HR BESTIES - HR Besties: Ageism with Special Guest and Meeting Crasher Maureen Wiley Clough

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hello besties. Guess what? We have a meeting crasher with us today. Not again. I know. Another colleague from down the hall wants to crash our recurring meeting here. Welcome Maureen Wiley-Clough, who is the podcaster extraordinaire and advocate on ageism all across the socials, host of It Gets Late Early. Welcome, Maureen. Thank you for having me. And I think I might be the only person who's had the distinction of having had all three

Starting point is 00:00:40 of the HR besties on my podcast. So I am so pumped to be here. Wow. Look at you. You're earning those corporate badges there. Thanks for having us on your show. We have just been itching to return the favor and have you in our meeting. Because you've decided to join us though, you are on the hook today for the cringe speak, the hot goss, and then of course the hot topic today will be all things ageism at work. Maureen, don't let Lee scare you. She's always itching for other reasons, state school reasons, but we're itching to have you on as well.

Starting point is 00:01:19 Scabies. Scabies. I'm stoked to be here. This is going to be so fun. It's going to be so fun. It's going to be so fun. Yes. So Maureen, why don't you kick us off with just a little light water cooler talk, little hot goss. What's going on? I'm going to tell on myself here and I'm going to bring us back to an earlier period that I know probably wasn't any of our favorites.

Starting point is 00:01:43 Do you remember the year 2020? Do you remember what that was like? Barrett- Blacked it out. Yeah, yeah. That's going to come up later in this story. We were trying to get by during COVID. We were doing anything it took, which included, in some cases, heavily drinking, I would say. Lots of ISIS. Yep, yep. At lots of places. We were also in jobs. We were working throughout COVID,

Starting point is 00:02:08 right? And I was fortunate enough to be able to hold mine through the pandemic and had remote work and all of that. And we had some forced fun around the holidays, right? Where we were just like, Hey, everybody, let's get the team together. Let's have a remote happy hour. Do you remember those remote happy hours? Yeah. Oh God. Yeah. Yeah. I'm kind of cringing just remembering it. But so I am an excellent corporate employee and I came, I brought my best self. I showed up. I really, I kind of overdid it. I had a great time at the corporate happy hour as one should, right? I'm a team player. And after this whole hour long, two hour long session concluded, which by the way, I'm like, how did we even do that?

Starting point is 00:02:50 How did we even have a happy hour remotely? I don't even understand. How do we talk about things? There were like 15 of us. That doesn't even make sense to me conceptually now, but good on them for trying to have fun. But at the conclusion of it, I got a ding on my phone and it was a meeting alert. And I was like, oh, oh my gosh,

Starting point is 00:03:10 I have an interview in 10 minutes, an interview for a job that I was excited about. And I was like, I'm at this moment where I can do one of two things. I can cancel at the absolute 11th hour and look like a jackass and totally unprofessional, or I can try and get through this interview. Drunk. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:03:34 Are you drunk interviewed? I drunk interviewed. I love this already. Oh my God. Oh my gosh. I've never heard of that. Tell us everything. I think I saw this case scenario on a Facebook

Starting point is 00:03:45 group of HR that's like, I think this person drunk interviewed Maureen. It was you. Yeah. So I was like, yeah, I'm going to go for it. I think I'm fine. I didn't do anything embarrassing. Because you were drunk. So of course you're like, I'm going to do this. I'm ready for this. If I don't say so myself, I'm a really good interviewee. So I was like, okay, I've got this. So I did the interview and apparently it went, well, do I remember much of it? Nope. But they called me back, you guys. I got the let's move you forward. So that was telling on myself. But yeah, it was one of the least professional moments of my life that was accidental entirely. But yeah, somehow I pulled it off. So I'm Irish,

Starting point is 00:04:27 my name's Maureen. So maybe that's the thing. Yeah. So that's, I'm telling on myself. I'm telling on myself. That's my hot goss. Like I'm not advocating that we all do that. Nor am I. But I could see how a little liquid courage could go a long way. Especially if you have interview anxiety. I'm just saying, I'm not saying everyone go out there and drink before an interview. I am not, but I can see how you could have pulled that off. You know what I mean? Like- I wouldn't recommend it though. Don't do it.

Starting point is 00:04:55 Not ideal. Not ideal. It worked out well for me in that case, but you know, hey, it could have gone super south. Lee, I could see you pulling that off. Lee, I could see you pulling that off. Jamie, I could see you pulling that off. I could not pull that off. I would be crazy. I would be over explaining. If you smell something on my breath, we're on a Zoom.

