HR BESTIES - HR Besties: Leigh's Dream, Corporate Investigations and Pocket Pastries

Episode Date: May 13, 2026

Welcome back to our monthly meeting, Besties!   Today's agenda:  Congratulations, Ashley! Surprise appearances from TJ and GC Spilling the tea on a J.P. Morgan investigation A quick update from SHRM and the latest from the Rocket Docket Pause, Consider, Act, plus a few words for HR professionals Your To-Do List: Grab merch, submit Questions & Comments, and make sure that you're the first to know about our In-Person Meetings (events!) at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.hrbesties.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.   Follow your Besties across the socials and check out our resumes here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.hrbesties.com/about⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.    Subscribe to the HR Besties Newsletter - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://hr-besties.beehiiv.com/subscribe⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠   We look forward to seeing you in our next meeting - don't worry, we'll have a hard stop!   Yours in Business + Bullsh*t,  Leigh, Jamie & Ashley   Follow Bestie Leigh! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@hrmanifesto⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/hrmanifesto⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.hrmanifesto.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠   Follow Bestie Ashley! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@managermethod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/managermethod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleyherd/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://managermethod.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠   Follow Bestie Jamie! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.millennialmisery.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Humorous Resources: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Threads⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Facebook⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠X⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Millennial Misery: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Threads⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Facebook⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠X⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Horrendous HR: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Threads⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Facebook⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠   Tune in to "HR Besties," a business, work and management podcast hosted by Leigh Elena Henderson (HRManifesto), Ashley Herd (ManagerMethod) and Jamie Jackson (Humorous_Resources), where we navigate the labyrinth of corporate culture, from cringe corporate speak to toxic leadership. Whether you're in Human Resources or not, corporate or small business, we offer sneak peeks into surviving work, hiring strategies, and making the employee experience better for all. Tune in for real talk on employee engagement, green flags in the workplace, and how to turn red flags into real change. Don't miss our chats about leadership, career coaching, and takes from work travel and watercooler gossip. Get new episodes every month, follow us on socials for the latest updates, and join us at our virtual happy hours to share your HR stories.

Hello, besties. It's been a hot minute, huh? Yeah, for those of you playing catch up, we are on monthlies because it is crazy over here, Ashley's book and all of the things happening and schedules and life, all that fun stuff. So if you've missed us, we've missed you too. Trust. Ashley does have a little news, though, about that book, don't you? Well, my publisher emailed me this week. And my book, hit on Kindle number one bestseller in the HR and personnel management category. And so I was very excited. That's a big deal.

Yeah, it is. Congratulations. Thank you. Yeah. So thank you also. Thank everyone for reading and sharing. And if you've read it, leave a review. So thank you.

It helps. Yes. Oh, go check out manager method, the manager method. All of that, it is on shows now. How crazy is that, right? It is. It still is surreal, although we recently, I was on a trip on spring break and we went and there's a big bookstore down at the beach. And my friend's like, do you want to go in and see if your book's there? And I was like, I don't think it'll be there. And we went around. No, it was not there. I was like, this isn't so much a beach read. It's an office read. But, you know, then I picked up, you know, picked up some random book. I just picked it up and went to the disbanded. Obviously to be there not just turn around awkwardly. When you do find it, it's exciting. You're right.

Do you happen to have this book? My book's not here. I'm not buying anything. It looks like you. It's not me. It was just sold out, Ashley. There you go. Come on.

Do you know it was all over the beach? Of course. All the books laying out, you know? Who needs yesteryear when you can have some management tips, you know? Right, when I lay it out in the sun. That's nice. I got a little treat for you, Ashley, because I had a dream a couple of night's like, oh. I've missed your dreams, Lee. Every night, they're popping. I do not have to do

illegal drugs. You can choose to, but, you know. Oh my God. Yeah, I could choose to. I know. Yeah, I mean, you know, I do legal ones, all of the drugs, but highly recommend love science. My dreams are vivid. Okay. So you'll love this. Someone, a very lovable character of ours now, Thomas J. Henry, made a reappearance. Oh, besty. Not TJ. He made a reappearance. He made a reappearance.

Yes. And for those of you who aren't in Texas or in the legal field or I don't know. I mean, this guy seems to be everywhere. Or an OG listener. Or an OG listener. I said orgy listener. Oh, my God. Or that too.

