Hyperfixed - Presenting: The Dream - Babies Not Having Babies

Episode Date: July 3, 2025

This week, we're running an episode of one of our favorite shows, The Dream, hosted by Jane Marie. At the top of this episode I talk to Jane Marie about her show, and the fact that we went to the same high school and didn't know each other (true story!) THIS EPISODE:This past year Charlotte Isenberg, a once-popular teen anti-abortion activist, found herself switching sides in this national debate. What happened to her next is unprecedented and a warning for parents and kids alike.Find Charlotte on Tik Tok here:LINKS:Follow Charlotte on TikTok HereListen to The DreamiTunesSpotifyPocketCastsFollow Jane Marie on:InstagramBlueSkyTikTok Learn about your ad choices: dovetail.prx.org/ad-choices

Add a little curiosity into your routine with TED Talks Daily, the podcast that brings you a new TED Talk every weekday. In less than 15 minutes a day, you'll go beyond the headlines and learn about the big ideas shaping your future. Coming up, how AI will change the way we communicate, how to be a better leader, and more. wherever you get your podcast. Hi. How's everyone? Hi. I'm doing really weird. Okay. Is that an answer you get often? No. That's an answer I never get.

I usually get good or I usually get, well, here's my problem. Oh, I'm just doing weird. I moved a couple days ago, so I'm in the middle of a move still. I have a broken foot. Are you able to move your, are you able to unpack at all or are you just like totally laid up? No. I'm laid up, and so I know that I just need to stay sitting down. It's very hard for me to be like forcibly,

like chilled, you know, forcibly relaxed. Yeah, you must be losing your mind. I am, I am. I'm having, like, I'm sleeping at odd hours, I'm having nightmares all over the place. My house is just full of boxes. I... You are doing weird. I'm having nightmares all over the place, my house is just full of boxes. I- You are doing weird.

I'm doing real weird. I'm doing really weird. And, no, the weirdest part is the house that I live in now was my very first apartment in Los Angeles when I moved here in 2011 from New York City. Literally the exact same- Bizarre. How did you end up even looking at it? It was on like Trulia or Zillow or one of those apps.

And I was like scrolling through. I had to make a really quick move. And I saw it and I was like, oh, that's my house. Oh, wait, that's my house. Like, oh, hi. Hi. You're my friend. Yeah, you're my friend.

To our audience, we talk all the time on the phone. And we don't record those phone calls. Oh, another important note for our audience... Yes? ...is little known fun radio fact is that Jane and I went to the same high school a year apart but did not know each other, but can reference... Everything.

Everything. We know all the same people. It was a dinky high school, too. Just for context, it was like 400 students. So the fact that we didn't know each other is absolutely insane. Weird, very weird. Especially since I was like super annoying and never in class. Like I figure you would have at least remembered me

as like the annoying guy. Well, I was with the smokers. And I was also hanging out with kids way older than me. And, um. That's true. Like you know my brother also hanging out with kids way older than me and That's true, like, you know, you know my brother but you who's five years older than oh god, but you didn't you didn't fucking guy I'm good. I mix him and up in my mind all the time. Okay. Well, that's that's messed up because **** was like a real piece of shit. I'm sorry. Okay, the reason that I have you here is because we are running an episode of The Dream on our show this week, and I just wanted you to be able to tell me what The Dream is? The Dream is a show that I produce and host about basically large-scale institutional

scammy type things. Stuff that's going on right under our noses that you kind of just accept as fact in the world like, oh, there's pyramid schemes that operate legally in the United States. Why? We don't know. Wellness. You know, you can just throw vitamins on the shelves at any drug store and not have them tested by anyone and not have regulations on what's actually in the bottles.

And sometimes people die, whoopsie daisy. And then that's when, you know, the feds step in and say, maybe we shouldn't be poisoning people with lead and all kinds of things. So that's kind of what we look at. We looked at multi-level marketing for the first season. The second season was about wellness. The third season was about life coaches, which is another word for unlicensed therapists. And recently we've switched to a more weekly kind of episodic format where we just have

different guests on every week. Can you tell me a little bit about the episode that we are running down the feed this week? I specifically requested we do this one because I just thought it was so intense. So what's this one about? This woman who faced dire consequences for considering having an abortion. And this is a story that I feel like a lot of news outlets have sort of missed is like, you know, we talk like, oh, women might be arrested or be punished or whatever for having abortions in the new post-Roe world.

And it's really happening. Like, people are getting jailed and hospitalized, which is basically what happened to Charlotte, who you'll hear from. Charlotte was like a teen anti-abortion activist, and then she changed her mind. And when she ran afoul of the group of people she was working with as an anti-abortion activist, they intruded upon her life in some of the most brazen and insane ways I've ever heard. Not only them, but the authorities in her area, she was taken into police custody for thinking about having an abortion.

How did it feel reporting it? What was it like talking to this woman who had dealt with this crazy experience? You know what was interesting is I was the first reporter she agreed to talk to. Wow. Yeah. What did you do to break through? Act like a normal person? I don't know. I found her, she made a video on TikTok of herself and her partner and this woman who had shown up at her consultation for an abortion in North Carolina at a Planned Parenthood.

And she just posted this video. And you could see that this woman was just in the waiting room with them, which is not legal, and was trying to convince her to leave the consultation. And I followed her and direct messaged her and said, what? How is this possible, first of all, like that your former pro-life activisty friends are walking into your doctor's appointments and harassing you in your doctor's office. And a couple days later, she wrote me back and said, I've gotten a lot of interest from the press around this, but I don't feel like I want to go on like CBS or ABC or whatever.

She didn't want to do that until I reached out and she said, I feel safe actually telling you my story. And I said, well, I hope I can do the story justice and that I treat you the way that you should be treated by the media and those around you. And also I understood like she had been victimized multiple times. You know, it wasn't just that these people showed up at her appointment. It wasn't just that she needed these healthcare services. It was piling on and I didn't wanna be one of those people. I wanted our audience to hear this story of,

it sounds like this hysteria around, oh, bad things are gonna happen to women now that Roe is overturned. And like, yeah, it is. These are not hypotheticals. This is really happening in real life. People are being detained and thrown into hospitals for thinking about having an abortion. So I think on that note, we should just let everybody listen to the episode. Where can people find your show and where can people find your show and where can they find you?

The Dream is on all of your podcast platforms. Um, and we have a number of seasons going back to 2018, I believe is when we first came out. And it's a bingeable listen, is what I've heard. People who are new to the show are, like, emailing me two weeks later like, ah, where's more show? I just found out about your show two weeks ago

and I'm already out of episodes. I can be found on all of social medias at C.Jane Marie, like S-E-E, like C.Jane Run, which people, I thought people knew what that was when I created that handle. And then I was, which people, I thought people knew what that was when I created that handle and then I was like, oh, I'm old. I got it right away, but I, again, we've already established we are similar ages. We are olds, but S-E-E-J-A-N-E-M-A-R-I-E on all of the socials.

All right. Please stay tuned for an episode of The Dream called Babies Not Having having babies and links to the dream and Jane Marie social media Will be in our show notes I'm Jane Marie and this is the dream Big trigger warning today. I'm not usually a fan of those but and this is gonna sound like one of those I didn't care until it happened to me kind of things But I was so upset by today's interview that the minute it was over, I ran to my car and sobbed. Yes, we all know I'm a crier, but this was different. So anyway, you're warned. You

might be upset after this. This past year, I was working on a podcast called Outlawed, which aimed to inform people about abortion so they could have better discussions about it. And one thing that came up a lot is the criminalization of pregnancy essentially, like a fear that abortion could lead to jail for the pregnant person or doctors, fear that miscarriage could be mistaken for abortion, and if abortion is illegal, that person could face charges, etc. A lot of these fears are hypothetical, but there have been some cases already where this sort of thing is happening. And this is one of them.

My name is Charlotte Eisenberg. I am from Western North Carolina. Right now I'm a university student at Appalachian State and I'm a political journalist. I write for Plug CLT, which is a Charlotte news source, and I do journalism, especially regarding reproductive rights issues in the area. And also I do some online advocacy and organizing and I'm the vice president of college Dems at our school. Cool. Wow, you're doing a lot of stuff. Yeah.

What are you studying? I am studying technical writing and rhetoric with a minor in political science. Can we start with where you grew up? Yeah, so I was born in Lincoln to North Carolina, which is a small town in western North Carolina. It is pretty much in the middle of nowhere. I grew up in Gastonia, which is right beside it. It's one of the most polluted cities in North Carolina. It's a leftover mill town and it's very, very poor.

I grew up in government housing in Gastonia. And my whole life, I, my childhood especially, I felt very much that I was raised more by my community and a series of babysitters and friends and friends' parents than I ever really was just by my mother, who was a single mom when I was a kid. I have four siblings. A single mom to five kids. Yeah, I'm the second youngest.

My mom has five children. And I grew up around so many people that were like loosely connected to each other, which I always kind of liked when I was a kid. Was that because she was working? My mom was working a lot, but also she, I think, did a lot of trying to find herself

when we were kids because she was in her 20s when I was a child. My mom had her first child when she was 15. So I recognize that she probably also wanted to live some of her own life outside of her five children, which I can't even imagine having three kids at my age like she did. So. Sure. So tell me about, you me about your teen years. What were those like?

Yeah. So when I was 11, I started being sexually abused by someone who was close to me. And I was raped repeatedly for four years throughout middle school and into my freshman year of high school. Mm-hmm. And when I was 15, in the fall of my freshman year of high school, I became pregnant from that sexual assault.

