HR BESTIES - HR Besties: Managing Up

Starting point is 00:00:00 So, in my entire 20-year career, I have only been mad at work four times. I can count them. They're in my memes. I can see those exact moments because I'm actually a pretty chill person for the most part. You're like, yeah, I guess. But I'm pretty laid back and in the workplace, super professional. I like to have a good time, but I don't get very upset.

Starting point is 00:00:33 That's why I'm probably good at this job. I'm like, okay, let's tackle this issue. I don't go crazy like my hair's on fire or anything, but there's been four times. I've shared a couple of those with you all already. Like that one bus thrower under her. That engineering leader who hid his stepchild under his desk for the workday because he didn't have childcare. And then I ran after him in the parking lot, like screaming. I lost my cool because children and safety and all of that. But there's two other times I haven't shared with you all where I got really mad. I'm talking angry at work. For some people, that's their identity and that's their brand at work, right? Not me, but it was an ops leader.

Starting point is 00:01:16 I was dealing with a, strategically partnering with, I say dealing, but strategically partnering with, I say dealing, but strategically partnering with an operations leader. And I was the HR leader for that organization and that business and that site. And it was an acquisition into a huge Fortune 10 organization. And I'm sitting in my office one day and another coworker, colleague of mine comes in and they're like, hey, who should I go to while make up a name? Mark is out. And I was like, Mark's out? What do you mean? Is Mark okay? Like Mark's on vacation? Like, what do you mean? Who do you go to while Mark's out, right? And he's like, yeah, well, I mean, Mark is suspended. So who do I go to? I was like, Mark, the salaried director has been suspended? What are you talking about?

Starting point is 00:02:09 Like suspended, like who, what, where? Like hanging from something suspended? Because salaried employees, I've never suspended one without pay, right, personally in any organization. So, and if we were to, it would surely come through me, right? I mean, you know, I would hear about it from my HR team, at least, at a minimum. Holy shit, did you hear what Mark did? Well, I think we should do this, right? What do you think, right? I mean, you'd have a conversation. I was like, he suspended, what? And so, I like ran out of my office, go to the office next to mine, and that's where the ops leader's

Starting point is 00:02:47 office is. And I'm like, hey, oh my gosh, Mark, what happened? And he's like, oh yeah, I didn't like his attitude. So I told him to get the fuck out of here. And he's suspended without pay until we can turn this shit around. Whoa, wait, I mean, I was just totally blindsided, obviously, and that's what pissed me off, you know, and likes to be blindsided, especially by someone who doesn't know anything trying to do their job for them. Like that's my job,

Starting point is 00:03:18 right? So that's my job. That's HR's job, at least to be in the conversation and to do it. That's my job. That's HR's job, at least to be in the conversation and to do it. Make that process happen if we're going to do that." I was like, we aren't in the practice of randomly suspending salaried employees because you think they have an attitude problem. This is the first I've even heard of Mark's attitude problem. What the hell is going on? He just started ranting and he was a very angry person and he was

Starting point is 00:03:46 like, Mark did this and that. I mean, he was like really blowing up, right? As he's talking about Mark and it was making me more upset. I looked at him and I said, I do not appreciate you moving forward on something that is the wrong way forward without consulting me as your partner. Hello, I'm literally right next door. I've been in all week. I was in all morning. You could have easily run it past me. Right?

Starting point is 00:04:15 Like what? This is your professional brand too. And he, I mean, he was just going off. Da da da da da. I got so angry that I was about to say something I regret. And I've reached this point, the times I've gotten mad at work, I stood up like all crazy. We were sitting at his conference table. I stood up and just like glared at him and was like, I am going to leave this office before I say something that I regret.

