HR BESTIES - Toxic Leadership (and how we survived it)

Episode Date: April 10, 2024

Today’s agenda:  Listener submitted story Cringe corporate speak: Chain of Command Hot topic: All things toxic leadership PTSD and trauma from toxic bosses is real What can HR do? "Toxic" is subjective, but nonetheless never worth the trouble Questions/Comments  Your To-Do List: Grab merch, submit Questions & Comments, and make sure that you’re the first to know about our In-Person Meetings (events!) at https://www.hrbesties.com. Follow your Besties across the socials and check out our resumes here: https://www.hrbesties.com/about.  This episode is sponsored by SixFifty - https://www.sixfifty.com/ and head to sixfifty.com/besties for more information. We look forward to seeing you in our next meeting - don’t worry, we’ll have a hard stop! Yours in Business + Bullsh*t,  Leigh, Jamie & Ashley Follow Bestie Leigh! https://www.tiktok.com/@hrmanifesto https://www.instagram.com/hrmanifesto https://www.hrmanifesto.com Follow Bestie Ashley! https://www.tiktok.com/@managermethod  https://www.instagram.com/managermethod https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleyherd/ https://managermethod.com Follow Bestie Jamie! https://www.millennialmisery.com/ Humorous Resources: Instagram • YouTube • Threads • Facebook • X Millennial Misery: Instagram • Threads • Facebook • X Horrendous HR: Instagram • Threads • Facebook Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

My big fat Greek mistake. I think that's what we're going to call this. This was actually a story sent in by an HR besties listener. Okay, so they were working in a global organization. And they're in the US. In the US, CHRO, Chief Human Resources Officer, had a group of colleagues visiting from the Greek office, including the Greece CHRO, some other colleagues.

And so they wanted to host at a local bougie Greek restaurant. You know, they don't have enough foods to bring them to that inauthentic experience, fair enough. So the US CHRO wanted to have other employees come and join this dinner. Well, nobody volunteered because the US CHRO was misogynist, racist, asshole, so nobody accepted. But this is in the story.

None of the HR staff was like, no thank you to this dinner. So this CHRO says, I'm not going alone, so he calls a meeting with this person's boss, the DE&I director and I. In the following is 100% the conversation that happened. CHRO, U.S. Can you pull a list of employees that have Greek last names? I want the Greek CHRO and their staff to feel at home and invite employees that are Greek too. Full stop. Yeah, well yeah.

So the DEI director and this person look at each other and then the CHRO. Our listener said, uh, I don't mean to answer your question with another question, but however, uh, could you please define what a Greek name is? US CHRO. Well, I'd say anything that ends in cos, os, loose, you know, maybe Google Greek last names and see what comes up. D.E. and I director lady is dead quiet. Not in her head though. Not in her head. She's like, holy shit.

This listener, God bless her. Mr. CHRO, respectfully, I don't feel comfortable doing that. It's subjective and makes broad assumptions. Me, at the DEI director person. Perhaps you'd like to share your thoughts on this? She's trying to bring in the conversation. CHRO, well, do we have a Greek employee resource group that can help? Oh my gosh. DEI director lady. I'm glad they even know what they

Know we don't have a Greek ERG CHRO well, this wasn't helpful. I'll figure something out And that's our story out. And that's our story. And, oh, that sounds about right. Yep. I mean, tale as old as time, right? I think the most disappointing part of that story is that it's a CHRO and not a CEO. I know. What are you thinking?

Google Greek last names. Wow. Yeah. So yeah. So confirming, I do believe the statement that they were probably a racist, misogynist, a lot of ists. A lot of ists. Ists last names with that CHRO. They have all the isms. And this is why we have the question of like, what the...

Yeah. Uh-huh. People be peoplein'. But you know what's funny is you may be sitting there like, oh, that didn't happen or oh, that's not a common thing. What's funny is that I was with an organization and they were throwing a big training and they brought in a bunch of employees from Asia. And they're like, well, let's plan the dinner.

Hey, I want to take them to, this is one of the executive leaders, very high level HR. I want to really treat them to their food. And so let's take them to the best Chinese restaurant I know. You know where they took them? P.F. Chang's.

