Huberman Lab - Transform Pain & Trauma Into Creative Expression | David Choe

Episode Date: December 22, 2025

David Choe is a world-renowned artist, writer, podcaster and TV host. He tells how as a child, he was made to believe he was destined for greatness but also that he was a complete disgrace, leading him to channel his energy—including deep shame—into art that brought him global recognition. He shares about his addictions that put him on a decades-long cycle of extreme highs and lows and that forced him to eventually acknowledge and heal the childhood trauma he was battling inside. David shows up with raw, authentic presence to show us how we can transmute pain and shame into our best creative work and, more importantly, how complete vulnerability, especially about our hardest experiences, is the ultimate tool for forgiveness and self-acceptance. He also tells us the actual story about early Facebook, Pee-wee Herman and Santa Claus. Note: This conversation includes topics and language that may not be suitable for younger audiences. Read the episode show notes at hubermanlab.com. Thank you to our sponsors AG1: https://drinkag1.com/huberman Eight Sleep: https://eightsleep.com/huberman LMNT: https://drinklmnt.com/huberman Function: https://functionhealth.com/huberman Mateina: https://drinkmateina.com/huberman Timestamps 00:00:00 David Choe 00:03:10 Drawing, Black & Colors, Death 00:12:54 Telepathy, South Bay 00:17:52 Sponsors: Eight Sleep & LMNT 00:20:40 Childhood, Podcasts, Mundane Moments & Artist Life 00:28:45 Mother, Beliefs, Religion, Artistic Ability, Childhood 00:33:27 Gambling, Transformation; Immigrant, Disgrace 00:40:10 Street Art, Graffiti, Creativity; Paintings, Payment; Sports 00:52:08 Sponsor: AG1 00:53:30 Santa, Belief; Journal, Vulnerability; Heart Break, Art 01:00:16 Facebook, Graffiti; Theft, Gambling 01:10:57 Adapting, Creativity 01:17:16 Album Cover, Art & Payment 01:23:40 Sponsor: Function 01:25:28 Immigrant & Belonging, Academics, Learning Art, Marvel Comics, Shame 01:35:11 Shame, Gambling Addiction, Stress 01:43:05 Sexual Abuse, Trauma, Shame, Addiction 01:51:52 Early Career, Pornography, Author 02:01:20 Graffiti, Disappointment, Rejection; Early Magazines 02:08:26 Sponsor: Mateina 02:09:27 Pornography, Co-Dependence; Movie Set 02:18:00 Pride & Family, Vice; Pokémon 02:26:44 Podcast, Workaholism, Shame, Reality; Anthony Bourdain, Channing Tatum 02:38:54 Writing, Career Success, Workaholism, Vice, News, Self-Sabotage, Heart Attack 02:52:21 Growth & Pain, Sizzler; David Arquette 02:58:40 Rehab, God, Purpose, Parents & Disappointment, The Choe Show, Pee-Wee Herman 03:05:53 Gratitude, Korean Immigrant, Self-Reflection, Brokenness 03:14:37 Emotion, Saying No, Suicide; Vacation & Workaholism, Art 03:25:23 Legacy; Vacation, Work; Authenticity 03:31:15 Surviving & Thriving, Suicide, Addiction, Play the Tape Out, Fun, Feeling Enough 03:44:43 Hope & Faith, Electronics, Santa Claus 03:51:23 Zero-Cost Support, YouTube, Spotify & Apple Follow, Reviews & Feedback, Sponsors, Protocols Book, Social Media, Neural Network Newsletter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm a severe gambling addict. Every single addiction is gambling addiction. If you drink and drive, you're gambling. Addiction is one of those things you can't apply logic to. People, what are you running from, Dave? I'm like, well, I'm fucking running from myself, dude. I don't want to look in the mirror. I don't want to see myself.

I hate myself. So I'm just running. So as long as I'm like doing graffiti, running from the police, you know, just just hopping on a train. Like, like literal running. Like literally running to make sure I'm never sit still for one. second, like, what are you doing, Dave? I'm playing drums in a band. I'm, you know, at a casino. I'm traveling, doing the news for vice. I'm painting at this. Like, I can't, I can't sit still because that means I have to sit with myself. And I can't do that. I can't do that.

I couldn't do that. I couldn't do that. I can now. Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for day life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is David Cho. David Cho is an artist. He's a highly accomplished painter, graffiti and street artist, writer, podcaster, and television

host. Many of you are perhaps familiar with David as the guy who famously painted the original Facebook offices, took equity for the job, and got rich. Now, that's a wild story, but David's whole life. journey, what he did prior to and after that, and what he has overcome along the way is a million times wilder. As he shares today, David grew up hearing and thinking that he was destined for greatness, but also hearing and thinking that he was a total disgrace. Today, he talks with complete openness and vulnerability about addiction, about cycles of success and failure, and about channeling

and overcoming deep shame. Today's podcast is unlike any other that I've hosted. David is wide open about his childhood abuse, his massive success, then career setbacks, relapses, and transmuting every possible emotion into art along the way. So no matter who you are, David's story, and just as importantly, how he's living right now, how he shows up on this podcast, will change what you think is possible for you in life.

It will force you to look inward and to use whatever joy and pain you have inside of you to be the best human being you can possibly be. David Cho is, as we say in science, an end of one, meaning there is no other like him. Yes, because of his incredible art, but also for his willingness to share so openly and honestly so that others can benefit and grow.

I consider it a true honor and privilege to host David on this podcast, and frankly, it's impossible not to love him. This one is incredibly raw and honest. It's also full of surprises, many of which are fun surprises. So buckle up. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with David Cho. David Cho, welcome. Thank you for having me, man. A huge longtime fan. Love your art. I've been super inspired by your YouTube channel.

I watch it sometimes before I do my drawing or I prepare for a podcast. What are you drawing? I draw a lot of anatomy on top of some paintings. So I do neuroanatomy on top of some paintings that my friend Tim Armstrong has been doing. A musician. Is it anatomically correct or is it like exaggerated or is it? This is a really good question. So in essence, it's anatomically correct.

Yeah. But around the turn of the last century, two guys, Kahal and Golgi won the Nobel Prize. Yeah. For drawing the nervous system and showing these things no one had seen before. and they stripped away everything except the essential piece. I'm going to come paint with you. I'm going to come here with you. I don't like what's happening in your painting studio.

Okay. I'm just from what you said so far, it's not good. Okay. But it's good because you did that, and then now we have to strip that away. We have to get at the core of it because painting is, wait, weren't you in the middle of complimenting me? Like, keep going.

I mean, I love your YouTube channel. I watch you before I, I prepare podcast and before I paint or draw, and I'm back to drawing a lot now, and I live, I converted an art gallery into the living space, and somehow I thought that that would make me more inspired, but it turns out it does. A lot of things do, but I think the key with anatomy and trying to teach science with drawings is can't be too much detail, can't be too little detail otherwise people are overwhelmed it's the best thing for i think everyone but for someone like you who spends a lot of time in your head i always say the longest journey you'll ever take

in your life is from your head to your heart and to be uh an intellectual person you just live a lot a lot you like you try to rationalize and apply logic to everything so painting is not that music is not that creating is not that it's just to get to this and so for but it sounds just in the little that explained that your painting is very methodical and which super meticulous i want to include every cell type yeah what's your threshold for positive affirmations can i go now like you i mean i like to think i have a thick skin but all right no it's all it's all love okay um for anyone who's watching or listening this is my first time meeting adam andrew all good all good all good you knew my last name You know what?

I was thinking about my friend Adam. All good. That you know, that used to skate with, I think. Adam Krohn? Yeah. Yeah. I was just thinking like, Upper playground.

Yeah, upper playground. Yeah, he worked. His dad owns Crone's shoes in Paloito. He wants to reconnect with you. Man, Adam Kroen and I grew up together. Yeah, I was just. He had a mini ramp in his backyard. We hung out, we skateboarded, and then he started Upper Playground, the Walrus.

That's, that's it. He's your homie? I used to work for, I did tons of giraffics for Upper Playground. Wow. Does anyone call you Andy? My skateboard friends call me Andy, so yeah. But that's it, like no one in the medical, like science world? Not anymore, no, not really.

That would have, like, you start your podcast and you do your, you're like, I'm Andrew Huberman, I'm, like, I'm going to be all over the place because I'm nervous being here right now. I hardly do podcasts anymore, so I'm going to be all over the place. It's going to be sloppy. This is your canvas, man. Have fun. Well, I'm just meeting you. I already called you.

the wrong name which is horrible um i hate the black i hate it like the studio this you with the black t-shirt the black mugs the black like i don't like it for you you know because i used to i used to only wear black because i was like i'm a painter i'm always dirty i don't want to like you know you could see the ketchup stains on my sweater and it's like okay that's that's fine but i just um colors are very important in not just painting but like the palette for your house or you know like most people talk about in the modern age modern man is you know and i and i just make shit up so you could correct you're like the facts guy but i i feel like most people human beings alive today are going to die a very uh it's mean to say boring but just the same death right you'll most likely

die laying down in a bed or hospice or in a hospital bit you know it's just like no one's dying like i know there's other countries where there's war and famine but i'm saying modern city you know like there's not like a hero's death right so it's just it's all the same and then you just you know the drive here in traffic it's like everyone either has a black car or a white car or a gray car and then you get to their house and their house is a beige or a white and you're just like we only got one of these you know, whatever your views on the afterlife are, but this is it, this is it, like, this is it. And it's just, like, people get mad of like,

oh, I spilled paint on the floor, like, I got to scratch. I'm like, paint everything. Paint your fucking car. Paint, make your, my kids drew my sweater. It's my favorites, you know, like that sweater. You know, so I walk in here and I go, fuck, dude. Like, and I'm projecting on you now. Like, when I wore all black, it said a lot about where I was at in my life.

And I don't know where you're at because I'm just meeting you, But it's like, everything is black on black, like black on the black t-shirt, black mug, black. And it's like white t-shirt. For my dream, my, my, uh, selfishly my dream is like this podcast would start instead of saying, hey, I'm Andrew Huberman and like Stanford scientist that it's just, hi, I'm Andy. And then like you can you Photoshop like a white t-shirt on? I'd wear a white t-shirt. I don't know.

I don't like black. For me, I have hardly ever black clothes anymore. I want to add as much color because I just, maybe that's the season I am in my life or the time I'm in. But, yeah, I appreciate you saying the nice stuff. I never thought I would be a YouTuber, but that's providing a lot of joy in my life. And so I want to say to you,

I'm meeting you for the first time. I've never seen you clean-shaven, but I imagine, I mean, your beard and facial hair to me look very cute, you're very handsome. Your voice, when I hear your voice, immediately is soothing, and I feel like this is a very kind person. Like, once again, without having, like, now I've met you for like five minutes. I'm like, oh, this guy's super awesome, but, you know, like these kind of parisocial relationships where, I could go even, I don't know how hard you want to go today, but like, it's like, I meet people all the time, and then I meet them. And it's like, I've already met you. Like, we've already talked.

I don't know what your views on telepathy and spirituality. And it's like, it's just everyone will meet. Everything's going to happen the way it's going to happen and everyone's going to meet who they need to meet. It's like all energy, right? You put this like, what? You know, I could sit there and go, why does Andrew Huberin want to meet me right now? And it's like, well, what am I putting out in the universe? what is he putting out in the universe and art do the souls connect in that way you know so i just

i said if i ever meet him i just want to tell him how cute he is how soothing and relaxing and like there's something very um this is the invisible ingredient in like everything in art is did the person care right like i don't care how skilled and crafted whatever like did the person care And like when you do stuff in your voice, the tone, the frequency that's hitting my, my soul is like, oh, I don't know everything that guy's saying. He's using some big words, but I feel like he cares. And so I said if I ever meet you, and I know a little bit from us talking on the phone, but I don't know your whole backstory, but I'm like, also I project a lot and I make a lot of assumptions, which that's a defect that I'm working on. But I just wanted to say, like, even though, You had a horrific traumatic childhood, like the fact that you're here, you're alive, and that you're doing all this good stuff. It makes me emotional because I'm like, I don't even know you and I appreciate what you're doing. And you're still a little bit immature, but progress, not perfection, right?

So I think that's it for now. But I just wanted to tell you all that because I feel. that way about you and I I I like I'm a big sometimes you feel stuff and you're like I'll text it to them or or maybe you know and I just go no if I feel that I just want to especially if it's love and positivity I know I started by telling you how much I hate your decor and your interior decorating but it's because I like you like I wouldn't if I do if I like if I'm like I don't give a shit about this guy and I don't want a relationship with I would never say anything but I'm like this I don't know what the signs behind it,

but being surrounded by this much black cannot be good, right? It can't, like, just, you're walking into a black hole right now. Like, I don't know. Anyways, that's, that's what I wanted to say. Oh, man. Well, I'll take that in.

Thank you. A lot there, thank you. Were you able to take it in? Yeah, I was able to take in some of that. All right. When you call me Andy, it's a different part of my persona, just because that names carry a lot. Oh, yeah.

Thank you for that. I'm going to take that in. And, you know, I get this little voice in my head that's saying, I want to be very clear. You know, I had some rough, rough aspects of my childhood. I've made good amends with my parents, so we're good now. I say that to, you know, for all the reasons people can assume. But here's the thing. I knew somehow that we'd eventually cross paths.

I just didn't know when. So you say the telepathy thing. For me, I was a postdoc at Stanford. That comes after PhD, you do like five years. It's kind of like a residency. And I'm from the South Bay. And I didn't want to go back to the South Bay because, as you know, no disrespect to the South Bay. A lot of interesting things come out of there, but it was pretty devoid of the things that I like.

Yeah. Which normally are in cities like art, live music. It used to be like that. Grateful Dead were in Palo Alto. I saw Fugazi play at the edge on California Avenue. There was a lot of interesting things about Palo Alto, but it became very right angles when the tech industry really explain. floated there. And in 2007, when I was a postdoc, was when you were muraling at Facebook, I learned that later. But that was a time when I was back there for my science career,

and I was pretty miserable. Being close to home again, honestly, I didn't want to ever go back there for a while. It was not healing. But when I learned your story about muraling at Facebook and some of that. I was like, oh, there was at least one other person here who was like in the kind of spiritual emotional fight with what the South Bay is. And then I realized that I heard an interview with Ian Mackay from Meyer Threat. And it turns out he had been in Palo Alto because his dad was an academic or something like that.

Of course. And he had skated some of the same ditches. And so there's a history of people being really frustrated with being there. Really good Vietnamese food. Is there really? Yeah. Oh, impolit? Or the South Bay. Yeah, South Bay. Oh, yeah, Castor Street, Mountain View. Yeah. And it's changed a lot. But take me back to 2007. I don't know how you feel about historical stuff. But we're definitely, I'm definitely down to time travel and time jump and all that. But because my, I'm older, I'm 49 and my attention span is just completely fried. I'm going to, I'll just say right now, I'm going to get a lot of dates wrong. Like, I'm not, like, you know, things, people are like, that's, you know, like.

2007 was when the Facebook offices were what kids from the South Bay called the neck of University Avenue, right before it goes under the train tracks. As soon as you're on the other side of the train tracks, Cal Train, it becomes Palm Drive and it's up to Stanford. And so those offices now are Palantir, which catches a lot of heat for other reasons. But those offices, right as you go under the train tracks, for us, there was a curb cut right there and there was a boardslide thing. And so for the skateboarders, it was one thing. But then that was Facebook offices. And years later, I heard David Cho was merely at Facebook. So how did that come to be?

I'm going to be, like, very sloppy, like I said. And it's maybe some of the stuff. Because sometimes it's the way I treat talking in journalism and podcast is like, it's like a story in my own head. Someone else is like, just shut the fuck up and answer the question, right? But like, for me, when I paint, I don't sketch. I go straight to a finish. So sometimes I'm figuring out what I'm trying to tell you

because you asked me a question that's very direct, but the way it went into my head was very abstract because I'm, so if you let me do a little paint mixing, I hope I'll answer your question. But do you know Peewee, like I'm wearing it today, do you know Peewee's Playhouse? I knew, oh yeah, I mean, yeah. I met him actually.

Paul Rubin's? Yeah, at a photo show of Mike Monroe. Muller and Sage, who draws butterflies on Mike Muller's sharks and animals. And Pee Wee Herman in his thing, in his suit, the whole thing, walked up, Laird Hamilton was there. Nice. And he walks up to Laird Hamilton. There are a bunch of people around. Everyone's trying to get to Laird.

Laird is like a, this was 2017. And I was in West Hollywood. And Peewee Herman walks up and he goes, I have to meet you. And Laird's like, and the best thing is Laird just goes, oh, hello, what's your name? like typical Laird, like Lair's a real gentleman, always, you know. And he didn't know who Pee-Wee-Herman was? I couldn't tell him you knew or not. And he's like, I've really wanted to meet you, this kind of thing.

And I was like, no way. And he had the whole thing, like the shiny lips and the thing. And I was like, that's Pee-Wirman. That's amazing. I love that. All right, well, I mean, I'm definitely going to have to tell you my Pee-E-Herman story at some point. I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Eight Sleep. 8Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity.

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like the trifecta, my holy trinity of children's education, art entertainment is Mr. Rogers, Bob Ross, and then, of course, Peewee Herman. I mean, Peewee Herman had Lawrence Fishburn, Gary Panter, Mark Mothersbaugh, like Danny Elfman. Like, he just, he was like the ringleader of all this creativity. And he had like, mechalika hi, meca hi, meca hi, nih ho. And do you remember the, do you remember the secret word? The secret word was like, if anyone's our age that's watching people's playoffs, it was like, today's secret word is, I don't,

I don't know. What's our secret word today, Rob? Microphone. Microphone. And if someone says microphone, scream real loud. So can we do that today? Sure. All right. I'm counting on you. I want you to scream the loudest. And you don't take a pee until we take a pee. We got an agreement on that? Okay. All right.

I hated the South Bay. I hate, I hate, like, I just. I have all the typical artist traits. I'm clinically depressed. I'm bipolar. I have all the process addictions, food, sex, gambling, shopping, workaholic. Like, I don't have, thank God, I don't have any of the chemical addictions

because I'm allergic to everything, but severe OCD, severe antisocial traits. um you know i i just highly sensitive you know so i i just coming here today like you asked me and i kept text like i don't we did this like dance for a few months and uh i uh if i'm just being honest with you like i don't i don't know how to not be me you know and sometimes like i put a mask on and i i i'm like i think this is what Andrew wants me to be today, but I, you know, I didn't even meet you yet. And so every time I've done Joe Rogan or any other podcast, like, I don't know, I just feel

comfortable doing my own YouTube or my own podcast, but anytime anyone else asks me, it's such a, I know who I am, and sometimes I don't, and sometimes I figure that out. And it's, sometimes you meet people on the street at pavilions or at the supermarket, and they're like, I, and it's like this parisocial thing where it's like, I know you, I relate to you. And there's something about that where, you know, the intimacy of meeting another human being and then just showing them your heart and then telling them everything. And my parents aren't going to listen to this. My brothers don't listen to it.

Like, so in a weird way, like, you're going to know more about me today than my own family. So the parisocial thing is even, it's real. right like placebo effect is real like all these things so I you know I got here early I went for a walk down the to those out street and then it's like just this beautiful view of the ocean and I it happens every time it's like it I know what it makes me sound like it's like oh this guy's like very unstable and unhinged and I'm I'd be the first to admit it's like I cry all the time now like I don't know what what it was just like maybe just seeing all the burned houses on the way here just knowing that

I haven't talked in a long time and there's no upside for me and I told you that I was like I go on these podcasts and I think um uh Howard Stern like 15 20 years ago and Joe Rogan the multiple multiple times I've been on a show I think are the only two radio shows podcasts that have ever just aired it without editing everyone else every time you you've ever heard me on any other podcast. It's either severely edited or they cut out huge chunks of it or they didn't even air it at all. So I know that, you know, and I know the world we live in today. And so there was something that went, you know, in the narcissistic traits where I'm like, I'm the fucking greatest artist in the world to like, oh my God, I'm a piece of shit. Like it just,

you know, it's just like this thing. And before when I was younger, it was like everyone has to see everything everyone has like i think i'm so important that everyone has to see everything that i create painting podcast book like whatever it is and then it went like my problem with my shit is it's all or nothing so it's hard for me to find the middle and so at this point now i'm like 49 i live a very quiet dad life you know i'm a family guy and there's just thousands of paintings no one's ever seen. There's hundreds of hours, if not thousands of hours of podcasts I've never put out. There's books I've written. There's TV shows, movies that I've made that. It's just, I don't, before the ego and the narcissist is like, you need to put this out because you're important

and everyone needs to see how important you are. And now the flip side to that, and maybe, maybe it's not healthy either is like, I know who I am. I'm comfortable with myself. And I don't, I don't need, you know, I'm artificial. blocked from everything. Like I don't have my own password to my social media. I don't, I have blocks on my phone so I can't access the internet. So it's like I do put all these things in the place to like protect myself because I'm a sensitive person. So, you know, as an artist, there's certain isms and stories. It's like, oh, starving artists. You're not going to make any money. Like struggling artists. There's these stories that people say and then you buy into them. Um, but I had, um, I had a few teachers along the way that, um, influenced me that, like, you know, there's like just certain moments happen in your life that live in your, your head rent free. And, uh, I have a lot of those. And so one of the stories is, you know, I'm 49.

