I Will Teach You To Be Rich - 5. “I paid off $50,000 of debt, but I still feel guilty buying toothpaste”

Episode Date: August 17, 2021

Sheena has paid off a huge chunk of her student debt. Peter wants to plan a trip to Japan for their 10th anniversary and decorate their apartment, but Sheena’s first reaction is, “How will we afford it?” Money is one of the first things she thinks about. She thinks about it every day, even when buying toothpaste.  Sheena is clearly terrified of money. She can’t even feel proud that last year mid-pandemic, she paid off $15,000 of her credit card debt! When I ask her how she’ll feel when her debt is paid off, she says “Better...I hope?” But I know it won’t happen unless she changes her money psychology. Sheena and Peter’s story is an example of how we can punish ourselves unnecessarily when we grapple with finances with an all-or-nothing approach. Sheena has created a financial cage in her own mind -- but she also has the keys to get out. Listen in to understand how just a few shifts to her money psychology -- and a surprising financial strategy -- will let her take control of her money. Connect with Ramit Website Instagram Twitter Facebook YouTube Linkedin Produced by Crate Media.

I think it's really upset because he wants me to be more positive and he wants to be able to do things with his money. And sorry, it makes me feel bad. It's okay. It makes me feel bad that I can't like give him those things. I can see it in her face. I can see her calculating. Before we even look at like hotel prices or like,

like no prices at all, I can see you're already coming to the conclusion that we can't afford it. I think it's really frustrating. I wanna be free. Like I feel like I have this chain around me and I can't live my life. Because if I buy something nice or I do something for our apartment, I just have this voice in the back of my head like, why are you buying this?

Why aren't you paying off your debt? We talk a little bit on surface level about money, but I don't think we've ever really talked like this. And so it's kind of the first time I'm hearing it. Welcome to I Will Teach You To Be Rich. I'm Ramit Saiti and my guests today are Shina and Peter, who are both climbing their way out of substantial debt. For today's episode, I'm going to focus on Shina's debt because it's causing both of

them a lot of stress. Shina has already paid off tens of thousands of dollars, and she also knows exactly when the rest will be paid off. But she just can't seem to stop feeling bad about money. She thinks about it all the time when she's at the grocery store, when she's eating out, and also when she and Peter are talking about their future together. Now, within minutes, I knew there was something a lot deeper than the debt itself. Remember, this is almost never a math problem. I knew there was something a lot deeper than the debt itself.

Remember, this is almost never a math problem. Let's start with her family. And as we go along, listen for the clues. We never really talked about money. Looking back now, as an adult, I see that there was a lot of bad credit card usage. My mom, she actually just told me that she cut out of fan credit card usage. My mom, she actually just told me that she cut out of her credit cards yesterday.

I know like when I would help my grandmother pay her bills, I know she had a large amount of debts on her credit cards and she would only pay the minimum. But I remember thinking like, oh, this is never gonna get paid off. And you know, when she died, that fell on the family. So selling stuff to pay off the debt. And so I don't think my family really

handled money very well. But it's kind of frustrating. But also, I don't really blame them. I understand. I understand why they were in that situation or in that situation. When I was going to college, my mom's like, take out as many as much loans as you can, like the full amount. And so that's what I did. And so I graduated with, you know, like $70,000 of student loans. And I don't think my mom realized what kind of burden that would put on me in the future. At constant debt, I have to pay it every month.

And it's not cheap, it's like $400 and some dollars a month. And I've gotten it down a lot, and around $15,000 now left. So it feels better because I'm like, okay, it's getting there, like I've paid it down from $70,000. But yeah, it's definitely like always felt like a burden or like this dark cloud over me. But like I'm constantly thinking about my debt. Anytime I have to or want to buy something,

anytime like I'm going to the grocery store, I'm thinking, okay, how much money do I have? Oh, I don't have as much as I need. So there's like, health things that come up. Like I just had to get an MRI and it was $500. And I'm thinking, well, I have to pay that off. So it wouldn't be that bad if I didn't have the student loan debt and then the credit card debt

on top of that. So I feel like I can't really pay for these necessities that come up. To people in debt, one of the most common feelings they have is one step forward, two steps back. There's even a concept called the poor tax, where poor people actually end up paying more for things like shoes because they can only afford to buy poor quality shoes. Those are the same shoes that break more frequently than higher quality

