HR BESTIES - HR Besties: It's Quittin' Time!

Starting point is 00:00:00 I try to be a very empathetic leader, even as a lawyer. I try to be an empathetic lawyer and I know that seems like doesn't match up. But people sometimes will ask, when someone's leaving, someone's quitting, why can't they say goodbye? Why can't you just let someone have all their goodbyes and all those things? And sometimes I have to respond, I quit this bitch. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:00:30 And what I mean by that is there was a radio DJ, this was like, oh gosh, 20 years ago maybe, named Arnetta, and you can look it up on YouTube. Wait, I think I remember this. Arnetta the mood setter, I think. Oh, that's clever. She was on air. She was talking and she's talking.

Starting point is 00:00:51 It's very funny. I would give a language warning, but you're already listening to this podcast, but so I'll say it. Language warning. And again, we have our blanket language warning here, but she's talking. The music's kind of fading out and she's like, you know, I'm people walk around me talking about talking to my face Like oh hi, and then and I see like and then they're talking about me behind my back Like I'm tired of this and she's talking she's like and if you don't know what I'm saying, I quit this bitch

Starting point is 00:01:18 She's like to basically quit on air and I on air and I will see this in totally full disclosure this she was a DJ at the company I was later a lawyer for I love her it's on YouTube so I I was not a lawyer at the time nothing like that I was in the industry and so I know you have to consider all angles and of course like the human being in me finds these things fascinating and like very interesting to listen to. I also know sometimes, again, if you have someone that's leaving, that's like going to a competitor, people take files, it is amazing. Generally, people have taken all the files before they quit. That's when it tends to happen. But anyway,

Starting point is 00:02:00 sometimes when people are like, why can't someone say goodbye? I can have like a small understanding at times when, when people are like, I'm worried about an I quit this bitch moment. So again, I generally think you can find a very human approach and that people tend to react much more poorly when you like shut them off and pretend like they never existed and forget everything that they did for your organization. I hate that. But if you go, we'll put that on our HR besties Instagram story when this comes out so that you can see it.

Starting point is 00:02:28 I quit this bitch. Most epic resignation of all time on air. That energy. I love that. I love that for her too. How much fucking power I would have felt in that moment. That energy. If you have a good, like, quit story, share that with us. Oh, yeah. Right? Like, please, like, send that in because I love those. They're so empowering and people learn from those, you know. People want to top it, you know. TD Direct Investing offers

Starting point is 00:02:58 live support. So whether you're a newbie or a seasoned pro, you can make your investing steps count. And if you're like me and think a TFSA stands for Total Fund Savings Adventure, maybe reach out to TD Direct Investing. Oh, and that is the perfect segue to kick off this meeting. Love that hot goss. Quit this bitch. Love that hot goss, quit this bitch. Love that. Next on the agenda, we're going to move into some cringe corporate speak and Jamie's got that for us today. And then our hot topic, again, wonderful segue by Ashley is, I'm going to quit this bitch. That's basically what

Starting point is 00:03:39 the topic is. It's quitting time, you know? So how to resign effectively, do's or don'ts from our experiences and expertise as leaders and HR folk here. So if you're cotton-plating, maybe you'll learn a thing or two. And then as always, questions and comments saved for the end. Jamie, what do you got from a Cringe Corpor corporate speak perspective? It's kind of like a dual use word, but it's transparency or being transparent. And right now, this word is being very overused in my current position, not by me. And it is caught on with leadership, and they are using it entirely too much.

Starting point is 00:04:24 We're sticking it in in every meeting, every town hall. I'm like, can we please stop? Because I don't think you all are being transparent anyway. Not necessarily your business. Transparently, you're not transparent. You're opaque. Yeah. When it's overused, that's what I've seen,

Starting point is 00:04:43 is that you're actually not at all being transparent. Oh gosh, the irony of that. I do use that word. I love three syllable words. I'm a slut for them. I love the big words. Transformation, like along the same line with a transparency. And you could even say, transparent transformation or a transformation of transparency. And that just, I mean, I almost just, whew, passed out. Isn't that beautiful? Oh, I could present the fuck out of that. Like that kind of arouses me, TMI. Let me settle down. Oh, but yeah, transparency. Do you use that word, Ashley?

