I Will Teach You To Be Rich - 229.  “I’m almost 50 and have nothing to show for my life”

Episode Date: October 7, 2025

Christine (47) and Thad (57) have been together for more than six years, but instead of building wealth, they’re buried under nearly $340,000 of debt. Christine, the self-appointed “CFO,” is exhausted from tracking every bill, while Thad avoids the details and spends freely. Their conflicting money mindsets (Christine craving stability, Thad living for the moment) have stalled their big dreams like buying a home or taking Rich Life vacations that Christine longs for. With almost no savings and retirement looming, Christine fears she’s approaching 50 with nothing to show for her hard work, while Thad insists a single plan will solve everything. Can Ramit help them break the cycle of avoidance and control, align their priorities, and finally start acting like teammates? In this episode we uncover: • Why Christine feels she’s approaching 50 with “nothing to show” for her life • Thad’s $17,000 student loan that ballooned up to $125,000 • How Christine became the household “CFO” while Thad continues to avoid responsibility • Their real numbers—and why Christine feels so stressed • Christine’s frustration over micromanaging bills • Thad’s upbringing in poverty • The invisible power of shame and fear, and why they can’t see what’s right in front of them financially • Christine’s childhood lessons from parents who bought an unaffordable home • Thad’s stark admission: if nothing changes, he’ll be homeless Chapters: (00:00:00) When a worrier and an avoider meet… (00:02:59) “We have a plan… don’t we?” (00:15:52) “Where is all the money going?” (00:19:54) Ramit breaks down their numbers (00:33:46) “I never expected to live past 30” (00:48:30) “I wish my dad was able to say no” (00:56:33) “I don’t believe he’ll follow through” (01:05:11) “We need to be playing way bigger” (01:22:38) “I don’t feel like I have the power” (01:36:54) Where are they now? Christine and Thad’s follow-ups This episode is brought to you by: Doola | Go to https://doola.com.ramit and use code RAMIT for 10% off LLC formation and bookkeeping. Gelt | Book a tax consultation with Gelt at https://joingelt.com/ramit. As a member of my community, you can skip the waitlist. DeleteMe | If you want to get your personal information removed from the web, go to https://joindeleteme.com/ramit for 20% off. Masterclass | For unlimited access to every class and 15% off an annual membership, go to https://masterclass.com/ramit Netsuite | Download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning at https://netsuite.com/ramit Connect with Ramit • Get my new book, Money For Couples • Get Money Coaching with Ramit • Download the Conscious Spending Plan • Listen to my book—now on Audible • Get my New York Times best-selling book • Get my no-numbers journal • Other episodes • Instagram • Twitter • YouTube If you and your partner have a money issue and you want my help, I occasionally select a couple to work with, free of charge. Apply for my help here.

Okay, listen up. The schedule for the rest of my 2025 money coaching calls is out, and we have an awesome lineup. On every call, I do a live breakdown of conscious spending plans, plus I answer members' questions. So if you've been waiting to ask me a question about your finances, this is your chance. Members also get access to the library of all past calls, plus our supportive money coaching community and bonus course content that I don't post anywhere else. If you've been looking for a sign to join my money coaching program, this is it. Check out IWT.com slash money coaching to join right now. That's IWT.com slash money coaching to join right now. I worry about our lack of retirement accounts and I worry about our lack of savings. Since my savings

account is at $101. We know I'm not saving. I owe $125,000 to student loans on $17,000 principle. The rest is interest. We have been planning stuff or making it plan. Dad, you don't have a plan. I'm 57 years old. I'm only now on this point getting my finances and my stuff in order in life. I ask him the same thing why he gets cash out, and I think it's so he can hide his spending so that it can't be tracked.

Every dollar I have goes to this household, except for the money that I would waste it. This is not fair. You're not even married. I'm going to be 50 years old in three years, and it feels like I have nothing to show for my whole life. Is it too late? What if you didn't start saving or investing when you were in your 20s or 30s? Today, we're about to get a look into this pressing question for tens of millions of Americans. In today's episode, I speak with Christine and Thad.

She's 47, he's 57, and they do not have nearly enough money saved or invested to retire on time. Each have six-figure loans, which creates a toxic mix of frustration and complacency and even hopelessness. not married despite being together for over six years, largely because they're afraid marriage would impact their debt payments. Watch as we unpeel layers of psychological fascinations, especially when we see how their psychology affects their numbers. I'm about to preview a few items from Christine and Thad's Conscious Spending Plan, which breaks down their net worth, income, and where they spend their money. You can download and create your own conscious spending plan or CSP at IWT.com slash CSP.

Assets, zero dollars. Investments, $136,496, $496, savings, $2,612, debt, $339,000 for a total net worth of negative $199,000. Their combined income is $167,625. Now, this CSP is going to reveal a lot more in the cost of $1,99,000. the episode. But first, tell me in the comments, when did you start first managing your money in a serious way? What age? Why did you start then? And if you haven't yet started, that's okay too. I want to hear from you. Okay, now let's get into it with Christine and Thad. I want to give a shout out to our new Spotify viewers and listeners where we recently started

releasing each Spotify episode in video format. And I love seeing all of our new viewers coming in and watching these episodes with real people sharing real numbers from behind closed doors. Big thank you to Spotify for your partnership. If you already listen on Spotify, click over to video. There is nothing like catching these subtle moments and facial expressions that you can't catch with audio alone. I understand you've been together for over six years. You've been living together for most of that time. And you have spent that entire time in debt.

Yes, because I've spent my entire life in debt. Got it. But also my fixed costs are very high. So there isn't also a whole lot I can do about it. My half of the, you know, just living expenses are most of my paycheck. Since we've been together, I don't think we've occurred any debt. We have both brought debt into the relationship through, you know, our big debts. But once we started getting together and once we moved in together, right, then at that point, we were matching bill for

bill. Anything over that, I didn't save. What do you mean? You were matching, what does that mean? So, like, when we moved in together, we would split the rent. I would pay my half, she'd pay her half, you know, when we first started together. There was employment issues, so we've, like, one person has made more than the other a little bit, and it's gone back and forth, but it's also gone up over that course of the time. So over that course of time, we've been working together on the finances. And we really haven't acquired much, any debt in the six years. Has it gotten better or worse in six years? It's gotten better. okay that's good meaning you've paid off debt well i think yes and no so we're responsible for

like our own debts right now so i do have credit card debt and i've paid it down but it's not going fast but um like for example we have actually accumulated some debt but it's all been in the service of like paying down previous debts i'm just going to throw you under the bus that he got a master's agree and didn't finish paying the last bit of his tuition But we needed his transcript and they wouldn't release it without paying the last bit of tuition, which was like $3,500 or something crazy. So we had to get a personal loan from our credit union in order to pay it because who has $3,500 just laying around. Has what the two of you have been doing with money been working? No.

No. Okay. Because I'm confused because we've only been talking a few minutes and I have gotten multiple contradictory answers. Do you have debt? Yeah, we haven't, well, we haven't accumulated any, but actually we have accumulated some. Is it getting better? It's getting better, but it's also getting worse. Mm-hmm.

I'm wondering what the pattern of your answers reveals. Well, I think that Thad often likes to put a very positive spin on things. Yes, I do, I do. I can tell you the big element that, you know, contribute in it. Like, I'll just figure it out myself, whatever we need. so that sort of avoider avoider or yeah like try to do myself and then you know

with that you're 57 years old I mean I feel like if it was going to work it would have worked I feel that like I understand the problem I think that I'm doing the best that I can I'm addressing every issue of the problem what does that mean specifically like we're doing everything that we should be doing but you're doing it right now Thad

you're you're presenting a positive spin like oh it's good for the last few years? No, it's still crap. They're so bad, but, like, I'm learning. I've learned, you know, as where, you know, like, I open mail now as before I never opened mail. So that's a step. You know, that's a step up.

So we talk about this a lot, our dynamic between that, you know. I feel that I attempt to. I'm trying, right? I'm willing. You're not trying right now in this very answer. I don't know. I'm getting lost. you guys get lost when you talk about money right is that yes yeah that's what i'm trying to tell

you we don't really have a fight about money because mostly i'm just managing it all and i'm saying do this and it's not getting done okay let's talk about that yeah that's our big fight right there you know like we talk about money on sundays we talk about money a lot we're doing it now like right right now we are always talking about money and i'm there so you know and your opinion is we are really not talking about money that much. And like, we are set to have reoccurring conversations on Sundays during our set aside date time. And it doesn't happen on most Sundays. I guess it's so frustrating because the money is like what we need to deal with. We can't be fighting about the stuff that we can't control. And we are talking about it and we are doing it together. Except that we can

control these things and we're just not because we're not talking about them. But we happen to be talking about it right now. We're talking about it right now. Can we do this? I'm actually going to, I'm going to flip the script. You've clearly thought about it. So I'm actually going to turn it over to you. Oh, geez. What do you think is the problem and what do you think is the solution? I'm a warrior and he's an avoider. And so I worry a lot about our finances and I worry about our lack of retirement accounts and I worry about our lack of savings. And he, is an avoider, although, I mean, true to what he's saying, he is getting better, but it still is like, why is this mail unopened? Recently, a medical bill sat on our counter for $50, sat there

for, I don't even know how long, two weeks or something, until it got past due. And only then was like, look, like, look, we just pay it. And he logged in it and it was paid in three seconds flat, you know, and I was just so irritated. That's like a really common, I think, example. of how it goes. Then our normal conversation comes up on Sunday and he'll say, well, we already talked about money during the week. We've already had our conversation. I asked you to describe the problem and then tell me what you think the solution is.

