HR BESTIES - HR Besties: Opting out of Leadership

Starting point is 00:00:00 If you think that your workplace is tame and that there's really no drama, nothing salacious, wild or crazy, you're just not in the know. You are obviously not working in HR. Truth. That is so true. Because every single workplace, schools, hospitals, gardening, corporate center, whatever. I mean, pick an industry, right, pick whatever, they all have their drama, their people drama, because people, right? I mean, people are working. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:00:40 And people are flawed, and they are very interesting creatures, right? So back in the day, I had an employee come to me to make a complaint, which is totally normal. And this employee was like, hey, my boss. is playing favorites with someone else on the team. I heard that a million times. I know y'all have, right? And it's nine out of ten times true. Like they are playing favorites, okay?

Starting point is 00:01:14 Because people bias. And so I said, okay, well, let me hear this. How are they playing favorites? And they listed, no kidding, like every single way a manager could play favorites with somebody, right? I mean, training opportunities, promotion, bonus, great work, projects, all the things, visibility, right? And so then I remember saying, well, why do you think that is? And the employee looked at me like I was stupid and was like, because they're dating. Like, duh.

Starting point is 00:01:52 And I was like, wait, what? Baring the lead. Yeah, like, wait, what? Like, I think people make the assumption that HR knows everything. Yes, we get a lot of the gossip, right? Yes, people are always talking to us, but we don't know everything, okay? Like, some things are hidden and some things, you know, we only know what y'all tell us, right? So, okay, there's when I finally learned about that one.

Starting point is 00:02:17 I was like, what do you mean they've been dating? And the person's like, yeah, I think for like over a year now, like a year and a half, like a long time. And I'm thinking, okay, they never disclosed that. And obviously, what do we have? We have a conflict of interest. Like, totally, if they're dating, she is being favoreded by the boss. And, you know, you're making all the connections, right? Like, okay, this is probably legitimate.

Starting point is 00:02:39 But here is the interesting thing, okay? Because that's normal, right? We hear those stories all the time. But here's what's really cray-cray about this one. Get this shit. The manager, all right? His wife also works for the business in the same building, leading another department down the hall. No, it gets better. It gets so way better. The employee who's being favoreded, her husband works for the business.

Starting point is 00:03:13 Oh, wow. And sits in the cubicle across from hers. He is on the same team as her, reporting to the same manager. Their cubicles are outside of that manager's office that she is having the affair with. Both spouses work for the business in the same building. She is on the same team with her husband reporting. Her husband is reporting to her lover. Now, wait, I'm so curious that they called that dating. That was an interesting verb choice in that situation. Because you know what's fascinating what I've learned, like y'all reinforce this for me, is how little some people know about their coworkers, too. That guy didn't even realize that his wife, the manager's wife,

Starting point is 00:04:08 like, worked there as well, like different last names, down the hall, out of side out of mind, a function he didn't deal with, you know what I mean? Like, so he had no idea. He knew his coworkers those two were married like his peers you know but yeah he's still called so how do you explain why you got fired if you're that manager how do you go home and explain because you know what that wife asked and i can't divulge that because it's not her business it's a love square it's a love square fucking it's a rombus i mean i don't know there's a lot it's a it's not an equilateral triangle, I'll tell you that. Pick a shape, shit. Fucking shape shifter. Fucking just work. Just work. God. That's when it gets found out. I mean, that's where it gets found out.

Starting point is 00:05:01 Like, that information may have been known by few, but the second that they get fired and those things, that's where it runs like wildfire. What would be awkward is to the point of having the different last names and not knowing their relationship, someone that shares that information and all of a sudden doesn't realize how, who how much that hits home. Mm-hmm. So I know there was a divorce and there was all sorts of drama and there, I mean, you know, and all of that comes into the workplace, right? Shoot. But it's shit like that that a lot of people do not pick up on, you are not seeing that stuff happen behind the scenes. Just all of a sudden someone is choosing to leave or is being walked out with the box and you're like, uh. It is funny as HR because you do tend to find out because people.

