposed to be doing these like um it was it's just again the naive delusion of

the pilot came out that way and it sounded really good in the pitch and then not thinking and not knowing how hard it would be to keep doing that also i had no idea how hard it would be for actors to play it like i had no empathy or like it's not empathy i didn't understand that that would be really confusing and frustrating for you because i'd be like i don't know just do something and and i'll make it work like i was like give me like what you do is gonna write the script in episode seven um so that is like why oh my god so good to be naive yeah totally um versus like making yourself right carefully and i think as an audience right i'm thrilled when i watch something that feels like breaking structural rules or like giving away the thing way too early

yeah totally like oh i thought you know versus like i can watch the first episode in the seventh episode and i don't miss anything you know in between like that's it's like when you're kind of in conversation with the audience like i'm i'm gonna do the scary thing yeah yeah totally i mean and it works like watching it for the first time as a viewer i'm like oh this is this is so fun i'm terrified to watch it again because i'm like afraid that it won't work or you see all it works i mean i definitely feel like the first season i don't like was so fun like in terms of the twist and we I knew we wanted it to move really fast like that was it's actually like a blessing and a curse because even now I feel like I don't know how to do that

but I'm trying to write new things I'm like oh it's I'm doing I'm going slower because I almost think I know too much I'm trying to save myself pain later that's funny but it's yeah I'm glad it still kind of works yeah no it definitely works um something I was curious about too which I saw this question on Reddit, which I thought was really good. This person euphoria asked when you first created it, was there a core idea or theme that you knew that you absolutely wanted to protect from the pilot to the finale, which, again, like, I don't know if you get it because you were writing from this place of like, let's see if it works, right. But in watching it, it seems like you do sprinkle in like, Laurel has this line, you know, in the pilot, it's murder,

none of us know what we're talking about like it seems like you you were sprinkling in sort of these like big thematic ideas in these like singular lines you're smiling oh my god I have no idea also I'm the worst type of writer in terms I don't think of theme there's some networks and streamers that are like the theme the theme and like it makes my brain freeze yeah but Sean was actually really good with theme like every Grey's Anatomy episode has a theme right um and if I'm gonna under like put it in when you say it like that i'm like oh there are definitely things i'm interested in and cared about like in terms of writing characters i think i didn't now i can say like oh i like to write characters who are other yep like hidden in some way or just because that's

sort of how i feel in the going through the world also like the performance that we all do in the public versus private like i think that's obviously a queer theme that's like inside of us but i don't think of it as like an intellectual or outward thing i'm like yeah it's like an experience yeah and maybe it's also like it's murder none of us know what we're talking about like that's me like as i'm writing yeah you know i think it's probably a subconscious just telling on yourself i like that we can print that that's cool that's cool speaking of all this in terms like the direction of the show and all that and just like thinking about how much that's influenced by casting and and all those things i'm curious i remember before viola was i don't know it was

before viola's cast or after but i remember hearing like rumblings of like who else was in consideration and i heard like one other name and i'm like oh it just it would have been an entirely different show it's almost like a choose your own adventure sort of thing right where every new piece that like comes into it, like creates like a fork in the road. But, you know, I think we would love to, first of all, hear about, I mean, I'm just, I'm getting kind of giddy, which is fun, but like, I'm interested in like hearing both about the process of like what it was like to be able to get Viola and also even just like what the conversation was before that, were there other people in consideration, like what that was like? Yeah. Well, you get a pilot

pickup and obviously that was the role that you try to get someone who's a name and i think i pitched it except for you matt except for that that's right and um i would probably still like you know you're like kate blanchett like you know just you pick like an oscar-winning famous actress who you know you're never gonna get but like it elevates your trash and at this point right like it's also remember like movie stars were not doing they were just starting to do more tv never exactly yeah at this point this was i remember like kevin bacon like was in a fox show at the time and that was a big right right so such a different landscape anyway yeah so that like obviously we never tried to get kate blanchett um you just wouldn't try honestly you would never

try to get viola davis but i'll tell you how that happened so yeah there were this name of a list actresses you get and you're like yes right yes everyone yeah of course all of them related together yeah exactly at the same time you are you are doing auditions in case everyone on the list all 50 of them say no but you do have to like pick one at a time which is basically like stupid you're just like sure i think like diane lane i love diane lane and that's like one name you're like sure like she's never gonna do it and then guess what i don't even know if they even read you know, like, so the way I think we only did that once or twice. And then Viola was always at the top of the list. And Linda Lowy was talking to her manager about actually someone else. We

