HR BESTIES - HR Besties: Culture of fear

Starting point is 00:00:00 We talk a lot about how important it is to get feedback and communicate and on all those things at work, right? We sure do. Sometimes that's not the best idea. And I don't mean in generally, but I mean specifically is being thoughtful in what you're asking for and maybe thinking a couple steps ahead of what that feedback might be. So this was sent in by a bestie who had said at their workplace, they had a webinar. and they had webinar because they were all working remotely.

Starting point is 00:00:33 And during this webinar, they announced that they were going to be having a return to the office in this workplace. Oh, boo. And there hadn't been a lot of discussion about that. So it's not one of those things where they're like, oh, we saw it coming. There's been this feedback. Like, it was pretty surprising. And also it was like not the first topic of the conversation. Like, it was topic four.

Starting point is 00:00:57 Oh, God. It was brushed under the rug. Right, right. One of those that we've all kind of sat through and you get it, but you also know. Anyway, but at the end of this, they said, okay, we want to try something. And so during it, they'd had, like, comments kind of suppressed, but they said at the end, we want to get feedback. So we're going to do this cool new tool that we have with IT called a WordCloud. And so you can, you can use your phone, your personal device. And we, you know, from this meeting, we would love to hear your thoughts on the meeting and get your, get your input. So people start scanning the QR code. They start typing things up. And so all of a sudden words stop appearing on the screen. Oh, I know where this is going. And they were saying, you know, feel free to add it about any aspects of this, like the, you know, the results, the company, the culture, like tag a buddy, tag all these things. No one was making things about that because they was all about return to office. Yeah. Fuck this shit. Exactly. Exactly. It was literally like

Starting point is 00:01:56 a word cloud of exactly what, I mean, I don't want to just say HR, like, anybody, my thing I've said in the past, of some of the best, instead of just having like a big PR agency or things, the best thing sometimes you can't do is ask like an executive assistant that's been there a while or junior employee, like, how might this be received? And they would have told you exactly what appeared on screen, which was like disgusted, disappointment, horrified, like, pissed, like penis. Oh, that would be Jamie. That would be Jamie. demotivated like all of the things exactly and this person's like and then of course she's like you can see people then on the screen trying to take a picture of the word cloud and they're all kind of like they know

Starting point is 00:02:37 a screen check because they're like did she did not she did not and i'm sure colleagues do but they're afraid to but it was they were like it's exactly what you would think and so they're so dumb quitting is the biggest word yeah quitting yeah yeah yeah two weeks yeah yes yes yes someone said looking for a new job. Because they also had said beforehand, this is anonymous, so we're not going to be able to track who did what, you know, who did what. Oh, that's dangerous. I'd keep refreshing. So anyway, sometimes just knowing, asking for feedback is important, but maybe think about asking that in advance and anticipating it. But they got the message. Oh, my gosh. That is the dumbest shit I've ever. That is some executive is like, I have this great idea. And no one, no one in the room was

Starting point is 00:03:22 like, I don't know how well that will be received with our previous message. Like, no what. Well, that shows to me that that leader, and that was a CEO leading that conversation, but probably does have a fear-based culture. Good segue. That is an excellent segue, because that is the hot topic of this meeting. But first, quick rundown on the agenda. We always start with that hot goss. Thank you so much, Ashley. That is hot. Word clouds.

Starting point is 00:04:02 Friend or foe? You tell me. Next up, some cringe corporate speak. Jamie's on the hook for that. And then that hot topic, oh gosh, fear-based cultures, a culture of fear. Are you in one? Are you scared to speak up? You know, do you clinch your ass?

Starting point is 00:04:22 ass when you have a one-on-one with your boss. I mean, all these things, right? Not necessarily professionalism. It could be fear, right? So we are going to turn that inside out, share some signs. You may be in a fear-based culture and what to do about it. And then as always, questions and comments at the end. Jamie, take it away. Today's cringy corporate speak is don't throw the baby out with the bath water. That is crunch. Yeah. That's cringe.

Starting point is 00:04:56 That's totally cringe, which basically means like avoidable error, maybe something of good value, but you get rid of everything else that's unwanted, so you don't want to obviously throw the baby out. So, of course, I had to look it up because I wanted to know where it came from. It derives from a German proverb from 1512. What was it? Like a fable? Wow.