An OG listener. You know, whatever, right? I mean, no judgment. Thomas J. Henry is an attorney, like a high-powered defense attorney. Is that what you'd call him, Ashley, a defense attorney? What is he? I think he's on the plaintiff's side. I think he's a personal or injury attorney, which is why he's, you know, by far the most successful in his settlements. He doesn't get paid unless we get paid and he's getting paid. And he's taking most of it, I'm sure. God love him. So we are like at this offsite. All right. It's a work thing. And he's the boss. He's like the CEO. And, you know, I've pretty much my entire career have done, you know, HR client support, right?

I'm the, I was going to say the bitch for the head guy in charge. And that is true, but it's a little, I was going to be a little more PC about it. I was like his HR person. That's what it felt like in the dream, right? I didn't see an org chart or anything. But we're doing this event. And he and I were laughing off to the side and whatnot. Maybe it's a little flirty.

Maybe it's not. I don't know. I'm just saying it didn't go that way. unfortunately. But all of a sudden, George Costanza walks up. George Costanza walks up. Not Jason Alexander. George Costanza. So not the actor, but actually, and I love Seinfeld, okay? George Costanza walks up. And they start chatting. And for whatever reason, I reach into my pocket, because all of a sudden I had pockets. I was like in a trench coat all of a sudden, weird. I reach in and I grab a pastry out of my pocket and start eating it.

I've never done that, but it's not beneath me. I would do that. But I've just said at that point, I've done all sorts of things, but I haven't done that one. But in the middle of this thing, I just reach into my pocket and grab a pastry and I start eating it. And George Costanza was like, really, you're eating a pastry out of your pocket? And that's where the dream ended. So that guy that freaking ate an Eclare off the top of the trash.

Yes. Famous episode of Seinfeld. He's judging me for eating pastry pockets. Look, yeah, pocket pastries are delicious. Also, I posted a George Costanza meme today about... No way. Like, about, you know, the licking of the envelopes? Yeah.

Yes. Yeah, Susan. Poor Susan. I literally posted it today. What? Are you... Oh, damn, that's weird. That's crazy.

Wow. That's so funny. On millennial misery. Go look, like an hour ago. That's freaky. Because when do we talk about George Costanza? I mean, you know, we've never. Like, oh my God, are you serious?

That's so weird. I know. Oh, man. I miss your dreams. I love it. And it just pops in there. Let me see this. Would you rather have as a co-worker Thomas J. Henry or George Costanza?

George Costanza. He's going to make you look good. George Casanza. He would, like, make us love. laugh. Are you kidding? Yeah. Yeah. Thomas J. Henry is your boss because he would supply, as we know, really nice parties if you look him up. Of course. We're still waiting for our invite. I know George Cassandah, he would be a bit of an HR nightmare because he's absolutely one of those performance issues that's gone on for years, the napping under the desk. But he's a personality

higher if there ever was one. Oh my gosh, yes. Yeah. I still adore. I adore him. But I thought you'd like that. Shout out to Thomas J. Henry and George Costanza. But to judge me, though, yeah, to judge me when he ate in a Claire off the top of a trash can at a child's birthday party. Projection. Well, it's a reminder. I know it's a bit of conference season for those going to, you know, HR conferences or work conferences. I will recommend a practice. I didn't do this intentionally. I got a special bag a couple years ago, one of the first conferences we'd gone to together. I'd gotten it. to have like manager method business cards, HR besties, business cards to have these multiple pockets. But what I didn't realize is it had an extra pocket. Oh, what am I going to do with this?

Snacks. Walking around the conference, I'd have like almonds, cookie. I mean, I remember going through it and I think it was how long you've been holding on to that. I'm like, oh, ever since about seven or 17 rows ago, you know, just having that is a best practice for the conferences in addition to your large, you know, duffel bags that they'll give you. But yeah, get a good conference conference bag. Yeah. We're pro pastry pockets here. Sure. Triple P. For life. Oh, well, what is happening in the world of HR or work? There's some drama out there. Y'all need to catch me up. Jamie alerted us to one, but then we were like, you know what, don't look into it because we'll talk about it on the podcast. So I had seen it, but I don't know if you have lead. Jamie,

what about J.P. Morgan? Yeah. So there was some crazy Alexander. Alexander Alexander Jason Alexander's brain Alexations like I literally cannot get it out it's just saved my life Girl say it you got it you got it I know you have it in you No I literally can't to say it I can't I can't even remember the people's names to be honest But essentially there was a male co-worker and a female co-worker and at J.P. Morgan Chase And this woman was an executive, however, he did not report to her.