Starting point is 00:05:48 sometimes will come and say, you know this, right? And again, sometimes people assume that you know things or they'll give you information. But the interesting thing is when you start a new job in HR and people want to give you that information. And quickly they'll say, well, we have this mother daughter pair over there. And I will say, hell have no fury, like sometimes a mother daughter pair in the workplace. Because that... I don't think I've had that. Oh, yeah, it's rough. Yeah. Hospitality, working in hospitality, like, I can't, I'm talking, brother, sister, cousins, uncles, father, sons, like, they all work at the same place, and I swear. Exactly, and sometimes there's smaller towns or, I mean, that's pretty much the largest one, I think, smaller towns, or just some like times a referral source. Like, this person would be perfect for the job, and you're like, totally from a skills perspective.

Starting point is 00:06:42 But when you think about lost productivity in the workplace, there's so many things like, oh, being impaired in the workplace, being tired, all these things. Relationships also, I do think, fall into that category because it brings so much to the workplace. So I know those listeners, every once in a while people talk about that and they'll say, oh, by the way, these people are a parent-child. And I think, oh, I know there's a lot of layers to that onion at work. Oh, gosh, wasn't that something? Have you been putting off that trip because you're nervous about not speaking the language? Well, don't sweat it. Babel's got your back.

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Starting point is 00:09:58 I think she's got a good one. And then, like I said, we'll be moving into the hot topic of this meeting, which is all about opting out of leadership. So, gosh, there's lots of discussion. on that one, isn't there? And then, as always, questions and comments at the end before closing out the meeting. Jamie, what do you got? Yeah, so we had a bestie actually submit this. They had heard it in a SHRM webinar. Oh, man, I just bowed my head. Yep, yep. Society of Human Resource Management webinar, okay? Mother's Milk. Oh, my God. How was that used?

Starting point is 00:10:38 Well, see, that's the thing, is like, we were not given context. So I'm not really sure how it was used. But it wasn't a lactation, like a pumping at work webinar. No. Like, it's pure as mother's milk. Was it like that? Or we don't know? We don't know. We just said that mother's milk was used and, like, they had a visceral reaction. Oh. Yeah. I'm looking this up. Yeah, so am I. Right. It's corporate crinchpeak. It can be, like, essential. Like, data is the mother's milk of our

Starting point is 00:11:08 strategy. No, was it a woman or a man that said that? I would assume a man, because a man would be like that. I don't know. It would never occur. You know where I thought about that term? When you said that, it reminded me of a core memory. That was a Red Hot Chili Peppers album back in the 90s.

Starting point is 00:11:29 And I remember, I totally remember, speaking of dress codes, we weren't talking about that, but being in the office at school, I think in middle school and someone came in with a shirt from that album and that album I mean just look real quick I mean I can't remember

Starting point is 00:11:47 if it's like an exposed chest but I remember I remember sitting there and I was not I wasn't getting in trouble I was probably you know talking about student council but it was this kid

Starting point is 00:11:58 and there was a discussion about whether it was appropriate or not and this kid was like it's the First Amendment I remember thinking oh this is quite the discussion so I'm sure they're you know battling the drive

Starting point is 00:12:08 rest code years later. But I do remember someone, I think, eventually getting sent home from school for wearing that shirt. Now that you said that, I actually set my youngest to school today in a shirt that says legalized marinara. Well, that's fun. Okay, that's really clever, actually. Watch him get in trouble for that. And it's like, it's so cute. Someone's going to glance at it the wrong way. I know. Oh, damn. I just like, was like, maybe that wasn't appropriate now. Like, saying that. I'm like, I didn't, to me, it was funny, so I didn't even think anything happened. Oh, damn. Here's what the chat GPT says on the mother's milk, though. It's funny. They say, mother's milk and corporate speak, absolutely unhinged. Let's cringe together.

