I Will Teach You To Be Rich - 201. “I make $40k… but I own 100+ suits”

Episode Date: March 25, 2025

Today’s episode takes us to New York City, where I sit down with not two, but three couples live on stage at my Money for Couples event. First, meet Antonio (23) and Devonta (23), a young couple who in their 20s are already ahead of the game—earning money while finishing their degrees, having real conversations about finances, and even purchasing a home together. Next, we meet Pam (38) and Nic (40), who are struggling with a classic money dynamic: one partner earns significantly more and wants to “rescue” the other from financial stress. But as they discover, money alone can’t solve deeper issues of self-worth and financial confidence. And finally, for the first time ever on this show, a very special surprise guest joins me on stage. You don’t want to miss this! This episode is brought to you by: Leesa | Go to https://leesa.com for 20% off sitewide PLUS get an extra $50 off with promo code RAMIT, exclusive for my listeners. ZocDoc | Download the ZocDoc app for FREE at https://zocdoc.com/ramit then find and book a top-rated doctor today. Upwork | Visit https://upwork.com to post your job for free and connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. Shopify | Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at https://shopify.com/ramit. Links mentioned in this episode • Order my new book: Money for Couples Connect with Ramit • Get Money Coaching with Ramit • Download the Conscious Spending Plan • Listen to my book—now on Audible • Get my New York Times best-selling book • Get my no-numbers journal • Other episodes • Instagram • Twitter • YouTube If you and your partner have a money issue and you want my help, I occasionally select a couple to work with, free of charge. Apply for my help here.

What's up, New York? Whoa! As a student, you make $40K a year? What the hell? So it's kind of hard. We move from the apartment to a house. All these bills just keep coming in. Hold on, hold on. I got to do it. Are you telling me that when you buy a house, there are certain costs you did not account for? How many suits do you have?

Probably about 100. What? I'm, like, tagging along in this relationship. I'm like, well, that's really nice that we get to do cool things because Pam said we could. You want me to just tell you the answer? Yeah. No, that's not how it works. We are living in La La Land right now.

On today's episode, you'll get to join me on the third stop of my live book tour in a city that is very special to me, New York City. I loved being on the road for this tour and experiencing Boston and Chicago was unbelievable, but there is something special about coming home and having the opportunity to get on stage in my own backyard. Today I will speak with two couples at completely different ends of the socioeconomic spectrum. And that is one of my favorite things about New York.

We have a huge melting pot of all different backgrounds, culturally, financially, and we get to explore it today. Now, let's get to the show. Yes! Whoa! What's up, New York? Whoa! Love to see it!

Welcome, welcome, welcome! Oh my God! Alright, welcome everybody. It feels great to be back in New York. I lived here a long time. I met my wife here. And living here, you realize money here is different than money in

other cities right how many of us have been scrolling on social media we're just scrolling having a nice time and then you see some who posts hey who wants to live in New York in a one-bedroom apartment? Ugh! If you lived in my city, you could buy a house like this! And then they show you the ugliest f***ing house you've ever seen in your life. I go, who wants to live in a field surrounded by wheat and a Wells Fargo? I hate Wells Fargo. I hate Wells Fargo.

See, what people don't understand is that New York is like a cosmic vortex of finance, right? You wake up, you go outside, you go to work, you come home, you kick off your shoes, and then you just realize, I spent $375. I don't know why! It's New York. They will never understand it, but we do.

Like in another city, you walk into a breakfast place. You know, you sit down, you have your meal, you go, yummy, I'm so full. And you give them a $10 bill and you get change back. Here, I saw somebody this morning order a bagel at Apollo's Bagels. That bagel was $15. They won't get it, but we do.

Don't even bother trying to explain it to them. It's hopeless. What they don't understand is that real wealth in New York is not just about the clothes that you're wearing. It's not about the bag that you're carrying. It's none of that. Y'all want to hear the real levels of wealth in New York? Let me tell you.

Level one, you have an elevator in your building. Let me hear you if this is you. Is this you? Wow, wow, wow, wow. If this is you, you have officially made it. You are not climbing up a fifth floor walkup in August in Flatbush. Well done, well done. Well done.

Level two wealth in New York. You have a dishwasher in your apartment. Let me hear it if this is you. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Every night you finish putting stuff in the dishwasher, you close it, you wipe your hands and you just stare at that dishwasher and you say a prayer. Thank you, Lord. I don't have to scrub off my skin for the next 15 minutes and then use 20 paper towels to clean off my counter because I have no space to store these dishes. Thank you. Hallelujah. That's level two.

Level three wealth in New York. Laundry in your unit. Wow! Yes! Yes! Ladies and gentlemen, if you have laundry in your unit, you are ballin'! Okay? You definitely work at a job where you make so much, you can't contribute to your Roth IRA. Okay? Now, level 4 wealth in New York, which they will never understand, but we do. Central air conditioning.

Exactly. You know what I'm talking about. You know what I'm talking about, central air. You just turn on a switch, it cools the whole place down. Not that rattly old box that's three months away from falling out of your window and killing someone. If you have central air in your apartment, you are worth at least 10 million dollars. And now for the ultimate level of wealth in New York. This is level five wealth.

Can you guess what it is? No, it's not a car. It's not owning a Birkin. It's not even a summer house in the Hamptons. Can you guess what it is? No it's not a car, it's not owning a Birkin, it's not even a summer house in the Hamptons. If you live in New York and you have an in-sync garbage disposal, you are rich! Like Richie Rich! Yes! Like, use my house in Aspen because I'm never there Rich. That's Rich. Okay? Now I'm telling you, I'm telling you they will never understand

but we do. Now I love New York because I love the levels of wealth. I love talking about money. And I've had some of my best conversations about money in New York. People open up and they tell you things that you can't believe they're saying. And you never know what to expect like tonight. We get to explore one of the most fascinating and under explored relationships in our lives. And that is our relationship with money. So I want your help to welcome our guests who are coming out. Please get on your feet and give a huge welcome to Antonio and Devante.

Hello. How you doing? How's it going? It's good. Pretty good. How y'all feeling? A little nervous. Nervous? All right. Is this crowd here for them?