Starting point is 00:05:21 Yeah. And it was basically, it's an illustration of a woman tossing a baby out with the wastewater. And it's a common catchphrase in German, basically meaning the same thing. Like, it's an error. I thought that was interesting. That one's like probably the oldest one we've had. I assume. I mean, that, because I don't even think the open the kimono was dating back that time. I don't think back that far. Yeah, I could be wrong. No, I don't think so. You know what that reminds me of? It's like, do you remember those kids' songs? And I don't know if kids do this anymore. I bet they don't because now kids have TikTok or whatever, all this stuff. Like they're listening to more like where we would sing these nonsense songs like

Starting point is 00:06:00 Miss Mary Mac and the buttons on her back and things like that. But I remember the one where you do your hands, so like those listening to podcasts, like the hands up and down with a friend. And it would be like the rhyming thing. But I swear, there was one about like a woman named Sue and she had a baby. Like there was a baby in the bathtub. And it was like, Ms. Sue, do you know what I'm talking about? I don't think I know this one.

Starting point is 00:06:20 Ms. Susie had a baby. Susie. Yes, yes. Dame was Tiny Tim. Yeah, it was something like that. Yeah, it's kind of by, yeah. Put him in the bathtub to see if he can swim. Don't do that.

Starting point is 00:06:30 Don't do that. Don't do that. Susie needed supervision to see if he can swim. Susie was like Amelia Bedelia on like something wasn't right. Someone was given that child, that woman's supervision. She didn't deserve it. Yeah. Oh, man.

Starting point is 00:07:00 Yeah, it's all flooding back. Now I'm thinking about all those, you know, the things. It's like a real meeting. Someone says something in your mind is elsewhere. Just like besties today will say throughout the baby with the bathwater and just see if anybody in the meeting's like, remember that song from the 80s and maybe 80s, 90s. in today. We'll see. Do you all say, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater? I don't think I've ever said it. No. You? I don't think I have either. You thought about it, though. You paused. No, because I've heard it. I was trying to think who I've heard it from. You know what I mean?

Starting point is 00:07:35 I feel like Gen Xers. I've heard it from people 10, 15 years older than me, I want to say. I've heard it. Same. Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. Do either. Like, just drain it. Right? Oh, yeah, okay. Wasn't planning to. Poor baby. Oh, gosh. Thank you for that, Jamie. Cringes Hill. Now onto our hot topic today, throwing babies out with bathwater is scary. But so are some cultures. Are you in a fear-based culture? Do you know? How would you know? What are some signs you all? think of a fear-based culture, a culture of fear. I do think the intro story is one where it's an example of there's a leader that's doing something. And people around them know that it is not going to be well-received and that ultimately it's going to lead to a lot of noise and churn and all of those things, but people are afraid to speak up because, you know, whether you've seen things happen or you don't know what's going to happen, but you assume it's not, nobody wants

Starting point is 00:08:44 to deliver a counterpoint. To me, that's one of the biggest ones of a fear-based culture. Sure. Having just got out of one myself, it was very much that, I mean, I would have people approach me and be like, I'm scared to bring this up. I want to say something. I want to report it. I feel safe coming to you, but at the same time, I don't, I want to report it anonymously. It's just simple things, too, that it really stifles culture. Yeah. I mean, a culture of fear is one where there's just a lack of psychological safety, right? Instead, there's feelings of intimidation, anxiety, emotional suppression.

Starting point is 00:09:32 You know, people feel unsafe to be who they really are, you know, to be genuine, to be open, to be communicative, to you name it right oh man i have definitely worked in a number of fear-based cultures but for me those cultures it wasn't necessarily people screaming or bullying it wasn't necessarily hostile right it was all under the radar kind of i don't know how to put it you know um it it looks like people feeling unsafe to ask questions. It was leaders that couldn't say, I don't know, so they just lied instead, right? I mean, it was people weaponizing information, their knowledge, withholding their expertise, so they wouldn't be replaced. You know, it was all these kind of passive aggressive behaviors. Those were like kind of some of the actions, right, that I saw,

Starting point is 00:10:38 all the behaviors that I saw and some of the cultures I've been in. I think that really hits the nail on the head. Is the thought too, just like an employee, any employee with any role in the organization, but say, if you had an opinion or an idea, who would you share it with? Would you share it? And if their answer is nobody, then that suggests other issues of the organization. But if it's my chair with a colleague, I'm not going to share with my boss because they'll take credit.