shoes. So here in Sheena's case, she's making progress and then something comes up that sets her back again. After one time, two times, three times, it's not just frustrating. It starts to feel hopeless. You have to remember, we're not robots. If you and I try something and fail repeatedly, the vast majority of us just give up. So when you look at Shina's behavior through this lens, one step forward, two steps back, I did everything right, and I can't seem to get ahead. Her feelings start to make a lot more sense. Like a year ago, we were talking about going to Japan. And it's something that we really wanted to do for our 10th anniversary, which is this year.

And my first thought was how we're going to make that happen. I have so much debt, I need to pay that off first. How am I going to do this? Like, I don't have money to save. And then I was looking into where we would want to stay and how much that's going to cost, because, you know, we don't want to go to Japan and stay in like a really cheap hotel, like we want to have the full experience. And it just kept adding up.

And I'm like, how would I do this? It's like a pretty common pattern where I can see it in her face. I can see her calculating, like telling things up, before we even look at hotel prices or like no prices at all, I can see you're already coming to the conclusion that we can't afford it. It's frustrating and it's also a bummer

because it's supposed to be a nice thing, right? It's supposed to be, so 10th anniversary, it's not even about like staying at night hotels. Like if it's not in the cards for us to have this kind of you know Extravagant trip my thinking is always oh, we can always find something that we would enjoy It doesn't have to be extravagant, but I can see it on a face already that she's already Decided it's not possible and I think it's really frustrating. I've always had this mindset Okay, we'll figure it out and if, and even if it's not the most ideal,

we can find something that is enjoyable for us. I get really frustrated, I think, and I kind of shut down, and I just give up, oh, it's going to cost this much. You know, I just kind of go into the same thing where I'm explaining, I don't have this money set aside, I have too much debt. It's not possible for us to do this. I think it's just ingrained in me. I've been in so much debt for so long, you know, like paying off student loans or I was kind of stupid in my 20s. And so I'm like I'm still paying for

that is like, you know, a 35 year old woman. And so my plan right now is like, I need to put all my money I can to my debt and I need to get that off. And I don't have this plan or like, way of thinking where I do that and live my life. And I think that is a very hard thing for me to figure out. Did you catch all those clues? Sheena feels frustrated by her dead. Okay fine. But then Peter points out that she instinctively says no to anything for the two of them, meaning her dead is now affecting their relationship. And did you hear what he said? He said, I could see it in her face, even for something like their 10-year anniversary. You know what I found most interesting though? In one sentence, Sheena says she basically wants to give up, but then just a few seconds

later, she says she has a plan, and that plan is to put all her money towards her debt. This is a really big clue. This is all or nothing thinking. The idea that you either have to go 100% all in or you're a total failure. And this is really the key to what's going on here. You feel bad for long enough. You either completely give up or if you stay in the game, you're very likely to develop tunnel vision. Listen to Shina as she grapples with this. I think it's really upset because he wants me to be more positive and he wants to be able to do things

with his money. Sorry, it makes me feel bad. It's okay. It makes me feel bad that I can't like, those things. Okay. And if you could, how would you, what would it mean to you

if you were able to think positively? I think it would be better for him and me, but I do think it would be more supportive of him. I think I have like an all or nothing mentality a lot of the time, which he's like, I don't know, we'll figure something out. So I think that's exactly what happens is

that I'm sitting there thinking about it and I'm like, well, we can't do it. Like, for example, we redo our apartment, and when we were initially talking about it, she's like, has this kind of reaction where it's like overwhelmed already before even sort of broke it down. And I'd even mention like, okay,

maybe we'll just paint the walls or get rid of stuff. It wasn't just the idea of redoing our apartment, overwhelmed her. It made me feel like I'm always taking the lead, whereas I want her to feel like she's a part of the process too. She know what do you think about what Peter just said. I'm sorry.

It's gonna take your time. I'm mixing, it makes me a little sad, that maybe he thinks I'm putting a lot of this on him to figure things out. And I do, I do kind of shut down. Right away, I get, it is, it's because I get overwhelmed. And I don't know if that's just because I'm constantly stressed about death and my knee, but it makes me feel sad.