They are here for you. Thank you so much for being here. Now who applied to come up here? I did. You did. Okay. Is that normal in your relationship when it comes to money? Are you the more assertive one with money? Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. Okay. All right. Now I understand that you are both young and you both recently

bought a house and you're getting married this year. Is that right? Yeah. All right. So you told us that you feel like you're not able to get ahead with your savings goals. Now, before we get into all that, I just wanna say, I talk to a lot of different folks, different incomes, different locations, different situations. One of my favorite things in the world to do is to talk to young people

because the fact that you are up here asking the right questions early on is amazing and you have the time to set your life up the way you want to. So can we give it up for them? Young, asking these questions. Oh my God. You're 23 years old.

Yeah. Amazing. How many people here wish they started optimizing their money at 23? Damn, look at that. Look at that. That's got to feel good seeing that. Yeah.

You're doing it right. OK, great. So I want to know a little bit about your financial dynamic. Income wise, you both earn similar or different incomes? Different. Different. OK, break it down for me. So I'm a registered nurse, so I earn like $65,000.

So $65,000 a year. $65,000, OK. And I'm a full-time college student, and I work part-time, and I have a residential cleaning business. OK. How much do you make from that? For my cleaning business, this year I made $20,000. And for my part-time income, I make around $20,000, so I have like $40,000 a year. As a student, you make $20,000 and for my part-time income I make around $20,000,

so I have like $40K a year. As a student you make $40K a year? What the hell? I feel like this is going to be very easy for me. All right, 23 year old making good money, great. Now this was a role reversal because you all switched incomes recently. Explain that a little bit. So basically, last year, me and Antonio was in an apartment and he was going to school full time in his accelerated program. And I was working part time, but I was also doing

my cleaning business. So like financially, we're in a better position. We didn't have the house, so we didn't have, like, this much debt. I was basically covering the majority of everything, because the bills weren't that much. Like, our granny was helping us financially with the rent, so we just had to cover, like, the utilities and then, like, eating, you know, everyday expenses, which wasn't that much. So I was basically, like, the sole provider while he was going to school. He was in a celery program working one day a week.

All right. And it flipped now one day a week. All right. And it flipped now. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So how do you feel about that, Antonio? So I'm not used to like per se being like the breadwinner or like provider role. So it's kind of hard because like we moved from the apartment to a house and then it's

like all these bills just keep coming in. What do you mean? Hold on. Hold on. I got to do it. Are you telling me that when you buy a house, there are certain costs you did not account for? Well, we did, but I didn't think it was going to get like that. Thank you so much. Thank you. Feels so good right now. All right. There's a lot of phantom costs in owning, that's for sure.

Okay. You mentioned something. You said, I'm not used to being the provider. That's interesting. How would you characterize each of your financial roles in the relationship? So he usually, like in the past, will handle more of like the bills and stuff. Like I know they're coming, but I wouldn't see them. True.

And so like. You knew they were coming like spiritually? Yeah like you know I know like first of the month the rent. Okay. I knew how much the rent cost but I just knew like it was handled. Okay. Or I don't know like the water bill or something like that was coming. What about for you for me?

I more so handled like saving our money or like just planning it out Okay, what do you say? Um, it's like basically what he was saying. Like I will take care of all the bills I'm kind of like a splurger. So I would kind of like bias things like take us out to eat and stuff like that What do you splurge on? Um suits? What? Yeah What like how many suits you have? So I would kind of like buy us things like take us out to eat and stuff like that. Well, what do you splurge on? Suits. What? Yeah. What? Like how many suits you have?

So usually like I travel a lot and I do like a lot of events because I'm a business major. So usually when it's like an event or anything like that, I will always buy a brand new suit to go to the events. Notice how he did not answer my question. How many suits? Probably about 100. What? Are you serious?

You have 100 suits? Yeah. Oh my god. What? I did not know that. What am I supposed to do with this information? Like, how do you have enough closet space for that? Yeah, there's closet space, so I make closet space space and then I have like a wardrobe full of the suits

Okay And then like the ones I can't fit anymore I just give away Do you think that it's normal to have 100 suits? Legit. No. What do you think would be like a average amount of suits for a man? I'll be 20 It's worth it Yo! I think that's a good number We are living in La La Land right now 20. 20. 20.

20. 20. 20. 20. 20. 20. 20. 20.

20. 20. 20. the mission of like, we both want financial freedom. And our definition of that, like per se, like we just want to not have to worry about like money or have like the luxury of traveling because that's our passion. So we are aligned in that sense. Hold on. So financial freedom for you is not worrying about money

and traveling. Yeah. Okay. Do you think you'll be able to achieve that? Down the line, yeah. I think definitely you'll be able to achieve that? Down the line, yeah. I think definitely we'll be able to achieve it. So like, buying this house was like our first financial investment to financial freedom, because like real estate,

I believe real estate is the way to get into, like to start financial freedom. So that was why the decision for buying the house. So we want to retire before 50. So that's our goal. OK, got it. That's helpful. I like that. Specificity. Okay, great. So Antonio,

you're more frugal with saving? Yeah, like how many suits do you have? I have like probably like five. Five. All right. So like, what do you say when he comes home with another suit? So yeah, he likes to every event or conference he'll go out like, oh, I got to get a new suit. I'm like, well, no, you got suits in the closet. And so I kind of just tell him to like restyle it, but he doesn't want to restyle it. He wants like a new one.

So I've been telling him like, you know, every time is not needed. Did you buy a new suit like for this trip? No. Okay, okay. All right. That's interesting. So right now it's like, you know, it's kind of funny.

What happens if you keep that pattern up for the next 10 years where, you know, you're buying a suit and then you're like, do you really need a suit? Why are you buying a suit? What happens as the numbers get bigger and the stakes get higher? I feel like there does be like kind of some tension when it comes to like his spurging in a sense.

Cause like sometimes I feel like it's unnecessary and I feel like if it keeps going on, it's like we're going further and further from like our goals. Yeah. We'll get back to Antonio and Devante after a quick break to support our sponsors. This episode is sponsored by Lisa and I use this product myself.

