HR BESTIES - HR Besties: How to Make the Most of Paid Time Off

Episode Date: May 21, 2025

Today’s agenda:  Moist legal team in the night club Cringe corporate speak: mission critical Hot topic: all things time off: how to make the most of your time off and enjoy your vacation Bringing the work laptop? Total focus on what you're doing in and out of the workplace Rest to do your best How to support your team members so they can take time off comfortably Practicing what you preach as a leader or HR professional and keeping boundaries Time should be off (not "off-ish") Unlimited PTO Questions/Comments  Your To-Do List: Grab merch, submit Questions & Comments, and make sure that you’re the first to know about our In-Person Meetings (events!) at ⁠⁠https://www.hrbesties.com⁠⁠. Follow your Besties across the socials and check out our resumes here: ⁠⁠https://www.hrbesties.com/about⁠⁠.  Subscribe to the HR Besties Newsletter - ⁠⁠https://hr-besties.beehiiv.com/subscribe⁠⁠ We look forward to seeing you in our next meeting - don’t worry, we’ll have a hard stop! Yours in Business + Bullsh*t,  Leigh, Jamie & Ashley Follow Bestie Leigh! ⁠⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@hrmanifesto⁠⁠ ⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/hrmanifesto⁠⁠ ⁠⁠https://www.hrmanifesto.com⁠⁠ Follow Bestie Ashley! ⁠⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@managermethod⁠⁠  ⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/managermethod⁠⁠ ⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleyherd/⁠⁠ ⁠⁠https://managermethod.com⁠⁠ Follow Bestie Jamie! ⁠⁠https://www.millennialmisery.com/⁠⁠ Humorous Resources: ⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠ • ⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠ • ⁠⁠Threads⁠⁠ • ⁠⁠Facebook⁠⁠ • ⁠⁠X⁠⁠ Millennial Misery: ⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠ • ⁠⁠Threads⁠⁠ • ⁠⁠Facebook⁠⁠ • ⁠⁠X⁠⁠ Horrendous HR: ⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠ • ⁠⁠Threads⁠⁠ • ⁠⁠Facebook⁠⁠ Tune in to “HR Besties,” a business, work and management podcast hosted by Leigh Elena Henderson (HRManifesto), Ashley Herd (ManagerMethod) and Jamie Jackson (Humorous_Resources), where we navigate the labyrinth of corporate culture, from cringe corporate speak to toxic leadership. Whether you’re in Human Resources or not, corporate or small business, we offer sneak peeks into surviving work, hiring strategies, and making the employee experience better for all. Tune in for real talk on employee engagement, green flags in the workplace, and how to turn red flags into real change. Don't miss our chats about leadership, career coaching, and takes from work travel and watercooler gossip. Get new episodes every Wednesday, follow us on socials for the latest updates, and join us at our virtual happy hours to share your HR stories. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Have you all ever gone on a vacation with coworkers? Yeah, actually, I have. I don't think so. Why would I do that? Where'd you go, Jamie? We actually went to a lot of places. Savannah, Panama City, Chicago. I mean, we were work besties, but we also work outside of work.

Were these work trips or just fun, pure fun trips? No, these were just like fun trips. What if that was it? That was my story. Okay. So I once went on a vacation with two colleagues at work and we were in the legal department. It was another lawyer and our assistant. And we went to Miami. And part of how this trip came about is we were living in Atlanta, and we had locations kind of all over. And the head of this division was talking to us, and was like, Oh, thank you all so much for all of your work. I'm like, Oh, thanks so much. But you could really repay us with a trip to Miami. And he was like, you know what, he's like, you

all do work hard. Let me see what we can do. And then like, hook you up. Yeah, like, and so we had credit at like really nice hotels. And this was the hotel that was I just had to look it up how you pronounce it. The Fountain Blow in Miami. Is that right? I was thinking Fountain Blue. Well, I don't know, because it's EAU. So I just watched a YouTube to figure it out. But I think it's I think it's fountain, fountain blow. But anyway, we went we definitely called it fountain blue. We got a room. So the three of us shared a room, which is the topic that I think maybe we have or will cover.

But so we had a room, we were at this hotel, and we were like three moms. But we got there and like a team member from the Miami office had led us like bag with like bottle of vodka, bottle of stuff and gift cards to these super nice restaurants. Like one was, I was a restaurant was like $500 a person pre-fee. Like I'd never experienced anything, anything like that. And so we had this whole weekend and we're like going all out. But so we decided to go to the live nightclub that's there.