Starting point is 00:05:28 Yeah, I do. Part of it is I constantly I'll say, be as transparent as possible. And sometimes, like the as possible, there's a lot riding on the as possible. And sometimes people are like, well, I won't say this, because I just thought of a corporate speak word. I'll use this another time. My husband uses that one. And I'm always like, I need to won't say this because I just thought of a corporate speak word, but I'll use this another time. My husband uses that one and I'm always like, I need to write that down for corporate speak.

Starting point is 00:05:49 But sometimes people go to the extreme and they share everything with their teams. And that's also sometimes not necessary because it can be hard. As a leader, sometimes you're like, I'm going to tell everything and then people get it and they have no control over it. And there's not an explanation of what does this mean for me. Our sales were down 6.7% yesterday. This place is going down. Good luck.

Starting point is 00:06:12 Exactly. Yeah, all these things. Like, oh, the bank's calling with these things. Okay. It is having a fine line between what do I want to share because I just want to get off my chest and have someone to commiserate with? And what do people actually need to know? And so I encourage it, but I know there's so much on a case-by-case basis of what that looks like. And sometimes people choose not to share.

Starting point is 00:06:34 It's like, I can't share that. What if you did? What would happen then? So what if you did? Would that save you some time and energy and help them? It's amazing what communication is free. So there we are. Right.

Starting point is 00:06:49 Well, take comfort in the fact that you can just say you're being transparent. You don't have to be, because that's what 90% of words do. One of our values is transparency. And people are like, oh, I didn't even know our CEO left four months ago. Right.

Starting point is 00:07:03 What are our goals? What do we even do here? Right. That's a good one. I think we'll fit that in to this episode. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Try and fit it into your workday. You could do it in a fun way and then a legit way. Goes both ways. It's wonderful. That's what she said. So transitioning to our meeting hot topic of today, all things resignation, right? Empowering you as you're leaving. Some do's and don'ts, you know, just some, maybe some of our experiences with going on

Starting point is 00:07:35 the right foot, leaving on the right foot, you know, on a good note, however you want to put it. And just having a smooth exit because that is so important. Who wants to kick us off? I can. I say that because the standard to... And I say this half joking, but the standard to leave a job is like a two week notice, right?

Starting point is 00:08:02 Obviously, depending on your level of position, it may be more or some companies may require more, et cetera, et cetera. But when they fire you, they don't give you a two week notice, right? We're letting you go in two weeks. So it's really a courtesy more than anything else, the two weeks notice. And I know that that's kind of controversial.

Starting point is 00:08:21 But sometimes, and I've done it before, your mental health is more important. Given the notice they've earned. And you quit this bitch, then a notice period. And look, I don't make a habit of it, but sometimes there has been at least one time in my career where my mental health was dependent on me getting the fuck out as soon as possible. And that's what I did. And there's been other times I've gave a month or longer, you know, and it's kind of also the respect that my manager gave me and the respect that I had for the company and not wanting, you know, no hard feelings. You know, a lot of people say that people leave jobs because of management. That's not always true. I've left because there's no room for

Starting point is 00:09:08 growth for myself. Or maybe I was commuting really far and I found a remote job. I mean, there's other reasons why people leave companies. So if I respect the company, am I boss enough? I'm going to provide, not only am I going to provide a notice, I'm going to provide an ample notice. And I'm also going to make sure all my shit is together for the next person. You want me to train the next person, you want me to go ahead and start interviewing, I'm happy to do all that. Wow, above and beyond. Yeah, like I'm happy to do all that. If I feel respected and it's an amicable separation.

Starting point is 00:09:42 Yeah, a good split. But I also know that it's not going to always be like that for everyone. I think it's really important to have the nuance that's involved in it because, same, I've, I'm trying to think back. Every time I've left a job and once I've worked place multiple times, the nice thing was I always did this exit memo. Like, someone's like, oh, you're famous exit memo. Well, famous.

