HR BESTIES - HR Besties: The Overlap Between Customer Experience and Employee Experience with Max Farber

Episode Date: February 19, 2025

Today’s agenda:  Introducing Max Farbsy, CEO of Customer Service It's not personal, John Cringe corporate speak: synergy Hot topic: the overlap between employee and customer experience What can we learn from customer experience? How does it relate to employee experience and satisfaction? Why Max is our customer service expert Sticking to the script vs. finding your voice in customer service as well as in the workplace Authenticity and empathy is key in connecting with the customer It's OK to say "IDK" The key to building and maintaining strong teams is to treat your employees like you would your customers (yes, it really is that simple) Questions/Comments  Your To-Do List: Grab merch, submit Questions & Comments, and make sure that you’re the first to know about our In-Person Meetings (events!) at https://www.hrbesties.com. Follow and Support Farbsy!  @farbsy on Instagram and TikTok Merch Store: https://farbsy-shop.fourthwall.com Follow your Besties across the socials and check out our resumes here: https://www.hrbesties.com/about.  Subscribe to the HR Besties Newsletter - https://hr-besties.beehiiv.com/subscribe We look forward to seeing you in our next meeting - don’t worry, we’ll have a hard stop! Yours in Business + Bullsh*t,  Leigh, Jamie & Ashley Follow Bestie Leigh! https://www.tiktok.com/@hrmanifesto https://www.instagram.com/hrmanifesto https://www.hrmanifesto.com Follow Bestie Ashley! https://www.tiktok.com/@managermethod  https://www.instagram.com/managermethod https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleyherd/ https://managermethod.com Follow Bestie Jamie! https://www.millennialmisery.com/ Humorous Resources: Instagram • YouTube • Threads • Facebook • X Millennial Misery: Instagram • Threads • Facebook • X Horrendous HR: Instagram • Threads • Facebook Tune in to “HR Besties,” a business, work and management podcast hosted by Leigh Elena Henderson (HRManifesto), Ashley Herd (ManagerMethod) and Jamie Jackson (Humorous_Resources), where we navigate the labyrinth of corporate culture, from cringe corporate speak to toxic leadership. Whether you’re in Human Resources or not, corporate or small business, we offer sneak peeks into surviving work, hiring strategies, and making the employee experience better for all. Tune in for real talk on employee engagement, green flags in the workplace, and how to turn red flags into real change. Don't miss our chats about leadership, career coaching, and takes from work travel and watercooler gossip. Get new episodes every Wednesday, follow us on socials for the latest updates, and join us at our virtual happy hours to share your HR stories. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello besties. Gosh, we have a meeting crasher joining us today. Oh my gosh, someone from the department down the hall. Welcome Max Farbzy. Hello. Hello. Happy to be here everyone. Thank you for having me.

I know the department down the hall is just down the hall, so I'm happy to be here, everyone. Thank you for having me. I know the department down the hall is just down the hall. So I'm happy to happy to be here. Sorry to crash. I mean, who in corporate wants to attend more meetings? Like if anything, I'm trying to escape from meetings. And yeah, here is Max trying to get into extra ones like you have a bingo card. Are you getting a bonus? Do you not have a bingo card? Shit. Because if so, you got to get on it. Everyone's doing bingo these days. So.

Love bingo. Oh, once again, HR is not included. Of course. But if you do not know who Max Farbzy is, where the hell have you been? Now, I'm going to take just a second to share your bio, Max, because he took the effort to send it to me. Okay? But Farbzy is a content creator, musician, and professional over-thinker of

everything. Shout out to anxiety and ADHD. Samezees. Whether he's amplifying the pains of 9 to 5 life, writing songs about the stress and potential bragging rights of parallel parking, or channeling his inner Dr. Dolittle talking with dogs and cats about their problems. He's always finding new ways to make people laugh. And boy are you at Farbsy people like follow now, pause, put this on pause, go follow, follow, follow. Max, we just adore your content. Thank you so much. I adore all of you guys.

Your content gives me life. So all of you. We're like life givers. It's so great. It's a love fest. Oh, gosh, but we are so thrilled to have you here with us. So thank you. This is your first time crashing our meeting. So I just want to give a quick agenda. All right, let me let me just do a quick rundown of the agenda for everybody. So you know, we can stay on schedule. Jamie has a hard stop.

Yes. I'm very busy. She's so busy. Oh my god. But first things first, we always start with some hot goss, OK? We love that water cooler talk, right? We had to do the bullshit small talk.

This is business people. This is corporate, damn it. So we're going to do some hot goss. And that is brought to us today by you, our meeting crasher. I know. Yay. I know, right? And now you have also been voluntold to bring the cringe corporate speak today. You're responsible for that too. Look at what happens when you're a meeting crasher. You get all the work.