P.F. Chang's. P.F. Chang's. P.F. Chang's. And all the Asians at the table were like, what the fuck is this? Oh my god. Sesame chicken. What the fuck is this? Like literally they were like, this isn't our food.

You prepare this the same way in your land. I don't. I don't prepare it. They were like confused. They were like, what is this? And they're like, it's Chinese food. And they're like literally Chinese. And they're like, this is not what we eat.

I do love a P.F. Chang. I haven't had it in years, but I do love a P.F. Chang. I love P.F. Chang. I love P.F. Chang. I love P.F. Chang. I love P.F. Chang. I love P.F. Chang. I love P.F. Chang. I love P.F. Chang. I love P., this, this is not what we eat. Yeah. Which I do love a P.F. Chang.

I haven't had it in years, but I do love a P.F. Chang's. But yeah, I mean like what? Why do people do that? Do not. That's just my rule of thumb. When someone is visiting from another culture, don't take them to their food. They have their food. They do it the best.

They do it the right way. Not do it the wrong way. The Americanized version. Well, right. So either ask, what was their type of cuisine your team likes that you'd like to try, or just pick a nice restaurant that's just an objective across the board restaurant.

Do not try to bring global things. We want to show you the real American experience. Let's go to, you know, no. Applebees. Chili's. Yeah, chili's in the airport. Nothing wrong with that. Make sure you go for five. Chili's too. Five, four, four to six.

I got Chili's too. Two for one Brutus time. Please. But no, there's, I mean, those things happen across the board on like, you know, oh, women, you know, oh, we need a woman for this. So we have a woman candidate and so we, oh, it's an all male team. Should we have a, should we have a woman, should we have a woman from this. So we have a woman candidate. So we, oh, it's an all-male team. Should we have a woman from some other function come and interview them just to... What?

Well, it's funny that you mentioned that. So you know about last season when we did Dave Ramsey's bousal dinner? The amount of DMs we received in the HR Besties pod, and my personal DMs on humorous resources, well, I guess they're not personal, but was, oh, yeah, we did that too for this company, or you know, and a lot of times it was women for these high level positions that they had to invite their husband. And I'm like, no, absolutely not. My husband would be like, fuck no, I ain't going. Yeah.

The meal interview is such a... I get so stressed out because I get shit on my shirt. Oh yeah, y'all saw me last night. Yeah, it's true. Drops. Anyway, so that was it. So thank you for that story. I'm sorry for that experience.

And I hope that is not your current, HR, I'm gonna assume not. Crossing fingers, crossing fingers. But don't we love a little hot gossip from the water cooler? So keep those stories coming, people, because we would love to share those, whether on the podcast or on our social, at HR Bestie's pod, please follow, like, share, all of that fun stuff. But thank you so much, HR Besties pod. Please follow, like, share, all of that fun stuff.

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Kraken's registration details at kraken.com slash legal slash ca dash pru dash disclaimer. Let's go ahead and dive into our meeting for today. Let me do a quick run through of the agenda. So we will start with our typical cringe corporate speak and Jamie is on the agenda for that one. So she is the owner for that today. And then we'll transition into our hot topic,

which is all about toxic leadership, which is definitely a fun topic for me personally. I talk a lot about toxicity in the workplace on my HR manifestos, but all things toxic leadership will be the hot topic. And then of course we will close out our meeting as we always do with some questions and comments. Yes.

So Jamie, kick us off. So, our cringe-corporate speak for today is chain of command. Yeah. And I think it's not necessarily what it is. It's the way it's used. So it's writing people up for not following the proper chain of command. And it's like, is chain

of command another military phrase? And so what chain of command means, right, is if I'm your boss and you one up me. But truthfully, if you need to, by all means, please do. And maybe I'm different in that aspect, but I don't know, what are your thoughts on chain of command? Yeah, well, there's just another military reference to your point and something that you're right and something that you could think of maybe stereotypically as very masculine as well, right? And like kind of this more aggressive language in the workplace, you know, and so that that always is it to me, you know, because there is like this lack

of inclusivity in a way when some of those particular cringe corporate speaks come out. But again, you know, corporate, although it is tough, we are not on the front lines. We are not at war. Hopefully not. We're about to talk about toxic bosses. We are in the HR trenches. Exactly. Oh, and that's another one. We're in the trenches. Oh, my gosh. I'm guilty of saying that. Ah, yeah, yeah. But it can feel like that, you know.