Starting point is 00:04:48 I love it. I did that HR eyes glare. How dare you? I turned around and walked out of there. Scared the shit out of them. My advice is that staying calm is way more scarier. It really is. Throwing a look in there, but staying calm, talking slower is freaking terrifying. It really is. I've always gotten more progress when I have that approach. I was so mad that I had to leave the room. I mean, wow, what

Starting point is 00:05:29 a jerk. And of course, I'm like, let me calm down. Let me do a walkabout or whatever. Then I had to get on the phone, Mark, our bad, get the fuck to work. I mean, because it is our bad. And so you talk back to that big bully bitch boss of yours, and then he suspends you without pay. We didn't even have a way to do that in the fucking system. That's what I was telling the ops leader. I cannot not pay a salaried person in this new payroll. You know what I mean?

Starting point is 00:05:58 Because this was back in the day. I can't do that. What do we... What are you thinking? What are you doing? Besides the fact it's wrong, I can't fucking do that. Anyways. So I just wanted to share and release that to the world, that time where that guy really

Starting point is 00:06:15 fucked up and then I let him know about it and then he got me so mad I had to walk out. Yeah. You are a better woman than me because I probably would have flown off the handle. Oh gosh. But like, are you fucking stupid? He is stupid. But you know what I'd say is if he's an ops leader, assuming that he at times works with others maybe in field or warehouse environments or things like that, good for him for getting

Starting point is 00:06:39 maybe a touch. That happens at times with hourly or, you know, unexempt employees where they get told in the moment, like, leave without pay, because also in the payroll system, it's a lot easier to shut people on and off, obviously, from an hourly pay, other than salary. Salary in the US has all these things about whether you can do that or not. Like, oh, all of a sudden you're paying a lawyer more than that hourly rate. Like, what can I do? These are the things I used to do as a law firm lawyer. But,

Starting point is 00:07:08 good for him for getting a glimpse into what that's like. And again, sometimes that is totally warranted. Like, get out and figure out the pay later, but get out of here. But it is the decisions that people just make on a whim. With a director? I mean, with anybody, really. I would love for you need to consult with us. Like, does it even warrant the threshold? We're setting precedent here. I mean, can you even do it? Should you do it? Just because you can doesn't mean that you should. Thank you. What an asshole. Has anyone promised themselves they would travel more this year? Yeah, so have I. Well, I have the next promise you need to make, learning a new language with Babbel.

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Starting point is 00:09:08 Get up to 60% off at babbel.com slash HR Besties, spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash HR Besties. Babbel.com slash HR Besties. Rules and restrictions may apply. Hey, it's DJ First Dibs. hrbesties.org. And remember, sunwing. Save more. And remember, sunwing. Save more. And remember, sunwing. Save more. And remember, sunwing. Save more.

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Starting point is 00:09:45 suggests book before March 30th. Remember, Sunwing. Save more. Do more. Book with your local travel advisor or at sunwing.ca. But anyway, there's some hot goss from the past there. Hopefully you learned something from that bullshit. But welcome to the meeting besties. Quick rundown of the agenda, shall we? We will move into our Cringe Corporate speak next and Ashley, Ashley has that for us today. And then we will pivot over to our meeting hot topic and that is all about managing up. So how do we effectively do it? How do we boss our boss? Right? How do we do that? So we're gonna share some inside experiences and wisdom with you all and then as always

Starting point is 00:10:35 questions and comments saved for the end. Ashley, you got something cringe for us today? I do and it's and it's didn't know the intro story, but it works. That cringe speak is fight for it. And the way that you might hear this is if you ask for something like you ask for, let's say, like a long overdue raise or maybe even something that's like promised in your in your offer letter or agreement. And the boss says, I mean, I don't know, we'll fight for it. Have you all ever heard this?

Starting point is 00:11:05 Oh, absolutely. From people that ain't going to fight for shit. Yeah. Well, we got to fight for it. I feel like I've probably even said it myself. Is that part of your cringe warning? Probably. Yeah, but I feel like I've used it in the sense like, you've come to me and asked this and I'll be like, it's not an option now but I will fight for it.