And then we shift pivot to our hot topic of our meeting. And that one today, because of your expertise, is all about the overlap between customer experience and the employee experience. Sexy, oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Oh yes, yes. Love, love, love, love. EX and CX. Oh, love it. And so we'll

turn that inside out a little bit. It won't be so heavy. We'll have some fun with it. But you are a service expert. That kind of sounds bad. But we would love to get your insights and of course share a few of ours. And then as always, we end our meetings with some questions and comments. So we may have some questions for you, Max. I don't know. I'll be ready. I have a question for all of you, so. Oh, yikes.

So start thinking about it. Oh, I hope I have answers. All right, well now Max, over to you. Like share that hot gossip, what the hell's going on? Okay, so this is probably one of the most stressful situations I've been in in a working environment because my life is filled with stressful situations outside of work, but this is my go-to.

And I don't know if I've ever shared it with any of you, but I'm gonna share it now because honestly, at the time when it happened, I was like, I was going through it, I was not having a good time. Looking back now, I can relive it very easily. Do tell. I used to work for a company that will remain nameless. It was a job that I really did like. I enjoyed some of the people that I worked with. The other ones, you know,

were other people who happened to be at that place. you know, were other people who happened to be in that place. Now, for context, when I had my interview to get this job, the people who were hiring me, my boss and my boss's boss, they were the final stage of the interview. They told me, they said, hey, we know about your page and we love it. We think it's a great creative outlet for you. Keep doing your thing.

And I said, really, you have no problem? They said, not a problem. We love it. We think it's a great creative outlet for you. Keep doing your thing." And I said, really? You have no problem? They said, not a problem. We love it. It's so you. You know, it's authentic. Keep doing your thing. Amazing. I worked at this company for a grand total of, I think, seven months and at the midway point of my time there, I got a Slack message from my boss and it was an Instagram link. Now, there was a big social media presence in the company in regards to like what the job entailed. So I thought that it was work related. So I click on the link and you can imagine my surprise when it's not something that had to do with the company I worked for but it was it was a video of me. It's me. I was like, hey, I was like, who's this handsome son of a gun?

Oh my god, and then as I started's me, I was like, hey, I was like, who's this handsome son of a gun? And I'm like, oh my God, and then as I started watching it, I was like, wait, something's probably not right here because I don't think my boss would be like, hey, this video's really funny, how's your day going? It's a banger. Right, I've never gotten that. Would never get that from her. And also for context, my boss's boss's name is John, okay?

Very common name. John Doe, John Smith. It's like the most, probably the most basic name I could think of. Yeah, like my son's name is John. There you go, no disrespect to your son, but you know. And the video was one that I posted like years ago, which is me being like,

hey, here's a really easy way to get out of a boring meeting. And I have a voiceover where I go, hey guys, you know, with the fiscal year coming up, it's probably important with Q4, yada, yada. And then I go, hey John, you know what? I actually don't give a shit, so I'm gonna head on out. And that's the video. It is 12 seconds long, I think.

And I'm watching it and I think to myself, this is pretty good video. I'm watching it and I think to myself, this is a pretty good video. I've struggled with this one. And my boss sends a message afterwards with the link and she goes, hey Max, I have some concerns about this video. And I'm like, okay. I'm like, so let's see where this goes. And she goes, I'm just a little concerned because A, you're using John's name, which you know is a bit a

bit much, but B, you're referencing the fiscal year which is something that we talk about in our marketing meetings, so it just feels a little bit on the nose. Okay. I kind of like froze for a moment because I couldn't tell honestly if they were joking. Like a part of me was, is this some sort of like, am I getting punked? Like, is Ashton Kutcher just going to pop up on like the Zoom chat and be like, we're bringing it back and we're doing, we're like, punking some random dude from Toronto who works at this company. Like, what's going on here?

In no point of this message was she saying you need to take this video down. So I wasn't going to offer because the video the video was doing very well and I was very proud of it. I thought to myself you know what I'm going to give the diplomatic response. So I send back a message that says hey thank you so much for bringing this to my attention. In regards to John's name, as I'm as I know you are familiar with my page so you would know that I use the name John very often It's a very common name Purely coincidence it has nothing to do with your boss my bosses. It has nothing to do with him

Second in regards to the fiscal year Literally the whole video is just about boring corporate jargon and the first thing that comes to mind for me And I'm sure for many others, is fiscal year. Because what even is that? And why is it not the physical year? I call it the physical year for so long and someone's like, you're saying it wrong. I'm like, don't fucking sass me.