Oh, the solution. Seems you got a bit lost in the story because we didn't get to the solution. What do you notice about my question and your response? That I'm both frustrated and I don't know the solution? Do you think your problem is a $50 medical bill on the? a counter? No, I don't. I think that's probably a symptom of something much larger. I noticed that you are a crier. I know. You're crying now. Why is that? Because I just find it so frustrating. Okay. What part do you find frustrating? I'm going to be 50 years old in three years,

and it feels like I have nothing to show for my whole life. I can't get myself together enough, And neither can that, it feels like we just keep doing the same thing where I have to micromanage all of our finances. Yeah. And that part can be really frustrating because I'm trying to get my own stuff together too. I'm trying to pay down my debt so that we can save more. And I'm trying to put some extra money aside and stuff, but it's not possible. And then I have to micromanage his finances on top of mine. And that can be very challenging.

Sounds like a lot on your shoulders. Can I suggest a different approach? sure you jumping in to solve the problems is actually part of the problem and you're even doing it with me okay when i mentioned that she wants to control things it turns to do a fight she won't or not admit but she feels like she doesn't control so we'll have a big fight if i'm saying if i mention control or that i'll i'll stipulate and i i will be willing to go on on a limb that christine will agree that maybe she sometimes has the need to be in control. Christine, would you agree with that? Yes. When we feel out of control, we will often try to control the smallest things to give us a sense of

control in an otherwise uncontrollable world. Christine, how is this striking you? I think it's what that says all the time. I just try to control things. Yeah. Take your time. I want to jump in here because what Christine is feeling is is a massive clue. Have you noticed how she communicates? It's frantic, and I would describe it as controlling. Even here, on this show, she seems to try to take over the room. Now, that might seem odd until you realize what this moment means for my guests. To get here, they've gone through months of prep, applications, calls, filling out a CSP, AV checks, all kinds of stuff. They've carved out times from their lives. So for them, this is not just a casual Zoom call. To a lot of guests,

they see this as their one shot. So when someone like Christine tries to steer the entire conversation, it's not random. It's kind of like walking into a surgeon's office and then telling them how to operate. So I flipped it. I handed her the reins. Okay, Christine, you tell me what the problem is and then tell me what the solution is. And did you see what happened? She floundered. She brought up an unpaid bill, then jumped straight to, I'm going to be 50 and have nothing to show for my life. That's not a very satisfying answer, especially from someone who wanted to run this conversation. And I'm reminded of this classic psychology experiment called the invisible gorilla test. People were shown a video of players passing a basketball and asked to count how many times the ball is passed.

Now, while they are watching these players pass the ball, a person in a gorilla suit walks directly through the entire scene. But half of the people watching this never even notice the gorilla. Their attention is so locked in that they miss what is obviously in front of their face. And that's what's happening here. She's so caught up in her story,

her fear, her need for control that I'm not sure she can see what's right in front of her. And this happens to a lot of us, which is why it is so helpful to get a third party to talk to. If you find yourself stuck repeating the same painful story over and over,

ask yourself a few questions. If this were happening to someone else, what would I say? When I react the way that I've been reacting for so long, am I actually solving anything? Am I trying to control this outcome? Why? And finally, what am I not seeing? Everyone has an invisible gorilla in our lives. Sometimes it takes someone else to point it out. When you start a business, it can feel like you are a one-person army. You've got to build the website, figure out taxes, write the copy, design the logo, make sure you're actually getting customers. Oh, and don't mess it up. Otherwise, the IRS will come knocking. No, just because you're the founder doesn't mean you have to be doing everything yourself. That's why services like

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to take control of your tax plan head to join geltcom slash remit to book a consultation And as a member of my community, you get to skip the wait list. Again, that's join gelt.com slash remit. Join geltt.com slash remit. Taxes don't have to be a task. With gelt, they can be a tool to build wealth. But, Thad, what about you? The problem is what in one sentence?

Communication. What's the solution? Clear communication. You know? Why does she have to ask you to pay the bills, your own bills? well those are my poor life skills I'm 57 years old and I'm only now on this point getting my finances and my stuff in order in life can I ask that the question again what is the problem and what is the solution in two sentences please the problem is

lack of clear communication between the two of us and trust in each other how do we do it by going on a podcast I'm learning how to do it I mean you know Like, what I'm responsive to the things that we, you know, coming up with planning and enacting them. Paying, you know, not just paying bills, but, you know, you know. No. I think I'm doing this stuff. Like, what am I not doing that I need to do better, you know? Like.

Okay, so that's a problem. Yeah. Thad thinks he's doing everything that he can. Christine, do you agree or disagree with that? I disagree. How does that strike both of you, that you may not, even understand the problem, much less the solution. Well, I do think that is the problem.

That you don't understand the problem? I guess, yes. Like we have been working together lock, stock, and barrel as far as what our objectives are and how we achieve those. Like, we have been planning stuff, and we're making a plan going forward. According to you, you have a plan and it's working. Christina, you think we have a plan and it's working, albeit not fast, enough. I think we have a loose plan, but we have no clear idea how to get there, and we're

clearly not there. What about the debt? The only debt that I have is by student loans. What's a debt payoff date? I mean, never. I mean, who knows? That's what we're here for. And what about retirement? How much do you need for retirement? I have nothing in retirement. How much do you need for retirement? Oh, I have no idea. How about how much do you need for an emergency fund? We talk about having like $400 minimum rights so we can get like a rug or this or that or things like that? No, that's not an emergency fund.

Thad, you don't have a plan. Okay. Guys, I really want to help you, but it's going to be very difficult if you're not ready to learn. You obviously have some serious financial challenges because you're in your 50s, 40s and 50s,

as you put it, broke, don't know anything about how much you need for retirement, and I want to help, but I can't help unless you are willing to accept the help. Trust me, you do not just need a budget. And trust me, you do not just need a plan, the some magic plan that I'll come up with, because if you needed that, you would have done it yourself. There's something much deeper going on here, but what I need from you is to accept that you need help. And right now, it feels like every time I ask a question, you're both resisting me and telling me why actually it's not that bad.

explain why I'm pushing them so hard right now. Christine and Thad are living in an alternative financial reality, and they don't even know it. They are in dire danger. But instead of acknowledging it, they're minimizing and justifying and spinning. They can't even answer basic questions like, what's the problem? Or how much do you need to retire? But they're confident, confident and wrong. And that's a very dangerous combination, especially when you are older. It's like their house is burning down and they're arguing about the paint color in the hallway. You can probably hear it in my voice too. I'm getting less patient because I want them to take advantage of this opportunity and make a change. But first, they have to recognize that there's a major problem. Obviously,

it's not working so far. So my job now is to play detective and find the angle that might have a chance of resonating with them. Let me try. Okay, I'm going to ask Thad to read off this first box that can you read off the word in bold and then the number in full next to it for this entire box please assets zero investments a hundred and thirty six thousand four hundred and ninety six dollars savings is two thousand six hundred and twelve dollars debt is a total of three hundred and thirty nine thousand dollars and the total net worth is a negative one hundred and ninety $39,000. All right.

What do you both think of those numbers? The numbers in the surprise me because I had an idea what they were. Looking at them is surprising because, you know, it's not, it's such a high negative number. Okay. Christine, what about you?

We have a combined, like, quarter million dollars in student loans. I mean, if you were to, like, pull that out because I don't think either of us will ever get our student loans paid out. Even before we die, I've been out of college 25 years, and I so, oh, $180,000. I'm never paying those off

even if I tried really, really hard and put everything into it. So it kind of feels like those two things are those two student loans are on our back burner a little bit. Like I'll pay the minimum and get that monthly payment made, but I'm not making any efforts to pay it off

because I just won't get to $180,000 before I die, I think. But so if you pulled those out, I think our numbers are like exactly what I thought they were. and it's not great. It's not a great picture, that's for sure. What does that mean?

It's not great. I'm not surprised that our assets were zero. We have no car and we have no house and we have no business. So I do which our savings was higher for sure. That's not even enough for an emergency fund. You know what I mean? Now, you two are not married, but for the purposes of the CSP, we combine the numbers just for easy math.

Right. If we break those numbers apart, the $136,000 in investments, is that, Christine? Yeah, I think my part of it is something like $127,000, no, $129,000 was mine. And of the savings, $2612? Oh, I only have about $150 in savings. And then the debt, $339,000, how's that broken out? It's, like I said, it's primarily our student loans. He has about $120,000.

I have $180,000. Let's look at the income. Christine, can you read off your combined gross monthly income, please? I can. It is $13,969. If we combine your income just for easy math, then your household makes $167,625 per year. Did you know that? Yes. We did. Which is why it surprises us that we're in such financial straits. It has, I guess. Hold on, hold on, hold. You all are about to start going off into Storyland. Just answer my question. Did you know that you make $167,000 a year combined? Yes. Yes. Yeah. That's interesting because Christine, you told me at the beginning of this call, I'm broke and I don't make any money. I don't, because only part of that's mine. Only $67,000 of it is mine. That doesn't sound broke to me. Yeah, it sure doesn't, but I don't ever seem to have any money.