And I ended up miscarrying that pregnancy at about nine or ten weeks in my school bathroom. My school was really tiny. I ended up managing to go to a early college. It was a very small magnet program. So I went to the basement of my school during exams, during my math exam, and nobody was down there for hours at a time at our school. And I had a miscarriage and I didn't know what was happening to me.

I thought that I might die at any second. And it was kind of a wake-up call that I really needed to escape my abuse before it actually killed me. I'm really sorry that any of this happened to you. I just want you to know. Do you remember that day what you were thinking was happening? Did you know you were pregnant then? I thought that I was pregnant, but I wasn't sure.

I had regular periods at that point and I had missed it and I felt very sick, but my mom told me that it was just anxiety because obviously at that point I was having pretty regular anxiety attacks. And I just remember feeling very scared. And then when I started miscarrying, I started bleeding during my exam and I got up and I thought, well, you know, I've heard before that sometimes when you're pregnant, you bleed a little bit, but it just kept going and going. And I realized that I was probably having a miscarriage. So I just sat on the toilet and just like looked at my hands. They were covered in blood at that point.

And I saw like tissue come out and I really struggled with trying to figure out whether or not I should call anybody, but I decided not to because I was like, these people are going to have a lot of questions I'm not ready to answer right now. So I just sat in there for probably an hour and then I got up and I was still bleeding all over myself. And I went up to the front desk and the nurse was like, oh, you got, you know, your period, you need to go home on you and get like a change of clothes. And my mom came and picked me up and took me home. Did you tell your mom what was happening?

Did you tell your mom what was happening? No, because I... I was so scared that she would be mad at me. And I didn't know how to answer how I'd gotten pregnant. And I was so scared of what she would say because, you know, she got pregnant when she was 15 too, and she made it pretty clear that I should avoid being a teen mom. Charlotte and her family did try to bring a legal case against this person, but for all kinds of unfair reasons, nothing came of it, though he is a known quantity

in their community. I think I would just be putting myself through hell and reliving something just for them to give him six months probation, and I don't think that's worth it. Right, right, I think that that math you just did is like exactly what most women who have been assaulted do in their heads, you know? Yeah. Like how much more am I gonna suffer because of this person?

I started posting online pretty much immediately after I had my miscarriage in the police report about what had happened to me because I think like a lot of teen girls, especially who grew up with the internet, I was using Twitter kind of like a diary. I had like a hundred followers, you know, at that point, a couple hundred, and I was just like talking into the void. And there were people who were like, you know, what happened to you was horrible, and your story matters, and we care about you. And nobody in my life, no adult in my life at that point,

was telling me those things. And I just wanted to say anything that would bring me more of that, because I was beating myself up so much every day about... Sure. ...letting that happen to me, you know, which is obviously not true, but it's how it felt. And I was just desperate really for any semblance of comfort. I felt like a little kid all the time, just like begging to be believed and heard. And so you found that online through Twitter?

Yes. Did you know when these people were commenting on your posts online, like, who they were? Or did you just feel like you were reaching some, like, some new friends? I didn't have a grasp on the fact these people were religious and political extremists. I didn't really understand they were like internet strangers and especially because at that point, you know, like I said, I grew up with the internet. So the idea of talking to people on the internet who I didn't know wasn't really scary to me. It was just a way that people talk to each other sometimes. So I, I didn't really understand what I was

like getting myself into. I hear you. Yeah. But they were offering you some comfort, right? At the beginning. They were. And I think that like in retrospect, that's, you know, obviously how cults pull people in. They tell them that they're broken, but you know, we have something that can make you feel better, something that can fix you. And for me at that point, that thing was Jesus. And Jesus, according to these people, was anti-abortion. And so they were like, well, we need you to use your story and your grief. And particularly, I think a lot of these people projected onto me a lot of grief about my

miscarriage that was not organically there. Like grief about my miscarriage itself, absolutely, but grief about not being allowed to be a mother at that point. Mm-hmm. I think that they read a lot into that and kind of told me how to feel and then I decided that that's how I felt about it because that's what got a good reaction out of them. I gotcha. Mm-hmm. Okay, so I was raped for four years of my life, violently. More times than I can count. And I did get pregnant when I was 15.

My rapist threatened me with abortion multiple times. I did end up losing her, but I wanted her very badly. I named her Rahail, which is Rachel in English. And I think it's very important to... So, I was upset about bleeding out in my high school bathroom and feeling like I was about to die. I wasn't upset about not having a child by my rapist. Like when I think back to how I actually felt in that moment, that was not at all how I felt. But I was like, well, this is what these people got from this story. So yeah, like, okay, I'll talk about

how upset that made me. And somehow over the span of a couple years, that kept happening over and over, where I would talk about it, and it would get a good reaction from those people. And then I woke up one day, and I was an anti-abortion influencer. So for a few years there in her middle teens, Charlotte was recruited to appear in YouTube videos

and social media campaigns as a sort of anti-abortion poster child, despite never having had one. And you're like 16 at this point, yeah? Yes. Oh, my God. Do you remember what your, like any of your talking points from that time when you were making videos or just talking to people

in that community? Like, what was the story you were telling? Basically, I told the story of my rape, of my abuse, and then of my miscarriage, and, you know, about how badly I felt after having my miscarriage, and then attributing those feelings to me not having a child and grieving that loss. And I think that was a really,

that was kind of the angle that a lot of people pushed me into like that, oh, well you're already a mother and we recognize you as a mother. And it was a really big thing for people to like, wish me happy Mother's Day every spring. Yeah, like so many people would do it. And that was kind of how they portrayed me.

Like I'm this 16 year old girl who's never given birth and all of a sudden I'm the quintessential mother figure in this movement. It was the definition of absurd. Yeah. And then sometimes in interviews I was told to comment on that or to give that specific narrative and so I would because I was a 16 year old girl and the people who were talking to me about these things, who were interviewing me about these things, were all very much adults. And so I was like, well, yeah, you know, the best thing you can do after you get pregnant from rape

is to give birth because then you're not like continuing this cycle of violence. And that phrase is something that was handed to me. And I think that I did not believe that those two actions were at all equitable. I did not believe that rape two actions were at all equitable. I did not believe that rape and abortion were at all equitable. And I would pretty frequently argue with other anti-abortion people about saying that, but I couldn't get around having interviews and talking about what happened to me

without certain things being expected of me with certain narratives being expected of me But you're still kind of like a mouthpiece for the movement. Yeah at that point. I stopped working with like the quote-unquote Establishment anti-abortion movement and I'd made like a false distinction between that and This group that I was then working with which is called progressive anti-abortion uprising They okay claim to be this leftist anti-abortion organization. They talk about being against the death penalty and being against euthanasia and wanting to establish systems so that people don't have to, have to, quote unquote, choose abortion. And-

So they're also making a weird false equivalency between euthanasia and the death penalty? Yeah, like they group all these things under life ethic issues, so it makes it really hard to attack their stance on any individual one because they've grouped them all together. Like war, euthanasia, the death penalty, abortion, because they're like all these things threaten human life. And clearly some of these things are not like the others. When you get an abortion as a reaction to rape you're continuing the cycle of violence. So you were raped that was a violent experience happened to you that

wasn't your fault. You're hurt. You've been victimized. Why is it fair to further victimize someone else? Because you are hurt. someone else because you are hurt. So that's the progressive anti-abortion uprising? Yes. Organization? And they're still in existence, yes? Yes, they're still in existence. From what I understand, they're actually hurting pretty bad internally because people have

heard what I've been talking about, what I've been saying about them. But publicly, they're very much still going. So in the last year at my high school, I left progressive anti-abortion uprising quietly. I didn't say anything about it publicly, but I had gone to Washington, D.C. to stay at their activist apartment that all their activists live at, the ones that work for them, as opposed to their volunteers who don't get paid, which is what I was considered.

These are their paid lobbyists? They call them paid activists, but people who do protests and stuff, like Lauren Handy, Teresa Bikovinac, like they all live in the same area so they can all do like protests pretty regularly. Okay. And they're getting bankrolled by donors? Yes. So all these people, Teresa Bikovinac has like the board for progressive anti-abortion uprising and then they get directly paid by like really wealthy conservative anti-abortion donors. Wow.

Yeah, which I didn't again, I didn't know that at the time. Like that's who was bankrolling this because I thought it was like grassroots funded because that's what they told us. But it's like some creepy oligarchs. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's all old conservative white people. Yeah. So okay, so you didn't, you left quietly. Yeah, because that spring I went to DC for their week of action, which was supposed to be a week where we did like non-stop protests in DC. So, I flew up there, it's like a 30 minute flight from where I live to DC. And so I could do it relatively regularly with donor money.