He daily mail reported some pretty wild accusations. I mean, stuff like she was drugging him with Viagra. She would come to his apartment and demand sex, that he became her sex slave. She would call him his little brown boy. I mean, stuff that, like, I read and I was like, that didn't happen. Like, even myself, I was like, no, that didn't happen. But I still read it and I saw all the memes that came out and I was like, I'm not going to do, I purposely was like, I'm not doing a video on this because I didn't feel good about it.

Like it just made me feel icky. And sure enough, not even a day later, the New York Post comes out with an article saying that J.P. Morgan Chase did a full internal investigation. And there was completely unfounded. Also, allegedly. And they did a full investigation and they checked computers. They checked messages, emails, door records, like badge records. They checked everything they could internally. One thing that he had accused her of was that she said that she would take away his bonus. But he didn't directly report to her. They were actually on the same team.

But there was no way that she could have affected his bonus. in any way whatsoever. So essentially, it's alleged that he possibly fabricated all this because he wanted a large settlement, close to the millions of dollars when he was let go. So I actually did a TikTok on this when I read it. And what was the most disappointing in me as the amount of men that commented not only on my TikTok, but on my Instagram, first of all, siding with the man, because of course, And they were like, I can't believe you would believe a corporate HR department. Well, of course I would. I've been in HR for 23 years.

Yes, I would. But also, I believe women. So there's that over a man who was trying to get millions of dollars. And then someone else sent me another article that he lied about his father dying to get bereavement. That's. Yeah, that old song and dance. Wow. That was, I spoke yesterday at a conference.

And I was talking about this with the J.P. Morgan of how you know, you have investigations. And that's why it's important to figure out who's going to investigate, look into things. But that one of the things that came out of it, again, the back and forth allegations you do see. But when I saw, we, he took bereavement leave, five days paid leave. So, I mean, kudos, silver lining. Kudos for having a good, generous bereavement policy. And please don't take it away based on the exception of those who abuse it. But the New York Post said, ironically, we did talk to his father over the weekend, who.

With a Ouija, born. Oh, wow. We talked to them in heaven. I struggle with it. But even you hear things and people like, okay, believe women. But if anybody's listening to the love trapped podcast, it's like the number one podcast right now, which is about Laura Owens and Clayton. It makes things. There's a reason that you investigate.

And again, these exceptions of people making things up, they do happen. Unfortunately, in my personal experience, they are absolutely the. minority. And so it's important to go through. I mean, when I actually, when I first saw the allegations, I don't know that I thought that they were wrong. When he first came out with them, I thought, you know what, boy, some crazy stuff can happen in investment banks, law firms, consulting firms, I mean, all of that. But then when it flipped and came out, well, yeah. Again, like, when organizations do investigations like that, it's kind of hard because sometimes they'll bring in like an external law firm and you're like, are you really trying to find the truth or

Are you really trying to shut it down? Or are you trying to cover it up? Yeah. Yeah. And it's hard because what I found in HR is people like, we're trying to get to the heart of the matter. And that's what does make it so infuriating when you see apparently fabricated allegations. But they pay out. I saw that same thing that they had offered him allegedly a million dollars to settle.

And he was like, no, no, I want $11 million. And, you know, I guess they're obviously at an impasse, but it's a mess. What an idiot. Yeah. It's wild. Oh, he should have just taken. that and walk then? Because like, did he, like, create evidence? I mean, what was he, what was he thinking? Like, there was an evidence that he could even create? Well, did you hear what he did with

AI? No. He went and I don't know if he used his real name, but there's like an AI platform that is, I guess, as part of their website to show examples of how you can use it. There's someone that people, like, it's him in, like a few months ago had asked a prompt of like, what do I do if I do if I won't use the words on the podcast, but very triggering words of things happen, inappropriate, things happen to me at work. And it was very similar to the allegations he came out with, but he used the he pronoun. Like, what if he did this to me? And so people are like, wait, was he trying to build his story with that? But again, as we say, AI is not a diary nor an encyclopedia. And people will, people find that stuff. Oh, heavens.