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As part of my rich life, I have 10 money rules. And one of those rules is I can spend guilt-free on anything relating to my health. That means healthier foods, working with a personal trainer, and buying books or courses on improving health and wellness. But it also means that I stay on top of regular health checkups. And finding a good doctor in network is incredibly difficult. That's why if I were looking for a new doctor or a specialist, I would use the sponsor of this week's episode, ZocDoc.

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If I needed to find a doctor today, this is what I would use. Stop putting off those doctor's appointments. Go to zocdoc.com slash Ramit to find and instantly book a top-rated doctor today. That's z-o-c-d-o-c dot com slash Ramit. Zocdoc.com slash Ramit. Now back to the show. If you had $10,000 extra, what would you do with it? Well, I wouldn't buy no more suits. I think I have enough suits. I'll probably say buy another house or invest into another like real estate property or something like that. Okay. So if that's the case, then if you have like 500 bucks,

sounds like you go and buy another suit. So what's the difference? So the difference is like, I guess because I have way more more money So I feel like if I have that if I look at it at that number then I'm like, okay I have to do something big I have to invest this money and not you know Utilize that $500 to buy another suit So I think because I like I see like the three four hundred dollars I'm okay. I can extra that I have so I'm like I can just take this and buy another suit or something like that Yeah, whatever I see it gets spent. Yeah, if there was a big chunk, I might invest it in something. Okay, okay Antonio when you think about the hundred suits, etc

How does it make you feel? I Will get annoyed for that reason. Yeah, like for me like 15 suits is annoyed Like Like for me, like 15 suits is annoyed. Like 40 is a different word and 100 is a different word. What do you think? That's me. You tell me. Well, yeah, I feel like it gets kind of like excessive in a sense, cause it doesn't need to be splurged like that.

That's why I'm trying to understand this idea. Cause you described yourself sometimes as a splurger, Devante, and then you tell me of 100 suits, that's what you splurge on. Sometimes I ask people, what would you spend more money on? And if they like to eat out, they will go, oh, I would eat out four times a week. I think in your case, it's I like suits, I would buy 100 suits. And sometimes I ask them, what if you ate at a nicer restaurant? What if you got a custom meal, a custom suit made? Have you ever thought about that?

No, I haven't. Really? Tell me more. So I haven't really thought about it like that. I don't know. Like, I just, for each event that I want to attend, I just want to look nice and want to, you know, stand out. So that's why I, you know, buy another suit.

Is the idea that deep down is the belief more is better? I would say kinda, because growing up, like both of my parents were on social security. So they, you know, they have five kids. So they didn't have like, there was no there was no money for us or anything like that. And then I didn't have the money to go get new clothes like I want to, or just dress nice or look nice. So I think as I got older and I got access to this money and I'm going to these different events

and I'm seeing these industry leaders looking nice, I kind of want to resemble that or embody that. So that's why I go out and make sure I look nice. And first impressions is key for me. I get all that I don't get the hundred. So like what I'm trying to get at is I don't mind nice things I like them too but when I hear that the two of you have a vision of retiring before 50 and I hear 10, 20, 50, 100 suits, I start to go, right now, you're earning what you're earning as a student.

Soon you're gonna earn a lot more. That's a lot more money. I suspect you'd probably be tempted to get a lot more suits. I would, if I bought 100 suits, I'd want, it's like eating tortilla chips. I eat 10 chips, I want 20 more. Right? So what I'm trying to really get at here is what's the vision individually and together?

I hear the together vision, which is retire before 50 financial freedom. I love it. I don't hear how the individual vision contributes to that. I believe like once I get older, I won't or once I make more money, I won't buy any more suits. I think that's kind of just like a now thing How many people in this room? Cheer if you believe that

Dude nobody buys less of things they love when they make more money they buy more Right, there's not there's no problem. Not trust me. I'm not the guy who tells you don't spend money on suits or lattes. That's not me. What I'm trying to get at is what's the vision? If I want to look great, one way to do it is to have dozens of suits. Another way is to have a certain number of suits and to restyle them. Maybe the suit quality goes up or maybe it's the same but I have 20 different shirts and I want you to really think about it because the decisions you make today

carry through for the next 20-30 years. Okay, how do you all set your accounts up? So we have a joint checking account where like all of our bills come out of like the fixed costs. We have a high- high yield savings account together and then we have personal high yield savings accounts. Great. Okay, great. Amazing.

And are you planning a wedding right now? So I don't want a wedding because of the cost. So we decided to like just elope and do something private with both of us. Cool. I love that. Yeah. I love that.

You know what I love? To me, big wedding, small wedding, it's all good. What I love is that the two of you talked about it. Yeah. I love that. You know what I love? To me, big wedding, small wedding, it's all good. What I love is that the two of you talked about it. Yeah. And you decided this is for us. So that's beautiful. Let's take a quick look at the numbers here. All right.

So what we see here is assets of 157K, investments 5,000, debt is 185, total net worth of about 2020,000, gross annual income of $100,000 approximately, fixed cost is 61%, and investments at $9,000. How do you all feel about these numbers? I feel okay a little bit. I'm proud of where I came from, from where I started. I just more so feel like the debt component, like it gives me like anxiety.

Yeah. Yeah. Same, I feel the same way. I feel like our numbers are pretty good, but I feel like they could be better. And I just want us to like work on paying down the debt. I don't like to see that high of a number for debt. Okay.

I think your CSP is pretty good, honestly. For 23 years old, I think it's really good. And you got a student, like you're not even earning your full-time income, correct? So this is solid. And it's really important when we talk about money, it's like a window into our soul. It tells you how people feel.

So did you notice how the two of you answered a question? It was very similar. I said, how do you feel about those numbers? What was your answer? Good, but anxious about the debt. Yes. Good, but don't like to see the high of a number with debt. Exactly.

So you guys were like, it's good, but anyway, I feel really horrible about it. We've got to fix this and that. You glided over the good so quickly. And I wonder, what would it look and feel like if you actually spent more time on the good? I once had a performance review for one of my teammates coming up, and I have this group of CEOs I'm in a group with,

and they were like, are you ready for the performance review? And I always find them challenging. And they said, how good is this employee? I said, oh, he's really good. They said like on a percentage one to a hundred, how good is he? I said, he's 90%, like great.