And we went to it for about 35 seconds because we quickly realized like I was wearing clothes very similar to what I wore to the Beyonce concert. Like it was business cash. Business cash. Business cash. I think I added a Panama hat on top to try to dress it up a little bit. We like looked around. Everybody there was like,

we just kept laughing. These guys were like, oh, we're in private equity, private, we're in private equity. And we're like, okay. And so my coworker was like, do you wanna go swimming? And we're like, sure, that sounds like a blast. And so we went upstairs, changed into our suits, and went down to the pool,

and we're like night swimming, having a good time. The security card comes around and looks at us, and it was like, the pool closed, the pool is not open. You notice, nobody a good time. The security card comes around and looks at us and was like, you know, the pool closed. The pool is not open. You notice nobody else is swimming. We're like, okay, we don't got to be rude about it and just say it's closed. Like, okay. But we'd gone to dinner and had all of these drinks and food. So we were like, let's hide behind this tree. And we'll just go to the pool over there because they kind of connect. And so we're like tiptoeing, you know, quickly go, you know, slyly go into the other pool and you're swimming. Right around there comes

the security guard who was watching the whole time. Not you again. Not you again. And he's like, it's still closed. Get out. And we're like, okay, okay. And so we're like, how do we get back to our room? And my one coworker kind of had that had it with us. Like she was already we had a lot of reindeer games and she's like, how do we get back to our room? And my one coworker kind of had that had it with us. Like, she was already we had a lot of reindeer games. And she's like, I'm going this way to the room. And we're like, I don't think that's the way she's like it is. But so my assistant and I, we were like, we'll go this way. You left your co worker. Well, she left us. She left us and she left us and smartly because she epilogue made it into like a more private, whatever escalator ride

back to the back there because we didn't have cover-ups or anything. We just were wearing our bathing suits. We didn't even have towels. There were no towels available since the pool was closed. My assistant and I walked through the lobby. Oh my God, like dripping water under a fancy hotel. Dripping water in front of Live Nightclub, which at that point in time, there's a lineup of people who are half our age, half our weight, double our height, you know, all of those things.

And so we're dripping, like dripping water. And so to this day, I'll like text, especially the system, be like most embarrassing moment, dripping water through the lobby on a trip with with my work besties. Oh, my gosh. Highly recommend. Yeah, sounds like a lot of fun. See, I think the lesson there is that it's always no unless you ask.

Like how you subtly were like, hey, well get us a trip to Miami. And they do. What? I mean, I've never heard anything like that. It was amazing. I'm not quite sure if he meant years later I'd brought back up to him, oh, we have these

really nice dinners. And I think he was a little surprised that that was the length. There must have been some miscommunication that we benefited from. But you're totally right. And also the messages. It was a great time to do that trip in 2013. Because in 2025, we would have ended up on somebody's TikTok. So simpler times.

You're completely right. Yes. Wet me ma's walking through the lobby. Thelma and Louise going through the lobby of live nightclub. But anyway, it was a blast. What time was it? It was late. It was like midnight or what?

I mean, well, having gone to Vegas with you, I know your vision of late is probably different than my version of late. It's probably like 1145. Yeah, it was like it was late. So it was like lines outside of people who all were like, what? Oh, my gosh. I love it. What in the corporate is this? The Hot Honey McRisbee is so back at McDonald's with juicy 100% Canadian raised seasoned chicken, shredded lettuce, crispy jalapenos, and that completely craveable hot honey sauce, it's a sweet heat repeat you don't wanna miss. Get your Hot Honey McCrispy today.

Available for a limited time only at McDonald's. ["Hot Honey McCrispy"] ["Hot Honey McCrispy"] Oh, gosh. That is the perfect segue into our topic for today, which is you deserve time off all things vacation, how to get the most out of it and actually enjoy it because summertime is quickly approaching, isn't it? But before we get to that hot topic, just a quick rundown of this meeting's agenda.

We've got cringe corporate speak up next and I am on the hook for that. Then of course, all things vacay and as always, some questions and comments. How's that sound? Wonderful. Wonderful. Finally, a meeting with an agenda, right? Unlike all the meetings you all are probably in today, if you're listening. So, cringe corporate speaker, are you ready for it? Here's a good one. Mission critical. Pew, pew, pew, pew, pew, pew. Oh, okay. Gosh, some Star Wars shit at work or something. It's mission critical. Is anything really mission critical at work? Depends.