I know what I'm saying. So at the end of the day, it's purely coincidence. However, I wanna thank you for bringing this up and I will be way more cautious moving forward." Wow, that is corporate. Which I thought was probably one of the best. Who needs chat GBT? Chat GBT was not around. I was about to say. I've always prided myself on knowing how to handle annoying professional situations. And I was very proud of that message. And my hope was she would be like,

thank you so much. Let's get back to work. And she goes, Max, thanks for saying that. But I'm going to need you to take the video down and refilm it using a new name and scenario just out of respect for John. Wait, what? Fuck, John. for John. Wait what? Fuck John! That sounds like a brand agency sponsored video with their refilming. Yeah right so my thought process was okay like I really don't want to do that but I was talking with my wife Kelsey and she said you know what I love you but if you don't take that video down they will fire you.

Of course. They're not gonna say it's take that video down, they will fire you. Of course. And they're not going to say it's because of the video, but they will make some sort of reason that sounds legit, that you know isn't, but the real reason will be because of this video that is really funny, but strikes a chord with them for all the wrong reasons. And I was thinking to myself, why is John not saying something to me? So I kept thinking maybe, well really two scenarios here. Either A, John has seen the video but isn't, I don't know, man enough to just message me and say, hey is this like about me? Which it wasn't because I had literally no problem with the guy. I still don't.

It wasn't because I had literally no problem with the guy. I still don't. But the other option was he hadn't seen it and my boss didn't want him to see it because she thought that maybe it would become a problem or she thought that it would like, she was essentially trying to put out a fire that hadn't even started burning. Yeah.

And never would burn, you know? So I ended up taking the video down. I was pretty upset because I felt really good about it and I don't like taking down content that people relate to, regardless of if someone feels called out or not. Like, who gives a shit? You know? And my boss was like, she goes, I know that your page is your own page, but as long as you're working for this company, you represent this company. Which was funny because no one ever fucking knew that I worked there because I never thought a gosh darn soul. I'm still working corporate and I run into this

issue. Like I don't even have my current company on my LinkedIn. Like I go through great links to protect the company. Yeah. And I knew from that moment on, I could not trust anybody that I worked with at that company. And I knew that they were going to try to find a way to get rid of me. And did they? I got very lucky because I ended up finding a different job. And right as I found the other job, the company got bought out by essentially their competitor. Oh. And everyone said, oh, are there going to be layoffs? And they said, company got bought out by, essentially, their competitor. Oh. And everyone said, oh, are there going to be layoffs?

And they said, no. No, no, no, no. No major changes. And then a month after they got bought, I see all these people on LinkedIn who I know from working there, like, oh, I'm so excited to announce my new position with a totally different company.

Yeah. Yeah, they're like, I've been laid off, but you know what? What we lose in one job, we find in another, and I'm so excited to announce that I've been promoted. All this LinkedIn corporate jingle jangle. Yeah. It was wild because it was just so weird to be targeted, in a way, which feels a bit dramatic to say.

But I had a meeting with John. This is a couple weeks after that initial fiasco and he goes, hey, do you have time to chat? Which I hate. He's like, oh, you free? You free to hop on a quick call? I'm like, sure John, like is he gonna fire me? Like, I don't know. So we're chatting and he goes, you know, Max, he's like, the reason I want to talk to you today is about your channel. And I'm like, great John, what the fuck did I do now? Did I use your name again? Are you embarrassed? What's going on? And he goes, I'm just concerned about some other employees here. And I'm like, how so? He goes, I don't think that everyone understands it's a comedy page.

Oh my God. Well, then you've hired a bunch of idiots, John. I mean, what the fuck? Welcome to social. Literally. And I just kind of look around and I go, John, how is that my problem? That has nothing to do with me. That's clearly something that they need to figure out.

And he goes, well, I just think it's a little bit too relatable. I was like, John, if you want to I just think it's a little bit too relatable. I was like, John, if you want to give me a compliment by all means, just say you like what I do on this page, it's not a problem. And I told him, listen, if anybody has a problem, I'm more than happy to chat with them and let them know that this is purely a comedic page. It's not inspired by anyone or anything. It's just relatable workplace humor. It's that simple. And if anybody is looking deeper into that, that is on them. They're like, but could you add a label? Could you add comedy page, not satire, not representative of our company, but don't name

the company? Could you just add that to the top of your page? Like, yeah, sure. The legal disclaimer. Here's my thought process on that. If people have that in their bio, I think they still work in some sort of nine to five corporate jobs, so they just are covering their bases, which is fine.