They said, in your performance review, which is gonna be an hour, how much time are you planning to be positive versus constructive? And it just immediately hit me because I was gonna say a couple of nice things and then spend the rest of the time focusing on all the things that he could do better.

And they taught me to flip it. If something's good, spend a lot of time on the good. Yes, we can fix the stuff that needs to be fixed like the debt, but sometimes it really helps to really lean into that feeling of good. You guys think you can do that? Yeah, definitely.

Definitely focus more on it. Yeah, all right, celebrate. 23, you got these numbers, quick calculations, very simple calculations. If on one income, if you just continue, you'll have $1.6 million at retirement. That's great. Okay? That's good?

Yeah. If you have two incomes, that's $3.1 million. Oh, wow. And y'all, we didn't add in any increases in incomes. None of it. So you know that if you were like, we want to have four million or five million, you could do that because you're 23 years old and tiny little changes now echo 25 years down the road,

30 years. So now I'm going to ask you again, how do you feel about those numbers? We're in a great position. Right? Yeah. Yes. Look at that smile. numbers. We're in a great position. Yes! Look at that smile!

That's what I'm talking about. Feeling good, really leaning into that, celebrating with each other. We did it. Look how far we came. Look how we grew up. Look where we are now. And look where we get to go together. That to me is really powerful. How do you think that that will change the dynamic

of your money conversations going forward? I feel like we have money conversations like almost like weekly, but it's like- Wait, what are you talking about weekly? Like we'll just like reflect over like, kind of like where we're at like financial wise, like what we have to pay and things like that. We like, we're, right now it was like a lot of worry

conversation, like worried about like pain. That's so surprising. Yeah, because like I'm a perfectionist. So I kind of like in like a tense about like paying off certain things that we have. So I kind of go overboard. Oh, wow. So out of a 30 minute conversation, it's not 30 is it?

How long is the conversation? Sometimes it's 30, but we get like really deep into it maybe like an hour, maybe. Out of an hour, how much of it is positive versus negative? I would like percentage wise, we're probably 75% like negative, then 25% positive. Yeah. That's honest. That's actually how most money conversation

is like 90 plus percent negative. Because really the only time people talk about money is when they're fighting. And then they go, let's go to sleep and pretend this didn't happen and let's wait for another six weeks until it comes up again. So the fact that you're actually proactive about it is amazing. I think a week is kind of aggressive. Like gosh, that's like, what do we need to talk about every week? If we've set things up to flow smoothly,

if each person owns a couple of numbers, probably a week, you may not need to do it, but I'll leave that to you. Typically, I say every month, some people do it every week or bi-weekly, that's up to you, but I would really just, you know, some of the stuff in the book is

how to have these money conversations be positive. We always start with a compliment. We always give each other a hug, a high five at the end. Really re-characterize them. One thing that I would really remind myself of if I were in your situation is we're on a single income for right now, but as a temporary situation.

When do you start a full-time job? So potentially the fall of 2026. Okay, do you know how much you'll make when you start that? Yeah, so starting salary is about 75 to 85K. Damn, all right, so that's a lot. I mean, that's going to be great. So have you all talked about where the money is going to flow when you make that much? Yeah, I believe we talked about it.

Yeah, do we? Yeah, like right now. Kind of staying on the same plan of like, we kind of want to switch to like living off of one income and using other income to just save or invest like how we want to. So I feel like that's kind of where we want to stick to. But where's the suit money going to come from? No kidding. Really? Where is it? Those are going to probably come from my portion. So I'm probably going to be paying all the bills and we're going to be living off my income. So I'm going to make sure I have a little bit for probably my suits.

Like how much? Probably a year, probably, I want to say like 5,000. 5,000 a year off a hundred K. Yep. Okay. It's not my money. It's not my position to say. I think that if the two of you set your accounts up right, which my suggestion would be joint shared joint account, and then you each have then you have some joint guilt free money,

things like eating out, trips, all that stuff that's important to you, and then you each have some individual guilt free money, then that guilt free money that's individual is no questions asked. If you wanna buy another suit, it's your money. No questions. But it's gotta come from from there. Can't come

from the joint money because that suit doesn't make sense for the joint. So that's why I really love setting this money up so that each of us has individual no questions asked money and within that it's yours to play with. Your partner knows about your account. They don't even have access to the account though. It's yours and you have your own as well. Each of you do what you want. If you set that up and you two come up with a vision as teammates, this is how much we're going to have. Our incomes are about to go up significantly because we're going to combine them, we're going to have another income and we have this vision of maybe buying another property, retiring at 50, traveling,

I think it'd be very, very successful. All right, let's give it up for Antonio and Devante. Thank you very much. Well done. Great to see you guys. Thank you very much. You know, I have to say, it's rare that I get a chance to speak

with such a young couple, and I have to applaud them for thinking about their finances at 23 years old. And hearing their story is a great reminder that how we talk about money influences the way we feel about money. And in order to feel better about money, we could probably benefit from spending a little bit

of time celebrating how far we've come, as opposed to just dwelling on what we don't yet have. Wait until you hear their followups at the end of this episode. I am blown away by the progress they've made in a really short time. I think you will be too.

We'll get back to the show after a quick break to support our sponsors. I've been in business for over 20 years and I work with a lot of business owners. And one of the misconceptions when you start out is that you have to do everything yourself. You have to write the emails, design the webpages, add the landing pages, edit the social posts,

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over just the last few months. Graphic designers for PDFs, TikTok video editor, content editor for an email campaign, and web design for a new sales page. And we just post the job on Upwork. It doesn't cost anything to join. You can register, browse profiles, get help drafting a job post, and you can book a consultation. From there, you connect with freelancers. You can look at their portfolio and you can hire them to get started on projects right away. Upwork makes the entire process easier and more affordable. And with Upwork, you can access top talent across tons of different

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at Shopify.com slash Ramit, all lowercase. Go to Shopify.com slash Ramit to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.com slash Ramit. Now let's get back to the show and meet our second couple, Pam and Nick. Please get on your feet and welcome Pam and Nick. Welcome. Hello. How you doing? Welcome, please. Hi. All right. Hello. How you doing? Good. How you feeling you doing? Good.