It's like, you have to live in New York City. If you make it in New York, you make it anywhere. What the fuck am I doing in the 408? like this is what am I doing in Cooper team like like in my head the story's written that you're a fucking you know and I hadn't done shit right but in my head I'm like you're a greatest artist ever in Gilroy you know like what you know what I mean sorry no disrespect to Gilroy it's like the garlic capital of garlic fest garlic ice cream you know so there's a story in my head that's like I got to get to New York City right like I couldn't I couldn't get any like leeway in Los Angeles. I'm born and raised in L.A. and I just, I couldn't, you know. And, and so I, I, and now I look back if I do an inventory of the most creative explosions and the most periods of creativity in my life, it's always found in the mundane. It's always found in

cold temperatures. It's always found when there's no Wi-Fi. It's always found in a suburb of, It's like this story like, and I'm going to get to fucking New York and I'm going to be part of this movie. It's never that. Like, it's nice to romanticize that, but it's these moments of brilliance. Like, someone, whoever's listening right now,

they're like, I got this. And then I'm, there's like a, and then I'm going to get to this. And then I'm going to meet this person and I'm going to do it. And it's like, bro, I was fucking living in San Jose for seven years. I met this wonderful lady. She was my girlfriend for seven years.

But like, at that prime. I was 23. And I was like, and I was like, and, um, For me, the stakes are so high because I, so one of the teachers was my mother, right? My mother is hardcore, born-again Christian. So science does not enter the picture, right?

It's like blinders on, and through her I learned blind faith, right? Jesus Christ, that's it. There's no, there's no. So wait, you're telling me there was an actual arc with two animals and all the two animals and kill the other, and like, you know, and there was an atom and there was a snake that talked. He's like, yeah. Like, no hesitation. So she gave me that gift of like, like, hey, science, like facts.

No, blind, like just, holy shit. Like, nothing could falter her. And you're like, you're fucking stupid. You're ignorant. Like, and she's, but she's not. She's a bright woman. And now I look back and, like, I just met you. You're a brilliant guy.

And I sit here and I go, I know some of the smartest people on the planet. You know some of the smartest people on the planet. And they're all dumb. They're all like idiots. You're like, wait, you're a genius. You have photographic memory. You created this company. And you made some of the dumbest decisions I've ever seen.

You know, it's like, yeah, you're really good at this, but you don't know relationships. Or you don't know. So my mom taught me through just not anything but just watching her of just this absolute belief. And one of her beliefs was, my son, you know, this is some Jesus shit like me, who was like how I explained. This is just fucking neurotic mess, like growing up an unstable family and all that. Got fucking molested, every abuse, physical abuse, emotional abuse, like just chaotic because they were working. And I was just like left out in the wild, abandoned spiritual abuse, all this shit. and she's just like in the same way

she believed in God and Jesus she's like you're the one you're the greatest artist and I'm like five years old I'm like what the fuck you're talking about she's like no one's better than you no one's better than you you're the best you're gonna be the great you know your name's David like a lot of Koreans named after Bible she's like I named you after King David you're going to be a king and I go

but now in hindsight I'm like and yes King David beat Goliath but he also was a sex addict and had a lot of mental illness and, like, failed a lot, you know? She didn't tell me all that shit, you know? So she's raising me, she's brainwashing me. It's like, you're the best, you're the greatest. And then you, you know, I've met other artists where it's like everyone has their own paths. Some become great because the parents are like, you're nothing. You're a piece of shit.

You're the worst. You know, who the fuck do you think you are? I had the opposite. I had a mom just, it didn't matter. it didn't matter like but mom look at how horrible it's like you're the greatest and so it's like at some point i i hate myself i have like a so such a low self opinion of myself i'm i'm just down on myself just this kid just constantly getting bullied and like the world just using me and um and i and i'm like of course she says that she's my mom you know like but she just brainwashed me into

that I'm the best and I would as a as a trickster and a shape shifter I would you know what most artists lack is like an ability to communicate with words that's why they're such brilliant artists and that's why they can make great music and all this because they can't I can't you know like I'm gonna probably talk to you for you a few hours today and I'm gonna leave your feeling misunderstood I'm gonna be like fuck did I because I'm not in the same way I can like translate what I feel in a a painting it's very like it's like when people describe like ayahuasca or something they're like try to describe and they're like the words that you're trying to look for don't exist for what you

just went through so that's kind of the why why i get really self-judgmental but i'm like this woman and then you know my dad he loves me but he's like he's all right he's okay you know and i'd watch my mom who was just like a brutal business woman you know and um she would transform you know we, you know, I spent most of my life either poor or middle class, you know, like being wealthy came later. But so, you know, we were on welfare a lot or businesses burned down in L.A. riots. Like, I saw my parents struggle a lot, you know, but then they would do good. And they had the gamblers mentality, which a lot of Asians do.

And I have that too. Which is? Just, I don't know if this is true, but I heard that Asians, have the gambling gene more than other races, especially the women, like most women don't have the gambling gene the same way men do. So my mom would gamble like flipping houses or like not in a casino, but like just huge like huge swings, which you're like I grew up with a fearless woman, you know, but so we wouldn't have stuff. But then I would watch my mom open the trunk of her car and put on, like, fake jewelry, cubic zirconium

because she's about to go into a meeting and ask for a lot of money and just insane, lying. But hardcore Christian. So like the hypocrisy there. Like, I'm definitely, I'm trying to work on my own breaking out. So it's like, I'm going to be hypocritical in this interview. And at the end, hopefully I'll be able to correct any exaggerations that relies.

But that's a new tool that I have. I used to just, you know, whatever for the story, you know. I lie to tell the truth. you know, all those things. So I'd watch my mom transform from like a poor woman. The mentality was, she's like, my son is the greatest artist in the world. And like I'm, you know, I'm coming out of my Toyota hatchback

with the broken window, you know, but when I go into this meeting right now, you're not going to see that. So she transformed herself into this rich, powerful woman and just like get, like I'm just sitting there, a kid in the corner watching this woman get what she wants. I'm like, holy fuck, what the fuck was that performance? And then just coming out and I'm like, but mom, that's not like those things you said.

That wasn't real. That's not true. And she's like, yeah, they don't need to know that. And I'm like, but we just went to church and we learned the Ten Commandments and you're not supposed to lie. And it's like all this like confusion. And then I meet Sean Parker who, you know, just the sweetest kid, you know, just. he started emailing me right when he started Napster and goes, I have all the emails. I keep certain emails and voice messages, and I just, I just, that's my own nostalgia, but like,

I have a, I have a voicemail and a handwritten letter from Howard Stern saying, thank you for getting me into watercolors. I was like, dude, my fucking hero, like, yes, like, it's such a good feeling. I have a voice message from Pee Wee Herman, which I'll share later. And all my early emails with Sean Parker I kept just because it was, he's such an interesting, like, wonderful. I know like the image of him, but like I, we don't talk like as like we used to, but I still consider him a friend and I'm forever grateful to him. but so he I met him at a time when like I mean I don't even know how to this I mean like just complete disgrace and shame to my family you know it's like the immigrant story

talk to any immigrant why the fuck did you leave your home to come to another country because it was shitty there that's it you're not born in a country and you're like dude let's leave right the only reason why anyone's here is because it was shitty where you were at right so then they all it doesn't matter if you're asian or mexican whatever you came here for a better life and what does that mean work your ass off so we're we're in a nation of workaholics right this is an entire country of workaholics so my parents you know i didn't go through it but they're like japanese tanks rolled down the street and you know they have the typical like fucking war all that stuff. So they get over here and like born and raised in Los Angeles, you know,

it's like don't know who I am, don't know where I belong, just bullied, abandoned, abused over and over, and just, I didn't even really know the concept of suicide, but I hated myself. Like I couldn't live in my, like it felt like I was burning inside my own body. And so even maybe. fun of like like I listen to we have the same taste of music I listen to Minutemen minor threat you know I'm blasting down set inside out sound garden slaves and bulldozers I used to put on sound garden slaves and bulldozers punch myself as like just like I'm in my room a teenager's punching myself as hard as I can just to

like go into like a berser rage and I and I just back then like I found pornography and it was just so soothing, like, it was, like, getting high. Like, I would just masturbate, like, over and over again. So I'm, I'm, like, mastered. But I would do, like, weird self-harm, I guess the kids call it edging, but I could masturbate, but then not come, and then beat myself up. And I'm going through puberty, and I would go out and I'd shoplift spray cans, like, just at, you know, hardware stores.

And I'm listening to, you know, I would get, like, a, faith no more like in living colors just like some song and I would just like an OCD just repeat like some lyric in it I am a patient boy and I would just like go into like a trance and I would just go out and I would just fucking spray paint and I'm living at home so I'm not hiding this shit I come home my hands covered in black paint this is what we fucking came to this country for this is what why we we fucking left another country so you could come here and not be an art but You, like, you're a disgrace.

You're a disgrace to our race. You're, you know, and my dad would just, like, fucking throw me against the wall. And I'm like, I don't care, dude. I don't care what you're, like, do you understand? Like, I wasn't, like, actively trying to kill myself, but I didn't, like, do you understand that everything you care about? I don't care. Do you get that?

And, like, you know, you start the show, and I was laughing because it's like, hey, I'm Andrew. humor human heuberman scientist Stanford this and I'm like I don't care like I like Andy like that you know and then I was like you know what this is like a stolen valor um Sean Parker starting Facebook with Mark Zuckerberg you know I'm there at the beginning and uh so he brings me in and at the time when I first this is years the emails back and forth he's like I need Because the energy I was putting out at the time was what I'm telling you right now. Just I don't give a fuck. I don't care what you care about.

Like I don't, like it's just complete. I don't care if I go to jail. I don't care. Like I'm just painting on everything. And it's like graffiti. Graffiti is vandal. It's not a art. It's not graffiti artist or street art.

It's fucking vandalism. It's a crime. And people are telling me anyone out there doing street art, like there's so many rules. there's so many, like, what did you write? Did you used to tag or anything? No, but I did a good phone. If you skated, you definitely had like a... There were some kids in our crew.

Hubes? No. What did you tag? Come on. No, because I had friends who were like graffers and they were, they like boxed us out, you know? Oh. The undershadows kids. You never did graffiti?

No, but we can talk about this later. I want to hear from you now. But later we should talk about orphan and the undershadows crew, which is a kind of a thing in the Bay Area. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I heard of them. Yeah, he was a good friend of mine. But anyway, I didn't graffiti. Okay.

But I grew up my grip tape. All right, that's good. But no, I wasn't a tagger, wasn't a graffiti guy. Yeah, so I'm out doing like that. And, you know, like, you know, we can have like a conversation about creativity and this and that. And it's like, I can't, it's very hard to talk about, it's because it's like, can you teach a craft? Can you teach a skill? Can I teach you to paint the Mona Lisa?

Yeah, I know how to do all that. I know how to, like, I went to school. Like, I taught myself. I watched videos. Like, you could teach yourself how to paint something to make it look like something. That's a teachable skill. But creativity, where does that come from? Are you just born with it?

Is it from deprivation? It's like a, you know, I can only share what my path is. And it's like the embarrassment, like, you're Asian, you need to get a 4.0, you need to get into UCLA, you need to be a doctor or a lawyer. And it's like me, I'm on the middle child, me and my two brothers, like long hair, listening to heavy metal and punk. Why are you doing that white shit, you know, like, and then there's got Asian kids that are into heavy, you know, it's like there's no identity, right? And then it's just like lost, just like what the fuck is, you know, like we don't belong anywhere. just, like the Asian depictions in media is like long duck dong.

Asians have small dicks. They can't drive. They're good at math. It's just nothing's good, right? And I'm like, I, you know, I'm just trying to figure out my way in this world. And I remember, Sean just was attracted to, like, whatever little art I'd start getting some noticed in juxtapose. And I was starting to do graffiti everywhere.

and he's like, I want that. Whatever that is, I want that. Like, I want to be part of that. And I said, and I forgot what my painting. It was, like, right when I couldn't sell a painting, and then all of a sudden they were selling for a couple thousand. And he's like, and he was a teenager still. And he goes, my, my, I want your art,

but the problem is I'm being sued right now for a trillion dollars because every single song is a, is a lawsuit. You know, I mean, whatever. ended up the way it ended up. But I remember he goes, I'm getting, he showed me a screenshot or whatever. He's like, I'm being sued for one trillion dollars right now, so I can't really afford your art, but like, I'm going to get it. You know, so we started this relationship. And he would send me these crazy, like, abstract texts of emails of what he wanted me to pay. And then, and then he started another company called Plaxo. And he's like, no, and then finally,

you're catching me in the South Bay. You know, I met this girl. we fell in love and I moved to San Jose just the most culturally dead place and everyone's like rollerblading working at Apple or MySpace or eBay or you know some some tech startup and they're like we're cool because we have a trampoline and a you know we have a like a kitchen area where you can have all the red bull and snacks you want and we have bunk beds so we and like that's all so you could just keep working you know and so I meet Sean and he's like dude we're starting this company called Facebook and like we finally have some money and like dude this is he's like where are you at and he didn't know all this but I had just gotten out

of prison I was in jail in Japan because I had beaten up a undercover security guard I was 27 when I got and I owed everyone money I owed my girlfriend money I owed and so I needed money bad and I was in like a lot of trouble I like was I didn't know how how I was going to pay everyone back because it's really hard to sell a painting, you know. But my paintings did sell once in a while, and they were starting to get pretty expensive. And then all the art that I did in jail, I used to work for Vice Magazine.

I say it worked, but I never got paid. But, you know, I... They didn't pay you? No, I think people, if anyone's listening, as a little side tangent, is... And it's going to definitely sound like OCD like I'm keeping your list, and maybe I am, because I don't think about it,

I was sinning the other day and I go they all owe me everyone I've ever worked for like people like I gotta get paid like someone develops a skill like I'm good at songwriting or this or that and then they go

well I got like the young people's men well that's my craft I got to get paid I go I never got paid I work for Nike Levi's Ruka giant robot vice fucking even my friend Steve A.O. and like just all every like 88 rising if I sit here I'll name everyone but like either they didn't pay me my what they said or I had to threaten to kill them for them to send me or or

they just never paid me you know and I met Gavin McInnis when he started vice and he had seen some of the art that I did in giant robot he saw that I went to the Congo he saw like and he's like hey and it was all punk rock advice when it was like the big format and he's He's like, dude, and he just believed in me. I don't know what he saw. He's like, dude, send me a drawing of cops beating of this, and I did it fast. He's like, I need it by tomorrow. And I was like, I can do it.

And then he's like, he just was like, hey, write me a story about some shooting in L.A., Korea, town, gangster shit. And I go, but I'm not, he's like, just do it. And at one point, that was another figure that was resonated my mom of, like, the rules. reality doesn't apply. I'm sitting there going, wait, but I'm not a journalist. I didn't fact-checked anything. And there was some issues of vice where I wrote five different articles under a woman's name,

a black guy's name, you know, like just made up names, articles just to fill up pages. And I would have done the comic section, illustrations, music review, street, you know, fashion, you know, the do's and don'ts. And I'm just like, you can do that. And like, I had already been groomed for that because of my mom. It's like, no, reality doesn't apply. You just, my mom thinks I'm the best artist. And now here's, you know.

So Sean's like, okay. And so I'm in what I feel is like purgatory, the 408 San Jose Milpedus. You know, I'm just like, what the fuck is this? Like, and I'm telling myself, I got to get to, when I get to New York, it's like this golden gate, like, End of the Golden Road, like Wizard of Oz, like, when I get there, then someone's going to get discovered, and then someone's going to be like, and, and, um, because what is it? You know, like, what, like, people are like, what is, and I go, I am a, like, I can be a hater. I can be a loving, sweet, selfless person. I could be like a very hard, judgmental hater to myself. And, and so I take this so seriously. Like, what we're doing here today is, talking, I mean, it's mostly me talking, I could see that, but it's like, we're having a conversation, but I think without sounding, it's like, I think it's important. That's why I'm here. Like I, like I said, like, I'm like, why? I feel like I trust you even though I just met you, but like, yeah, I fucking puked down the street because I get, I go, what's the upside? Like, I'm going to talk and then maybe I say something that I didn't mean or I say it the wrong way or it gets clipped weird or edited. And I go, and I go, I think it's important. I want to come. I'm going to talk to you. And that's how I feel about my art. So what is that?

What is art? What is creativity? And for me, it's like, I think sports are very gay, especially skateboarding. Like, if I never played sports, I would have never seen another man's penis. You know, like, and then in my time in sports, it was very rough because I wasn't, I told myself, any athlete that I paint with, they always start saying the same thing. I suck at drawing. And I go, why did you do that? Why did you immediately shoot yourself?

Like, who said that? Did someone else say that or did you say that? They start with saying something negative. And I go, and then I go, that's exactly what I say if they try to teach me how to throw a free throw. I go, oh, this is going to suck. And they go, why did you do that? And so for me, growing up, I grew up in a lot of black neighborhoods where the second, you know, I don't know how to play basketball, but the second I try and I fuck up, it's like, look at Chinese kid, fucking try. And so I go, all right, you know what?

I'm not even going to try it, you know? and it's like well you should have just come at like five in the morning when no one was there you know but like i was so sensitive i was like i don't want to so i did things in the you know it's art is a solitary sport for the most part you know i'm not there's no rob there there's it's just me like like like even in the thing it's like this like don't look at my sketchbook and but in here i can and fuck up and fix a race, whatever. But so, like, in sports, you know, it's like you're slapping guys' asses. You're taking showers with them.

You're doing all this, like, male bonding stuff. You're just spending a lot of time with other men, right? Like, and I'm like, oh, God, like, what is the feeling? I'm trying to isolate the feeling. What am, like, what? And I remember, because I don't, like, I tell this stuff not to be like, feel sorry for me. I'm a victim. I don't feel like that.

I mean, this, I'm just telling you, I'm telling you what happened. And part of it is you do like, what would you rather, would you rather someone beat you up for five minutes or have the whole world read your diary? You know, like these kind of, and luckily I had both happen. You know, I've been beaten to an inch of my life. I've had, like, I've had broken bones. I've been stabbed. I've been burned. I've been, like, everything physically you can think of, and I'm still here, right?

So there's not much, like, I, like, because I have my mom's delusion, like, when I talk to Joe, and he's shorter than me, but I, I know he could probably, like, logically, I know he could probably kick my ass. I have no fighting background. But in my head, I'm like, I'm pretty sure I could kick his ass. And he would fucking, and I, that's just the way I walk through. life. Like, I still believe in Santa Claus. People go, I can't believe I just said that. I don't I think that's the first time publicly I've ever said that. We're coming up on, uh, no, I know,

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I'm really enjoying the new berry flavor in particular. It tastes great, but then again, I do love all the flavors. If you'd like to try AG1 and try these new flavors, you can go to drinkag1.com slash Huberman to claim a special offer. Just go to drinkag1.com slash Huberman to get started. I just remember there's, I don't know, it's changed now, but I remember when I was a kid, it was around six or seven when they start going, there's no fucking Santa. But I was eight, and I was like, and they're like, how dumb are you? And I understand this reflects back to my mom in Jesus. I go, and they go, but you've literally never got any presents from Santa.

And I'd go to shame. I go, because I'm a bad kid. I cussed. I was like, I stole stuff from the supermarket, you know, like. And they're like, hey, fuckface, Santa's not real. And I just was like, but he is. I believe that he is. And I believe, I go, there's, there's him not giving me a present.

is like because I put him in this God category maybe he's not God but maybe he's a god like a demigod or something and they go how is he how does he know if you're naughty or nice I go telepath how does he how does he get every fucking present to every kid in that time I'm like oh he's immune he can multiply he can make copies of himself how does he get through that tiny chimney and go teleport like I just it's not even a question I just know I believe it and I don't care how How stupid you think, like, I guess this is me coming out with my Santa Claus, but it's just like, I just believe that. And you can't say anything to make me not believe that. That's my blind faith that I got from my mom.

So like every Christmas, I'm almost 50. I'm a fucking middle-aged man that, and I go, maybe this is the year. I'm going to. But now I look back and I go, the gift he gave me of giving me nothing gave me everything, right? So I'm sitting there and I'm drawing, but I have that story in my head too. Like, I suck. Oh, fuck. That doesn't look like Batman.

Oh, his arm looks weird, you know? And then at some point, to this day, all the physical and emotional pain, sorry, just the physical pain. Like, it passes. I've broken bones. I've had my face just pummeled, like just where you wouldn't reckon, disfigured. And but it passes. And if I think back, I don't remember it. But the pain that stays is like heartbreak, you know, betrayal, abandonment.