Starting point is 00:10:07 Exit memo. Do tell. Do tell. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Like Jerry Maguire. I was just about to say like a manifesto. You had me on hello.

Starting point is 00:10:16 No, not like an HR manifesto. Not like a manifesto. No, no, no, no, no. Like literally, especially when I was general counsel and head of HR, I made a one identifying all the key players, who you go to for what, who you'll work with for what, the history of the company, all sorts of FAQs. Here's a guide. I turned that into a guide for managers. That was like as I did manager 101. And some of these things, a lot of it was things I'd done at companies to create things that made my life a bit easier because people would say, what's this? I'm like, well, here's, again, I'm happy to answer questions, but also here's this guide, this guide. But so this, this like FAQ guide and I would like when I left a company for the second

Starting point is 00:10:57 time, I was like, now just got to edit it a little bit, update some things. But I tried to make it very comprehensive. I've had that and I would like answer questions from people. Like oftentimes I also have like referred someone like I kind of knew, especially like an illegal circle. Like, and I wouldn't say to a fault, like for me, for me, relationships have been, I've had some wonderful work relationships. I love especially doing like legal and HR.

Starting point is 00:11:20 Sometimes you feel so beat down by what you're doing. It's been wonderful for me to have those relationships. Those have continued. Like, I continue to have the text groups we've talked about. And so for me, I've taken the perspective of like, oh gosh, what are things maybe I wish I'd had? Or a colleague I've mentioned before who did amazing work of creating like guides to help us have really sustainable workloads.

Starting point is 00:11:43 She's like, we are not going to work at nights on the weekends. We're going to do that by having these resources to help people be more autonomous. And so that was really instructional for me. And so I've had really like positive ones, even like, I'll talk about this. Like when I got the biggest job of my life, this was heading North American HR for a large consulting firm. I, when I quit, I was very candid that I quit and I said, I don't like the person that I am working here and I don't like who I am to my family. I feel like I've kind of like lost friends,

Starting point is 00:12:18 but like lost contact with friends and I don't like the person I am. I don't sleep on Sunday nights. I work and I think about work always. It was a really productive conversation because honestly, the person, the executive, I was saying this to was also very kind. They're like, I can't argue with you on that. Like, I'm not going to be like, oh, do you want more money? They're like, it's not.

Starting point is 00:12:36 And she was also like, I'm sorry you feel that way. And I would never want anyone to feel that way. And for me, that was the point that I decided to leave and start my own business. That was scalable manager training. That was like five, six years ago now. It's taken time to build that up. But I was very honest in that moment.

Starting point is 00:12:54 And so I think in addition is thinking about what are you going to do? You can very easily see social media videos that'll say never give a notice anywhere. I think that's a huge miss. I think those accounts that do that give a huge disservice to people that are looking for career tips, because at times, to Jamie's point, you have to do it for mental health. But at other times, whether it's your co-workers and helping them out a bit, also for yourself, you never know who's going to be a connection somewhere else that is going to help you out. And so sometimes that bridge deserves to be burned to a crisp.

Starting point is 00:13:27 But oftentimes just saying like, okay, I'm going to get a couple more weeks, a couple more weeks. And global audiences, sometimes you have like three months garden leave, which always. Six months. Oh my God. A year. Yeah. Six months. And I would be like, how does that work out? And often it's like PILO or PILO, like pay in lieu of notice. And so it's like basically it's just like a nice reference. People in America are like, what? I love that. But I do think to the extent that you're leaving somewhere, being honest about why you're leaving

Starting point is 00:13:54 again, sometimes it's something elsewhere. But giving that feedback, it's hard. I wish people were more, I wish I felt more comfortable and felt like I could do something about it in the moment and in that role. I knew at my heart of hearts, it wasn't realistic. It wasn't going to happen. I was already doing basically two jobs, my old job and my new job, all of these things. And for me, it was important to vocalize that. But I know a lot of people don't feel comfortable. But I do think to the extent you can do that, sometimes it's on your way out and saying it in a productive way.