Starting point is 00:05:18 Oh, yeah. Like wine stain lips. That's amazing. And you don't remember anything about the interview? I'm so curious. Very little. Like wine stain lips. That's amazing. And you don't remember anything about the interview? I'm so curious. Very little. Very, very little.

Starting point is 00:05:30 Oh, wow. So you were really... And I thought I was fine. And then later I was like, what happened? Well, you know, I will say when the ladies and I have gotten together to record the podcast, sometimes like over a weekend, and I drink. And I feel like I am much better of a podcaster when I've been drinking. We'll do an alpha beta test and try it out and see if we'll do a poll on our story. Do you think we're drunk? Did we take a Viagummy before this?

Starting point is 00:06:02 Before this. Shout out our podcast sponsor. Thank you. But I can see that. Again, can't advocate for it. Nope. Now, quick call out. Maureen, you texted me last night in anticipation of today, and you asked me, are we doing this sober or do I start drinking at 8 a.m.? And I was like, Oh girl, it is a work day girl. I mean, it is like 1030 in the morning. Like my time, like I ain't drinking. Are you? It's so funny. Are we drinking? Are we doing it? I did ask that. Yes, you did. I mean, it would be so fun one day to have this just be our job. I guess I kind of, I like working though, I will be honest with you.

Starting point is 00:06:45 I met someone recently, and they had a friend of a friend. And she asked, what do you do? Is this what you do? Make videos pretending to talk to a boss and talk to people in the HR space. And I was like, no, no, I run my own business. She was like, oh, that sounds like a lot of work. And I'm like, it is.

Starting point is 00:07:03 Entrepreneurial life. Or worker peace. It would be great to have. What would you all pick a Bloody Mary or a mimosa? What's your pick between the two? Neither. Do I have another option or no? Well, between the two, the mimosa, cause I don't like sour or I like sweet. I'm going Bloody Mary, but I'm going Bloody Maria with you. Oh shit girl. I'm saying Bloody Mary. Jamie, I would do a mimosa too if I had to choose.

Starting point is 00:07:25 I like a bourbon Mary. I tried that once on assembly. I didn't have, well, I was going, it's going to sound awful. I was going on a wine tour, like a North Georgia wine tour, the Napa Valley of the Southeast. And I didn't have any vodka, so I made a bourbon Mary and I've been from Kentucky. It is quite good, I will say, I think. What would you have, Lee, though? What's your go-to morning drink? Mouthwash? Morning drink? Oh God, mouthwash. Like my old boss. It's got to be a morning drink.

Starting point is 00:07:55 If it's morning time, your time, you go to brunch, what would you prefer to order? Some cocktail that they have. Like something special, you know? Like something Instagrammable because it's brunch time. Like something I can't make myself with the ingredients. Something high falutin. You know what I mean? No screwdrivers. But if I was just out at the bar, I do vodka. Vodka water with lime. Vodka straight, double Tito's. Damn.

Starting point is 00:08:21 I know. State school. I'm like, I'll take a white cloth. A white cloth. A white cloth. A white cloth and a vial. Well, this took a turn here. So moving on. Let's stick with our agenda, people. We got people to see and things to do.

Starting point is 00:08:44 Almost said people to do and things to do. I almost said people to do and things to see, but anyway, that too. So next on our agenda, cringe corporate speak per usual, but brought to us by the guest colleague, Crasher from down the hall. Maureen, what cringe corporate speak do you bring to the table for us today? So many to choose from. I wholly applaud you for this effort to eradicate this from the corporate world. So thank you for your service. One that I cannot stand is culture fit. The concept of culture fit, it needs to go away. Because what it means is people like us. And with that, you can sweep

Starting point is 00:09:27 out so many people, right? Because you just have that confirmation bias of we want, you know, the guy I'm going to grab a beer with, right? That's getting back to our alcohol discussion, which was unintended, driving us in a different direction. But like, that is what happens. And so you end up looking for the same type of person. And I don't think it's necessarily malicious in nature. I don't think people set out to do this. But when you have that as the standard by which you're hiring, people fit into a mold or they don't.

Starting point is 00:09:56 And so when you get someone who's, for example, older or younger or a different race or gender or whatever from what is sort of like the basis of the company, that invites all sorts of unintentional bias and discrimination. So I think it should be culture add, full stop. Love it. Culture add, not culture fit. You know, they use executive presence the same way. Yes.