How you feeling? Nervous. Nervous. Okay. Can we give it up? We have the best community in the world. We're all here for you. By the way, I asked you to send a photo. You sent these great photos and

my team selected one of the photos you sent. Can we take a look here? I do love the photo. I don't think I need many comments here. Okay. Now, Pam, I want to just jump right into what you wrote in your application for today. You said, biggest challenge, trying to figure out whether my partner, Nick, can stop working

given my high income. We both come from low income backgrounds and a lot of financial insecurity during our childhood. We both used to be avoiders and we're now trying to be in charge of our money. First of all, I gotta say, I really admire the fact that the two of you were avoiders, grew up in a low income environment,

and you are here right now in New York talking about this in front of tons of people. To me, that's very inspiring. Thank you. What did you feel about money when you were growing up? Never enough. There were times where we didn't have a home to live in. And so it was something that we just didn't have.

And thus was like sort of the crux of insecurity, lack of safety. How did money work in your family? Like, did you have a dwindling bank account or a stack of cash in the house? What was it like? I don't even know if my mom had a bank account. My mom was on welfare for most of my growing up.

I remember very clearly a wad of cash that she would keep in her dresser drawer in her bedroom. And I would just see through the month that roll getting smaller. And when it was out, we were like, okay, well, now we just have to make it through until the next check comes in the mail. Wow.

Okay. Thank you for sharing that. What about for you? How did you feel about money? It was definitely, there was always a culture of working as hard as possible, like grinding to earn enough. I immigrated with my family when I was 10 years old. So there was also the switch to moving to the US and leaving everything behind and starting from zero and learning a new language. So it was just a lot of having to figure out how to earn money.

I don't think that many people can understand what it's like to move to a different country or to see a stack of cash getting smaller and smaller and you know that that is it. I think we all have some feeling where oh my god is there going to be enough and you're here today. You're here today because your financial situation has changed considerably but there's some other issues, some other psychological and communication challenges, I think still remain. Pam, how did you get into your current industry, tech? Yeah, I got my master's degree in Italian.

And then when I graduated with that, I basically applied to like 200 jobs anywhere in the country that needed that skill set. Okay. And then I got hired by a tech startup that was working on teaching foreign languages. Okay. A big one that probably people in this room have heard of? Yeah, it's called Duolingo. Okay.

Okay. And then what were you doing there? So I was working as a language expert, helping to create course content. Okay. So like all the weird sentences. And then while I was there, I was working with a lot of bright software engineers,

a lot of bright product designers, and I learned technical skills through that. Okay, and take me forward to today. Where are you now? What do you do? So now I work in software engineering. I do large-scale program management. So you said, quote, I had no business in tech,

but I kept learning and getting promoted. Pretty amazing. Pretty amazing. Can we just take a look at the numbers? Okay, pop them up. Let's take a look. Gross monthly income, if I just net it out for you, is $633,000 a year. That's what I love. That's what I love.

You know, sometimes I have couples, they have all different incomes that come on stage. Sometimes they're in huge debt, sometimes they have huge incomes. And it's a little touchy to talk about a huge income. But on the occasions where I've brought couples up here who have a very high income, the crowd always cheers. And I really love you for that

because we can support people who are in debt, we can support people who have huge incomes. It doesn't, the whole point of my work is that the way you feel about money is highly uncorrelated to how much you have in the bank. And so I really appreciate you sharing that. You have zero dollars in assets. So that means you rent.

Great. Your investments are $865,000. Fantastic. Saving $69,000. Debt 228. That's all my student loans. Ah, okay. We'll get to that.

And I mean, the rest of this is like fixed costs are 38%. Yeah, that's what happens when you have a super high income. How do you feel about the numbers? Amazing. Great, wow! Thank God. I don't have to talk to another high earning couple that goes, oh, I don't know, 630 isn't enough. Great. I love that answer. I feel

amazing. Great. How about you? How do you feel about the numbers? I feel like I'm really fortunate. My contribution is significantly less in terms of the totals. And I also come along with that, that debt component. I feel fortunate to be where we are together, maybe a little bit of guilt in my portion. Right. OK. So to clarify, you're not married. Are your finances combined or not?

We just moved in together in August. And our goal is to merge finances and figure out what that looks like. Nick, what is your income? My income? Yeah. 153. That's pretty good.

It sounds like you say it like you're a little bit embarrassed. That's a very good income. Right. you're a little bit embarrassed. That's a very good income. Right, well, I worked really hard to get there and then I made it and I met everyone that, you know, by comparison, I was like, oh wait, I guess maybe I didn't do as well as I thought I was doing. So like when we talk about comparing ourselves to the Joneses, it's literally this,

except it's income and not material things. Okay. Well, we all think your income is great and combined, great. And combined, it's outstanding. So, all right, let's talk about that. Nick, you have debt. What is the debt from? It's all school. Okay. How do you feel about it? What is the debt from? It's all school. Okay. How do you feel about it?

I wish I could have a conversation now with the person who decided to sign those loans. What would you have said? You can get this degree at a less expensive school. What was the degree? I'm a nurse practitioner. So you got $228,000 or so of debt. Do you feel proud of the schooling that you went through? Yeah, I worked really tremendously hard.

So I am proud of that. Do you feel ashamed of having the debt? Yes, 100%. How do you reconcile those two? I guess the idea that I could have done it differently. Okay. Kind of looking back, if I had changed this, I would be in a different place. How does that feeling of shame or regret,

how does that affect your relationship? There's sort of like, you know, the mean voice sort of in the back of my head that I'm bringing a burden into the relationship. And I told Pam early on that part of the reason that I would never marry somebody is because I'm not gonna saddle them with poor decisions that I made. Okay.

Again, this was a decision to get a professional degree. Yes. Which makes you a good income. Yeah. All right. If you had no debt, would you all be talking about marriage in a different way? It's not the only reason. We have our own thoughts around marriage as a sort of institution. Okay.

All right. So right now, you don't plan to get married, totally fine, and you're committed, you're living together, you're trying to figure out how to combine your finances, but you have this looming thing over your head with the quarter million dollars or so of debt. Okay? What's the solution that you've come up with? So when I look at the debt, we basically broke it out into most of that is public loan that qualifies for the public service loan forgiveness.