Starting point is 00:11:27 Oh, no. Like that type. And often people will say it, like when you hear it, it tends to come from someone that does care about you and wants to make it happen. It sends a signal that's probably a realistic one, that it's going to be hard to get past. The trouble I have with it is, why do things have to feel like such a fight or be such a fight at work? Especially when it's things like rewarding someone like there is no bonus that feels less celebratory than when it's dragged out

Starting point is 00:11:53 And fought for I mean like not paid on time the fight for it like what what I don't want to be rocky I want to be right head padded or just like thumbs up. It feels... I know. Yeah. So what I've literally done in internal meetings and I've had with organizations when I've done trainees, as I say, when have you said that as a manager? And generally people will say like, I'm advocating for my team, but I'll say, why has it got to be such a fight? And it's helpful, especially when you have managers and their bosses in the room. And it brings out a lot of never had but much needed conversations.

Starting point is 00:12:26 And then people can get a glimpse into things like budgeting. But also that's where I think HR can use its voice to be the advocate for reason, if not just the employees, but to say, why should these things that reward people feel like a fight? So that's why I find it very cringy. Because then if like you're trying to fight for something, air quotes, that's positive, right? It totally diminishes the value and worth to the person you're quote, fighting for, my opinion, at least in the workplace setting, right? Like why can't you say, I'm going to

Starting point is 00:12:56 advocate for you? You know what I mean? Which I hear a lot too, but yeah, like all of our cringe speak is so violent. It's either sports or it's violent. Yeah, it's all caveman. Yeah, exactly. I'd rather run from a dinosaur than have to ask my boss for a raise. Like, I don't know. I guess we didn't run from dinosaurs. That's true.

Starting point is 00:13:18 Sorry for my... That was back in the day. Mastodon or... Exactly. Exactly. Anyway, don't make it feel like such a fight. I'm sorry for my... That was back in the day. It was like mastodon or... Exactly, exactly. Anyway, don't make it feel like such a fight. Make it feel like a reward.

Starting point is 00:13:29 So you will see this question in our weekly newsletter for your team discussion guide. If you don't get it, what's that? Check out our Instagram story and our show notes and you can sign up for it and get ways to bring it into the workplace in very safe for work ways. Yes. And we've gotten a lot of feedback, right, from besties. They use the newsletter, the discussion guide, they listen to the podcasts. It's almost like a book club for business teams out there, which I think is pretty incredible.

Starting point is 00:13:59 And shout out to Ashley, who is the... Newsletter extraordinaire. Yeah. Like Queen, I don't know what, she does an amazing job every week. Ashley, who is the newsletter extraordinaire. Yeah, like queen. I don't know what she does an amazing job every week. Thank you. Someone asked if we had all of our discussion guide questions and could put them together, had them all together that we could send.

Starting point is 00:14:13 It's like, no, I don't have that. But anyway, I love a good revenue stream. So here we go. Create a book. Exactly, I was going to say. But I'll create it over this weekend. And it's $99. Or get it for free. Just root through the things. But we'll make it easy on you. As

Starting point is 00:14:32 Lee taught me, there's a price for everything. That is true. Especially feet. I learned that. So I'll sell picks for 500 bucks. Just putting that out there randomly in search of Fin sub, you know, just to put that out there and try and manifest it. All right, shall we pivot before this takes a little turn to the hot topic of today is all about managing up. How do we boss our boss? Is it important?

Starting point is 00:14:58 Should we do it? What the hell is managing up? Thoughts, ladies, jump in. I think if you can. Oh, you always can. Because I've definitely had some managers that were not open to feedback or assistance or enlightenment. Enlightenment. Existential change.

Starting point is 00:15:22 Yeah. I've definitely had some leaders that I could not approach, but I've also had good leaders that were open to feedback and managing up. And those usually were the people that I had incredible relations with even after I left or they left. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of common threads in that. Like, you can... A lot of people have that gut feeling.

