HR BESTIES - The Tough Talks

Episode Date: December 13, 2023

Let's start this episode of HR Besties with some gratitude and love for YOU as we wrap up season one. Then we'll get into the meat of the agenda: difficult conversations in the workplace. There is a need for honesty, respect, and empathy when addressing sensitive issues, such as personal hygiene or performance feedback. And you need to stick to facts and not make assumptions during the tough conversations. Of course, we have some personal experiences including telling an employee about their body odor and asking another to stop collecting scabs at his desk. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, besties. Thank you so much for joining us for another episode of HR besties. Before we jump into our staff meeting, we just want to say thank you so so very much for an incredible first season. We had an awesome first season because of you, your support, your likes, your shares, your follows, your listening, you name it. We are so grateful that you're here. Now, if you didn't have the opportunity to join us at our live holiday event, I wonder if that's perhaps a special bonus episode we should release next week. Tis the season, right? Happy holidays. Talk about an awesome year in bonus.

Now let's get this meeting started because as you well know, we have a hard stop. Ashley, can you kick us off by running through the agenda? Sure. So we're going to start with the cringy corporate saying. Lee, if you're going to want to kick us off on that, and then we'll transition to our main agenda item, which is our hot topic on difficult conversations. And we'll have Jamie pick that up. Jamie, who has a hard stop when the meeting's scheduled to end. And then why don't we reserve some time at the end for some questions and comments? How's that sound? That sounds fantastic.

All right. Well, you want to kick us off with the corporate saying? Absolutely. So cringy corporate speak, right? One of my personal favorites, and by favorites, I mean I absolutely loathe it, is low-hanging fruit. Have we all heard that one? Yes. The low-hanging fruit. Oh my God. I used to do this kind of snarky thing where whenever somebody would say low-hanging fruit, I'd always say something like, yeah, the fruit's just on the ground, isn't it? Oh my God. Yeah. We just got to pick it up, right? We just got to pick up that fruit. Somebody grab a basket, right? So we can get

a bushel of this shit here in the workplace. With grapes, please, so I can stomp on them. Exactly. Yeah. So low-hanging fruit. And why don't we just for fun try to work that in to our staff meeting today? What do we think? Great. All right. A little challenge for us here. We'll try to work that in.

But Jamie, kick it to you here for the next agenda item. Today's meeting is going to be about difficult conversations at work. Yeah. We've all had probably more than we'd like to share difficult conversations at work. By difficult, do you mean the conversations that nobody else wants to have? So they let HR go ahead and take those? Yes, a thousand percent. Okay. They kick it to us. Yeah. Okay. So other than terminations, I would say the most difficult conversation that I've ever had is when you have to tell an employee that they smell.

I would rather drink an entire bucket of bleach than tell someone that they have body odor. How many times have you had to do that one? Honestly, more than I care to share. Yeah. I've only got a handful of those. Really? Yeah, that's it. It's funny. I've also had to tell someone that they use too much cologne too. Flip side, the allergies, the flip side, the scent, wafting through. He was a server and he would literally douse himself in I think 12 sprays. And I had to sit

him down and be like, man, when people are eating their French fries, they smell your Hugo Boss. And that's just not enjoyable to them. But that one was just as hard. Yeah. It's hard to have those difficult, honest, radically candid conversations in the office. And I don't know about you all, but the reason why, of course, that always lands on HR is because the leaders, we don't equip them, right? We don't develop the leaders and coach the leaders to be able to do some of those, right? A hundred percent. And plus, when they do have those conversations, they completely mess it up. So it's going to come to us no matter what, right?

Because at some point, at least in my experience, a leader, they get so frustrated. They're just like, you steak. It's like, whoa. Yeah, yeah. Whoa. They say nothing. Take them out to dinner first. Yeah, yeah.

They just get so frustrated. You know, the leaders also don't think about like the cultural view of it, too, because in some cultures it's just different than the United States. So you got it. There's a really fine line you have to walk. Yeah. When you're telling someone that they smell like shit. Oh, my God. This was an area that was not fun to be legal in either, because then people get real hung

up on the legal aspect. And you have to think, like, what is this? Can we tell someone that they smell? Can we have this conversation and say, well, it's a lot better to talk to somebody than by God talking to me and everybody else you're sign texting with it about. That's the problem. It's like I had literally had to tell a man to wash his ass his ass. Okay. Let's role play that conversation, Jamie. I'd love to hear how you have that conversation. I just walked up to him and said, wash your ass, sir. No.