You make $70,000 a year. Not quite, but yeah. Wow. Even, I'm sorry, 69,465 dollars. You make that much? I think I make only like 67,000, which does make a difference. Even in my example, you can't allow an approximation. You have to make sure that I know it's less. Why? Why? What does that get you? I don't know. Some sympathy, I think. It doesn't work for me. You're not getting any sympathy right now. The people listening to this podcast will feel bad for me. Because they know how little it is. I don't think so, Christine. Believe me, I'm way under the average for a person in Arlington. Would you consider $167,000 a lot of money? Not a lot. What do you think? A lot.

I mean, it's a lot. Okay. Christine? Yeah. I'd say it's pretty much a lot. Yeah, that part of it is a little like, why do we feel pinched, although I can look at the numbers and kind of guess where the problems are. All right. Let's do the rest.

Let's look at the fixed costs here. Hold on. Wow, I'm surprised. Fixed costs are at 61%. I would not have expected that the way that the two of you talk about money. Well, right, but you can see the personal breakdowns of the fixed costs where I showed her about 80% and his is only about 50% of his income because we're paying exactly half of everything. Yeah, that's a major problem. So I feel very stressed. Let me explain what I'm seeing here. Christine is paying 78% of her take home pay to fixed costs while Thad is paying 50% towards fixed costs. So considering that Christine is making a lot less than Thad,

she's still paying 50% of their rent. Okay. So we're going to talk about that, fixed costs, but let's just go through the rest of it. Investments, zero. Savings, what? 3% combined, but I want to point out, they're saving $175 for vacations,

$100 for a sewing and improv class, but zero dollars for an emergency fund. Yes, but don't explain. Don't explain it. Okay, I won't. We're just looking at the numbers. Okay, there. 36% combined for guilt-free spending.

Christine's guilt-free spending is 17%. Thad's guilt-free spending, 49%. So that is spending essentially half of his take-home pay on guilt-free spending. What does that guilt-free spending money go towards? It's nothing in particular. It's a nickel-and-dine kind of situation. food just wasteful spending um i don't know oh well i do have a daughter and so some of that goes towards that like her teeth and dentist and the costs for like school clothes and uh shoes and

okay well let's talk about that then dad take us through your spending um suffice to say uh no no no i don't want suffice it i want to know what you're spending on clothes shoes food and that's it all right how much are you spending on clothes a hundred dollars a month okay that's the first thing you're mentioning to me clothes is a hundred dollars a month you're spending is that right no 40 bucks a month oh it went down at most what's all that stuff in the background of the videos that i see what's your background uh those are the board games hobby oh how much did all those cost you're your interest that one just you know a lot, but we haven't purchased any new games in the last, like, three years.

We're doing the numbers, though. We have cut that off. You guys ready to give me a real answer instead of trying to deflect? It's 20 years worth of stuff, right? I mean, I don't know. $10,000? $10,000? I have no idea in truth.

I don't know. It could be $5,000. Yeah, $5,000 is a better number. $5,000. Because it's about $40,000. It's about $5,000. Okay. Five to $10,000 on games.

What else are you spending your money am? I'm wasting it, that's all. Like, you're not spent. On what? Food, cigars. How much on cigars? $15 every two days. So $30 a week.

You better redo that math. $15 every two days is not $30 a week. About three times, yeah. It's about $30, 40 bucks a week. on cigars, honestly. How much is that per month? Let's say $200. $200, all right, fine.

Food? $300. $300 on food? Okay. What do you spend that money on? Eating out at school, eating out at different times. Eating out at school, and what was the other one? Like, I'm a teacher, and so I got for lunches about $12, like a sandwich and a drink and chips.

Tax? Tip? $15. Oh. Yes. No, of course, tip. Of course, I was waiting for many, many years. Yes, I do tip. So let's say 20 bucks. How about 20 bucks? Do you notice what just happened? You said 12 bucks. The real answer is probably 20 or maybe even more. Right. People who are ashamed of money and who are in debt, they will often use ranges. They'll say something like, oh, it's like 12 to 15. It's actually more like 20. And they feel very, very uncomfortable being honest. with how much it is. They always err on the side of less than they are actually spent.

Yeah, I do. I do. You do? Yes. All right, so how much you spend per month on eating up? When I say, 300 bucks, 30 bucks. Do you have it on your credit card? I do not. Where do you spend

the money? I get cash. Why? It's just old habit. I don't know. I don't believe that. Because sometimes I'll lose the card, you know, like in last couple years I've lost the card. I don't use it, you know. What the fuck is going on right now? This is not believable to me.

Right. Well, I ask him the same thing why he gets cash out. And I think it's so he can hide his spending so that it can't be trapped. I just don't believe it. I don't believe that you only spend $300 a month on eating out. I don't believe that you only spend $40 a month on clothes. The way you're presenting it, oh, me, me, innocent dough, I don't know where the money is going. You keep telling me, on one hand, I'm spending a bunch of money, and I'm like trying to

figure out where, because it's almost $3,000 per month. How are we getting to $3,000? Okay, to be, can I say be fair one thing? No, I just want to know the numbers. Where are you getting to $3,000 a month? I can't help you unless you tell me accurate numbers. The numbers you are telling me are not adding up. that's that's it all right hey can we take a little break for a second sure i'm going to be really

honest when thad asked for a break i thought he was about to shut this whole thing down and leave this is a very intimidating environment for my guests they go through a lot of steps to get here their cameras they're meeting me for the first time and they are talking about one of the most intimate topics there is naturally it feels really uncomfortable but i think the discomfort goes deeper than being on a recorded video. With a lot of couples, you'll notice the long pauses, often the over-explaining. And sometimes the same phrases that they've been using with each other for years and years, which suddenly fall flat when there's a third party involved. But then, to my surprise, Thad didn't leave. Watch what happens. There's this new chat GPT agent feature that I'm

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where's the money going? Well, I had a little discussion and thought about it and sort of broke it down, and I think a lot of it was going to sort of going out and sort of drinking and maybe hanging out with friends and partying and wasting money in that sort of line-like kind of situation.

How much? Whatever was left. I mean, I'm being honest with you. I appreciate it. I said this in the beginning. If I have money in my pocket, I'm spending it. You know, as long as I pay my rent and my food and the bills I got to pay and I'm meeting my obligation and a relationship, then everything else is mine. Dad, did you grow up poor?

I grew up very, very poor. Yeah. What you just said is very typical of people who grew up poor. I know that we over talk, but like, again, these are issues that we've talked about and they've been walking with for years. Maybe I'm a little vague or that, but they are, I understand the relationship. between my money and how it was taught and raised and how the habits I have now. And it's been a very long struggle to break those. And the difference between self-awareness and action is a mile apart.

You know, it's hard to be completely open and honest when you can't be completely open and honest. You know, and about the drinking and the alcohol and, you know, and Christine and I have been talking about switching from living in the moment and having fun in the moment. which I will always do, right, as opposed to putting money aside and saving it for the future, right, that has always been a balance, you know, and the latter has never been something that's been I thought about. And, you know, now I realize I'm going to reach retirement age. One way or another, I need to be prepared or not, you know, that's why I'm willing to be as honest as I can with here. I appreciate the honesty. Without you sharing this,

the rest of the picture is incomplete. It actually doesn't make any sense. I know, and I knew that. I'm so sorry, because I was trying to fix the problem without telling you guys the whole truth. I appreciate that. And I would say the one thing that I was embarrassed about coming on the show for it

was that I owe $125,000 to student loans on $17,000 principle. The rest is interest because it just ignored it for 20 years. And you're like, if such a minor thing you know at this stage like I could pay that you know but to have $17,000 balloon into 120 you're like but isn't there some relief in being able to just shine a light on our deepest shame just to say like yeah I didn't know and also I was negligent and

irresponsible and here I am what's done is done I'm coming here because I want to understand and why I behave the way I do. It's not okay anymore. I can tell my wife is not okay with that anymore. She's been crying for almost an hour. And I want something better for the next chapter of my life. So I put myself in your hands. Show me some ways to get there.

That's how I approach this. Like you tell me you have, you know, struggles with alcohol and student debt. Okay. Everybody's got struggles. I appreciate the honesty. I hope you can see. I'm not here to judge.

It brings that fuller light. And now we can really start to talk about what is truly going on here and what can we do about it. So thank you. I was surprised to hear he was keeping a secret. And I don't mind secrets. I don't even mind being lied to on this show.

It's part of my job. But usually people tell me the truth about the broad strokes. What I think we can see here is the powerful grip of shame. Like, you and I can deal with being angry or sad or even resentful. But shame is a very, very powerful emotion. It's often like emotional quicksand.

When we feel ashamed, it's difficult to even talk about it, much less come up with a solution. That's why it's so important to get help. I also want to point out that I'm very sensitive to addiction issues. It's not my place to ask anything here, nor am I qualified to. I don't know if he spent $1,500 or $150,000 on drinking in the last 10 years. I heard him, I acknowledged it, I filed it away, and moved on. What matters is that he admitted it, and now we can move on to what's next.