And I just remember my dad would make us keep a journal because he just wanted us to start learning how to write. And it started with, if I take you guys to the movies, you have to write a movie review. And it was like we were eight years old, seven years old, just, you know, Today we saw a karate kid. Johnny got chased by skeletons. The end. You know, it was like a little kid, you know, but he's like, you have to do it. Goonies was cool, you know, so we kept the thing.

But then he never asked to read it. He just wanted us to do it. And I was like, oh. So I started like getting more brave. I was like, I really like this girl at school. And like, and I would just start getting really vulnerable and open and just knowing. because my brothers don't give a shit like but then the thought of like what if someone ever read this so i was like opening myself up and just letting and i was like oh my god like it felt so good like

like i can't tell anyone like i'm having these kind of feelings or like you know like i fucking hate dad you know like something you know whatever and i i would take the bottom drawer out of my desk out and I would hide it under there. And I shared a room with my brother, so I always did it when he, you know, I thought I was being secretive. And I was somewhere between seven, eight, nine, it just, you know, as you get better at writing, and I got more, once I got more comfortable knowing that no one, I just started writing everything. Like, my brother fucking fart smell. Like I wish, you know, just like everything I would write. Just, just completely. And I came one day and I saw both my brothers on the bed reading it and it I remember my face just like it felt so hot like

like I felt like someone to just like ultimate betrayal and and it was like being naked that's why I bring up the like I felt more naked than being in a room full of naked guys showering like slapping like it was the most vulnerable like they were being so mercilessal ha you like her and you did that I can't believe you you you know because I remember I wrote everything in that journal. And I thought I was going to die from shame and embarrassment. And they, you know, like the way kids are, brothers can be. It was merciless.

And they made fun of me for years for that. And in the same way my face was disfigured and I have had physical abuse and all that, I lived through it. And I was like, I'm still here. And so why the fuck am I going to be a pussy when I draw? When I draw, no more like, I'm going to draw Batman like this artist or that artist. Oh, I'm going to draw like, you know, like, okay, that's fine. You're like trying to figure out how to work with tools and that's fine.

Skill craft, great. But like this, like showing you, like, so there's, I had been trained now for heartbreak, right? Like, a lot of artists spend their whole life being not validated, bullied, rejected, and then finally they figure out how to draw something where people are like, yes, we like that. And so they never grow. They do that same verse, that same flow forever. And then you got people like Andre 3000, they're like, I don't care. I'm going to, I don't care what, you know, I'm going to do flute shit.

It's like, well, we don't like that. And it's like, I don't care. I'm an artist. I'm going to, you got someone like Flea who's like, I'm going to just do performance art. And I'm like, I don't even like half that shit, but I just love them because they're, and I go, how fucking brave is that? How brave is that? But I remember just to this day, right? I am a very successful established artist.

And yet today, there's people that are like, I guess the fucking worst art I've ever seen. That's the, that's, and I, and I go, cool. Like, but, but if you don't have that background. of just having your heart ripped out. It is the most painful thing to put yourself out on a, like to pour your, that's you, that's your soul. And someone's like, and then especially if you're trying to sell it, like, no thanks, you know. So to have a guy like Sean Parker, who's younger than me, but just not even the art, he's just like, I like you, like whatever that is. And then I want to change the world with this kid that I met Mark Zuckerberg.

And so I meet him with his flip-flops and, you know, I meet the whole crew. And I go, what do you want me to do? He's like, I want you to fucking paint everything. I want people to be scared. I want investors to be scared. I want everyone to just be like, we're not MySpace. We're not eBay. We're not.

I want them to be horrified when they come in here. I want you to just fucking paint the microwave, like everything. And I go indoors, right? And he goes, yeah. And I go, all right. So just, like, cover up your computers and then they're like, no, we're going to be working here. And I'm like, you know how toxic these chemicals? Like, I work in spray paint.

Like, I have brain damage because of this shit. Like, I have, like, memory issues. They're like, we don't care. You know, they were like young. They're like, fuck the world, hack the world, like all that shit. Hack the world. They love, say, you know. So I was there and they would be like, let's fucking blast daft punk.

Like, I don't, this is a world I'm not, you know, I like going. into different worlds and they're like we're gonna blast daft punk because i guess it's like something with the repetitiveness and the cody and we're gonna do these hackathons where we just fucking hack into shit and fucking it was punk rock it was like a very nerdy punk rock but they're like we don't give a fuck like and i like that spirit but they were such nerds and they were so earnest there was a you've never heard people talk like that where they're talking they're like and we're going to change the world and i'm like i'm into that whatever that is and they think thought they were so cool when they thought they were giving me a Stanford email.

I go, I, I, I, I, I, I, I'm not on social media. Like, I never, I'm a Luddite. I don't, I'm the last to, whatever new technology, I'm like, all right, like, I've never touched AI, any of that. And, and so I was like, you guys are trying to be like, MySpace, but MySpace is, it's already here. Like, for the young people listening, like, there was no Facebook, there was no Instagram.

It was my space. It was just dominated. And they're like, yeah, but we're, we're fucking MySpace for Ivy League, you know. Oh, that's right. In 2007, that's right, because that was a post-off. In order to get Facebook, you had to have an Ivy League or a Stanford email. Because technically Stanford's not in the Ivy League. So you're not the only one, motherfucker, stolen valor.

So I love it. So I forgot what it was. It was like Chowie at Stanford, EDU. And but like I remember he gave it. Probably still exists. I don't know. He's, he, I remember him giving it to me. Like, it's something I wanted.

I was just painting, he's like, Dave, you don't have to go. I'll get you a Stanford email, and then you could be part of Facebook. I'm like, I don't want to be, I don't, I don't care. I don't care what you, like, you want to be, you and Mark and all these guys want to be in this, like, and they're like, he was like confused because he's like, you don't want the, whatever, like, respect and whatever comes with having a Stanford, and I go, no, I hate. education. I hate learning. I hate teachers. I hate like, what the fuck you're talking about? And he was like, I go, why don't you just make it for everybody? And he's like, oh, like, you know, the thing is like, it was so funny when the David Fincher movie came out because it's just an awesome movie, but it's just, I was there for all of it and just did not. Like some of the facts are

right, but it just didn't go down that way, you know? But so, so Mark is like a genius. And And Sean, I mean, similar to my mother, it's like, I think Naomi's still there. It was like Naomi, Mark, Sean, Dustin, and me just, like, gassing them out. They're just trying to code, like, and I'm, like, listening to all their conversations, and I'm, like, telling them how nerdy they are. I'm like, bro, make it for everybody. Don't, you know, like, and they're like, and I would listen in on all their conversations. And they're like, oh, so fucking cool, Dave Cho's painting our office.

And I was like, oh, they like me, you know, like I'm being validated, not just by my mother, you know. And so, you know, I do everything backwards and we start to discuss payment, you know. And at that time, I had once in my life sold a painting for like 10 grand. And it was like a fluke. And that's another story that I could tell about rejection and all that. So I just did some dumb, ignorant math. I was like, well, that painting was this big, and I was like, 60 grand, you know, and I needed that. I needed that to pay off everyone.

And then at the time, up until going to jail, like, I had been a thief. I was doing a lot of stealing to support my, like, I was like, I'm, graffiti doesn't pay the bills, you know. Stealing your paint? Stealing everything. Was Facebook office painted with stolen cans? Probably, probably. Yes. Yes.

My graph friends, graph, graffiti for those I don't know. They were like world-class crooks. Yeah, yeah, of course. Because they were always stealing pens and paint and, you know, I mean. Exactly. I mean, it's like it doesn't pay the bills, you know. Yeah. So what had transferred, you know, the nature of addiction,

if you don't get to the root of it, it just keeps jumping, right? Like whack-a-mole. So it whack-a-mole into, my my background which is watching my parents take huge so i got into gambling so i was just like it there was every paycheck anything it was always i got to figure out a way because gambling feels like stealing and it's you know and i sat there and i and people were just like you work at facebook like that's you know my friends that aren't in that academia they're just like that's like the shitty my space you know like look at the font look at the you know all the artsy credit like

look at the designs the fucking you know what is that the name facebook come on like that's the most creative you know and i said i think uh i'm going to ask them if i could get shares in the company you know um you understood did you understand equity in that whole thing i don't understand anything and it's like i have shares in other companies that are all worthless right like It was just, it was growing up with my mom watching her that if I didn't have that, like I just, and I don't even understand that shit. I just, I remember being with, having lunch with Zuck's parents and like, you know, he comes from a nice family.

And I think Yahoo or Microsoft, someone had offered him right in the beginning a billion dollars for it. And he's like, no thanks. And he's still sleeping on the fucking mattress on the ground, eating Doritos. And I'm like, like, you know, I'm trying to like. pay my fucking all my friends back and I'm like oh he don't give a shit you don't care about money like he cares about like what he cares about it's like such a singular focus he's like I want to fucking disrupt the I want to bring the whole world together it was you know youthful idealism

and I remember uh going to work one day I just loved working there because I don't get jobs like that where they're like paint everything like like you're here like doing this and I'm painting around like I'm painting on everything and and the best part is that they didn't even like what I was painting like Mark would come and was like what is that dude like Sean's like Dave you know that other thing you did I saw at the art show can you and I was like you didn't ask for that you said fucking destroy like you said scare people when they walk you know um as I recall there's like a there was like a big primate like monkey with jagged teeth and so yeah I was I was

you know and I was gassing myself out you know like I'm like doing all that shit without a mask on. It's all going right into my brain. I'm like, whoever know, whatever, toxic spray pain fumes does your brain, and there's no fresh air coming in. And I remember Sean Parker just bronze, just bronze skin, like $200 haircut, custom suit. And I go, who are you, man? And he was doing what my mom was doing. He was just fucking doing pushups and like, and I was like, this skinny little nerd, like just, you know, just, He was like handsome and I go, oh, this is what my mom used to do before she went into a bit. She used to fucking, and he's like, oh, we're going to get, we're going to fucking raise so much.

Like he was, and I go, holy fuck, this guy is so sick, you know. And he transformed his physical appearance because he was about to go into like serious fundraising. And that's when I met the PayPal guy and Peter Thiel and like just, I was like, this guy's fucking, you know, like people give all the credit. to mark but i'm like sean guy was he was an artist in you know and also like out of control which like that attracted each other and then he was there when they got when he got fired and all that stuff but i remember like the impact to that had on me like just wow like you heard you've heard the fake it till you make it right it's like i i know i'm not the best artist in the world But my mom thinks so.

But Sean Parker, like, other people think so. But I'm like, but that's whatever. They're just kissing my ass or whatever. And then there can be a switch. And I think it's like sick and tired of being sick and tired or enough is enough. Like I just can't take it anymore. It's like, I can't live like this anymore. I feel like I'm trapped.

I feel like. And so then it's like. Oh, you can't travel. You need money for that. Well, I'm going to hitchhike then. I'm going to hop on a freight train. I saw the entire world with nothing, no money. Like, well, it must be nice to be rich. I go, I'm rich now.

I've had nothing my whole life, and I just had to fucking fight for it. And, like, what I recommend it? Like, a lot of it was illegal. I spent a lot of time in jail. But also, jail didn't hurt me. I lived. And I spent some time that I got to learn who I am. And so it's just to piece out the skills you learn for what's creativity,

what's business what what aided me and helped me at this time in my life that which no longer aids me now and how to like because my the other thing i learned from my mom is just just adapts oh our business just burned down in the la riots and instead of like sitting there's like okay now we're doing this now we're doing this now we're doing this and i'm like i remember getting a job in beverly hills right after high school i was 18 1994 and it was at that this weird comic book, like a high-end comic book store called Comics Top Hits. I'm not a comic book guy. I love comics. And I remember, I beg the guy for a job. I'm like, please, please.

And he's like, all right, fine, the customer seemed like, because I would just hang out there and talk to the customers anyways. And I remember one day Stan Lee showed up. And I'm like, fuck, Stan Lee, like, my hero, you know. And he sat there and people were bringing him Darkwing Duck, Batman. like all the things he he didn't work on hey marvel fans and he just signed everything and i'm like i was like the guy managing the line that day and i'm looking at his hair plugs and i go you fucking like you didn't fucking invent batman you're you know and at the end of the day i built up enough confidence to you know as everyone left and we're packing up i'm like stand

dude you didn't invent batman why the fuck you signed that guy's book and you're like did you see their faces did you see like they were so happy and you're like they were so happy and Like, why would I, why would I get in the way of their happiness? And I'm like, holy shit, dude. It's like, yeah, don't correct people. And I thought about that. Like, everywhere I go in the world and there's like, Qing Chong, China. This, I remember being in Africa and these kids were just chasing us everywhere.

And our translator was a French, Vietnamese guy. And he was like, Dave's Korean. I'm Vietnam. And it's like, you're just, they don't give a shit, dude. They don't give a fuck, and I remember just the things I'm talking about is like watching Sean Parker's shape shift, watching my mom's shape shift, watching, act as if you belong. Act as if you have a seat at the table. It's like, I know that's part of being artists as being like shy, nerdy, self-conscious. It's like, just pretend like you're the best artist in the world.

Like you just show up and you're like put like, this is the journey for. from their head to heart, this is a, I like when you talk because you make sense. But there's, and that's why the smartest people in the world are the dumbest fucking idiots I've met because they try to apply logic to everything. And you're applying logic to spiritual problems. You're applying logic to emotional problems. And it's like, how's that working out for you? It's not.

It's not, you're never going to outthink a feeling. You're never going to outsmart a feeling. Like, you're like, wait, these people are like, why? do that? Why would you do that? And I'm like, because it's not logical. It's, it's an emotional thing. It's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's not logic based. It's emotion based. It's mentally ill based. It's spiritual base. Like, you can't fuck with people's religion or what they have faith in or, and all this stuff. So I'm watching, I remember going, Stefan correcting the black kids that he's Vietnamese is making them feel stupid and they're getting

angrier. The kids that think I'm Bruce Lee and I just confirm that I'm Bruce Lee are getting happy, right? It's like, people are dumb out there. That's fine. I don't care. I'm dumb. I'm stupid. It's like when someone corrects me, it makes me feel shame and dumber. But then if no one corrects me, it's like, then it's my own shit to figure that out or not, right? So watching these people, like very successful people in my life, my mom, she's like unstoppable, right? Anything the world throws at her, she just goes, okay, I guess we're doing this now. Like, she doesn't hang on. She's like, hang on tightly, let go lightly, right? It's just like, okay, we were real estate people, now we're doing herbal life. Oh, that happened. Mark Hughes died. Okay, now we're doing

this. Like, she just goes like that, like, adapts to any situation. And like right now, I get a call a week from all artists, creative types that there, it's, you know, and we don't have to have an AI talk i don't i would rather not have any i talk but it's armageddon right everyone's like i spent my life doing sound engineering and now it's gone just like the guy who would do the like hand letter this and then photoshop boom your job's gone the carl zeisland's going the iPhone and now photographer like it's just it's gone like you could sit there and start complaining or you could just keep adapting and so i think true creativity you can't contain if you're if you're open and you're ready to get naked and you're ready to you know

People are like, oh, do you have to suffer to be a great artist? Absolutely, but you've already suffered enough. It's already done. Like, whatever happened to you in your childhood, that's enough fuel for the rest of it. You don't have to continually, but I see myself and others at times, like, I hopefully am better now, but I see people continually putting themselves in the situation to, like, suffer more and more and more. And I just remember the shame of my, like, it's just these. things they're they're you know decades ago but they're still like my dad just like throwing me

across like we left another country so you could be a criminal event like just he was like I'll just kill us all now we were in the car leaving the police station he's like I'm gonna crash the car and I was like I was in the back like kind of disassociating numb crying like feeling mixed emotions going from like victim to sorry to like well fuck you then and you know all everything in between and then um just going i accept now oops i accept sorry am i close enough to the microphone you're good am i close to the microphone ah um just going i i'm i'm going to choose to believe what my mom believes in me i'm the greatest artist on the planet i was in my 20s i was like fuck it like going into galleries looking at comic books and um can i tell you one quick fuck

you sean parker story so at the at the time i was doing facebook like things were happening like i had a vice show selling my jail art which gave me a little bit of cash i was starting to work for hidey flies to do a erotic mural for her sex shop in hollywood and i had just gotten a job to do Jay-Z Lincoln Parks Mash-up album cover and it's like I needed the money and it was just like it things are, I was like

it's starting to happen like things are you know and and this is while I was doing the Facebook thing so they hadn't blown up yet you know and they gave me the job and I'm like the biggest rock band in the world and the biggest rapper in the world

are doing an album together and they want me little me to do the I got felt so on I mean fucking butcher the art I gave them the art and they just made it

look shitty they put a shitty font on it they put a like they did fake graffiti spray I was like what the fuck did whatever

anyways that's a whole other thing but um I'm like cool like what's that gonna pay like

you know like and they're like two grand I'm like wait you know it's like this one day I'm gonna make it and my name's gonna be in lights

and and I knew other artists. So, like, Mir did the limp biscuit cover. Shepard Ferry did. So I knew them well enough where I was like, hey, guys, am I getting fucked right now? And they're like, no, that's typical. I go, that's what they pay artists for, I mean, because back in the day when I was doing art, paintings, whatever, galleries or illustrations, that was the range, 200 to like 2,000 at the most, if you're doing like a cover or something. But I'm like an album cover for. for and they're like no that's what they pay and I was like damn dude I thought this was this is

big time you know and so I negotiated for that at the same time I'm working at Facebook and I drew this crazy cover and they're like yeah that's for the rights for the album cover right so then I don't know the album comes out and then they use the art everywhere they use it on billboards like friends reading comic books and it's like oh they did a full page ad and I go like for illustration that's a separate fee right It's like, here's the rights to use on the album cover. Here's for advertising, right? And so I'm talking to, I don't know anything, right?

I'm a fucking horrible street artist. Oh, I call myself a street artist. Delete that from the microphone. Sorry. So I'm, you know, and you could like bleep the names or whatever, because I clearly remember. So I call Warner Brothers and I go, hey, can I talk to whoever's in legal or whatever and I go yeah I talk to my friends who are also artists that are more successful

and they said there's a separate fee I should be getting for billboards you know bus bench usage magazine editorial you know you know magazines used to be big you know Tower Records virgin register and I remember the arrogance on this guy Chip he was like their head legal he doesn't work there anymore and he's like and I remember the way he talked to me felt like my child like just made me feel he's like you're some shitty graffiti like who the fuck are you know like why am i wasting my time talking to you and i go well and he started like just hitting me with legalese and i go hey i'm raising my hand right now you can't say i'm raising my hand saying i don't understand what you're saying can you please talk to me and like can you dumb dumb down like you're

trying you're like trying to beat me up with words right now i'm just saying i you know it should be an additional 10 grand 15 grand for what you guys did I'll be happy with another five or, you know, just like trying to talk. And he's like, I don't know who the fuck you think you are. And it was like very condescending. And I remember the arrogance of how I was like, I could be recording this call or, you know, but he was just. And I was like, for a guy named Chip, that's such a weird, you know, you could come at us with lawyers. You could, like, and you may be even right.

But guess what? You're fucking with Warner. Like, you'll never win. Like, you will never get another dime out of us. I was like, holy fuck that, what a fucking, and like I said, like, if you're going to be, like, people are like, oh, I love painting, then just paint. Like, oh, I want to be, it's like, you know how fucking hard it is to make money as a creator? It's like, you got to fight, you got to get a thick skin and you better be ready to, like, I had to threaten Nike with blowing up their entire parking lot before they paid me. I was like, you asked me for these drawings.

I did them. I delivered them on time and you're giving me the checks in the mail. and I called, like, Wyden and Kenton, you know, whatever, in Oregon, and I was like, I live in L.A. It's going to take me this many hours to drive, and I'm going to, I don't know which car is yours. I'm going to blow up every car. The check was in the mail the next day. I'm like, why did I have to do that? Why did I have to turn into my mom to get the, but most artists go, and then they just get fucked over, right?

So that's part of being an artist, is getting fucked over and not getting paid what you deserve, blah, blah, blah. So I'm, like, obviously sensitive and painting, like, in a bad mood. And Sean's like, dude, what's up, Dave? Are you? And I told him what I just told you. And he's like,

you know, and Facebook has like big money behind it now. It's growing. He's like, oh, we got a multi-million dollar deal with Warner Brothers tomorrow in the meeting.

And I was like, he goes, check this out. So he has the meeting with Warner Brothers. And they're like full, like, you know, everyone's at the long table.

And they're like, oh, we want to advertise with Facebook. And this is the new, this is the new world. And they're like, okay, cool. And it's like, you know,

it's like millions of dollars. or whatever, hundreds of thousands of dollars. And he's like, yeah, but that guy, Chip, fucked with my friend Dave Cho. So we're not doing shit with you guys. And he just, and I was like, this guy's my dog forever. Like, like, how, like, just does not, no fuck's given, right? I was like, I cried. I gave him a hug.

I was like, don't fuck with me. Don't fuck with me. Like, it felt so good. It felt so fucking good. I was like, and then I found out you got five. and all that shit, it's like, I was like, yes, sometimes the little guy wins, you know? Like, it felt so good. I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function.