And it's hard because we never, I mean, we talk a little bit on service level about money, but I don't think we've ever really talked like this. And so it's kind of the first time I'm hearing it. It's just kind of like a nagging voice, you know, just always there. Like, you shouldn't be buying this. You shouldn't be buying socks right now. You have socks like stupid little things like that, you know? I get a sense of a lot of guilt falling us around

with how we spend money and like, for example, like we just had a stacation in New York and you know, it was a special that we split and all of a sudden the entire time. Even though we were in this nice room, member, old and room service, you can just feel it. It was like another person there where it's like, do not enjoy this. You can't enjoy this, right? Yeah. Even though we set money aside, we just couldn't enjoy it as much as we wanted to.

Who's that third person there hovering over? Is it the same? Is it the same person that you said she nagged you in your head? Yeah. Yeah. I feel it. Did you know this? Sheena, did you know that Peter knows about this voice? I don't know if I really knew. I think you get a sense of it. Yeah, you get a sense of it. If I'm preempting your response to like decorating the apartment or coffee then I know it's there. Of course you both do. You're a couple. You know each other. You don't even have to say anything. If I can stick to my schedule and nothing else comes up, it'll be March 2022.

And when is your debt pay-off thing? It is October 2022. I have to tell you that of the people I speak to who have debt, 95% of them do not know when their debt will be paid off. So you are in a very elite group of people. I would probably look at my finances too much and for more people. Yeah, we should talk about that. Yeah.

Lots of hints here, lots of clues. First, I'm really impressed that she didn't know his debt payoff date. Almost nobody knows this. That demonstrates she's not acting like an ostrich. She's not trying to put her head in the sand and avoid her debt. She's really done some serious work

to take control of her debt. And in fact, she's paid off over $50,000. If you want to know how to pay off your debt and create a debt pay off plan, you can learn how using my book. But also, notice that she constantly beats herself up. Money is not a source of accomplishment to her. It's not opportunity or growth. It's guilt, shame, negativity. When you hate money, you will make very, very bad decisions around it. Listen as I probe about her feelings around money.

When your debt is paid off, do you think your attitude toward money will change? I don't know. That's what I'm a little worried about. I'm worried that, I don't know, That's what I'm a little worried about. I'm worried that, I don't know, like, that I'm going to get to this place and that I'm going to feel the same way. Am I actually going to feel better when I get to that point?

I really hope so, but I don't know if I'm going to, I don't know if I'm going to stop worrying about money. Like, I would love to not have to worry, oh, do I have enough in my checking account to pay for these groceries, or do I just use my credit card because I don't have enough? I think about it in terms of also fitness and finance is very similar. I think about, we got in shape for our wedding and then we kind of

slack off a little bit afterwards. I feel like that's a possibility too, even though her debt would be paid and she doesn't have this cloud above her, I still feel like she might have that guilt still around spending money. I mean it's a possibility because then I would be terrified like oh my god I can't you know I can't have a crit anything on my credit cards but be maybe a little scared to spend that, but I would be hoping that based on my spreadsheet

that I do have, that I wouldn't have to look at that intensely because I wouldn't have all these little other bills to pay. I would be hoping that it would be okay because I would have my budget of how much I could spend and then I would pay it off every month, which I've never been able to do that before. I think that you're at a two-twirds money is not going to change at all. If you keep doing what you're doing, I think that you are going to pay off your debt. I have total confidence in that.

And I think that you are going to continue worrying because it's comfortable and it's what you've known. You already have a plan. So if you were going to stop worrying, you would have already been doing it. That little third party franny, or whatever we want to call her, franny's going nowhere unless you force franny out, and that takes a lot of work.

That takes the work that you're doing right now. I know many, many people who pay off their debt or even worse, they make a lot of money and they still feel the exact same way. And they thought that the money and the spreadsheet would solve it, but it's two totally separate problems, totally. It scares me a little bit. Because I don't want to feel like that.

I don't want to keep feeling like this. Yeah. So tell me what I need to do to change. So I don't feel like this in the future. I don't want to go, I don't want to be living in a spreadsheet. But I do. I track every little thing that I've bought. Yeah, I used to do it every night.