Starting point is 00:12:54 It says it's supposed to describe something pure, necessary, or fundamental to business success. But they say, if someone does say that, though, instead say, like, that's the oxygen of our business. And, you know, I've heard that, right? I'm guessing it might be like that. It says, if someone uses that unironically in the workplace, please pause the meeting, sip your coffee, and ask what stage of Freud's leadership theory is this exactly? Wait, Chad, you B.T. You said that? Oh, my gosh. Yeah. I've got my train.

Starting point is 00:13:26 You too. I mean, it is so funny. It makes me laugh because I tell it, you have to make me laugh when you reply. Because it won't cuss. And so I say, well, then you better make some shit snarky. like so I get the crazy shit yeah that is so funny oh well good and now we have something to add to some of our chaty VT prompts in our our newsletter today mine's like will ask me like do you want more dark humor today I do I do how dark you feeling today mine's all serious and motivational like yeah let's go let's go guys I've put poor Clarissa through the ringer on my end so if you haven't notice, Jamie calls Chachyp. T. Clarissa, because it explains it all. There we go. Well,

Starting point is 00:14:13 that's maybe use oxygen or infamil or any substitute in your next. It's like baby formula. Yeah, don't try that one in a meeting today. Sometimes we'll say try cringe corporate speak. Yeah, not this one. Oh, hot topic, gone. Unless you want to end the meeting, end the meeting. But then you'll end up in the office, just like that person with a hot chili pepper's shirt. So you don't want to. You. You don't want to make HR's workload rougher today. Oh, gosh, shifting from the liquid gold discussion. That's mother's milk, just FYI, in case you didn't know.

Starting point is 00:14:47 Opting out of leadership, man, I am seeing tons of memes on this, all sorts of shit, right? I mean, it's definitely a layered topic. It's a hot topic in, you know, the social discussion right now. It's like one part rebellion, another part self-preservation, right? opting out of leadership. You know, so what we are seeing now versus any other time of my career, this is just me talking personally, really, is people not wanting to be promoted into leadership positions. And I'll tell you what, I've never seen that before.

Starting point is 00:15:27 It's just a recent phenomenon for me, right? I mean, people were really hustling, working hard for that. I mean, it was like that was the goal. the mission, right? And we know so much stuff has changed culturally and societally, all the things, especially since COVID. And we have Gen Z. You know, all of the shifts, you know, and are you all seeing this too? Are you seeing a lot in the public arena, this discussion about opting out of leadership? Yeah. You know, I don't know the statistics, but they're saying a lot of millennials are rethinking the traditional career ladders, right? So they're almost clinging.

Starting point is 00:16:04 down the corporate ladder or opting out of leadership roles altogether. And I think, I think even me myself, or I myself, when I do get back in that corporate world, I don't know if I want to be at the same level that I was, even myself. I think because I did it and it proved to not be fruitful for me. And so I just want to be able to go to a job, do my job, and then leave at five or clock out, quote unquote, at five, and leave it all there and not have to worry about, you know, getting a report done or signing back on or Saturdays and Sundays having Sunday scaries. Like I think I just, I want to just be able to do my job, do my job well, and then call it a day. I think that's fair, right? I mean, why are people opting out of leadership?

Starting point is 00:17:00 There's really something to be said about that. I mean, because it's really hard to argue against that and people wanting to do things. And so sometimes organizations will say, okay, well, that means there's going to be tradeoffs. So you may not get the compensation that you want if you don't want to take on and lead other people as well. And I'll get comments frequently saying, you know, managers shouldn't be making more than team members. I disagree because I do think what the heart of that gets at is managers aren't worthy of getting paid more. And I think there's reasons behind that managers need to be trained. I think if you can have leaders that can harness a team, and different individuals and motivate them and get progress, then that should be rewarding.