So I went up there and I stayed at their apartment and they had this new girl come in who was asking really inappropriate questions about my abuse and about my pregnancy. And then she announced her own pregnancy and we were all like oh that's really cool you know like nice and then she started hitting on this guy that worked with our organization who was like 20 years older than her and like do what you're gonna do mama like okay but she was also

married yeah she was married and she was like 18 and just told us she was barely pregnant with her husband's baby and we were like okay and then she was married and she was like 18 and just told us she was barely pregnant with her husband's baby and we were like, okay. And then she was like joking about it and she called me a whore. And I was like, oh, oh, don't say that. I was so enraged, but I was trying really hard not to turn it into a bigger situation than it was. I've been caught a lot of names in my life. So I just quietly brought it to leadership. And you're not supposed to talk to other people

in the group about your issues. You're supposed to go directly to Teresa, the leader, and talk to her about it. So there can't be any opinion forming about how the organization is being run. I was like, hey, I'm having this disagreement. And I also had issues with how things were being done, like with protests and stuff. I had issues with how my Judaism was being used, like how I was being propped up as kind of

like the token Jew. I am Ayala. I'm 18 years old. I'm from Charlotte, North Carolina, and I am Ayala. I am 18 years old. I'm from Charlotte, North Carolina, and I am anti-abortion. One misconception that I deal with pretty frequently is that we're all Christian, white, old men, and as a Jewish woman, younger, I really want more voices like mine to be seen in the anti-abortion movement. So I brought up all these issues and they were like, oh, okay. And then they got back to me later and were like, hey, you're alienating this girl who just joined and we are going to kick you out if you don't basically have a struggle session with us and like get on a call

and let us berate you. What's a struggle? What's that? Another cult thing? I mean, it's the term that me and the other people who have left this group kind of assigned to these meetings, but basically in reference to what Mao's government did in communist China, where you would have like a meeting with people, your superiors, when you've done something wrong and they would like berate you for it publicly with people, your superiors, when you've done something wrong and they would berate you for it publicly with your higher ups so that you would

go back into submission. Yeah, yeah. And I was like, fuck you, I didn't do anything wrong. So after that spring and all that had happened, I left. I was completely separated from that group. And again, like I didn't do it publicly because I thought that it was dangerous for me to voice the opinions

that I was starting to have publicly because of like the platform that I had and just how many people knew me. But at that point I was like, I can't work with any of these organizations anymore. Dangerous like someone was gonna be like, confront you't work with any of these organizations anymore. LESLIE KENDRICK-KLEIN Dangerous like someone was going to be like, confront you about it or dangerous how? KELSEY HALLIGAN I had a lot of harassment, a lot of hate, and

a lot of scary messages that I got. I was like 16 or 17 when I left formally. And I had a lot of people harassing me and threatening to dox me. And then finally someone did dox me and like threatened my family for being Jewish. Like it was all centered around my Judaism. They're basically like their point was that I was subversive to Catholicism. I was always going to leave and that I would keep moving further left because it was in my nature as a Jewish person to subvert the church. Yeah.

So they were all like saying the most horrific anti-Semitic things, and I was like, look, if I come out as getting myself away from the entire anti-abortion movement, these people are going to come back with that twice as hard. And I don't know how I'm going to deal with that. And obviously, considering the events that would happen almost a year later, I was completely correct in that assumption. Yeah. Well, tell us what happened.

So basically, when I got together with my now boyfriend, it was almost exactly a year ago that I started working at this brewery with him in my hometown. I was going to community college online and applying to universities, getting ready to transfer my credits so I could be the first person in my family to go to university. I was very excited. So basically just getting all my ducks in a row for a year. As I was working at this brewery, I was really struggling with feeling like I had taken a

massive step back in life. I'd had this whole life planned for myself and then I just kind of threw it out the window and feeling like I've massively screwed up. So I started drinking a lot and it became more and more of a problem until finally that spring when I was 20, I realized that I had a serious problem. I was drinking all the time and I was massively depressed and I was so anxious. I was having constant panic attacks. Which is what drinking will do.

Yeah. Drinking, turns out, is your body doesn't like it when you poison it. So I was basically just laying in my room when I wasn't at work, just drinking and listening to sad music and crying. And my boyfriend was like, this is not good. And he ended up leaving that brewery to go work at a rehab facility for teenage boys. And it was owned by a company that also ran a rehab facility

for young women a couple hours away. And he was like, hey, I've heard about this place that my company owns. I really like the facility that I work at. I think you should go to this place. And I think it might be a good view. He was honestly an angel. Like, in retrospect, I do not know how he was able to, like,

dealing with his own issues at the same time, like, you know, go with me through this. So I went to rehab for a month, and I was able to completely unpack my abuse when I was a teenager, and especially all the things that had happened to me in the anti-abortion movement. And my therapist was able to articulate to me for the first time, like, that I had been exploited and abused by those adults, and that's why I was so angry. It wasn't just because all these, like, interpersonal falling outs that I had been exploited and abused by those adults. And that's why I was so angry.

It wasn't just because all these interpersonal falling outs that I'd have with these people, but I was so angry because they'd abused me and I could sense that. Mm-hmm. And I was like, holy shit. So I started describing myself in rehab as pro-choice and talking to the girls around me. And I made many lifelong friends,

and I'm very grateful for rehab. And I left and I felt a lot better after that. So, do you move back home or with your boyfriend? Yeah, at that point, it was the end of May when I was released from rehab. So, I came back home and I went to stay at my boyfriend's house for a little bit. I had about two and a half months until I was supposed to move to the university that I had been accepted to. And I was really, really excited because I was worried that rehab was the university that I'd been accepted to. And I was really, really excited because I was worried that rehab was going to complicate me going to university. But everything was working out right on time.

Great. So I went to stay with my boyfriend, you know, just have a little summer vacation. And we had sex. And at the time, I didn't realize that the birth control I was taking and any birth control pill can be rendered ineffective by antibiotics. I was taking and any birth control pill can be rendered ineffective by antibiotics. I was taking antibiotics in rehab. I got like a UTI or something, I think, and nobody told me that it would make my birth

control ineffective because A, I was taking it for endometriosis. It wasn't just supposed to be a contraceptive. But B, I was in rehab, so I wasn't having sex with anyone. I don't think they thought that was like an important thing to note to me. Oh yeah, it's an all women's rehab. Yeah. So if they did think about that, they were like,

oh, well, she's here in this all women's rehab. So I left like right after that and the antibiotics probably hadn't even made it out of my system and I had sex immediately after and then I got pregnant. and I had sex immediately after, and then I got pregnant. And I remember I was sitting with my boyfriend one night, like a week after I'd left rehab, like the last week of May, and he was sitting on the floor, and he was holding me in his lap,

and I was looking at the wall, and I started crying. And he asked me what was wrong and I told him I couldn't say it because I was too scared and he couldn't look at me either because I think he was just as scared as I was and he was like, you think you're pregnant? And I was like, yeah. So he was like, well, don't worry about it.

We're just gonna figure it out. We're gonna find out whether or not you are, and then we'll take it from there. Yeah. And he was really, really calm for someone that I'm sure was absolutely terrified. Yeah. So I scheduled a gynecologist appointment,

and I got a blood test, and I was very much in early pregnancy. It felt like absolute hell. I was sick very badly all the time. My legs hurt. But also you're reliving a trauma. So yeah. Yeah.

So we were really struggling to figure out what to do. And I ended up calling after my second gynecologist visit when I cried to her and I was like, I love my boyfriend. I want to be a mom so bad, but I don't think I can be pregnant right now. And I'm considering the other option. And she was like, okay, well, this is the closest facility. And I called them and my boyfriend overheard the phone conversation.

I was initially like, I'm just going to deal with this on my own because this is going to be so hard and I don't want to subject him to it. But he overheard it and was like, I'm just going to deal with this on my own because this is going to be so hard and I don't want to subject him to it, but you overheard it and was like, why won't you just tell me what's going through your head and what you're thinking of and I just need you to do this together with me. I can relate to this so hard, just like not allowing people to take care of me because I wasn't conditioned as a kid to expect that. Yeah. Like, that's weird. Nobody had ever taken care expect that. Yeah, like that's weird.

Nobody had ever taken care of me. Yeah, it feels weird when they're doing it. You're like, no, no, no, I'll do this myself. Like when I eventually got pregnant on purpose to have my daughter, I did most of it myself. Like I did the pregnancy test alone, you know, like all of that stuff, because I was like, I don't really want someone that close.

Exactly. But he swooped in and said, no, I'm gonna take care of you. Yeah, he was like, I don't really want someone that close. Exactly. But he swooped in and said, no, I'm gonna take care of you. Yeah, he was like, I'm gonna take care of you. And also I need you to be honest with me through this whole thing. You don't have to have an abortion and I really want you to understand

that I'm not ever going to pressure you into having an abortion. Like if you want to have a baby with me right now, I'll find a way to make it happen. And I was so scared, but I trusted him so much, and I knew that he trusted me. So I made this appointment to have a consultation, and I was like, look, I'm gonna go in there,

I have to have an ultrasound, and then I have to wait three days, so I have like built-in time to talk this over with you. Because that's the law at that point, right? They changed the law that year, correct? Yeah, so in North Carolina, we have a 12 week abortion ban and also you have to have an ultrasound and you have to be given the opportunity to see

and hear the ultrasound. And they have to ask you a bunch of questions about like if you want to know if it's twins and stuff, which I found out about that the hard way. It was really weird. Um, Wait, that it was twins or that you had to have that done? They have to ask. Yeah.

Did it, did it remind you at all of like the anti-abortion people? Did you hear the talking points coming through the checklist they have to go through? Absolutely. And I already had kind of intellectually worked through how absurd those things were, like in my almost a year of time that I had between myself and that movement. But it gave me an experience of just how bizarre their talking points are in action, because I had already completely made up my mind to have an abortion for reasons that were totally separate from whether or not there were two fetuses as opposed to one.

So like, you're just inconveniencing me and everyone else for no fucking reason. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, it's lawmakers wanting to control you, not doctors doing their jobs, right? They're being forced to do the work of those same people that are giving money to the anti-vortion organizations. Exactly. Yeah. Okay, so you go through that whole process and you're hours away from home and you have to stay for three days, correct? My appointment was only 45 minutes from where I live. I was really, really lucky because I live just a little

ways outside of Charlotte. I was very worried that I would end up going over the 12 week limit and having to go to Virginia, and that would have been a reality for me then at that point. Yeah. As I was waiting for my appointment, I started thinking about having a plan in case

I end up not wanting to have an abortion. Because at this point, my boyfriend and I were still trying to talk through a lot of things. Plus they're getting in your head. Yeah, yeah. It's working. Years of programming is going to, you know, try and scrape away at any sort of, you know, autonomous decision that you want to make like that. So I had this voice in the back of my head that was like, Oh, are you sure? Because what if it's really as bad as they say it was?