Because if he wants any shot at building a real financial future, this is where it's going to start. What do you remember your family saying about money? Well, it was an active situation. My mom was a single mother for a long time. It was really bad at money. at a very young age I realized that at the end of the week

it was going to be gone I'll tell you we would chase checks we'd buy food spend the money go to a movie and then for that entire week have to go to the grocery store to get cash and put in the bank to cover the check from the previous day

she would chase a check all week right and I realized we're sacrificing a moment of play on a Sunday to have fun, but I see, you know, we don't have the money for it and we're doing a lot of work to cover that. How did you know you were poor? I knew I was poor because of friends and like expensive life. So like I was babysitting, you know, and I'd see how other people lived. I also, my mom had a whole set of friends and around eight or nine, you know, they kind of said, hey, you have

to start taking care of your kids more, your daughter, your son more, you know, be more responsible. So it was an ongoing kind of narrative throughout, you know, our neighborhood. You know, like even in our very poor neighborhood, my house was the dirtiest of all the houses, you know. And I could never in my entire life have people over for, never had friends over, you know, never had girlfriends over, you know. Right. I have to hide that kind of shame and, you know. And I will say the biggest thing that impacts me that I think impacts me the most is at the end of my grandmother's life, she had a whole interneets. It was just an ugly scene to watch that play out. My mom, who's resentment for her whole life, doesn't want to spend a dime because it's detracting from her

inheritance, not telling people things, you know, and like, I think in the end, grandma passed, and she had like all this money and didn't reveal it. And I did what I did when I was a kid. I said, you know what, buy me a PlayStation 2 and I'm gone. It's all I want. You have $200,000. What did your mom do? with the $200,000? I mean, look, it's just she would buy

$1,000 chairs. Like, we had these four chairs that are $1,000 each. And look, we had a house that had dog poop in the kitchen, you know? And I'm like,

you're going to buy chairs that cost $4,000 to put them in a house that has dog poop in it. It's that God's size hole that you fill with things, you know, never gets filled.

But, you know, she just kept spending and spending and spending, trying to fill it, you know. Do you see any similarities with your mom spending and your spending? I mean, exactly. I mean, I've lived parallel lives, you know, and that's why I'm here. At each station in my life, I would look at, like, where my mom was, you know, and see the mistakes that I've done that I'm falling in her path there.

And, like, I don't want to go that path, but my path, there's no other option out there, you know, even if we sit down here today and come up and I understand when a plan is and we have a budget and I'm willing to work at all, you know, there's just the amount time between now and then. Yeah? What lessons do you think you took away from your childhood as it relates to money? I don't value it much. It comes, it goes.

I waste it. I spend it. I drop it. So you spend it, you waste it, you enjoy it, and... Go get more. You know, that's it. Right. Basically, no big deal.

Yeah. I think that's a pretty accurate lesson that you took away from your child. I mean, look at your mom. Yeah. She would spend it, check, check. do all this stuff and if we take an honest look at her situation right now, sexually, okay.

I also, I would tell you, my childhood I took away is I never expected to live past the age of 30, right? Your dad died at 30? My dad was never in the picture. No one in my family that I know died at 30. I just know that everyone died. It was just an arbitrary number, like,

in my neighborhood, just many, many people died. Why they all die? Like in the 80s, like a lot of drugs, like crack hit our neighborhood. Where did you grow up? Pittsburgh. Okay. Yeah. Wow. You know, I went to college and I came back and it was devastated by that. Mm-hmm. Yeah, epidemic. But even prior to that, like, not having, you know, a community where, you know, dads weren't present. You know, the family structure wasn't there. You know, understanding that it existed, we just didn't have it. This is really opening my eyes to, to your, you today with money when you take me back. And I think it's a gift you're giving me.

A lot of people cannot imagine what it is like to grow up in a neighborhood where you just don't see a lot of older men. They're just not around. You know, how many people from the time you were young to the time you were 30 do you know in your neighborhood that died? I literally was telling my daughter about this, you know, about this because, you know, I'm raising her and she's a teenager. And I was going over and I think that two-thirds of the people I grew up, if not 85% of them are, dead or, like, in prison, but, like, yeah, I want to see that I know made it out of there. I think it seems somewhat apparent, like, why he has the, you know, takes the actions he takes, I guess spends the money and doesn't save it.

I, too, did not have a good role model for that, and you can see where it's gotten me. I can appreciate when he's growing up with a single mom in a poor neighborhood. You know, if people around him are not living to an old age, why would you prepare for that? It's, you know, I've known these mistakes, like living with this and battling this lack of money, you know, my entire life. And, you know, I've made some strides, but just when you're aware of it, it's, you know, that makes it frustrating, you know. And I have to break that habit of if I have it in my pocket, then I can spend it. Or what? Or I'll continue to be in debt.

Have you ever thought about it? Like, really thought about it. If I keep going on the path that I'm going on, I'm already in my life. late 50s. I am homeless under a bridge. Are you being for real? I'm being 100% honest. I would be homeless under bridge,

still trying to do stand-up comedy at the age of 70. And I'm a dreamer, so I still think for some reason, I'm going to make it big somehow. My jaw was on the floor listening to that. It's one thing to hear someone say that they grew up poor. It's another thing to hear the vivid details of what that really means. like never inviting a friend over or never expecting to live past 30.

Most of us have no idea how deeply socioeconomic class shapes our life and even what we believe is possible. And this is what people mean when they use that word privilege. You know that word that everybody scoffs at? Think about the privilege you have. If you grew up in a family where someone said, of course you're going to college, that's privilege. If your parents took you to visit a campus when you were a kid and say,

hey, one day you can go here, that's privilege. In fact, that's what my parents did. They told my sisters, you can go here to UC Berkeley. They told me, you can go to Stanford. And because they said it, because they showed it to us, it suddenly felt normal and possible. And that's actually where we went. Now, imagine the opposite. Imagine growing up in a world where according to your eyes, nobody really lives past 30, where you literally don't see old people around you because they're either bedridden or they all died. How could you possibly even think of planning for retirement when you don't even believe you'll make it there? This is why models matter. It's what people mean when they say representation matters. If you don't see it, it doesn't even feel possible.

And here's the takeaway, especially for parents watching this show right now. If you're raising kids, think about the possibilities that you can open up for them. It could be college, it could be money, it could be anything. I remember my sister once competed in a powerlifting event and she brought her daughter to the competition. Imagine being a young girl and seeing your mom who's a doctor lifting more weight than most people can imagine. What do you think that does for a young girl's sense of possibility?

That is the gift you can give your loved ones, your kids, your family, even your friends, exposing them to new models, especially you living a rich life and being competent with money. Let them see what's possible. You've heard me say this with money before. Fight for simplicity. The more complex your system, the more things that can break.

And it is the same in business. Now, as an entrepreneur and CEO, I have seen tons of complexity in my own business. You've got accounting in one tool, HR, and another inventory. If you've got it, tracked in some random spreadsheet, every decision becomes a scavenger hunt. That complexity can kill your momentum. So we simplify.

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Take me back to your childhood. Oh, boy. I'll thank God I have another tissue right here, huh? Okay. Tell me. I would say that we were lower middle class. I grew up in a suburb of Cleveland. So basically what happened when I was like 12-ish, my parents decided we were going to move. So my mom says, oh, we drive into this new development. She wants to get a house in this development. and it's going to have to be constructed from scratch, of course.

It's a brand new development. And so they had some model homes there, but they couldn't afford the model homes. So they literally had to make a smaller version of the model. It's been a while. But they had to make like a steeper roof because it was like somehow like less material. All the garages were supposed to be side facing. They had to get a waiver to make a front facing garage. So they had to pour less concrete and that cost us less.

So what happened? So basically the house took all our money. and my dad still doesn't have money to this moment. He still hasn't paid off the house. It's been 35 years. What did you learn from that as a 12-year-old? That I wish my dad could have said no. Oh, okay.

I did find out years later, like kind of more recently, actually, that my brother and I went to private school for, like, first grade through 12th grade, and they had to take out loans to pay for it. And so, like, those kind of things frustrate me when I'm so much in student loan debt where you're like, couldn't do a save something that money to help me pay from my school or something? Did you ever talk to them about that? I have talked to them a lot about it

and it just kind of was the decision they made. They felt very strongly that I have a Catholic school education. It's really interesting. I spoke into several parents on this podcast who insist on sending their kids to private school. That was their rich life, I guess, sending me to a private school and I have a younger brother too, so we both went.

But there were other things too, Because, well, you know how much I own student loans. So a lot of it was my undergrad. I had also gotten a half ride to Eastern Michigan. But I didn't want to go to Eastern Michigan. I didn't think it was like as great. I went to Duques and I loved it and I wanted to go there. But it was like more expensive.

How did you decide not to go to the school where you had half tuition paid for? In truth, I was a stupid 18 year old. I didn't understand. And everyone around me because, you know, this was almost 30 years ago and nobody was talking about student loans at that time like we are now. So my dad was like, oh, yeah, it's fine, that's cool. But then I have been stuck with the burden of the student loans since then. You know what I mean?

It's just very frustrating, I think. Who are you frustrated at? I think, in truth, mostly my parents, they spent a lot of my childhood robbing Peter to pay Paul and, you know, electricity would get turned off. Our cars would break down inside it road all the time. It just, it was always like, we were in debt and never could get out of it. So, you know, it just, I think my dad struggled to ask for help as well.