I don't anymore. I do it every Friday. My Friday finances. And how does it make you feel when you do it? I make me feel in control. Oh wow! Tell me more about that. It makes me feel like I have a handle on my money and I'm doing what I need to do. Okay then if that's true then why do you feel guilty when you buy toothpaste?

Okay listen closely. Sheena is about to have a major breakthrough. You know, cause I'm probably doing it wrong on that. I'm trying to pay off my credit cards maybe too soon. So what happens is that I put this huge chunk of money onto my credit cards and I give myself $150 to spend for the week, which doesn't even cover my food anymore. So every little thing I buy takes out of that $150

a week and that runs out pretty fast, especially if all of a sudden I have to get two days. You didn't budget for that, I'm sure. Nobody does. I did not. So yeah, those little things come come into play and then I have to end up using my credit card again. And are you, is there a realization you're hearing as you talk about this out loud? That I'm not budgeting properly. What does that mean specifically? Like I am putting too much money on to paying off my debt. But I just feel like I need to be paying it off fast.

Almost like it's all or nothing. Yeah, I didn't even think that all or nothing really needs that bottom. All or nothing thinking shows up again. This is the idea that if you're watching what you eat and you suddenly have a few chips your entire day is ruined. So screw it. I'm going to have a pizza and chips and ice cream. Either I'm perfect, or I won't even participate at all. Now of course hearing this sounds absurd. We know that when kids start to learn how to ride a bike,

they suck! Every kid listening to this, you suck at riding a bike. You don't know anything. You can't even stay up on those two pedals. But guess what? We don't expect them to be some racing champion. These kids are just happy. They're having fun. Yeah, they're just happy if they can write upright for 10 seconds. But as adults, we are so unfamiliar with what it feels like

to start from ground zero that we create these all or nothing scenarios. Either we are 100% great, or we're not going to play Adal. Remember my 85% solution from my book. Getting 85% of the way there is better than dreaming about 100% and actually getting 0% of the way there. Adal. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. On this podcast you've heard me recommend therapy to a lot of couples.

Some of the couples are already seeing therapists, which I love. But if you wanted to get therapy, if you wanted to have a space where you and your partner could talk about money and any other topic, would you know where to go right now? No. A lot of us would search. We'd find a bunch of options, but how do we know who's right? How do we know what to do next? It can be overwhelming.

So if you've been thinking about therapy, give better help a try. It's online, you'll get matched with a licensed therapist after filling out a brief questionnaire. You can also switch therapists for no additional charge. One of the things that I love on this podcast is being able to help couples discover a new way of seeing and talking about money. But this is just one conversation.

A lot of us need a lot more conversations in order to lock in change. That's why I think therapy is really important for a lot of us. My wife and I saw a therapist to help us deal with our early money conversations. And therapy gave us a place and a time to talk about how we felt. Discover your potential with better help. Visit betterhelp.com slash remit. Today to get 10% off your first month, that's betterhelp.htlp.com slash remit. R-A-M-I-T. There are a couple things that drive me insane.

One, when I post a picture eating Mexican food in L.A. and 7,500 people helpfully tell me that their favorite hot sauce is topat Tio. And second is getting spam calls or spam texts on my phone. I mean, how many times a day do you get a call from some unknown number, or better yet a text from X, F, 3, 5, 4, Z, telling you that there's a problem with your electric bill? I'm busy. I want to focus on my day.

I do not want to deal with spam phone calls. That's why I want to let you know about this episode's sponsor, Nomo Robo Max. Every single unwanted call is stopped dead in its tracks. Calls from people you know, still get through just like normal. And for those unknown numbers that might be legit, like clients or delivery people, Nomo Robo's call screener will jump in and let you know exactly who's calling and what they want. Then you get to decide if you want to take the call. It even protects against spam and scam text messages.

And the people over at NOMO Robo take your privacy very seriously. There's no ads, no tracking. The best part is, it's affordable. You can protect your whole family for less than $7 per month. So if you want to protect yourself and your family from phone scams, go to nomorobo.com slash remit for a 14-day free trial. That's n-o-m-o-r-o-b-o.com slash remit, R-A-M-I-T. Of course, it hits us in every part of life. So for just a moment, I want you to inhabit my world, what I would be saying if I heard

somebody in your situation, and I'm going gonna repeat a few facts that they've shared with me, and then you play the role of me, and you give me some advice. So here are the facts. I've had debt for a long time. I paid off a considerable amount, and I'm within striking distance of paying it off. I know the exact month and year.