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So I got all the typical shame and all that. And to be fair, if you're my dad and you fucking escape the war and famine to raise your family in America and you see your kid stealing pain at Home Depot to graffiti dicks on walls, like you're going to, you're not going to. So I give them that, you know. But I just, I was, I felt I didn't know where I belonged. You know, I'm like I, I couldn't process, maybe I have dyslexic. I was in school and it just, I couldn't, none of the information, I was like, this is so hard. Like, people, like, I would try really hard to get a C, right? Where other people were like, oh, okay, you know, X.

I was like, why is there an X in math? And they were like, Dave, and they dumb it down and dumb it down. I'm like, I'm retarded. I think I need to go to that class. Like, I'm, like, I felt, like, I felt, because both my brothers have, like, really high IQs. And I'm like, I'm stupid. like I you know so I felt really small in that area and I and I made up the story like I suck at sports I go so this this is it this is all I'll ever be good at so I and and now I'm going to fully buy in to what my mom's saying and because I grew up with the Asian work ethic like I'm like it's not a fit I am good I am gonna be the best I was like I just adopted I am the best artist in the world and to that power of thought like I sat down and I am and I'd go to museum.

I studied everything. I studied comic book art, cereal boxes, museums, fine art. Why does this? I just got into the business side of art, the creativity, fucking loose watercolors, like tiny, detailed pen drawing, like everything. And I was like, and I was like overcomp. I'm like, I'm going to be good at all of it.

Oil painting. Like there's so people go, what kind of artist? I'm an artist, everything. When I talk, when I make music, like I am going from, I'm a piece of shit. I suck to like, like, you know, not healthy, but, you know, I was like, I am our God, you know, like, and so I was like in my 20s just like brain, like waking up and then like that's not how I naturally woke up. I woke up like, oh, fuck, you know, and I'd wake up and I'd have to put that

on like, you're the greatest, you know, like hypnotizing myself. You're the best, you're the fucking best. You're the greatest, you know. Were you doing any like reading books? Because at the time when you and I are basically the same age. Back then, it wasn't a lot about like neuroscience and this and that and like actualization. It was all kind of, you know, hidden away. But there was this, there were, you know, there was like the Tony Robbins type stuff. And there was this idea and infomercials and stuff that like that you could program your mind. Sounds like you just basically took all that on without any of that.

Yeah, I didn't read any of that stuff. I stole lots of books and I would read a lot of. of pornography. I guess this kind of I could fit my Pee We Herman story if we're talking about publishing. It's hard to talk about this because kids ask me all the time, like, how'd you make it in art and like nothing I did applies to today? You know, it's like, I went to Kinko's. I would have to spend my money or figure out how to do that copy thing, that trick to make more copy because color copies are 99 cents. It's like who has, so I'd have to pick which one of my paintings were the best, make these, like, mini color copy packets. So that's $10. And then

I would go to the newsstand and write the address, like Rolling Stone, like all the magazines that had prestige and like CFPain, Kent Williams, Barron Story, like all these amazing illustrators that would work for a Time magazine, Rolling Stone, Playboy, like they would all use. So I would open the front page where it had the heading of art director, and I would write write it down and the new stand guy's like I sound like a boomer right now like you know it's like who the fuck like there's kids listening right now that's magazine what's that you know but that's what I have to do and I would be like which magazine do I want to send this $10 packet that I just and then I have to mail it to and hopefully like they get that letter and not some other department you know

and then you just rejection letter after you know like sorry sorry sorry and so I'm I'm I'm sitting down and I'm like I'm ingesting all this and I have the I have the fire and I'm like sitting down and I go that like what why is that drawing successful why do you know and of course there's tons of insider trading and corruption in the art world but I didn't know that at the time right it's like oh that guy's dad owns fucking water like that guy you know so I would just sit there and I would be like that guy drew this much. I'm going to draw 10, like, that guy did this, and I'm going to draw, you know, and I, and I just, some of my paintings, all my paintings back then had, like, at least seven layers, if not more, just layering and layering and dancing. It was me, it's like a musician that's like, I have to, like, I saw a thing with Rick Rubin and Flea doing, give it away now, and he was just like, you know what he can do, but he was like, just do, there, like, just play less. and back then it wasn't it was like I need to show everyone what I'm capable of which is I can draw better than you I can paint I have to show you that

now I don't care but back then it was and it isn't that art is a it's not who can put the most lines down or you know and so I'm I'm trying to I'm trying to like and it was just everyone has their own path but I remember year 2000 I'm doing graffiti

I'm getting some gigs to do murals You know It's just slowly starting And someone contacted me at Marvel Comics And I was like man I didn't even try and like this is it This is my dream And then we want you to draw the X-Men

But like a cool Cool X-Men I'm like fuck I didn't even have to go To Portfolio Day I didn't have to you know And I go oh I knew if I just kept putting my shit out there You know But I'm you know

I'm what 23 at the time You know And I start drawing it and I guess they fired me or they didn't fire me they just decided to use a different artist but they never told me so I'm still drawing it and I'm

you know I'm a passive aggressive angry kid already and I didn't email some people had emails but a lot like a lot of artists hadn't this is the beginning of the internet like people weren't using it the way they do now and I remember it was like the first message board where my friends were like hey Dave you got fired off the X-Men book

and I go how did you know And they go, you don't use the internet? I go, what is that? And they showed us, and I felt shame again. I was like, oh, my God. Like, I was so excited to, like, there's little things in my head. Like, if I do a comic book, that means I made it. And I wrote the most scathing, homophobic, racist.

Like, just, I was mad. I thought it was funny. I was 23 at the time. And it was, like, 10 pages long. But I didn't know the editor of Marvel. It's probably not even him. It was just. and I didn't know how to get it to him

so I just went to Marvel's website and I just sent it to every single person that works at Marvel like copy, paste and the next day it was my first experience in the year you know, Y2K in 1999, 2000 of going viral they're like every artist I look up to every writer I look up to in comics

was like we don't know who the fuck this kid is but he just committed career suicide and then once again shame and so like if I go back to all my shame stories i go what's what's the through line and we should have made the secret word shame but um oh i'm a shame chaser like i get high off shame like what's my drug oh workaholics it's like my drug that i've chased my whole life is shame and anger like fucking powerful drug you know and so

i i couldn't believe it i was like i'm never going to get to draw the hulk spider-man wolverine and i have and i have at this point and i went through the back door which i always do it's true, true vandal, but I just remember going, holy fuck, this is the worst day of my life. Like, people that I look up to, they're like, there was like a whole thing of like, I don't know who this Dave Cho, I've never heard of him, but he's a horrible human being. Listen, you know, and I was like, but there was context. Like, you should have heard how I saw it in my head. Like I was, you know, and they're like, oh, it looks different.

And I was like, holy fuck. And that was my first experience of like, of just feeling. Like me following a pattern of trying to replicate hatred towards me. Like if it's, but not knowing it, I'm just like, oh, I don't know what the fuck I'm doing. And like some ignorance, some playing dumb, some like repeating patterns like a monkey without knowing. And so I had a friend in comics at the time because I was just like, I don't, I was just making art. I was going out doing graffiti every fucking night just doing that OCD playing music in my head and just. tagging up everything, like the kind of graffiti you're not supposed to do,

people's cars, houses. Like, I wanted someone to kill me. Like, I didn't care. Like, I wanted someone to be like, dude, I worked hard for that car, and you just ruined it. And in my head, I'm like, but I'm a famous artist, which I wasn't. I'm 23. And they were like, I just made your car more value. That's how I'm thinking.

But I was out of my mind. You probably did make their car more valuable in retrospect. Can I ask you a question about the shame? Absolutely. Absolutely. I have a friend. He's an addiction trauma counselor guy, amazing guy. He's been on this podcast named Ryan Suave. He has a gift for helping people understand trauma and addiction and this kind of thing. We haven't talked a lot about addiction yet today, but you said you got addicted to the shame. And do you think, I mean, who knows? Here I'm using my intellectual brain, but do you think that these oscillations, of like your mindset, like, I'm a great artist, I'm the greatest artist, sets it up so the shame is that much deeper, like it's like loading a spring, because he told me once, Ryan once told me, he's worked with heroin addicts, drug addicts of all kinds, sex addiction, everything,

and he just said, you know, he goes, gambling addiction is the worst because the next time really could change it all. And he said, but there's something really interesting and that happens to gambling addicts. He goes, eventually they get tired of winning and they get addicted to losing. Happens really quick. So I have my own feelings about this subject. I'm a severe gambling addict.

Like, I told you I'm going to time jump, so I'm at that point, but I'll jump to the current, which is a very shameful thing for me to admit or talk about but you know I'm here so I'll just go there um shame is is so powerful because at this point I've been to all the 12-step meetings I've been to debtors anonymous business owner Dennis debtors anonymous overeaters anonymous workaholics and you know sex and love addicts sex addicts uh gambling like all every single and so what's the through line

Every single one is gambling. Every single addiction is gambling addiction. If you drink and drive, you're gambling. Your life could be over and you're, you know, if you overeat and you're diabetic, it's just every fucking addiction is, so addiction is one of those things you can't apply logic to. And your scientist's friend nailed it. It's, as I explore my feelings, you know, because the people, what are you running from, Dave? I'm like, well, I'm fucking running from myself, dude.

I don't want to look in the mirror. I don't want to see myself. I hate myself. So I'm just running. So as long as I'm like doing graffiti, running from the police, you know, just just hopping on a train, like, like literal running. Like literally running to make sure I'm never sit still for one second. Like, what are you doing, Dave? I'm playing drums in a band.

I'm fucking, you know, at a casino. I'm traveling doing the news for vice. I'm painting at this. like i i can't i can't sit still because that means i have to sit with myself and i i can't do that i can't do that i couldn't do that i couldn't do that i can now so you know what feels good winning a lot of money not working for it and sitting down at a casino and them knowing who you are and upping the limits and you literally making enough money off baccarat or blackjack

what people don't make in a lifetime that's a fucking that's an insane feeling how many shits do you think i took today before i came here rob how many two two one big one and one little one like scientists don't know what causes ibs I do. It's stress. When I was gambling, when I was at the height of any of my addictions, seven shits a day, at least.

Just like, okay, like just, like, and you would never see it on my face, or maybe you would, but I felt like I could gamble with a fortune in front of me and lose it and win it and, like, nothing. Nothing. Like, I was, you know, disassociated, dead inside, whatever you want to say. I didn't feel anymore, right?

Like, the highs were so high. I had already been chased by the cops. I'd already been beating the shit out of. I've already been molested before. I already, whatever you could do to me, you've already done to me, and I'm still here. What can you do to me that I, like, I'm my worst enemy? Like, I beat myself up, right? When the gambling stopped, when I got into recovery, when I, like, I take one,

shit a day now when this fucking asshole asked me to do the podcast i start stressing i've taken what was that like a few weeks ago it's it oh shit dude i just took three shit it started again because i don't have stress in my life anymore or like i have whatever normal family stress but i don't have oh you're gonna say something on some guys show and then your life's going to be ruined again you know like that's i've done that so many times it's like so i'm like fuck i just woke up. I just already took a shit. Why did I take another one? I'm like, oh, the IBS is coming back because there's a part of me that's like, I hope I say something horrible today, because then I could feel that again. And so what people, when they're listening to this, and I don't know if I'm

making, when I talk, sometimes I make sense to myself and sometimes I don't. But if you're an addict, it will make sense to you. If you're, like everyone listening to this is either an addict or someone in their life is, like their family member or their friend. But at this point, with social media and their phones, everyone's an addict, right? You can't, you can't stop. It's just impossible. You will never, you will never find anything more addictive than a phone, right? So in the time that, like, I haven't been in an actual casino in 10 years.

I've banned from all these casinos. The whole world became a casino. You can't go anywhere without gambling. A fucking lottery. You can go on your phone. You could bet on, you know, anything, right? So, at first in every, every addiction you want to win oh fuck that you know i i can't i can relate to drugs and alcohol even

though i don't do that but like that must feel good to like get a little drunk and then be the funniest guy at the party or so eating the most delicious foods that i ever ate that i never thought i would eat in my life and then okay that's good your body feels good why do you need to eat until you're puking and you become like binging and purging like what because what you don't understand because you're applying logic to it is I want to fucking hurt. I want the like winning a million dollars feels fucking great. Losing 10 million dollars feels even better. Well, that doesn't make any sense. Like getting married feels awesome. I mean, I'm just making shit up, but like put greatest day of my life, right? Like greatest day of my life. And I could get dark. I'll try not to

use dark examples but when when something awesome marriage having a child winning a lot of money doing drugs and having one of the best days of your like just when it's on the good side it feels that's why you do it heroin fucking feels good i've never done it but i the description of it's like that sounds awesome why would you not do it again but then when you're fucking scratching your skin and sucking dick for fucking crack like that's another high where you're at the bottom and that's a repetition of the pattern of whatever your childhood was and so i don't fucking know andrew besides his online persona right like where this this is our first time meeting in person's like i this is not me being a no no at all like

humans are not that difficult to understand we're very simple like i i called him immature a little bit before not to be insulting. It's just like, part of me is like, this is me being a hater. Like, I love everybody, but I'm just like, what fucking adult gets tattoos? Like, what kind of fucking adult gets? And I know you got fucking tattoos. I'm like, who fucking just, like, throws their shit away to become a skater? And then, like, are you okay with me asking you question? Like, were you sexually abused? Were you? No. No, I was, I mean, I knew, I had friends that where I looked out. I had one guy come at me that I worked at a skateboard shop in Palo.

Maybe you saw Palo Toyin Sport. It was like down on Waverly Street. Guy that worked there, did that. I responded differently. I flipped the desk over on them. I made them apologize to me in front of everybody. And my biggest fear at that point was my mom, even though we had our attention. My mom's from New Jersey.

She's old school. She knew something happened. And my fear was that if I told her that she would actually kill. kill him. Oh. Like, actually kill him. Like, and, you know, because despite, you know, whatever challenges she and I have had over the year. Yeah. She, like, that maternal aggression, that protectiveness. Yeah. She would have killed them. So I remember being, like, not worried about me, worried that she was going to kill him. You know, and then, but no, I lucked out there. I perceive you as a brilliant man. And this is, this is me.

gathering data and facts in my life not I don't know what the the but you know you know very smart I know geniuses you know geniuses the smarter the person the more intellectual they are the more on the spectrum they are the greater the trauma they experience because whether that was always in them and the trauma unlocked it or you learn that as mental jujitsu to like these people I know in my life that are just brilliant like they're just they can comprehend things that most people can they could create their childhood was so fucking unsafe abandonment you know and usually that's why I ask you about it's usually sexual trauma because that's that has carries the most shame that they're like oh it was small I can defend myself that unless I become

like like a jiu jitsu master or fighter how can I protect myself and it's with this so then something gets unlocked here and they become the smartest person in the room and they can just destroy you verbally they can destroy you in a courtroom they can just they can just and and and and so yeah to answer the you become a shame chaser you get high off shame and it's like a that's even shameful to admit out loud and so like I could sit here and like if I'm being present with current with up-to-date like I have a great life like I'm telling you a lot of stories from the past feelings that I felt in the past and I I have you know I I tell on myself all the time.

When old patterns come up, I have a therapist. I got a men's group. I got friends who love me. I raise my hand. I go, I need help, which I never did before. I grew up with shut the fuck up and figure it out. My whole childhood was a question mark. Where are we going?

What are we doing? Nothing was explained to me. And so there was a lot of violent, a lot of abandonment. It's just like, and so I just, everything, and that's probably why I'm really curious and ask a lot of questions because I didn't know what was happening and my parents were just like working all the time to like, I don't know, stay at this house or this

and I was just like, who are these people? Like, what's happening? What's, why is this guy baptizing me for the 10th? You know, like, why am I getting on a plane? It was like, it was just like, just shut up. Just go along to get along. And so part of, part of my story is if I'm a nice boy, if I'm a nice Asian boy and I do,

then the world shits on me, then everything horrible. The second I fucking speak up, scream, get the fuck off. Like, just do graffiti, break the law. Then I get to do the Lincoln Park album cover. Then I get Sean Parker. It's like, and you know, I talk to all the jackass guys about this. It's like you're rewarded for bad behavior.

You get to be the president. You get to, you know, like the more act. And it's so in one way, okay, that's for career, right? But like, what about it just runs hell on your? personal life. And that's why when I'm in my addiction and I'm chasing shame, I drag everyone who loves me down with them. So I go, I need to, and I don't need my wife or anyone to be my mom. I'm like, I'll handle it. That's how I grow myself up. And it doesn't need to be like, like I said, brilliance is found in Milpitas and Palo Alto and Gilroy. Brilliance is

found in the mundane sitting in the waiting room. Brilliance is found in these like quiet moments. like I don't need to go to rehab and have like this fucking movie role kind of it's just like it's a phone call it's like let me do this and so um the feelings the chemistry that it's like when when you lose all the money you've ever made in your life in a coin flip and you're just sitting there like no worries um hopefully i didn't get any on the microphone What's that line from that 80s movie? It's not a party till something's broken. I always like that line because it excuses it immediately.

Some breaks, folks. You just say, it's not a party till something's broke. In this case, it was my soul, you know. So I was very reckless with my heart. I treated myself very poorly. I didn't care for, I didn't care what happened to me. And so as I jumped from addiction to addiction, like, well, which is the one I can hide in plain sight?

The one that you're in right now. Workaholism. As long as you work all the time, as long as you're providing people, like, as long as you're helping people and being of service, then that's good, right? But what is being neglected in that? This, like, I mean, I don't tell this to everyone, but like someone in your situation that, you know, you have life changes coming up. And I already know your answer, but I would ask, why not take one year off?

like why and it's like well i got my this and i'm an important stanford guy and i got yeah but that will like like you only got one life and you know there's something about it that feels like when i'm in my workaholism like that's the one where i get in this society a pat on the back good good job dave and um you know the the sean parker's story with the with the brothers that was a win i was like fuck you know um but it was it was so much can i tell my pee hermit story there's some shame in that i'll i'll bring it around i'm i just don't i'm you know part of my character defects is entitlement and impatience like i just once i accepted what my mom is saying true i am the greatest artist in the world according

to Jane Cho, and now I'm going to start, you know, not at first, but like I'll start to believe that too. Because you got to, it's so scary doing graffiti, you know, not in a crew, not in a gang, to just go out. And it's like, it's something so comforting to draw in a tiny sketchbook and no one's going to see it. Right? You fuck up, whatever. But to draw something big on a wall and everyone going down the 101 freeways, like thousands of people will see it before 8 o'clock. Like, that sucks. That guy has no can control. You're just like, you're naked. You're like, this is what's inside me. And I did it 40 feet long. And here it is. And they're like, it sucks. Shame. I'm chasing shame. Like, it's like, what would it feel like if everyone's like,

dude, that's the fucking masterpiece? Not as cool. Not as cool. So I, I'm just, I'm doing the thing. I'm sending my art out. And La Brea used to have a lot of galleries. And in my head, I thought my art was better than every artist that was in those. I would be like, and I'd go down the street, and I'm like, oh, they show that. I would keep a record of what kind of art they show that I'd skate back to my house and paint like that style, but better, in my mind, better. And then I'd make a new portfolio, and I'd go down, like, and they're like, who the fuck?

Like, it's like a, like, you have to be shown for. before they'll even take and I go but you know so it's just anger more frustration coming out sideways coming out doing more graffiti shoplifting food to like you know so then I finally get to La Brea and Melrose where there was a ice cream shop called Double Rainbow and there's this wonderful lady named Candace there and I was saying how I'm talking now for us like out loud and my art is just right here and she's like let me see and I show it to her and she's like this is amazing I go, I fucking know, dude, I'm the best. And she's like, all right, shut the fuck out, all right?

She's like, put it up on the wall. And then my ego goes, in a fucking ice cream shop. And I go, well, I guess no one else is offering that. Okay. So it was like, not this. It wasn't like minimalist. It was floor to ceiling, hundreds of paintings, some that I spent months on. Like, this is singular.

Just, I'm the best and I need to show you. It wasn't, like, tasteful. Like, here's one painting. and let that breathe. And it was just like, here's, ah, you know. And people are coming in there buying, like, mint chocolate chip going, oh, that's pretty cool, you know. And so every day I would get a call.

Love your art. Want to buy it. I'm like, fuck, yeah, here we go. Like, $2. I'm like, you know how long I spend on that art? And, you know, and I just was like, 50 bucks? You know, I'm 23. This is like early 2000s.

I'm like, that's, that's less than the art supplies. That I stole, to be fair. But still, I'm like, can you cover the cost of materials? And they're like, yeah, that's good. But, you know, can you just like haggling, like five, ten? I'm like, that's what a fucking print or sticker cost. Like, this is an original painting, you know. And I remember I got a call one day.

And it's these things that I keep, the stories that I keep, editing in my mind to make me the hero, you know? And the guy's like, I'll trade you a car for like that giant painting, the one that I spent months on. And of course, it's like 1972 Plymouth Fury, no brakes, like cracked wind, you know, just the complete fucking beater, like piece of shit. But then the story in my head that I go around telling, you know, part of my PR marketing is like, I traded my art for a car, for an, you know, oh yeah?

