HR BESTIES - HR Besties: Recapping our Holiday Do's and Don'ts, SHRM Verdict, and Cheers to the New Year!

Episode Date: December 10, 2025

Ho, ho, ho! Welcome to our final episode of 2025, Besties. Unfortunately, due to our busy December schedules, we weren't able to lock down a time to record all together. That said, we were able to separately record some updates on SHRM and a few last remarks before we go into hibernation mode over the holidays. Who's re-watching Hot Frosty this year? SHRM lawsuit verdict Throwback to some of our holiday party do's and don'ts Updates on the future of HR Besties in 2026 and wishing you a restful holiday! Your To-Do List: Grab merch, submit Questions & Comments, and make sure that you’re the first to know about our In-Person Meetings (events!) at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.hrbesties.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Follow your Besties across the socials and check out our resumes here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.hrbesties.com/about⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.  Subscribe to the HR Besties Newsletter - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://hr-besties.beehiiv.com/subscribe⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ We look forward to seeing you in our next meeting - don’t worry, we’ll have a hard stop! Yours in Business + Bullsh*t,  Leigh, Jamie & Ashley Follow Bestie Leigh! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@hrmanifesto⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/hrmanifesto⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.hrmanifesto.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Bestie Ashley! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@managermethod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/managermethod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleyherd/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://managermethod.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Bestie Jamie! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.millennialmisery.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Humorous Resources: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Threads⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Facebook⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠X⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Millennial Misery: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Threads⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Facebook⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠X⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Horrendous HR: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Threads⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Facebook⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Tune in to “HR Besties,” a business, work and management podcast hosted by Leigh Elena Henderson (HRManifesto), Ashley Herd (ManagerMethod) and Jamie Jackson (Humorous_Resources), where we navigate the labyrinth of corporate culture, from cringe corporate speak to toxic leadership. Whether you’re in Human Resources or not, corporate or small business, we offer sneak peeks into surviving work, hiring strategies, and making the employee experience better for all. Tune in for real talk on employee engagement, green flags in the workplace, and how to turn red flags into real change. Don't miss our chats about leadership, career coaching, and takes from work travel and watercooler gossip. Get new episodes every Wednesday, follow us on socials for the latest updates, and join us at our virtual happy hours to share your HR stories. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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55% off your Babbel subscription at babble.com forward slash HR Besties. Get up to 55% off at babel.com forward slash HR Besties, spelled BABB-B-B-B-B-E-L-L-com forward-slash- H.R. Besties. Rules and restrictions may apply. Ho, ho, ho, besties. And welcome to our H.R. Besties holiday party. We are so thankful that you are here. This is the season, right, for gratitude and appreciation. Shout out to all of y'all that have been listening. You're following. Thank you so, so much. We're coming up on the end of the year. Oh, my gosh.

November and December. Who, the worst. November. Although it's like, it's like yes, Vember for me as every month is. Exactly. Because of your face. My face. Come one, come all.

It's always a yes. That's what she's out. But, yeah. But, you know, it's wild because you're so stressed out from all the work stuff, right? And everyone needs to finish strong. some people are just starting their goals. You forgot, right, what you promised in January. But it's also for so many of us, like, the funnest time of the year, like, personally.

I know Jamie and I love December, especially as our birthday months, right? I mean, the holiday. Oh, gosh. So it's kind of torture in a way. Yeah, like, it's a lot of work. It's a lot. And it's a lot. It's a lot.

I'm an extrovert, but I also need my introverted time. And December doesn't allow for it. for that. You know what I mean? Because like every weekend, almost every night, there's something that you're doing. So by January, I'm like, I'm good. Like, I'll just stay in the house and not talk to anyone for a while. There are very few emotions that a Hallmark or Netflix holiday movie like on my couch in isolation cannot, cannot at least temporarily, like really, maybe not long-term cure. But it feels, feels good. Just watched Hot Frosty, which is. Magic scarf and a hot guy.

How did that happen? I know, we had a big debate. My daughter was like, he's not that hot. And I was like, oh, I disagree. And I was like polling. I'm like, the girls say he is. So there. Yeah, I don't think he's hot, actually, at all.

Oh, okay. Wait, is this the one about the snowman? Yes, he's. Oh, my God. I've seen memes about this. I will not give a spoiler to Hot Top Frosty to the Oscar, surely Oscar winning winning movie. But I will say this.

I bet he gets a lot hotter when he starts fixing shit up around the house in the movie. Because that will always, that will always, you know, ratchet up that scale from on a one to ten. Ooh, two more points there when he's handy around the house. So I will say there, reserve your judgment until you watch him in action. Oh, right. He's good. You know what I mean? Come on.