I check my finances every Friday, so I know it makes me feel in control. Throughout the week, things tend to come up, and then I overspend. I put it on my credit card, it makes me feel bad. I hear a third voice in the back of my head telling me, that's bad, you shouldn't do that. What advice would you give me? I think that maybe you shouldn't be putting as much onto paying off your debts so that

you have that amount centricied for things that come up during week, but that feels very wrong for me to say. Why? Because having this high interest debt is just adding, you know, every month, there's just more and more interest added on to it. So, it's just bad to have that much debt. What I want to point out to you is that money is multi-dimensional. You're looking at it from the mathematical perspective, which is great. We always want to understand the math. You know your

debt payoff date, you know your interest rate. awesome. But I want you to really reflect on the moments where you have gotten overwhelmed or visibly upset on this call. Let me give you a hint. It wasn't around the math. What was it around relationship and how it's affecting that? Yeah. Yeah. And so you are following the rules, but they are the rules that you set up for yourself. And to tell you the truth, they're making you really upset.

So, what I see when I hear you is someone who has accomplished something extremely impressive, 70K to less than 15K is amazing, knows their debt payoff-off date is willing to come here and talk to me and engage with your partner but I just see that this whoo you created for yourself is so tightly wound. It's like a rubber band that's ready to snap and if I could simply suggest one thing would be what if we just loosen that just a little?

What does it feel like when you hear that? I think it's a little scary because, then that means, you know, I live with my debt for a little bit longer, but I think it might be the right thing to do. I think it would make me feel a little bit more at ease to how it looks up here. All right, this sounds good. Let's figure out a plan of attack starting with how much China is spending.

$1860 per month of credit card debt off, is that correct? At least. I said. So I want to say it's really counterintuitive to slow your payments on debt. intuitive to slow your payments on debt. But because you were both really disciplined about your fitness journey, I'm gonna use the fitness analogy. You know that if you cut your calories too much, it's possible that you just stop the program altogether.

And I think we've all experienced this. We go a little too aggressive and then we just zoom back the other way. Or perhaps you stretch it to 15 months or 16, whatever the number may be, but you're actually going to sustain it and not feel bad the entire time. Most importantly of all, you are starting to work on your money psychology before the debt is paid off. You go down this route, you pay off your debt, you're still going to be feeling bad and you're going to have franny sitting there in the corner for the rest of your life.

To me, that's a failure. Because on paper, you're going to be debt-free, but I know so many other IWT readers, they have made so much money and they are still living guilty lives, the guilt that they started feeling at the age of 15 or 20. That's a failed rich life to me. Yes, you are going to pay a little bit more in interest. That's okay. It's rare for me to say this, but it is okay because the rules, except for yourself,

are so strict and stringent, they're causing you to not live a good life. It's starting to have serious costs. It's starting to be a barrier between the two of you. Yeah, I see that because last year alone I paid off 15,000 just on my credit card. And that was with, you know, partially, like, not having a job too, apart of the year. So I was really, really, really strict and it was not fun.

It was not fun. I don't really even feel that much better right now paying all that off. So I could basically wear your saying. Now that Shina and Peter have a plan that's realistic, we need to do a little bit of what I call failure expectation. When we're creating a plan, I always like to talk about the risks, especially when people are about to change the way that they interact with money. I want to inoculate them against what

can go wrong because it's going to help them understand what pitfalls to look out for, and that's going to make them much more likely to succeed. understand what pitfalls to look out for, and that's gonna make them much more likely to succeed. I mean, obviously there's gonna be more interest, but I really can't see risks with it, because I actually feel it would be less risky, because right now if I run out of money in my checking, I'm going to my credit card.

So it actually seems safer to me in a way, a safer option in terms of the money. Yeah, I don't see other than extending the time frame for a payoff. I think the longer payment plan might scare her in the beginning, but if that gets her more time to enjoy her money and relax a little bit about it, she'll work through that and get over it after a little bit. I guess the worst fear would be just running my credit cards up so much that I can't afford to pay the minimum and pay for rents and pay my state of loans. Like that's the worst thing that could happen. And what happens then?