So we sort of decided to put that aside and think about the private part of that loan, which is around $56,000. And like Nick upped her contribution to try to sort of get out of that debt faster. And I offered that I would like to contribute to that. So she's contributing like 1700 and I'm starting to contribute 2000 extra. More than her? On top of first, yeah. Okay, I want everyone to think about what you would do

if you're in this situation. It's quite interesting, right? Lots of layers. How would you approach it? We ran some simple calculations. Because there's so many things, there's forbearance, there's different policy changes that may happen, there's a lot of complexity. But when you have a big decision where there's like 50 different things, it's often easy to get paralyzed. Important thing is put all the minor things aside and focus on the two or three big things that matter. So in your case, Nick, you could pay it off at 1500 bucks a month. It'll take you about 13 and a half years. Did you know that?

Yes, I ran some numbers. Oh you did? Yeah. That's awesome. Wow. Okay, great. Pam, you could match Nick's payment. That would take it down to 6.5 great. Pam, you could match Nick's payment. That would take it down to 6.5 years. How do you all feel about that? I feel good. I mean, I really, I wanna get rid of it for her sake, but also like us as a team, so that it's not something that we have to think about.

What about you, Nick? I think that's really nice and generous. Keep going. Is there a but? There's not a but. It's a little bit uncomfortable, uncomfortable accepting help, essentially. Why? Because I've essentially been on my own since I was 18 and worked really hard and pretty

much just told myself I only have myself to count on. And I found myself in a really amazing situation that I have somebody I'm entirely in love with and want to spend my life with is incredible and able to help me and I I'm working on feeling enthusiastic about that. Yeah. Okay. That's pretty interesting. enthusiastic about that. Yeah. Okay.

That's pretty interesting. It's a perfect example of the way we feel about money is not correlated because if we just look at the numbers here, you could basically write a check or certainly pay it off very, very quickly. There are so many layers of this that are subtle and not obvious. Like, for example, the fact that when you get married, it's a contract with each other and with the state, so you know what happens if you separate.

Now, some people choose to do it, some people don't. It's totally fine. You just have to understand the ramifications of what that means. But the other layers I find even more interesting, which are we have a higher earner and a lower earner. And often there are these dynamics that come along with it. Have you noticed the dynamics that happen when one person earns a lot more than the other? I don't think so.

No? Is it all like, how do you all split the money? Well, so I actually followed this from watching some of your content. I proposed to Nick early on in our relationship that we should do proportional things because when we added up our income, I think I brought in like 75% and she brought in 25%. And so I said like, that's how we should treat our expenses. She brought in 25%. And so I said, that's how we should treat our expenses. I'll cover 75% of the things, and then she covers the rest.

That's good, especially when you're in exactly the situation. Makes sense. But I'm going back to your question, Pam, which was, can my partner Nick stop working given my high income? Isn't that the question? Yeah. So how are you all navigating that? We're here.

You want me to just tell you the answer? Yeah, please. No, that's not how it works. That's not why people come to see me. Well, what do you think? What are the ingredients in the decision? Because technically, I guess she could quit. Yeah, that's sort of how I was looking at it. Like when I looked at our numbers together,

I was like, you know, and it doesn't have to be right away or necessarily even like quit 100 percent, but could she reduce her workload? She works in an industry that's very draining. Okay, maybe we should ask her. What do you think? So I originally proposed we do this because it's something that she had sort of remarked on offhandedly a few times. Because I'm incredibly mentally and emotionally drained after work each day, and I end up feeling like I don't have a lot left of myself outside of work. Hearing me talk about this, she's offered up,

well, maybe you don't have to work as much. How long after you bringing up your stressful workplace until you, Pam, suggested maybe you don't need to work there? Like, was it a week or a year? Oh, pretty immediate. Yeah. Big clue. Okay.

So you're like, hey, maybe you shouldn't work or you should cut back down. We have the income, et cetera. Yeah. And I frame them more as like, it's something we should consider. Like as we're considering, like we're thinking about our life, our future together. It's an option. Okay. How decisive are the two of you with money?

Okay. I think that kind of answers my question. Is there a lot of collaboration, let's talk about it versus I think this is what we should do, I think that's what we should do, and we hash it out? Which one is it? I don't think there's a lot of planning. Okay, all right. The reason I am asking these questions is that I see this pattern a lot among couples and I've observed it more with a male hire

earner who's in a heterosexual relationship, and he tells his partner who earns less, sometimes way less, hey, why don't you quit that? You don't need to do it. And we have enough, and it's great. And I wanna take care of you, and I don't want you to be stressed, and you can find something else.

What do you think happens a year, two years, five years, 10 years later? Something bad. That's good. That was a good read of a leading question. a year, two years, five years, ten years later? Something bad. Good. That's a good read of a leading question. It's... What do you think, Nick? What happens? I mean, my natural fear is that there would be some sort of resentment. Yeah, that could be it.

Often it's very disempowering. It's very disempowering for the lower earner. And it actually is done in good faith. Hey, we have the money. If you're stressed every day, cool it off for a while. Chill, find something else, et cetera. But it can be quite disempowering. So in a way, when I see the same pattern,

Nick, I see you nodding your head. What's going on? Yeah, we could. Yeah. Do you see, like right now, it's kind of like, it's a bit funny, but a year or two into it, it's not funny. It's actually quite disempowering. So my suggestion, if I can just be a little bit directive,

is first, I would really rethink the way that you talk about your debt. Because, you know, you use the word ashamed. I don't find it shameful that you took on a lot of debt to get a great job. I think you made a calculated decision. Maybe you spent more than you could have but you're a nurse practitioner you have a great job. I think you should be very proud of that. Okay. And then next I would really encourage you to put more skin in the game for your finances.

So just because, Pam, you earn more, actually think that you should be asking Nick, Nick, what do you think? What's your plan? And Nick, you've got to take the lead. If you want to make a proposal where you say, look, I'd like to pay this debt off, I'm going to pay this much, it would be really nice, although you don't have to if you could contribute X dollars or I'm going to take a vacation or speak to my boss or find a different way of a lifestyle adjustment. But it's got to be you leading it because it's your debt.