But that one, it does have some of that ick there, you know? Yeah, I agree. I think it's the way... Yeah, using the military reference, but the way it's used, because it generally means, you know, you're talking to someone's boss, or you're talking to someone else. And I think there's a human instinct that if someone reports to you and they have a concern or they have a question, like, you want them to come to you.

And if they go to someone else, I think it can feel on that human aspect, like, why? Why wouldn't they come to me? And so some of that as a manager, I mean, it's really important to enlighten to managers and we'll get into this with toxic leadership, but is this idea of opening those conversations and being proactive and showing employees that they can bring? Because if someone's not bringing that to you, that might mean that they feel like they can. Other times someone just might be convenient.

But so just reminding managers as well and meeting them where they are to say like, you know, you may have questions, but just make sure that you are approachable and know that if people are comfortable going to others in the organization, that's a good thing for the organization because that means that they know who people are and they think that that person will also be a resource. But if you as a manager don't like that and want someone to come to you, then be a resource for them and be approachable and maybe they'll be more likely to. Yeah, I don't think it necessarily is a bad thing if you go one above me. Maybe let's say I'm out of the office or I'm busy with something

and you want an answer or you need an answer right then. Like, I just, I think it's, sometimes I feel like it's a little petty. Yeah. When someone's like, well, you didn't. Now, if it's something that's like it's a little petty. Yeah. When someone's like, well, you didn't. Now if it's something that's habitual that you're constantly skipped, then you probably need to have a conversation with your direct report. I do think and maybe this will just lend right into the toxic leadership point.

But I think some of this is if someone, you know, if you someone on your team reports to you and they want to set up a meeting with a boss above you and they're not having that conversation with you, I do think it can be odd. If it's just like a work meeting. Oh yeah. And so there are people in the workplace that I think don't realize that. And they think like, it's helpful for you as an employee to let your boss know if you have concerns about your boss and that's why you're having that conversation

completely differently. But if it's a general career conversation, like I'd love to have this, and so we'll talk a bit about skip level meetings. And what that is, is your employees meeting with your boss or your boss's boss, but people meeting, and skip level's kind of a corny, skippo card game. But it can be a good thing, but for managers, frequently they get defensive.

Well, what's this person gonna say to my boss? Let me, what are you gonna say? Like, oh, why do you need to talk to them? Like, you should be coming to me on these things. And so it goes with that chain of command, but it's making that experience all about you as a manager and how you're perceived. But in healthy organizations and departments,

it is a great thing for you as a manager to proactively set those times up. It's probably not gonna be every week. Maybe it's once a quarter Maybe it's you know, whatever that looks like but setting your employees up for that and encouraging them. Hey, you know You have that conversation however you want if it's helpful for me I can help you think of some topics or we can talk about them So you feel prepared for that conversation, but use me however, I'm a resource Can you imagine having a boss say those things to you and how different that would be than your boss finding out

you have this and they're coming in on it? And I think it's good though for those one-up managers just go ahead and schedule those skip meetings themselves. Get a pulse. It doesn't have to be a pulse of how your manager's doing. It's more of a pulse of how the employees are doing that are ultimately under you. I know at my last company, my one-up did that, and I really appreciate it.

We had monthly check-ins. And it was never about my boss. It was just about my job and what I was doing and what I could do. And I really appreciated that time with her. Yeah. I think it's really important to be mindful, though, of the language that's occurring in your organization, right? And just really thinking about that, right? So if you are hearing, you know, these sort of command control, chain of command, sort of, you know, cringy corporate speaks, it's probably a great indication that you're in

a hierarchical organization, a command control, like I said, organization. It's probably a seniority based organization versus a meritocracy. Like all these common phrases that are happening in your organization can give you some real insight into what you're dealing with from a cultural perspective, right? And, you know, perhaps an indication, whether it's toxic or not, right? Or whether there's some red flags there, or whether it's a fit for you even. You know what I mean? I have one organization that I love dearly,

but we would get a carabiner, like a hiking 12, with cards, with tons of cards, with all the corporate speak and definition on it of like to use so that you could bring that into your vernacular. My best leaders would be like, don't worry, you don't need to. I am snarling right now.