And I'm like, you don't need to know the details of the car, you know. And the guy in the, you know, recycler was trying to sell it for like two, three hundred dollars, you know? He's like, just get this shit off my lawn, you know? And I remember, this is how I drove it. I would drive it and there was no bricks. So I had to, there was like fuel and I had to pump it like a block before. And then I would always hit the car like, ding.

Like that's what? And the guy would say, hey, what the fuck? And I'd be like, sorry. And I had no money to fix it. But I was just in my head. I did it. I fucking, I did it, you know, like small victories, little victories. And then my friends like, like, I knew all like the indie zine, like make your own fucking punk rock.

Like, and I would just get rejection letter after. Just the continuation of you're not enough. Your art's not that good. You suck. Just, and maybe they wouldn't say that, but that's how I took every, you know. Not at this time. Not for us. rejection letter from Playboy from Rolling Stone

and I just remember one of my friends he just always had like nice sketchbooks and I go what are you getting that money like you do you're a full-time artist and he was like a dirty punk rock guy and he's like you know the skin rags pay just as much it's like they have none of the prestige and like you know I went to the tower records warehouse once

where they distributed a calendar I made and it's like here's like this whole table is the warehouse house this is like you know sports illustrated rolling stone this and all of this is porn right so you know you don't want to brag about that but that's just they're like they pay literally the same amount as rolling stone but it's not rolling stone so I go okay I guess I'm doing that so then I go to the part of the magazine stand where you know there's a curtain and I go back and I start you know butthole fever just start writing down the art director's name And that was the thing is like, I cared.

I cared so much about it was important to me. It saved me. Art saved me. So it didn't matter if I was doing a logo for Nike or Toyota. Like, you know, I just was like, this is, you're still looking at me. Even though if I'm doing a corporate job, like, I'm, I'm in there and I need you to see me. And I am, even though if I hate the job and you're not even paying me, I'm still going to do my best. No matter what, like it's, I have pride in my work, you know, and I, and I get that from my parents also.

And I, and I love that. I'll go to restaurants where I don't even like the food because I know the waiter is, like, running to bring me water. And he cares. Like, anytime, that's the secret ingredient to anything. Anytime I feel like the person cares, it just, it's such a warm feeling, you know. And I cared. I care. And I still do. I care a lot.

Like, I sit here and go, I don't give a fuck. I do. I care maybe too much. So I write the number for, you know, I try the legit ones for his penthouse and Playboy and they're like, nope, nope. I'm like, I guess I go to a hustler and Buttman and, you know, Asian fever and I get a call from Butman, you know, they're like, these buthole paintings you did, they're just, they're so good. And I'm like, I worked really hard on it. You know, it's not like what I want to be doing, but. and they're like can you can you come in and it's just true to their title it's all it is it's just all anal there's no stories about anal page there's page after page and they go can you do like

this but like every week I'm like what do you need they're like you know Superman fucking lois lane anal spider man fucking you know midgets like whatever like just all anal and I go I can do that. I would love to do that. And like, we pay, you know, a couple hundred bucks. I was like, and I took it serious. I wasn't like a, it was like, this is my. And a lot of actually famous artists would do that, but under fake names and they didn't want to be associated their real art with that. I was like, and I, and I, so I did, I did all this art for a butt man. Once again, if you want to cut out any names, I remember everyone's name. It was, uh, art director was Heidi. She was so sweet. She's like, it's just like, like, I was only used to my mom saying she likes my art. So anytime someone not in my family said they liked it, it was, oh, it's not just my mom. Like other people like it, you know. But also this massive narcissist, like, I'm the best. And I'm like, no, I'm not that good, you know.

But, like, it's like both, you know. And I don't know why this always kept happening. But all these places I always worked at, they would always go, you got such funny story. Like, do you got any? you know and I was like I think I'd been with one girl they're like you have any like butthole stories and and I and I had been trained by you know black belt and lying my mom you know she's like yeah of course like I don't even it was so easy for me they're like oh because these these depictions of anal sex are so they're so graphic and fantastic and

every time you come in you have some weird story like do you know any women in your life that have experiences like this? And I go, oh, yeah, like super racist against Asians. I go, oh, yeah, like, Susie Suzuki, like, just making up fake names. And they're like, you know someone named Susie Suzuki? I go, oh, yeah, yeah. She goes, do you think she would write about her experiences? And I'm like, how dumb is this lady?

Like, I don't fucking know anyone named Suu. Like, what do the fuck? And she goes, it's 40 bucks a story. And I'm like, cool, like, they're paying me 150, 200 bucks for this. So I'd go home and I would just. write the most ridiculous hi i don't speak english you know this is the voice i hear in my head i come to america need a job and just writing like every like ridiculous male fantasy like and then he put in the wrong hole and pornography i became a pornographer like i'm not it's not like the proudest

moment of my life but i'm like oh god you know if god's looking down on me probably you know but once again, shame. I'm cool with it. I've made myself at home, like most people, they changed their name, but I was like, this is what I do. I'm a fucking, you know, so here we go again, my fucking poor parents, you know, so I'm living at home, right? So I can't hide, I could have done a better job hiding the graffiti. I didn't. They see the spray paint. They see the fucking paint on all my clothes. Was it good? Were you happy with the graffiti? No, I hated it. Okay. I just, I have so much respect for that. Like, it's everything.

It's physicality. You're climbing. You're, you're a ninja. It's like fucking Navy SEAL. Like, it's crazy. Like, you need to do a detail of a nose while you're balancing on barbed wire. I mean, it's... Yeah, those kids are crazy.

It's insane. I'm like, fuck, dude. These people, if they had a little bit of guidance, they could have been, like, Navy SEALs, green berets, whatever. So my dad, of course. course find, you know, my parents, once again, like, and then I sit here now as I tell the story and it's coming, why didn't I hide it better? Oh, like, maybe I wanted to get caught, you know, my dad fucking throws, he's like, sexa, sex, you know, just like, once again, it's like, this, like, think about my dad. It's like, his friends are like, when, you know, his friends,

kids are like getting the highest SAT scores. They're getting accepted into Stanford and, and they're Like, my son has hair covering his eyes. You know, and I think I was starting to get into, like, shitty 80s, like, Warrant and Winger and Cherry Pot, you know, like, that kind of, like, I listen to everything. And just shame. Like, literally, like, not feeling, but, like, having another human, your father tell you, I'm so embarrassed of my son. I'm so embarrassed, like, like, anger tears, like, just. breaking like why why why did i come to this country why did it you know just like and i i like i just like now i could feel more when i told but like before i just like i just like i just

pretended like it was happening to someone else you know i just disassociated i'm like whatever bro like but it wasn't whatever it was like my dad disappointed at me my mom disappointed in me and i'm like fuck man it's not really working out for me like just rejection after rejection and I just I remember the shipping like it was in the Larry Flint building Wilshire in Las Enaga

and I was like fuck I live like a like I could skate there like I'd rather and I was scared to like send oh so this is what happened so I got busted the lady I don't know if she was a lesbian or something she's like I need to meet Susie Suzuki it wasn't Suzuki it was a name like that

it was like Trisha Toyota or something and I go Heidi, are you serious right now? It's like, like, there's, that's, I wrote that story. That story's ridiculous. Like, in my head, I'm like, it's so obvious a guy wrote that, you know? And she's like, hey, we might be Butman magazine, but we print the truth. And I was like, what the fuck?

You're telling me the penthouse letters are, like, shut the fuck up. And she's like, she's like, took all my art through it at me. It's like, you will never be published in Butman anymore. Like, she just, you're done here. And I was like, I spent a long time on those paintings. Like I, all the folds of the butthole. And like, I really tried hard. Like, you know, it's like, rejection, reject.

Like, I had gotten so used to my parents being disappointed in me. Gallery, art, like, it was just, it was like, cool. I don't, all right. Didn't feel. I mean, I'm sure it didn't feel good, but I had figured out a way to internalize it and just, all right. and then and then do my mom's delusional thing but but i'm still the best even though the world's telling me like you're you're a loser and i go okay who's the art director at hustler w t nelson okay i'm gonna so i call them i go hey i live you know i can skate there you know take me like an hour to

get there but i have these paintings and i don't want to send them in the mail i never sent paintings in the mail before and i'd rather save on the shipping and he's like like, I don't know you, dude, and I don't really, but I had already sent the color copies and the pages that they had printed in Buttman, and he's like, but, all right, I guess you could come. And I'm like, yes, I'm going to go to the Larry Flit building. This is going to be so cool, you know? And I go there, and he's just like, yeah, if you just tweak all these paintings you

already did, we'll use those in Asian fever. We'll use these in, you know, like different, you know, there was Hustler, had like, 20 different other magazines and he's like yeah like that story is awesome we'll print that story and i was like okay cool so i'm like am i am i a writer you know part of me was like i'm a writer i'm a published writer technically you're a professional writer at this point and at the time i was also writing for vice i was writing for jan robot also not getting paid like this was the first time i got paid so it felt like oh did butman pay you no they didn't because they we had that fight and they never sent the you know apparently they quote only print the truth but they also

don't pay their bills so yeah the truth only goes so far for them so i it was me it was like i i can see a lot of my mom in that now of how the reality is i'm not successful i'm a pornographer, but in my head, I'm like, I'm published. I'm a real artist. Like, and I'm a writer. I'm a scholar. You know, like, I, and then he, I remember W.T. Nelson paid me and then it wasn't that much money. And like, and now it's just like that awkward. Like, yeah, we usually don't have the artists come to the, it's all like through mail. And I don't know, you, you want some porn? This was before Facebook. Yes. Yes. Okay. Because the reason I ask is, uh, And I don't want to take you off track because I was wondering when Facebook eventually paid out, when the equity popped, basically.

I'll get to all of it and I'm going to time jump, but like it's just, I want to stay in the feeling. Please. I'm trying to, because these are all stories I've told before, but like I've never told them from like an emotional perspective. It's always just been like almost bragging. Like, no, nah, nah, I go, like, I'm trying to, for the first time, like, sit in it. And because I want to focus a little bit on the shame part, you know, and, and part of, you know, part of being an artist is just constant rejection. It's like asking a girl out, like over and over again, it's like, you're fat, you're ugly, no thanks. You're not, you know, it's like, and for art, it's art is different, you know, like what you think is cool.

I might think it's cheesy. And it's like, now I can see that, but before, I was like, you're in the presence of greatness. And you're saying no to me. Like, I'm like, okay, okay, all right. I guess it's not good, you know, so it's what I present and what I feel inside. I'm excited to share that Matina, the Yerba Mata drink I helped create, is now available at Whole Food Stores Nationwide. Long-time listeners of this podcast know that Yerba Mote is my preferred caffeine source.

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expensive. Now these spoiled kids today, it's, you know, you could see anything, right? It's just free internet. But back in the day, if you wanted to buy a video cassette or a DVD or or a magazine, those things were like $20. Like it was expensive. And now I'm getting these care packages is from hustler just shit that I'm not even into like bodybuilder chicks with you know like just just a lot of shit and I'm like it looked crazy at my at my apartment like it was just I'd finally moved out of the house I was dating this girl this crazy actress and I just it was florida like every room in the house had some kind of it was like kind of my identity they're like Dave the you know and she was starting to get disgusted.

She's like, who am I dating, you know? And I've always, like at the core of all my addictions is codependence. It's, I don't know what's happening. The world is scary. I don't feel safe. And I need to go along to get along. And I need to do, I need to make myself small so that everyone around me feels okay. And at the cost of me.

That's what I need. And so, oh, you like that kind of art? Then I'll, I'm a chameleon. I'll switch to that. Oh, you like, oh, you like, uh, food. Fugazi, okay, I'll listen to Fugas, you know. And there's like, it's not black and white. Some of it's true and some of it's like a mask. And I'm sitting there just, just really struggling, like stealing fish down my pants so I could eat dinner. Like, I'm not getting paid. Like, there's no money coming in. It's, like, graffiti doesn't pay. Like, the pornography, like, getting paid in porn is cool, but it's not money, you know. They're like, hey, you want, and I have a, you know, I have a sickness. I have a, I have a second. addiction so it's like hey do you want 200 bucks or do you want one thousand dollars in porn which is nothing to them it's just you know so i'm having a i'm just having a hard time and i get to my

72 plymouth fury who like every time i get and i could kill myself or something you know and there's a note on the door and it says uh doing a period peace movie in los angeles your car 1970 fits the time can we dress it up to make it look like an undercover you know pays something ridiculous like a thousand bucks a day or something

I'm like fuck like these small victories you know oh fuck yeah I show up the next day it's on the street everything in the street they made it look like 1970s there's all these other 1972 and they made it they put the sirens on the top

they took the license plate off and the guy that's like dressing my car one of the you know the union guys looks in the back and he's like yo this guy has so much porn in the back of his car and I was like yes you know like

and I go what's this movie and I see Johnny Depp come out of the house and he's got a blonde hair in a ponytail and it's blow that movie Blow with Peewey Herman right but he wasn't in that scene and I'm like holy fuck I love Johnny Depp

I'm like, oh, fuck, that's Johnny Depp. And this guy's being really loud. He's like, this guy has a lot of porn, not just like, and I'm like, oh, yeah, I worked for a hustler. You work for a hustler. So I remember just that was the first time I saw like a celebrity on that level in real life. And I'm like, oh, he's kind of short.

But like, he was like signing autographs and talking to everyone. I'm like, this guy looks, he seems very friendly, you know, like he had that whatever, charisma, Riz, the kids say. star quality so then it's uh you know craft service lunch you know i'm i'm i've never been on a movie set before and i'm just like i'm getting paid to do nothing and just and i was like between all the the background guys i was the the man because i had so much porn you know so i just had i grabbed the sampling of it i had some of the some of the ones that i had drawings in and i put some like book my like i you know i don't know it's like maybe johnny devs going to

see my butthole paintings and be like, hey, paint me, you know, like, I don't know. That's my delusion, right? So I'm like, is he going to eat in his own trailer or is he going to be down with the crew? And he was down with the crew. So it's like lunch. And it was just a scene like with, I think Ray Leota and like all this. And I'm just sitting there. And I'm like, I want Johnny Depp to see. Like, I want to, like, I don't know. And I'm like, who the fuck I have? I'm like, 23. I've, you know, I'm like, I do graffiti. Like, I got a car that doesn't work for, you know, it's like, but I was like, oh, it's, it's, it's going to happen. So he's sitting down with the crew. He's like telling stories. And I didn't have to do it. Another guy was like, hey, Johnny, this guy has

all this porn in this guy. He's like, oh, really? You know, like, I can't do a Johnny Dev impression. And I go, and I was like, my cue. I was like, hey, Johnny, like, see, this is, this is my art. And, you know, I had some butt man in there. I had hust. I, I, I grabbed the same. I, sampling of my, you know, maybe I had some color copies of my art and, and he flips through it. He's in his wig and he's like, it's a lot of butts, you know, it's like a pretty singular vision. I go, yeah, I could do other stuff. And, you know, he just hands it back to me. I'm like, oh, fuck.

I was like, oh, thanks, Johnny, you know. And I was like, oh, that was cool. And then I'm not trying to spin that in my head of like, immediately goes to he fucking hates you. What, like, stupid, like, why did you, you know, like, why did you do that? And then, yeah, I don't know the movie. Like, you know, when they do a Hollywood movie, they changed the name. I didn't know it was going to be blow. Like, that movie's awesome.

And I feel, like, defeated. And they're like, hey, you know, we were going to pay you for two days, but we finished the scene. So you're only going to get paid for one day. And I'm like, I'm going to get as much chicken as possible. So I start getting the Tupperware. And, you know, I'm going to eat for like a week off this craft service food. And I'm walking out. And I see all the star wagons.

and I see on a door, Paul Rubens. Malekalekahai, meca hi, meca hi, niho. I'm like, here we go. Like, fucking my childhood. I'm like, and he had gotten caught and jerking off in a movie theater or something. I didn't give it. Like, I always, maybe I can verbalize it better with a shame,

but like when Winona Ryder got caught shoplifting or, like, all of that always made sense to me, and it endeared me to, it made them look human. Like, I was like, that's weird, my hero, my childhood hero that did Peewee's big adventure, Peevee's Playhouse, getting caught, jerking off. And why did he do that? Why didn't he do it at home? But I, even those things I didn't understand.

I was, like, now I'm like, I love that guy. Like, I have nothing but compassion for, like, and that's, like, a lot of stuff that I had to work out with myself because a lot of things I do now is I work with, you know, murderers and at-risk youth and show, like, I'll work with anybody because my old self is like, fuck this dude, fuck this person, fuck you, you hurt me, revenge, revenge, very Korean, you know. And now I go, if, you know, and I work with people in prisons, I go, if you're willing to be a better version of yourself, I can, I'm not a scientist, I don't, but I can use art and creativity to work with you. to be a better person or try at least if you're willing only if you're willing if you're not willing then i don't want to waste my time and you know you know great so you know fuck it i'm gonna do it so johnny didn't want the porn here i'm right a little i don't remember exactly what i wrote and i was like biggest fan love you i think i wrote like i don't care what they say about you like

i'm still love you and i can draw other stuff but here's stuff i've done for and i left it on his thing I knocked and I was too embarrassed to like and I ran away and I mean it just there was so many there was so many moments I remember you know and then so like it's it's gradual right like it's like okay and then this little thing happens in this but and uh you know it was like I don't know a decade before the Facebook and also I don't pay attention to that stuff so as the Facebook stuff was rising, Sean would text me. He's like, hey, you know those shares are worth a quarter million now or, but then at the time I was gambling and I was making that much gambling. So I was like, oh, whatever. I don't care. He's like, oh, you know, they're worth a million

now. And I had quietly become a millionaire by the time I was 30. I had a huge art show with Steve Lazaridis, who's Banksy's art guy. And I was like, I hit at the right time that shit, you know, like, oh, fuck you, dad. Look. I fucking made. you know like the art that he hated me for i was like look there it is you know um and there was always a lot of anger at that's like you fucking live in a house that was paid for by like spray painted dicks motherfucker fuck you who you know like you know and it's like i love my parents it's a love hate relationship it's complicated or maybe it's not that complicated but it's like um you know hearing i know how proud of even though it's not very asian

for a parent from another country to say, I'm proud of you, like, he, he's like, we like kiss on the lips. He's like, and he rubs my face. Like, I fucking love you, dude. He doesn't cuss, but he's like, I love you. I'm proud of you. And it's like, all that shit, I just said, it's like, you know. So I have a lot of compassion for my family.

So, like, I remember. and then things like I started working for vice you know I had this relationship with Gavin McKinnis and Shane Smith and they just they're like hey you're you went to Africa to look for a dinosaur you hitchhike like and this was as print is dying and things are

they were the first early adopters of tech and you know they're like we're vice is going to move to online I'm like who I'm always the guy that's like who the fuck you know it's like I'm like Korean force gum I'm, like, just in the room with, like, the most important things in life happening. And I go, all right, cool. And they're like, what can you film for nothing?

You know, because it was, like, Spike Jones was there in the beginning. Johnny Knoxville, like, you know, it was like the beginning of that, of vice, you know, and it all fucked up because of greed and all that shit. But I was like, every time I hitchhike something crazy happens, they're like, okay, cool, film that. So then I start filming thumbs up. I think the first I was what I was saying with time I think it was 20 years ago and I do all that shit and then it's like all the things like I was saying that I was arrested for I got shamed for embarrassed for now people are giving me money and jobs and they're like yeah all that fucked up shit can do it on camera can you you know and I was like oh they like me my mother was right you know and so one day um uh uh uh uh uh uh uh my friend Dave Chang, who also has severe gambling issues, you know, I didn't want to meet that

guy because I was like looking in a mirror. He was like, everyone's like, he's you, but of cooking. And I was like, I don't need to meet. Like, I need to meet with people that lift me out of my shit, not. That's why I hate meeting other addicts because then it's like, you know, like, you never know how it, like right now I'm sitting here telling, if I'm getting, if I'm being, if I started this show telling you what I least want to share. It's like, now I'm addicted to Pokemon, right? Like, you go, oh, you haven't gambled in a casino in 10 years. You haven't, you know, and you pat yourself on the back. And then the worst thing happens. My kid gets into Pokemon. I go into a shop. I had no idea that packs cost $20. I open a pack and the worst possible thing could happen. I get the hit card.

It's like, you got the sunbri-on, the $1,000. And I'm like, wait, wait, wait, hold on. Wait, what? And I go, oh, this is gambling. And in six months, I've gone from like, maybe I'll spend 100 bucks, which at the time, I was like for fucking cards. And now I spend thousands of dollars a day on it. And I always turn my addictions, which I'm always open about into my job. But it's for work. The buttholes. That was for work.

You know, everything's for work. It's like, oh, now I'm drawing on the, I got one for you. I'll give it to you later. I drew on Mike Tyson for you because I know you like Michael John. I should get in context. Dave sent me a text yesterday. He said, oh, what's your favorite Pokemon? And I don't know because I don't fall of Pokemon.