Yeah, unless you work for NASA, maybe. If you work at a fire station, a hospital, all of those things, yes. Everyone else, no. And of course, it's the people that don't work in those places that use that. Exactly. Right? Oh my gosh. Do you all use that?

Mission critical? Thankfully, I have not. No, but I have heard it, but I have not used it. Same. I've definitely heard it. I have never, ever used it. I am going to search my email to make sure that's true. Right. Exactly. I feel like if I heard that in a meeting, I would probably roll my eyes so hard I'd fall out my chair. Like, I'm like, no, you can't say that. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, it is, you know, mission critical is this is super important. Oh, no! Oh, no! You've said it. You've said it. No, Ashley. I just searched my email and I found interview prep that I'd done for myself years ago for

a job where I had all of my notes. Oh my gosh. And I talked about a project I'd worked for at a company and I wrote mission critical designed workflow from scratch. Now know exactly the resources I wish I'd had like workflow and mission critical. Bing, bing. Oh, no.

Yeah. Oh, that god. Yeah. Oh, that was not chat GPT back then. That was all you. No, this was years ago. So I forgot. I was real confident I never said it until I did email search. Oh, no.

Well, Mission Critical, if you want to be extra cringy in your workplace today, try and drop that and see the eyes roll. This is mission critical. I always love that. The people, like I said, that say that are the people that have never been on a critical mission. I will say that the one exception

is if where I was prepping for an interview for was exactly the right environment to say mission critical. And so sometimes when we use corporate speak, that means when you're working somewhere. But sometimes before you work somewhere to get the job, you got to use corporate speak to make that happen. Then you can change things once you've arrived.

Yeah. I mean, you're trying to be approachable, right? Assimilate a little bit, speak their language, flex. That's important. And you can tell, you can tell from those conversations. I can often tell from that, like, this probably isn't my person, but I'm going to make them speak to their language. You're like, this is definitely a mission critical biz. Everything's on fire here. Everything's important. Yeah, everything's mission critical.

I wonder if Katy Perry said that. Oh, gosh. Sorry. Maybe. She's like, this is mission critical. That was... Oh man, yeah, that's something. Oh, wow. Anyway. Anyways, pivoting to our hot topic for today. Hopefully you all out there are planning some time off, whether it's just some R&R at home or going away, you name it, but you

deserve time off. You've got to rest to do your best work. So we're going to talk a little bit about that and how to get the most out of it and actually enjoy it. Wait, I kind of liked what you just said. You've got to rest to do your best. Oh. You've got to rest to do your best, besties. That's a nice set. It has a good ring to it. Lee the Stallion. Besties, you've got to rest to do your best.

I love it. But it's true. Do you all have to rest to do your best? Oh yeah, or I'll be a cranky ass bitch. There you go, straight facts. Mic drop, that's it. Bye y'all. Go rest, but we'll talk in this episode about not just that it's important, but to make sure that

time off is off and not off-ish. Because I've personally had this switch where I, for the very first time in my professional career, had taken a vacation years ago when I did not take my work laptop. And for me, that was literally life changing. And maybe some people would think that that's a very sad thing to say and all of that. But it was my reality in the past was I just was used to working, used to working, checking in on things and then getting involved. And so for me, it was transformational to be able to do that.

When you all travel, like when you've worked in corporate, do you take your work laptop? Do you check your work email? How do you figure that out? I mean, I have always taken my work laptop. I will say though, this summer will be the first time actually that I will not be taking your work laptop because I won't have one.

I don't know. I mean, I think that's one, my problem, my own problem, right? I created that problem myself, but you become too dependent. Not me, but like they become too dependent on you and they know you'll respond and they'll know that you'll have the answer and rather than figuring things out. So you created like some kind of codependent relationship without even realized that you did it.

But yeah, I mean, I'm definitely guilty. I mean, a lot of times I will take two computers, right? I'll take my personal laptop. My work laptop. Yeah. Because I'm like, who knows why I can't do it on my work computer. So I'll bring my... It's crazy. And then I love, I always get yelled at at the airport because I never know when the TSA... Do you want my laptop out or in the bag? I don't know. It's different at every airport and they will scream at you. What are you talking about? Every airport I have ever gone through TSA, they either want it in the bag or out of the

bag. And I've been screamed at numerous times. At the Nashville airport, I went like a month before, this was back in 2003, I took it out. They wanted it out. I went a month later to go to a conference and I put it out and he was like, you don't have to take it. I'm like, Jesus Christ. I'm like, y'all change your mind every damn day. I digress. Girl, you need pre-check. I have pre-check. Okay. Now, I didn't back in 2000, wait, 2023. I think I said 2003. Jesus, I'm old.