And what if, you know, you try to have an abortion and you die or you become infertile or all these other things that, you know, are pretty bullshit, but it just been like hammered into me at that point. So I was like, okay, like I should have a plan in case for whatever reason I end up not wanting to do this. And so I reached out to Kristen Turner, who worked with me at Progressive Anti-Abortion Uprising. I hadn't talked to her in over a year, but she was the person I was closest with.

She was also the person who's probably closest to my age. She's just, like, two or three years older than me. And I was like, this is the only person that I can think who would keep this on the DL, but who can also get me into contact with anti-abortion resources that might not even be available to the average person. Because I mean, I was very aware of the fact

that these people did not want me to have an abortion, not just because of their ideology, but also because it would look really fucking bad for them if I had an abortion and that came out somehow. So I reached out to her and I was like, hey, I have an abortion appointment scheduled. I'm only telling you that because I know that a lot of these organizations won't help you unless you have an abortion appointment, which not a lot of people know. Okay. But you can't just be a pregnant person

and contact a lot of these organizations and get help. Like you actually have to have scheduled an abortion appointment so they can be saving a baby, quote unquote, from an abortion. It's really absurd and gross. And then what's the help? I wasn't actually entirely sure. I had heard a lot of different things

from a lot of different people. And Kristen reached out and she was like, yeah, absolutely. I'll connect you with Let Them Live, which is, I'm almost certain, the largest anti-abortion charity organization. And I use that term very loosely, but it's the only thing I can think to describe them. They claim to do things like pay people's rent, buy them childcare services, help them facilitate adoptions, like more tangible things. than I think a lot

of standalone crisis pregnancy centers because Let Them Live is better funded. Sure, I mean, it's like Catholic charities, right? Exactly. Okay, so she gets you in touch with these people or just she gets in touch with them herself? They went straight to the leader of this organization and were like, hey, this is Charlotte Ayala Eisenberg,

like you need to make sure she doesn't have a fucking abortion. Sure. But also she could also be reborn as our poster girl again. Exactly. That part wasn't even a covert thing. That was explicitly said to me as a reason I shouldn't have an abortion is because they could make me a poster child if I didn't have one. And she was like, hey, we want you to go to this crisis pregnancy center near you so that you can have an ultrasound because we can only.

Wait, wait, wait. That's another thing I don't think everybody knows about. The crisis pregnancy centers are basically centers that oftentimes will pose as possibly abortion providers. They use very misleading language on their websites and on their signage to imply that they might provide reproductive care. But in actuality, they are usually not medical facilities. They usually do not have actual practitioners where they claim to give things like ultrasounds.

They'll have like a nurse practitioner come in sometimes, but. I've heard that they dress up, right? Like a lot of times it's just a lay person who dresses in a lab coat. Exactly. They'll have people who are... Or scrubs. Essentially, yeah, they're like lifelong church workers. They're like secretaries, but they'll wear scrubs and they'll perform ultrasounds and pretend to be nurses.

And as long as they never tell people that they are a nurse, like no one ever asks, everyone just assumes. This is so creepy. Ugh. Isn't it? It's so nasty. Oh my god. And none of these people are doctors.

Absolutely. And that's actually what I brought up to her. I was like, so I'm having an ultrasound at Planned Parenthood during my appointment, and nothing else is happening. They're just giving me an ultrasound and talking to me about my options. So can I just send you the ultrasound that I get at Planned Parenthood?" And she was like,

no. And I was like, well, I'm already paying like 200 something dollars, like the last of my savings account to have this abortion. Can you just use this one? And she was like, oh, well, this one's completely free. And then I was like, is this place even a medical facility? So I looked up and they're not. They're not a medical facility. So I looked up and they're not. They're not a medical facility. Like I asked, I called them. Wait, wait, wait. That's another thing I don't think everybody knows about. The crisis pregnancy centers are basically centers

that oftentimes will pose as possibly abortion providers. They use very misleading language on their websites and on their signage to imply that they might provide reproductive care. But in actuality, they are usually not medical facilities. They usually do not have actual practitioners where they claim to give things like ultrasounds. They'll have like a nurse practitioner come in sometimes, but... I've heard that they dress up, right?

Like a lot of times it's just a lay person who dresses in a lab coat. Exactly. They'll have people who are essentially, yeah, they're like, you know, lifelong church workers. They're like secretaries, but they'll wear scrubs and they'll perform ultrasounds and pretend to be nurses. And as long as they never tell people that they are a nurse, like no one ever asks. Everyone just assumes. So they will give you like an ultrasound and then they'll lie to you about abortion. They'll tell you that it'll make you infertile. That's something that I was told over and over again.

And then they'll like say, you know, instead of having an abortion, we can give you baby diapers and formula for a year. And you're like, oh, well, thanks. That totally fixes. Yeah, like now I'm not worried about paying rent. Now I wasn't raped. Now I wasn't raped. Yeah, like now I'm not worried about paying rent. Now I wasn't raped. Now I wasn't raped.

Yeah, like everything's good. Oh my God. And I was like, I'm not having some street preacher look at my insides and lie to me about what's on the screen because they don't even know they're not an ultrasound technician. And be like, oh, you're 50 weeks pregnant with three babies. Like, man, fuck you. So, and they start like, you know, beating on the table and they're like, that's the heartbeat. That's the heartbeat.

It was like, I'm not putting myself through that. So I told her like, hey, I don't want to go to this. She's like, well, we already scheduled an appointment for you on Wednesday. Can you go to it? And I was like, I don't, we'll see. And then Wednesday morning, Kristen Turner texts me and tries to bribe me with a door dash of breakfast so that I would go. At this point, I was really struggling to afford a lot of stuff because I,

like I said, I didn't have a job. I was using the last of my money to go towards this. And she's like, do you want a bagel? Yeah, she was like, I can literally send you McDonald's. And at that point, like genuinely for someone who's in the kind of financial situation that I was in, I was like, that's really tempting. And she was like, I'll get you an Uber.

You just got to get in the Uber and you can have your breakfast on the way and they'll talk to you. And this is the only time that I was ever offered a meal is when they were trying to use it to get me to go To this crisis pregnancy center appointment they made for me So did you go? I did not go at that point. I was so enraged that they were trying to obviously Date me with food that I needed to write

So I was like fuck you I'm gonna go find some instant oatmeal in the back of my cabinet like I'm I'm not gonna be manipulated fuck you, I'm gonna go find some instant oatmeal on the back of my cabinet. Like I'm not gonna be manipulated. What were you hoping Kristen was gonna say? Like what was the dream scenario and how reasonable was it, you know? I was really hoping she'd be like, because she had her own issues that she'd vocalized

with me about progressive anti-abortion uprising. And unbeknownst to me, actually at this point, she had more or less separated herself from progressive anti-abortion uprising because of the fucked up way that they operate. And like had moved out of their house into like a Catholic worker's house. So I was like, maybe she'll just be like,

here's this charity that can connect you with resources. Here's some stuff in your area, like I already reached out to them for you, and then kind of more or less leaving me alone. I didn't expect her to completely be like, okay, bye, because that was very unrealistic, but I expected her to just give me actual resources and to also be understanding about it,

because like I said, we're about the same age and pretty similar cultural understanding. You thought you were calling a like-minded person mostly like-minded and that you had this one difference, but that you could count on her. Yeah. Yeah. In no way did I think that she would even consider doing what she actually ended up doing.

So what happened? So as I stopped being responsive after the whole thing with the crisis pregnancy center, because that scared me, I had Teresa Bikovinac, who again is like, she runs progressive anti-abortion uprising. She's like the founder and director of it. She's also a very grown woman in her late thirties. She was calling me and she was like, hey, we're all going to be in DC for Dobbs Day, which is the day that Roe V. Wade was overturn overturned and the anti-abortion movement kind of uses it like a Met Gala It's so disgusting they get dressed up. They have like parties. Yeah, they have parties. They have like a ball. Okay So she was like we're all gonna be in DC and you can just fly up here and you don't even have to tell your

Boyfriend or your family where you're going and we'll pay for your plane ticket and we'll pay for your meals and you can just come in here for a few weeks and you know you'll stay at our house and we'll go to the lake. And I was like this is starting to sound like those like you used to hear about those places where families would send pregnant girls a couple decades ago, like in Ireland and even in the United States. We had one in my hometown. Pregnant women were just, yeah.

Where they were just kind of kept like cattle while they're pregnant to stop them from doing anything else. Right. So I was like, this is actually terrifying, especially on how they were pushing really hard to get me away from my family and the place that I'm from and telling me not to tell anyone where I was going. So I was like, and I stopped responding to them. Like I would

still answer the text messages but I was like, okay, yeah, okay. Kristin and I actually ghosted like several times. Like you can see in our text history there's stuff that I just didn't answer. Like she asked to talk to my boyfriend on the phone and I was like, I'm not responding to you. My boyfriend was like increasingly uncomfortable, obviously with the situation. I told him what these women were saying and trying to get me to leave and he was like, I don't think that these people are going to help you. And at this point I was like, yeah, like I just hope that they'll sort of leave me alone

if I ignore them enough. You don't have time to think about this. Like you don't have time to process any of this. You're on a deadline. Yeah, like not at all. I had like two or three weeks from the time that I made the appointment until going to it and they were, I mean in North Carolina we have all these like pregnant people coming from all these states around us as well as the burden of you know there's only so many clinics in our state to handle the people from here. So there's no space for me to reschedule this appointment or anything. It's really like do or die.