Starting point is 00:10:19 Right? Yeah, we talked about that one. It is very similar, very similar. You know, I had a leader say that culture fit term before. Well, I just don't know if they fit in here. I don't know if it's the right fit or fit, culture fit, right? All that. And I was like, why? Oh, it's like, oh, they have to say why, right? I mean, just gently pushing back, asking the questions. Well, why not? Let them explain themselves because sometimes they do check that unconscious bias. You know what I mean? They're like, oh, well, well, okay, well, you know, they kind of work through it. Like it's interesting. Like you

Starting point is 00:10:57 said, it's not the majority of times it's not malicious. It's an unconscious bias like hires like, right? It's comfortable, it's familiar. But just pushing back a little bit just by a why can really help. Have you all heard this? A simple why, you're right. Do you all hear this? Yes, definitely have. 100%.

Starting point is 00:11:16 Yeah. And some of the most toxic places I've worked too. Yeah, yeah. I would say that's the hallmark of all the toxic places where I've been is the culture fit concept, for sure. At the time, I didn't necessarily think anything of it. It was only as I got older and started thinking more about, what does this really mean? Then I realized, looking back in my career, I saw this happen. At the time, I didn't know what the problem was. I was like, why aren't we going with this guy? He has the exact experience we need. We need someone to guide the way.

Starting point is 00:11:45 He was older. What did our organization do? We picked the younger guy because he was the guy who you wanted to get a beer with. That was actually what was going on. No one figured it out. Now belatedly, I'm like, ah, that was it. Wow. I think you see culture fit even more than executive presence, because I do think it

Starting point is 00:12:07 speaks to that. As much as we just joked about drinking and things like that, when you're in the workplace, I do think that's one of the top areas you see it, especially when it's a really unhealthy culture where it's super, like the work hard, play hard. But play hard means excessive drinking, sacrificing, giving up. So, it's when people do have family obligations outside of work, or people are older, or someone somehow mentions that they're not a drinker. People say, what if they're culture-fed? Are they going to feel uncomfortable coming to our happy hours?

Starting point is 00:12:37 People should feel comfortable and safe at work. I do think that's one that's a real hot topic at work. It's probably a good topic for a whole other episode, to be honest with you. Yes. Oh gosh, I know I have so many comments. Let's write that down because I want to go on a tangent and hear about, well, this one time I was told... Let me look at my doodle notebook where I'm writing all my drawings and I'll add some actually real meeting notes in here. I know, literally. Exactly. I will say,

Starting point is 00:13:05 Maureen, that that cringe corporate speak of yours is a perfect segue to the hot topic of today's meeting. And that is all things ageism, age discrimination at work, right? Just everything in that realm, which you've become quite the voice for across the social. So we appreciate your hard work and advocacy in this space. Thank you so much. So kick us off. Any stats you want to share? Anything to get us kicked off to turn this topic inside out? Well, I think first of all, it's important to note this is such a widespread problem in society that one out of every two of us, a full 50% of the world population is ageist, according to the World Health Organization. One in two.

Starting point is 00:13:53 I think half those people are lying because I think we all are just a little bit ageist. And it's not even our fault. We've been fed these messages in society since the moment of our birth, essentially, that getting older is bad. For women in particular, it's the worst thing you can do. Think of the whole anti-aging beauty industrial complex and how much damn money we spend trying to look younger. It's been inculcated in our society and we have marginalized people who've gotten older for the fact that they've been breathing longer than we have, which is just like so

Starting point is 00:14:30 ludicrous and like aging is the whole damn point of life. And so we have a really strong undercurrent that we have to fight and like move upstream against and people don't even know it's wrong. Like casual ageism throughout society, like jokes abound all over the place, social media, in the workplace, everywhere. People have their own internalized ageism that we have to all work through first. It all really starts with us, and it's going to be an uphill climb. I know myself, I've struggled with it. climb. And I know myself, I've struggled with it. But this all, like all of this came to the surface for me when I was 37 years old at this tech startup. And this guy called me a dino because I didn't know how to put a GIF in Slack. And I was like, what, who

Starting point is 00:15:18 are you calling? What? Are you kidding? And then I looked around, I was like, holy shit, he's kind of right. You're like, I am a stegosaur. I like a T-Rex better personally. But like, I looked around and I was like, oh my God, I am one of the oldest people here. How the hell is that possible? Like my CEO was younger. And I looked around and I was like the only older people or people around my age were in like senior director, VP, C-suite position.