I know. When you said 2003, I was like, dang, that was okay. No, I did not have a laptop. I had a laptop, but I was in college. So. It was a brick. Yeah, it literally was a Sony. I got at that point in time. That was when BlackBerry's were coming out and where I worked. The people called marketers, the salespeople that traveled, they got them. I can't remember if the company paid for them.

I think starting out, one person got them and then everyone was like, that's cool. I want one. We were working in the office. The original BlackBerry, those that are like, what's a BlackBerry? Just look it up. But it was so transformational. It was like the original smartphone. But it would send the default signature, would say, in Courier New font, sent from my BlackBerry

wireless handheld. And so when we were at work, I think someone's marketer had gotten it. It was like his whole personality, having this BlackBerry. And so we, of course, couldn't help ourselves. We were in the office, didn't have one. But we would change our font and make it identical. Courier knew, like, send

my Blackberry while it's handled. And he was so stressed. He was like, did you get a Blackberry? Immediate, immediate response. Never responded to hardly anything. But like, wait, did you get a Blackberry? Like, yeah, of course. And so if you still remember those original Blackberries, give us some love on the podcast app. But Lee, what about you? Do you want a new vacation? Do you take your work laptop? What do you do?

No. I mean, I think it was very rare that I did that, but I always had a work cell phone, though, so I'd always kind of be attached on email and I would do like a once or twice a day sort of check, you know, that sort of thing. I love compartmentalization, right? Meaning that I learned maybe five, six years into my career that I can't do it all at the same time, right? It was a mentor of mine, I've said this before, he said, you can have it all, but you can't have it all at the same time. So I can't be the best at everything all the time, but I can be the best at what I'm currently

doing in that moment. So that's what I mean by compartmentalization. When I'm at work, I'm trying to give it my all, I'm trying to focus, I'm trying to do that. When I'm not at work, with family, friends, hobbies, whatever, I try to really focus on that. And it's the same for me with vacations. So I really try and focus and have the best time I can, whatever I'm doing, you know. That's helped me, but I'm glad for Mark.

May he rest in peace, you know, and that advice he gave me pretty early on. That just really shifted my perspective because I was trying to do everything and be everywhere and do everything for everyone all the time, and that's just not possible. That's how I've handled vacations. If I knew something was coming, I would try to reschedule it or push it off

from a work perspective. It's like, hey, I'm on vacation, so let me take this early before vacation. Let me shift it to after if I can, you know, that sort of thing. Try to control it, you know, so I can actually enjoy myself. So. Because that's what I think is really helpful to talk about is some of these strategies. Because as I look at my bookend of vacations, like two stick out in my mind.

One is I mentioned my first vacation, the latter, which was the first vacation I took without my laptop. And it just felt not just slightly lighter in my work bag, or I didn't have my work bag, but it just from a mindset perspective felt amazing. But before that, just a few years before that, and I was working in law firms, and one of the things you do sometimes is like non-billable work, meaning it's not actual client work. It's marketing or things are often a task for especially junior associates would be to create presentations that somebody else would deliver.

That sometimes you'd present with them. Sometimes you'd get credit for it more often like your your you aid children and junior associates shall not be seen or heard. But so for that I was on the five day girls trip and I spent like seven and a half hours one day, whole day, he'll miss the whole beach day, in the basement of this beach house working on this non-billable presentation. And I just remember like crying and thinking like, God, is this how it's going to be my whole career? And I wish now I could go back to that person because I remember the time thinking like, it won't always be like this, but I had no idea how to change it.

And for me, part of that was changing careers. But I think for a lot of people, you do kind of, it's like the frog in the boiling water. You get used to things. Like all the time you hear from people that will say, you know, I'll take time out, but I'll spend an hour or two every night on vacation after the kids go to bed or otherwise, like in the morning, I'll get up before everybody and spend an hour or two every night on vacation, after the kids go to bed, or otherwise, like in the morning, I'll get up before everybody and spend an hour on emails. It just helps me mentally. Everybody's got to work with their own working style.