Starting point is 00:15:46 It can be very unpleasant when you find out at the outset that they're not receptive to that. That's not a fun lesson. But I do think, like a lot of management tips I think you can find from real life, well, maybe not real life, like Hollywood. I think I was a senior in college when my big fat Greek wedding came out. And you know how she's like, you teach the man, like the woman, I'm going to botch it.

Starting point is 00:16:06 The woman is the neck and she turns the man's head because she's talking about her husband and all the things. I do think a very strong skill, whether you're an employee or whether you're a manager, whatever level you are in the organization, is learning how to influence other people. And sometimes it's literally thinking about them and what do they care about.

Starting point is 00:16:26 And the more people go up, it is things like ego, money, PR, reputation. And so to the extent, I think Jamie a while ago had given an example of like raising an idea and being like, remember this to my boss, like you brought this up. And they're like, I did? That's a great idea.

Starting point is 00:16:43 Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, we won't necessarily advocate lying. Manipulation. A form of influence. But I think a tip I've given frequently, because a lot of times I would have people come to me and say, I'm asking for raises for my team. How's that going to get approved? Like, well, shake me like an eight ball. You could fight for it. team. How's that going to get approved? Like, well, shake me like an eight ball. You could fight for it.

Starting point is 00:17:26 Here we go. You can fight for it. Like, well, you can fight for it. But I say, you know, in leadership, you got to be realistic. And that is one level that like you kind of like a skin that tends to grow as you advance up the organizational ladder. And sometimes it's really hard and it's disappointing. But to realize it would feel great to be able to give everybody a raise. But sometimes you have to think about, okay, this is our pool of money. These are the people that really deserve it. These are the people that need to have conversations because they aren't doing what they need to do. But I would tell people frequently when you're asking for a raise, for example, for your team, tell your boss, say, you know, I had this idea of everyone I wanted to ask for raises for, I put it through a sieve and thought to myself, okay, I've got to be a steward of our budget and really think about who's earned it, what's going to have the impact. Talk about all of these things to show everything you did to that point, because then they see

Starting point is 00:17:54 you're putting in the effort and you're thinking about them. And just having that recognition of an actual thought process can be so helpful. And I've frequently had people come back to be like, oh my gosh, that really worked. Great, again, there's no guarantees when you work with people, but that's an area that I've found can be helpful in the aspect of managing it. What are you doing to manage your hair?

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Starting point is 00:18:47 I love influencing leaders. That is a superpower of mine because I'm a listener. I'm a really good listener. And so, to your previous point, Ashley, I can very easily pick up on and observe and listen and figure out what means the most to my manager. I also know, like so many of us do, that that relationship with the manager is the most critical relationship in your workplace. That one matters the most because your manager has so much control over your future and fate in that organization. And so I know so many of us, I've been there, shy away from creating that relationship with your leader or manager because it's scary.

Starting point is 00:19:38 Perhaps you haven't hit it off. Perhaps you inherited an asshole for a leader. Who knows, right? But that's where you really have to lean in. And a way to empower yourself into leaning into a relationship that you're kind of ick about is the power of managing up. Like put that armor on, to use another violent term in the office. Look at that as a weapon that you can use to help you be successful. It's that managing up piece. How

Starting point is 00:20:08 can you manage that relationship with your leader? How can you manage that leader to help you be successful in your job? Right? And so, a great example of this for my past is I am someone who cannot be micromanaged. Sorry, you will fail if you're a micromanager trying to lead me. I don't want someone breathing down my fucking neck. I'm very autonomous. I work a certain way, whatever. But I had a micromanager once. right? And it's like, I'm going to have to make this work because bitch needs to eat. I need shelter. Yes, I can get my exit strategy, go find a new job, but I need to make this work now. I inherited an asshole. It is what it is. Let me make the best of it. Ah, let me manage up effectively. So knowing that