Starting point is 00:15:46 It was wild. So it really, it really woke me up that, oh gosh, like actually this is happening and has been happening even at bigger companies that were like market leaders that I've worked for. And I saw it happening and I just like shoved it aside and didn't think about it, but like aging out of corporate and in tech especially,

Starting point is 00:16:05 it's a thing. And it's just right there under the surface and no one was talking about it. I'm like, this is literally the only ism that gets all of us. Right? And it gets people. That is so true. It's everybody is going to face this, even white guys. If you're lucky.

Starting point is 00:16:21 If you're lucky. Yeah. Exactly. If you're lucky. And for women, what I've learned over the course of doing this show and becoming a total nerd and researching all of this is that women get it a lot earlier. And actually young women in a recent McKinsey and Lean In report that was done in 2024 on Women at Work, younger women actually reported ageism at more alarming rates than older women, which blew my mind. And so the concept that you can be ageist against a young person is really an

Starting point is 00:16:51 important one. And I know we touched on that in the episodes that you guys did on my show, right? Like people can be discarded and marginalized and not taken seriously because they're quote, too young for a job. People have that stereotype about young people too. It really, truly does get all of us. The intersectionality with race or gender or any sort of marginalized group status, it makes it infinitely worse. You have an exponentially harder time. It's not something we can just ignore simply because it happens to all of us. It happens to certain people worse. And it does get everyone. So let's all get on board and fight it because we've got to get these stereotypes out of our minds. They're wrong. They've been proven false. And the whole damn point is getting older. We're living. Why do we do

Starting point is 00:17:39 this? So I feel super passionately about talking about it because it's just like literally 92% of organizations pulled by PWC don't include age as something as a point of focus when they think about their employee population. 92% failure rate, guys. So like we've got to work on this. And these biases have like very widespread implications beyond just the actual employee. They hurt the organization.

Starting point is 00:18:02 I could go on forever. Like there are so many reasons we need to talk about this. So thank you for- Talking about it. ... doing it. I know, right? I mean, I love the collective ism line. That's so true. It's a communal ism. It's something, again, if you're privileged Again, if you're privileged to live a long life that unfortunately you may experience, is that what spurred you creating the podcast? How did the podcast, it gets late early come to be? It was that realization that this hits everyone and yet no one's talking about it.

Starting point is 00:18:39 I was like, that is sheer lunacy to me that there isn't someone out there talking about the impact on the workplace. And I went into it as more of a guide. I certainly wasn't an expert or anything when I started because I didn't know anything. And I wanted to carve out a place for us to have this discussion because it does touch everybody. And I felt really strongly as someone who had just hit 40

Starting point is 00:19:04 and was kind of having a moment guys, like turning 40 is like a moment, especially I would say in a woman's life because of all those awful shitty ageist messages we've been fed our whole lives. And so I was kind of at this crush was like, what am I doing with my life? Is this it? Like, and I realized I had never felt like more confident or happier or anything in my life. And I was like, wait, we've all been fed this bullshit lie that it's over at 40.

Starting point is 00:19:30 And that's just not freaking true. And I want to make sure that people know that that's not the case. So it was part, I want to explore this fully and part, I want to show that we all have a next second act and a new path. And it's not too late, right? So it was both of those things. And I've just, I mean, it's been like, for sure the most wonderful thing that I've ever done.

Starting point is 00:19:52 Like I've been so thrilled with the response and the ability to meet such incredible people, grow my network and community. I just have made great friends. Hello, like you three, like it's just been amazing. So it was all those things. But yeah, I just, I really, I mean, we're talking or at least up until recently, we've been talking and giving a platform to the concept of inclusion and diversity. And I was like, this is the missing puzzle piece that hasn't been injected into the conversation. And I want to do that. So help in some small way, hopefully. Jamie, I'm curious because you're still in the thick of the HR corporate girl

Starting point is 00:20:29 world. But how do you, do you talk about it proactively? I mean, I know a lot of times we see it by people who are older and applying for jobs and will say, I'm applying, I see ageism, how do you combat it? But do you address it internally proactively with your managers as HR? I think you have to. And I think you have to bring it to the forefront as a part of DEIB. I think it needs to be included. I'm also in a startup.

Starting point is 00:20:58 I've done startups because of course I like the mess. Masochistic. But you do see that. Yes, I am. But you do see that. Yes, I am. But you do see that a lot. So a lot of the leadership is younger and I'm now one of the older people and I'm... Happens real quick. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:21:14 And it's like, God, am I a cultural fit? But I'm the personality hire, so it works out. But yeah, I mean, it's like constantly viewing it and making sure that you're hiring the best person regardless of age, gender, race, religion, you know what I mean? And I think, like you mentioned earlier, like hires like, and then you just get stuck in this wheel of the same people. And there aren't the best business outcomes from having a homogenous group. That has been proven.