But when you have the opportunity, especially when you're a leader and a coworker that can support your team members to actually take that time off, it can be transformational for their life, but also for their work. And so what are some of the strategies that you all have done or you all have seen before vacations come about to actually get ready for them or to help other people get ready for them as well? I think you should be cross-training, like constantly. Maybe it's people on your team, maybe it's your boss. So when you do

go on vacation, there is someone there to back you up and things will not just lay dormant for the week you're out or whatever. I think that's one thing I always personally hated was me coming back to 500 emails. Like, are you serious? I had my out of office on, I prepped everyone prior to, so and so should be able to handle all these things. And then you start going through your inbox and you're like, did this get resolved? Did this get resolved? And none of it got resolved.

So here I am doing double the amount of work to catch up from the week I took off. Is it even worth it that I went on PTO? Imagine transforming your life by unlocking the power of your mind. I'm Amy Morin, therapist and bestselling author, and I'm here to teach you how with my podcast, Mentally Stronger with therapist Amy Morin. With actionable strategies straight from my therapy office and wisdom from the world's leading experts, I'll equip you with the tools to conquer whatever challenges life throws your way. Whether you're overcoming mental health issues or aiming for peak performance, this podcast is your gateway to becoming mentally stronger. Subscribe to Mentally Stronger with

therapist Amy Morin. Your journey to unlocking full potential starts here. One thing I like to do is really try and pre-plan. So at the beginning of the year, looking at the entire year and just blacking dates out, just block them out on that calendar. Do the, what is it? The magenta one on Outlook. You are not there. I think it's magenta, right? Yeah, the magenta one on Outlook. You are not there. I think it's magenta, right?

Yeah, it's like a purple, yeah. I like to say I am totally out. Yeah, yeah, I'm totally out of office. People aren't putting things on there, whether you're going to be or not. You can dream big, but black out those days. That's always helped me because then nine out of 10 times, something big isn't going to hit right there if I'm really mission critical to it.

And I can then reference and say, hey, that's been blocked off of my calendar all year. You know what I mean? So just subtle things like that. But I agree with you, Ashley, kind of something you alluded to before was it's important to model this behavior for your teams too, you know, so they feel like, you know, they have the freedom to do that. Whether it's your coworkers or your team or even modeling it for your bosses and managing

up, right, and creating those boundaries for yourself and ensuring that, you know, you're actually taking that time off. It could rub off on all sorts of folks, right, all around you in your circle. Yeah, it's not a flex that you don't take vacation either. Like, that's not a flex saying, I haven't taken a vacation in three years. I don't think so. The other thing you see sometimes from people is like the joke of talking about vacation and someone saying like, I don't know what that is. I haven't taken one in years.

Yeah. and someone saying, like, I don't know what that is. I haven't taken one in years. So joking about that. But exactly that, as whatever your role, but especially when you're a leader and you say that, people hear that and it resonates, it resonates a lot. And so I do think a huge part of it is communication and talking about it. I love this idea of whether it's the beginning of the year, like Liz says, or just it's in the middle of the year.

And so you don't need to wait till January. But to talk to your teams and truly say, and so you don't need to wait till January. But to talk to your teams and truly say, and we'll have some of this in our newsletter that we have, you can go to the description to see how to sign up for that. We always include questions. And so we'll have this as part of the discussion guide and even chat GPT prompts, we have that in there. But is to talk about it, because often what people do is they make a change for themselves

and then they don't tell anybody about it. And so like, let's say you're a leader, you've taken vacation, you've beat yourself down by always being available for everything. Then you take your next vacation and you're like, hey, listen to HR Besties, I'm going to, I'm going to make this vacation completely off. Well, make sure you listen to this part, because it's also important that you communicate. Because otherwise, your team's going to be like, where's I'm waiting on these questions and answers? Like, what the heck? And then you come back and you're going to be all stressed because you're going to be like, where is I'm waiting on these questions and answers? Like, what the heck? And then you come back and you're going to be all stressed because you're going to have that inbox like Jamie's.