Starting point is 00:14:26 And I identified and I said, here are the reasons why this is my skill. I showed my calendar. I've had calls at 6 a.m. I've had calls at 1130 p.m. I've had to like beg my kids, please be quiet, please be quiet. And I said, I'm always kind of coming down on people. And I'm like, it's not it's just not sustainable. So I do think to the extent you can be honest and productive, it can help.

Starting point is 00:14:49 But you get it off your chest, but also help the people that will be in that role after you. And I think that's the thing right there. Get it off your chest, right? Because with resignations, yes, you're going to, like Jamie said, yes, if you're in a good place with the organization, you want to help them have the ability to continue and be productive and effective. You want to help the team as you leave because there's people you probably care about there.

Starting point is 00:15:17 You want to set them up for success if you're leaving on good terms and even train the people that are coming in next. But for me, a resignation is really about you, your needs, your what's next. And leaving everything with that organization is the right thing to do, meaning all the baggage, as much pain as you can, all the words left unsaid or unspoken to that point, whatever you got, leave it with that job so that you can have that really good fresh start. And a way you can do that, a very cathartic way is what Ashley just shared, is sharing

Starting point is 00:16:03 your reality, your perspective, your experience, and just letting it go. Leaving it right there with that employer so that you can turn and just be 100% committed and focused on whatever's next. That is much easier to do when you are leaving on good terms. It wasn't that it was toxic. It's just, hey, you're ready for that next right roll step, employer experience, whatever. It is so much harder to do when you had a really bad experience. It was toxic. You suffered trauma through the experience.

Starting point is 00:16:39 But to that point, I've had a lot of people ask me, do I do an exit interview? And it seems to me that this is occurring less frequently today because people, employers, leaders are probably making the assumption they know what's wrong because they're also experiencing that toxic hell hole of a workplace. They're burnt out too, you know what I mean? So that's what's so funny is I'm seeing less of these, but people will say, oh, well, I'm not going to do that. They're going to set me up in some way. They're going to use this against me in some way.

Starting point is 00:17:17 For what? Like, they don't give a shit. Like the whole point, though, call it an excellent interview or just call it a one onon-one with your HR, your colleague even, your boss, call it whatever you want, but have the conversation for you to just work through things and leave it with that employer. I've got this condition where I don't feel pain. You're a superhero. This is how intense Nova Kane sounds. Oh, wow.

Starting point is 00:17:52 Imagine how it looks. Is there more? Yeah, big time. Nova Kane, forming theaters March 14th. And that's why I really, I love exit interviews. I love the thought of them because I in HR really do read them. And then I approach leadership with the themes or, you know- You really fucked up.

Starting point is 00:18:11 Yeah. Chat GPT, how can I say this without getting fired? How can I be the messenger? One thing that I did semi recently, because I found that people weren't being truthful when I was having one-on-one conversations with them as I set up an anonymous survey. It truly is anonymous. And it gets dropped into their email with like, you know, all the information about their separation. And it truly is anonymous.

Starting point is 00:18:42 You don't have to put even your department because some of our departments are so small that I knew that only one person left in the month of December in that department. You don't even have to put that. But we asked, would you recommend, we give some key themes, a lot of open-ended questions, but I created a few very key themes. And then what I do is I monthly break that down. And I actually not only give it to our executive leadership team, but I give it to the board.

Starting point is 00:19:10 So they can see that, let's say, five people left this month. And here are their top reasons why. Because I have found that we have so much more, what's the word I'm looking for? Transparency. Exactly. Yeah, transparency. We have so much more transparency and responses when I made it anonymous and they're truthful. And I know some people probably still don't believe it is, but it really isn't.

Starting point is 00:19:38 I made sure that if you wanted to, you could put your name. You're leaving. No one gives a fuck. Or department. Or even you don't even have to put your term date. Doesn't matter because we get quite a few. So it's not like I know who's who. But I highly encourage you if you're able to and you want to, to complete an exit interview.