Starting point is 00:21:48 We know this. Right. Experience. People will say, oh, but older employees, they cost more because of their salary. Well, they're also- Experience. Yeah, they have experience. They have it.

Starting point is 00:21:57 I think Flippian said, but you know who's doing something about this that I like? The state of Colorado. We've talked about them in our episode on salary transparency because Colorado was the leader in this and as a state, so those not in the US, the US has this whole patchwork. You can have federal laws that apply to the whole US. It's really hard to get those anything done in Congress or in the government agencies. States and cities often in the US have different laws. I think you'll really continue to see that, especially with a new presidential administration. Colorado has been a leader. They were the ones that required salary transparency

Starting point is 00:22:29 and job postings. What you saw in that, I remember, I mentioned this when I first started seeing it, it would say, applicants in Colorado, for national roles. I wasn't at a law firm in that point in time, so I was like, what the heck is this? I probably said something other than heck. But employers, don't just provide it for Colorado. It's so silly that people often have this attitude of, what do we have to do? Well, now Colorado, in July of 2024, now they have a law there that you cannot require applicants to put their, really anything that identifies their age from their date of birth, but also things like the year they graduated. If they graduated in a degree, high school, college, advanced degree, you can't require those that can't be held against them if they don't.

Starting point is 00:23:15 What you see now, you'll start to see this pop up. If you're listening to this, Google Colorado age, whatever, and you'll see some of these job postings that yet again say, Colorado applicants, you don't have to put this shit in. It won't be held against you. Which, again, the enforcement mechanisms are hard. But my recommendation is every employer, every employer, put that language in. And don't put the language that reads like it came straight from the like, begrudgingly like, no, of course, I guess we'll put this in there. You read the world's womp-womp job description, but that is one way. It takes not just having language in the job description, but having this proactive training.

Starting point is 00:23:56 I think, Jayme, your point is having this. That is an option that may not occur to people. Colorado is doing some very innovative things that don't take a lot of effort. It shouldn't be required, yet here we are. Look at that language in employers. Think about whether you can add that to your job postings and then also have that internal training to your teams about not asking questions about it. What does that mean to not hold it against somebody?

Starting point is 00:24:20 Or, someone shows up and you're like, I would have thought this person was 27. They look about 95. That training is necessary and required. But that's one thing. If you haven't seen that and you're listening, go Google the variety of words and you'll see that. Colorado's crushing it. I actually interviewed on my podcast someone who was behind that whole push to get the Job Application Fairness Act on the docket really in the state of Colorado. And I'm like, dude, until it's national, let's everyone move to Colorado. That is rad. So you're totally right. Colorado is on the forefront.

Starting point is 00:24:53 Yeah. It's like better than California now with employee rights. Yeah. But I like what they're doing because often it's like things that don't, they don't call someone. It's just, it's like just transparency. It's stuff that you should not be legally required to give. I do think it's cool. And some of the other things Colorado has done as a state, I do think are very cool and great ideas. So it's like common sense. And there's so many applications though, that have that voluntary data that you can provide. And you know, I'm always a little skittish with that. I'm like,

Starting point is 00:25:20 is this really going to be like unidentifiable? Like, are they really keeping this separate from my application? Maybe you guys can tell me. But I'm always a little suspect of that. Let's face it, modern work life is complicated. But good news, we're here for you. I'm Kayla Lopez. And I'm Kyle Hegge.

Starting point is 00:25:39 And together we've helped thousands of Morning Brew subscribers grow in their careers. And now as the co-host of Purr My Last Email, we're bringing that advice straight to you each week with hot takes and tactics on how to succeed in every area of work. Whether that's figuring out if you're being underpaid. Or how to stand out in a remote work environment. So join us each week on Purr My Last Email on Spotify, Apple, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Starting point is 00:26:02 I also find it really funny when I see, and this happens routinely, I'll look at these job applications and look at these companies and be like, oh, cool. They want me to say when I was born, and then I'll go to their LinkedIn, and it's very clear that they don't have anyone over 40 at the company. I'm like, why are you setting yourself up for people

Starting point is 00:26:20 to think that you're discriminated? Why would you even include, if you're going to discriminate, why would you include this in if you're going to discriminate, why would you include this in your list of things to fill out? Like it just, what is going on? But I think, you know, applicants who are worried about ageism, you know, it's going to happen. Like you are going to be discriminated against.