And so some of it is talking and talking to your team and saying, what are the things that you do that you're the only one they do? So that when you they would prevent you from being able to really relax on your vacation. Insane, it's important and we'll figure it out. We may not be able to solve everything today, but to talk about that and how we can cross train that and knowing as coworkers, some of it is helping each other out. And so as you're learning new things, you may find things you're interested in. You may think, hell, I'm glad that's not my job. If you help a coworker like that, they're likely to help you back. And it's important

for us to be able to recharge. But it's also important for us to set up our work to do that. And so talked in past episodes about having FAQ guides of things, so helping your team build those as well. But I just think a big part of it is talking about it. And the phrase that I love to say to people is, time off should be off. Time off should be off. It should not be off-ish. And so often, we're conditioned, and maybe more in the US than other countries around the world, but we're used to like really going into that ish of opening up your email, being

available, apologizing for the delay, sorry I was on the beach with my family. But life happens on that time off. And having a whole career where you don't take it, you're going to regret it and your work isn't going to be as good as if you'd taken it and also had the support around you to be able to do that. Mic drop. Another mic drop, seriously. Yeah, life is far too short. I do love the concept of communication. Everyone struggles with it, every organization, right? But I think it is Everyone struggles with it, every organization, right? But I think it is a beautiful thing to say openly with your teammates that, hey, I'm going on vacation and I'm not going to be accessible and I'm going to enjoy myself and it's going to be great. So how can I help you all to be

successful when I'm away? How can I help now so we can prepare for that? Just that, right? It can make all the difference. And then just think about the ripple effect. You know, now your coworkers or whoever else may feel safe, safer, you know, to take the vacation that they deserve to take, you know? So I think it's very profound. What are y'all's thoughts on unlimited PTO? I don't like it. I hate it too. I don't like it because of how it is in practice and the reasons that some companies have to implement it.

Tax, because especially in the US, in different places, you have to pay out vacation upon termination of employment. And generally, it's a state by state, whether you have to, whether you don't. So, that's why you see some companies that'll say, we'll do it only where we have to. And so then someone in Georgia, where I live, may be like WTF, when they're processing payroll for somebody in Colorado, Massachusetts,

that does get paid, let's say. But what that means is that vacation, from a finance perspective, is a cost. It's on the balance sheet. Because you have to pay it out. It's a real cost. And so there are companies that have a, sometimes it's a finance led decision of we're going to do this because if it's truly unlimited PTO, there can be situations where then because it's unlimited, you don't have to pay anything

out. But like many things that affect people that are a finance idea, it doesn't tend to work out so well for people. What are your thoughts, Lee? I say take it, you it, spread it out. You can't take a whole month off or anything, but three, four, five weeks. Perform, get in close with your manager, take that vacation, put it on the books, let them come to you and be like, hey,

you may be taking too much. I'd be like, prove that I'm taking too much. It's unlimited and I'm performing and going above and beyond. So because I'm taking too much. It's unlimited and I'm performing and going above and beyond. Because I'm taking that vacation, I'm able to perform for you. The only time I've seen, because I've had unlimited PTO for, I don't know, 15 years in my career, but the only time I've seen any manager have an issue with it is when someone wasn't performing.

And if someone wasn't performing, even if they took two weeks, one week, they had an issue with their PTO. So that is the only time I've seen an issue with that. But what I do see, kind of the pitfall of it too, is that it is harder to have boundaries on vacation when you have unlimited PTO. Because you're taking vacation, some people are, and you feel like, oh gosh, I have unlimited PTO, so I feel like I need to check in more perhaps, or I'm tethered still to the office. Because is it real vacation? It's just kind of confusion

abounds there because you're not marking days perhaps the same way you would if you had a certain number of days only, you know, vacation wise. So it's, I've seen it handled differently, some places very poorly and some well. What about y'all? Of course, at a startup, there was unlimited PTO, but it was literally presented as your PTO is unlimited. But if you're expected to be on a call, you should still be on the call if you're on PTO. Also the idea behind unlimited was that you wouldn't be taking as much of it if it was accrued because you might only have until the end of the year

to obviously state by state to use it. So you're going to use it, right? You're going to use your allotted amount. But unlimited, you have so much, I mean, what does it matter? You're not going to use as much. So the thought behind it is a scam to me. And the data absolutely shows that consistently. And again, my issue with unlimited PTO is that the unlimited aspect is psychological. And people tend to fill the container that you give to them. And so if you give them a generous container of paid time off and it's clear what people can have

and everyone understands how to use it, then that can be a lot more beneficial and people do use it than this unlimited PTO that nobody really knows. And then part of the problem is, with manager training, I've had organizations and they'll have an unlimited PTO policy. And I say, how does that apply in different teams? And people say, it absolutely applies in different teams.

And managers will say, we don't get training on how to think about that. And how do we hold people to performance and can we say anything. And that's what I often say to those HR context is the road to hell is paid with good intentions with unlimited PTO, generally, unless it's just finance led. But you have to teach people. It sounds ridiculous to so many people to teach people how to think about paid time off. Like, get the... No, you have to. You have to... It's in some of its... Guidance.