Starting point is 00:17:38 And it's really, it's not easy to do. I do think there's a lot of things that can make it easier. But I think if you're not giving incentives to people to want to lead a team and help to do that, then the people that are going to do that are generally doing that out of like an ego or the title and not paying them more is kind of taking advantage of that. And so I think it's, it really is rational. And so I think for organizations thinking about having career paths, okay, people don't want to be a manager. Why is that? And I think having those conversations

Starting point is 00:18:08 rather than making just assumptions, but why is that and what can we do about that? And for some people, the answer is going to be, at the end of the day, it's not because there's nothing that you can do to change my mind. So having expert career paths, like someone like Jamie, you've spent years, years doing HR. You know how to do processes so, so well. And so what you can do is not only do the job, but train others and share your knowledge. Neither of those things requires being a manager necessarily. And so I really encourage organizations to think wholesale about their career paths, but also making it because a lot of managers feel like, like, okay, when everybody's out, I have to do their work for them. I have to do all these things myself, like that whole

Starting point is 00:18:50 working Saturdays and Sundays. I do not think that leaders should have to sacrifice aspects of their life to get ahead. I don't think that it's just compensation for money. And so I do think wholesale, thinking about career paths and making management and leadership more tenable and also rethinking the value of your team members and that they add more value over time, even if they're not managing others. The twisted tale of Amanda Knox

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Starting point is 00:19:57 historical, traditional, whatever you want to call it, expectation that leaders do have to trade off, right? They do have to trade off a big part of themselves, their personal lives. There is a lot of trauma that comes with a title. There just is. Like people think it's, quote, easier at the top or your manager has it easy. You just see one piece of their day, right? For the majority of managers, especially middle management, they are that tragic, squishy piece in the middle that they are getting it coming down and they are getting it coming up. And like, that is my opinion, the hardest job, that middle management piece in an organization.

Starting point is 00:20:48 It is not cozy. It is not comfortable. The rewards and, you know, the ROI is off. I mean, it is tough, right? So there's a lot of trauma. And so I think as, you know, people shift and desire different things out of their career because they can now, right? They're putting more value perhaps on personal hobbies and their lives, their family, whatever, right? Very openly, especially, I can see why a leadership, you know, role in many organizations would not be attractive.

Starting point is 00:21:24 For me, it's like a burnt out thing, right? Like, because I was at that middle manager level for so long, and it's like navigating, supporting your team and making sure they have what their need, but also getting, like, just like you said, Lee, that, you know, C-suite, well, these are the metrics you have to hit, and this is what you have to do. And, like, not, they're not being an in-between. It's kind of brutal, right? They're, like, you can't, you cannot win no matter what you do.

Starting point is 00:21:54 Right, because if you're a good leader, you know, you want to support your team and you want to get them there and you want to see them succeed. But at the same time, you're being told, you know, X, Y, and Z. And then all these layoffs that are occurring, too, with, like, a lot of companies introducing AI into their workforce. So, like, a lot of the tech companies. And then you're laying off half your team, right? And so I think about that. And I'm just like, I don't know if I can do that again, truthfully. I mean, Jamie, one thing is, I noticed that you said when I go back to corporate, which is interesting.

Starting point is 00:22:28 I don't want to. But there's also things that you're really good. It's hard. I mean, I think what Jamie's going through is a little different. Like, you know, not many people, including myself, I don't have these Instagram pages that, again, people think that these are. I was going to say cash cows, but that kind of now sounds like Mother's Milk for Jamie, but realistically, it's not. And we've talked a little bit about that. But trying to pursue, like, forge your own path and a creative path.

Starting point is 00:22:55 And then also pulling into, like, there is traditionally been some security more in the corporate environment that's, you know, been up in the air a bit. And so it's hard, neither path are. And I've seen so many people, more women than not, but men as well, that announce, like, I'm starting this business. I'm going to do this business. I'm going out on my own. And then within six months to two years, they're back in corporate. In some of it, I think, I mean, I know running a business. It's hard.

Starting point is 00:23:19 There's a lot of reality, so it's hard. It's hard. No matter what you do and the support you have, it's hard. Yeah. But as you think, Jamie, about going back, like if you were to go back to corporate and being a manager, what are the things that you really enjoyed about being a leader, that people that are opting out of it may not, that haven't been a manager, but are proactively opting out? What are some of the things that you really, really enjoyed about that? And then what are some of the other aspects that maybe you didn't? I truly loved supporting my team. Like, I loved when we had a win. And I thoroughly enjoyed, I guess, getting to their level of a project or something and understanding the nitty gritty so that when I report up about it,

Starting point is 00:24:04 I truly understand what I'm talking about or even if I have them do it. That was probably my favorite part. It's like having a team of people that I just genuinely cared about and I wanted to see us succeed as a department, but also for the company, because obviously HR is a little different, right? Like, we're working for our customers, which are the employees. So that was always something fun for me. But I think which was the least fun was the distrust from C-suite. So one thing I would always do is I'm very vocal.