Starting point is 00:11:07 I'm not going to share it with my boss's boss because then they'll tell me everything that I did that was wrong. I'm not. And so in that fear-based environment, I think, plays out in those, that's a really simple test. And so I think I'm a flip of that. If you're in an HR leadership position is to think, do you hear the ideas and opinions from your team members? And why may, why, if they're not sharing them, why might that not be? And again, like, who gets credit when someone shares an idea? How does that get communicated? And so I think in the newsletter, I think we'll include some this for some of these ideas of how do you talk to your teens about, like, we want to hear your ideas and when you do, this is how we give credit for them because that proactive conversation,

Starting point is 00:11:46 I think, can help a lot. And that's what can make it so hard to leave like a fear-based culture or a toxic workplace, right? Because a lot of times it isn't loud, you know, it's abusive in another way, you know, and there's a lot of gas lighting. And you question whether Was that a personal attack on me? Or am I overreacting? Because they said it with a smile. Like, you know what I mean? It is just, like, it's a mind fuck. I think sometimes you don't even realize how bad it was until you are out of it, too. Because I mean, even I'm thinking actually my last two jobs and removing myself from that. And then reflect. and being like, oh my God, what was I doing? Like, you know, and you're scared to speak up. You're scared to speak your mind.

Starting point is 00:12:46 You're scared to collaborate with people. You don't know who you can trust. I was like, it's like an episode of Survivor, you know? And, you know, who's an alliance with who? And it's cutthroat. But once again, like I've said this before, but corporate's cutthroat for no reason. Like, there's no reason it should be cutthroat. For real.

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Starting point is 00:15:56 it is to motivate people. And I come to you and I say, well, Jamie, I have a different perspective and it's worked pretty well for me my whole career. And that is that I like to motivate the, I use fear as motivator because I want my employees to respect me. And in the workplace, you know, you can be all nice and fine and good, but it comes down to results. And I get those by fear. What do you say to that manager? Well, I feel like you're just going to have that backfire on you eventually, right? One thing Lee said is that psychological safety is like, I am a firm believer. If you treat your employees well, your employees will effectively do a good job and want to do a good job and succeed for the company, but in their role too.

Starting point is 00:16:36 So leading with fear is just you're creating almost micro environments of people then, like that are forming alliances or withholding information or doing X amount of their job. I mean, you know, I've seen it with my own eyes in companies that I've worked for where you alienate people. And then ultimately, those best employees leave because they identify. it. And so you don't retain talent that way. Yeah, that's one of the big costs of fear right there, attrition skyrocketing. Yeah, because it's a bad. And a lot, sometimes it's focusing on those outcomes is people think about the short term. And one thing I think is helpful is to focus on

Starting point is 00:17:18 you. You might hit those goals today. But what are they going to do tomorrow? How are they going to show up for work? And if they were afraid, are they going to want to start getting their resume ready and they've developed all these skills? And now this is another bullet point. They can add to those. And so sometimes managers will say, okay, well, I won't give, then that's fine, then I won't give opportunities, which again leads to some more conversation about outcomes. Okay, well, then people won't be doing things. But, but on the flip side, a lot of what you do is, is, in your upcoming book, plug, is, but is to think about individuals who are in those workplaces. And so if I'm, I'm not coming to you and asking you for specific individual

Starting point is 00:17:57 advice, but I'm telling you, I'm going to order your book and I'm all these things. But if, What would you say to someone that finds themselves in that environment? They ask themselves, like, yeah, I guess that's true. I'm not asking because I don't want to get ridiculed or have credits stolen and all of those things are what I think would happen if I shared an idea. Well, this is tough because, like Jamie shared, you don't realize sometimes how bad it is. What I would say to those that are sitting there, they're listening to this, and they're asking themselves, God, I wonder if I'm in a culture of fear.

Starting point is 00:18:30 I wonder if my workplace is really working for me. I think it's important to start having the conversations with others that you trust outside of your workplace. Because oftentimes we go to work all day and we don't share anything that happens at work. We just endure it, right? We just take it in, internalize it. It becomes our new normal. But if you have kind of this gut feeling that something doesn't sit well, highly recommend talking to someone, a therapist, a friend, a neighbor, a stranger at the zoo.

Starting point is 00:19:08 Like, I don't care. But share one of your work stories that doesn't sit right with you and watch their face, right? Listen to the person that you tell that story to. And if they're like, like this horrified face, you know, that could be a sign there that you may deserve more. But I'll tell you, just that gut feel, hey, I wonder if something's wrong. That means something's wrong because you're physically feeling something. That's not working for you. So trusting that gut, trusting yourself, that's a big part of it as well, listening to yourself, having a check in, right? How does this feel? We are always getting assessed. Like every year,

Starting point is 00:19:58 We get performance appraisals, but we don't get the opportunity. Very few of us do to review our employers. That doesn't mean you can't do that informally every freaking day mentally, right? Asking yourself, how are they doing? How do I feel here? How does it feel to work here? I think that's important, too, is to check in on that because there's reciprocity in this employment relationship, and you have power in it, too.