Guidance. Talking about it. Give people things what to expect. People just want some basic certainty. And so, from organizational, that's why I'm a much bigger fan of a larger bucket of paid time off than Unlimited, just personally based on how I've seen it. Yeah, me too. I'm such a fan of, hey, like three weeks for everyone, healthy amount of holidays, but like a sabbatical week, like company-wide shutdown. I love a holiday shutdown where everyone's off. I mean, things like that, wow, People really actually can break away from work and experience real rest, which everyone needs. Your people need that.

You need that. So I love that concept a lot more, personally. I swear by this. I think there are three things that organizations can do if they really, really want to make improvements to their retention and engagement. So to keep people and have them care about what they do. One is to have a large bucket of paid time off instead of unlimited. Two is to have those shutdowns so that it's separate from that paid time off.

But you have the whole organization, if there's anybody that truly has to be there, you really make it up to them and then some. But have everybody off so when people come back, they feel refreshed, they have fairly empty inboxes, they've actually been able to take that as an organization. And then third, that when people are off for their own vacations or the company wide shutdown, they do have, they're off, they're not offish. And if you can do those things, all of which involve taking time off, you will improve dramatically the quality of work, the quality of life, and the quality of your organizational health full stop.

Gosh, I love that. So true. Ditto. Ditto. That. Well, on that note, should we transition into questions and comments? You left us on the perfect mic drop there. Thank you.

Any questions or comments? I have a quick comment. I want to give a shout out to our fellow payroll people. So whether you're in HR and you run payroll or you're a payroll person, shout out to you guys because it is so difficult to get a vacation when you do payroll because you have to do it on and off week. You still have to have backup in case something comes up. I have had to run payroll at the beach before because it's mission critical to get these fuckers paid.

So I just shout out to them because I just know even on holidays, I mean, I have, I remember one time at Christmas having our payroll manager work on Christmas because she had to process payroll. So, you know, any leaders out there to also take a look, I always created the payroll calendar in October of the year before. And I would see when those paydates fell and what could we move.

So could we move this and pay them on Thursday instead of a Friday? But just shout out to the payroll people, because y'all keep us paid and I appreciate you. Much love. It's like accounting, accounting when we say New Year's Eve. They say month end, quarter end, year end.

Or yeah, month end. Year end close. Cheers. Yeah, quarter end, year end. It's true. I totally agree. Shout out to accounting people too. I've got a question for you all.

Not a comment, but just a quick question. Any vacations that you have upcoming that you're excited about you want to share? What's going on this summer? We're going on our annual beach trip, but we're going to a different beach. Where? Panama City. So, I am an Orange Beach, Alabama girl. I've been going there since I was a little girl. But my husband was a PCB kid. And so, and that's where he grew up going.

So we're going to give it a go. I'm actually really excited because it looks actually prettier like the water and the sand. So it's pretty. It's a shout out to Club La Vela. I think that That was the most amazing place oh it was amazingly like there was Probably a hundred different clubs in one. Oh damn, but it was like a teen club It's like, you know an SNL that Bill Hader character that would be like this club has everything it has that is Club La Vela But it would be like it it has ladies walking in swimsuits, dripping water. It has, it's like, eyes can remember being there and listen to Sandstorm, like, da-da-da-da-da-da, da-da-da-da-da-da,

like in 2001, 2001 Spring Break, BCB. We went there with our family last year, the year before, and it's great, and it is fun. I am going to Alaska this summer. Oh my gosh. Ooh. Yes. I am going to Alaska this summer. Oh my gosh. Ooh. Yes.

I'm very excited. My kids go to summer camp and so my husband and I were trying to plan a trip and think of something. And as much as I would love to say it would be a great family trip, I still have memories of when we were living in Australia and we went to the Great Ocean Road and we kept stopping and getting out and being like, oh my God, this is amazing. And the kids were like, can we sit in the car? This is so boring. And I, who went to like, you know, like a broken down station wagon to New Hampshire, you know, every year,

went to the beach like twice before I was 18. I was so pissed. Anyway, I'm now I don't I've gotten past that, but I'm a realist. So we will be going to Alaska, which I am so excited. Oh man. Are you doing Denali? No, like the mountain? Oh, well, the park, the national park. No, I don't think so. I do want to play golf while I'm there.