Right. No, but let's role play. Okay. I think people would love to hear that because that's one I think people like, how do you have that conversation? So Jamie, if I am coming and everybody has been talking about me, and I don't know this because people are doing it at just the low volume enough that I haven't heard about it. How do you have that conversation with me? So I called this gentleman into my office. I said, unfortunately, I brought you in here today because we had to have a quick conversation about a complaint from several individuals about your odor. And of course, this man has no idea what I'm talking about. Meantime, I'm already getting teary-eyed from the smell in my closed office door because

I can smell this man's ass. Your eyes are burning like onions. Yeah, terrible. And the worst part is completely flying over his head. He has no idea what I'm referring to. And so I'm trying to be very tactful in every word that I say. And he's like, I shower every morning. And I'm like, that's great. Do you use soap? Like, what am I, you know, like, and then I'm realizing he's not getting into his crevices. And it's not like I can show this man how to wash his ass. I mean, I probably could, but that would be a little weird. I know. Yeah.

So then it's like, yeah, not approved. Yeah, we do frown upon that. Yeah. Yeah. So when the conversation got deeper and deeper, it was discovered. Yes, literally. It was discovered that he didn't get into the nooks and crannies. How did you discover that?

I'm so fascinated. What's the line of questioning? He literally was like, I shower every night. And so my literal comeback in my head was like, do you use soap? I didn't say that to him, but I was like, okay, and we soap up? And he's like, yeah, but he would just rinse his body, he said. Oh, I would just rinse my body. Yeah, he just does a whore bath, basically. Yeah, literally. He's just using a Pampers wipe. Got it. I'm like, oh, okay. Well, you know, like, probably at least once a day, you could like,

you know, soap up a rag. There's these things called washcloths or like maybe a loofah. you know, soap up a rag. There's these things called washcloths or like maybe a loofah. They make beautifully smelling body men's fragrance. Yeah. And actually at this particular place that I worked, we kept a small closet of toiletries, actually mostly to give away to clients because it was like a lower income and whatnot. And so I gave him some men's body wash. Well, you know, what's fascinating is that I've certainly learned in my career is that you have to meet people where they are. And again, what is so just phenomenal about that is that you may have been taught something by an adult, a mentor, a parent, a teacher. So many others have never been taught that one thing.

A hundred percent. And so I've had so many conversations in my career, very similar to that. I haven't had the dirty ass one where you literally describe like how to wash clothes. A hundred percent. Yes. How do you put the soap into the machine? And I'm not kidding. I'm not being ugly or snarky, like literally teaching people life skills. You make the assumption that, well, this person's 50 years old. Surely they know how to do these things. They do not. You know what I mean? They absolutely do not. And think about yourself. You would not

have known until someone took the effort and time to teach you these things. And so that's happening every day in the workplace. Do not make assumptions that people know how to be because they do not, right? They do not. Another one that I discovered was that someone, also a cultural thing, never had used deodorant before. And they weren't entirely sure where on their body they were supposed to put it. And it's like no one bothered to show them, but people were bitching behind this person's back that they smelled. Well, that's what I say frequently is I'll say people, because frequently the person that comes to you that's complaining about it 100%, they aren't just talking to you. They've talked to everybody else and talked. So what do we do about this?

Like it makes me so uncomfortable. And so sometimes it's flipping that around and saying, well, how do you think, how do you think they would feel if they knew everybody was having this conversation? And the one question I frequently, when it has, is any topic that's difficult, I'll say to people to say, how would you want to be treated in this situation? And people will say, well, I wouldn't, I'm not, I'm not, all of us, all of us have things, whatever it is, people have something they want to tell you and it's difficult to have. But how would that feel if you knew people were having that conversation away from you and think about how you can have that conversation and talking to that person. And again, like I've, I've seen, I've had employees exactly in that situation with horrible circumstances, like maybe an employee who was, who was widowed and they just hadn't done these things. And so a lot of it is having that dignity. And that's one area that I think, again, everyone hates HR until there's a conversation that someone needs to have. And some people in HR, despite their title, do not know how