Starting point is 00:26:36 Like there's just no way around that because people, people are ageist. Like I'm working on my own ageism, right? We've all been growing up with this stuff, right? But there are some things you can do and you need to have the mindset of like, you're going to control what you can control. And one of those things you can control is proactively seeking out companies that seem to actually give a damn about people across all generations.

Starting point is 00:26:56 And those are the ones you should target. If you see someone at a, if you see a company that's doing this, like maybe don't apply there, right? Because you're unlikely to get that job. Is that fair? Absolutely not. It's bullshit. But it's life.

Starting point is 00:27:10 And so move on to a company that actually gives a damn about it. Everybody is my advice, right? But they're just, I think there does need it. Jamie, I'm so glad, and obviously all of you, you get this, right? And you understand that your organizations, you would want to bring this conversation up. We're all getting older. let's do this, right? But there is a systemic issue in not only just hiring managers, but also frankly in recruiters, which is fascinating to me because I thought

Starting point is 00:27:35 the recruiters would be more kind of up to speed on not being discriminatory. But there was a survey that came out recently, it was published in the Times in the UK, and it said that up to around 50% of recruiters thought that 57% was, quote, too old to hire someone for a job. That's recruiters. And that was shocking to me because that would be the group that I thought would be more well-versed on this being like not a thing to do. And then I saw another survey, and granted these were different surveys, but another survey was done with hiring managers. And 42% of hiring managers had a, they admitted to a bias against someone based on age and they went in both directions. Like you

Starting point is 00:28:14 could be too young or too old. But I was shocked that the hiring managers weren't more biased because they wouldn't necessarily have been given all of the tools that you would think would be existent in in an HR team function. So can you talk to me a little bit about that? I was just shocked by that. I think it's probably because hiring managers on average are going to be older themselves. You know what I mean? So that's the correlation, in my opinion.

Starting point is 00:28:43 It's not causation, but I would think that a lot of leaders in an organization or managers are more mid-career, late-career. Maybe they're not as biased on age because they themselves are a little older. Again, I don't have the research. I just pulled that out my ass right now. You know what I mean? That's just what my gut tells me based on my experience in corporate. I am not the Oracle. That's for a day, I'm sure. Yeah. I thought that was interesting. That does make sense. They were also saying that they were

Starting point is 00:29:15 biased against younger candidates too. But again, those are the only ones that said, I am biased. They raised their hand and actually admitted it. So it's probably higher. But yeah, I found that really interesting. That doesn't surprise me either because I've had a lot of leaders or hiring managers relay that they don't want to manage or lead their kids. Right? So you have people entering the workforce that are their children's ages. And I'm just like, okay. Like technically you wouldn't be, but you know. So it is, like you said, it does go both ways, you know, on that discrimination, young and old.

Starting point is 00:29:56 And it sucks that women get hit harder on both ends there. But then there's also things where managers don't know what to do with their employees who are older. I mean, one is your people that'll say, I think this person's going to retire. Can I ask them when they're going to retire? Asking people personal information like that is not the good idea that I understand you think it is. You're like, I'm trying to plan, and I totally hear that.

Starting point is 00:30:18 But thinking of the perspective of someone who's older in the workplace, who already is thinking that, and someone asks them, are you going to retire? And so I'll say, or, but also on the flip side of people that are doing like performance reviews and they'll have someone they're like, the person told me like this is gonna be my last job. I don't want to move up. We can have the conversation about my development goals and all of this bullshit, but like I'm not interested in that.

Starting point is 00:30:41 And that is true. And I say to people, a way to phrase that in performance conversations or coaching conversations is, what matters to you? What are you looking for? As people get closer to retire and have told you, this is my plan, I want to begin being supportive, people sometimes change their minds on those dates. But thinking of those opportunities, how employees, how you can flip it and have them train on things, there's a lot of using that expertise is one of the best ways to show people, especially at that age, that they're valued. Sometimes it's like to just do a talk on things you've learned in your career.

Starting point is 00:31:13 No matter what the person's role is, they don't have to have a chief title. Just an experienced employee, the things you've learned. People love those sessions because it can be super practical. They do. There's a new study that came out just like yesterday. It was referenced in Harvard Business Review. And it was about AI and ageism impacting the implementation of AI in organizations.