Starting point is 00:24:38 I've always been very vocal. So I would communicate things. Like, I was lucky that I've always had people trust me to come to me and tell me things, whether they're, you know, under me as a direct report or not. And so being able to voice concerns or things that I've, you know, flags I've had from people up. But I think that's also where I'm like, I'm done with it because they don't go anywhere. Like, they fall on deaf ears, not always. You know, I've had leaders that took what I said seriously and they've said,

Starting point is 00:25:12 you know, you've got a pulse on the culture, and we trust your opinion, and we know that you truly have the needs of the business, you know, in mind when you're telling us these things, but I've also had it, you know, completely different way. Like, I don't really give a fuck what so-and-so said about, you know, they're fearful leadership. I'm like, well, that's a big deal. Like, we're just going to brush over that several people have come up to me and said they're fearful of this leadership? And I appreciate that, Jamie, because I think it, I think those are very real thoughts.

Starting point is 00:25:44 And again, some I don't think about the benefits that you can have to your team as a manager. And sometimes those don't come as frequently as the tougher parts. But, but Lee, if you were back in corporate, which you're not, but if you were and you're like SVP of people and you're seeing this research, like I just looked in research of like, you know, Gen Z's 1.7 times

Starting point is 00:26:04 more likely to opt out of leadership roles proactively and things like that. If you're looking at this data and you're talking to others in the organization about this and what to do about it, what do you say? It's interesting because I think corporate, I'll just stereotype, generally looks at leadership as something performative. But I do believe that it's a calling. So first off, I don't want anyone in a leadership position that doesn't feel the purpose for it or doesn't recognize its impact. That's the best way to say it, because being a leader changes lives. It's been one of the ultimate joys of my career.

Starting point is 00:26:45 I became a leader really early in my 20s and a people leader, right? And I've always loved it. But I've loved it because for the majority of my career, I've been supported as a leader, right? So emotional labor without support is hell. It is torture. The other reason why I really enjoyed it, because I had a lot of training and investment in me. So I've been to corporate universities and I've got all sorts of leadership trainings, weeks and weeks of this bullshit that cost a lot of money. But that type of investment in me, that recognition of an organization,

Starting point is 00:27:34 that I'm worth being invested in because they believe in me that I can lead people effectively and productively. That just makes me a better leader and it makes me take it more serious. Like it is a path and a calling. I truly believe it. And so that's the important piece. If people are opting out because it's not for them,

Starting point is 00:27:56 yes, I think a big piece of it may be the environment, the organization not taking those roles seriously. And it's to their detriment, right? because we know a person's success really hinges on a leader's ability, right, to pull that talent out of the individual. But they're really missing the mark. That's what sucks so bad. I think most of it is probably the environment.

Starting point is 00:28:20 People probably may have the calling for it, but they can't do it there, you know? So I would say if you're opting out of leadership positions, ask yourself why. It may just be the environment. But if you do feel like you have a calling and you want to support people in this way, support them towards success, all the things, you know, try it on somewhere else. That sees the value in you as a leader and we'll invest in you, you know. So that's what I would tell people if they were in my organization. I'd be like, maybe it's not here for you. I would say that all the time.

Starting point is 00:28:53 My leaders hated that. Maybe this isn't the place for you, which sometimes that is just true. Like, just call it like it is, right? Just because you can't lead here doesn't mean you can't lead there. But I do think it's something with you and you that's like, God, I really do give a shit about people and want them to be successful. I mean, I think a lot of it, I think, is the people. What you said on like the emotional labor without support and without a recognition that it's emotional labor. That's modern management.