Well, he's good. But I'll tell you this is I cannot wait because I found an account on Instagram. and it's not one of, that's not one of ours. Ours are, I'd say ours are the four, the three best, but like, Jamie's got seven accounts, so whatever. There's an account that has, you know, it's, it to me is like the Instagram equivalent of watching a Hallmark or Netflix movie, that if I'm ever like, ooh, I have a minute and just need an epit, a pair of teeth.

And it is, I'm looking at heartthrob Rob Anderson. And so his name is Rob Anderson. I shared it the other day on my Instagram and I got multiple messages from people that are like, oh my God, I'm now going down this rabbit hole. And so he does like, he has like some original content, but a lot of what he does is goes back to like Berenstein Bears books, TV shows, movies, like he's going through every Mary Kate and Ashley Olson movie. And he goes through the plots.

It is so funny. And so I need to know what he's going to say about Hot Frosty. That's it. I don't know if I'll watch Hot Frosty, but I see it up there. I've seen the trailer a few times on the Netflix, you know. Yeah. I don't know if I'll partake. Well, it's funny because, you know, like different references.

So we start watching it. Of course, my daughter's like, oh, my God, that's the girl for mean girls. Because it's Lacey, like, yeah, yeah, yeah. She's in every Hallmark movie. She's like, look, it's Gretchen Weeners. Right. I'm like, oh, clearly we haven't watched enough hallmark together because she's a repeat offender in these movies.

And so you forget some of the things. Okay, so Ashley, then you're a Hallmark movie watcher. Oh, yeah. I mean, honestly, probably more Netflix than Hallmark if there's a difference. I'm just lazy and I don't pay for the Hallmark channel, but yeah. Okay. Lee, what about you? Do you watch the Hallmark movies?

No. Yeah, I don't either. I don't even know if we have the Hallmark Channel. I'm open to it, but I just tend to, especially during the holidays, like I've already seen Home Alone, one through six, like, three times. Like, I just play them as noise, you know what I mean? And through the weekend and whatnot. I tend to return to like the same classic movies. You know, like over and over.

Tell me you're not calling when they switched kids, like from a colleague. No, they're terrible. When does his little brother, too, one of them? Yeah, the first one. But who then went on. I think that's the same little brother that went on to become succession, to become, to become. Yeah, really that's his prime character. But like, do you rewatch like Home Alone 5, Lee?

Which is horrific. Home Sweet Home Alone is okay. I mean, some of them. One of them is, like, filmed on someone's phone. Like, it is, like, shaky. Like, it's terrible. The one with the thieves. Oh, well, there's a couple with the thieves.

I mean, it's, I think they all with them. But it's a, I don't know. They're, they're terrible. Okay. They are horrific, you know. I don't want to be, I don't want to be a humble brag here. But between Jamie recommending loss, we trying to defend Home Alone five. I'm bringing heart from Brom Anderson,

and that seems like the only recommendation you can count on today, besties. You got hot frosty. Well, yeah, I'd like to know. Well, I'll put that in the thing to see what people think about it. Like, I'm not going to give it more than like a 6.4 out of 10, but I didn't mind watching it.

I thought it was holiday spirit. Yeah, when we need that. Do you all have like a favorite holiday movie? I like Home Alone too. There I go back to the Home Alone. Do you know I love Love Actually? But it's probably something that Rob Anderson covered that guy, you know, because it really, how is that girl fat? Oh, God, don't even know what I mean?

Like, she's stunning. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's just ridiculous. But that scene where they're kissing and the music and all, I just love it. Oh, you know. Yeah, that's a good one. Yeah, that might be that might be, that might be my favorite. Jamie?

I think the Santa Claus with Tim Allen, the first one. That's just such a good one. I've already watched that one. I don't know. And I love Christmas vacation. Like, those are two movies I have to see in the month of December every year. What about that Santa Claus three? With Jack Frost.

I mean, that was shit. Getch and the robot Santa. But I'm trying to get in the mood and spirit. I've been decorating. So that's my thing. I love to decorate everything. Lee has shared photos of her front porch with us. And holy shit, it is absolutely gorgeous.

It's like this winter wonderland, like candy land. It's magical. HR Martha Stewart over here. Yeah. It looks so good. I just love that art and design bullshit. I can't help it, you know. But you have that nice handwriting, that nice teacher handwriting. I do think it all kind of goes together because my handwriting is not great and my decorations do not look like that. I do, you know, I get a good few blow up things, distract from the lack of skill. But it's very, it is very, it's a real talent. It's art. I love it. No, I've been, you know, I go to the home goods. Have you seen all those funny videos lately about the home goods and people going through the. store. Oh, my God. Love looking through the trash. Yes. I saw one the other day. It was like, it was a couple. And she was like, you know, I've always wanted a Santa pooping. And he goes, hold on. I have just the thing for you. And he like shows the Santa pooping. It's hilarious.