Starting point is 00:31:33 And as you can imagine, there's a huge bias and a preference for roles that include AI work for youth, like under 35. It was like a massive disparity between that and people who are over 50. And so what's happening is you have these experienced professionals who have that sort of crystallized knowledge, with under 35, it was a massive disparity between that and people who were over 50. What's happening is you have these experienced professionals who have that crystallized knowledge, who know what to do, who have that industry expertise, the context, all of that stuff, who aren't being given the opportunity to use these AI tools and help the whole organization.

Starting point is 00:32:00 It's just creating these silos and these disparities in usage, which are actually going to have really widespread implications. And so, what's so important is, Ashley, you so brilliantly just suggested getting an older employee, which by the way, you also suggested on your episode, which I love. Give these older employees the platform to showcase their expertise and their experience, give career advice, et cetera. Do the same thing with the power super users of AI. Right now, most people are self-taught AI users.

Starting point is 00:32:28 It's not like a skills-based program embedded in a corporate entity. That's where it will go and needs to go, I think, if we want the optimal outcomes. But there are super users of AI who are over 40 in most organizations. It's a smaller percentage because there's just not as much adoption yet. But give those people the chance to show everybody what they're doing with it, because they've been around the block and they're experienced, and that can help the other less experienced employees level up. There's such a need for intergenerational mentorship. Mentorship doesn't just go from the old person, the elder, like the wisdom passing down to the younger generation. My mentor is a 28 year old Gen Z dude. I adore him. He teaches me so much. Like it's crazy. And so it can go both ways, but there's just like so

Starting point is 00:33:17 much richness and so much value that can be derived by just getting us to freaking talk to one another. Like there's another study that came out that said like 50% of people in Gen Z hadn't talked to someone over 50 in a year or so. It was a LinkedIn study, I can't remember the exact. It was insane. It was such a wide disparity. People just aren't communicating. Part of that is the tools that they use might be different. Maybe someone's a Slack person, another person likes email or the phone. But we just aren't being smart about this, and we're literally losing money because of it. Like companies only give a damn about the bottom line and increasing shareholder value. So like, for God's sake, like care about this. Like this really freaking matters.

Starting point is 00:33:54 Ooh, that's a hard stop today. So just FYI, like most days. And so questions and comments. Let's transition to questions and comments. I got one for you guys. As a people, I really, I need to understand. I need to understand this because there must be something I'm missing. So business is business, layoffs happen, shit happens. It's corporate. This is how it goes. But I, for the life of me, cannot

Starting point is 00:34:30 understand the decision to publicly label departing impacted laid off slash fired employees as quote, low performers, which has been done at Meta and other companies of late. Why? Why would a company do that? Why not just say we had a reduction in force? Why not just say we had a restructuring? Literally anything else. Why? Can you please help me get it? To target blame and justify the term. Jeez, it's just so... But there's probably a legal answer, Ashley, right? No, no, no. The legal... No. The lawyers, I guarantee you, the lawyers don't like that. HR did not approve it. The comms team shit themselves.

Starting point is 00:35:10 People that say that, including someone that has gone through a self-proclaimed glow-up or self-believed glow-up, is that they care more about their shareholders than the human beings that work for them. That's it. That's it. Money. Money. That's it. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:35:31 Money. That's why I'm glad people have spoken up, that have shown their performance reviews and they're like, no, no, I was not a low performer. Sorry. And you are going to see a lot of wild comms and headlines out of organizations that are still founder led. And that's a great example. Like Mark wrote that.

Starting point is 00:35:47 You know what I mean? Mark also said young people are just smarter. So now over 40, I wonder if he's going to reframe that perspective. And that is tough. That's a tough place to work. It is for me because they really don't have a lot of checks and balances. You know, they don't have a lot of people being honest with them and giving them that feedback. They're't have a lot of people being honest with them and giving

Starting point is 00:36:05 them that feedback. They're running the show ads, all the things. Because it ain't safe to do so, right? Nope. Hell no. Group think like, yes men, male men. Emphasis on male. Exactly. Any other questions or comments? I had a quick comment. I would like ageism to affect our government because I'm really sick of old white men making decisions about my body.