Starting point is 00:29:18 It's, it is. It's modern management. And it's this idea. It's like when people are working for nonprofits or things like that. And people go in and you're so gung-ho. And it's so quickly to truly, you know, burn out and opt out of that environment altogether because you see all the realities. of, you know, the flip side of that, having, you know, taking your work home with you mentally, if not sometimes physically. And, you know, realities of budgets and, you know, the come and go of those things, it's really hard. And so I think recognizing that and giving that support to people, the same in management is having that. I mean, as I think about the times when I was a leader, I mean, some of my best moments were like, you know, on the surface level, it's like when you got to deliver good news. Like, once I got to deliver

Starting point is 00:29:56 news about someone's promotion, they were being promoted to, I'll say, that's a hundred thousand salary. And it was like, they were going to be close, but we were like, we got, like, let's make it. And so I brought to the meeting with her a 100 grand candy bar. And I was so excited and had tears in my eyes to deliver this. And it was such an exciting moment. And so I remember that. And I think back to that because, of course, that was, it was a highlight and it was fun. And that was the total kind of personality. And they really, really earned it. But what I also think about are some of those times when people had a misstep and being able to coach them through it. Another time, I'd actually delivered a salary increase information and the person lost their

Starting point is 00:30:37 shit. And honestly, kind of human nature, there's times in my career, I would have done exactly the same, saying, like, this is bullshit. Like, you know I deserve more than this. Like, this is such like, totally losing it. And I said, at the time, I said, listen, there's times I would have reacted the same way. But what I'm going to do is we're going to pause the conversation. We're going to talk tomorrow because we can talk through it and the decisions and how these get made. but just let's just do that. And I'm here for you in between, but let's talk tomorrow. And coming back the next day, she's like, I can't believe I reacted like that.

Starting point is 00:31:04 And I thank you. And I said, look, there are some organizations. A reaction like that would be like, get out, get out. I said, part of my role is in the supportive role is to recognize there's going to be times that you wish you got more or you didn't. I can literally explain to you the P&L behind this and these reasons and what we can do moving forward. And that's what I can also do that's a lot of coaching and career development is

Starting point is 00:31:26 learning how to take bad news gracefully. And you're in your mind, you can think all that stuff, and we can have that conversation. But there's a lot of people you can't have that conversation with if you want to stay employed and grow your career. And you're going to have to deliver information like this sometimes if you want to advance. And we've talked about it since.

Starting point is 00:31:41 And she's like, I never forget that conversation. And so I think in those instances, there are times that, you know, you can't control budgets. You can't control things always. But sometimes you can, like, help people. And if you think as a manager about not just helping someone today in their job, but in their career and advice that can help them and navigate the realities of corporate or non-profit or government life, I just think that's some of the best things that you can do as a manager

Starting point is 00:32:07 and really stand out. Yeah, just give a mother's milk. Oh, my God, just suckle your employees and their to success. Suckle to success. Hashtag. Succle to success. Success suckles. No, teats for treats is really, I cannot, this is unhinged. Oh, gee, well, oh man, on that note, that, oh, but you know what? But that's what people thought. I bet in that webinar, that's what people were thinking their minds went there.

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Starting point is 00:33:38 definitely get you that. Get almost, almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now. Alcohol and select markets, product availability may vary by Regency app for details. Well, any questions or comments? I do have a question for y'all. Okay. Have you ever had a moment in your career where you wish you could have opted out of that leadership position? Maybe in that moment or in that day? I mean, I did. I took on, I mean, if you haven't heard this, my story, my origin of manager method is I had just gotten promoted and accepted to head North American HR for McKinsey and company consulting firm and was doing the job, leading the team also doing my existing job. I think I've mentioned this. Someone on my team

Starting point is 00:34:21 was, you know, somehow we were talking about, what would you do if you weren't working? Oh, I always have an answer for that. But I said, oh, one day, you know, I bought this domain, manager method.com a couple years ago, I want to start the business. And that's when she'd said, like, why wouldn't you do that right now? And it got me thinking. A lot of thoughts that I won't go into in this episode of the podcast. But I ended up saying, like, I'm not going to do it as I'm going to leave and start my company.