Starting point is 00:20:26 So I think, again, having honest conversations internally with yourself and with others, I think, can help you at least recognize whether you're in a culture of fear or not. The last thing I'll say is, and again, we mention our newsletters, so we always podcasts, we love it. This is also a culmination of our work. And so our goal is to sit around and talk with each other and give tips and all of that. But also, we do have that newsletter to help you take action. That's why in these conversations, it's like, what would you do? Some of this is giving you ideas. So one of the things I'll link in the newsletter, no affiliation, but I love Harvard Business Review.

Starting point is 00:20:58 It's so much more practical than I think you'd think. I subscribe to it. I find it a great resource. There's an article by Matt Higgins from RSE Ventures, who's also been a Shark Tank Judge. It's about not letting fear hold you back. Use it to push it forward. And I think one caveat to that is Lee's point. And Lee does a lot to people like, okay, if you're in fear, sometimes you have to figure out what to do in your own environment. Sometimes there's an exit. And so really being mindful of that, that you don't always have to stay in the container in which you are right now. A lot of what I do is to work with managers and is to not have a culture of fear and to recognize you're going to hear about things that happen. And a lot of what you do, do impacts the work that gets done and the experiences people have. And a lot of what Jamie does, I think, is bring this levity, like real life, real life experiences in a very humorous way. But so one of the resources I think from HBR that I'll send over was some of the tips. And it was four tips of what to do with fear. Make yourself indispensable. Drive yourself to prepare. Take a chance and to find answers. And so I'll link that. But one of them, I think, is to prepare. To me, that's the

Starting point is 00:22:03 strongest of them because all the time you're going to be afraid. I mean, I've had times in my life. I do something at work that seems silly. Like I'm jumping on a phone call with someone and I'm terrified. Like, oh, generally not currently, but there's been plenty of times in my career and then I'm having all of the thoughts of like, this is so silly. Why am I so frustrated or worried? The number one thing you can often do when you feel out of control is to control and prepare. So think about things. Okay, what am I going to talk about? What could come up and just map those for yourself. I'm going to see someone. I haven't seen in a while. I'm going to map up for things I can talk to them about. It is not silly to overthink things. And over time, it'll feel

Starting point is 00:22:37 more natural. Some of the preparation is, to Lee's point, to think about your current environment and what you want your future to look like. But I do believe that a lot of what you can do in that fear-based environment to help yourself is to think about preparing and what that's like. Because, boy, the costs of fear are high. They really are. I've coached a lot of leaders on this because there's a lot of assholes out there. I mean, my God. And like we said, attrition, huge cost of a fear-based organization, but even worse is if people stay. Innovation dies, mistakes, rampant but hidden. Like if you are a leader that rules through fear, people aren't talking to you, you know very little information. And you're making critical business decisions

Starting point is 00:23:28 off of very little because your people don't trust you. They're not coming to you. They're not innovating. They're hiding things. You name it. It is horrific. Bees, honey, people. Okay. Yeah. Like, go ahead and throw that baby out with the bathwater then. There you go. Just throw that baby out. Jamie. You're the best. You're the best. You have so many skills. And whatever one was, you're on top of your cringe, girl. Throw it out. May as well. Shall we transition to some questions and comments? Close the meeting out, it's getting too scary. So much fear. I've got a question for y'all. Have you all ever worked in a fear-based culture? And just how did it feel? Yes. I think I've said this once

Starting point is 00:24:22 before, maybe on the pod, but when I really realized it was I was very, very sick. And I'm one of those people who will work when they're sick. Like, I go into the office. I'll even wear a mask for you. And I'll stay sequestered. But I work. Like, I'm not, but I was so sick like it was vomit. Like, it wasn't, it was something you can't be in the office for vomit. And so I left early. And the next day I woke up and I was still, like, it was like, it's only 12 hours of vomit. And so I called out. And yes, I was in pain. I was uncomfortable. But the thought of me missing work and knowing that they were probably talking shit about me, because that's what they did, I was more worried about that than missing, like, an email or it wasn't even about, like, my work.

Starting point is 00:25:12 It was about what was saying, being said about me. And that's when I knew, I literally the very next day, I didn't still feel that great, but I turned in my resignation. Because I knew it. I was like, that was my breaking point right there. Oh, man. Like falling behind on the hot goss and, you know, like the politics. Yeah, because that's how it was there. This was at where all the C-suite sat up above, you know, on the second story and, you know.