But I also, for me, I never did anything like that because I trust people to know that at the end of the day, it's probably just comedy. Although a lot of people do email me asking if I'm hiring because I am the CEO of customer service. I get resumes. I get LinkedIn pages. That is so funny. Yeah. I think about that job and I think about that specific day when I got that Instagram link and I opened it up and saw my face. I think about that very often.

Fringe, I have a quick question. Have you now since refilmed the fiscal year, John? Because I think you have to. So I did. And I basically kept it as similar as I could. I think I ended up using gym instead of John. And I used, I'm trying to think, I can't even remember what I used instead of the fiscal year. I probably said the physical year. Caesarian, the Caesar calendar. Exactly. And the video crushed. Of course, of course it did. It crushed. So it was kind of like poetic justice

where I was like, I should believe in myself more often than also fuck you guys. Like in what reality is fiscal year proprietary? I know. I mean. It made me think, does she think that we're the only company that Like that has a fiscal year because for the sake of every other company ever. Yeah Oh my god, it honestly shows the level of so much fear at work and especially she's the one bringing it up

She's so afraid of getting on it from her boss. And when people do that, they do crazy shit Yeah, that doesn't make sense to the third party that's looking at it, but there you go. Tales old as time. Oh my gosh. Good times in corporate. Right? Pinkies out. Cheers to that.

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You know, for texting and stuff. And if you're not getting rewards like extra data and dollars off with your mobile plan, you're not with Fizz. Switch today, conditions apply, details at fizz.ca. Well, appreciate that hot goss, Max. Shall we shift gears to cringe corporate speak? What do you got for us? Okay. This word, anytime I hear it, I feel like the Canadian in me, and I'll explain, thinks about hockey when I hear this word,

because I'm pretty sure it's a brand of hockey sticks, that is this word, and that word is synergy. Oh! Synergy. When they're like, oh, like, we have great synergy here. Yeah. Like, really tight synergy. Just say you work well together. Just say you have a good working environment. Like I would almost prefer someone say let's circle back, which is like the most basic common one. But hearing synergy and especially hearing it being said seriously is like, like who are you trying to impress? Like you didn't win a Pulitzer Prize or anything like that. You're

not like, it's not fancy. You don't have to be saying this word. Just say like, oh, like everyone communicates really well here. We have a great rapport. I do enjoy the word rapport. Rapport is a much better word. You know? Synergy to me is just, ugh.

Literally like I said, it's like seeing a cyber truck. You know, you just kind of see it, you're like, ugh. Yeah. Like what the fuck? Like, oh my God, can I buy those things? Can you say that? Like, what? Ugh.

Excuse the egg. So synergy is the one that just, as they say these days, it grinds my gears. Oh, it's like trying too hard. Basically. Right. I mean, that's kind of what it is, right? Like, oh. If it's used sarcastically, then that's fine.

But when it's used in a serious... Rarely is. Rarely. Well, it's also a bad word because, like's fine. But when it's used in a serious... Rarely is. Rarely. Well, it's also a bad word because, for example, when a company is like, we're not going to do layoffs, they didn't have layoffs, they had synergies. And that is a word that organizations will use, especially if they're acquiring another company. Really?

Absolutely. Oh, absolutely. I've never heard that before. Yeah. I've never heard that. That's awful. Yes. Those that there, I guarantee you, there will be people in the podcast and they'll say it. There's like, they're going to be synergies.

And what you mean by that is, of course, if one company acquires the other, there's going to be duplicative systems. Like the idea is to like make things run better. Rarely, rarely does that happen as people think it might be in, as it looks in a PowerPoint deck that gets approval. But people will also say there's going to be synergies, which means layoffs as well. That is a code word to be very spidey sense for. This is news to me.

I did not realize it was used in that context. That's fascinating. Yeah. It's gross. It is. I need a change. Oh, God. I know, right?

I need a tower. Oh, man. I need it even more now. Oh, but I love it when I hear synergistic or we're going to start working synergistically. Oh my God. What does that even? I know. It's like just add a Lee on the end.

What? What? How? Wait, what? I know they make it even like more cringe as if, you know, you wouldn't have thought that was possible, but oh. Truly. They'll find a way. They'll find a way. Well, I laugh when you said there's a hockey stick company. You have to wonder, is that one

of those things of someone that had been in corporate and they're like, get me out of here. I'm going to start something new. I'm going to start a hockey company. And they're like, I'm going to name this. I'm going to live my passion. I'm going to name it after the haunting my dreams. It's very possible. I'm trying to think if it's the name of the company or if like the company has a stick called the Synergy because I do know that Synergy has something to do with hockey sticks. I'm getting so Canadian right now. As I apologize. I'm sorry.