to have those conversations. And maybe they've been brought up through payroll and all those things, have never had the training. But the silver lining to the random stuff that we will talk about all throughout the pod is that you have this empathy and are able to frame it to say, you have no idea what's going on in this person's life, but you are not making it better. I'm glad you're talking to me now. But the more you talk about it to other people, and sometimes it's having that conversation and walking down that path and saying, I'm sure it's uncomfortable for you. But think about how it is for that person and how important it is to really show them that

they're human. They're still a person. Absolutely. One thing that I always coach my leaders on is, hey, respect is honesty and honesty is respect. You're doing that person such a disservice when you do not treat them with dignity and respect by giving them the honesty that they need to be successful in the workplace. So whatever the difficult conversation is, right? And so it's definitely something, you know, to preach in the workplace that, hey, remember, how would you want to be treated in some scenario if you had freaking a booger hanging out of your nose all day? I mean, come on, you know what I mean? Like, have the difficult conversation, you know, so that person can be what I mean? Like, have the difficult conversation, you know,

so that person can be successful, right? It's hard. And that also goes with feedback in general, right? I mean, first of all, like when you get to your performance review, whether it's once a year or semi-annually, it should never be a surprise what's in there, right? Absolutely. So feedback should never be a surprise. So those difficult conversations, unfortunately, you as a leader have to constantly be having. And they're not fun. But as long as you're acting with radical empathy, you can get through them. Ooh, radical empathy. So I am so curious.

What is one of the most difficult conversations that you all have had in the workplace? Mine was having to tell that man to wash his low-hanging fruit. It's the dirty ass one. Yes. I love to see what I did there. Well done. And we thought Jamie would be the one to forget, but you remembered. Look at that.

I love it. God, the fruit's on the ground. I know. When I hear low-hanging fruit, I kind of think about what the sad fruit is at the bottom of the fruit salad, like the honeydew or like the sad grapes. Oh, the heavy ones? Yeah, like just kind of hanging out there. It's like squishy. And the juice.

And the juice. And it smells real quick going into lunch. So that's the low-riding fruit there. Yeah. Oh, man. Yeah. Oh. So that's the low-riding fruit there.

Oh, man. Yeah. Oh. I mean, I think sometimes the conversation is somebody that thinks that, I mean, I do think, that thinks that they're doing a really good job and they really aren't. And you have to explain exactly why that's the case. And it's when the tears start coming. Oh, yeah. And what I hate is when you're talking to someone, and I hate when people apologize at work for anything i'm sorry if this is a stupid question i'm sorry i'm crying what are you sorry you're human yeah i try not to apologize don't and i

and so it's that chart that's so helpful that's like instead of saying i'm sorry saying thank thank you thanks for your patience or whatever exactly like that which is which is is but it is such a transition of thought but sometimes sometimes it's disappointing to one again who thinks that they're about to get a promotion or the person that thinks they're getting a promotion. And all of a sudden they're put on a performance plan. Completely misaligned what their expectations are, but that's their boss that has not set those expectations. Because to the point, a termination of employment should never, performance feedback. It should not be a surprise. None of that should. But when you have to have that conversation and people get so emotional and they get so upset, so upset by it. And I tell people frequently, whether it's having Kleenex, and every manager, every HR should have Kleenex on their desk and should have that.

But meeting people where they are and saying if something is a surprise, this should not have been a surprise. And I wish I could change that in the past, but I can't. I can change that moving forward. And explaining to managers why that's so important. And they both come running, right, to HR, the employee who's now been slighted and they just can't believe this. And it's a hostile work environment now all of a sudden. They said this to me three years ago. Let me tell you what they did after hours of this bar three years ago. They've been holding on my back pocket for this moment.