And he goes, what's your favorite athlete? And I said, Mike Tyson. That's a Pikachu painted on top of Mike Tyson for you. Oh, this is so dope. So, I mean, it's like, you're welcome. You know the addictions, the things they say about addiction is it's baffling, cunning, seductive. And so I'm like, oh, I'm not, the gambling comes up in other ways. You know, it's like trading cards, you know, like little things.

And it's like, I don't, I'm not, as a middle-aged man, and I'm shaming myself, it doesn't feel good to be, you know, like, I'm friends with guys that are like, like Money Mark, who's in the Beastie Boys. Like, he's 65. And my friend Bill Poon, who I used to do a podcast, he's 62. Like, I'm a middle-aged man hanging out with other middle-aged men in the middle of night talking about predator badlands, talking about, like, childish, arrested development type of shit. I go, and the thing is, like, I've been to countries and cultures where, like, even being a Mormon

and, like, when you turn 18, there is a ritual that happens that says, now you're a man. And we don't have that in our culture. So that's why you have grown men wearing Pokemon t-shirts and talking about fantasy. It's all the same. Fantasy football. It's all fantasy. It's all immature shit. And you just have grown men collecting toys and comic books and talking about cards.

And it's like, okay, if it makes you happy, cool, I guess. But there's always a part of me that's like dissatisfying. Like I do like my daily after me. of like I don't I don't need to do anything today for Andrew to like me like I'm enough like I just I have to sit in that and I'm like no I got it and then I got it from you you know it's like we talked once on the phone before I showed up today and you've sent me a mountain of this year of a matte this delicious matina and I'm like that's I fucking like this is like crack to me now and I'm like oh this guy I don't know is the sending hey can I get some more of that and I told you I was starting to get sick and you're like oh I'm going to send you some pep And I go, what a sweetie and cute and like awesome and very handsome. And like your shirts, the way they fit every time. I'm like, dude, you got some guns and like clothes look good. I'm jealous of your posture.

And I just go, oh, this guy's a caretaker. Like I don't even fucking know the guy. And he's sending me like, I don't know if peptide's a drug, but he's like, I'll help you, Dave. I'll send you these experimental medicines and this. And I go, thank you, but also you don't need to do any of that. Like, I just wanted to meet you. To be clear, I know I don't have to. It's in my nature to want to care for people that I feel loved towards.

I know, but like, we just met. And I'm like, those things take time. And then you're like, no, I got people to do that or whatever. And I go, the cost, I'll speak for myself. The cost of that at some point is you, right? When you spend so much time thinking of others, you know. And so, and it feels like against how I was raised. I go, fuck, this feels selfish for me to, you know, like I never took a, you know,

at the height of my workaholism, I was touring with my band. My podcast was DVDSA was, you know, which I did with Asa, Porn Star and Bobby Lee and Steve Lee. It was becoming like the biggest, you know, it was, there was no one doing podcast back then. It was Joe, Adam Carolla. trying to remember it wasn't that it wasn't what it is now you know and so it was it was insane like because i grew up on howard stern and i'm like just hearing him fight like you couldn't say a certain thing and and then he'd get punished by the FCC and then someone was like hey david you know what a podcast i said sounds weird what's a podcast and they go and talking about terrestrial

radio and the FCC and rules and it was like it's a new canvas it's a I was like, you could, you can say anything. You can fucking say, like, you could fucking cuss and tell, like, the worst story. Like, and I just, I couldn't believe that it existed. I couldn't believe. And so, you know, and I didn't, like, come in with a mission statement. And I know intentions huge, and part of it was I was just running and running. But now in hindsight, I go, what was that?

And I was, oh, shame chasing. I was like, how can I be as, how can I record? the downfall of me like like like how how much can I go over the edge how much can I push up against this boundary and see it because let me see if you care right and first of all I was like no one's listening turns out it was a lot of people listening but I didn't know that at the you know we started I was like let's just let's just go let's record our downfall let's record our bottom like as an addict like being being how like I'm chasing shame like I'm like in a way it's like this like someone who's like a flasher they're like what kind of person gets off on like running down the

street I was like that's what I'm doing I'm trying to I'm not a mentally well person that I'm dealing with demons inside me that I don't know how to articulate so I'm going to workaholism I'm going and I'm trying to find myself and find out what I'm trying like I don't and it's just so painful and I I feel misunderstood and I go let's just fucking say the worst possible things every episode and make fun of it like a joke and just like I mean that once again if I look back and I go what's the worst things that ever happened to me jail like getting canceled multiple times it's like all of it led to the best moments of my life so I don't sit here and judge oh this was good

this was bad because good moments lead to bad it's just life right it's fluid and it's there's a spectrum of good and bad so i remember just there was so many i'm like doing this podcast and in my mind i was like like and like having howard stern write me that going on his show and him telling me afterwards in private dude you're out of control was the greatest compliment you know Howard Stern, the despise, you know, the king of all media telling me, and I asked him on the show if he can adopt me. And I'm like, I'm the prince of all media.

I fucking do comics, and I do fine art. I do graffiti. I can do anything, you know. And to have that validation and, you know, we don't talk regularly, but, you know, I started sending him watercolor stuff. And then he got into water. And he's fucking really good. Like he, like everything, he went into it. And so that was, and then at one point,

I was talking to his producers about being on on uh serious like right after him and i was like there's like jane show was right i am the greatest like i can do anything and then you know people started listening and they're like these people are saying the worst shit ever and i was like i know but i'm just like don't they know i'm a comedian like you never told anyone like and that's not funny but whatever i mean i i shouldn't have said like a lot of the things I said and I never gave I don't like as an artist I don't like like like here's my black penis I painted on the wall like I don't I paint and I do stuff but the mistake that I made was words like in the spectrum of entertainment and art everyone watches

movies and video like that's up here so that has the most eyeballs on it then you go all the way down to at the time podcast art gallery you do whatever you want no one cares and so that's how I was I was approaching it

and people go when you paint the most fucking vile obscene disgusting shit it's still a painting right but when you say stuff

people take it literally like you're coming at a microphone like um like it's an app ah yeah oh shit I scare myself

um I was so good. I love that. Oh, my God. That was felt good. That was a good scream. That was like your punk rock. Someone sampled that turned that into a punk rock song. But I treated it like it was just another, you know, I was, it was Sean Parker. I'm not blaming it. It was these people in my life that I witnessed as successful, they didn't take reality seriously, right? I'm like, I don't care. I'm going to say, I'm going to push it as far as I can because I don't care, because I don't respect reality. I've ever have. Like, oh, you fucking believe in, yes. Yes, I believe. Look into my eyes. I believe in

Santa Claus. 100%. There's no part of me that doubts that. That's who you're talking to. A mentally ill person working on himself, trying to express himself as, you know, like, a perfectly imperfect, unrepeatable miracle of the universe. That's how I, I'm trying my best. That's it. That's it, you know. So I meet David Chang. I become friends with him. He's like, let's go to dinner. I'm going to bring my friend, and his friend happens to be Anthony Bourdain.

Immediately, like, I've met my brother. Like, I mean, he's older than me, but it was just, you know, ex-heroine addict, got through it through workaholism. And I could see that he was tired, you know. And he had a thing that he kept saying, he's like, what's your life? if you just fucking watch TV and watch The Simpsons. And, you know, he had this story.

Like, I have to live an interesting life. And he's like, oh, I'm doing, you know, so I developed a friendship with him because it was just organic. Like, it wasn't like, oh, I want to, he was in a way grooming either Chang or me or Roy Troy. I don't know. He liked Asians, but he was grooming us to take over, basically. And, um, and that, that. that once again fed my ego of like oh he's he can see what my mom he thinks i'm special like the guy that is the most interesting person on the planet wants me to take over like oh my god

this is great you know so he's like my you know it's like you're doing you know his his show changes his no reservations it's it kept changing and so uh you know every time i ate with him it was insane i mean i don't know if you had eating disorders or what but it's anthony Bordane so you go in a restaurant and they bring out every fucking food right like everything and I go I'm watching him takes a sip of water thank you can you wrap this up I'm like you're not gonna eat you know because everywhere he went every chef wanted to and he's like Dave if I ate all this shit like I'd be like 300 pounds you know so I'm like can I can I take it home he's like yeah you could have it and then as I got to know him a little

better every time he came to LA stay at Chateau-Mormant and I'd be like is your life just eating at restaurants and he's like yeah I go hey from now on just come to my house my mom's like I know he's like I would fucking love that you know he closes like so

whenever you come to L.A. he would go to my mom's house my mom would my mom loved him like Tony and my mom were she he I don't know what his relationship with his mom was like but he loved my mom and he'd always he knew culture so he knew culture so He'd always bring the Asian pairs.

You know, he knew, like, oh, I'm going to a Korean's house. And then after a while, like, when I meet people that I love and I respect, I value the friendship. So I don't go. And that doesn't mean I don't value you. I was like, I would love to be friends with you first before doing your podcast. But I was like, fuck it. Like, let's just jump into it. We'll do it in reverse.

Yeah, we'll do it in reverse. And same thing. Like, I never asked to be on a show. I never. But after a while, he just was like, Dave, I'm doing L.A. And I go, but haven't you done L.A.? He goes, yeah, but this is specifically Korea Town. And I go, okay, I mean, I grew up in Korea.

I was born and raised in Korea Town. But so then his producer, his production company, 0.0. I loved it because when I did Thumbs Up, I'm everything. I'm the director. I'm the production. It's just like thumbs up is me, my friend Harry, a camera guy, and like a chase van. That's it. It's four people.

But, you know, I was like, oh, this is like what a real TV show is like. he had guys setting up shots and it was like a lot of people and I go oh fuck this seems cool like you don't have to so he go so his producer calls me and goes okay we're going to set this show up for like two months from now and um it's korea town centric like and I go okay but do you want to do fake like I'm down like what do you guys need like do you like I know every all the restaurants and stuff in Koreatown now, but Koreans don't eat Korean food. Like, from my era, we didn't have any money.

So when we go out, we eat at Sizzler, we eat at Denny's. We don't eat, we get Korean food at home, you know, like. So if he's trying to do an authentic story about where I eat in Korea, it's in Korea town, it's Sizzler. And like every Korean American I know eats at Sizzler. And so she's like, so you're telling me we're going to bring Anthony Bourdain to you know, spend all this money to take him to sit. I go, hey, I just

told you, like, I'll fake it. Like, I'll, I know all the new spots. I know all the chefs. Like, we couldn't. But I didn't eat that shit growing up. He goes, no, Tony loves authenticity. I'm like, we're going to fucking sizzler then. So we do this whole episode. He comes to my warehouse, and he's, I mean, it's like,

I mean, pitfall after pitfall. Like, it's, I remember at the time Channing Tatum came to my, like, he's like, his agent, this guy, Bill, Korean guy, Channing Tatum's agent's Korean, and he calls me and he goes, my client Channing Tatum loves you. And like, it's like after all these things and getting canceled over and over again in comics and whatever field I went in, there was always, you're not supposed to do that. You're not supposed to paint on a Mike Tyson card. You're not supposed to paint over this graffiti. You're not supposed to, there's rules that you're not following. And I'm like, it was this, my whole life.

so I remember Channing Tatum was also attracted to that and he showed up with his agent and he's like he had just done he was a pretty boy he's one of the most handsome guys but he's so talented and I'm like I don't fucking want to meet Channing Tatum I don't care about Channing Tatum and then he came to the warehouse and he's like don't think of me as just like the pretty boy dancing step up from the streets guy like I'm about to do GI Joe but like I'm like and I'd put out zines and like

self-published books and I write the way I talk right now and he'd read that and I was like Channing Tatum read you know he goes you're a great writer and I'm like there it is again I'm like I write porn he's like no no no you have a way of talking and writing that I need to be a part of that like whatever I go but I've never written a script he goes whatever you write I'm going to produce it and I go holy shit dude this is amazing and then like I don't know I'm time jumping but at some at some point, I got a little cocky and he put out 21 Jump Street, which Johnny Depp again, you know, and I said, there's ice cubes talking to Korean Jesus during that movie. Do you guys still have that Korean Jesus?

It's like, oh yeah, we made that for the, I go, if you guys want to work with me, I need that Korean Jesus. So they sent me the Korean Jesus, and I put it in my warehouse, and I prayed to it every night. I prayed to Korean Jesus. And what else? uh because of all the canceling it's like if i get canceled at marvel then dc wants to work with me so it's like once again being rewarded rewarded for the bad behavior so there's this editor at dc comics oh cool i can't draw hulk and wolverine but batman superman and he this guy axel alonzo who worked at uh vertigo which was like the more adult like sandman and stuff like that he contacts me

and he's like i've been reading your fucking fucked up articles and vice he's like you're a writer I go, that's the thing that I have the most respect for is writing. Like, I have a book in me. I've never, I haven't sat down, but it's like, it's in here. I'm too scared to get it out. But he's like, he's like, yeah, your art's okay. I go, okay. And he goes, I want you to write a book about, you know, it was like Koreatown gangsters.

And it was shit that I didn't know about. I was like, fuck it. I'll make it up. And I was like, yeah, I'm going to write it like this. And he's like, no, you're going to write it. And someone else is going to draw it. I was like, oh, okay. But he was like, and then I started writing it, and, and I, I start writing him emails.

Like, it's, it's done. And, you know, email bounced back. He quit and, like, moved to Marvel. And I'm like, oh, oh, fuck, it was almost about to happen again, you know? And then, and then my podcast starts getting bigger and bigger. And I'm, so I'm in my full workaholism. I'm aware that I'm an addict I'm like I'm in my full addiction

I'm gambling with my life and life savings every single day while touring with my band Mangchi doing the news for vice doing art shows like legally around the world and doing illegal like just and people are like are you on Coke I'm like I don't have chemical I don't do I get high off like I and each thing is like I have to do that I I'm not enough

that's what I believe about that's what I did believe about myself and still sometimes it is I was everything the world had shown me is that besides from my mother is that you're not and that was also confusing

because she sent me away and abandoned me so it was like you're telling me I'm the best but then you threw me out like trash so a lot of mixed messages and and the messaging that I heard growing up that I received was you're not enough

your women don't date Asians your art looks like shit it's you're not following the graffiti rules your art's a little too aggressive to be refined for it's just everything is just so everything had to be I need to be it's not it's not like I can kind of be in this field

like I have to have the best podcast and in my mind that was Howard Stern so I was like however extreme he is I have to go like Howard's the ringleader but I need to be the guy that's the, you know, and I don't care what happens to me because I've had third degrees burns all over my foot. Like my brother's read my diary. I've been stabbed in my, like, I don't care what you do to me because it'll never be what I can do to myself. I've hurt myself. So, so then I'm in Russia or the North Pole interviewing. It's my first time doing

the serious news. And I remember at the time Shane and Eddie and everyone had advice. We sat down And they're like, Dave, your podcast is out of control. And they all know me. They're like, you can't say those things. I go, you can't say what the fuck I want. I'm like, this is vice, baby. Like we did. They're like, Dave.

And it was like second season of Vice News on HBO. The first season was Dennis Rodman in North Korea, getting a lot of attention. We start getting Emmy nominations. And the year that we did it, I won the Emmy for the news. I'm like, you know, my ego is like, oh, the first. first time doing the news fucking nailed it and i'm like i'm god dude i can do serious news and i could do weird butthole talk on this show and i could do serious fucking delicate watercolors that could be in a museum and i could do the most craziest like you can't fucking put me in a box and if you try to

i'm like i am better than you i'm better than you as a human being i'm better than you as an art and it was like my friends just like because it's easier when you're an alcoholic or drug addict you're like bro you're unhinged you're out of control but it was just narcissism hating myself self-destructive behavior just and the people would come up to come with me i'd bring them to because i controlled my addiction like i would i knew that i had a problem and i know the nature of addiction is you can't stop so i did something that i've never heard another addict do which is i would hire people close friends being like i'm an addict i cannot be trusted i'm a liar I'm a thief. And so when I'm in my gambling state, I don't hold my money. So as soon as I win the number I told you I'm win, I need you to punch me in the face. I need you to drag me away from the table because now I'm going to say anything to keep going. So I can never touch my own money. If you see me falling in love with the girl and going into my love addiction, I need you to come and punch me in my face. And like I gave permission for people to hurt me physically and to physically remove me. It's like,

Like, if I was an alcoholic, it would be, I'm at a bar, and after two drinks, if you see me take a third, boom, and drag me out of the bar. So in that way, very sadomasochistic, but successful. Like, I never, because I had someone, and they would only get paid if they got me to stop, right? But then I pay these people to stop me and then try to figure out ways to, you know. So at the height of my workahism is the height of my addiction. Like, I got every, I don't sleep. There's days, and then I had a heart attack when I was 35, an angina attack. I collapsed.

I collapsed. And, of course, like, a lot of stories, as soon as I didn't go to the hospital, as soon as I woke up, I was like, what the fuck was that? Like, I woke up 30 hours later, another day, and I just went back to gambling. But it was like, you know, I could go into euphoric recall and just start telling, like, but I don't want to, like, glamour. Because it's like, I figured out how to be in the world. If I have sex with lots of women and win lots of money and work really hard at all these jobs,

then I will be validated and congratulated and held up high in this culture, even though if I'm dying inside. I need to, I've spent so much time in shame. I need to go, I want to see what it feels like to be like a winner, you know? but then that's when I got there I go what do you do when you get to the heavy is the crown

it's lonely at the like I got to the top and I was like kind of boring let's the kid in the village with the match let's burn it down

we got here it's like and that was my childhood literally I would spend a lot of time building giant Legos with all the loot

like we had like all mismatched Legos that was like you know hand me downs and I would build a giant starship and my brother would come

cool and just smash it I was like I worked so long on that but that That was me doing, my brother is somewhere around about to destroy my career. Let me just do it myself.

Let me self-sabotage myself. Self-sabotage. It was like mini suicides, you know. And so it's all, I'm like, here I am. It's all, it's fine. I'm finally going to be, you know, validated as a human being, you know. And then I get, you know, I get advice telling me, hey, you get, you can't do your podcast and the news. And I go, then go fuck yourself.

you know and then we win the emmy but i'm not part of that anymore and then and then uh i can't keep track because i keep they're like did you know this artist got caught on saying i go it's on my podcast it was my podcast you don't fucking it's not like i i did it on purpose uh you know anyways it just kept happening and i i'm at the sickest i've been mentally and I'm trying to make sense of my situation while the world also has its own issues and I and I just I like I hit my bottom I just went so off the deep end

and my friends were all like you're gonna die like it's not like a normal OD with drugs but you you like literally had a heart attack from like not sleeping and gambling for like a week straight like masturbating nonstop to pornography just like video games like I couldn't stop playing Angry Birds which like everything's like so I can make a joke out of it and they're like that's your safety thing is to like make a joke

out of it and so I walk in to you know a meeting and and Channing Tatum's dude is like Channing ain't fucking working with you and it was it wasn't him it was like hey I've spent all it was the agency is like we've spent all this time building up a heart throb team idle thing he's not going to be fucking seen with a scumbag like you i go oh shit it's happening again shame i walk into 0.0 boardings like when i'm done it's you you're gonna here's a book deal with my publishing company it your show is going to be on cnn it's going to be exactly like mine but with art like you're going to travel around the art and it's like authentic to you because you already do that um i'm just like holy

Shit, dude. This is, it paid off. All the bad behavior, like, I met my kindred spirit and, and I knew he wasn't happy. That's one of my, I can't watch, like, it's been years since, since all that happened and I still, I can't, I can't, like I felt, I felt like I met someone who finally understood me. I know it wasn't him, but, you know, I don't remember the guy's name. I remember them, and they could have told me over the phone. They're like, Dave, it was like getting caught at the principal's office. It was like, and I'm pumped. I'm like, my mom was right, Jane Joe was right. Like, the most interesting man on the planet, like my friend, Tony, is like handing, you know, handing me the baton. Like, and I'm going to do them, like, I'm going to go for it.

Like, I wasn't married. I didn't have kids. I'm like, I'm going to fucking. Really, really, like, I took it so seriously. Went to Nat Geo and, like, took all the meetings and, you know, I remember sitting at a table just like this and the whole 0.0 production team is like, we love Tony. Like, he goes, but we are not working with you. And I go, you couldn't fucking send an email? Like, what are you shaming?

And all of this is fuel for me. Like, they don't know this. I'm like, the more you fucking do this to me, the more. you're giving me my drug which I'm chasing which is anger and shame it's a fucking powerful drug right and I go okay just another on the list that I got to prove wrong like I will make you regret

the same way Chip regrets fucking talking like I will make you feel you come at me you better fucking kill me because I'm going to fucking destroy you now like I am going to make the most awesome show ever and you know Tony called me in a poll He's like, dude, I don't, like, they're their own company.