Sorry. I was hoping the topic of the podcast would be Canadian versus US employment laws, but nobody else voted for that, of course. Oh God, no thanks. But I remember some of the first times I started doing employment law for global companies and was supporting teens in Canada. And if you're in the US and you think that California is like, ooh, the Wild West with lots of laws and things like that to figure out,

hoo hoo hoo, Canada, between Canada overall and the different provinces. And like, I mean, it's wild. You can have, it's actually a great place at times to get synergized because you could at times have like a severance agreement that's like, you'll get four months of severance. Like in the US, people would be like, oh my God, that's so generous. In Canada, they'll be like, I don't think so. Like the judge or tribunal, whatever, will be like, you deserve, like they will sometimes literally like just look and they'll make an assessment.

They'll be like, but you deserve 18 months. Canada really is a totally different working style from like the protections and all of that thing. So if you don't know this and you're listening, Canada is very, very protectionist for employees, a lot of support there. That's what we do. If you're doing business there, get you some counsel. Like get you some LNE counsel for sure. Ooh, gosh.

Oh, Canada. Our neighbors to the north, love y'all. So if you are playing along at home, try and use synergy and piss everybody off in your life today. Just try to sneak it in there. I know Jamie's going to sneak it in today. Ashley, you already scored a point. So you're ahead of all of us there. TD Direct Investing offers live support. So whether you're a newbie or a seasoned pro, you can make your investing steps count. And if you're like me and think a TFSA stands for Total Fund Savings Adventure, maybe reach out to TD Direct Investing.

Shall we pivot to our hot topic? Keep this meeting moving here with our crasher. Well, today we are talking all things overlap between CX and EX. Oh, sounds super sexy. But customer experience and employee experience, right? So what can we learn from customer service strategies, right? How does a culture of service impact employee satisfaction? Like everything under that umbrella, you know,

of customer service and customer experience, and how it relates to our impacts, employee experience and vice versa. We're gonna turn that thing inside out. How are you an expert of customer experience, Max? Well, I've worked in customer service for a very long time in multiple different fields, whether that's call centers or retail. Retail was really where I kind of like cut my teeth. Is that the term when you cut your teeth? Yeah. So I've been around the block and I've

experienced it in many different fields, many different areas and it's just It's a lot of it's the same but a lot of it's kind of different depending on What you're selling and who you're helping who your clientele is I find being in retail. It's everyone You're gonna get every walk of life that comes into your store because everyone wants to buy a pair of jeans You know, but not everybody needs hearing aids I used to sell hearing aids over the phone, which is so weird to say out loud. Like that sounds like such a terrible business model. The company was called what?

Like, how does that even work? Well, so it was actually like a pretty interesting way they set it up. People would fill out a very brief survey and then we would be the ones to reach out to them. So we would kind of be calling these survey, and then we would be the ones to reach out to them. So we would kind of be calling these customers knowing what, having a pretty good idea of what it is they were looking for. But hearing aids, I don't know if you guys know

about hearing aids, but they're fucking expensive. They're really fucking expensive. So a lot of the times, the reason that people would not move forward and then they would get upset is because these are so gosh darn expensive. The most basic pair at minimum, prices have probably changed now, but when I was working there, the minimum was $2,500. $2,500 per year. Are you talking about Canadian dollars? What's that exchange rate?

This was usually in American because I was working here in Toronto, but I would be dealing mostly with American customers. So the funny thing is, a lot of people, when it came to filling out the survey, they would fill it out on behalf of someone else. So a lot of people could fill it out for themselves, but I'd be dealing with a lot of older people who aren't really familiar with computers and technology in general, which is totally fine. So they would have someone do it on their behalf, and then I would call that person, but they would be like, who are you?

Maybe like you filled out a survey for like Grant who needs like a hearing aid. He goes, oh, he's like, yeah, that's my dad Okay, I'm like well, I'm like listen like here's what we can do for you and I'll give him the whole spiel We had a whole script. It was like a two and a half page script that I would have on my monitor That's off to the side here. I would just like follow it. I'd be like, okay, so tell me about this. And with hearing, I would be looking back and forth just trying to follow it as carefully as possible. And most of the time, like eight out of ten people would cut me off halfway and say, okay, I just want to know how much these things cost. Yeah. Which is entirely understandable. And I go, well, you know,

when it comes down to it, I think you're looking at this amount of hearing loss, so we would recommend this price, which is looking at about $2,500 per ear. And most people would just hang up. Oh, wow. Yeah. I'd worked in sales before last one. I remember having scripts, and on one hand, it's really nice to have those because, like, in, well, in most situations in work and life, you just like someone to tell you what to say specifically in that situation. But also you, you have such a good like rapport and things like that. When did you eventually, especially in your roles, feel like you found your voice and could like relate to people?