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Hey, it's Ashley. Did you know that there was a trial against Sherm last week? Of course, you're listening to this podcast. So you know that we've been covering this for months, that there was a trial last week in federal court in Denver against the Society for Human Resource Management. The self-proclaimed, trusted authority in all things work, and the lawsuit was a racial discrimination and retaliation lawsuit brought by a former employee that Sherm had let go from employment over five years ago. Only now did it actually end up in trial. Now, first, it's a little weird to be recording this by myself. Normally, I have Lee and Jamie by my side or by my screen,

but it's the holidays, it's year-end, and it's hard to get everybody together. So we weren't going to record a whole new episode, but then the Shirm trial happened, and here we are. Now, let's go back to where we were, because as we were getting ready for trial, we talked about all sorts of things, the motions in liminey, where, for example, Sherm asked the judge to bar any argument or evidence of Sherm as a model employer because they didn't

want the jury to get confused or think that there was a different legal standard because Sherm is a human resources organization. And the judge had ruled against Sherm saying, well, we're not going to bar it entirely because some of what Sherm does. That's integral to the actual lawsuit, especially if there were punitive damages, for example. But the parties had gone back and forth. we talked about the voir dire questions. Sherm wanting to ask questions to the jurors about their thoughts on the protest in the light of George Floyd's murder, or as they called it, George Floyd's death, the plaintiff requesting to the judge to ask questions about a recent jury verdict in Colorado federal court that was

also for racial discrimination and retaliation. And that was a $20 million verdict. And so they wanted to ask that specific number to the jury to say, oh, there was recently a verdict for this. What do you think? The judge didn't allow the plaintiff's counsel to actually ask. that and give that number. But we've been talking a lot about the prep up to the trial. Now, one thing is the trial was supposed to take place the week before Thanksgiving. And so Lee

and I were going and we were trying to get Jamie to go too. But as sometimes happens, things rain long. And so the case that the judge had the week before this ran long. And so the judge had to move it to the week after Thanksgiving. So that's why we didn't end up actually going to the trial, which made is very sad because inasmuch as I used to be a lawyer before I was a lawyer in HR and I don't practice law anymore. So I haven't been in a courtroom in some time, but I definitely would have liked to be in a courtroom to see everything that happened. But by now, I'll cut to the chase, you've likely seen that Sherm got a verdict from the jury for $11.5 million. But let's break down some of what you might not have seen. Now, first of all, this trial lasted for five days a week,

which is what it expected. As the trial started, we were looking through every day on the pacer docket. There's what's called a minute entry. So you can kind of get a summary of what happened that day. Like who testified as a witness, how long things took, when the jury was in and out of the courtroom, when they were selected. And so as the trial got started, it actually seemed to be taking a good amount of time. It took a lot of time for the plaintiff, for example, to be on the stand, being questioned. And so I thought the trial might actually get moved or take longer than the week expected. But then things started really moving along. And some of it was back and forth.

Like, okay, the people that came to testify. For example, the plaintiff, her former boss testified. So some of the normal characters, executives from Shirm. But Thursday is when things got really interesting. And when I saw the minute entry for Thursday, I ended up reaching out to the court reporter and purchasing the rough draft transcript so I could see what happened. Now, it was the rough draft.

But in short, on Thursday I saw that there was a witness called to trial. And that witness was Johnny C. Taylor, the CEO of Sherm. Now, for those that have ever been involved in employment litigation, especially if you've ever been on the employer side like your NHR, you might be familiar that most organizations literally fight tooth and nail to prevent the CEO from having their deposition taken or giving testimony and trial in court. But normally all the effort is going into preventing that. Rarely do you see a CEO voluntarily show up for trial. And it's super interesting because Sherm actually had just recently been involved in another federal lawsuit. This was in federal court in Virginia, where if Sherm was being sued by a former consultant

that had worked on its CEO action for inclusion and diversity, Sherm had cut off the contract, stopped paying the consultant, so she brought the lawsuit about how much was to be paid. But as part of that, that plaintiff had issued a notice that she was going to depose Johnny C. Taylor, the CEO Sherm. And Sherm went to the court to say, like, hey, no, no, no, halt this from happening. And so the day before the court hearing over whether Johnny C. Taylor would be required to testify, the party's actually settled. So while that one got resolved, that showed the much more normal course of action or common course of action to fight a CEO coming in. But Johnny C. Taylor showed up to this trial. He only testified for not that long on Thursday, but going through the transcript, it really seemed to show up to show his care for employees, saying that he had an open door policy, that the plaintiff had reached out to him in around June of 2020.