were screen testing. I kind of wish I remembered who this actor was like a screen test for one of your roles. I forget who, one of the students. Was it Elfie? No, no, no. Someone we did not test. and she was talking to viola's manager about like the deal for this guy and so every day linda was like on the phone about this other screen test and then she asked the manager she's like what about viola for the lead and the manager's oh she's never gonna do that and then like i think linda could tell you more you should have her definitely she was like the manager's like well i'll talk to her sure yeah i'll see if she wants to read it and like within a few days it came back that she was interested she read it she had questions it wasn't like she wants to do it

it's like she is actually intrigued because it's something she hasn't gotten to play but it's all she says she wants to play is someone complicated yeah different than what she's played before so that's how that happened i will say like it took a lot of convincing not from her like we had to get on the phone with her really quickly and Shonda was there because I was like I don't know what to say to her and she was vile she's like look I don't get to play I don't get offered roles like this it says she's mysterious and intriguing and sexy like in the pilot it said all that she's like I don't get that's not how I picture myself I remember Shonda being like well that's how we picture you wow you are that you are sexy you are mysterious you are and you're

brilliant like you can do anything and then she was like okay i do want to know like what she's like because she's obviously all these badass things but like what is she really like and i was like oh god this is where the conversation goes south i don't know whatever you want like if it's you playing her it's really deep yeah and she talked about this about the moment where she's alone like in a mirror and like just really interested in the private moments and so that's really launched the theme of the show is private yeah for all the characters like what are you and you're not performing and um then she also said i want to see this woman without her wig like what does she look like without her wig literally and i was like you want to do that in the pilot and

she was like well sure and i don't know you decide i was like well we i definitely think we can do that like i would if she's like i want to be a space alien i'd be like okay we definitely could do that like this was like easy because at the time i had no idea what it would symbolize what it would meant how she would perform it like what the cultural relevance of it would be i was just like oh yeah of course you can you can like wear glasses if you want like i didn't get it yeah and so then she said yes and then you know you still have to like convince the network that that's the best person to offer it to and that's where i was like remember a week and i was like really annoyed because i was like don't you see it yeah of course and if anything i'll give myself credit

on this podcast for that like i'm good at seeing what will work yeah and especially like the both of you like that worked and like when i saw like jack like going through that audition process like seen a million connors always being like oh i don't like this character yeah but i like him because he's so you know that brash and obnoxious thing can be really off-putting like confidence but then like literally no one performed it well until i saw your self-tape or whatever it was i was like wait you've had this for three weeks and i think it like just hadn't been seen by yeah but that's where i'm like no no like i know in my gut so that's how i felt with viola just like this makes it just awesome yeah and like so much deeper than what you're seeing on the page just

reading it yeah whoever's making the decision but they got it too eventually they just needed to have their brains twisted a second well and like to to gas you up too i think i mean to affirm that yes you are good at that and i think that you are also incredibly good at throughout the course of the entire life of the show, you did have an open door policy where we would go up and talk through character ideas with you pitch ideas. And oftentimes you you took those ideas and you Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And you and you executed them. And I relied on those meetings because you're just Yeah, you're squeezing your brain like I can only hold so much about each character and like but you're playing it every day and then i didn't know how smart you would

all be at that um at like the story building and knowing your character and also like really willing to be even weirder and darker than yeah i thought you the character would go you all had a very like twisted incident yeah i mean that's something we've talked about already where i feel like matt coming into the pilot with as much experience that he had you know being on orange and how uh helpful that was for me as like a very green young actor and i think you know speaking of themes like that's something that continued through the entire series was all of us sort of learning from each other and responding to what one another was doing on set or in the in the writer's room and was made all all that much better by you know linda lowey bringing these

incredible you know seasonal actors and guest stars and like it really did feel especially once you know everyone wanted to be on the show with viola right and so we were we were getting like the the cream of the crop to have these actors come in and and elevate with what was already a great show and so it did feel you know speaking of shonda university like it really for me it really felt like that where i was like oh this is better than going and getting you know going to yale grad acting no offense asia um you know i don't i don't need to go to yale now because i'm on set with all of you right but i think that you set the tone with that where you know we've all heard the stories where there's a lot of like closed door writers and showrunners