So I'm getting all this fucking information at once and then there's very much the emphasis, like this has to happen now, you have to decide right now. And it was overwhelming. So I just sort of like checked out. Do you think that's part of the plan? This has never occurred to me before. Absolutely, absolutely. I think that all the regulations, I think that all the hoops you have to jump through and I think that even when they do what they call sidewalk counseling, just standing outside, it's all meant to put you in this pressure cooker where you feel like you have to make a very, very, very serious choice right now and it costs so much money and it's so scary because they've hyped it up to be

this terrifying thing. And they're hoping that you just stay home. And that's a much easier ask than going through with it. Right. So what did you decide to do? I was like, I made this appointment. I think that logically this is the best thing to do for not only me and my boyfriend and my family, but also for what would end up being like this future person. Like they would be really disadvantaged to be brought into a situation like this. So we went to my appointment and me and my boyfriend were both like, I don't have to make a choice right now today.

And on the morning of my appointment, I woke up at like 630, and I couldn't go back to sleep. And my boyfriend was already awake. He had the same issue. And I was like, I'm so scared that they told someone, and somebody's going to be at that clinic waiting for me. And he was like, let's not worry about that. They have people there to take care of you.

They have security guards, like, I'm not gonna let anything happen to you. And so I was like, okay, I'm just gonna go and we'll see what ends up happening. We leave like two hours before we need to because we're both just so fucking ramped up. And as we start this like 45 minute drive, I'm getting texts from random anti-abortion leaders

that had met me maybe once ever and who were so high profile, importantly texting and calling me on like their main Instagram accounts and from their phone numbers to be like, hey, you don't have to go through this. And I was like, what the fuck? Cause I didn't tell any of these people about my abortion.

I didn't tell- But Kristen knew which day it would be if you were gonna do it or someone knew? Yeah. Yeah. She was asking around that sort of thing. It never occurred to me that she would do anything to like actually-

So she was gathering intel. Yeah. She didn't remember what city I was from. She actually told me that she wanted to send me a care package and asked for my address. And I gave her my address and that's how she figured out what abortion clinic I was going to because there's only one Planned Parenthood anywhere around my city. Yeah. Oh my god. Oh my god. So she was like, we have to know like what day it is for this, that, and the other. So it got out there by that avenue, it sounds like.

Yeah. And you're getting all these calls in the car, which is creepy. Yeah, I got like a text from Jessica Newell, who's a national anti-abortion activist, and she was like, "'You don't have to go through with this, Queen. "'Like, you're so strong.'"

And I was like, "'Oh my fucking God, did Kristen Turner seriously tell you?' And she was like, "'She just wanted me to know because I'm in the area and maybe I can help and like, there's no need to be embarrassed. And I was like, I'm not fucking embarrassed. Like she's just making my life way harder than it needs to be right now. And this is none of your business.

Yup. And this is like none of your fucking business. Like girl, oh my God, I'm not embarrassed. You're just literally your nose is in my ass right now. You need to leave. Randall Terry also was calling me. And for those unfamiliar, Randall Terry is this ancient, decrepit old man who,

he basically founded the modern anti-abortion movement, which a lot of anti-abortion organizations don't like to acknowledge because he's such a horrible person and it's like universally understood. He founded like the rescue movement, which is where people invade clinics, like they go in in groups and harass the patients about their abortions and then also like physically handcuffing themselves to doors and assaulting nurses. Like it got very physically violent.

And it was such a massive national issue that the Clinton administration passed the FACE Act to make it a federal crime to perform a quote unquote rescue at an abortion provider. But those are the people that abortion providers are scared of, you know, for with good reason. Yeah. Yes, because they have killed abortion providers. Right. Right. Exactly. And Randall Terry is notorious for not only being like a Christian far-right extremist,

but also for having basically endorsed the murder of an abortion provider. Today, outside the church where Dr. George Tiller was murdered, a doctor specializing in women's health who also provided abortions, who for 36 years weathered massive protests, bombs at his clinic, and gunshot wounds. But he defiantly held his ground. What I am doing is legal, what I'm doing is moral, what I'm doing is ethical, and you're not going to run me out of town. Anti-abortion group Operation Rescue was condemning the killing,

but its founder says Tiller reaped what he sold. George Tiller was a mass murderer. He killed tens of thousands of innocent human beings at his own hand. And horrifically, he reaped what he sowed. They want us to let them continue their grisly trade. And we're not going to. Roe versus Wade will be on the ash heap of history.

And men like George Tiller will be remembered as one of the villains of history. Yeah, he's just a bad person. He's exactly the guy you wanna get a call from on the way to your abortion. Oh yeah, like, I can think of no one better. So I get a call from him and I'm like, I'll answer the phone.

So I pick it up and as soon as I do, Randall's like, don't go through with it sweetie, I'll adopt your baby sweetheart honey honey. It's gonna be okay." And I was like, Randall, I'm gonna have an abortion. Like, you guys need to fucking stop. And he was like, well, do you want to be a murderer?

Because it sounds like you want to be a murderer. And I was like, fuck you. I don't know. Good, because ugh. So it was all these people blowing my phone up. I just sort of turned my phone off, and me and my boyfriend on the drive were holding hands and listening to magnetic fields and talking about how, you know, we're going to get through

this together. And he was like, I'm going to keep you safe. I'm going to love you through this. Like, it's going to be okay. And I will never forget how gentle he was able to be with me, even while he was very physically obviously enraged that I was being treated like that. And so we got to the clinic and as we were pulling in, I felt really safe because the Planned Parenthood near me is this huge building, it's got these huge fences with blackout curtains over them.

And there's cameras everywhere. I was like, oh, I feel really, really safe right now. Like these people aren't gonna let anything happen to me. And as soon as that thought processes, I looked to my side, and I saw Kristen fucking Turner standing in the driveway, looking back at our car that I just pulled in. And I almost threw up. Like, I screamed, and my boyfriend freaked out

and was like, what? Did I almost hit someone? Like, what's going on? And I was like, I think I just saw Kristen Turner. And I might be hallucinating because I'm just scared out of my mind. but I'm almost certain. And so we were talking through like, okay, what do we do right now? He's like, we can just go home.

And I was like, no, if we go home right now, we might not be able to reschedule until after 12 weeks. You know, because we've already waited two or three weeks. Then you're talking about going to a different state. Yeah. We knew it was now or never because I had just enough money to pay for exactly what I needed at this clinic. And importantly, I didn't have enough money for an in-clinic procedure, let alone to pay

for gas to travel to Virginia and all that stuff. Right. So you had to do a medical medication abortion? Yeah, that's what I was looking at. Because I knew also the price with that can fluctuate a lot more than with an in-clinic procedure, which is going to be over like 500 bucks. Right, right.

And also, of course, my insurance doesn't fucking cover an abortion. Right, right, yeah. So I go in and I get signed in and I fork over like $230 for this ultrasound and stuff, which is physically painful. Can we clarify? I don't think people understand

how an ultrasound can be painful, but they a lot of times do an internal ultrasound. Yeah. And if you have endometriosis and you're pregnant, that is no bueno. That sure hurts. Yeah, yeah. And we sit down.

Mm-hmm. Me and my boyfriend are sitting there talking about what to do. And then Kristen Turner starts texting me. And she's like, hey, am I at the right clinic, LOL? Like, I think I saw you, but I'm not sure. And I was like, what the fuck is wrong? You're like, I didn't invite you here. Yeah, yeah.

So actually, I can read these text messages in real time. So she texted me. And I was just so in shock, and I didn't even know what to say to her. So she was like, did you see me? And I was like, you looked right at us. And she was like, just come give me a hug, man. I miss you. I honestly couldn't see you the the fence blocks faces it's almost like that's what it's designed to do and I said I'm just going to get my ultrasound done I'm not even here for an abortion procedure today and importantly like nobody at that facility was there to have an abortion that day because they don't have an abortion provider at that facility on the day that I went and they told me that. So, and I could also overhear at the counter what people were there for and it was all like birth control, implant insertions and pills and you know, like nobody was there for anything even remotely

close to an abortion procedure. So what happened afterwards was just so incredibly melodramatic. Yeah. I was like, I'm going to get my ultrasound done. I'll be out in a bit. And then she said, can I come with you? I said, I don't think that's a good idea. And she said, Teresa wanted me to tell you she's sorry about Randall. I didn't tell him and I didn't know he called you at all.

I'm sure. Then she said, Charlotte, I'm going to come in there if you don't come out. I can't stand by and let you get hurt. We have a sonographer waiting for you at the pregnancy center. If you want to get an ultrasound and hear your options, just come say hi. We spent all day yesterday driving here and my heart is breaking for you. I just want to see you. I'm not doing this to be a dick.

I'm doing this because you're family and I don't care what it takes. I need to make sure you're safe. Oh my God. Yikes. It's very stalker behavior. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

I'm thinking like, this person has not talked to me in over a year and I just responded I'm definitely safe and I'm getting an ultrasound I will be out in a bit and then I turned to my boyfriend and I'm like man what if she comes in here I'm freaking out and you know he's holding my hand and he's like she can't get in here they have a buzzer system they have like this huge prison door that they have like 20 locks on. Like she can't just walk in.

And then I turn and she's walking in. She told me later that she had gone up to the counter and said that she was there to support a friend and told them my name. And I guess that they were like, Oh, she can't be a protester because she knows the first and last name of the person she's looking for. Oh my god. And like, granted, that's really dumb. But the people that they're used to being protesters there, I know are like love life

people. They're people who are just standing outside with pamphlets and trying in vain to hand them to people in the cars going in. Like, they don't know anybody's first or last name. So I guess they were like, you know, okay, if she knows this information. She must be a friend, yeah. Plus also she was intentionally dressed like really alternatively.