Like you do come across as a very nice and genuine person. And I have to imagine that's very welcome, especially for someone that's like trying to get help for a family member. And so how did you how did you think to balance that about like stick into the script and finding your own voice? That's a really good question. I think I really honed in on my voice at that job. I think I found it working in retail to be quite honest because I was just having face-to-face interactions with people where I really have to be on it all the time because you never know Who's coming in but that's like That's a really good question

I'm gonna sign out now guys. I'm gonna leave the meeting It's been great thanks for synergizing you out Yeah, I mean I don't know I think I try to be as genuine as I can because I never Like especially when I was doing customer service and with sales specifically, I never want to pretend to be someone else I think that working in customer service in any form or sales When you have to pretend to be someone else or try to like not be yourself I feel like people can really see through that.

And even when I'm not working, I'm all about just being as genuine as I possibly can, you know, because that's how you just connect with people. That's how people like feel better towards you because they just enjoy someone who is just there to have a good time and really be their best self. So I feel like that applies across the board to any job in customer service. Just really being honest. If you're too honest, that could bite you in the ass sometimes. But I think just keeping it real and kind of showing them, hey, I'm human.

I think a lot of people who call into customer service employees, I think they kind of forget that they're talking to a real person. Yeah. And that becomes a problem sometimes. So I've had to say to customers in the past, I'm like, sir, just so you know, I am real. I've had to say that. And they'll go like, yeah, I know that. Do you?

Yeah. Do you? Because I don't fucking think you do. Well, I think you've made a really great point there, right? That one of the lessons that we can take from customer service, and it's focused on the customer experience, is that authenticity is important, right? And so we as business professionals, leaders in corporate managers, you name it, for the employee experience to maximize that and to make that a positive one, you have got to be authentic and real and genuine with your people because that's respect. It really, really is. I mean,

if you don't have an answer, say, I don't have an answer for this. Or share that, gosh, times are scary. I agree. I'm scared too. Right? I mean, all of that, right? That genuineness, that authenticity, that empathy, you know, that is so important to carry over into your workplace culture, right? And treat your employees that same way where you focus on customers in that manner.

I think something just to keep going with that is I think a lot of customer service employees, especially when they're starting out, I think they're afraid to say they don't know. And really, I feel like that applies for so many jobs. People are, people want to come off as knowledgeable, which is totally fine and totally understandable, but I think people need to become more comfortable with saying, hey, I'm actually not sure. I don't know. And like that's something that I've always been very aware of. When I was starting with with the hearing aid company, when people were like, oh, like, well, what about, they would ask me a question that I didn't have the answer to. It wasn't in the script. It wasn't anywhere that I could find a quick answer for them. And I knew, deep down, I was like, it's okay to say, I don't know. And sometimes people will be like, okay, no worries. Well, like, do you know when I can like, is there someone I can talk to? Do you know how I can find

that out? Most people will understand. And if I've been at a company for a while and I still don't know how to answer their question, I'll just say, listen, it's actually my first day, so let me get you in touch with one of my coworkers who can actually help you with that. I love that so much, and I agree fully. Like, as you were saying, I think the same thoughts that Lee did, and I think I saw, like, the pop on Jamie's face, but a lot of this is about being human, and I think one thing that I hadn't thought about it

as much from, like, the customer service, customer support aspect, but you are such a, like, nameless faceless, like, you are customer support. I know HR feels the same service, customer support aspect, but you are such a like, nameless faceless like you are customer support. I know HR feels the same way because people are like, I'm going to reach out to HR. IT feels the same way. Finance like frequently you are this like, you know, this person and people want you to be perfect and have the answer.

But then if you're able to relate and you use their name and talk, talk to them more, be like, you know, I don't know, let me figure that out. The ways that you can relate to people, it can open up and change the perspective of people that, and I do think that both of those are really common across those. So I love that as an example. I love saying I don't know. In fact, I typically say, hell if I know. Like I do not know. But then I always do the caveat of, but I will be relentless in getting you that answer. I mean, I'm not going to be relentless. I'll be like moderate.