Starting point is 00:34:42 And I remember the head of HR saying, but we just announced it to the firm on like a PowerPoint. And that's like the most official thing you can do at the firm. And I was like, I. I know, I know, but I just can't. And so sometimes, like, the feeling in my stomach before that conversation, I could have used some sort of milk and cookies or something, but, Mother's milk. But sometimes, and I, that one I don't, I don't regret because I started my business, but also some days, I think, if I could have just stuck it out, maybe I could have,

Starting point is 00:35:13 maybe I could have stuck it out. But I'm glad I did what I did. Probably my first, like, manager role leading people, I was in, God, mid-20s, maybe 25, 26. I mean, shortly after college, and I had people reporting to me that were well above my age, and I started questioning, like, are they going to listen to me? Like, why did they give this to me and not her? Or, you know, like, those thoughts were constantly going through my head because I'm, like, little, I think I was like 25 or 26. Who's going to listen? You know, and like, so that, that was difficult. I mean, I got over it, but you have to build that trust as a leader, too, because, like,

Starting point is 00:35:56 this person, why are they going to listen to a little 25-year-old, Jamie, what does she know? You know what I mean? For me, times, I've had a couple times, I wanted to opt out of leadership. And most of those times were when I was in back rooms with higher level leaders. and experiencing how fucking stupid some of them were. Yes! And I'm like, damn. Like, I'm being led by that. Like, this is the bar for leadership.

Starting point is 00:36:27 Here is this brain dead idiot. Like, you know what I mean? Because it doesn't look good. Like, they call themselves a leader too, and I'm a leader. Like, God, I hope people don't get us confused. You know? But we make the assumption, right, that people above us know what they're doing, but that's not the case. We're all human, all trying to figure it out all the time, you know.

Starting point is 00:36:47 So I've had some just shocking moments. Any other questions or comments? I just had a quick comment. And Ashley, you kind of touched on this earlier in the episode. But I think with the way things are changing and millennials and Gen Z opting out of promotions, companies really need to think of ways to change career paths up. Maybe they're outdated leadership models. So how can we adapt them to retain our top talent and create, like, healthier, stronger workplaces? Because these new generations will soon be the ones leading our workforce. Ashley, what do you got?

Starting point is 00:37:28 Close us out. I think Jamie's point is a good one of sometimes you're managing people who are older than you. And I think that is one of the things that can feel so hard as a new manager or leading a team. And so sometimes I'll get that question. of like, what do you do about that? And the answer I give in so many situations is address it head on. And that doesn't mean me saying, like, how old are you? Do you know how old I am? But to Jamie's question of like them asking, what does Jamie know? That's a question that absolutely people are

Starting point is 00:37:58 going to have. And when you are older in the workforce and you have a younger manager, there's a reason there's movies and TV shows all about that because it can feel humanizing. But the flip of it is, I think having that new manager, when you start and you say, I don't know everything, but you know a lot of things. And my job is to support you and you focus at you, you, you, you, you, not I, I, I, I, I, I, I, because the natural instinct for people often is to talk about their credentials and this, you know, try to build themselves up. And really, if you focus and just flip that and talk a lot about the you and address the realities of that, it's the with him, as Lee says, those team members are often wondering, what does this mean for me? what's in it for me. And so I think that's a way to address that situation. And oftentimes people will say, I had a manager that was younger than me. And they, you know, they dealt with the bullshit I didn't want to or they did these things or they helped me. And like, and oftentimes

Starting point is 00:38:53 they may be surprised in that. And that's the realities. But if you are promoted in the leadership at a younger age, you can and will surprise people when you keep that focus on them. Mm, with them. You know what's in it for you? Mother's milk. Decline, RSVP, no. Will not attend. Cycle to success, besties. Ooh. Thank you.

Starting point is 00:39:40 Thank you.

HR BESTIES - HR Besties: Opting out of Leadership

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