And trust me when you do that, the fact that you already ran your numbers is very impressive. Most don't. If you do that, you're going to feel more empowered. You're actually going to be substantively more a part of the financial conversation. And the two of you should always remember, just because one person makes more does not make them more valuable.

So many different ways to contribute to a relationship. But you've both got to be active in it. How does that sound? Great. Okay. So the new theme is teammates. If I can gently suggest the new theme is decisive with money, you can run the numbers, make

a decision. You can always reevaluate it 12 months later, always. If the two of you can do that, I think you'll be very, very successful. All right? All right, can we give it up, Pam and Nick? Thank you. Thank you very much. You know, I really love this conversation with Pam and Nick.

A lot of times money can be a tool that helps us solve problems, but actually that's not the case here. Yes, Pam can write a check and solve one of Nick's debt problems. That's the financial part, but it actually's debt problems. That's the financial part. But it actually wouldn't do anything to solve the psychological part.

It wouldn't help Nick feel any less shame. And in fact, it could be damaging to their relationship because Nick attaches a lot of self-worth to what she can contribute financially. This is a very common dynamic. The higher earner often sees a problem that can theoretically be solved with money and they think, okay, cool, I'll write a check,

make this thing disappear. But that's not actually addressing the root cause, which is that Nick does not feel she is contributing as much because of her earnings compared to her partner. That's where the work is for Nick. If Pam simply waves a magic wand and takes away that debt or tells her you can quit your job,

it won't erase that feeling of being less than for Nick, even though Pam is trying to help. And this is why I love my job. I get to look at the whole picture, the money, the person, the dynamic of the couple. To me, the truth is Nick should be proud. And I think she can get there, but she has to do it with her partner, not because of her partner.

I get a lot of questions from parents on how to have money conversations with kids. I'm going to keep talking about those conversations on this podcast. And I also want to introduce you to a new podcast called Who Smarted? It's one of the top rated educational podcasts for kids and families. Each episode is 15 minutes, perfect length for car rides or meal times. And there are episodes like, what are marshmallows made of?

Or do good luck charms actually work? Each episode takes kids on a fun, fact packed adventure in science, art, and history. Who's Smarted is created by the team behind the national geographic show Brain Games and the Netflix hit Brain Child. You can find Who's Smarted on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. Go ahead, get smarted. Let's get back to the show. You're about to see something I have never done before.

Now, I have one final surprise for you this evening. We have a third couple who volunteered at the very last minute. Here's their profile. The husband is a typical optimizer and the wife is, well, let's just find out. For the first time ever on stage, introducing my wife, Cassandra Satie. Wow. How come you get more applause than I do? I love you. I love you. Love you. Love you. Whoa!

How come you get more applause than I do? Wow. Welcome. Thank you. Hey, everyone. Hey. What's up, Brooklyn? How does it feel to be out here?

It's so cool. It's so cool to see everyone. I'm usually in the audience, so it's cool to be up here. Thank you for being here. Okay, I have some questions because you've never been on stage before. No. And you are highly requested by my entire community. So first question is, what is it like being married to an optimizer?

Good question. I would say now I enjoy it. It took us a while to get here though, because we have different money dials and money languages. And now I have to say I appreciate Ramit's love of a good spreadsheet of running a compound interest calculator for fun. So these are things I love about him. I will say one thing though, that I thought all optimizers were good at Excel.

So I was a little surprised to learn that Ramit did not know some basic formulas, but it's okay. It's okay. You now run the spreadsheets in our family. Thank God for that. I love the good formula. She's so good. Okay.

Wow. I think next up, how did it feel when we started combining our finances? Yeah, for me, it was very nerve wracking and we had a lot of very difficult conversations as well. And now I realize it's because we come from different backgrounds with money, different cultures. We saw our life differently with money in it. And so we had a lot of conversations, easy and hard ones. We talked about the F word, feelings,

a lot, which I love. Wait, tell them what you asked me the other, like two days ago when the book came out as a bestseller. Yeah. So it was announced that his second book is a New York Times bestseller, which is awesome. And so I'm like, babe, how do you feel about this? And he's like, I feel good. I'm like, you can't use a G word. So in our household, you can't use good. Yeah, she said, you're not allowed to use good.

And I was like, oh, oh. And then I wished that we had the wheel of emotions. We got this. Yes, we love this. We used this. Refrigerator. Yeah, literally, we got this from our therapist. And I was like, oh my God.

There's more than two feelings. Yes. All the guys in here take a screen. Look at it, people are taking pictures. You freaking nerds. No, it's good. It's actually really helpful. And had I had that, I would have said,

I would have looked at the happy one. I would have said, I feel joyful like that. Or no, you would have said, I feel joyful like that. Or no, you would have said, I feel happy. That's it. That's a true work in progress. Yes. Okay. Final question. What do you wish you knew back then, like early on in our relationship that you know

now? Yeah, I would say the power of doing individual work on Money Mindset really set us up to have a strong foundation together. So I did a lot of work with reading books. I hired a Money Mindset coach and also coincided when I started my business. So that was awesome. So we did a lot of work individually

and that has really paid off for us in the long term. That is very true. Give it up. You did an amazing amount of work about money psychology and how you felt about it and it showed. It really showed. And then I think you were very clear. You expected me to do a similar amount of work for feelings. Being able to connect on the emotional level, which has, like, it's been amazing. It's been transformative. Yeah, and now our conversations are fun with money.

We can dream together and plan out what we want to do. So it's been awesome. Okay, let's give it up for Cassandra Satie. Wow! Wow. That's too good. Okay, let's give it up for Cassandra Satie. Wow. Wow. That's too good, that was amazing. Love you, love you. Let's give it up, Cassandra.

Was anyone as nervous as me seeing my wife come out on stage? I have to tell you, I was terrified. I'm not kidding. I'm used to getting out on stage in front of lots of people and the lights and it's freezing on stage and the noises, but asking Cassandra to come out made me incredibly nervous.

I was nervous for her. And then she comes out on stage and crushes it. I could not believe it. I knew she would be good, even though I was nervous, but I didn't realize she would be that amazing on stage. And the funniest part is she has no interest in being on stage at all. She came out because I asked her to.