and it's like my way or the highway and you i just want to give you your flowers because like you did not do that and even like when i was personally struggling with the structure of the show and not knowing what was going to happen next like you would have me come up to your office and like we'd have a coffee and just like talk through stuff and you would assure me like you're doing great this is great you're doing great work your your performance is helping us right like you just have to trust and yeah and i was learning with you i hope i was able to say that definitely and those moments because i was like jack yeah it has to air next year yeah right right we got to do it yeah yeah i don't know who killed lila right um yeah it was madness when i think about that

and so yeah and everyone was learning at the same time and good but that's the thing i'd watch it i'd be like oh whatever the angst of having to get to that performance would always work and i guess because it was an angsty show yeah if it was a comedy i don't know if it would have benefited yeah as much as i mean you've already answered this but someone else not a robot asked if you felt pressure to come up with the crazy plot twists which it's it seems like it was just a constant state of yeah especially like look the first season like was a giant hit and because we did so much and sort of didn't leave anything on the floor the second season in retrospect was so hard to even like okay we're starting again and that feeling of like oh this isn't organic to

the story this is a limited season like you know which i think a lot of shows are now because you just tell the whole story and you're like oh am i manufacturing things after i think what i loved about network tv and i still hope we're back in a period of this is the ensemble it's not just the plot twist it's the character depth and the character excavation which with the right actors and you giving me your insights and you learning about things like oh we do have a lot more story to tell but the plot twists oh boy it was hard yeah did okay on on that note did you because you talked about you know your meteoric rise and how that felt did you like when the show came out did you feel were you on that mountain like did you feel good at all or was it like no and that's

i think now i would really try to feel good like i know like once we premiered and it was like did really well the numbers it was always like less the next week and less the next week and like that's was the natural i mean it was still huge yeah but like in my i would watch that be like oh they're gonna see through yeah the imposter syndrome yeah um and also like i remember viola won an emmy and we um like when she won the emmy i was in the it was sunday but i was in the office with all the writers because we were so behind i think it was season two and like it was never like yeah you got your flowers and you just get to rest every episode was so hard for me and i think that's like a maybe i would be better now i'd be like okay we're kashanda i would go to her and be

like i'm really stuck and she'd be like it's like don't you get stressed you have two of these or three of these and she goes oh no i don't get stressed i just know it's gonna work out wow and that's the attitude i would hope to bring because that's the time it's like it only works out if yeah we were you're you're like 36 when the show starts like i think somewhere yeah we're we were reflecting on that when we were recapping the pilot where i was watching it and i i have you know ingrained memories of like being on in philly with liza and charlie and thinking that they were like so seasoned and so adult and so cool and so talented and now i'm watching and i'm like hang on a minute they are the age that i am now and so i think it's really contextualized

for me too in revisiting it just how young you were and like to to be in this and you sure yeah i was barely born yeah but yeah but you would carry yourself like you were totally confident cool with this i'm like i'm just here doing that's that delusion right yeah yeah but or the performance whenever that you're just i was like didn't worry about any of you that way that's nice to hear but yeah i think that it it really jumped off the page to me that realizing that you were the age i am now and thinking about yeah like what would i do if i were put in that position and i think that you it'd be great why but that's what i was gonna say i think that you did great like i think you handled it with a lot of empathy and finesse you know yeah and and i think just

being honest and transparent about your concerns and anxieties at the time is also really helpful and grounding i think you know what what a lot of people would do that you didn't do that would be very not helpful is try to mask that. Right. And like, try to like hide that and like behind like a bluster or, you know, or whatever. And, and I felt like you were very honest in that just you were, are continue to be just very approachable, you know? And I think just having that honesty, you know, allows for us and the other creatives to be, you know, forthright about our own sort of anxieties about things and, and the things that we're kind of questioning and thinking about. So I might've done that with other people, but you're making me realize like

the bluster. I definitely probably did it with other people. Like, but I think in retro, I'm like, Oh, we were all in the same position. Like I actually felt closer to your relationship to like, you know, feeling green and not knowing what we're doing versus like, you know, a network boss being like, Oh no, I'm fine. I know what I'm doing. So like, that's interesting that you saw that side because I know there was another side that I just it's nice to think like oh I like related hell yeah well it's that's very cool to hear and I think it's it's really interesting to hear the sort of like fish out of water relation that you had to the character of Wes because I feel in in watching it for the first time as a viewer Matt and I were talking about how