Starting point is 00:19:58 I know sometimes, look, I've done it where I have not. I've decided I can't do it. It's probably not in my I can't do it. Like it's not, it's probably not in my best interest to do it. But if you can, because there are HR professionals like us, that really do take that data and that information and try to use it to make a better work environment. And you're probably saying, what the fuck does that matter to me? I'm not there anymore, right? I get that. But you work best, you might be here. And we really do want to improve. And we use, we try to use that information to make it a better place to work. But again, do it for you to let it go. Leave it all on the table so you can

Starting point is 00:20:35 turn and go do you, you know? Thinking about what you'd wished someone had done for the next place you're joining. Feedback you wished other people had done that and sometimes it is as an HR leader It can be a helpful time if you're having these conversations and being like five people left this Again reminding this is where it gets hard because leaders can be just as petty as as everyone and being and reminding them Have their linkedin settings private They don't need to go look at these people's linkedin profile because I'll tell you if someone a great way to undo that trust is if Someone does it and you're like this is anonymous We you know, we want this it won't be attributed to you and also the person looks on their LinkedIn and they're like

Starting point is 00:21:12 Our board members are C suite all looked at my LinkedIn yesterday Like that's how did they know is me and that's what people people will assume And so again one is if you're in a leadership position and you're gonna be creeping on that check your LinkedIn privacy settings Yes, you can do that. I'm amazed at how many people don't know about that So again, one is if you're in a leadership position and you're going to be creeping on that, check your LinkedIn privacy settings. Yes, you can do that. I'm amazed at how many people don't know about that. I know we've talked about that because Leah's not a believer in those. But if you are, I want you to see me seeing you.

Starting point is 00:21:34 If you're in HR, just a good reminder, just a gentle reminder. And again, you'll be shocked at some of these C-suite leaders that are like, can you show me how to do that? And you may need to literally physically get on their phone and show them and you'll be like, who have they been looking at on their LinkedIn? But I think another thing is as you're getting ready is to think about the professional level. And sometimes whether you're going to a competitor

Starting point is 00:21:55 or whether things for yourself, be super mindful about the things that you can keep and that you cannot keep. Because having been a lawyer, I can tell you like what's that wedding crashers? Like, they will find you. I will find you. We've called the cops before.

Starting point is 00:22:10 Yeah. I mean, I've seen lawsuits. I have seen all of these things. And people are like, how can they tell that that's me? Like downloads and things like that. IT besties will, the IT and HR besties, sometimes that's what they come together to do. And so just be super mindful of that and not trying to take things over because also what you can create are issues for your new employer. And I've seen that situation where people ended up losing their new job because they

Starting point is 00:22:39 brought all these things over and their new employer is like, eh, no, we'll know where we will cut you off to save ourselves. And so just be very mindful that when you're leaving of what you can take with you and what you can't. You know, I know a lot of people, they get really anxious. They don't want to leave something because of course change is hard, but they're like, God, I don't want to like, how do I communicate?

Starting point is 00:23:00 How do I this that like, there's just a lot of anxiety around resigning, right? Especially if maybe it wasn't such a great experience. The thing is, is that transitioning, leaving something, all normal parts of life, that toxic boss you're trying to leave, they've left something before too, right? I mean, so if you are fearing the reaction that you will get from your manager, that's a wonderful sign it's time to go. If you don't think they'll be supportive, well, they'll do you a favor just having the employment in that day then.

Starting point is 00:23:32 They didn't deserve you anyway. Don't let that stop you from resigning. Again, to any reasonable person and professional, it's like, hey, congrats on the new job and let's start this transition plan. Let's be transparent about you leaving. Let's start communicating. Let's start getting you all prepped and ready to make that new shift here in your life. That's what you should be met with.

Starting point is 00:24:00 But again, we're used to this. I mean, if you're working in HR, you've probably had people ghost your jobs even. Kudos, Jamie, for even giving a notice on a shit job. People just not respond. You have to do a welfare check and stuff. People are leaving in all sorts of different ways. It's new to you. It's special to you because it is you. It's about to you, it's special to you, because it is you, it's about you, but it's okay. People have left before, so don't let that anxiety about change or, like, you know, stop you from doing what's right for you.