So, like, if I'm that female executive, is this not criminal? Well, she could sue for defamation, right? I'm not a lawyer. I don't know. I mean, what could she do? What could she do? Because as an organization, I know when we've had issues like that, it's like you have to call the police yourself. You have to deal. You have to, you know what I mean? Like we as an organization or, you know, company legal entity, we're not going to press charges. But you are welcome to and we will allow the police to come in and here. You know what I mean? Like they get so, you know, nitpicky. So what could she do? Well, so one thing is, if you put this, in a legal document, like a complaint, in the U.S., at least, that is protected from defamation.

So he can allege these things in a court document. And so back and forth in those documents, that's generally protected from defamations. And also, so defamation is, it has to be untrue. So like if I were, if someone were to be like, no, I don't get a personal example, trying to think of something in the moment. Something mean. I know. Like you're ugly, Lee.

It has to be untrue. And so if it's an objective fact, if it's someone's opinion, then that doesn't tend to rise the level of defamation. And it has to be, again, you have, and it's, and there's some different standards if it's a, like a celebrity, a known figure or if it's a more, you know, ordinary citizen, which this executive would probably fall under that. And so if he was going around telling people things and like putting this out places, then that could potentially be.

But in a lawsuit in particular, that's something people don't always realize. unbelievable as it is, that is generally protected in the U.S. And so, yes, but things have to be untrue. And then there's slander and libel, which are aspects of defamation. One is written. One is spoken. And that's the end of my law school lesson. Because Cash Patel is suing the Atlantic reporter for defamation right now for true statements.

He's suing her because of allegations of being alcoholic. And so it's like in that situation, it's not a court document. It would be whether she publicized that. And so that would fall out of the death. defamation exception. Oh, okay. So if I was J.P. Morgan, and sometimes I wish I was, like, how would I handle this now when it comes to the executive, right? I mean, am I trying to pay her in some way? Do I want an NDA? I mean, I don't know. You know what I'm saying? Like, how do we protect ourselves as an organization now? Like, what can she do? I mean, that's one of

the areas that get tricky, because there's, I mean, there's the legal aspect. But One of it is backing up from the lawyer perspective is if you have an executive and someone has apparently falsely accused someone of very specific things and now it's all over the news, an NDA isn't really going to do anything or her natural inclination is going to say, wait, why do I need to sign an NDA? All of these allegations were about me. And again, one of the things that can happen in an investigation if it gets tricky is, let's say in the investigation they say like, oh yeah, much of this was fabricated.

but other things of whether she said I'm going to affect his bonus or anything like that. Well, what if that's problematic? And that's where it gets really hard and you have to make judgment calls. But when you have a situation where, again, someone is really apparently falsely accused or you've come to that conclusion, supporting them in the best ways you can and letting them say their peace and working with them to say whether you want to say something or not, that is your choice, giving them that power and supporting them. To me, even as a lawyer, you're not going to win this by trying to clamp it down and have NDAs and, oh, should we get her out of here?

Because that does happen as well. You know, could be she doesn't want to work there anymore. This whole situation is so wild to say the least. But it's one of those tricky situations. But so often I do think organizations will overlawyer it and things like that. Like have them sign an NDA. Like, why don't we ever sign a separation agreement without thinking of the real human of feelings that can happen even if you are a very highly paid exec at a very well-known company.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. God, is that not HR nightmare fuel? Like having one of your investigations blow up globally? Like, oh, my God. I know. I feel awful for her. And her face was plastered all over the internet.

I mean, the countless memes, the disgusting things that men were saying, like, I wish she was my boss. there was like, I guess, a junior analyst position posted in that same department and 24,000 men applied for that job. It's just like, it's so gross. So fucking interesting, honestly. No, investigations are no, there really can be no fun, especially when you're trying to balance it. But I bet you, whoever that was investigating it that found these things that proved it wrong, you've never seen someone circle those wagons quicker than like, well, let me show you this. Oh, my gosh. So more to come on that, I'm sure. More to come. Well, it reminds me a bit. And we've talked about, like, at some of these

Cherm lawsuit updates where, again, the verdict from last year that $11.5 million, Scherm has officially filed its appeal since we had our last episode. So it's being peeled to the Tenth Circuit Court of Appeals. And so that means documents will go back and forth. the judge's opinion was pretty savage. That being said, you'd kind of expect it because before they filed their appeal to the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals when Sharm had to say, like, hey, judge, you were wrong, we should have won and all these things. Again, it was whenever you're suggesting to a judge that they made the wrong decision, it doesn't tend to, they don't tend to agree. So I'll give them a bit of a pass on that. But so now they've appealed.