Starting point is 00:21:02 they were a micromanager, I was like, I need to take control of the situation. Instead of them randomly dropping in or throwing my day into the fire by popping in, assigning something, doing this, whatever, blah, blah, blah. I was like, hey, I'm setting up recurring meetings in these recurring meetings twice a week. This is where I will give you a quick rundown of everything I'm working on, the status of everything, blah, blah, blah. That's a great example of managing up. Right? Knowing that I knew that my leader was super insecure,

Starting point is 00:21:34 that they had insane imposter syndrome, they didn't know what they were doing, they were new to the organization, they are a micromanager, they needed that constant reassurance. I did that to try and manage a situation to make my day, my weeks, my life while I was still in that organization easier. To me, that's what managing up is really all about. How can I make my boss successful so that they can make me successful and advocate for me and we can be a team here you know. What would be like one way that you would suggest on managing up? One thing a common question because managing up can mean

Starting point is 00:22:16 you may be talking to a direct boss like in Berman. I mean I think it's influencing what you possibly can in the best way that you can and so sometimes it's asking for things, trying to get their support because rarely as a manager, are you going to be able to do things on your own, but especially things with like compensation benefits, things like that. Sometimes it's giving feedback that people need to hear. That to me is a much harder one, because if you do have that boss. And so one thing I think can be helpful, and I really recently talked to an organization about this in HR, and I said, because they talked about some issues they've

Starting point is 00:22:48 had with leadership, in unaware leadership, people that fashion themselves very supportive leaders, but the rest of the, a little bit of glass door, but then feedback says otherwise. And I said, well, you know, you're kind of lucky that you haven't had something go viral or you haven't really gotten blasted on glassdoor, but it sounds like it could be a matter of time. What if you meet people where they are and say, have a session with your leaders that's like the things that you're doing that could make us go viral for the wrong reasons. And they're like, whoa. And they won't listen to me, they'd listen to you.

Starting point is 00:23:21 And I said, I'm happy to have that conversation with people. But what I like doing best is to help other people have that internally. You got to decide what you got to do. Sometimes it's helpful to have me come in. But I said, giving specific examples and using some of, sometimes I use these case studies of like a layoff or the CEO videos and show like, this is how people actually receive this and these are your customers, your employees, your applicants. These are all people that to you, if they represent nothing more than money, you need to care about. And so that's a way I think of thinking how you give that more

Starting point is 00:23:52 critical feedback that can be very, very hard. I feel like I've been just kind of reflecting on it. I feel like I have had to be somewhat a chameleon in the different organizations and different bosses I've had throughout my years, but also within the same company. You almost have to take time to evaluate their management style so you even understand how you can approach them. I always reference Gallup Strike Finder because I think it's super interesting. If you can have your boss do it. For instance, one of my top fives is influence.

Starting point is 00:24:29 That's something I already know that is something for me that I can influence my boss like you were saying, Ashley. It's also nice to know what their strengths are and how you can better work with them because ultimately they're your boss and for it to be a more harmonious for you, sometimes you have to, like I said, be a chameleon, unfortunately. You're not completely changing your work style, but to understand how to better work with them, like I've mentioned before, the very super toxic CEO that I was under a while back, I knew that she does not accept ideas unless they

Starting point is 00:25:07 were her own. So that was the way to influence her would be like, hey, remember when we talked about this and you mentioned- And you said- I didn't need the credit. I've never needed the credit. So that was one way that I could get her to come around on things like giving everyone in the nursing part a raise after COVID.

Starting point is 00:25:25 Like they busted their ass. You had such a good idea on that. So I don't know. That's just one thing that I've found that works is because you have to almost mold and shape and to fit yourself. Well, what it is, is you have to focus on the relationship. The relationship matters. And so you have to learn that person while they are learning you.