And that is why I love doing what I do. Not only do I get to talk to couples about some of the most intimate things in their relationships, I'm having those same conversations with my wife. We're both talking about how we grew up and what we wanna do with money. And I don't know if we should be spending this much

on that thing. And then she comes out on stage and she gets to share her experience. So I wanna give a huge thank you to my wife, Cassandra. And if you enjoyed seeing her, please leave a thank you in the comments. Remember a lot of this podcast is because of her. Wow.

Let me close with a story that I have never told anyone. I just a few months ago went to my 20th college reunion and I was asked by one of my friends at my table. She said, what has become clear to you since we last met? That's a question I never heard before. Hearing Cassandra out here, it connects for me personally because you can see how far each of us has had to come in order to have a really happy, healthy relationship. And I was sitting out there on the quad at my reunion,

the quad that I used to ride my bike to get to class every day for five years. And I flashed back to 18-year-old Ramit, 18-year-old Ramit who thought that success was about thought that success was about getting good grades and getting a good job. And he truly believed if you get the right pedigree, then you will be happy. That's not what I told my friend. That's not the answer I gave her. I really thought about it. And I said, you know, the most valuable thing that I have done in the last 20 years was to connect to my softer side, to connect with my feelings.

And that meant becoming a better listener, becoming more compassionate with others, more compassionate with myself. And if you have followed along on my work for many years, you will see that. That actually shows you how big of a difference it can make when you truly turn the page on your identity. The old you won't even recognize who the new you has become. And I couldn't have done that transformation alone. I had friends, family and especially my amazing wife who encouraged me to connect on a much deeper level.

And that's one of the reasons that I talk about this stuff so much with money. It's not just about fiddling around with a spreadsheet. It's really about the total transformation of the way you look at money and feel about money. And I get to do that together with her because she has given me a new lens to view the world through. It's bigger, richer, more fun. And I will always remember that

very special day with her. We were checking out of a hotel. I had gone to the parking lot to get the car and I drove the car around to pick her up and the valet saw me and he took one look at me and He took one look at my car Honda Accord four-door LX v6 he looks back at me and he says uber drivers pull over there And I realized no matter how much money you have, the best and most priceless thing is to keep that sense of humor. I just hope Cass gives me a five star review in life. I appreciate you coming here. My best wish is that you

share what you have learned with everyone you love. Thank you, New York. Thank you. You know, for me, the most important thing I want you to take away from this podcast is that your rich life is yours. It's not mine, it's not anybody else's, it's for you. If you want a beautiful car or a beautiful coat and you can afford it, fantastic. If you wanna travel, if you wanna pick your kids up from school every afternoon, amazing. You decide what your rich life is. Now I hope you can tell, I love doing these shows.

I love them. Being able to speak to couples in front of an audience, seeing the audience's reaction and going to different cities and hearing from you. I wanna remind everyone how brave it is for these couples to come out on stage and talk about such an intimate topic. Antonio and Devante, Pam and Nick, thank you for sharing your stories

and thank you to everyone for watching and listening to this podcast. Now let's check out their followups. First is Antonio and Devontae. So after I sit down with you, we decided to take a look at our finances and also just to make some decisions and make some changes. So currently I no longer have 100 suits.

I'm down to 10 suits now. So I gave some away and I sold some. And so with the money that I got from selling the suits, we decided to use that to pay off our debt, got rid of that debt. So that was one of the big financial decisions that we decided to make. That was a big emotional purchase for us. So to clear it, it felt good in a sense. And then we also reduced the suits. But then we just also had more positive outlook on our inter-situation knowing that it has so much potential to be so much more in the future.

We stay on this path and stay focused. And we also check in less now. We're checking on my money on a monthly basis as of right now. And it's been so much less stressful in a sense. It was a great experience and we're glad we got to talk to you and you got to give us that reassurance that we're on the right path and that we're doing good and also to not be so down about our finances and actually, you know, have a positive outlook.

So we really appreciate you and thank you for that. Thank you so much. The biggest surprise for me was seeing that as the higher earner in our relationship, my instinct to offer to cover most of our expenses could actually be leaving Nick feeling disempowered. So a key takeaway for me has definitely been that I need to step back and let her share

the lead on our money decisions. One of the key changes we've made is scheduling monthly money reviews. We actually just had our January review and it was really awesome. We pulled up Rameet's list of money dials and we talked about which dials were important to each of us and we shared examples of what we love spending on and called out which things weren't a priority to us.

That really helped us to agree on a specific amount for our shared guilt-free spending. And now that we know that amount, it has allowed each of us to be creative and brainstorm ways to use it. Another key change is that we're having more future-focused conversations. So we're talking about financial, legal,

healthcare protections that we want to have for our relationship. And we've actually set a goal to get those documents drafted this month. Ramit pointed out that we have previously struggled with being decisive. So that's something we're definitely working on. I just want to say thank you to Ramit and the entire team for all of the thoughtful advice. Volvo has been really avoided when it comes to money, but I didn't recognize how that was translating into my relationship with Pam.

And we pride ourselves on functioning as a team. In not being an active participant when it came to our shared numbers, I was really leaving her on her own to take the lead, and I was mostly just feeling lucky to be there. I'm fully engaged, often initiating discussions myself, and that's really provided fruitful opportunities to collaborate and dream towards building our rich life. The major sources of financial stress and really shame were my student loans and feeling behind in my retirement savings. I've increased my contributions to my employer retirement account from 6 to 16

percent and so I'll be maxing that out this year. For my loans, I created a plan to pay off my private student loan before the end of the year while my federal loan is in deferment. And since that loan qualifies for public service loan forgiveness, it will be eligible for forgiveness after 75 more payments, which means I would be debt free in a little over seven years. So there have been so many small but decisive changes made since we began this process, and they all add up to me feeling a lot more confident, which is not something that I ever thought

I could feel about money, and also really optimistic about our future. Hi, I'm Paul Havershoot, host of The Cost of Living. It's a show about money and how it shapes our lives. In big ways, like why inflation could get worse if we all make more money. Here's the hard truth in all of this. Workers are gonna have to eat that real wage loss. And small ways, like what's the fastest way to order fast food? That first big pack that comes out of the kitchen is going to the drive-thru.

Check out The Cost of Living. We're on CBC Listen or wherever you get podcasts.