Like, we work together, but they, you know, the optics aren't good. And I go, all right, you know. And I was like, I missed it by that much. Like, so it, and, and I had grown accustomed to it. Like, this was, it's not a new, it's, if I, if I, if I, I could just keep telling another's, like, oh, and then Marvel would reject me. Then DC, then, blah, blah. The episode. I did with Tony, I take him the sizzler.

I show him how I fucking did a fusion with a meatball and a taco. It was true to me, right? You know, I hammed it up a little bit for the camera. I wore my, like, shiny red sizzler suit, but that was me. That was how my family, and it resonated. It was the most watched episode, like, I introduced him to Estevan Oriole and Mr. Cartoon. He loved all the lowrider cars.

It was a fucking L.A. episode, and it was like my friends, and it was like, it was awesome. I felt so good, and I just started getting... Like, Sizzler asked me to be their spokesperson. Like, and the episode is me talking shit about how horrible their food is, but it has this... I'll do it, guys, I'll do it. And so they're, you know, they're like, it's the most watched episode of that. And then we won an Emmy for that season. And I'm just like...

And then that happens. And I'm like, holy shit. And then you go on Netflix or whatever it was on, and that episode's just missing. I mean, it's back now, but they took it off. And I was like... just keep striking, you know, and I'm like, what did I do? You know, like me playing Vick, like, what did I do? Did I do that?

Like, I'm Urkel. I'm like, you're a fucking idiot, dude. You do dumb shit that you shouldn't do. You should shut the fuck up and just, and when I meet the most powerful intellectually, like just these powerhouse humans, once again, doesn't always have to be sexual abuse, but it usually is. with men right i mean women i don't know that experience because i'm not a woman but for a man to take your humanity like that then i see because it's a PTSD it's right post-traumatic stress

disorder but then every now and then like i don't know what the exact stats are you get pt i'm making this up ptg post-traumatic growth disorder it's like that should have turned me into a drug addict homeless person but instead i took all that pain and i was like K, rage, I'll show you. I'll fucking show you. You should have never done that to me. You should have never. You should have never minimize me

and put me down and disregarding me. And now I have to teach you a lesson. And I have to show you who you're fucking with it. And it's such a horrible... It's such a painful... It's such a painful way to live life. And I can't live with that pain, so I have to just keep doing more. It's never... I have to just keep showing you...

showing you that I'm enough so then I'm just I'm living in like a very I know I'm telling a very name-droppy like douche LA story but you know I have Anthony Bourdain who's I consider a friend and my hero and my idol like I was in a gang called Koreans God Bad. That was two people, me and my friend Harry Kim. But we wrote it everywhere. KGB, everywhere. And then I remember the episode

came out and he wrote KGB forever or something like that. Koreans God. I'm like fucking, my gang is Harry Kim and Anthony Bourdain. Like, I was like, it just, it made me so happy that it's like Tony Bourdain is

repping my set, you know, like I'm a fucking gang, you know, it's like, it was two fucking dumb asses just writing drawing dumb buck tooth whales and i mean i miss that guy so much the people that were close to him uh like you and joe yeah it's the same response always so then i i'm you know i'm like lost i'm i'm i'm getting closer and closer to hitting my version of a bottom and i get uh i get a call from david arquette like the actor you know and i i love all the arcettes you know but um david you know this is la shit right he just reaches out and he's like hey i'm watching tv right now with my i think fiance

at the time and we just saw your anthony born and he's like that's the most fucking la shit he's like i wrote i was in a uh crew called kgb kids gone bad and i was like no karene's gone bad you know um And he goes, it's crazy. Like, I used to do graffiti and tag. I used to write KGB. And I grew up eating at Sizzler with my family. And he goes, and I'm turning, I forgot. He was like, I'm turning 45 or 50.

I forgot how old he was. But it was like a big one, like 40. And I'm having it at like, you know, Sizzler's almost out of business. I think there's like three left in L.A. And he's like, and it's at the Sizzler that I grew up. And I would love for you to be here. And all that stuff always, all like weird celebrity. celebrity stuff always makes me nervous because I'm like, I don't know if they're going to be fake or, you know, and I'm a sensitive person. Like if I'm meeting new people and they don't like me, I'm like, oh, I'm a piece of, you know, I'm sensitive. I'm a sensitive artist. So I go to Sizzler with my friend Critter. I was like, hey, can you come with me? And we get to Sizzler and it's packed. And there's the buffet bar with the cheese toast. And he's like, Dave, Dave, I want you to meet some friends here. Come sit at this table. And I sit down. And I sit down. And I sit down.

And it's Sasha Baron Cohen, like my fucking hero, and Pee Wee Herman. And I'm like, holy fuck, dude. And, you know, both of them are just huge art fan. So, like, they don't know my art, but, you know, David Arquette talking. He's like, this guy's an awesome artist. And they're like, oh, cool, we want to check it out. So, you know, Sasha Baron Cohen, like, collects a lot of Banksy and this. And he's like, fuck, dude, I got to come to your studio.

I got to, you know. So then I'm like, oh, cool. Once again, like this, oh, people like me. And if people like me, then maybe I like myself, you know, like. And it's nice to be liked. It feels good to be validated and liked by people that you look up to, right? So especially, Pee Wee Herman's my art god. Like I said, Bob Ross, Mr. Rogers, dope.

But for me, that's what I grew up on. That fucking character, the full commitment to that character, the voice, the king. of cartoon penny the stop motion animation i just he's it spoke to me you know uh all the gary panter art so um i go fuck i don't know when i'm gonna meet this guy again i go hey uh i don't know 20 years ago 15 years ago you did a movie called blow and he's like oh yeah blow you know i go hey uh did you ever remember like getting a porn package on your step and he's like And like, I'm trying to read his eyes. Like, no, I don't remember that.

I was like, ah, I guess someone, you know. But I did get his number that night. And then, you know, as I get, I hit, like, I wouldn't be here today without my friends, just all who love me came. And they're like, Dave, you're not, like, it went too far this way. You know, you used to be this sweet, nice, humble guy and just, you just, you need a lot of help. So I like everything else. I just dedicate, I stopped, I, obviously it was the hardest thing I ever did in my life, but including plant medicine, therapy, rehabs, men's groups, 12-step meetings, just I, whatever if

someone said it was going to help you, I'm like, you're just breaking, like, generations of, oh, all fucking Asians hit their kids, all, you know, everyone got sent away, every, you know, just like, I know, but I, I want it to stop. It's either I fucking kill myself or I need it to stop. and enough people caring about me made me care about myself enough and i and i did what i got the podcast the band like people and they go they'll be fine everyone's gonna figure it out and i and i got help and um you know as soon as i was out of the first rehab like 45 days i was like i'm gonna do podcast about this and they're like Matt out there he's just like hey uh why don't you live this life before you start telling it's like but i learned so many ago yeah but why don't you implement it in

your life and so i'm 49 now i rarely do podcasts i'd still do something creative every single day i like to do it with other people i i've i've you know i'd like to thank the sponsor today for this god you know i know people are like oh you're you're all your religious i go I don't believe, you know, I don't believe in God, but I still pray to him. And like God, whatever you want to call it the, like, whatever that is, whatever that thing that controls telepathy and Santa and connection and all this, he doesn't care if I believe in him. He's still there, right?

It's like such an ego thing. I don't believe. Who cares what you? The thing, it's like saying you don't believe in the ocean. The ocean is still there. So I want to thank that guy. And so as I live this life, And then I start to be, like, what is my purpose?

Why am I here? What is, you know, before your art was about, like, disgustingness and offending people. And it was just to fuck you. Just showing people, hey, Asian people aren't all quiet. Like, you're a rebel. Like, you're supposed to shut the fuck up and become a lawyer or a doctor. And then just, like, I always tell people, they go, how do I make it? I want to be.

I go, I'm an expert in disappointing my parents. You must disappoint your parents. like my dad is so disappointed at me over and over again until he's not but i'm like what would have happened if i didn't disappoint him i would have got a pretty high SAT i would have you know probably been on my second marriage lawyer golf like and he'd be like uh i don't know i don't know but i i know that he's proud of me now and it was like a long hard path to get there and so um i go I, and part of me, you know, if you can't tell by now, it goes like this, the pendulum swings very hard. So I said to myself, I'm going to, like everything up until now has been about, look at me,

let me show you. And it's like, and I go, it's, it's, I got to take some space for me now. And, and, and, and, you know, I work with all these youth groups and stuff. And people go, hey, you know, you did a lot of media. And you did a lot of shit where you put yourself out there showing the worst part of yourself and trying to prove to people that you're not a good person's like you know it would it would like touch people and help people to see like your journey and your path and I go fuck that I'm not going to put myself through that like I'm taking space and they're like yeah but like at some point are you going to share your story and I go no that's too literal I hate words words can be confused words can be misconstrued I'm not doing that I'm just I'm just doing this and this is enough

like your ego goes oh i'm working with 12 kids today but if it was filmed it could reach millions of people and it's like no you're working with 12 kids today and that's it and that's enough right um but then at some point after year this is years a decade of recovery um i thought well part of the reason why i hate working with not and like netflix hulu it doesn't matter like they're all corporations they could be cool or whatever but And even podcast, which was, that's the conversation we had. I'm like, it all gets edited. It's like as soon as anything gets a little.

And so I go, I'll just make my own show because I have money to do that. And it's not going to cost that much. And then if someone wants to buy it, they will or they won't. So I started making my version of Pee We's Playhouse, which was the show show. And it came out on FX on Hulu. And I got to learn what taking. notes and having you know corporate feedback and whatever i'm grateful that it happened but they killed a lot of the episodes and um and everyone's like what's your who's your dream guest and i was like it doesn't

matter i'll talk to anybody i'll talk to like the garbage man i'll talk to you know but they're like it's for tv so you should try to get some celebrities or well-known people and i was like i i want pee we herman you know and uh i had his number still from sizzler so i called them and i you know And Pee-W-Herman's like, I don't know if he's just one of those people that once he gets your contact info, you get a birthday message from him every year or a Christmas card. And I was like, it just every time I got it, I would send show all my friends. I'm like, it just made me feel so good. So, yeah, I have those emails that Sean Parker said about like what he wanted from my art to disrupt the world. I have the nice message from Howard Stern and I have the voice.

So I called Peewee and he's like, Dave, I got some stuff, some health stuff going on. And he's like, I feel honored. Thank you. Like, you know, I love your art. You know, now he got to learn a little bit about me. And he's like, and I would love to be on your show. But I just, I don't know. I don't want to be on camera anymore.

And he's like, you could send the episodes and I'll give you some like, if you open to it. I was like, of course. I was like, of course, you know. And it was just, it just like I couldn't. I couldn't believe that I was talking to him and he like was talking back to me as an equal and then, I mean, but I got it right away. He's not going to do it, you know. And then at the end, right before I hung up, he goes, you paint butts really good. Oh, man.

He got it. He got it. And I, you know, he's like, I'm old. I don't want to talk on the. microphone so I don't know if that answered your question about the South Bay I know that was a long answer for the one question you asked me but I don't know like when people like I feel like you're an open person so if you ask me something I'm like and you're ready to go into my head space and we can go there together,

then I feel, like, cared for, listen to. And, like, I'm like, because, you know, you listen, and they're not present. They're looking at their phone. They're like, okay, this show is two hours. And I'm like, I got a lot, you know, and that's also how I write. Very long run-on sentences, no punctuation.

So there's no, like, creativity is such a hard thing to have a conversation about because it's not, like my my path is not someone else's path and um and today it's just every day i wake up which with what i didn't have before which is gratitude i just wake up and it's like i had a horrible day today like it was not good like the fucking like flat tire uh appointment canceled move back fucking crazy family shit happening with my dad and i was just like i i wasn't going to cancel but the feeling was like it's not this not the right headspace to go and then i said you know what every like i could sit there and like self uh analyze oh you have

depression you have this and it's like almost some weird ocd like and you and you're a horrible person and you and you you have antisocial traits and then go okay and then what are you going to do about it you know and so i i sit back now and if i examine my life like a scientist i go hey uh what was what was what was all that shit about on your pot why did you say that stuff on your podcast why why did you like do that thing that's against your value system why did you what was about the fucking like all the suicidal ideation all the stuff times you try to like what was that about, you know? And not just, like I said, like logically, I know if I sound hypocritical, not just trying to like analyze it, like, but just an examination of my own, like doing an x-ray

of my heart. It's like, what were you feeling then and what, and why, like, what is the shame hitting and why did you do that? And like, so I sit there and I go, we live in a, I'll use I live in the way the culture I was grown was, when someone asks you how you're doing, it's just good, okay, which aren't emotions. That's all you say. You don't go, oh, let me tell you, like, I'm feeling shame today. And, you know, so we live, I live in, I live, I was raised in a culture of everything's fine, everything's okay, get along to go along.

You know, I was a lot of like Asian, the only Asian family in like a white neighborhood or black neighborhoods was like don't it's a lot of immigrant story right like don't rock the boat don't do anything to stand out we're guests in this country we're lucky to be here don't do basically everything i did you know like you know keep clear up the campground leave it nice and so i sit here and if i'm being introspective um this is all this stuff is like this is why i say this would be intimate because it's just private stuff that I don't like I'm trying to just you know know my own heart so it's like what why what is the insane opening Pokemon packs about like right you could turn that into a joke or like what is what is the unmet need like

what is your depression telling you right now what is your anger tell if your anger is like if your anger is like unmatched with like oh there was like a little flare up at school some kids said something to your kid and then like your response is like yeah like what's that about so instead of shaming myself and going I'm a piece of shit oh I did all this work and I and I'm still this it's just and I think if I can get quiet and right sized in that moment instead of oh I need to like make a story in my head to be like and just just sit in that ugliness and uncomfortable like if I can do that I couldn't do that before I can't like you have to either look at me like I'm nothing or I'm the greatest I can't

just oh Dave's kind of boring today or he's kind of not making sense or he feels like I couldn't it had to be all or nothing it was very black and white very Christian the way I was raised OCD like God's way or Satan's way and so now I just go that's that's Palo Alto if I could find the Palo Alto in my heart just like the mundane culturally like it's If I could sit in the boring, mundane space and I dare to be mediocre, dare to be moderate and just, like, like I'm, like I said, the feeling is like, oh, what's, what's the sensations? And I could, then that's where the brilliance is. Then I could find my inner spark. I could find.

And, and, and then in that is when I feel the closest to you and other, like, if I'm with another person who's closed, this is like. Just like banging my head against the wall, but if I can meet another spirit or soul and you're, it doesn't have, I don't have to agree with you. But it's like you're, I don't, like, I've been talking my ass off. I understand that. Like, we could, we could go all night, right? And if you share with me your heart, then it's a shared brokenness. You don't get to where Andrew Huberman doesn't get to this with a smooth, like shit went down. I don't know, but it's on your face. And it's like a vibrational thing, right? Like, you don't, you don't fucking tattoo your whole body if everything was cool, right?

You don't just become as smart as you are without, like, if you want to destroy me intellectually, you can. Like, I wouldn't, I would be like, like, like, right? So if I can sit in and be vulnerable and sit like, hey, I'm not perfect, but I'm not a piece of shit, I'm enough. Like, I don't need to do anything today. And that's, for me, that was like, like these cultural moments of watching outcast be inducted into the Hall of Fame in Andre 3000 going, I'm not going to rap. But everyone wants you to. That's not where I'm at right now.

I'm just going to, I was like, fucking amazing, you know? Or Tarantino's saying Paul Dano, it's like the worst part of there will be blood. I was like, wow, that's the best thing that ever happened. You saw like everyone come out to say how brilliant. he is i mean what if tarantino just said paul dano's amazing then that would just so i just find these like what is um without trying to like psychoanalyze or overanalyze every moment of my life just go the space right because i i've done the brain mapping and they're like the way it was explained to me they dumped it down they're like you're not a psychopath because you do like

you do psychopathic things but you actually care about people you're not a psychopath and they say the space in your brain there's like a bridge like here's reality you know he's like it's like should I jump off this cliff

and like most people will executive function like oh okay maybe I'm going to get hurt and like that that bridge is smaller for people like you they saw like a little they go so you don't really think you just do and then that's how you're like

how did I end up in jail how did I fucking like and and that makes her great story that makes for a great fucking life or like a storybook crazy life that makes for and then that's a story that's just told like you need to be a fucking psychotic insane crazy person to be the greatest artist right if you're just like a you know boring person living at home with like air conditioning and wi-fi and your warm cup of earl gray and you could do good art you could even do great art but you won't ever be the best because you're not you're not

facing your shadow you're not looking at yourself you're just that's just technique that's just craft that's just skill like i'm ripping my fucking heart out and showing to you and be like what do you think i'm not saying what do you think i'm like fucking what do you think you know no i i i feel it that i mean i i i i um sorry there's like spit all over the table please don't apologize don't apologize. I'm slobbering. I'm slobbering right into your microphone. No apology. You guys almost got me there. No apology. I feel it. I mean, I, I, um, I feel it. And, and everybody feels it. And, um, if they don't, they should take a look inside. Like, we're, we're, we're, we're, it's going to sound like I'm name dropping now, but go ahead. I'm very, I'm very, I'm

feel very blessed to have Rick Rubin as my close friend, right? Not because he's Rick Rubin who produced all this music, that's super cool too, but because he has antennae, and he can feel shit. Yeah. And he can feel it, but he doesn't get absorbed in it. It's very interesting. I don't have that. Yeah.

I feel stuff and it, like, the, it just, and I am certain people feel your heart in what you do. The self-sacrifice part is hard to hear about. I can relate. Well, I talked to Rob a little bit because he's like a PR dude before. Was a PR. He's like a producer now. I mean, he's out of it. That smile hides a lot of pain right there.

Look at that smile. But, yeah, I, yeah, it's hard. Like, you know, they say all these, like, dumb quotes, like, no is a complete sentence. And it is, right? I go no and then I have to make up some fake like, oh, but like I got, you know, my car did get a flat tire, but that was a, that used to be a thing I would make up. And then people would be like, let me see the metadata on your phone and make sure that's not a screenshot from like two years. You know, like, so I would lie and make up excuses, but the ability to, it goes against how I was raised.

it goes against my culture to just say no to my parents, no to jobs, no to think, like leaving money on the table, saying so that I could put myself first for the first time and nurture my own heart and take care of myself is like, it just sounded like that's, I'd already written my story. I'm like, you know, and then when you have heroes like Bourdain, like I think a lot of people also kill. themselves after Bourdain did that because they're like if the most interesting man on the planet the guy that's a role model a guy look up to like he's not he can't fucking figure it out then fuck what's there and and then almost validates it like it's so you can do it too like anyone

like uh so i it was just it's just I had it written out like everyone I look to look up to and it's so fucking boring and cliche when I think about it makes me so angry it's like you know live fast die young and then just have people say nice shit about you and it's like or just be a little bit more boring and have wonderful relationships like I you call me and you're probably busy I'm like I'm not that busy dude I'm not a busy person I make a lot of space for myself now I don't like I and I deserve it like I I owe that to myself Yeah, I was about to say you've earned it, but you never needed to earn it, you know. Yeah. I'm glad to hear it because...

Will you commit to taking a year off? I could use some time off. All right, so that sounds like... I'll start the negotiations at a year, and then if I can get you anywhere close to that. Because people will be like, oh, shit. You know, like, the American vacation is like a week or two weeks, right? That's nothing. That's, like, barely enough time to...

Yeah, I have all these war stories. I don't want to make this about me, but I have all these war stories like, you know, my girlfriend at the time, she'll validate these as, you know, being, you know, diarrhea and vomiting while writing a grant back when. And, you know, I mean, if I, I've had so many wonderful opportunities, but I've been going pretty hard into the paint since I was 19. Like, that means nonstop. That means, like, 50 to 100 hour weeks since then.

Like, what's the longest vacation you've ever taken in your life? Four days. I mean, this isn't me deflecting. It's just like I just met you and like I'm so happy that like I was like if I can if he gives me the space to speak what you did and you can feel what I like what I was trying to say and like to me like that's all I want is connection right like that's I want to be seen now before I was hiding and wearing masks. But in that I felt you and I go I didn't know what you were going to say but I was like it's going to be less than a week because you don't get. Because I know. You don't get to where nobody does. Everyone pays the price. You don't get to where you are right now by taking time off. You just don't. But like you just said to me, I'll say it back to you. You deserve it. And to speak to the workaholic part of you, and I say this to people that are like you and me, you will have more ideas, more inspiration. You can't think now because you're thinking about. how's Rob going to get paid? How's the...

Because you take care of a lot of people, right? But in that time, I could come. I could get rid of all this black. I could add some color here. I could get you some white t-shirts. You could spend time with your family. Just the shit that you're running from, you know? And I feel like, okay, a year is unrealistic.

You're like, I'm running... You know, but it's... It will, like, people go do plant medicine. I was like, just taking a year off. And first weeks or months will just... be you unlearning the workaholism of just I got to do something to have value and just and I feel like it will when you come back you'll be like like a thousand you know like and sometimes in our culture we get knocked down not by our choice and then but I'm like this

would be by your choice you know I I taking care of Andy today love you Rob love you all you guys there, but, you know, you know what? I'll run your podcast while you're gone. That would be sick. I'll do all the science. You could feed me some big words to use, but. And I'll go paint. Oh, my God.