So they were like, oh, she doesn't look like an anti-abortion protester. Okay, she's progressive. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, I can totally see why they let her in. I am a little upset that they did because at the end of the day, that's not best practice but like I'm not mad at anyone.

Well also it's a federal crime. And then part of me was like maybe this is like God is punishing me for being an anti-abortion activist and this is like my atonement. And I was very much thinking of that at that moment. And like I don't think that that's true, but it did give me a lot of perspective that I will not soon forget. She sits across from us, and she starts talking to us. At this point, Charlotte began filming.

I just want to share with you all this pretty emotional picture for me that I took inside the clinic on the day of my consultation. This is me holding hands with my boyfriend. That's him. And this is Kristen Turner. This is while she was asking us super invasive questions, asking my boyfriend if he's ever been a father before,

asking me about my previous pregnancies, and asking us if we thought of any names. Ugh, we're just looking at each other, like what the fuck is going on? Then she's like talking directly to my boyfriend because she knows she can't get an answer out of me, and she's like, can you just step outside for a minute and talk to me?

And he's like, I don't have anything that I need to discuss with you. And she looks really taken to me and he's like, I don't have anything that I need to discuss with you. And she looks really taken aback and she's like, well, I think there's clearly a lot to discuss. And he leans in and he's like, not with you. And he was my hero in that moment. It's like, you know, I've been a very assertive, loud, frankly, like I've been called a bitchy woman my whole life. And it was so mortifying that in this moment I was frozen and I just could not do anything but stare. So I basically was like, Kristen, please stop. We're not coming outside. We

don't want to talk to you. And after what feels like an hour, they finally call me back. And I felt bad for leaving my boyfriend there, but I really didn't want to give Kristen the impression that she could follow us back. Because if I had to tell her to stay there, I was afraid it would create like an altercation. The whole time, I didn't just go up to the front desk to tell anyone that she was a protester,

because I was terrified that she'd be like, well, she is an anti-abortion protester too. And there would be a whole thing and the police would show up. And like, I just need my phone to call her sound. Oh, I see. Because like, Like actually it's a team of you in there that are anti-abortion.

Yeah, like it didn't escape me that any of those clinic workers could have recognized me. And actually when I went up to the desk, the man who was checking me in was like, oh, I've seen you somewhere before. Hang on, let me place you. And I promise you, I almost pissed myself. I was so scared.

There were tears in my eyes. And he was like, you look just like Mila Kunis. I was like, no. You're like, whew, dodged a bullet. I get that a lot. So I was already like about to throw up. I was so scared. And I was like, I just don't want her to find some way.

So he stayed out there to block her? Yeah. I basically told him to stay there to block her. And I think he understood that. It's like I left them together. And as soon as I got up, she sat beside him. And my boyfriend, God bless him, had to endure her asking questions like, have you ever been a father before? Like, do you want to have a baby with Charlotte? You know,

do you want to marry her? Like all these things. And the restraint that it must have taken him to keep answering these questions so she didn't redirect her attention to me. I'm so grateful for him. Mm-hmm. And I went back and they did the vaginal ultrasound. And then finally I came out and I've had some time to reflect with myself about the choice that I'm trying to make. Mm-hmm. And I come back and I'm like,

oh, we're still dealing with this. I forgot. For a moment, I lived in a sane world where I was like at a doctor's appointment. Right. I didn't even go to the counter to check back out because I didn't want to try and schedule another appointment for my abortion and have Kristen Turner get up and start screaming or something. Yeah. Yeah. Because at this point, I felt like I was handling an explosive.

So I grabbed my boyfriend and I just like dragged him out. And as we're walking out, we got outside the door and up to our car, and I turned around and she was gone. So we sat in the car for a minute, just kind of took a breath, and then as we were pulling out, turn to the car, and Kristen Turner appeared in front of it, like standing in front of the car so he couldn't drive off. She like gestures at him to roll the window down

and he does and he just like leans back while she talks past him to me. And she's like, I'm so sorry for showing up unexpectedly Teehee, I didn't mean to upset you. I know you guys are pretty upset. And I was like, thank you, you're so sweet and please. I love you. You know? Okay, sweet and please. Yeah, let us go. So she stepped back and then my boyfriend like peels off.

And after all that, I was like, take me home and I'm not leaving my room for three days. Yeah. Like I was so scared. I was so worried that someone had overheard our conversation. We got back and spent a couple hours decompressing. And then Kristen texted me a couple hours later, hey, we're still in your city. We want to know if we can just talk to you for a little bit.

Lydia really wants to see you. And I was like, who the fuck is Lydia? And it was then that I was informed. She had brought along this teenage girl who was very much a baby like she's still in high school and I'm not really sure why she brought her along. I was like man these people aren't gonna fucking leave until I am Straight up with them like if I had talked to them because at this point I'd not been straight up with her because I felt like I couldn't but I was getting to a point where I was like

No, this needs to end right now. And they pull into my boyfriend's house and I get in the car. And my boyfriend doesn't really want me going with them, but I'm like, look, I'll be right back. We're not going far. I just need to tell them, you know, what's what. And he's like, okay, I trust you.

So I get into the car and they're like, okay, well it's like a 45 minute drive to the hotel. And I'm like, whoa. They ask if I want to pick up clothes from my parents' house. What? Yeah, they're like, you want to get a change of clothes? And I was like, what do you mean?

They're like, we're coming to stay with us, right? And I was like, never said that. That's something that you are making up in your head. And she's like, oh, okay, well, we can just start driving and we'll find something along the way to stop at. And I'm like, there is a little main street in our tiny town. It's like two blocks from here. It's walking distance.

We can stop there. Yeah. To give myself some autonomy because I knew that if I really needed to walk back home to my boyfriend's house that I could. You could get there. Yeah. So they seem really upset by this, but they're like, okay. So they drive me out to this little downtown area. I get some coffee and we're sitting there talking.

It is the end of June in the Southeast and it's like 90 degrees and I'm pregnant until I already feel like shit. And over the course of a couple hours, I sit there and go through- Hours? Hours, two hours. Oh my God. Yeah. I was like telling my life story to these people. They just kept asking questions. Did you feel like you were doing

your own hostage negotiations? Yes. She had complete authority to ask me any kind of invasive questions she wanted. Like it didn't even occur to her that it was none of her business, any of this stuff. Yeah. So we kept going through my relationship and she's like, yeah, I talked to him and he seemed

like a really nice guy. You know, I thought he was really great. I think you should marry him and just consider having his baby right now. And I was like, you know, it's funny you say that because you made him so incredibly angry when you were asking him all these invasive questions. And I don't think that you realize that, but he is very upset with you because none of this is any of your business, Kristen. And he changed her demeanor so abruptly after being told that.

And she's like, okay, it's been a couple of hours. I don't want you to have this abortion. And I'm like, well, I think I'm going to have an abortion. And these are the reasons which I've already articulated to you. It's the finances. It's that I just got out of rehab. It's that I'm literally weeks away from going to university. It's that I don't have to explain any of this to you.

Yeah. And so she switches up. And her immediate response to that is, I think your boyfriend is abusing you. What? And exactly. And I was like, what are you talking about? And she's like, I think your boyfriend is forcing you to have an abortion and he's abusing you.

And I don't think that you're in a safe situation. And I'm like, the boyfriend that you were just trying to convince me to marry and have children with five, 10 minutes ago, this is the boyfriend that's abusing me. How did you come to this conclusion? At this point, I'm like, I need you to take me home right now

because it's been hours, it is hot, I feel sick, I wanna go home. My boyfriend's texting me asking if I'm okay. I need to be home now. She's like, well, I need to talk to Lydia and they go into this restaurant to use the bathroom and I can see them through the window talking and pointing at me,

and I'm like, this is ridiculous. And she finally gets out of this restaurant and gets out of her negotiations with this teenage girl, and she's like, Lydia says she doesn't want to drive you home because you're in an abusive situation, so here's what you can do. What I can do, you can call your parents to pick you up. And at this point, to stop myself from getting

into an altercation with this woman, I just started walking the other direction because I have never felt so unsafe in an altercation like this. And I'm like, I'm just, I need to get out of here. So I start walking and I can hear her screaming after me. And I hear her get on the phone with someone. And it does not occur to me

that the person she could be speaking to is a 911 operator. Oh my God. And as I'm walking down the street, an ambulance pulls up in front of this empty church and stops and two EMTs get out. And I have a gut feeling that they're looking for me. And so I go up to them and I'm like,

hey, do you guys need directions or something? Why are you stopped here? She's like, we're looking for a girl that matches your description actually. Your friend called and said that you're suicidal and that you're trying to hurt yourself. And I let out the most animal sound that I think I've ever let out.

Something between a wail and like a stream of frustration. And I'm like, look, I'm going to level with you. This is what's going on. I know it's going to sound weird, but these girls are like really, really religious and they don't want me to have an abortion. And being where I'm from, that makes total sense. That's the culture of the Southeast. This EMT, luckily, is a really cool lady

and a normal person, and she's like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. We're not gonna evaluate you. You are clearly of sound mind. You're articulating yourself very clearly. The police officer is about to pull up and we'll have him drive you home because we can't take you home in an EMT vehicle,

but we'll have the police officer drive you home because we can't take you home in an EMT vehicle but we'll have the police officer drive you home. So the police officer takes me home and I come inside yeah and my boyfriend's like did a police car just drop you off? And I like fell into his arms and I collapsed and I was just sobbing and I explained what happened to him so I'm'm like, look, man, I'm really hungry. I feel sick and horrible. I just, can you go make some breakfast for dinner? Um, so he goes downstairs and he like, starts making some biscuits and stuff. And like, I throw on one of his t-shirts

and like, my boxers, and I'm just like, trying to relax. And it's about two hours that I'm at home and I finally step out into the yard and like I'm gonna call Teresa Bikovinac to see if she organized this. Yeah. So I get on the phone with Teresa and she answers and I'm like hey, Kristen Turner just called the police on me and told them that I was suicidal because she doesn't want me to have an abortion. Did you or did you not tell her to do that? Because that is not legal.