And so a lot of it sounds like legal technicalities, like very fascinating things like jury instructions. But another case that came about, I mentioned this is like service dog lawsuit. And it's in the Rocket Docket, Lee's old boyfriend's name, Rocket Docket. Yeah, date school. In the district of Virginia. I mean, that one really is cruising along. And so Discovery was supposed to be up on that in June, so pretty soon. And so I had just glanced at the docket as my, you know, periodic copy and was surprised

to see all these like filings in there. And I saw that the plaintiff I filed what's called a motion to compel. Now, those have ever been involved in litigation. I know this, but that's in the discovery process back and forth. If I'm like, you know, Jamie and Lee are Sue and me and we exchange things back and forth, if I'm not giving all the answers that you want or back and forth, you can, you try to figure it out, but sometimes you go to the judge and you're like, hey, mom or dad, we're fighting. Let's, let's come up with this resolution. And in one of the things that happens with now is with email search terms, again, very exciting. But it's like,

like for Shurm, for example, because this candidate, who had her job off or rescinded after she'd requested a service dog. She's saying that this is discrimination. And so trying to figure out emails and things to go through, her lawyers have said, well, Sherm's not using enough search terms. Like they wouldn't search just for Fiona, they're saying, for example, like should we do that? Should we not? Because it's a bit more of an unusual name.

And Sherm's like, okay, but Torres is more common. Like, okay, back and forth. And it's literally these conversations. And I only know about it, anybody can because it's on the pacer docket. And so the plaintiff filed this motion, spelling out, all these things they want Shirm to do. And Shirm responded, and I was looking through, because I was like, oh, it's a very long filing for a response. One of the things they have in there is they have a little footnote that's like, okay, right, the plaintiff's asking us for things. But the plaintiff also hasn't provided things we want her to provide, including voice memos, like she's sent giving us text messages and things like that, but not these underlying voice memos, see Exhibit, like I think it was six.

Okay. So I go, I'm like, let me say Exhibit six. Oh my gosh. I've never seen anything like this in a lawsuit. Truly haven't, having done employment law, but it was, they filed like 35, 36 or more pages of screenshots of the plaintiff's personal text messages with different people as she was going through the interview process. As she was waiting on her thing to be, whether rescinded or not. And it is because in the reason they, that they're entitled to things like that is because the plaintiff is saying like damages, like emotional damages and compensatory damages. Like this really affected me. And so that's some of the

reason that they could get her personal text messages. But it's wild. I mean, I kind of laughed. Well, you know, yes, it definitely feels invasive, especially for the other people they don't realize like, gosh, this could be in court one day. But it really goes into this aspect of like, what do damages look like? And it's interesting because, again, I could have seen like, sure I'm saying, like, yeah, we're waiting on things for plaintiff and having a couple screenshots. But it was so many. But some of them, I was like, these people's name on the text message was not Jamie Jackson. But it's like, Jay. total Jamie energy.

Like when they were figuring out whether to send her offer, I guess, she's like waiting on them. And she's like, you know, like this is how they're treating me now. I can't even imagine being an employee. Also, she was messaging with someone about the dress policy. She's like, you know, whatever, wearing jeans to the office, you know, just like one day a week or whatever. And she's like, yeah, like, oh, like ridiculous.

Like making me commute to Egypt from whatever. It is kind of like funny on those hands. But also some of it. I'm just surprised because I actually, in front of a jury, I'd be very interested to see how this would play out because some of them show her mindset of like the Jamie-esque messages were like, beep, Sherm and like very riding along with you. But anyway, it remains to be seen what will happen with it. They had the hearing before the judge and judging from the document. The judge told them to go outside and figure it out and then come back and have any remaining questions. And ultimately, they're like, sure, needs to search a few more search terms, I guess, is the resolution.