Because I think the goal of those things sometimes is to get people having a communication. But the problem of that is, Tilly's point is you have these hierarchical where the senior leaders use a phrase so everyone feels like to advance they have to use this phrase. It's the parody, but it can create really inauthentic leaders and you're completely doing the opposite of what you're trying to do by like giving this common voice. Well, now you have a same voice.

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of all things toxic bosses and toxic leadership, you know, if you've seen my HR manifesto, that really is my specialty, right? That is the core focus of my content. I call myself and my followers toxic workplace survivors. I'm all about helping people leave their toxic jobs for ones they'll love. So unfortunately, and maybe a little fortunately,

I've learned a lot, I guess, through trauma. You know, I've been in a handful of toxic work environments, and that's because of what I do as an HR professional, right? So what differentiates me in HR is that I love to unravel corporate spaghetti. I'm very highly strategic and futuristic. And so I'm always that one that's like dispatched into something messy, work M&A, integration, acquisition, reorg, whatever, to then, you know,

make it normal, right, air quotes, to just try and work through some of that corporate chaos. And so naturally I'm gonna gravitate to that or I've been promoted into those types of roles. So yes, I've experienced a lot of toxic workplaces, but those workplaces are toxic because a lot of those leaders are toxic. You know what I mean? And so again, there is this trickle-down effect there. But what I have seen

is that it's real, right? So whatever you are feeling, it is real. You know, if you are feeling uncomfortable or you are feeling hurt and burned out and stressed out and anxiety and those Sunday scaries in the case of the Mondays and your dreading work and even waking up in the morning, all of that is valid and that is real and you should be listening to yourself on that because you probably are in a place that it does not suit you and may not value you and it's very, very uncomfortable, and it legitimately hurts, right? And so I coach a lot of folks, and the PTSD is real from toxic bosses.

Yeah. And having a toxic boss can fundamentally change who you are as a human being. Some situations have been so toxic and the conversations that I've had, multiple people talking about wanting to unalive themselves because of their experience with their toxic boss. So this is something to take very, very seriously. And especially in HR, you know, we are advocates of the people

and we are coaches of managers, and we should lean in as much as we possibly can and help those bosses get where we need them to be for our workplace and support our people. To have the data on that, UKG had done a study on their research arm about beginning of 2023, and that research study came out and showed that your direct manager can have more impact on your health than your doctor or your therapist. It's roughly on par with your partner or spouse,

if you're partnered. And so to Lee's point, it's absolutely, and why is that? Well, think about it. That is your, it impacts so much from the sun, from depending on your schedule, your Sunday nights or whatever that is, and that experience experience and it takes up so much of your working hours. And so, you know, the negative aspect or the positive side, when you have those where you

have that manager that supports you and validates you and gives you not just, you know, permission, but support to be present and take that time for your personal needs and achieve your goals and is invested in your success, that impact on your health and take that time for your personal needs and achieve your goals and is invested in your success. That impact on your health and what that can look like from your sleep generally is, so the flip side of toxic leadership is there's a real value, it's not just survival, it is thriving in ways that you can help people

thrive at work. Yeah, you know what is really interesting? I know that we have a very global audience, right? We do. But I oftentimes think this is a relatively unique American experience, right? And what I mean by that and maybe insight for those outside of the US,

if you don't already know this from just watching TikToks and being on the socials, is that there is this fear in the US workplace. I've always felt that personally, right? Anytime you have an ad hoc meeting with the boss, they schedule, you think you're getting fired. Yeah. You just do, right? There's a lot of anxiety about that.