You're at the very least lying to the police and misusing resources. And I need to know if this is an action of your organization or just something that Kristen Turner did. And Teresa says, we're all just really worried about you. So it's a yes, in my humble opinion. Yep. Yep.

Yep. Like she knew what was happening. Right, right. She was apprised of it, whether it was her idea or not. She knew what was going on. Exactly. So she says that and as she gets out of her mouth, two cars pulling in the driveway with headlights

way too bright for me to make out what they are. And I'm standing there barefoot and my boxer shorts and a ratty t-shirt with no bra And I scream for my boyfriend. He comes running out of the house at a speed. I've never seen a human being move and he like gets in front of me puts his body right in front of mine and is like Yelling at this car. Like what are you doing in my driveway? As police officer steps out. Oh my god fully, and I'm able to see now that there are bars on the windows

of both these police cars that are sitting in front of me. And I, this is really hard. This is really hard to say. I'm sorry. I was like clinging to my boyfriend as this police officer is saying, we have a warrant from a magistrate because someone filed an affidavit certifying that

this girl is a danger to herself and we have to take her to be evaluated at a psych ward. They wanna put her in a psych ward for 72 hours and hold her there. Oh, my God. And I'm clinging to my boyfriend like a child, and I'm sobbing. And I'm like, you can't let them take me. Don't let them take me. Like, these people can't do this. And I was just sobbing and, like, wailing.

I just want to go home. Mm-hmm. And I have never, in my life, felt more like a scared child than I did in that moment. It was still really hard for me to think about. I'm so sorry. It's hard to think about them wanting to put you through that after everything they already knew about you, you know? Yeah.

Like to just, let's just traumatize her a little bit more, a little bit more, a little bit more, a little bit more, a little bit more. Exactly. So I turned away and I'm like looking at the woods and looking at like this very safe place that I'd been able to like retreat to after rehab. Like my boyfriend has this beautiful property. It's a farm property. You know, it's got all these woods and a creek and I'd love to like run with our dogs. And it always just been like such a safe place to me. And I felt like I was just trying to cling to any of that safety.

And as I was like looking around like an animal caught in a trap, I hear the police officer go, don't turn away from me, don't turn away from me, because I'll cuff you. What? Yeah, I mean, he was like, if you walk away, we'll put you in handcuffs. And I saw him reaching for, I think it was a baton.

Oh my God. Yeah, and I was so scared. And my boyfriend was like, I'm really sorry, baby, but you have to go with them because, you know, they have a warrant, like I can't stop them. And like, you just don't fight with them or you're going to make it worse. And I was thinking, people can't fucking do this. And they're like, just go to the ER and just explain it to the psychiatrist and they'll let you go

If they think that you're not a danger to yourself So I get into the police car What if you actually were like they really believed or thought or were there because you were supposedly suicidal yeah, and they're gonna threaten to cuff and Hang on to their baton for a Mental health check I mean and mind you I am 90 pounds soaking wet. I'm this tiny little 5 foot 2 woman Mm-hmm cowering behind her boyfriend and

they're like Obviously, you know physically intimidating me. Yeah. So I get in the back of the police car and I'm like crying. I'm like can my boyfriend just get me my fucking shoes? And they're like yeah okay so he goes and brings me my sneakers and they put me in this police car and they close the door and I'm looking at my boyfriend through these barred windows and I'm looking at my boyfriend through these barred windows. And at this moment, I was like, holy shit, like,

I immediately thought of how my grandmother must have felt when they took my mother from her and put her in an orphanage. Like, this state really can just come and take you. You don't have institutional power if you're a threat also to that institutional power. Like, the law really doesn't mean shit. You don't have institutional power if you're a threat also to that institutional power like The law really doesn't mean shit and I had still had my phone. I have no fucking idea why they still let me have my phone and I texted my dad

I've never called My mom and dad mommy and daddy since I was like nine, but I texted him. I was like daddy like I can't really explain what's going on, but like I'm in the back of a police car right now. And I'm my daddy's little girl. Like I am. I need tissues. No, yeah. I'd always been a straight A student. I always been, you know been doing five extracurriculars and in a debate club. I'd always been such an achiever.

My dad is so proud of me. The idea that I would ever be in a police car was just so alien to him. My dad knows Kristen Turner, knows of her. I was like, Kristen Turner called the police and told them that I'm suicidal and I'm being taken to the hospital to be evaluated. Can you meet me there? And he was like, absolutely, baby. Like, I'm going to be there. Just hold on. I was texting my boyfriend and I was telling him like what hospital they're taking me to. And I was trying to explain to the police officers, I was like, I know

I sound like a crazy person, but I'm not suicidal. These girls are just trying to stop me from having an abortion. They're like, we can't help you. You just need to save this for the people at the hospital. Basically, whatever. Too late. We're just following protocol or whatever. Yeah.

Exactly. And... I'm so sorry. And I apologize for, you know, having you relive this. I mean, like, the only thing that I can think of when I think of how I felt in that moment is that there are so many women who have been through similar experiences, especially women of color who have had these experiences and tried to talk about it and no one gave a fuck,

and that have been permanently victimized and traumatized by the state in this way because they were pregnant. There are people who have had these experiences and just, they just have to live with it because the system doesn't care. And just that I've been able to platform this story, I think just makes it worth

telling. Like letting people know that I didn't expect to cry so much. It's okay. I cry on the show all the time. At least a couple times a season. Real. Yep. So what did you say at the hospital?

I got there before my dad and my boyfriend and they like perp walked me through the ER. Again I'm wearing these boxer shorts and old t-shirt and I have these two big old police officers walking me through and like every nurse in this hospital is lined up along the walls of the ER staring at me as they walk me to my room. And I just wanted to be compacted into a little ball and vanish. I had never been looked at that way in my entire life, even when I was in rehab. And you don't even know why they're looking at you like that.

It's probably because cops are there, but like, is it because you're suicidal? Is it because they know that you're pregnant? Is it like all of the different things that people could be judging you for? Yeah, like I didn't even know what they'd been told. Right, right. So I get in there and I'm explaining to every nurse that comes in. I explain to the attending doctor

and he's like, I'll forward this to the psychiatrist. Like I'm really just here to make sure that you're not physically hurt, but like I'll tell her, like I believe you, that shit is crazy. And finally the psychiatrist comes in like hours later, my boyfriend's been there at that point holding my hand. Yeah.

Trying to get me to eat something. My dad's come in and talked to me. My dad at that point didn't even know I was pregnant. My mom did. But I mean, again, I'm daddy's little girl and like a star student and I just, I didn't want him to see me that way. And my boyfriend had to tell his parents that I was pregnant too. So like now everybody knows I'm pregnant.

And thinking about having an abortion. And the psychiatrist comes in and she asks my boyfriend to leave and she talks to me about everything. And she's like, here's what they told me happened. Have you seen this affidavit that they filed? And I was like, no, no one showed me anything. I don't know what's going on. So I'm going to read the affidavit that was issued by the court. It has a bunch of typos and mistakes, but I'll try to read it as it's meant to be read, I believe.

Respondent has been talking to friends slash ex-co-workers from California and Georgia. They were in DC on a work trip. Respondent said she was struggling. Respondent went to a drug rehab at dot dot dot and was released at the end of May. Respondent said she took a bunch of pills trying to kill herself. Respondent lives with her boyfriend who is an employee at dot dot dot the rehab. She was referred there with her boyfriend who is an employee at...the rehab. She was referred there by him. There is a 19-year age difference between the two. The conversation between Respondent and Petitioner led Petitioner and another friend to come to North Carolina to see about her because her behavior was abnormal. Respondent told Petitioner today

that she wanted to kill herself by taking her mom's opioids. Petitioner stated the respondent's personality is not aligned with her values. Respondent has been raped before, and she shared with petitioner that she's in the worst mental place of her life. The fuck is that supposed to mean, by the way? Like, she's been raped before, but this is worse. My mother has never been prescribed opioids in her life and I have never done opioids in my life. So they had like pieced together all this information about me and him and it ended up like a bad game of telephone because they put a lot of stuff on this affidavit that just wasn't true. Okay. They alleged that he was abusing me, that I was an addict, that I was a danger to myself.

Importantly, because I was trying to have an abortion and they believed that my boyfriend was forcing me to because it went against my values. It's the exact verbiage they used. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. This random child who is putting me in a psychiatric ward for trying to have an abortion because she thinks it goes against my values. And the magistrate signed off on this.

Crazy. Crazy. I'm looking at this piece of paper like this is the piece of paper that very well could have turned my body into physical property of the state if this psychiatrist was one of these good old boys that are a dime a dozen where I live. Mm-hmm. It would have been so easy for me to get taken to a different hospital, talk to an old male psychiatrist, and boom, like, I would have been in the psych ward, and I would have probably gone over that 12-week deadline,

and I might have had to remain pregnant. And remembering what happened to my grandmother, I'm going through this scenario. I'm like, they would not have let me keep that infant if I had been committed to the psych ward while pregnant. Right. CPS is gonna take that baby from me, obviously. Especially when someone's alleging that I had done opioids.