Starting point is 00:25:48 So again, lean into that. Oh, well, besties, please use that influence power at work. You got this. You can do it. Manage up, manage up. Questions and comments? Well, I do have questions I'm going to put in our Instagram story, in our newsletter, because I was thinking of a few more,

Starting point is 00:26:09 but I'm going to make those a sneak multi-channel podcast. I don't know if that's the right word, multi-channel podcast, but I'm going to add some of those so those can be useful in our newsletter, in our HR Besties pod social Insta story. Love it. I have a quick comment. It's a confession, actually. I've never seen my Big Fat Great Wedding. Oh, it's good. The Windex. From a leadership movie to love story. Yeah. I have to see it. Okay. Did you watch Sex and the City? Yes, I did actually watch that.

Starting point is 00:26:39 Aidan. Oh, Aidan's in it. Yeah. He's in it and he's just such a hot guy. Aidan. It's lovely. It's so funny. Plus it makes me want to go to Greece. So. One day, he's in it and he's just such a... Hot guy, Aiden. He's lovely. It's so funny. Plus, it makes me want to go to Greece. So... One day, let's have a besties retreat to Greece. Yeah, love Greece. I'll make that my comment. I went to Greece once.

Starting point is 00:26:54 I went for spring break. I was studying abroad my junior year of college. So Center College in Danville, Kentucky is one of the top schools, small liberal arts school where I went, one of the top schools in the country for study abroad. Fun fact. And so they, I studied abroad in Strasburg, France, but we have this school and apartments there. We have this amazing travel schedule. And so with our like rail pass, we found out for spring break, we were able to go and take the trains and ferry to Greece. Oh my gosh. How beautiful.

Starting point is 00:27:23 Nice. Oh my God. And for the record, like I grew up riding in like the station wagon up to you know visit my grandparents in New Hampshire. Like this was totally a new world. So very excited. But I stayed at this place called the Pink Palace. Don't look up Pink Palace ever. The Pink Palace. You've mentioned Pink Palace, the hostel. The hostel, yes. They smashed plates on our heads. It was 25, I think it was zero at the time, I don't know, 25 of a round, the toga party that and they showed up once when I was, you know, years later, I was watching TV on Wild On, E Wild On.

Starting point is 00:27:56 Oh yes, damn, I remember that. I was thinking Girls Called Wild. Oh, I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, remember those commercials. I was like, you were watching that? For another day, your girl was on E Wild On. Oh, I know. Yeah. Remember those commercials? I was like, you were watching that? For another day, your girl was on E Wild On. Oh, damn. Not this episode.

Starting point is 00:28:10 Can you get the clip? Do you have it? I have the clip somewhere. I do have the clip somewhere. I have still, I do, I do. Yes, you are uploading it on Stories, please. Thank you. But the guy that owned the hotel shop, and he called himself like Dr. George. And you can guess when we would be like, you know, with our pink milk drink, we'd be like, what are you? What kind of doctor are you? Somebody would ask.

Starting point is 00:28:31 And he'd be like, you know, you can guess what part of the body. The booby doctor. Some different part. But he would claim to be that. And like, again, all the things that were, all was fine. I was with my friends and we were all safe for $25 a night. But anyway, I did, I said we like rented a car and drove safe for $25 a night. But anyway, I did. Oh my gosh.

Starting point is 00:28:46 I said we rented a car and drove around Greece. So it is a very pretty, very pretty. I'd like to go back, maybe spend $26 a night, really upgrade. So highly recommend. Yes, go to Greece. That's the comment here. But not a question for me, but a quick comment. I have coached folks on managing up, right? Because they came to me for help because a

Starting point is 00:29:07 relationship with the manager was crap. And they said, well, I don't like the concept of managing up because I think it's too political. Like, I think it's just too... It makes me a political animal, basically, right? And, you know, what I always say to that is, hey, managing up serves you. Don't be shy to serve yourself. You really do need to manage that relationship. That's what managing up is. You can take control of it. You can make your work life better. Do it for you. Think of it as a selfish act there for you to be successful. That's really what it's about. So, good of it as, you know, a selfish act there for you to be successful. That's really what it's about, you know, so good luck managing up besties. You got this. We believe in you. Boss that boss.

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HR BESTIES - HR Besties: Managing Up

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