Yeah, I'll ask. I will travel to the ends of the earth to make sure that we get to the bottom of this. I would. Another good tip for people who don't, if they still don't feel comfortable saying, I don't know, another good way to say, I don't know without saying, I don't know is I'm not 100% sure. And I don't want to tell you the wrong thing, right? Yeah, I don't want to give you the wrong information. I care about you. And it's a lot of it is like putting people right at ease. Exactly. I hate being bullshitted. And you can tell when you're being bullshitted, right? I mean,

people making stuff up. Oh, gosh. You can read right through it. Whether you've worked in customer service or not, when someone is just lying to you about a policy or anything like that, you can read right through it. Whether you've worked in customer service or not, when someone is just lying to you about a policy or anything like that, you can tell. Yeah. I mean, I think people are scared of saying, I don't know, because they fear they may be terminated, fired, there be repercussions or whatever, but there's more if you make up bullshit. Yeah.

Especially with a lot of calls being recorded with, you know, Gong and stuff like that going back. You don't want to have to like explain yourself like, oh, like a boss being like, why did you say you don't know? Do you not know this? And then you get grilled for something that maybe you should know. But, you know, it's it's stuff like that. That is so important because I think one thing is for organizations across the board,

thinking about your values and how do those come to life? How do those come for customer support and service? But even that, if you're trying to get people to learn, it is an area so much, if you then come down on them every time they make a mistake, like they're not getting erased, they're not getting promoted, they're getting totally dinged. It's only going to make them more afraid. Yeah, this is where I mean, I think we really need to push and focus on empathy, right? And understanding and putting ourselves in other people's shoes, right? So that we can be supportive of others so that they can develop, you know, because again,

when people feel unsafe, they're paralyzed, they're not going to get their best performance, that's for sure. Pretty, pretty shitty. It creates a real culture of shit. So if we do care about that employee experience and customer experience, we'd be wise to not be dicks. Forget the culture shift. We're talking culture shit.

Exactly. Drop the F. I love that. I love that. What else, Farbzy? Max, what do you think? Any lessons for our audience on customer experience that can relate just across the board? Just remember whenever you're talking to a customer service employee, that is a real

person you're talking to. And a lot of people are like, oh, you're going to get replaced by AI. I don't think so. I don't think so. AI can't call you a bitch. But really, I think it's so important that people remember that at the end of the day, people are just trying to help. And it's people having a conversation and whether you're frustrated about a charge on

your credit card, or whatever it is, it'll get fixed. There are bigger problems, you know? It's not worth spending your time yelling at someone who literally is just trying to help. And another tip is, I've never done this, but a friend of mine was like, you should like, you should do this, is when someone's yelling at you, whether it's in person or over the phone, in just a very calm voice, just respond to them and say, are you okay?

Because the tonal shift, especially when someone's yelling, just hopefully will make them realize that they're kind of being a bit much, you know? And really, I just think it's important to, at the end of the day, remember that we're all human. You know, humans make mistakes, whether it's, you know, at your job or just in life. Shit happens. That's really not a whole lot we can do about that. But you're talking to real people about problems that aren't as real as you think they are. So remember that with your coworkers, too.

It is so rare. In my 20 years in HR, it is so rare that I've come across someone that intentionally was wanting to do a bad job, right? Like, I've had some people that were... What would we call them? Like, traitors, you know what I mean? Or, you know, someone like really trying to be subversive in the workplace. Saboteur.

Saboteur, there you go. That's the word I was going for, Ashley, ding, ding, ding. That is so rare. I can count on one hand. Typically, people really are well-intentioned. They just don't have the information, the tools, whatever. Again, that understanding and kindness, that patient support goes a long way.

Remembering they're human, they don't know, just like you didn't know, you know, one day. And the nicer you are, the more inclined we'll be to help you. Exactly. Like if you're just a nice person, first off, we'll remember you. And second, we will genuinely want to help you.

And same goes for HR. And I, you know, I always have said this in my 21 years is HR, we are essentially customer service for employees. And so that's where the same thing, if you approach me cussing because your paycheck is 10 cents short. Like, you think I want to help you if you're cussing me out? You know what I mean? Like, do people complain about that? Is that a thing? Yes. It is a real fucking thing. I've been cussed out over a dime. You know what I mean? Like just approach with more like curiosity. That's what I usually do. Like I always like, I'm curious. She plays dumb. Yeah, no, I love to play dumb. Why are you such a bitch? I'm so curious. I would like to know. That is my MO is to play dumb.

Like even when I usually know I play dumb because it works in my favor because I'm, you're not automatically on the defense, right? But yeah, I mean, I think that's the line between, you know, we really, HR is there to provide support for the employees. And that really essentially is like a customer service feature for our employees, but it's the same line. And you know, all these businesses promote customers, customers, they're always right, or the customer comes first, but they don't have the same respect for their employees.