I thought it'd be kind of fun to play. Originally, we were going to try to play Pebble Beach. It's always been, always been my dream. But you have to stay like three nights at the hotel there. That's a little pricey. And I wanted a vacation. I don't really want a golf trip. I just wanted a little piece. So I do think we're going to play golf in Alaska, which is kind of cool. Oh, that's exciting. What about you, Lee? Your vacation goal is always... Well, I have a conference in Belgrade, Serbia. Yes, that is very cool.

Yes. And so I'm doing that and then I'm sticking around and going around Europe a little bit. So I'll be doing that like a road trip thing. I'm super excited. I've got my international driver's license. Ooh, fun. But it's got to be an automatic, I can't do stick. Can't do manuals. I don't know how to drive stick either. I learned on it.

Really good for you. My husband had a stick car for like 10 years too and I still... My ADHD, I can't. He taught me but I like if someone had a gun to my head, I'd be like, I don't know. Well I hope that doesn't happen but... It has happened to me twice already in my life. Okay. Well, that's a story for another day.

And if I had a nickel, I had a nickel for every time I've had a gun. It'd be two nickels, but it's still awfully light. Keep listening to HR Besties. We've got a couple intro stories on tap, I think. Wow. But it's no fun on a road trip because, you know, after a while you'll stay in fifth gear, but like it's, it's, you don't want to think about anything else. Just hit the automatic.

I know. That's fun. Yeah. Doing that. And then I got a wedding in San Fran, Napa Valley, Patruret party, New York City weekend. Nice. Got a couple of things going on. That's fun.

I'm going to California for filming LinkedIn Learning. Two more LinkedIn Learning courses this summer. And so I think my mom's going to come out and join me on that. Oh, nice. Do a little trippy trip. That will be nice. Where is that? San Diego?

It's near Santa Barbara. It's Carpinteria in Delta. I just learned Delta just started flying into Santa Barbara. They were flying into LA, and so I would drive from LA and I would stop at In-N-Out Burger and put on Miley Cyrus on the car and cruise my way to Santa Barbara area. But I do, I like to, you know, I get off the highway and drive through the fields a little bit, you know, love it. It's a beautiful part of the country that I like going to. Love, love. I have a quick comment just to close it out is in addition to everything with

paid time off and retaining and engaging people, also think about succession planning. Meaning, as you advance as a leader or as other people advance, sometimes it feels like, and it can be that, as a manager, part of the bigger title, the bigger paycheck is sacrificing aspects of your life, including time off. Like, it can seem and feel impossible when you become a manager, but it's just as important for everybody on the org chart to be able to actually take that time off. Absolutely important. And so, from the modeling perspective, as you think about,

okay, this development, who might want to take my job one day? And how do I want to develop? It's important that you make the realities of that job one that people actually want to apply to. Because otherwise, if you're working all the time and, you know, sending emails constantly on time off, when it comes time for you to move up and replace yourself, people are going to be like, I don't want that. I don't want that life. I don't want your life. I don't want your life.

Just to really keep the realities of that in mind, that there's so many benefits to having healthy time off, including for your own health. We're seeing that more and more. People not wanting to move into leadership positions when that was always the goal. They want peace and balance and boundaries and vacation. I mean, you know what? I thought about this earlier.

It's my comment. I forgot. Can I have one more? Do you mind? A bonus comment? Of course. So Lin-Manuel Miranda, do you all know how that relates to Time Off? No.

So he had just finished In the Heights, which was like a big, you know, broad Broadway musical, and he was finally taking like a much delayed vacation. And on this vacation, he brought a book and he opened that book. And the book was a biography of Alexander Hamilton. And it was when he was reading this book on vacation, that he was like, God bless, here we go again. But he got the idea for the musical Hamilton because he took a vacation. And so, oh my gosh, you need an example of, okay, with your teams and with your leadership and

others to show why it's important. Just know your team member when they go on vacation, they're going to have an idea for the spreadsheet you've ever seen. Shareholder value. I love it. Oh, gosh, take those vacations, besties. Happy vacation. Let's see. They got jasmine, pomegranate, geranium. Andre is the procurement manager at a big hospital, ordering everything from cleaning and office supplies

to the snacks in the break rooms. He teamed up with Grandin Toy for a sourcing plan that simplifies his operations with actionable insights. Sweet water? Oh, tangerine! Now he has time to make tough decisions, like what the hand soap should smell like. Unscented.

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