And so would get himself into maybe a financial situation, but didn't know how to get himself out and would think he had to do it. What lessons did you grow up with relating to money that you bring to this relationship? Oh, that is actually a really tough one because I have done everything. thing I possibly can to be different than my parents, and I still feel like I'm in the exact same spot of not being able to get ahead. I mean, despite my Paltry Savings account, it certainly is more than they have. My investment accounts are more than they have. I'm aiming for financials. I'm not asking you to compare yourself to your parents. I don't know. I don't think I learned

any lessons from them. Christine, I'm not asking you to compare yourself to your parents. I'm asking what lessons did you observe or absorb that you are now bringing. bringing to this relationship. I think that you have taken their lessons and internalize them into a fear of yours and sort of like operate from that. I mean, that's what I kind of think. I think that you see what their lives, the choices they made, and you prescribe your own feeling to that.

And then you, that's fearful for you. You operate from fear. Do you agree, Christine, or disagree? Oh, I agree 100%. Okay. That's kind of profound. Good point that. I always say the partner knows best.

If you are stuck, sometimes you just ask your partner. They know. They've been watching it for years. Christine, how come about that didn't come up when I just asked you? Well, that is what I was saying. I was trying to be different from my parents because I'm afraid of being like them. But you're still afraid today. Well, right, because we're not financially stable.

Ah, so if you were financially stable, you would not be afraid. Is that what you're saying? That's correct. Okay. And have you taken specific steps to become financially stable? I've tried. Oh, that, hmm. It's not been successful, but I have tried.

How do you feel about your student loan? Indifferent. I don't think there's any hope of paying it off before I die, so I just am not making a very concerted effort. You have $180,000. Yeah, but what am I supposed to do about that? I only make $67,000 a year. Okay. I'm not talking about solution.

I'm talking about how do you feel about that debt? I did not understand the ramifications of my decision. I think people had told me I would make enough money to pay it, but the truth was I didn't. And I do feel indifferent because I have no interest in really making any effort to pay this loan. I will pay the monthly payment, but I'm not going to make extra payments when it's never going to get paid off. And that, how do you feel about your $120,000 loan in a word or two? Shameful and overwhelmed. Yeah, that's more common.

I mean, I get that, but what am I supposed to do? I mean, it's been around for 25 years. It's not getting paid, so I'm doing my best, but I have other debt that I can actually pay off and make, like, a difference in my life. The student loan, I just... But it's something that we talk about a lot. We feel overwhelmed. We're not going to be able to pay it. It's a constant hindrance in our lives.

It's the reason why we can't get ahead. That's the kind of narrative that the student loans play in our conversations. I love that you use the word narrative. Yeah. I love that. so much of the way that we treat our money is purely a narrative. Yeah. How old is your daughter?

14. 14. Remember when she was like four, like three, four? It's all like making up stories, you know, I'm flying on a unicorn, that type of thing. Adults are actually not much different. So much of our relationship with money is essentially a fairy tale. Yeah. I mean, I see what you're saying.

It's not making me more interested in pain them. hearing how Christine grew up with her parents racking up debt, it's no surprise that she is caught in the same exact cycle today. And this is the unfortunate reality for millions of Americans. Compound interest can work for you or it can work against you. In this case, it works against them, ballooning into something so overwhelming, they've basically just filed it away and they try not to think about it.

But of course, what does that do? Ignoring it only makes it worse, which is one reason that so many people feel crushed by their loans. The weight is so heavy that they just give up. They stop opening statements. They stop imagining what life could look like without that debt. But on this show, we don't run from what's uncomfortable. We actually go straight through the fire.

So if you are in a similar situation, buried under loans, not even sure how to start, you don't have to do it alone. In my money coaching program, I show you step by step how to take control of your money, build a plan and then stick with that plan so you follow through. You can sign up at IWT.com slash money coaching. Now listen as I push Christine and Thad to face the consequences of years of inaction. See if we can finally create a plan for it. In the next 10 years, of course, I anticipate that that is going to retire.

And I do worry because I certainly have more in my retirement accounts, but it's not enough to support us both. What will happen? well we've talked about moving to a lower cost area once his daughter's out of high school she's just going to be a freshman and starting it in two weeks so we've got four or five years before that could even be a reality we could go back to one of our two hometowns pittsburgh or cleveland would i think be good choices for us and have family nearby but i think we're going to have to live in you know maybe small cramped quarters still no car relying on public

transportation in areas where that's not as possible as it is here, I definitely don't think we're going to be able to take any vacations. I enjoy to get a pedicure, and I used to get one just once per year on my birthday, and we have increased that kind of recently in an effort to have a more rich life. I think that those kind of things obviously couldn't be little splurges anymore. It just is, I think we'll just have to live a tiny cramped life. Yeah. Dad, what about you? if nothing changes 10 years from now? I have a little bit of a different view. I'm more optimistic about it.

I don't think that it's going to be cramped. I still think that somehow, we'll move to a place that we want to live. So, I mean, something like the Maine or the Northwest, you know, like I think that like in four years when we are out of the high school, then I think the future opens up then. You know, we can do it when we want. I don't necessarily think that that's going to be a downward trend. What about the money part of it? I mean, I'm not afraid that not having money.

Just to put another way of looking at it, right now, the two of you have a savings of $2,612 total. You have $136,000 invested. You know, if we're, you know, being relatively conservative, you know, maybe you take, I don't know, $6,000 a year withdrawal from that amount. What are you going to do with $6,000 a year? Nobody can live on that. you don't own a house so your housing costs even if you go somewhere cheaper still going to exist

now we're talking about social security and if you know anyone who takes social security it's not a lot of money we're talking poverty line below poverty line i guess what i'm trying to get at is like let's get really specific here if nothing changes the way i see it there's no vacations you're forced to move to a place that you will probably not want to move to because it by definition will be undesirable. You don't eat out. You're literally getting the cheapest on-sale bread. That's what we're talking about day-to-day. What do you guys think of that? Yeah. And how should I feel about that thing? I think you should feel extremely terrified. Okay. Are you all prepared to make some big changes or do we want to make little changes?

I personally am prepared to make very big changes. Okay. Thad? Yes. I'm prepared to make big changes. Love it. Let's do it. we have the options for the little ones, too? Just so, just kidding. Your fixed costs are at 61%, which, again, is striking to me. A couple of things I want to highlight here. Your car payment slash transportation is extremely low. So what are you taking the train? I ride my bike. You ride your bike? Great. We use metro and bus in other. Love it. I love public transportation. If you had a car, your numbers would be over 70.

great job keep it up let's look at the rest of it phone at 170 whatever subscriptions at 207 no way drop that i don't know does nfl sunday ticket go if you're asking me the answer is yes that should have gone in the first place no i was talking about that i'm sorry not you were me because that actually saves us money by him not going out to watch the game with friends and then eating food no no no no no no no that's yeah yeah NFL is gone a family with 3003 $39,000 of debt does not have an NFL subscription. I'm sorry. It's gone.

Out of there. All right. Thank you. It's because we're still on this Zoom call, I think. We're here to learn and like buy into this. Let's just do this. Thank you. Let me put it this way.

If you guys are faking it for me, good luck. I'm not. But I'm saying like, I don't think. But Christine, I don't know. I'm being realistic. Christine. Yes. Your need to control is showing up right now.

Okay. What is the new subscription? number, please. I mean, yeah, it's at zero dollars. Okay. I mean, geez, it does seem like extreme, but yeah, no, we can cut. We can cut. Hold on.

What seems extreme to me is having $339,000 of debt and almost no savings at age 57. I don't think you're prepared for the type of changes you need to make. This is the easiest thing we're going to do on our whole call. $207? Christine, what's the indecision here? I don't know. I actually don't know. But it's you.

Yeah, it is me. It's only me. I think that you are surprised that that is actually participating with money, that he's actually moving in a direction that would produce a healthier outcome. I think you don't believe it. I think you think it's too good to be true. And the minute we hang up this call, it's going to go back the way it is. You think that by decreasing the amount you have to cut, he might actually follow through.

But that's not how it's going to work. Either he's going to do it or he's. He's not. Right. I need you to understand that. You have to be willing to ask for what you need. Okay. And that you also need to be willing to ask for what you need because you're 57.

In other words, you can't both be fighting each other on this. You actually both need to be a team and you need to be having an upward spiral. Otherwise, you're doomed. I believe in you, Christina. And you can believe that I will be there. How about that? If you believe that, I will put my best forward effort and walk it with you. It's hard because so many things I've asked him to do over the years and they don't get done.

And so I don't feel like this is going to get done. It's just hard. I get it. I get it. There's a lot of scars. When you ask your partner and they don't do it, they either outright refuse, they kick the can down the road, they let a piece of paper sit on the counter for six months. It really causes scars. And look at this.

Christine can't even believe that Thad, that you will cut an NFL subscription. Do you see the effects that your behavior has had on Christine? I do. So I don't know if the two of you are going to stick with any plan that we come up with. I don't know. And actually, that's not really my responsibility. I can't control your finances. I'm not here to be the magical savior.