I mean, tons of anxiety. And a lot of that is because, there it is, one person can take you out for literally no reason. I mean, you know, there's like no job protections here. And there's rarely severances or, you know, anything like that. And so they can just fire you. And when you look at, you know, the statistics, you know, in the U.S. when it comes, when it comes to people living one paycheck away

from literally poverty, or so many below the poverty line, I mean, they are so dependent on that job. And so what's happening because of that fear and that lack of social support or systems or health care or whatever it is or employment protections or whatever is that it is very easy then for workers to be exploited especially in the US taken advantage of pushed to the limits because there's really nothing you can do you know and you you will take it you will take the pain and you will take the

punishment because you have a house payment and you're in credit card debt and your student loans are through the roof and you have kiddos to feed and you need to eat yourself. But it's this whole kind of, I think really existential about this. It's this whole real toxic system and ecosystem in the US especially.

Other places of course too, but it's what we know and what we're close to. So when people have it, and it's the difference, it is people will say, I have this boss and I cannot believe I thank God every day. And you are praying to a deity to get the experience that you deserve. And I'm so lucky to have this. And if you flip it and say, what if everybody could have that work environment that they deserve?

And there's some real basics. But well, and you know, I think, Lee, you've mentioned this before, but I'm thankful for the toxic bosses that I have had because I will never be that leader. And I will make sure that my employees always feel protected. And I want to make sure I'm taking care of my employees and they they're not you know Like I've been physically ill going to work like literally had to pull over on the side of the road and Throw up not kidding because it was like that much anxiety

so and It's it's happened twice in my career And so it's it really does take such a mental toll on you emotionally, mentally, physically. And you're absolutely right. You feel like you can't just quit because you've got bills and whatnot. So then it's like, we'll have to find another job. And then it's, oh, well, I'm taking off for another dentist appointment and air quotes, you know, to get an interview or whatnot. Or even I've told a story before about one of the toxic bosses for me that I was passed

over for promotion and she hired her bestie, blah, blah, blah. But I ultimately ended up staying a little bit longer at that job, and about two and a half years. And it wasn't because I wanted to. It was because of my husband and I were trying to have our second child. And unfortunately, we were having a lot of difficulty. And if I stayed at that job, I was going to be protected under FMLA. So I stayed and luckily we did get pregnant a few months later after a year and a half

tried. And I stayed with that company because I knew that first of all I could do that job in my sleep. But two, I knew that I was going to be protected. And I know that's an American thing. But I knew that I was going to have to suffer through nine whole months of that toxic boss to be protected by FMLA. And then when I came back, I decided to stay longer. I did look a little bit and I dabbled while I was out on maternity leave. But ultimately I thought, you know, this is something I can go into on three hours of sleep and pump in

the closet. And you know what I mean? Like, I knew the job so well. So I end up staying at this toxic place for just shy of five years. But I think about that often. And luckily, you know, towards the tail end of it, I knew I was getting out. So there was a little bit of justice there for me, and I knew that this was only a temporary thing. But I feel like it really changed me as a person.

And there was months after that I felt like my body was almost repairing itself from the PTSD that it caused. So we think sometimes in these, thinking about, okay, so what can you do if you're in HR and you see toxic leadership? And again, toxic can mean a lot of things. It's really important. What does that look like? Is that those leaders that are not self-aware, and they may be a leader on LinkedIn, they

may be a voice people look at, they can put up a great post that's viral, but the actual experience of their employees is completely different. They don't know who their employees are, but if you're in HR, Lee, what would you think that someone could do as HR in a leadership team meeting, like a practical, to try to address that aspect of toxic leadership?