meta it was that like we all were joining this huge television show and and sort of this like fake it till you make it thing that at least i felt and that's really what the characters on screen are doing you know like they're all just like like we'll figure this out yeah and that's brilliant annalise keating it's like oh this is brilliant totally it's like yeah art imitating yeah it's very cool there are i mean yeah a lot of questions we already talked about all of the flash forwards that something people are like continuously surprised by is like that we didn't shoot uh chronologically which oh that was so cool the way that the flash forwards like some in philadelphia and then you're in like griffith park and hot los angeles in your winter coats and

it blended right in or the bonfire like i remember when you're all like playing the alibi at the bonfire and i was like this just cuts right in yeah movie yeah yeah matt was matt was actually talking about last episode how he felt when he was in philly like a little bit of sadness maybe in in not being there on night x because you know and so like even that as like a singular example was that were you just excluding like did you know like i need to remove asher because of x y and z or was it just a i think it was a red herring instinct especially in the pilot of like oh he's gonna be the one in the blanket yeah that makes sense annoying guy that you don't care about and i was like well it can't be him because then you don't really care right so i think it started

yeah but then how meta is that that you're like feeling like asher not getting to do all these yes fun scenes and you're like in your hotel room the only one exactly exactly that's exactly what happened yeah i was saying i remember also like taking a picture like when we were doing the hair and makeup tests and we had uh and then there was one photo they wanted just like the murder night kids uh you know without me in it and they were like oh if you just go to the side and i remember taking a photo of it i don't remember but it was necessary because it was like you needed to see what the people who were in that scene how they looked in their outfits together it wouldn't make wouldn't have made sense for me to just be like hey i'm here yeah they just photoshopped me out

um but yeah yeah it was just funny but i remember in my in my mind being like oh that's so sad um but then also again those scenes were hard to shoot and later when we were in la i was glad to have the rest so you know you weren't you weren't shooting yeah you weren't shooting fraturdays right exactly for listeners that's when you when you film friday night into saturday morning for for net scenes yeah yeah we had fun but it would they were difficult they speaking of it they would always stick you guys on the frowder days because they're like oh the young ones can handle yeah of course you're not you're not making viola davis do that which makes a lot of sense but i speaking of it being hot in los angeles p i don't know if you knew this or remember it but

i you know because i sweat so much they were they were i forgot yeah yeah they were worried about me just like sweating in every scene when we're supposed to be out in like the philadelphia winter and when we were filming the pilot it was like a record-breaking winter it was freezing and so the prop department made me a vest made out of ice packs that they put underneath my you know connor's suits because you know we had like the winter coats and everything gloves yeah you yeah the whole thing and so it was bulky enough that they had me in like this this custom-made uh ice pack vest and it like still it still barely worked like i was still i was just like having like cold sweats you know it worked for the performance yeah it totally worked for the

performance yeah was was there i i actually had this thought um when i was watching episode two but was there anything from the pilot that was cut that you didn't want to be cut oh it was brutal at the time because every you know every episode you have to get it down to the exact second um i think yeah there was one scene which in retrospect we didn't need and was probably better for the future of the show where we kind of showed that frank like stole laurel's file and put her in the chosen group um which was too simplistic but i was at the time was like no we have to like understand why laurel was picked because annalise is such a jerk to her um of course later you we came up with something better that she's chosen for her wealth and

connection so stuff like that but in and also getting it down like frame by frame and like you're cutting everything we had this great editor matt ramsey who was just brilliant and so fast and was like you don't need he'd been a tv pro and so he's like you don't need this you don't need that it's like those are my babies you're killing my babies that he would just like no watch it without yeah he's like nobody cares yeah um right yeah sure and that makes sense i had to cut your scene with like alfie it was like starting your friendship i think it was the first scene we ever shot it was like the very first scene of the pilot you were like you just had like a kind of a nothing scene about like i'm gonna beat you at this and no i'm gonna beat you i don't remember