He was on the phone, and he pulled over his car. So he was talking about how much he was open to those communications. He did interestingly talk about how the plaintiff had told him that she felt discriminated against. So that was a bit interesting part. But Johnny C. Taylor in the courtroom, I think Lee and Jamie and I would have definitely been interested to see that. But other things that were going on, for example, the lawyers for Sherm, at the end of the plaintiffs putting on their witnesses, and then again, when Sherm finished their witnesses, is Sherm's lawyers had asked the court for what's called a judgment as a matter of law. The initials are JNOV, and I know that makes no sense, but this is an idea.

It's kind of similar to a motion for summary judgment, basically saying that a jury shouldn't hear this case. And so with this type of motion, what the lawyers are saying is, hey, we've heard all of the evidence. And yeah, the jury's been sitting here and we appreciate them being here. They're not here when the parties are arguing this to the judge. But to say, they haven't put on evidence of discrimination or retaliation, so everybody should go home and Sherm should win. Shirm filed a written motion on this. And in this motion really

was calling plaintiffs more product shoddy. Again, when you have these lawsuits, it's already bad enough. But a lot of the back and forth language is just, you know, basically what you'd expect in litigation. It's brutal. But the judge denied that. It's very common for parties to argue that. Again, this was a case we'd mention that because of the laws at stake, it's because the plaintiff brought this under Title VII, which is a federal law, about discriminatory. but also Section 1981, which is another federal law that's specific to race discrimination with unlimited caps. And so here, the plaintiff could have gotten an unlimited amount of money. So Sherm had every incentive to not have a jury here in this case. But it's very common for

parties' defendants to raise this type of motion. It's also very common for judges to deny it. And that's what happened here. But then as the parties went towards opening and closing argument, there were a few things that happened. One in particular is there was some arguments about slides. Now, Sherm talked a lot about deadlines and how the plaintiff was terminated from employment in her role as a senior instructional designer, some of the design courses for Sherm to sell to the public, because she missed two deadlines. But one thing that's come up, and we've talked about this on the podcast, but that she had plaintiff's Egyptian black, she had a white colleague who filed a sworn declaration, to sworn testimony, saying that she, this white colleague,

had complained to multiple individuals in leadership, in HR at Sherm, that she believed that the plaintiff was being discriminated on the basis of her race. And in addition to that, she also says that she had missed deadlines and had no negative consequences. So unlike the plaintiff, who lost her job, that this deadline missing wasn't even brought up on her performance review. And during the trial, she ended up bringing up something that didn't even come into her sworn declaration where she told the court that she actually missed a deadline on purpose. to be able to support the plaintiff and show that she was being treated more favorably than her. Now, in their closing argument, Sherm talked about that and seemed very disbelief about that.

But it was wild to have a colleague show up and give this type of evidence. And again, this is the same colleague where Sherm, years after the fact, had found a recorded conversation of her, this colleague, and an executive at Sherm, where the colleague had described it one way in the sworn declaration, and Sherm said the tape was very different. And so while we haven't heard this tape, there was a lot going on about credibility. In addition to things about these slides and deadlines, because in the midst of all this argument about deadlines and missing projects, Sherms and lawyers were trying to get slides ready for their closing argument. And there was some debate between plaintiffs' counsel and defense counsel about how timely those disclosures were. And kind of a funny thing that that can relate to all of us is

just before closing arguments, the lawyers for the parties had arguments outside of the jury's presence talking about these slides that the defense was supposed to turn over. And apparently they'd given these slides to plaintiff's counsel. When plaintiff's counsel opened them up, there was no text visible. It was like all white. In defense counsel, one of the lawyers was like, I was up all night trying to figure this out. And it turns out it was just a technical issue with their law firm because Sherm's lawyers with Littler Mendelsohn, one of the largest employer-side law firms in the world, and so apparently they have very, very strong technical aspects, but that kept converting their slides into an unreadable format for plaintiff's counsel. So anyway, that got resolved.

But for those of us that have been the middle of a busy project and then had technical issues get in the way, that's exactly what happened to Sherm's lawyers. Well, again, you all know how it ends with the verdict. But one really notable thing is that parties had opening and closing or they had closing arguments on the last day of the trial, and then the jury deliberated. The jury only deliberated for a number of hours. And only three and a half hours after the jury had the case, they asked questions. And this can happen because the jury's in their room, they're deliberating, and if they have questions, they can submit this piece of paper and give it to a judge. That's what happened. Now, the question that came about, I can only imagine what Sherm's lawyers felt when they