And it's the battle of the yous because if a manager is saying, well, you haven't done this. Let me tell you who's coming back with that point. That employee is like, well, let me tell you where you have failed, sir or ma'am. And then the manager comes running in too like like, oh my God, I messed up. And you're just bracing yourself. What did you do now? Right? It's probably a frequent flyer, but it's like, oh my God. What's next? What's next? What did you do or didn't do? Right? The sponsor of today's episode is HelloFresh. After a full day of work, I know when I get home, I just don't want to cook dinner some nights. Some days it feels like eating a decent meal

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That is one breakfast item per box while your subscription is active. That's one free for life breakfast at hellofresh.com slash HRFREE with code HRFREE. I've had, and some of these I share on my HR manifesto, you may have seen some of these. I mean, I've had probably like thousands of really hard conversations. And, you know, for better or for worse, you know, it's one of those areas in my career where I became kind of known, like the professional brand perspective, right? I became kind of known as the person that could have this type of conversation.

And the second that gets out, oh oh my God, right? Now I'm having conversations for everybody. I'll give it to Lee, right? She doesn't mind, you know, but I'll tell you one of them, and this is actually my first TikTok because, you know, I'm an OG on the TikTok. That's my platform. My first TikTok was about one of the most difficult conversations I've ever had in the workplace. And it was a shop floor employee, material handler, who was at a shared desk. So he's a second shift guy, I think it was. And he's rotating. Someone's always in that desk, depending on the shift.

And he had this obsession with saving his scabs. And so in the top drawer, and I'll never forget the desk. I mean, it's just burned into my memory. In the top drawer, the right-hand drawer of this desk was a cute little Kleenex, a little napkin. Cute. It was cute. A pile of skin, just a pile of bloody scabs and skin. I think he had, you know, some sort of skin condition. I don't want to make any assumptions. Oh, a little bit of vomit. Yeah, just a little bit of vomit.

But he was saving this skin. I don't know what the hell he was going to do with it. Make a skin suit. I said skin doll or something. He was working on some project. A little top hat. Yeah, he was very creative. But, you know, he had this.

And, of course, you know, the other employees in that that was using that desk. But, you know, he had this and of course, you know, the other employees in that that was using that desk, right, you know, had come to me like, what the heck is going like, you know, so no one wants to have that conversation with the employee. So of course, it's me, you know, the green one, the junior one who just doesn't shy away with that. And it's, you know, it's definitely for me kind of my strategy for having these hard conversations is to bring the employee somewhere that's neutral. A hundred percent. So I don't bring them to my office and I don't have the conversation in their office. I would do kind of like a neutral space or conference room or something like that.

And it is just being incredibly factual. Right? Yes. And so, you know, I have seen at your desk in the top right-hand drawer, you have a pile of skin. From a FOD perspective, this is manufacturing, right? What's FOD? FOD, foreign object debris. Like, we don't want anything to get into the things we are... Cringy corporate speech. I know, exactly. We don't want, you know, this stuff that you are producing and saving in what we are trying to manufacture. Thank God it wasn't food. Could you imagine?

Oh, my God. Yes, I can. Yeah, that's definitely happening in food, right? But, hey, can we not? Literally, can we please stop doing that? Can you save that collection for home? Exactly. In your car.

No, legit. I was like, hey, do you want to bring in a little baggie and, you know, collect that and you can save that and maybe keep that baggie, that Ziploc in your pocket. Like a freezer bag, not a sandwich.

No, yeah. Like a thick, thick layer. Exactly. Like a vacuum seal. Yeah, you can do a vacuum seal. Not the off-brand, like the legit. No, yeah, the good ones.

Like the real kind. Yeah. With like the three lines to seal it. 100%. Turns purple, 100%. But besides being FOD, this actually is a health concern, you know, here in the workplace. So we want to make sure that we maintain a safe environment for all, right? You're having like just that kind of practical sort of conversation.

But I legit think of like solutions for people. So I never say like stop or don't or no. I never say no. Like I'm think of like solutions for people. So I never say like stop or don't or no, I never say no. Like I'm always like, help me understand. Like I ask all sorts of questions. But in that conversation, how did he, like when you spoke with him at his level in a seemingly very basic conversation, but one that's so hard for people to have, how did he respond? He's like, oh no, I can do that. I could put it in my pocket. Oh, great. Yeah. And see, just boom. Yeah, but better, you know, so he's going to save that and put it in my pocket oh great yeah and see it just boom yeah better yeah but better you know so he's gonna save that and put it in his pocket i wonder how his collection is today

he is no longer with us uh you know tmi but uh yeah rest in peace may he may he uh in all his collections maybe he was buried with his scaps oh dang but seriously but you but like literally what you laid out, it's so often it's like this basic conversation but people are like, Lee can have this

and it is that comfort level. Of course. Because where people go wrong is they get nervous and they will also go to assumptions like, I don't know what you have going on.