that like where clanner was a dick uh wes again not necessary but like i remember not liking but we we filmed it yeah it was the very first scene we shot where did it take place at the city hall exterior yeah okay that's interesting because i my memory we i mean we must have shot the same day like my memory is that the first scene i shot was when we are exiting city hall and and annalise like has the press conference that was the second one wow so elfie and i shot a scene for that it's so it's so funny we're we're gonna have elfie on the show which we're very excited about fantastic um but it's so it's been so funny like him and i texting about it because i have a terrible memory and he also has a not great memory and so we're both like such unreliable narrators about our time

on the show no i have a picture of it too i can send it to you like i love that but i remember i like went and it said my name on the back of the chair like i remember it all because it was and like it was like an easy scene i guess just two people just two guys and it wasn't that deep but that was just comfort time it is funny like the little kernels that you hold like i remember being in my trailer on location for that like outside and it was the first time i'd been in a trailer of that size and i remember um we originally had uh like a pinky ring for connor and i remember sending a photo to my my girlfriend at the time and was like should i rock pinky rings like and then the pinky ring i think goes away in like later seasons um but like i just have like a

very crystallized memory of that but then i don't remember shooting the scene with alfie which is so funny also maybe just speaks to me and like my my fashionista where i'm i'm more concerned about the the pinky ring but the clothes were good the clothes were so good yeah i guess like that that's an interesting thing to to talk about a little bit is yeah and you you touched on it with like the wig scene right but it feels like and and you know maybe studying pop culture at brown like played into this but like everything from like the fashion to you know these character study like quiet moments with viola and and so many other characters to you know the themes that we explore in the legal system, like it did become this like cultural juggernaut. I mean,

I remember you and I, I think you and Betsy emailed Conrad and I and you had said that after one of the prep episodes aired, someone had reached out to you from like the CDC or something like that and said that they had seen an uptick in prescriptions for prep after the show aired and i mean that that's so mind-boggling as as an actor where you're like oh you're part of something that is like influencing cultural change which matt you can speak to much more you know better than i can but what did that feel like as the person that like had created because obviously like you said like you don't set out to be like i'm gonna change culture with my tv pilot but then you you did in a lot of ways i think i remember that um i think i was spoiled about that

because on gray's anatomy there would do like you know something about maternal health and like women saving their pregnancy with xyz medicine or something and like the the cdc would like write like one percent of women like we lessen the death rate or something like so i was like oh this is possible like sort of like again the naive like delusion of like oh we put something on tv and it teaches people something right so but in retrospect that's crazy because especially in our world now where everything's so bifurcated and yeah like does anyone do we all get the same message not at all right yeah i do remember feeling like oh my god whatever viola davis says the audience is gonna like listen to and so especially as the show went on and she would take

on like this legal clinic cases or you know immigrant cases like it was very cathartic and cool that we could teach like because the professor she's a professor she's teaching the audience and you have the best actor and actors like saying these lines it's like oh this is a great platform to say something yeah which i mean and like you know i joked about it before but like that is likely why it inspired so many people to go to law school is because like we were you were tackling real issues that mattered and weren't being shown on network television yeah what kind of job like where you actually impact people's personal life like as a lawyer or doctor it's very inspiring absolutely well i think that we should start wrapping up here um oh something i wanted to

tell you pete because i think it would just warm your heart and is i think in line with this idea of the show continuing to have an impact is i'm doing chicago med right now because ashley bauer who was the first team pa yeah you remember on murder she is the medical research assistant in the room which i'm sure you're familiar with from gray's yeah and they gave her the mid-season finale to write this season and of course there was like a anxious villain and she thought oh jack would be great at this um so in the same yeah the shonda university it's now like the pete nowak university where like people are continuing to like develop and get these stepping stone jobs all from being on set on murder and you know it's it's staying in the

family in a small way which is really cool and like you did that it was very cool good to her i did not know she at the time i don't think she wanted to be a writer but that's amazing of course she's got it of course yeah of course i love that matt do you have anything else to add before we let pete i can't believe our time has uh has almost come to an end this is so fun i'm really happy you guys are doing this yeah yeah thank you yeah we're definitely it's just you know like you said kind of you know the tendency to want to kind of just keep moving forward can be very strong and i think it's just so i just you know having such a structured way to like look back and really kind of like reminisce and it's just such a beautiful experience and i'm i'm again super grateful for