And you know, I've mentioned this before on the pod, right or the customer comes first, but they don't have the same respect for their employees. And I've mentioned this before on the pod, but I worked for hospitality years and years ago at Marriott and one of Bill Marriott's quote was, if you take care of your employees, they'll take care of the customers and the customers will keep coming back. And it's just so true. I wish more people just realized the full cycle of their employees and not even just customer service, right? Just like taking care of employees and it really builds a culture that people want to be a part of.

It's so basic, but brilliant. 100%. Right. I mean, it's so obvious. So why aren't we all doing that? Why aren't all businesses realizing that? How you treat employees, guess what? That's how they then treat your customer. Duh. Oh my God. Right. They'll look focused to like the revenue or there's no, they even talk about

treating customers, thinking about not talking to call center. How do you train people on that? And then the employees, it really is. So people listening, and we'll have this in our newsletter, we always have a newsletter, Max. So we listening, and we'll have this in our newsletter, we always have a newsletter, Max. So we will say all the nice things about you or not. We'll tell if you're reading it by what we say in the newsletter. It's fine, I'll go fuck myself, it's fine.

But it's thinking about if you're focused on revenue, all fine and good, that doesn't happen by generally a magic wand. And so you think specifically about, and and I agree starting with employees and then filtering that to customers and prepping people for the conversations they may have. I do think works wonders. Yeah. And if you're not using the term employee experience, like in your workplace, start like I would, you know,

language is powerful, right? I mean, you start using a term like that. And that encourages people to give a shit about what they're experiencing, and the environment they're creating, and the vibes they're giving out to their coworkers. All the things, it all works in tandem, which then, guess what? Affects their performance and how they treat your customers. It is so basic. It's just embarrassing that we suck at that like in so many places, you know?

Oh. Something I think would be great is having a customer service purge day where maybe like once a month or once a week that might be pushing it. You just either get to, you know, beat someone up that you don't like, or ideally you just get to say whatever the hell you want to a customer. I feel like that would just be so great for employee morale. We would just be so much more relaxed. We would have that moment to say,

oh, you know what, I can tell this guy to fuck off and not get in trouble. Yes, I have so many people I'd wanna tell to fuck off. Yeah, may need like a special retreat. Not just a little meeting every month, but you need to go away for like a week and just let it all out, you know? The shushed, the shushed, and that's where the shushed, the shushed, shushed. The shushed, exactly.

Oh, I love it. Gosh, we got some badass insights there. Anything else, y'all? Shall we go to questions and comments? Let's start with you, Farbzy. Any questions or comments? I have a question for all of you. What do you think is the most important question to ask in a job interview? Regardless of the job, like what's something that is like a universal question that you should be asking in every job interview

that will really stand out? Like the employee should be asking to their... That the employees should be asking, yeah, to the employer. I always really like when people ask about culture. Like obviously I'm saying it from my point of view, but I really enjoy when I'm doing the interview to someone and someone asks me about the culture, maybe in the company or that particular department, because I feel like you can really get an idea of what the company's like. Because obviously not everyone's going to be super honest, but I feel like that answer, you can really break it down and go, oh yeah, I don't want to be a part of that company. I get that.

I've got two, but I'll make them brief. I can't choose which one. I love to ask, how are decisions made here? That's a good one. Because I can't be micromanaged. Oh, I'm hard to tame. And so that's going to give me a lot of insight on the amount of bureaucracy and bullshit that I may face.

And then I also love to ask something about communication. So that's very important because communication is really culture. I won't explain, like, Google it. So I'd like to know, what are your communication processes? How do you communicate with employees? How often? Frequency? All of that, that's really important to me because that would symbolize a company that gives a shit about informing employees and people understanding goals and purpose and mission and all the things that come with comms.

So probably those two, I always ask something along those lines. I like to do something that also can help you as a candidate, but to say, I've looked at your values, and those actually really matter to me and knowing how those come to life. And so like picking a value, like whatever it is, because sometimes to say like, what does that actually look like for your team and working with others and it shows like you're doing your homework and also you can say it in a way that's not like, you know, kiss up. And so I think bringing that in real terms. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. What's wild is like you ask a values question, like, oh, that's one of our values.

I know. Like literally. When they don't even fucking know the values. Yeah. Well, that's going to be it for me. Well Max, thank you so much for being here. This was fucking epic. Thank you so much for having me. The synergy here has been fantastic. Yes, the synergy. Yeah, that's so good. Lee, thank you so much for inviting Max.

That was such an amazing idea. Kudos to you. I mean, I don't know if he invited as much as he just walked down the hall and saw that we had good snacks, but he said it's fine. Exactly. Well, thank you so much for having me. Honestly, this was so much fun. We adore you.

If you're not following Max again, at Farb Farbz everywhere we appreciate you. Bye besties!