saw this, because the piece of paper actually had two questions. One question was, who receives punitive damages? Which is an interesting question, because I guess you can imagine the question might be who the heck actually gets this if we give punitive damages. They didn't say who they were wondering, but natural questions might be, like, is it the plaintiff? Is it some government agency? The answer here is the plaintiff. But the second question is one that Sherm's lawyers, their stomachs must have dropped because the question was, is there a formula or max value for punitive damages? And so generally, when a jury's asking a question like that, three and a half hours after they're deliberating, it doesn't send a very strong signal to the defense. Certainly

tends to suggest that they're going to find for the plaintiffs and want to know just how much money they can give. And there wasn't an amount. In closing arguments, you kind of wonder, like, how do people come up with these verdicts? Both sides, like the Sherm's lawyers, for example, often they'll walk through the jury verdict form and say, you should write no for this, you should write no for this, meaning no that the plaintiff has not met her burden. Of course, the plaintiff's lawyers are saying, yes, yes, yes, yes, you should find yes for this. And they were talking about from a monetary perspective how much the jury could possibly think or consider for compensatory and punitive damages. Compensatory damages are more of like the pain and suffering to make someone whole.

Punitive damages are to prevent the organization. So here, Sherm, as the defendant, from taking this type of action to anybody else. So some of the amounts that Sherm's lawyers talked about, for example, is they raised what Sherm's revenue had been previously, which was just over $260 million in a year. And then this education group that the plaintiff was a part of the year after she left, revenue was about $6 million. I'm just saying that can be a place to start, for example, for some of these figures and punitive damages. You know, think about it. You want to send a message to Shirm.

That's often the languages. And this is where Plaintiff's Council really hit on some of those points about Shirm's expertise. And just like we talked about on the podcast, a very natural thing to do would be to say their name, the Society for Human Resource Management. Their slogan is better workplaces, better world. And so the lawyers for the plaintiff were definitely bringing those type of things about, especially when they're talking about punitive damages. The message seemed to be hard, loud and clear. And for all of this, so for over five years since this plaintiff was terminated from employment,

and all of the court cases, the depositions, the filings, everything, it's pretty anticlimactic when it gets the end of it. Basically, the jury comes in, they read the verdict, then they tell how much they found in compensatory. So $1.5 million in compensatory and $10 million in punitive damages. The judge asks, each individual juror, like, you agree with this verdict? Like, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. And then the parties are on their way. Now the question somehow is, okay, what happens now?

Like, first from the lawsuit. So this isn't one of those cases that, like, the plaintiff walked out of the courtroom with a giant check that said from SHRM to plaintiff, $11.5 million. What happens is now SHRM has the choice of whether to appeal or not. And from their own statement, it certainly sounds like they're going to. If you've gone and you can go on Sherm's website or on their LinkedIn, they've talked about that this case has no merit, none, as Sherm says it, and that they will appeal to the highest courts in the land.

And in this case, the next level court is the Tenth Circuit Court of Appeals, because this is federal court. The Tenth Circuit makes up the Colorado where this took place in a bunch of other, say, like westernish states. And after that, the next appeal will be the U.S. Supreme Court. And when you appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court, they do have a right to appeal to the court of appeals, but the U.S. Supreme Court has to, like, agree whether to accept your case or not. And all of this can get drug out for years. And now what can happen in the meantime is because the plaintiff has this

verdict, then Sharm could be required to post a bond. So if you've ever heard of like a bail bondsman where someone has a million dollar bond, but they go to like a bail bond company and they're like, okay, pay a percentage of that. But if you don't show up for court, then we're going to keep your deposit, then it's very similar that there's corporate bonds as well. So Sherm may be required to have the corporate bond and that can do all sorts of things like accrue with interest, but suffice to say is that this is likely to continue on from an appeals process. It's pretty quick. I think it's 30 days from my memory that Sherm has to have their notice of appeal, but then the back and forth happens and the Court of Appeals could have people come in and argue. Sherm has to say specifically

what aspect they're appealing on. But overall, their reaction has definitely been what people might imagine. Certainly those not in HR look at this and think an HR organization getting hit with this is quite ironic to say the least. But there's been a lot of reaction about what's next for those that have things like SHRM certification. And we've talked about this a lot on the podcast. People certainly have different feelings about SHRM. My podcast co-hosts feel their own way for SHRM. But there have been a lot of discussions between local SHRM chapters, SHRM, national, meaning like the organization here that was the defendant. There's that, and that's located in Alexandria, Virginia. There's also local chapters all over the place. Often those are

volunteer run. Those provide a lot of resources to their members. And so we've heard from a lot of HR Besties listeners trying to figure out what to do, what to do with certification. And so all of us know, if you've ever gone through a professional certification, including those at Sherman otherwise, you put on a lot of work for it. And so you also want it to be valuable and show those things. And so we've had a lot of conversations and seen a lot of comments about that. And you can look on LinkedIn for a lot of opinions on how people feel about this lawsuit. But I wanted to give the breakdown because we have been covering this. And we've appreciated you all listening. I've tried to give the legalese aspects of it and give some of those peaks behind the scenes.