I'm going to, yeah, I feel more comfortable with you now. It's like, like, I think I would lie to you. Like, whatever you showed me, I'd be like, oh, that's cool. But, like, I think it's cool that anyone who's an egghead who spends time up here, I think every. thinker needs to spend time playing music or painting because it's just it's the opposite of that right you're using the other side of your brain but it sounds like the way you're painting is very in your head and i would just rip you out of that and i it would be very uncomfortable but then

you could see the kind of like life right you just see throw shit at the wall and see what sticks and and and through that it's about control right i i I had to, you know, and part of being in 12-step in recovery is like, and, you know, and the wisdom to know the difference, you know, the serenity prayer is I had to, like, you can't control Mother Nature, you can't control a fire, you can't control what other people are going to think about you or say about you, you just can't. You could try to, let me write a paper and, like, so that, and, and, and, and, yeah, you could do that for a little bit, but it's tiring and it's exhausting to try to get all these people to believe what, you know, like, and, and, and so I, yeah, I just, it, it, it, it's anti, it goes, it goes against the word winning and the win surrender, right? Like, I win every day because I surrender constantly now. And part of that, I, I, it goes, it's anti, it goes against to, to, to the word winning, and the win surrender, right? Like, like, I win every day, and part of that, I, I, I, I, I, I I got to still fight because it's like you sound like a loser. Why are you giving up? Right? It's going to fucking shut the fuck up.

Pick yourself up by your bootstraps and get back in. Like that's how you become the best. Like all the other artists, they're like dealing with, like, you don't have kids. You don't get married. You fucking paint. You go to the art store. You buy all the paint up. You fucking keep painting.

You steal all the paints. It's like, just keep painting. Never stop. And it's all going to be worth it because one day you're going to die and then legacy. but now we see legacy is nothing right i get i get in an uber get in the car fucking smells like teen spirit right one of the greatest anthems ever guy in the car 27 years what's this well i'll tell you you don't know fucking nirvana okay you have you seen good fella like whatever whatever who's the godfather like go down the list

the greatest nobody cares right the greatest so it's just this it's just this it's just this This is all you have. So you've done enough. People fucking love you. You've helped so many people. And I want you to take one year off. And I don't care if people are like, fuck that guy. That guy helps me every day.

I want to yours soothing voice every night. But I'm like, AI, bro. Just use AI. No, I'm kidding. I'm just saying I would love whatever you've been running from, whatever you've been doing to, like, you help a lot of people. but do you help yourself on that level? And it's like, yeah, starting painting, that's taking care of it.

Like, it's not complete all or nothing, but someone like you and other people like you are not going to outsmart the feeling, right? You're not going to outrun the pain. And it's like, like, I don't know what your father was like. I don't know what your mom was like, but they're proud of you. Like, you don't need to do more. Like, they're proud of you. And, like, if you go to what I said, the only way to really make them proud is to disappoint them.

You just got a fucking, Andrew, I'm really disappointed in you. Then you know you're doing something right, you know. Sorry for talking over you. No, I was interrupting. What are, like, your face says a lot, so I just want to know what you're, try to. Well, the part about legacy is where I was interrupting, but it's not, let's let it pass because yes and yes. the legacy thing it it's nothing it's nothing um like i've done i feel like i've done so much in acting like i've done all these things and people are like who's that chinese kid i'm like it doesn't

matter well they don't say it doesn't matter like you do all this stuff so that you have something to leave behind and i go you just have this you just have like right now today and that's it and like we're gonna we did this today and then and then it's off to the universe i i can't control what people are going to think about me and it's like I came here today with my intention of meeting you telling you how you make me feel and how like how much I appreciate you and I did that so that's it and like I have no ill will I'm not trying to like yeah I probably talk shit about a lot of people right now but it's like fine okay that's that's my and I should probably just let all that stuff go but to tell someone who's used to winning who's fought like tooth and nail for everything

they had to fight and like prove people wrong over and over again to tell someone like that hey just surrender it's like fuck you dude you don't like you don't tell me to that like um so yeah that journey from head to heart is it's a big one and that's why the like you can't say that to everyone right because they're like I got a fucking but I'm like I don't know your financial situation but I think you could take a year off like it's not for but that's the other thing right like it must be nice Dave from your perspective

and I go I was homeless like I've lived the worst like like people for like I know I sound defensive but like I wasn't born rich

like I worked for this so it's like it must sound nice from a rich guy's perspective and I go if if I think back to my happiest moments or even just my most

creative moments it was always less it was never more right so when I lived in a tiny house that means less doors to open less walls to we're living together and it's you know and it's fucking cold but at least we got body you know i'm making it sound like uh you know like we're we were okay but i'm like we didn't have that much and it was it was great because we had each

other and and i think back and i go okay creative output let's go to work you know let's go back into my head i go oh every time i had like a renaissance level creative explosion there was no Wi-Fi and there was no heater. It was always freezing. It was cold. Like, you're talking about deprivation. Yeah. Like, and then now, like, it's just, it would be with my attention, it would be impossible for me to get anything done if I didn't go out of my way to block all my electronic devices. I couldn't do it. My social media is on a separate phone. It goes into a lockbox that can't be coded out. Hey, you don't need to get work done. I mean, what I hear, well, first of all, I want to be clear that um i don't need an answer from you i'm just throwing the the challenge of the gauntlet

down right i would love for you to take one year off as someone who i just met who i care about and i like um we're humans right can't just run forever like there needs to be a recharge a refresh like there's just things that i i get offered i guess you're like i'm never going to do that i'm not saying why don't you why don't you go to this retreat and just work on this part of your heart or this part of your journey for a month. You're like, I'm not going to fucking do that. And it's like, but why not? You deserve it. And it's going to be hard. It's not like a fun vacation. And like for me, the way I think about it is part of part of like what, because I take podcasting. So like I'm it does. I try to manicure how I look and sound and I do a lot of

people and I try to make it look like I didn't right like before I go on Joe Rogan or Howard Stern I like I call up people and I fucking do like I talk for 12 I go is this work is like and then I come on and I try and and that's fake and it's been years since I did a podcast I was like I I'm getting like a very genuine feeling from you and so I don't want to do that today and I was fucking that's what I was puking I was scared I was like I'm just going to come in and I might see something that like fucks me up because it has so many times, but I'm just going to be the truest version of, I guess I could, that was scary to me. That was like really being naked. Like I, I like to be prepared. And I, like, last

night, it was late. I couldn't sleep. And I was like, oh, fuck, I can't believe. Because it's like, I live a quiet, like, I don't. And I was like, oh, man, like, it was like, let me, like, not like you're the enemy. I was like, oh, I'm going into enemy territory. What if he has, like, got you a question like i have to have uh uh you know like it was it was like i was at vice again you know vice was so much riffing and witty comebacks and i was like this is exhausting and i was like but can you just go and just you know and i and i realize it took me like two hours to answer like one question but that's i also accept that about myself you know um but yeah i started like i started i drew and then it was like your it finishes your name and

And I was like, I'm not going to do this. I don't want to do this. I don't want to just fucking read about you all night. And then, like, have come in, like, prepared. Great. Great. I was like, I'm so glad. I'm so glad you abandoned that.

I did. I did. I said, just fucking told me. Dude. Yeah. Man, I'm so grateful you showed up here that in that frame, that no frame frame. Yeah. I know as soon as I start talking, if I say anything kind about you,

you're going to get that thing. But I'm just going to tell you, I'll tell you. I'll help prepare. There are a couple reasons you're here. Some of them I touched on earlier. Your amazing artist. You're an amazing person. But the main reason you're here is because a long time ago,

I saw you at a meeting and I learned from you there. And I was like, you know, I would like to be his friend. Oh, wow. And I know I can learn a lot from him. Oh, my God. So without getting into any details about that. I mean, you can. I don't care.

Well, maybe another time. I told you. You know, you've helped me a ton. I also, like, I have this model in my head. Maybe this is the scientist in me where, but I feel like you've made yourself like the anvil, the hammer, end of metal. And it's like this cycle of the opportunity to, to do something, to feel something.

And then, you know, I guess my friend Ryan Suave was right. He said, you know, people get addicted to shame. But to me, it's the whole cycle, right? But the thing that I really want you to take in is that people learn from what comes out of your mouth. They don't, like, yes, the stories are interesting, infinitely interesting and entertaining also. And yes, you have a gift for storytelling,

just like you have a gift for art. but it's people learn and you know we touched on Bourdain who I didn't know I know you and Joe were both close to him I know a couple other people were close to him and you know I'm not here on a public service campaign

that's not how I do this podcast I'm only here with you right now but you know there are a lot of people often themselves close friend do that recently a very famous scientist that appeared to have everything this kind of thing

and it's happening more and more and I think that when people People hear you, when I hear you, I know what people hear. They feel you and they hear the extent to which, yeah, there are a lot of hard stuff and great stuff happened, but you're still here and you're still going. And that example is really, really important. Well, I don't want to, I don't want to be a survivor. You know, it's like I'm a survivor because I survived all this stuff, but so did everybody. and I'm not trying to like...

But you're still going. But I don't want to survive. I want to thrive. Right. You're a thriver. That's why I think of like Korean Jesus or Pee We Herman and I go, it was like I try to keep things light and entertaining. It was a lot. It was really painful, right?

If you get it, it wasn't easy. And it wasn't easy for everyone. But so then you go, well, will you work on yourself? Will you do this work? Will you go to a meeting? It's like, are we having a. fun yet, right? It's like, it's a lot of fucking pain and work to just be, you know, and the question is like, I want to put, is like, are we having fun yet? Like, isn't, aren't we supposed

to have fun? Like, you know, my son wakes up every morning laughing. I go, what the fuck is happening up there? What is, like, I can't remember the last time I woke up smiling. It's like, and I'm like, oh, if we can remember. like I like it was dumb doing the secret word but I I loved it like you guys scared the shit like I I you know and it's people uh you know trigger warning they do like there's a lot of people killing themselves like on an epidemic men like I don't know that many women but a lot of men and so powerful tool because because I've done so much reckless I am it's a miracle that I'm here right now and I'm not saying that to be like oh I just no I think I

I could have been dead a lot of time no I think God's been looking out for you so I say to myself without aggrandizing myself or being on like some guru Messiah type shit like so I made I made it through that I am having fun despite how much I cry and stuff but even that like I wouldn't I would be called a pussy and all that if I did that and I go I just allowing myself to feel everything and and and so i i i learned this tool called just play the tape out right so you go if you're an idiot you're an idiot but if you have any level of intelligence you go well how do you think this ends for you how do you think this drug problem ends for you how do you think cheating on your wife ends for you? How do you think nonstop? Like it doesn't end well, right? That's

one of my favorite things to tell my friend. That's okay right now. It's Mago. But addiction and it just, it just escalates. It doesn't stay. You don't just kind of like, and then someone like me, it escalates very quickly. So it's dangerous. And an addiction loves novelty, right? So if someone's sucking dick for crack in an alley right now, that little boy, he never, he wasn't a little boy when they go, I hope I do that one day. That happened. It started with weed. Then I went to Coke and it just escalated, right? He wasn't like, I want to do degrading acts that I don't want to do for drugs, but it escalated. And that's on the attic side, but I just found myself having a lot of, I swear, like weird broken problem. I swear I'll never do that. But then I'm like,

here I am in this weird place doing weird shit that's going against my value system. Here I am. Oh, I'm chasing the shame again. So I know this is kind of hypocritical because I'm applying logic again. But if you just talk to someone and you use this tool of, hey, you're not an idiot, play the tape out. Your behavior that's like chasing a bottom or destructive or not that destructive yet, but it's on the path. And you're like, yeah, it'll be all right. It's like, just play it out.

Like, how do you think this ends for you? right i go i need to go back to podcasting right and i and then i go on these podcasts and i go are we having fun yet or is it like you seem like you got the weight of the world on your shoulders you seem miserable you seem like you can find like i'm not just like in general i don't find podcasters like happy people it's just it's just like a it's just like i go so when are like went like you know and oh look cut let's go and it's like oh shit sponsors It's like, I got to fucking, the numbers are going down. And I'm like, can we have fun?

Like, is it only about making money and just, it's enough? Like, if, and it's because we live in a society, especially if you live in a city where the messaging from billboards to social, everything is telling you from the second you wake up. It's not hundreds. It's thousands of messages telling you you're not enough, right? and so I do the brain mapping I do it and it's like wow Dave you're really hard on yourself you say so much it's it's it's it's like if someone said that to my friend I would I would do something so it's like a lot of punishing like self-talk and then it feels gay to say I'm enough I'm you know it's like that's that again why why do you have to say it like that it's like oh I'm

I am a good person. I am a good father. I am a good friend. I am a good brother. You know, it's like, this sounds like just self-help. But I'm, I was able to brainwash myself into believing I was the best artist in the world till. So why can't I brainwash myself into thinking I'm a good person? So then I go, when I meet people, I want to say nice stuff, like real stuff, not like, that's how I feel. I was like, that's weird. I don't want to just tell someone his shirt fits good on him, but it does. I mean, even for black, it does. So the tools is like, you know, writing with deodorant, like a thick white chunky deodorant, just so I see it. So it's in my psyche because it's every day it's billboards of good looking people and I don't look like that.

And so the messaging is all fucked up. And unless I'm just going to say fuck all internet and just move to the African wilderness, which I might do, I just write on the wall. I am worthy. I'm enough. And I see it every morning when I wash my face. and it's just like I'm starting to brainwash myself it's like that's one tool is like telling people I love and I care about how I feel about them

not till they're dead not till it's like they're in their bottom and I'm like hey and it's like I tell them every day because that's that's all we have and then I say that about myself and then I can catch myself like that bridge that was like basically I got suicide bridge it's like reckless behavior reckless irresponsible behavior immature behavior but all of this shit is hard because I'm coming at

with generations of a story that says, you need to stay sick. Like when you hear Kanye say, bipolar is my superpower. Like, there's a part of me that's like, of course. And I like my artist fucked up. The more fucked up you are, that's true genius.

That's, you know, and I go, you know, I have friends close to me that go, as someone who's as creative as you is so, you're so like boring and small thinking when you just buy into those things. it's like is there anyone who lives a moderate life just a regular does everything doesn't have to be jumping on a train and like that is doing great art and I go show me an example there's and I go but couldn't you be the first well there's ego and narcissists and it's just like just and then okay fine let's just go let's go with let's play that tape out let's just say for you to make the choice to be a normal person you're never going to have the best podcast or the best art you're just going to be kind of like right there 70% what's wrong with that you know but that's not that's going against everything right so i have to it's hard you know and it and especially something with art where it's in there's just people that

are like you're literally doing the worst art i've ever seen in my life you know i wish you know it's like oh their first album was good type shit you know and there's part of me that's like yeah the earlier stuff had more angst and way more detail and more labored over and the stuff now is way more looser and but i love it now like i like i like myself how i feel and it's it's very rare that you have it's you know the whole lonely at the top that you have these champions people that are like the best at what they do the top one percent of the world champion of this this that you meet them and they're just like a content satisfied happy they're just miserable and you're like what was the point what why and why and

And it's either you have the courage through yourself and friends to make that change. Like, if you take a year off, like, we're going to hang out a lot. Like, we're going to pay. That's awesome incentive. Like, we're going to do all that. But it's like, it's always like, you got to do it alone. That was my message. Like, shut the fuck up.

Don't complain. Like, very Asian, very Korean. Like, don't say anything. Like, someone fucking treats you like shit. just keep your head down and just it's all revenge is a dish best serve coal you know just fucking shut don't ever let them know see what you coming see how you feel and just your your your revenge is success like just like that guy treated you shit at work then just become the guy that owns that business and then fire him you know like um oh i'm so

fucking glad that guy chip got fired that felt so good chip sounds like an asshole he was such an asshole but I so you just I have in those things all these tools are like okay cool they're all simple okay wake up every day and say I'm a good person yeah it's simple but it's hard it's not easy you have to like work at it and feel it yeah like oh get up every day and do 100 push-ups I could do that but I don't but you could it's like but you care about your physical health but why wouldn't you do that for your mental health your spiritual health you know oh I'm not religious is like spirituality is it's the ocean it's the universe it's it's a power greater than you right so um so i yeah that that that playing the tape out is a very valuable powerful like

i i need to take action in this way and and sometimes the action is to do less and it's to do nothing where everything growing up was do more and I was going to say am I making any sense but through your face I could see that I feel like I feel I feel heard and I feel understood in this moment which is very special to me so thank you thank you you you are absolutely heard and you're absolutely understood and I'm very grateful to you and I know everyone listening is to the permission to tell oneself and feel that they are enough is that's oddly the hardest thing but the encouragement is is hurt it lands I think also because I talk so much about shame and I'll I'll end it with this it feels like is hope and faith is also a very

powerful drug and sometimes like like I said with my mom or me believing in Santa like there's no logic in that but um you know entire wars and nations are fought over faith and you know and uh i i feel like because i'm sensitive and i'm empathetic to everybody that i meet that it feels like a really hopeless time and i feel like that's why there's a lot of self-harm and depression and um so it's like weird it's like how would you be hopeful in a city like L.A. where there's like 70,000 homeless people, like natural disasters, drug epidemics, you know, just all this shit. And it's like, then to, you know, to brainwash yourself. Like if, because it's that, that's what the connection is like, if I don't believe it,

to find, to go out there and meet someone in real life and say, hey, I'm having, it was like the hardest thing to do it. It's like, I need help right now. I can't. It's like weird to admit to someone that I can't do like, I can't, I can't even come up with one nice thing to say about myself. Can you say something nice about me? That sounds very egotistic, but I need that right now. I really don't like myself right now. And to have someone say something nice and you go, okay, maybe tomorrow I'll be able to say something nice about myself. And then you're building something called hope and faith.

And so I don't know. I told a long Pee We Herman story, but at the end of that, I was like, what was that? It's like, okay, that's resilience, that's taking chance, that's believing in yourself. But I never gave up hope. You know, it's like, and it's just, and that's delusional in a way, but that's, like, how? like if you take facts and numbers and it's like this is the end of the world this is like me i's gonna kill like all this fucking doomsday post-apocalyptic it's like i don't need that shit dude i don't watch horror movies i don't surround myself with like that's fine like everyone do your own thing and like i said you know we were both like we like punk but we don't like hardcore like i used to love hardcore because it's i needed that i needed to hear that message

vibrationally and spiritually and sonically to go like oh that guy's singing at a frequency that's resonating with me it doesn't now and i fucking hated reggae my whole life because those people were happy and now i listen to reggae you know i go reggae on the river whatever you know like and i'm just like you know and i immediately judge i can't believe you're fucking listening to reggae this is like stoner music but it's the frequency is hitting me now so i can be appreciative of hardcore music But, yeah, if I look back and I go, what was that? What the fuck was that?

It was just screaming for help, lost, and hopeless. And I just go, hope is a hard thing to have in a time like this, but not if you ask for help, not if you reach out, not if you connect with other people. And that is going to be impossible to do if you don't. you need to you know now I sound like I'm gonna fucking know it all but it's like you need to deprive yourself

of electronics like it has to happen like you can't have real emotion if you're watching TV or your phone like it's the only way like anytime it's like a secret language anytime I'm out and someone has a clamshell phone or a flip phone a dumb phone whatever a brick phone they have whatever you call it

I give a wink yeah because I know I'm like this guy he cares about himself because you can't oh i got to fucking see like no you don't you don't need to know who's being murdered on every country and what are you going to do about it nothing so i believe i have faith that we're all here for a reason and and uh and to anyone listening and i don't know when this is coming out and i didn't know i honestly didn't know i was going to publicly come out about my belief in Santa Claus, but it is the season. Is this going to come out soon or after Christmas?

Okay. Just try it on. Just like, I know it's stupid, but just believe in Santa. Like, all the, I know kids already do, but any grown-ups, bitter jaded adults listening, just try it on this year. And if you need, you know, he can teleport. He's a mutant.

He has special abilities. And he knows if you've been naughty or nice. So, yeah. I don't know. we could I could like this is the problem because where we're at now is when I would start like this was like the pre like when I used to do my podcast DVD I say we this be like oh it wasn't a podcast because it wasn't a conversation it was you talking the whole time and we're three hours in and and be like okay now let's now let's start let's get ugly and real and

you're like nobody likes to talk for nine hours dude I'm like I do so I'm gonna I feel like you'd be down if we wanted to go six more hours. Easy. And we could maybe do that one day. You should. But I feel like, I don't know, am I, am I, you know what? I'm surrendering. I feel like, unless you have more shit to ask me, then I'm down.

Oh man, I've, uh, in the, uh, language of, uh, meetings and other things, I, I think, uh, for now. Yeah. We're complete. Thank you so much, man. Thank you. Thank you. That was so, I mean, I, I feel good. I feel good, too.

Very grateful. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with David Cho. To learn more about him and his work, please see the links in the show note captions. If you're learning from and or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific zero cost way to support us. In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple.

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