Well, this is what's interesting, right? And this is one of those kind of warning, warning, danger sort of things, because HR professionals are employees too. We get fired as well. I've been fired for standing up for what's right, for trying to coach the toxic out of leaders, right? So we get fired too. And so it does take a lot of courage and a lot of bravery

to do the right thing. Doing the right thing isn't easy. We know that. And you define for yourself what the right thing is, right? For me, it's to call someone to the floor on their behavior and to do all I can to coach them. Sometimes they are not open to that. I had a very toxic, toxic leader back in the day, literally a sociopathic narcissist. So wow, that's really hard. That's gonna be really hard for someone like me

to coach and get through to. But when you have someone that you're working with that doesn't feel, literally, like serial killer level feeling or lack of feeling is a better way to say it, sometimes coaching is futile. Sometimes it is completely impossible. It really, really is. And so as much as you try, you may not be successful as HR, but the important thing is to try. That's my position because I'm

very much so a people first focused HR advocate and professional, and so I'm going to do anything and everything I possibly can to try and affect that leader as much as I can and to try and affect that leader as much as I can and have an impact on that toxic leader to help shift and change their behaviors as much as I possibly can. And again, that's kind of holding that mirror. It's kind of like, how did that feel? It's all those sorts of things, not the, how dare you blah, blah, blah.

But really that kind of more traditional coaching to try and build that relationship with them, get that credibility with them, first and foremost, that trust, so then hopefully that they can listen to me and be influenced by me, you know, so I can help shift that behavior. Now, if they are truly toxic, I'm gonna do all I can to fire them from that organization

because they are hopefully not a fit in that organization because they are so fricking toxic, you know what I mean? And so I'm going to address that. I'm not going to be sweeping things under the rug. And again, that takes a lot of courage, especially if it's a higher level leader. And you may or may not be successful, but you're doing all you can to hopefully at least put them, you know, in the spotlight a little bit. Hopefully they dial back on some of those toxic behaviors. But I think honesty is respect and respect is honesty.

And we got to do all we can in HR, you know, to fight for the employee experience. I think a lot of this is that education piece. Again, there's there's there are groups of leaders that are there egotistical and they won't listen. There's also ones that don't they don't know better and they and a lot of those you know may well some may be newer some may have been managers for a while and they just they don't think they have that that ego and that ego really is a human characteristic and so you know people that that have this C-level title you think well everyone everyone respects this,

so people should respect me. One of the things you see is when a leader is coming to town at a plant or at a facility, what else, people spend all of their time getting it ready and putting it up for that person. And so one thing that I think that a true leader can do is to proactively say to that team, say, please do not do anything differently for when I'm coming.

I want to see things. And if things are array or there's things that are good, I want to dig into those because I don't want this to be a one day experience. This is a constant experience. And so please don't spend your time or have people working late at night to prepare for my VP's coming to town, my directors coming to town. Like, no, no, no, show me, because if there's things you're having a challenge with and they're not working on a day-to-day basis,

like, don't band-aid it for me. Like, let's talk about those and figure out what we can do. And so, again, it's that level of education, because often that VP, that director, that C-level, has no idea the hours that people are working to get shit ready for them to come and make it perfect, and the fear that a lot of people are bringing to the house,

what's gonna get jacked up, are we gonna get in trouble after this? And so if you do it, and instead, leaders saying, show me things how they are, let's figure out. And also to someone there, who's someone, or a couple people that should have recognition while they're there, that they've done something.

And so that leader comes to town, and instead of it being a fear-based experience, you have someone maybe that's worked there for 34 years that doesn't really get that much kudos, is just a really reliable member of the team. And you have the C letter, the leader saying, I wanted to find out and I heard that you do these things, that person, they're going to go home, they're going to tell their family, their grandkids, and that will be probably one of the top moments of their career. So you can take the fear and turn that into something really good. And that's something I'm really passionate about, organizations thinking differently.

Yeah. You know, I mentioned this before, but really leadership is all about how you make people feel. And so you can be a great leader or you can be a toxic leader. You're making people feel something. You know what I mean? So from a toxic leadership perspective, you know, for me a toxic leader is someone that you see using a lot of manipulation in the workplace, gaslighting, lying, backstabbing, throwing

people under the bus, you know, folks that are very unapproachable, that don't listen, they're not, you know, asking for people's ideas, they shut people down. I mean, you name it, there's a lot of characteristics, you know, on what kind of, you know, defines toxicity in the workplace or a toxic leader more specifically. That is like one of the key questions that I'm asked.