They didn't say which ones. But it's, judges do not like discovery disputes and things like that. So if you're in HR, just know your legal fees will go up substantially if you have those kind of fights and fights about discovery things. That's just so petty. You know, you think they'd have better things to do or spend their money on or, you know what I mean? All of it together. I mean, litigation is, again, like, when, as you think about things like investigations or you think about how you treat people. And I know HR sometimes is told, we need to make a change, get rid of this

person. There are such real examples about treating people, whether it's performance or accommodations or anything like that, that the human aspect really matters, really matters a lot. But if you don't do it or you do it in a way that feels really unfair, that process of litigation is just miserable. I couldn't do it. I can see why you transitioned. Ashley. It was not. It was, I mean, now I do feel like I have this wholesale perspective on it, because now I look at these things. And I'm like, I can see it. But one of the things I see is, is lawyers, and on both sides, it's like a, like, almost demonizing the other. Like, I know employer side employment lawyers that they view plaintiffs as like the enemies. I've heard people

literally just literally describe it as, you know, people that are just out to make. make a buck and just, it is like you are just going, you forget that the person on the other side is a human, whether you agree with them or not. And again, there are going to be times people bring claims that are not true, but you forget that side, but you like demonize them. And on the flip, like the lawyers on both sides, sometimes it's just so nasty and you go back and forth. And I I didn't like that. And so I like now to use those lessons in my manager, a training business and book. It's a much, much better to be on the preventative side for me. It's a lot. I know. Speaking of transferable lessons, that's what I was thinking. Jamie, how's your job speaking of?

No, for real. So I was telling these ladies before we hopped on, I am officially the PTO president for the next school year, which is the 2026-27 school year. However, the current PTO president is on maternity leave, so I've already assumed the duties. But I was telling the ladies, this is teacher appreciation week. and I have been busting my ass. And I was just saying, like, what a thankless job this is. And it's so similar. The line is so similar to being in HR because I have no budget. I'm trying to take care of all these teachers. Like, I was trying to take care of my employees. I, you know, once again, I have zero budget.

And you want to do food because it's easy, but I don't want to do food because it's, because food is, like, Not everyone wants food and people have allergies and like you want to be inclusive. And honestly, it's exhausting. Like, it truly is exhausting. And like the line makes sense of why I'm here today. And I girl bust a little too close to the sun. And so this is why I'm here now. And I will be happy to give it back, though, when she's ready to come back.

Because this was, this was a I'm helping her out thing. but I will be done. But then you won for next year though, right? Yeah, I'll be it next year, but then I will be giving her her crown back. I will not be doing it again. I will be happy to help in any way I can. And these women are, I know some ladies, I got some weird comments actually on Instagram. They're like, I don't know, PTO, we're always bitchy ladies.

And I'm like, God, I'm sorry all your ladies were bitchy. I've, like, these, these women that I've been working with have actually been very nice and welcoming. But, you know, these people are doing this for free. They're donating their time, their energy. And it's, it's been a wonderful experience. I get to see my child during the day, which I've never, you know, been able to do working. So I've enjoyed it. And but I will be ready to give up this. I like how Lee said you won it, won the title. That's, I did win the, title, unfortunately. It does sound like a bit like HR though. Like, oh, everybody I know is, is, you know, not very nice. That's what people say about HR sometimes as we know. Yeah. And I'm sure that you did a ton for teacher appreciation week and still someone complained about something. You know what I mean?

Like typical HR. They didn't like the flavor or something or why can't there be this or that or I mean, you know, I'm allergic to this or I mean, all the things, you know. The road to hell is. paved with good intentions. That's it right there. It is so, so true. So I have a wrap up question for you all. This week, as I'm recording this, I spoke to a local Sherm chapter and talked about this, that these are organizations that are made up of volunteers that have full-time HR jobs and are doing this to provide resources and just some of the best organizations. Shout out to the Great River chapter. Jamie was out at Virginia Beach a couple weeks ago and just awesome, awesome people looking for resources. And so any one question that someone brought up to me, they're like, ah, this

resonated with your talk about trying to be the cleanup person. Like you join an organization and people just expect, oh, you're going to fix this. So any just wanted a quick words from anyone if you have tips for those in HR that are either brought into an organization or just doing your job. And people are like, can you fix this as HR and being the cleanup person? Yeah, I mean, I used to take on a lot more earlier in my career, as we all do because we have to learn in all of this, you know. And then at some point, I had the epiphany that this is really a team sport. And we are all accountable. We're accountable to the culture.