But overall, this is a subject that we'll definitely be talking about. We'll keep talking about on our social media. But we've appreciated everybody tuning in. I've appreciated people listening. thanks to my PACER and now court transcript bills that are ever increasing. But we know this is one that is notable. And looking back on it in the depositions, in some of those emails, there are definitely lessons to be learned for all employers, including SHRM. And I hope that employers remember that nobody's expected to be perfect. But just like I was quoted in the recent Business Insider article that just came out just before Thanksgiving about SHRM. But when you are the organization, charging people for best practices, talking about yourself as the expert.

It is important to know, just like the other aspects of leadership, when you're not perfect and you're not going to be, it is important to talk about that and talk candidly about that. So we'll see how Sherm moves on from here and how it's local chapters work and all of that. But the trial has happened, the trial has ended, and now it's on to appeal. I just really want to give a shout out to Ashley for staying on top of the Sherm trial and like literally spending hours and hours going through the court documents and spending money too. You know, like pacer, every page she looks at costs money.

So if you want to Venmo her some money, do it. Maybe I should start a GoFund me. I don't know. But Ashley, you are the goat. We appreciate you. I would say am I shot of the Shirm trial verdict? Not really, to be completely honest. I mean, when you read over all the information and hopefully you've listened to our HR Besties episodes on it, Shirm was in the wrong.

And that's what they got, okay? Also, you know, I've gotten a few DMs asking why I haven't done a video to cover it. And truthfully, I just don't feel the need to, I guess. And why is because, you know, I started Humorous Resources back in 2020. because truthfully, I was an HR department one and I was so lonely and it was the pandemic and things were changing so quickly and I just felt kind of like I was losing my mind, but also I didn't feel like SHRM was providing me resources that I could actually use to keep my employees safe. And that's kind of where it grew for me. And I've been trolling SHRM ever since then.

And so if you followed me for any bit of time, you know that. I actually had a comment today on a video that I made months ago about, wait, if not Sherm, who? And you guys, I'm still shocked that HR professionals don't know SHRM as an organization. And just Google, just Google, y'all. Also, just go watch. I have a bunch of videos and a whole playlist on TikTok. But yeah, my thoughts on it is ever since Johnny C. Taylor became the CEO, I believe, was in 2017, and he created his own certification program, it has felt like a money-hungry organization.

And I just don't support it. I was once a member of SHRM, but I am no longer, and I haven't been for quite some time now. And I just feel like there are definitely other resources out there for HR professionals. and just because the largest one, or maybe the first one pops up is Shirm doesn't mean it's the best. And I think this verdict clearly shows that. So thank you, Ashley, so much. We love you. We appreciate you. Thanks for listening, Besties. All things holiday in the workplace, dues and don'ts of the holiday party. So, Lee, you want to kick so? Absolutely. I do. Because for the HR professionals out there, which I'm just going to

make the assumption, maybe is the majority of the crowd, who knows, right? You work in the space of people. Oh my God, I'm so sorry. But I think we have all had that experience with some sort of repercussions from a holiday party at work. I mean, like, I'm not personally. I'm just saying, like with your workforce, right? Like, we all have some stories to share. And so from a adult perspective, right, just best practices is don't mandate attendance to your holiday events, right? Because then everyone's going to show up. And that means all those that don't behave within your workforce as well.

Like don't mandate it. Don't pressure people to show up. There are some business I've worked at them before where it's like you have to show up, you know, like the pressure from the boss or whatever. Everybody is different, right? There's neurodivergent folks out there. There's folks that are like extremely introverted like myself. Oh my God.

Please do not mandate the Christmas party. Like if I feel like the vibe is good, like I'll be there. But if my vibes off for that day, like I'm out, you know? But please do not base my promotion on whether or not I can spend another five hours with folks on my Saturday. You know what I mean? So please like don't. I think that's a that's absolutely a don't.

don't mandate attendance to a holiday party. I mean, are we an agreement on that one? Agree. I think a lot of times, too, HR is the people that have worked insanely hard to create the event, right? So in a lot of my career, I've been an HR department of one. So probably I've been planning for months, weeks, you know. And so I have to be there. And I'm busy.