But to me again, me getting existential like such a nerd, the concept of toxic leadership or a toxic workplace is actually incredibly subjective. And so I get asked, what is toxic? What's a toxic workplace? What's a toxic leader? And I was like, well, what is toxic? What's a toxic workplace? What's a toxic leader? And I was like, well, what is that to you? Because what someone's, you know, toxic workplace, you know, whatever the toxic workplace is to someone is actually somebody else's playground.

They frickin love it, you know, they frickin thrive on it's not toxic to them. And so it's a very personal experience. And that's why I shared earlier, whatever you are feeling is completely valid, right? And so trust your gut on that. Trust those parade of red flags that you see. It's very subjective. You don't need me or Ashley or Jamie answering, you know, to you, what is subjective? Sorry, what is toxic? Because it's so subjective. If it feels it and it feels wrong and it doesn't feel right to you, what is subjective? Sorry, what is toxic? Because it's so subjective. If it feels it and it feels wrong and it doesn't feel right to you, well then that hurts and that's toxic and that's totally valid. You know, it doesn't have to be this profound, you know, thing, right?

It just, whatever is bothering you, you don't feel the fit in the organization. And so that's what I always find fascinating is the definition of what is toxic. It's your own personal definition, but just know that you may be sitting next to someone who actually enjoys that culture. They're having a different experience in it, you know? Yeah, Jamie loves that toxic shit. You know what I mean? I do not love toxic shit. You're cleaning it up. Yes. Yeah, she does love cleaning up. She's good at that.

I do love to clean up a mess. Toxic for me is really not spending time like proactively. So you always feel where you do feel like you're a burden to someone, you know, asking them the questions and feeling like that, like, you know, trying to look to them as a resource and like that you just... You feel so feeling very alone and not sure where to get the answers. I think that level of feeling for me. And then also like the really like hierarchical. I mean, literally the phrase like, I'm an executive.

The chain of command. Yeah, it is. It is the chain. I mean, that chain of command, but it is, it's this level that people think because they have the big salary and they have this and they, you know, they have that, like, fantastic. So, so good. And, but then what are you doing for others to bring others up and what kind of experience are you creating others?

And it's, it really is just wild to me, some of these people that just have no fucking regard for other people and what that looks like from their day-to-day experience. And so, again, one of the silver linings that I had growing up and having experiences seeing my parents finishing college while I'm in elementary school and money was a very real topic in our household. And me working at Sears in the electronics department, not fancy like HR, but was seeing like the levels of like, just taking people for granted and that you can do with them what they like.

They're a number on a spreadsheet. And me, that's probably the biggest, is not thinking about them as real people who have very real lives. Yeah, for me, you know, the toxic leaders that I have, and again, I've had a handful in my career, unfortunately, they were toxic to me. Again, toxic is very subjective. They were toxic to me because they made me feel as though I wasn't good enough. And that's a lie. They made me feel that being me wasn't a good thing, right?

And when I reflect on all of those, I realize now, like, oh, that one was threatened or that one, you know, thought that I had, you know, a unique skill they wish they had. I mean, you can reflect and you can kind of connect dots, all the ways they do the projection. I had one of my toxic bosses tell me that, you're too smart and that makes me feel bad about myself. Right, I mean, so very open about it.

You know what I mean? Let's just go to trivia night. Yeah, exactly. I appreciate your honesty. I know. Question mark. Right. I had another one tell me that you need to mute yourself in this meeting.

And it was a live meeting, not a Zoom meeting. But they just said, you're just, you're too much. And I mean, I remember I told that guy, no, you're not enough. You know what I mean? So I'm very much that person. I had another toxic boss tell me, nobody wants to work with you and you've made no impact on this business.

And it's like, that is the absolute biggest crock of shit. No one in my whole life has ever given me any feedback like that. That is projection. What I literally heard was her saying, no one wants to work with her, that is projection. What I literally heard was her saying, no one wants to work with her, which is true. And she's made no impact on the business, which is also true, right? So it's like all of these different examples in my career when I've had what I deem to be a toxic boss, were people

that made me feel like I wasn't good or I I wasn't good enough, or I could not be me. And that's all I wanted to ever be, was be transparently, authentically me, and now I'm having a light bulb moment. That's the thing, is that I am very much like this person everywhere I am. And so, I can see how if people feel they have to put on the facade, or they have to play a certain part, someone like me is going to piss them off.