We're accountable to our employees. We are all accountable. Because even if I were to just, you know, flip a switch or change something in a system or whatnot, we are all still accountable to shifting our behaviors and our language and our processes and adhering or whatever the case may be, right? I mean, so this notion that HR is just the cleanup crew or the junk drawer for bullshit, I think that we need to take the onus of, you know, upon ourselves as HR professionals to ensure we are always treated as professionals and part of the team. No one gets to toss turds over my fence anymore. It's been years since I allowed that shit. I push right on back.

I don't care who you are. I mean, I've had some really candid hard conversations with CEO-level folks that, you know, that, you know, respectfully, you know, that's not one of my priorities. I have, you know, I can support. I can coach. I can help. I can, you know, be part of the team. But that's not on me to fix that shit just because I'm good at doing stuff. You know what I mean? We need to hold whoever owns it accountable so they can learn and develop or fail and learn that way, right?

I mean, whatever the case may be, but it can all come, it can all come to us. So I think, you know, stopping the people pleasing and just remembering the badass professionals that we are, like putting that first is very important. I think what I was going to say, I think I might have interpreted your question a little differently. But like when I'm in a new role, one thing I'm doing differently now that I did earlier in my career is I'm actually taking like the first couple, six months maybe to more observe and not being so quick to like, well, I'm going to change everything and I'm going to fix everything. Because a lot of times there is a method to the madness that the previous person had put in place. And even though it doesn't necessarily make sense to me right at the beginning, it might in a few months. And I'm like, oh, I see why they were doing it this way. And I get it now.

And maybe we can improve on it. But there's a reason they set it up that way. And I'll be honest, that happened to me earlier in my career. I have stormed in. I got my new title and I was promoted and I was a director. And I walked in and I changed all the things. And then I realized I've actually fucked up. because I thought that I

you know that's what I had to do and so I realized that later in the career that if I just observe there's still things yes of course there's always things to improve and to make better but if I could just observe first and really take an inventory

and like you said too Lee is this is a team sport and the team isn't just HR it's ops it's you know it's everyone it's accounting And you do have to push back and you can't just be a people pleaser and take everything on yourself and clean up the mess. Well, I have this pause, consider act framework that's in my book and in my, you know, trainings and things.

The way I bring it to life is is thinking about the person on the other side of that and what's driving them, the pressures that they're probably having, that they may not articulate to you or you may not realize how much they affect that, them personally. But also providing context. Because whether it's sending a meeting invite, not having an answer, someone's going to think or not having a reason for it, the recipient, if they're your employee, they're going to think they're getting fired. Like people in any situation fill, fill emptiness or lack of knowledge with the worst case scenario. Sometimes that's about themselves and sometimes it's about you. And so same. If you come in and start doing things, even if you've been told, oh, you're in HR, your job is to fix things, you come in hot. People are going to dislike you. And that is going to affect the results that

you have. And so providing context, whether it's to the CEO that says, you know, go fix everything. This is your world. Okay, fair enough. But if I come in and I'm giving everybody, telling everybody what to do, I'm going to lose people like that. So I do want to take the opportunity to listen and get their perspective and then see what I have to shape and move with speed of that. So provide that reassurance. As you're talking to other people saying, I'd love to know what you wish more people, including people in HR, knew about your role. Because I may have ideas, but that's what my job is. Providing context as much as possible and giving an explanation to fill in those gaps can make your own life so much, so much easier. That pause, consider act people, the manager method out on shelves,

get it now. Love it. Lee's book for pre-sale, right Lee? Yeah, the book, it's called Workable. And it is, yeah, it is up on pre-sale, but just like under the radar. Like, it's being built out. You know what I'm saying? Like the cover is not up there yet. Like, you know, it all announced it when it's like already, but crazy, January 27. It's all exciting. Meanwhile, Jamie's going around meeting with her new

constituents and her PTO. We're all going interviewing everybody, students in the carpool line. If you see President Jackson coming through, she's a woman of the people. She's leading you. Shaking hands, kissing babies. Oh, because no one knows, no one knows

what I do outside of the PTO. It's pretty awesome. Well, this is your new, this is your new identity. I'm looking forward to your new Instagram account dedicated to PTOing. Literally. That would be fun. Bye, besties. George Costanza, we trust.

Exactly. Love you. Bye besties.