I don't know if you have a skin condition. Oh, yeah. I don't know. Do you have an underlying disease? And this is people's natural and they just start talking. So that is why having.

Because they're so awkward. Totally. It's incredible. Totally. It's incredible. But again, stick with the facts. And then just asking someone about the solutions. Yeah.

Don't make assumptions. And that goes for every time you have a difficult conversation is stick with the facts. Do not insert feeling. And I always coach leaders about that. Don't insert feelings. Stick with the facts. If you need to make yourself bullet points in an email, if you need to make bullet points on a Post-it note, stick to your facts, not feelings. Yeah.

Or assumptions. Yeah, don't personalize it. Don't personalize it. I believe this person is an alcoholic. Well, tell me why that is. Yeah. They have been late in assignments. I smell alcohol. Well, I guess I'm an alcoholic,. Well, tell me why that is. Yeah. They have been late in assignments. I guess I'm an alcoholic too.

I had alcohol. Call me. Why are you making the diagnosis, doctor? You do not know that. And all of a sudden, you are also then creating something about that. And now lawyer hat, Ashley, is having to put that hat on when you can talk about the basic aspects. And so people can jump to these broad conclusions and then they want you to solve their challenge for them. Oh, gosh. All right.

Well, I am so glad that we were able to tackle this hot topic in today's meeting. Thank you so much for staying on topic, just for the record. Like I promised, I wanted to save room at the end for any questions or comments. So let me just open up the floor. Does anyone have a comment or a question? Again, we have a hard stop. Sure, I do. Ashley, take it away.

I kind of wish my name was Curtis because then we could be Jamie Lee Curtis. Oh, my God. My Uber driver was Curtis yesterday. Shout out to Curtis. Oh, it's a sign. God. It is a Shout out to Curtis. Oh, it's a sign. God. It is a sign. That's a sign. That's a sign. I literally had Curtis. Oh, Jamie Lee Curtis. I love that. That's an awesome comment.

Not a question, but a comment. I like turtles. You like turtles. You know the skeleton boy? The zombie boy? Oh my God, that's a millennial thing. I am. Damn it. See, that one's not going to hit. You know. Someone out there knows about turtles and that skeleton boy.

It's an old viral video. Come on, somebody. No? Okay. But I saw in the elevator that before a mouse was called a mouse, it was called a turtle. Computer. I meant to point that out to you. Oh.

Not a comment, but a quick question from me. Does anybody else pack for business travel as though they're going to shit themselves five times a day? Because I don't know about you all, but I pack five times the underwear that I need. 100%. Why do I do that? It's like that meme that's like, how many French horns do I need to pack for this trip? Three or four, like you've ever played the French horn, you know?

I love that meme. But literally. Yeah. Oh, I'm going to be gone for two nights. Better pack eight packs of underwear. No, that's literally eight pairs for me. It's like this thing where it's like, I want to have more clean underwear when I get home than dirty ones.

Like, what is that? Yeah. Well, they need to be nice ones just in case anything happens to you in the middle of the night. Didn't anyone ever tell you that? What, in case there's a fire and they find my body, I have to have a thong on? Oh. I mean, that's, I mean, or just generally.

What if you sleep naked and there's a fire in a hotel? Well, you put the robe on. Don't do that on business travel then. Oh, valid. Just in case, but no. Okay, so that does resonate. Okay, all right. So I, but no. Yeah. Okay. So that does resonate. Okay. Okay. All right.

So I appreciate the comments and the questions here. I'm glad that we were able to end on time. Thank you so much for joining us on HR Besties. Again, Ashley. At Manager Method. Jamie. Humorous Resources and Millennial Misery. And I'm Lee, aka HR Manifesto. Now, if you have a quick second between your meeting sometime today, we would absolutely love if you could

subscribe, if you could follow us all on social, and if you could leave a review for this awesome, awesome staff meeting. Thank you so much again for talking a little business and BS. you