It's your money. You all got yourself into this situation. And the only people who will pull you out will be the two of you. that's it it's really as simple as that now you might make it i hope you do i'll give you as much support as i can on this call and my community will rally behind you watching seeing how you follow up all of that thank you but you might not and i think that's important enough to know as well and if note that now is the time to listen right if you don't change then we are also going to talk about what steps you might take because right now this is

unsustainable yeah it simply cannot work you can hear the scars in christine's voice years of asking years of him not following through and this isn't just about that christine says i asked him but she didn't actually ask for exactly what she wanted everyone listening needs to hear this that skill of asking for what you want is one of the most important and underdeveloped skills to living a rich life. And I say that as someone who's working on this very thing in my own relationship. What Christine needs is competence, competence around money, because competence is what builds confidence. And they also probably need a therapist. Christine is skeptical of that. Fine, I'm skeptical too. But if we both stay in skepticism forever,

nothing changes. We could end the call right now, and they would walk away with nothing changing. Instead, we're going back to the numbers to find a different way to tackle this. Subscriptions. What number should I put in? Zero dollars. Thank you very much. Thad, do you agree? I agree. Zero it is. Let's watch what happens. Your fixed cost dropped to 59%. All of that work was not a waste, but I do want to point out, we spent probably 10 minutes talking about that one number. It dropped your fixed cost by 2%. Not much. Do you all see that? Yes. We need to be playing big, way bigger. I think our cable bill is two, I think it's this one,

235, 59. Where is that? Part of the utilities. Oh, you want to drop that? Okay. Well, it's the only other big, like, expense that we actually, we can't control our rent right now, so. Okay, you want to drop it? Yeah, I think it goes down to 200 then, if it's 436 and this is 235. Yeah, it drops down to 200. Watch this. Utilities going down. Whoa, we're at 56%. Guys, this is really impressive. Mm-hmm. Okay, I'm liking it.

I'm loving it, actually. Can we keep moving? Yeah, let's go. By the way, that nice TV you have on the wall, it's going to be a beautiful picture frame of just black. It's perfect. Like, we call it darkness. Ah, perfect.

Never turn that thing on. Can I just point something out? Do you realize that you have $4,000 per month to spend wherever you like? I sure it doesn't feel like it, but... I know it doesn't feel like it. That is what the chart says. I want to figure out where the best place to put it.

I don't want to just say I'm acquiescing to it, but like whatever we think is the best and most appropriate use of the money, that's where I wanted to go. Well, I think we do have to hear budget for both of our student loan payments. Neither one of us is making our student loan payments right now, and they're coming back in October. Mine's like 6, 735 a month. Yeah, mine's somewhere around, um,

500 a month. So 1,200. Let's say 1,300. Yeah, we do have to budget for that. Let's say 13. And that's minimums. Yeah, those are minimum. Do you know the interest rate on those? I want to think it's like 6%. It's outrageous. Okay. You're already paying $800 a month towards debt. That's for what? The credit cards? Yes. So I'm going to add $1,300 to the amount of debt payments, which is going to take you to 2092. Okay. your fixed cost jumped up to 70% okay sometimes debt payments artificially inflate that number in this case it's you're going to be paying it out for a long time yeah so we're gonna look at that in a minute but let's go down you still have $2,635 a month yeah put it in his retirement account that's it yeah well and to our savings I said that to our savings into our retirement account so how much I don't know I'm willing to how much would be a good number a half let's put it thousand dollars a month towards investments and let's put a thousand dollars a month towards long-term emergency fund i am going to realistically you all are not doing this sewing in photography class no

that was one time vacations at 175 i'm sorry to say you have no vacations well it's not vacations that was our savings like it only one savings the count is what it is but it's literally labeled vacations. I mean, I have the idea of going on a Viking cruise. I really want to go very badly, but, you know, it's not in our budget right now, and that feels frustrating. I'm not trying to be hard on you guys, but look at this. You guys cannot afford to take vacations. That's it. And we don't take vacations. It's not really for vacations. That's why I'm back on you. It's just our savings account. Yeah, so you can zero that number out. It's for anything we need for our house in an emergency. No. So it's an emergency fund. Stop. We don't put money in a vacation fund that is

not really for vacations. You're not respecting money when you put money for one thing, but you deep down, you know you're going to tap into it when you need it. That is not how we respect money. We need to fill up an emergency fund and we need to be honest with each other. We are not taking a vacation in the near term. That's it. So there is no vacation fund. There is no vacation savings. None of it. It doesn't exist because it's not going to happen. Part of living a rich life is you need to be honest with yourself and honest with the people you love. Right now, you're not doing either. Dad, have you talked about college for your daughter? Other than like as throughout life, but no. I mean, at this point, like, you know.

How's she planning to pay for it? I would be paying for you. I mean, like loans or something like that. I don't know. We haven't talked about it. I mean, she's... Let's talk about it right now. Dad, you cannot afford to pay for your daughter. Okay. It's as simple as that. There is no possible way. That's it. That's really hard for parents to hear. You know, my parents didn't pay for my college. They told us point blank. They're like, of course you're going to college. We expect that, but we don't have money for you. So you're going to have to find a way. You're going to have to get scholarships, et cetera. And we did. Sometimes some of my siblings took out loans. I'm not saying that everybody can do it. What I am saying is that my parents were very honest with us. And it actually

didn't make us feel bad. We're just like, oh, okay, that's what we knew. We can't. They laugh. They're like, we don't have any money. What do you want us to do? We have no money. Okay. Thank you for telling me. This is the kind of honesty that I want with money. When I say, you've got to be honest with the people we love and with ourselves. This is what I mean. Are we good to continue on with the numbers? Sure. Yes. First of all, these numbers have dramatically shifted. Your fixed costs have gone up. They've gone up from roughly 60% to 70%. That is primarily because you are paying. a lot more towards debt, okay? And we also did drop a little bit of the subscriptions and cable, so you actually blunted that number going up. Good job. I think that's really good. Your investments are at 10%. They are actually a little bit higher than that if we count all the pre-tax investments, because that is making some pre-tax 403B. So it's at least 10%, probably like 15%, something like that. Your savings are at 12%. We have all of the money, $1,175 being directed towards a long-term emergency fund. It's going to take you

six months to get one month of an emergency fund. So it's a little slower than I would like, but at least we're going in the right direction. And then guilt-free spending, you have $735 left over total per month, 8%. Now, normally I would say 8% is pretty low. You know, typically, I like to see that number 20 to 35%. The fact is you have to start living on way less. Way less. 8% is fine. If I were being aggressive about it, I would do it on 3% to 5%.

But I don't think right now you have the capabilities to do that. It's hard to go from 40% down to 8%. So I want to be realistic. How does it strike you so far? For me, I like it. I'm paying the bills, the student loans. I think that makes me feel good. I feel more complete that way.

So I like seeing the plan and lay it out in front of us. Okay. Christine? I mean, the numbers are stark, but I think it's going the right direction, for sure. I'm on board with it. Where are we going to end up? That's what we need to know. Is it enough?

I want to plug these into my investment calculator. You can just search Rameith calculators, and you will find a series of calculators. We'll use the investment one. So you are starting off with 136,000. $1,000. You're going to invest $1,000 a month plus Thad's amount. So let's make it $1,500 just for easy math. How about that? Is that fair enough? Thad, are we approximately 500 bucks a month pre-tax? Yes. How many years will you keep investing? Thad, you're 57. So why don't we say eight years just to see? Just to your number, yes. All right. So if we include both your

investments, altogether, you two will have $430,000. But you didn't include my contributions to that, if that's our joint. Do you have more pretext that you're contributing? Wait, 401K, $200 a month? Okay. No, $230. I'm sorry, $230. All right, so you're going to have $460,000.

Okay. Mm-hmm. And let's take a look at what that means. You will be able to safely withdraw $18,000 per year for retirement. That is not enough. No. We would clearly be living in a cardboard box next to the ditch on the side of the road. Just say, you're not happy, I guess.

Not completely. No, we wouldn't. We wouldn't even bill afford anything. Yeah. What are your options? I mean, I can personally increase my investments, but I'll also be working longer. I probably have 20 years left of working. Okay.

So I've got longer to invest than he does. I like where you're going with time. Time is one of your number one variables. Thad, I don't think you're going to retire at 65. I don't think so either. Shall we take a look at the numbers then? If we calculate this for not just eight years, but let's make it 13 years, suddenly you have $776,000.

You could withdraw $31,000 per year. I mean, it's still not a lot, but certainly more than it was. Yes, it's going in the right direction. Let's not forget Social Security. Again, not a lot, but at this point, we actually need to factor that in. And I'll still be working seven years past that. Yes, you will? You know, I'm hoping to get a higher paying either position at my company or a different job that pays more.

Could you make that happen for sure? No, I will not at my company. I'd have to leave my company to get a higher paying job right now. Could you do it? Yeah, I could do it, sure. If there's one available. I live in Washington, D.C., where basically all the federal employees just got laid off. So job market's a little stiff, but I'll have my eyes out looking.

It is one of the most important things you can do is for you to increase your job salary. And so I know that it's very, very difficult right now in the federal government. But when it comes to where you are putting your energy, putting it towards finding a higher-paying job will be one of the, the most important things you can do. Okay. Dad, what about you? What about your income? I intend on increasing my income considerably like in the next five years or so like that. I don't care about five years. I care about five months at this stage. We don't have five years. In five, oh, in five months? Oh, no. How can you do it? Not no. How can you do it? You have to. Get a new job in five months? I don't know. That's one way to go. No. What else?

Oh, am I saving now? I'm doing right now? you do have to increase your savings. You need more money. You need more income. How? In addition to working more than I could. I could pick up more work. I mean, I can get more jobs.