you and and also really grateful that you came on and i was excited to hear the stories you were sharing and the learnings and very a lot of gratitude no this is selfish for me good selfish for all of us reminisce and also enjoy you guys and see how much we all like grew up together it's like yeah it's like we went to college yeah like quite quite literally or or like summer camp you know because it was more fun it was more fun than college at least yeah my experience yeah um the last question pete which a lot of people obviously are excited about but like is there anything that you can tease that you're working on or is it all i would tease it if it felt more real like i'm lucky i'm getting to write pilots that have a lot of mystery elements that are in

different settings that you both would be very excellent in parts with you know same themes i like a dark character like um i just don't know what's gonna happen to them that's like in terms of i'm trying to like this is very good for me because it reminds me of like what worked about how to go with murder and just to like take some risk make it fun for the audience but i'm you know i'm definitely trying it's just like if only i knew how lucky i was to just like write that script can get it made and then it's on tv yeah uh it's a rare thing so but it's it's good we're inspiring each other to to keep doing it yeah hopefully we can we can all walk away from this and be a little bit more delusional because i think that's yes i think that's a good takeaway yeah okay let's end

there we love you we're so so appreciative that you came on um yeah i mean it changed our lives you know yeah mutual thanks bud what an experience all right bye bye wow dude that was awesome yeah oh my god i love pete yeah i really really love that guy um i also feel really grateful that pete and i have lived in this in a similar neighborhood in los angeles for years and i feel like the show wrapping has allowed us to develop more of a friendship yeah you know and the number of times he's like reached out to me and just been like hey let's get coffee in the neighborhood and yeah i feel very grateful i think just like from that conversation i i i'm i'm brimming with with a lot of gratitude yeah and yeah how are you feeling beautiful yeah i feel i

feel really great it's been it's been a while since i've seen him and talked to him and and i'm just really i love that this show gets to be a vehicle for that you know for reconnecting with people and you know such a talented writer but just a really kind gentle spirit you know and yeah so I'm really feeling grateful yeah yeah yeah yeah I still love the review I still need to I need to hit Elfie up about this at some point but I can't believe that there's a whole they shot a whole we shot a whole scene that I don't remember right yeah yeah I feel like it's going to become a theme where i am i you and i are calling or texting pete being like hey what happened here are we missing something yeah yeah um which is also a lovely thing about the

show is that we're just going to get all of these different perspectives of what did or did not happen yeah we should do a an audiobook version which is just the show from your memory each episode is like two minutes long and my memory yeah yeah there's just whole episode like there's seasons just right yeah yeah exactly i also really like the conversation like i love just going into the new year i do want to be more delusional you know about art and about like i think yeah like i just bought i just bought a watercolor set and i think that this is in line with the conversation the three of us just had where it's like am i gonna learn to watercolor at 36 maybe yeah but I think being, if I'm taking anything from this conversation,

yeah, let's do it. Let's be delusional. Let's watercolor. No, I love that. Okay. So next week we have, for our dear listeners, we are going to be recapping episode two, which is titled It's All Her Fault.

So this is a game that we're going to play now, Matt, is we're going to guess who said the line because every episode is a line spoken from the show from that episode right yeah yeah right right right from that episode not just generally from the show yeah correct so who do you have a guess for it's all her fault let's say we can say it at the same time yeah okay three eight nine ten Michaela yes yeah I also think why do you think Michaela I think she just the way she speaks yeah yeah what is that what do you think uh i think that there's just something there's something rhythmically about the michaela lines and this feels like one of them yeah i feel

like it's also not the last time she's gonna say something like that i feel like that's a recurring thing yeah so you're saying she's blaming a lot of people yeah i'm saying she's blaming a lot of people and it's redundant sure just kidding all right well next week we are going to i can't wait to watch this episode i really can't because i remember nothing nothing about it but it will be the first episode that we shoot in los angeles after the show gets picked up yeah and we're going to talk about that we're going to talk about moving to los angeles we're going to talk about um i do i do something really stupid between filming the pilot and filming the first episode in los angeles we're going to talk about that and thank let's just say thank god i got on the

screen actor guild health insurance oh i miss having that yeah sure since i'm disabled you mean to bring it up to the next week all right tune in next week thank you so much for listening love you guys bye bye that's it for today's show thanks for joining us and see you next week for a new episode they drop every thursday and don't be late because the professor doesn't like to wait How We Got Away With Murder is an original production by Podcast Nation. Produced by James Brown and Alicia Panier. Audio production by Miles Carter.

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