So I can't like enjoy, I can't even enjoy a, of wine while I'm there because I'm running around making sure we have service awards or the boss knows the CEO's speech or the drawing or the bonus or so that's I mean it honestly the holiday I've never had fun at a holiday party simply because it's usually a stressful event for me. And can we not put it on HR? Thank you. Can we not put it on HR? I mean because I've had to throw parties before myself but what I did was I put a team together. Like I want representation from every function and make it like a team thing. So there's ownership and accountability with the business, you know. But man, it sucks, always having to be the party

planner. It's not a, it should not, it really isn't a skill set. Like if just because you, you happen to be, you know, masochist as we, as we've talked about and take on and try to navigate those things, both the open enrollment, but also dealing with the people issues, does not mean that you're necessarily good at talking to the people or showing up to the restaurant. And also the thing is, some people have, you have kids. And all of a sudden, this night out, look, the going rate, I don't know what happened in the pandemic, but the going rate for babysitters is quite significant. But Lee, you want to, you want to flip us to the next do or don't? Yes, yes. Well, you know, one of the dues is that you should recognize that this isn't the happiest time of year

for everybody, right? Like the three of us, we love the holidays, right? But, for some not so great. So again, I'm going to go back to don't mandate a holiday party. Don't believe everyone believes what you do, right? Really put that D-E-I-B hat on, but just be cognizant of that. That some people are really, really suffering at this time and do not feel like a party. And not to sound grinchy, because I love a party and y'all know that. I do.

We've seen your stories. I'm just glad, like, the internet wasn't really a thing, like, when I went to college. you know what I mean like I can't be president I already know that there's too much documentation but thank God like I'm not a student now because that would have been oh my God that's horrific but yeah I can't there's no way I can be president sorry I just had like a thought about that but anyways do keep your pants on do keep your shirt on because I've had both of those not me you well no not me no not me what about my hat.

And I'm just, I'm just saying, you know, people get wild. They can, right? And then there's always after parties. So maybe a don't is don't attend the after party, especially if you're a leader. Yes. That might be good, you know, because that's, that can come to bite you. You don't tend to regret drinking too little or staying or leaving too. early but on the flip side the others that tend to lead to some things i see james yeah people love to

get loose people love to get loose over the holidays any other dues and don'ts any other dues and don'ts uh just love to hear you recognize everyone's hard work for the year that's recognize your employees appreciation thankfulness i love it well and one thing with recognition is i've talked a lot to organizations that think about recognizing sometimes people hear recognition or they hear terms like that and like people in business are like, oh, that's awkward. Like, I don't know what to do. So putting it in your language or one of the tools I talk about is, um, is like using

chat GPT. ChatGPT is not your diary and it's not an encyclopedia. So you don't want to put personal information in there. But if you're in leadership and we're saying recognize, recognize your team members and you're thinking, how on earth do I do that do that go into chat GPT to saying like, this is my general role and what are, like, a few different ways. I mean it, but like, don't copy, like, Luke would absolutely copy and paste that. But thinking about ways to put that, you don't have to be so formal, but doing it in the ways

that are authentic to you. I think it's important, too, about recognition is you need, you should already know how your team wants to be recognized to. So, for instance, I think that's something that you need to ask everyone on your team immediately to get to know them because I, what if I do not want to be publicly? recognize. And then you called me out in front of a room full of 500 people. I would be mortified, right? But I do love it. But if I, on the flip side, you know what I mean? There could be someone who wants to be publicly and you instead privately recognize them. So I think that's really important

too. That sometimes it really is a simple, hey, thank you for going the extra mile. But just make sure you know what kind of recognition that your team wants to receive. Yeah. No, I love And, you know, to kind of segue, because this is all things holiday workplace, right? Besides just the holiday party, there's all the work events during work time, right? So the appreciation lunches, the team lunches, team dinners, the the swag gifts, the potlucks, like all the things. I know the secret Santa's in the office. Oh, I hate it. Like all of the things, I'm already having a reaction to all of the things that are happening.

Yeah. Our thoughts on just all of those holiday activities in the workplace. You know, for me personally, like I love to celebrate. I really, really do. But what I have observed in my HR career is that I think that a lot of those activities make people more uncomfortable than they, actually enjoy them. Does that make sense? Like, make that make sense. You know what I'm saying? Because so many people, especially even now versus earlier in my career, they have more boundaries

with work. They try not to perhaps get too close to folks or they stay professional or whatever, you know? And so for them, even I just have folks that hate recognizing their birthdays at work. They don't even want people to know their birthday month, right? So, like, what's the boundary there, you know, between like, you know, team building and togetherness and belongingness and then, you know, doing all of these sorts of activities there? Like, how do we balance that in the workplace? Jamie, you want to kick us off? I would say, once again, that's one of the first questions that I typically ask, like intake, new hire, is do you want your birthday to be recognized dietary restrictions? I mean, this is just being, you know, HR for the last 20 years.