Sure, yeah, exactly. Like Jesus Christ. So all this shit that just is not true. And it's now on this legal document associated with my name and this judge signs off on it. Right. Now you're a known person to the legal system in your hometown. Yeah. And the psychiatrist releases me. She was like, you're of sound mind. You're articulating yourself perfectly clearly. You've told a very confusing story in a way that I understood very well, and I think that's more than enough.

And also, like she talked to you, Kristin on the phone, and Lydia, and she was like, these girls are clearly anti-abortion zealots. Like, I can tell from the way that they're talking. She actually went and scanned in the affidavit and the, like, basically arrest warrant, but the custody warrant. To put in your medical file. Mm-hmm. So that I would have access to it.

Yeah. So I have now printed out and scanned all my medical records and I posted online my affidavit and all my medical records and all that stuff that, you know, proved that happened. But after they released me, it was like one in the morning, and I went home and I just like collapsed at my boyfriend's house. I was so tired. That's just such an awful day.

Your head must have been spinning. That you could have spent so many years as an ally to these folks. When I was a teenager, I was told like, oh, you know, we help women who want to remain pregnant by giving them diapers and paying their rent and helping them pay for cars and stuff. And I was like, that's great.

It never occurred to me that these people were capable of. Kidnapping you essentially. Yeah. And then have the police kidnap you and then have the police kidnap you and then have the hospital kidnap you. So did you get the abortion? Do you mind me asking? Yes, I ended up using Mipha Prishtone and Ms. Oprostel.

I initially did not tell anybody else, even my boyfriend, when I had my abortion because obviously at this point I was so scared of how criminalized me even considering an abortion had been. Right. So, I went home to my parents' house and had a self-managed abortion in my childhood bathroom by myself. Oh honey. And it was so, so, so scary because the whole time I had like ringing in my head, you know,

Emily Burning telling me that having an abortion would make me infertile and I'd never be able to have the children that I wanted to have and that I would die from like sepsis or hemorrhaging. Well, in that state you could because nobody would care for you. But yeah, I did it myself and it was so scary until it was over and then I was like, oh, you know. That was medical care. Yeah. Like I had a pretty standard medical.

It was painful. Yeah, yeah, but it's, you're not getting like an involuntary hysterectomy or something, which is what they make it sound like. Yeah, yeah, but it's that you're not getting like an involuntary hysterectomy or something, which is what they make it sound like. Yeah, yeah. And it's the loss, I think, particularly of that potential future of me being a mother that was hard because I do really want to be a mother, but I also knew that is a whole person and I know what it feels like to be raised in poverty.

Yeah. And I'm like, well, I can just wait a year or two and everything will still be here. Yeah, it's hard for me to get inside the heads of these people that just want to put you through more and more and more trauma. Not just the police, not just that you can't get into work, not just, you know, they want you to then be a really young mom who has to suffer through this thing. And I don't, I just, it's hard for me to imagine what good they think they're doing. Can you sue them? Are you suing them? You should sue them.

Here's the thing. I've thought a lot about this and I Really wish that there could be some kind of justice in this situation particularly against Kristen Turner and progressive anti-abortion uprising Mm-hmm, but in considering that a I've worried about especially as abortion is becoming more and more criminalized And we're looking at right now legislation that's been introduced federally to have a total federal abortion ban with House Bill 722. And I had no faith that they would not try to criminally prosecute me for the abortion I had as they were doing discovery for like the case that I had brought. And the laws keep changing. It's like you don't know one second to the next what's legal, what's illegal.

Lots of different states are coming up with retroactive laws to go back and prosecute people and whatever. There's like a million little asterisks. I talked to the Repro Legal Health line. There are aspects of people having abortions they think are completely legal that it turns out they're liable for. Right. As quickly as they got that affidavit and you had a warrant out, that kind of stuff's happening all the

time but like on a grand scale where a doctor will be in the middle of, say, performing a procedure and the law changes while they're not looking. So I can see why you wouldn't want to involve the law. And also more than that, I don't know if you've heard this, because I actually didn't hear it for a couple of days, but apparently Donald Trump just released all of the anti-abortion protesters who have been held in violation of the FACE Act, including Lauren Handy, who worked with Progressive Anti-Abortion Uprising.

They'd all been to federal prison because they were involved in a quote-unquote rescue where a nurse was injured. And I looked at that and I was like, man, Kristen Turner is never going to get in trouble and go to jail or be held liable in any way that counts. If I go through the hell of court and trying to deal with this, just like with my rapist, nothing's going to happen to her because even at the end of the day, if a sane judge in North Carolina does something about it, Donald Trump's just gonna snap his fingers

and she's gonna be able to walk out. Right. So it doesn't matter what these people do to me, like it just feels like they just get to terrorize women as much as they want basically. And it's only getting worse. Exactly. Yeah. Meanwhile, I'm in a police car.

Right. I did not hear that about the face act, people getting let out of jail or federal prison rather. That ended any little voice that I had in the back of my mind that was like, what if these people were right? What if, you know, me having an abortion is going to traumatize me and like all this stuff? Like as soon as they put me through those things, I was like, nope, because these people cannot be on the right side.

There's no way that the right side would make me feel this way, would do this to me. You are not obliged to do anything, by the way. I want you to, I want to make sure I'm clear about that. Like, you can take it easy and never talk about this again. You don't owe anybody anything. But I'm just wondering if you, how you're thinking about this again. You're not, you don't owe anybody anything. But I'm just wondering if you, how you're thinking about it now. I had a while to think about it between like the news of my abortion breaking in far right

spaces and like the harassment that I endured after that and like having to leave school and everything. Like my life kind of went on pause for a couple weeks. Yeah. And I had time to think about like, what do I do now if anything? And the pros and cons of not doing something and doing something, because I was already facing such an insane amount of harassment, like I'd never experienced before in my life. And I was like, this is only going to get worse. If you talk about what happened,

you name Kristen Turner and you named Teresa Bikovinac and you go after these people because they react very poorly to you attacking their own. Sure. But at the same time, I was like, I would say especially in anti-abortion spaces, I don't think like people who are donating every once in a while to let them live know that they are funding things like this

and progressive anti-abortion uprising, like they're funding harassment of pregnant people and pressuring and coercion. And I think that if more people knew that this is actually what the anti-abortion movement is about, and it's not just about, you know, helping women who want to be pregnant. Well, that's why I got in touch with you, because I was like, I think that a lot of anti-abortion people like to claim that pro-choice folks are like fear-mongering. Oh, they're coming for your body and da-da-da-da-da.

And then I heard your story and I was like, hang on a minute. Literally someone got arrested for thinking about having an abortion. But I think people think this stuff isn't happening. We see these headlines saying, oh, Trump wants to criminalize miscarriage, you know, or bring death penalty against women who have an abortion. And we're in that moment where it's like turning really scary, but nobody wants to believe it, you know?

Like, yeah, that's anyway, that's why I reached out to you. I wanted to talk to you about the real life, scary consequences of what's happening all over the country right now. And what's interesting is that like, there's a lot of anti-abortion people who are starting to wake up to that, but feel like they can't leave.

And I think also in sharing my story, as well as alerting people to the severity of the situation and being like, no, people are being put in police cars for considering abortion is a real thing. Also being like, you can leave because I did. I left so publicly and I endured some bullshit for it, but it was worth it because I don't think any sane person should be able to live with themselves seeing something like what happened to me, or even experiencing that, and being like, OK, well, I'll still keep my head down.

Well, going from, I'm thinking as you're saying that, going from wanting to turn into a little ball in the hospital and disappear to now having become kind of the giant monster in their faces. They're scared of me. They are scared of you. And I'm wondering, like, where do you think you got that sort of strength? I think that I am a much more resilient person than I gave myself credit for for a very long

time. And I think that's a big part of it. I also think that having someone like my boyfriend through all of these things and who was able to be my strength sometimes when I couldn't, as well as my father, as well as my close friends. I leaned on so many incredible people during that time period when I was being harassed so badly that I had to leave school and I was being threatened. I'm very grateful to them, and I think that that's where a lot of my strength came from.

But also just the anger. And I think that a lot of people like me who have been through really traumatic things and who are really angry afterwards feel guilty for that anger, but I am really grateful for it because- You tapped into it. I tapped into it, and I used it to do all these things that without it, I just would not be able to do.

If I was just, you know, only able to sit with how scared and, you know, helpless it made me feel. Right. Right. So aside from the videos I've seen where you talk about this, are you doing any other sort of writing about it as a journalist? Yeah. I'm trying really hard.

So I do have my job with Plug CLT where I'm starting to write some pieces about abortion access. The latest one that I did was about a Catholic school in the Charlotte area that on a school sanctioned field trip brought their students out to protest a local abortion provider. What? Yep. It's getting crazy out there. Writing about that sort of thing. And then also I just applied and was accepted to interview at Collective Rising, which is

like a reproductive rights organization. I'm looking to get a summer internship with them and go to their conference. So I really hope that that works out. I really do appreciate you telling me your story and I'm sure you're going to do really great things. Thank you. Yeah. I'm really excited to see what you do in your career and life.

Thank you. I'll see you soon on TikTok. Thank you so much. Thank you. One of the many things that struck me about Charlotte's story, one that I can't stop thinking about, is just how many adults in her life, in the name of supposedly caring about children, took advantage of her when she herself was just a child. That so many adults let or maybe even want their politics to affect their morals. In other words, if you want to be in a certain group that aims

to change laws, you might start to believe people like Charlotte should suffer for that. You lose your empathy, your compassion in favor of some collective political goal. We'll unfortunately be hearing a lot more stories like this if we don't get our shit together. The Dream is a production of Little Everywhere. You can call us on our tip line at 323-248-1488. Let us know if you have a story for us to cover. RadioTopia from PRX.