I mean, you know, like the next thing. Well, so when school starts, I do math, that's like extra $550. I'm a math coach for the team. Really? Yeah. $550 per what? Oh, no, that's like a once time thing, you know?

So I do like, I do like the trainings and like the, extra income stuff for teachers throughout the year. I need more than that. You need more than that. Not me. You need more. Right. Tutoring?

Tutoring? It's kind of hard. Life is hard. Having $339,000 of debt is hard. And being poor when you're older is really hard. It's going to be hard. No, but instead of tutoring somebody else's kid, I'm going to tutor my own kid at a time. So, you know, and that's a choice I wouldn't have to make because she's struggling.

I need to make sure, you know, like, I have energies. I understand I need to make that energy, but hard? I don't know what that word means when you have this much debt and you're going to retire in abject poverty. Right, yeah. I guess we're speaking different languages. I don't know how much, what job I can pick up now and how I can increase, like, my salary in six months. If you had a gun to your head, could you do it? uh yeah wow that's quite a telling response like who's going to give me a job i mean what am i

going to do that's that's i find this extremely fascinating if somebody told me remit you have no business everything shut down and gun to the head could you find a way to earn more money i didn't even tell you how much money i just said more my answer would be i don't need six months give me five days get out of my way i'm done with this conversation come back to me on friday i'll find a way what what is the difference and there isn't a difference why do i say it that way and you don't you're asking me to get another revenue income stream which is fine right and i'm willing to do that in any manner that i can do what that would look like and what that is i don't know like evening job like to work get like subway after school right what i was saying before

there is that work-life balance, right? As far as, like, if my daughter is, I'm taking care of her as well. I have to be part of her life as well. If I say I work until I come home at six and I take an evening job and I work over night, like how much work in addition to a job should I get, right, and be content with and say, hey, I'm content. This is a stable pattern for the next 13 years, right? and being able to meet the obligations.

I'm willing to do that. I'm just making sure that the priorities are there. If that's pushing back, I don't mean to push back, but, you know, I'm just... Well, I think right now you have $31,000 a year in retirement. Right. And that's if the two of you combine your income. Right. I don't personally really mind if it's subway or waitering or tutoring or a second...

It doesn't matter to me. It's actually not my life. where the money is going to affect it. It's yours. And that is why when you are asking me, what kind of job are you talking about? It's actually, what you're trying to do unconsciously,

although you don't realize it, is you're trying to delegate the problem back to me. You're tossing me the ball, and I'm actually tossing it right back to you. I don't know. If you want to work at Subway, you want to work at the mall, if you want a tutor,

it's up to you. Because you and the two of you will be the ones who experience the after effect. of your decisions right now. When school starts, we can pick up weekend tutors. Yeah, if there are some at your school, I prefer that because honestly, you know, I don't want to be at home with a 14-year-old by myself like all evening.

Sorry, man, not doing it. So the parenting is a tough job and it takes like all the dedication and ultimately she isn't my child. So like a lot of the decision making isn't mine. So if I'm the only one here all the time, it doesn't want to. worked that well. I'm sorry, but if you're in hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt, you don't get to ponder the finer points of work-life balance. I am genuinely mystified right now. All I can think about is all the immigrant parents I know who came to America and did whatever

it took to be able to become financially stable. I remember recently I was in Atlanta doing a live event. My lift driver picked me up and he looked back. He goes, Ramit Sakey. He knew who I was. He recognize me. He was an economist in Ethiopia, and he now drives a lift while listening to podcast to learn how finance works in America. He was an economist. Now he drives a lift. I think about the Indian parents who work at a gas station or the Chinese family who runs a restaurant with their kids seven days a week. And if you ask them about work life balance, they would say, what? That's the world I grew up in. Our work ethic was insane because it had to be. That was the only way we could do it. Now I love balance. Life is different now, but it would only be possible

because of what I learned from my parents and all the other people surrounding us as kids. I appreciate balance, but my definition of hard work is completely different. Like if you told me right now, Ramit, you're going to die in poverty unless you make more money this week. My answer would be very simple. Get out of my way. I'm going to figure it out right now. I'm not talking about work-life balance when the stakes are this high. Thad doesn't have that urgency. And I don't think he truly understands the situation he's in. What's scarier is even if he did understand it, that doesn't mean he would be successful in changing.

But in order to even have a shot at being successful, you have to recognize the severity of your situation. You have to be honest. The next difficult subject that we're going to tackle is something. I have been waiting for a long time, for hours to unpack with them. It's one of the major cracks in their financial foundation. Do you know what I'm referring to? Let's take a look.

look at the difference in income and look at the way that you have split your fixed costs. What do you notice? We just had a conversation about this, not too long ago, about like... Just tell me what you notice. It's not balanced. Exactly. It's equal, like everyone's paying equal, but they're not making the same amount of money. You make a lot more at that and you are paying 50%, which is great for you, but very

onerous and difficult for Christine. Right. So you all talked about it. What was your conclusion? Well, we didn't. We just kind of noticed, as I say, since that disparity is kind of new with this this year, now that we are willing to have that, and it had been lopsided before the other way, I think. You guys make decisions when you talk about money?

We don't. We don't. No, you don't. You're not even making them right now. When you're faced with poverty in old age, you're still not me. You're just talking around it. The question is, what do you notice about how your expenses are, related to how much your income is, which that answered, I appreciate it.

And then he said, well, we had a conversation about this. We've been talking about this. Okay, what did you decide? Nothing. Yeah. Couples who are successful with money make decisions and they make them fast. Couples who are unsuccessful with money talk about it over and over and over again and they never make decisions.

Which one are you? Well, clearly we're the latter. But like, I don't feel like I have the power to drive. this decision because I'm the one that makes the least amount of money. Oh, the person who makes less money has less power? Who said that? Or is that just a story? That's what that said, because he used to make less than me. And he refused to do a percentage split out of expenses. So now that we have disparate incomes the other direction, I surely can't ask for percentage breakouts. Why not? Why can't you? Because he refused to do it. So now, like,

it doesn't feel fair. Let me make sure I understand this. Thad refused to do percentage-based breakouts when he was making less. Yes. Even though that would have been advantageous to him. And you have said,

surely I cannot bring up proportional payments. Why? I said, hey, I noticed that I make a lot less money than you and I'm still paying half of everything. And he said, oh yeah,

I noticed that too. That's not bringing it up. What is that? Hey, everybody, I noticed the sky is blue today. Yeah. That doesn't mean that I feel like eating soup. That has nothing to do with it. When you bring it up, what do you want?

Christine, I can tell that you often have trouble asking specifically for what you want, right? I didn't think so, but I guess that might be true. What do you want when you bring that up? Why are you bringing it up? Well, because I noticed it was a reason that my credit cards can't get paid down faster because I don't have, it doesn't feel like I have the access money every month, every pay even. Yeah, that's correct. You're right. Your instinct is exactly right. This is not fair. You're not even married. I know. But that's more the reason we should be half and half. We're not married. We have to

like shoulder the burdens of each of like our own stuff. There is an argument to be made for the fact that you are not married. So there are certain differences that you might have. Whereas when you are married. At least in my opinion, you should combine as much as possible. But can I just say, Christine, it is not fair or feasible to have one person with 78% fixed costs and the other person with 50%. But you still haven't asked that for what you want. Well, but I can't ask him for what I want. It's not my money. When I married my wife, my lifestyle was much more expensive than hers. okay I had a bigger apartment

spent more on food and that kind of thing right if I had 50 50 with her it would have financially drowned her it wouldn't have been fair to her

dad I hope you're listening very carefully because you are me in this situation yeah but I don't think it's fair I did not wait for her to cry well we're not married The marriage part is irrelevant to this. I don't think it is.

Okay, tell me, you believe, Christine, that because you're not married, you should have to pay 50-50? Yes, that's what we've agreed to. So, like, I don't see how we change that because, like, I can't say, well, it's not my money, but give it to me so I can pay my bills. Paying proportionally does not mean that he gives you money. That's not how it works. Christine, what I notice again is I'm trying to really, I'm actually trying to help you, Christine, financially. and you are pushing back inexplicably.

I don't think you even know why you're pushing back. I'm trying to help you right now. I know you are. And I appreciate that. But it's not my money to ask for. So I'm not going to. You're not asking for anybody to give you money. That is not going to write you a check.

Well, then he would put more into the household account so that we would have more money to pay our bills. Yes. And you would put less because you earn less. Like I pay a lot more taxes. than you, I make a lot more so I can afford to do that. Do you see that? I do.

What do you think about that? I don't know what I think because when the situation was reversed, he said no. And so it doesn't feel like now that the situation is the way it is now that I can ask. I never flatly refused to say that wasn't going to do that. We brought this up. I didn't say I wasn't the portion of that. I wasn't even asked. I just don't like being characterized as like unresponsive,

refusing to do it, you know, like not sharing the money, like every dollar I have goes to this household, except for the money that I would waste it. And I fessed up to that, I'm willing to do it now. Yeah, but I mean, I'm not the bad guy here. Christine, what do you take from that? I guess he's willing to split it proportionally, but I, in fairness, honey, I never said that you wouldn't. I just didn't ask because you didn't do it when the situation was reversed. Right, yeah, no, that's, yeah, I'm not refusing to do anything. Like, I'm 100% supportive of you as much as I can with everything. Do you realize that that is offering to do this and you're refusing to take the help, which would...