Starting point is 00:25:43 Yeah, got to have the special key card. Yep, the special key card to get in. In the law firm environment, that's the whole fear-based environment because you're always afraid of doing things wrong. And a lot of, there's expectations on responsiveness. There's so much that. And I actually generally had a better experience, I think, in the law firms I worked at. But I remember thinking so specifically.

Starting point is 00:26:05 specifically about what order I would put people on an email. Oh, yeah. Important that was and afraid of like, to the point of like, LinkedIn wasn't as big a thing then. If it was, I would have spent even a lot more time on LinkedIn looking at this. Like, where does this person fall in the war chart? And so to me, that is a fear-based environment and not as like harmful things, but it was so much mental space that got taken up.

Starting point is 00:26:29 And it just makes you then feel so hierarchical. And so to me, that always stuck up. Mm-hmm. Yeah, well, I absolutely have. And I remember just being really worried, like, if I was going to be yelled at or screamed at. I mean, I've had some experiences. Like, I was locked in a room once. I'm not even, I mean, what the fuck?

Starting point is 00:26:51 I should have called the police. I mean, crazy, crazy shit, man. But I always knew, oh, okay, yeah, this is a fear-based culture. This is scary. This isn't good. because I would start feeling worthless, and I knew I wasn't. You know, nothing about me is worthless, but those environments have a way about them, you know? It's insidious.

Starting point is 00:27:17 And so that would be kind of my core feeling. God, I feel worthless. What the fuck? What do you got, ladies? Any questions, comments? I have a quick story. I'll tell it really quick. This was that my last place of employment, which I know they listen to the pod.

Starting point is 00:27:31 So, hey, guys. I specifically remember, like, the person that created this fearful environment came in towards the tail end when I, when I, how long I had been there. And at first, first six months, nothing. No fear. And then, then all of a sudden it was, it was there. But I specifically remember joining an all-hands meeting that was for the specific group of people, our largest department, that they were having separately. And me being HR, I asked to join. once again, because I have my finger on the culture, the pulse. And this department had asked a lot of questions in our main town hall,

Starting point is 00:28:11 but they didn't want to answer them on the main town hall because there were so many. So they did a separate town hall. But instead of answering these anonymous questions that were asked, this person gets on and literally just starts yelling. You guys had all these questions. If you're not clear, you need to go to your leader. You know, we couldn't even have it. We had to have a separate town hall just to,

Starting point is 00:28:32 to answer your question, which she never end up answering any questions. But here I am, HR, camera off, mic off, and I'm like, these poor people. And they just had legitimate questions about things. And they're being yelled at from a senior top leader about questions they have. Like, no, a hard stop, absolutely the fuck not. Hmm. That's an EEOC claim, but anyway. Ashley, close this out. So I have a quote. So I mentioned this Harvard Business Review article by Matt Higgins. And in the section that talks about preparation, he's actually talking about Shark Tank

Starting point is 00:29:16 and the first time that he was a guest judge on Shark Tank. And so Matt Hagan says that before he was a guest, he became obsessed with preparing. He watched every single one of the 200 episodes that had predecessed it with his son, which was like 800 investor pitches. He took all these notes. And then he was nervous about how he'd look because not only to the audience, but also he worked with all of these people.

Starting point is 00:29:40 And so he bought this device that he would wear to make sure he didn't slouch. So he would, like, for a month. He worked for a month that would buzz him if he slouched. And so he did all these things to prepare. And so he said the night before, you know, he was up all night, he walked in for the first investor pitch of the day. In Lori Greiner, who was a regular judge on Shark Tank,

Starting point is 00:30:00 she turned to him. She put her hand on his form and she said, Matt, on a scale of one to a hundred, that was a 95. And nobody gets 100. In 10 years, no one has ever walked on a set like that and acted like they've been there since the first day. And so she gave him this like reassurance, but also just knowing, like sometimes giving people that bit of reassurance. But nobody's ever going to be 100 on the first try and you're going to grow. And it's, I mean, just like all all of us. We look at our social media videos. We post it. Like, oh, my God, I'm afraid to look at those because they look, first drafts look a little, it's a little suss. But just knowing, you will be afraid. So have the levels of preparation. And so then when you see a colleague or a

Starting point is 00:30:42 direct report or someone you don't even know, the stranger at the zoo, giving people that reassurance, you are doing great. That can be like water in the desert. Mm, water in the desert. Be water in the desert for somebody. I love that. Thank you.

HR BESTIES - HR Besties: Culture of fear

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