Starting point is 00:36:35 So if they could just age them out, that'd be cool. I love that. it really is when you look at, especially like some people in politics, you're like, I'm sorry, what? It's amazing. There's not more protections. I mean, in the U.S., there are protections in layoffs for older people in that. If you were over 40, that's why you'll see this like age disclosure document, what they call like addendum A or exhibit A. And it lists like the group and who was considered for layoff, who wasn't

Starting point is 00:37:07 with their titles and numbers. That's why that is a federal law that does require that. Many people get it wrong and don't do it properly. But I was going to say, I've heard so many stories of that being fudged or like not provided at all, but yes. Yeah. I mean, that's why I'm always like plaintiffs, employment attorneys know to like look for that right away. And they're like, tell me more about this document.

Starting point is 00:37:28 Not a question for me, but a quick comment. Maureen, you were talking about how age discrimination goes really both ways, right? I mean, you get it when you're older, you get it when you're younger. And I just wanted to share that when I reflect on my career, the times that I believe I was discriminated against due to age, it was when I reflect on my career, the times that I believe I was discriminated against due to age, it was when I was younger. Being a Hispanic female and having become an executive, like in my 20s, early, I mean, boy, did I stand out in the boardrooms.

Starting point is 00:38:01 I was the only one that looked like me. Many times I was asked, how old are you? How old are you, bitch? I mean, it took me all I had, all I had to, I mean, you know what I mean? God, I wish you had said that. Oh my God. How the fuck old are you, mother fucker? I mean, oh my gosh. Then I would start jobs and I'd be leading teams and the team would ask me, how old are you? And things like that because I'd be the youngest leading the team.

Starting point is 00:38:36 But yeah, so those are when I reflect, it's like, well, early, I don't think I've hit the age one yet that I can perceive myself. I'm sure I have, but I haven't felt it the way I did when I was younger, people being blatant about it. Don't worry, it's going to get us on both ends. It's coming. It's coming in hot. It's coming in hot.

Starting point is 00:39:00 We're going to be invisible soon. That's the other thing I'm told to look forward to is like... Exactly. Cannot wait. Good times for everybody. Ashley, round us out. What you got? I'll round out to give advice that I got from my Aunt Norma. That's really my husband's Aunt Norma, but it's really now my Aunt Norma, which she told me in my 20s, which was to have friendships across different generations. And it didn't mean as much to me then as it

Starting point is 00:39:23 does now. And I realized how thankful I am to have friendships, including at work with people of different generations, some that are still very close. One of the ways you can do that, especially if you're remote, is being friends as well with your neighbors. Talking to neighbors, especially if you're in an apartment complex or wherever you see, sometimes those older employees, I now am extremely close friends with my next-door neighbors, Jan and Jeff. We chat constantly, text. He's going to be very excited. Would you ever mention me on the podcast? Jeff, you haven't done anything scandalous yet! He used to be the team dentist for the Atlanta Braves. he's retired. But anyway, is those friendships across different generations?

Starting point is 00:40:06 And so finding those, I do think people have a lot more in common than you'd think. And you can learn life lessons older and younger. So that's a piece of advice that stuck with me. Excellent advice. I've always had those. Love it. Oh, wonderful. Well, Maureen, I think we have all learned something, which is rare. I'm an old dog, new tricks. What the hell? Especially from a meeting crasher. Normally the meeting crasher comes in and you're like, yeah, move on. No, Val, you were a culture ad today, Maureen. You were a culture ad. Oh, culture ad. There we go. Culture ad. Let's make it take off, right?

Starting point is 00:40:48 Oh, Maureen, keep speaking out on ageism. We appreciate you. Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. This was awesome. People want to learn more, they can absolutely go follow me on LinkedIn, Instagram, TikTok, the like, and certainly go to the pod at itgetslateearly.com. As of last year, AARP reached out to me and sponsored a live event with me. So now I am looking to work with more brands who actually want to talk about age at the workplace and talk through how to make intergenerational collaboration work better for all of us. So yeah, any brands that are interested in having this conversation, either as a workshop or a speech,

Starting point is 00:41:25 I'm all ears. We could also do some really fun content together. So yeah, looking forward to all that's to come. Very excited and thanks again, guys, for having me. This was awesome. Bye besties. Life sure doesn't come with a roadmap, but what if you had a guide? I'm Tamsen, and on The Tamsen Show, I'm here to help you navigate midlife, menopause, career shifts, and everything in between. Like a best friend or a big sister who's been there, with expert guests, real conversations, and actionable advice, this is your go-to podcast for living better, loving stronger, and taking charge of your wellbeing.

Starting point is 00:42:07 Listen to The Tamsen Show wherever you get your podcasts because it's time to own it.

HR BESTIES - HR Besties: Ageism with Special Guest and Meeting Crasher Maureen Wiley Clough

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.