I didn't refuse to take the help. I said it sounds like he'll do it, so... Christine, I understand that, but, Christine, I want you to understand your own behavior right now. There have been several occasions where that has not pushed back. He's like, take the NFL. I don't care. you refused at first. You're being drowned financially.

It's not fair, and you never asked for it because of a story you created in your head. Now he hears it. He goes, yeah, fine. Are you willing to take the help? No. Okay, love it. Great.

This is what making decisions is about. This is hard, but this is also what I meant by we have to walk through the fire. We have to do this stuff. There's no other way around it. Look at what happens when I change the numbers in the CSP. Christine's going to pay 40%. That is going to pay 40%.

That is going to. going to pay 60% and you're going to see these numbers dramatically changed. Take a look. Let's see here, 1290 for your portion of the rent. That's down from 1600 bucks. Right. What does that mean to you, Christine? That I might have more money to pay my credit cards. Exactly. You're going to have more money. That's proportionality. Look at these numbers starting to adjust already. In your fixed costs, each of your individual costs are becoming a lot more rational. Christine, is your fixed cost, which used to be, what, 78%? Yeah.

They're down to 64%. What does that mean for you? I think it just feels that are like there's more money available. I was feeling really pinched. Yeah, because the lifestyle, the two of you have, is unsustainable. Dad, I want to check in with you. This means you're going to be paying a lot more. I mean, one of them I have money to pay for my daughter stuff and give me 40 bucks a paycheck so I could have fun.

That's all I got to do. I don't need any money for anything else. I don't do anything else. I don't have any other activities that I do that cost money. That's awesome. I'll take the win and I think we can make proportionality work. What I actually want to hear and what I think Christine wants to hear is a deeper level of engagement. So this idea of like, whatever, as long as like I have a bill, that's actually not the level that I need you to be operating at with your money.

You actually need to understand, oh my God, this now means I'm going to be paying X hundred dollars. extra a month towards fixed cost, which means I'm not going to be able to have this much for guilt-free spending, etc. That is the level of fluency that you need to have with your money at age 57 with almost nothing in retirement. That's where I just did though, right? Is that that we just did? No, that's not what you did. I did promise to talk about what would happen if things don't change because this is a lot of changes. Like a lot of things have to go right in order for this to work. Right.

So what if it doesn't? I mean, clearly, I think we'd have to, when we already probably do have to move somewhere that's less expensive, a lot less expense. Dad, what if you get laid off? And no money. I'll get another job as a teacher. Okay.

Let's say that you can't get another job that pays what you're making. You only get, you know, two thirds of what you're making. You know, high cost and try to survive. I mean, like, I mean, worst case scenario it goes. Is homeless shelter, right? I mean, that's probably the worst case scenario. Have you been in a homeless shelter before? I have.

You never talked about worst case, did you? No. When you talk about moving back and breaking it? And, like, you have to move back to Cleveland and we can move in Pittsburgh. Yeah, I mean, we have discussed it just, like, kind of in passing, but, you know, of course you hope it doesn't come to fruition.

But sure, I think that's just kind of what would happen. I would have to move back home with my dad and my brother. I mean, I've already been laid off a number of times and have consistently gotten jobs with lower pace. So, I mean, we've made it, but it was tough. What about if we end this call and things look good for a week, you make some changes, and then Fad, you stopped following up. Things kind of go back.

Christine is chasing after you. You're avoiding. What would you do then? I don't know what I would do. I think I would just keep pressing forward with doing what I could with my own finances, trying to increase my retirement account, try and find some extra money for savings, even to just do the best I could. Thad, what would you do? If you weren't making progress on the things we talked about, Christine felt like she was trying to control you by asking every day, what would you do? if we weren't going to make it, if we weren't making it together, if we decided that we weren't going to be able to move forward with this shared dream. You know, we've talked about like breaking up. You two are not married. You have different financial situations, although both are extremely concerning.

And if I am each of you, I am saying, look, this is what I need in this relationship, financially speaking in order to be comfortable in order to be comfortable to stay in order to be comfortable to be married and it's cut and dry it's decisive if both of you really dedicated yourself to earning more and I think it's extremely possible not only could you save money not only could you invest for retirement I think you could make a pretty serious dent in your debt but it would require extreme focus and it would require doing it as a team So that becomes the overriding goal, less about work-life balance, just being very honest. And every additional dollar that you make, you would have a plan for how much goes into it,

in part because I don't want you to end up in poverty in your old age. If you can do all of those things and you can both do it together, I think you have a pretty good shot. I feel nervous. really nervous because I know that you have a lot of changes to make and I know what your future could hold. And trust me, I want the absolute best for you. My dream for you is that the two of you actually do this as a team that you both see, oh my God, we have a lot of changes to make with our money. We are going to do this as a mission. We're going to get our daughter involved. We are going to talk about this and this is actually going to become something that is fun like yes it's going

to be hard yet we have no cable anymore that sucks but we are doing this as a family unit and I am not sure if you two want that yeah um yeah I mean I do want that of course I I want to have financial stability that's been like all the whole time and I just am not sure just I'm sure we're going to get there. I feel nervous about being able to remain committed to the things I've talked about tonight. I struggle with being honest, and if I'm not 100% in, then no matter, it's not going to work. I mean, and I kind of know that.

It's really hard. I have to come to that conclusion. I have to change that mentality. You know, do I want to walk this journey with my partner and end up in old age where we can live together and you know and if it's going to work then i'm willing to sort of put that in it's going to be hard though but you know i'm willing to put that effort in we're going to get to their follow-ups in just a second but first i'd like to share a couple of thoughts here's what i suspect will happen i think christine and thad will be motivated for a couple of weeks i think they'll cut the

nfl spending and they'll make some small easy changes but i suspect when it comes to the harder stuff like redirecting guilt-free spending and consistently saving and investing that's where most people find it much harder. It's easy to nibble at the edges. You can open up an account, transfer 50 bucks, but the moment that something gets hard, a lot of people find it easy for the entire thing to derail. Now, I hope I'm wrong.

My real dream is that they follow up next week and next month, and they surprise all of us. They make massive changes. They build huge momentum. They realize they can actually go faster and they get into this upward spiral with higher paying jobs and attacking their debt. It's possible.

I've seen it happen and I would love if it happened here. Now, let's take a look at their followers. So it's been three weeks since we talked to Remy and I just wanted to check in and let you know how that and I are doing. I would say that one of the biggest changes I've seen is that that is more engaged with our finances and is taking on a lot of responsibility

for improving his own financial. financial situation, which has gone a long way. I think toward relieving some of the stress from me and also for making it seem like we're more equal partners in the finance conversation rather than me leading the way 100% of the time. So we've been able to increase our emergency savings account by diverting money from canceled subscriptions and adding 90% of any extra money we earn from jobs or bonuses or things like that. that to the account. Also, we have agreed to restart our money talks soon. So I think probably next weekend, we'll have our first conversation in the new post for meet world. So I'm looking

forward to that and continuing our work through this financial journey together. So thank you, Remit. I appreciate all your help. And it's looking up for us. So yay. My biggest takeaway from our interview with me is just how critical my retirement situation is in regard to the lack of money that I've saved for that. I think the roommate turned it as a crisis situation and I'm inclined to believe him. I have changed that mentality and I've realized that I have to go with intentionality moving forward, saving for retirement, saving for the future. Some of the action steps that we've taken since then or I've taken since then is that I have up my retirement funds for a paycheck. I have I created a savings fund for taxes and for house emergencies, and I've increased the amount of

savings I'm putting into our house. I also, in investigating my situation, I was able to find a retirement fund from a previous job, my previous job of $45,000. So that added to what I currently have. So that's been a benefit. We've cut about $80 of subscriptions, about five subscriptions, and that's been a proactive move. And to this date, we have not yet subscribed to the NFL and then just going forward, Chrissy and I are having conversations that are positive. It's been a great experience, and I want to continue. You know, travel is one of my top money dials

or the area of life that I love to spend money on. Over the last few years, some very memorable trips we've taken. Italy, we took a design tour in Japan, safari and Kenya and Tanzania. If travel is one of your money dials too, I want to tell you about a podcast that I love, It's called All the Hacks, and it teaches you the hacks, tips, and tactics you need to upgrade your life, money, and travel, all while spending less and saving more.

All the Hacks is an award-winning podcast trusted by more than a million listeners that turns big ideas into quick tactical moves you can start using today. The host is my friend Chris Hutchins, a financial optimizer who has sold two companies and racked up millions of rewards points. I call him sometimes when I have a really tricky question about travel. or points. He knows the answer. A great place to start is with the episode where Chris shares his top 50 ways to upgrade your life, money, and travel. I actually joined Chris recently on the show to share how to actually spend your money in a way that creates joy, whether you're earning

40K or 400K. We talked about the four numbers you need to know why lifestyle creep is a myth and how to find your worry-free number, including how to start living your rich life now. You can check it out. It's episode 237, How to Design a Rich Life at any income. On Chris's podcast, every episode delivers at least one tactic you can plug right into your own life. Could be a money hack that increases your net worth or routine that boosts your productivity. Search for all the hacks. That's all the hacks in your podcast app. Hit follow and start upgrading your life today.