What kind of recognition? These are things that should be asked day one, actually before day one, before they even get in. So you as a manager knows what your team member needs, wants, and how you can react to that for anything, not just, you know, team member dinners. But also, too, like, I have young kids. I always feel guilty saying no to things, like a night vent, and I shouldn't have to because I have young children. And so I think, you know, once again, when we were 20, I'll go to a happy hour and I'll sling back a couple, but I don't, I can't do that now. You know, I got to get home. I got to pick up kids, daycare closes at a certain time. So it's just being mindful of your staff

and who they are and kind of meeting them in the middle. And, and, and, and, you know, and, having those events at work. I prefer to have events at work because you're getting paid to have said events. And then you're not being spoken like a true extrovert. You're not being hauled told to be, you know, at happy hour down the street at 6 p.m. when daycare closes at 6 p.m. Ho, ho, ho and happy holidays, besties. We here at H.R. Besties podcast, wish you and your besties a very, very merry, happy, cheery. of 2025 and an even better 2026. Gosh, we need one, don't we?

This is our year, which, of course, I've been saying for the last 10 years, but that's okay. Now, things are so busy over here with H.R. Besties podcast, that we are going to take a little break at the beginning of next year. Not to worry, there are tons of episodes out there for you to listen to. on repeat, and we sure do appreciate it, don't we? They say it's good to be busy. I don't know who they are. But for me personally, I am, oh gosh, just knee-deep, even maybe hip-deep in editing my first book back and forth with HarperCollins business. It is getting there, and I am so thrilled

and so excited. Passion Project, Labor of Love, but we are getting. getting this book to just the best state it can possibly be in for you all to help with your career success and even success in your personal lives. So I hope you enjoy that when that comes out. And ladies, what are you up to next year? It's going to be a busy one. Happy holidays besties. It's your girl, Jamie Jackson. I know Ashley mentioned we were unfortunately unable to get together with our conflicting schedules to actually provide you a new episode of all of us together. So you're getting us all, like, peace together thanks to our amazing producer, Carle. But I really wanted to take a minute, really, just to thank you guys for being here.

The last year, it's been an incredible year for the HR Besties, and we really appreciate all your support and cheers to 2026 and seeing what HR Besties can do. I really feel like this year we've made a huge difference, disrupting, the HR community. And it's kind of been incredible. I hope that we have made you feel less alone. I know that's why I created my meme pages like back in 2020. And I was so glad Ashley texts me back in 2023 and said, hey, would you want to do an HR podcast? Because I think it actually is needed. And HR is a really thankless job. And I don't think people realize what all HR can do for a company and, you know, that we're not necessarily bad. We're just very villainized

because sometimes we have to hold people to policies and standards. Like, sorry, but also not sorry. Anyway, I just really appreciate it. Keep liking and sharing our posts and commenting needs the world to us. Where you can find me, you know, as you guys know, I'm unemployed. and unfortunately I've become unemployable. I have found applying for jobs during this time that no one wants to hire me because of my social media and my podcast. Hey, look, I get it. I get it. Stupid, but what else?

Okay. So I am trying to do this social media thing full time. So really the best way to support me right now is following at the underscore chief meme officer on Instagram. And if you don't already, follow my meme pages. I have humorous resources, millennial misery, parody parenting. They can all be linked on any one of my accounts you go to. And also I have merch.

And you guys, the merch doesn't pay out a whole lot. However, it is a huge creative outlet for me. And I've so enjoyed creating new merch. And my merch is available in T-shirts, hoodies, hats, mugs, stickers. But that truly helps too. That link is on all my pages as well. and, of course, hire me, like speaking engagements, please, because no one else will. I kid.

But I love you guys lots. Thank you for being here. And here's to 2026. I hope everyone can find some time to have a relaxing holidays. And thank you to those that are working in roles that support a lot of people are open to the public on days when other people are off. That's not easy either, whether you're in HR or any sort of role. I'd love to say I'm going to have downtime, but I actually have my own book.

coming out in February of next year, February 2026. It's being published by Hayhouse and it's called the manager method. You can go to at manager method.com, my social media. You can pre-order it. We even have bulk orders. Feel free to send me a message. If you're looking for a bulk order, happy to connect you to make sure everything goes well. But I'm really excited for that to come out. So I've been doing a lot of work to start hopefully getting the buzz out. I'm still running my manager training business, Manager Method. We're growing and have all sorts of cool new things coming in 2026. So I'm really excited to keep growing that. I've loved working with organizations that come from H.R. Besties listeners. So feel free to come to manager method.com and find information about the book.

You can also find information about our leadership platform and all the cool new things that we have there. And I hope you do. Have a very relaxing holiday. We cannot wait to share with you our special projects and all that we are working on. Definitely continue to follow H.R. Besties online and follow us all. individually as well to keep up to date. Cheers and happy New Year's!