That's living like their real self. Because this is you walk and vouch. This is literally me. This is me at work. This is me at home. This is me, you know? And so maybe that's really what it was, as I like reflect back. But that was definitely toxic to me. Was, you know, they're toxic to me.

Toxic leaders, someone that, you know, makes people feel like they're less than and that they shouldn't be them. And man, people should be bringing their whole selves toxic to me, toxic leader, is someone that makes people feel like they're less than and that they shouldn't be dumb. And man, people should be bringing their whole selves to the workplace, you know, and they should feel safe to do so. Agreed. All right.

Well, gosh, whoo, all things toxic leadership. How exhausting is that talking about these cringy folks in the workplace that lack the self-esteem and confidence. Ooh, but let's help our toxic leaders as much as we can, get them where we need them, which is either- Detoxify. To detoxify, we need to get them where they need to be, which is either out on the street,

or in a better place from a leadership perspective. All right, so shifting into questions and comments, because I know we have a hard stop. I have a comment. Please. Is a line that's always resonated with me is from the movie Frozen, which is that... Let it go. You will have to.

But is that people do bad things when they're mad or scared or stressed. I won't sing. And so, you know, when you have toxic leadership or toxic situations or toxic colleagues at the workplace, the lingering question people often say is why? You know, you may never know the why. But if you think about those three, if someone's mad or scared or stressed, and I think the scared or stressed really happen in the workplace because as someone goes up the corporate ladder up to and including CEO, chairman, board, people are often scared

or stressed about their ego, how they'll be perceived, their money. And so when people retract like that, they can lash out in conversations and treat everybody else as trying to mess with those things. And they have that sense of fear. And so you can sometimes use that to think about how to get someone's attention. Someone's scared about money. Okay, we'll talk about it.

If you do these things, they have a better financial impact on the workplace. They're the right thing to do, but they're also financially better for you. Let me show you the data on that. But for your own self, is you can generally think if someone's being very toxic, is to peg to yourself and you can probably imagine if they're mad or scared

or stressed, so thank you, Rosen. Elsa, that shit and let it go. I actually have a quote. When I mentioned hospitality, I worked for Marriott for four years and there's actually a Bill Marriott quote that has stuck with me all these years, and so I want to read it. Take good care of your employees, and they'll take good care of your customers, and the customers will keep coming back. And, you know, once again, in HR, our customers are the employees. And I think it's always stuck with me because we want to take

good care of our employees because we want them to trust us to come back again for their next issue. And like I said, you can take that however you want it, but as an HR professional, that's kind of how I always took it. And it's always stuck with me all these years later. That's a good one, Jamie. I like that. Not a question, but a quick comment. stuck with me all these years later. That's a good one, Jamie, I like that.

Not a question, but a quick comment. Leadership is not for everybody. It really isn't. It really isn't. It really isn't. And that's okay. Yes. You know, that's what I want, and that's okay.

If you're listening to this and you're like, man, I hate people, I hate leading people, am I a toxic boss? If you're asking yourself that, I hate people. I hate leading people. Am I a toxic boss? If you're asking yourself that question, you are. Okay. You have been. You don't have to be, but you may have been. Exactly.

But it is okay to walk away from leadership. There are other ways to make money because just know as much as you hate being a leader, the people that report to you hate, loathe being led by you even more. And it's affecting them personally. And of course, professionally. And so please just know that, that there's all sorts of ways to make money.

It's not just, you know, being a manager. You should have this respect of the position of leading people. It's absolutely a privilege. So it is not for everyone and that is okay. You know what I mean? But if you do want to be a leader, God be a fucking good one. You know what I mean?

Invest in it as much as you can. Invest in yourself, raise your hand, ask for that training, read all you can, be there for your people and just fricking kill it. And they will thank you for it for the rest of their lives for how you made them feel. Ah, well gosh, that is all things toxic leadership. Thank you so much, HR Besties for joining us

and our staff meeting God. We love you here at our table. Until next time, you take care and don't be toxic, please.