Starting point is 00:24:36 To that point, questions and comments. Does anyone have any questions and comments? I feel a little better prepared to resign and quit a bitch. I have a quick comment because it drives me absolutely wild when managers come to me and they say, hey, so-and-so resigned, what are next steps, but they haven't bothered to reach out to their employee that's resigning. So they just sent you an email. I'm sorry, what?

Starting point is 00:25:14 Everyone I've ever had at my team that has resigned under me, which, God, that was going to sound very like I'm all that, but I haven't had that many to be completely honest. Forzined under me. That have been on my team. Now I knock on wood because I just, I've been lucky, but they should feel comfortable coming to me and tell me and not just shoot me an email at six o'clock at night when you know I'm off or, you know, and as a manager, you should also have the respect of your employee to immediately pick up the phone or put time on their calendar and just be like, Oh my God, I'm so excited for you. And Ashley, I know you've done a video on this before, but expect your excitement for them.

Starting point is 00:25:54 Tell me about your new job. If you want to, obviously you don't have to, or, you know, what can I do to help you in this transition? Like it's not necessarily a bad thing and it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with you as the leader. Except for in the instance you just shared, it was that person's fault. Yeah. It was definitely her fault. I hope you told her.

Starting point is 00:26:18 I did. No, I agree. I mean, yeah, I've made a video about that. I talk about that. So like when I do manager training, my manager course, I talk about that for managers, that flip perspective of when people are, whether they're sending an email. And I agree just like to the extent as you're giving notice and you can do that in a conversation, especially if you've had, again, sometimes you're like, I got to get out of here. This is it. But

Starting point is 00:26:42 if you've had a manager that has like gone to bat with you and things, having that conversation and they'll probably know it because you're going to be like, do you have a quick second? And they're going to know exactly what you're about to do. But having that and as a manager, just knowing all the feelings that person is bringing in fear, nervousness, like are they going to are they going to write me off in knowing the rest of your team as well? I talk about these things in my manager training. One of the things I have in the live cohorts, and I think oftentimes organizations can run that,

Starting point is 00:27:08 but when I've done it, I'll say to people, when someone quits, what's your feeling? And frequently people are like, oh, they're like, not again. It's gonna look bad on me. My boss is gonna be like, you're losing people. Everybody else is gonna be like the workload. I said, 100%. And I said, and that's, you have to know that.

Starting point is 00:27:23 As a manager, your first feeling is probably not going To be excitement for that person That's where you got to put the Pepto-Bismol coat of like leadership on yourself and just know how you react to that person Sometimes it's fake it till you make it like I'm so excited for you and just knowing long-term Again, you never know when that person's gonna want to come back to your team Just like all those things and so showing that support to the rest of the team and how you have those conversations. I love talking about that, but also recognizing where people are and that you got to think about your reaction versus your response.

Starting point is 00:27:54 And that's a muscle that you build as a leader that you may not realize how important that is. Not a question, but just a quick comment for me that some of my fondest work memories were my last days. And how amazing and blessed is that for me experience-wise, right? So I've had a lot of traumatic and toxic experiences. I talk about them on my socials. But I've had so many beautiful moments too, being celebrated there at the end,

Starting point is 00:28:19 and getting gifts, and big hugs, and tears, and flowers flowers and all that fun stuff. And heartfelt messages. And that sticks with me. It's like, why did you tell me this shit while it was here? I know, I know. But those can be beautiful moments too. And again, that's kind of just the circle of corporate life. So don't shy away. But I, Lee, I like that. I think a nice call to end the episode would be if

Starting point is 00:28:51 there's someone that you're like on their last day, if they were to tell you today they're leaving, you'd be like, oh gosh I appreciated you so much and you haven't shared that while they're still working with you. Do it now. Again, not just to save, make them not quit, but just show the basic human appreciation. I bet those people it's going to be like water in the desert, that that person may need to hear those words right now more than you think. And it's going to lift them up for that next role, isn't it? It's going to put them in that head space.

Starting point is 00:29:17 Lift them up like Simba. I'm lifting my hands up. I look like a moose actually, because my hands are just in front of my face. Oh gosh, happy quitting time, people. It's time to quit this bitch. Bye, besties.

HR BESTIES - HR Besties: It's Quittin' Time!

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