My credit score goes down and I get charges on top of that because I'm not paying them in a month. And then- So just kind of like digging myself into a bigger hole. Yeah, and then what happens? I don't know. I always like to ask because, you know, we have these low-grade fears often. And with money, I would say yours has been more than a low-grade fear.

And you're talking about groceries and you're thinking about money. But when I ask, what's the worst that could happen? It's, well, I might get more debt. Okay, what does that mean? Well, my credit score might go down. But who really cares about your credit score? What does it matter? Yeah.

So what is the worst fear? Do you think about your relationship? Very scary. It's just scary. It's like you're thinking me emotional thinking about it. I just think it it puts so much stress in my life and I don't think I realize for a long time how much stress it gets me. I don't want to have to think about it. I don't want to have to think about it. I just feel like there's no end in sight.

It's just the stress and I don't want that. I want to be free. Like I feel like I have this chain around me and I can't live my life. Because if I buy something nice or I do something for our apartment, I just have this voice in the back of my head like, why are you buying this? Why aren't you paying off your debt? People who have financial problems

love to talk about their problems. My job is to get them out of that cycle and to gently focus them on solutions. Here I have a situation where she knows money psychology runs deep and it's affecting a relationship with Peter. So what I did was I asked them to put themselves in each other's shoes and verbalize how their partner probably feels.

This is a really, really difficult exercise. And I'm using it because it forces them to get out of their heads and out of their automatic responses. Okay, I'm going to try to think like how you think we talked about the D-Pantras. And if you continue how I did, I would feel very sad. I feel like you shut down, the show down like the whole idea. Money is emotional. I would be surprised if you weren't.

When you're talking about something you've probably never talked about at this level. I think you might feel kind of nervous to bring up anything else in the future, maybe, but you couldn't contribute to the relationship because I would just shut it down, shut down an idea. So maybe that would make you feel and scared to communicate to me.

I would feel frustrated because I want to do things with you. I want to enjoy life with you, but it doesn't seem like I can. And it frustrates me. And it can make me feel like I'm not part of or I'm not fun. I'm not I can't be a part of this relationship because there's something wrong with me like I can get out of this whole and it frustrates me and I know it frustrates you and I don't know what to do about it. That's what I feel like when I think about what you must be going through. She know what do you think about what Peter says? I think it's pretty accurate. Yeah, I think I think, you know, I feel like

I can't get out of the hole because I've been in it so long. I guess what I would add is that I just feel like I can't really enjoy life without feeling bad about it I feel guilt. Yeah, I don't think we've ever really talked about. Yeah, we've never really talked about life after debt Yeah, you never have even though you had a debt pay off plan You never once talked about what happens the day after well, let's start at the ground level What if you could go to the grocery store

and never, ever think about how much toothpaste costs for you? That would be amazing. The simple things in life, we start there. Never you do not have to price shop on this toothpaste first. You just get, you wanna get to be my guest. Okay, what would the next level be? If we could try, you know, when things open up, if we could try like a new cocktail bar that we love to do. Great. How many times per month?

Looks to be at one. And how many drinks? Three each. How are we really nice? Yeah. Yeah. So part of changing your psychology psychology both of you is to Really start to be able to dream bigger. We have earned the right to think bigger What are you gonna do the first month after you paid off? We should go for a nice dinner. We've gone to nice dinner We always go to nice dinner. I feel like we should go like upstate or something like we always talk about going to a road trip Going somewhere outside of the city,

spending some time together, and hopefully, Fran is not there. Fran is not going to be invited along. I feel like we will be able to talk about things more and be more optimistic about things you want to do, or redecorate in the apartment apartment or trips or even you know Think came out going to a nice bar when things open up again Like I think she'll be more optimistic and excited about it And I would feel less stress in terms of approaching her or having to figure things out all the time She's always worried about money and I feel like we can feel more like a team

with how we decide to spend our time and money and lives together. That's what I was thinking, too. I love this episode because we had so many dynamics at play. Sheena's dad, her impressive payoff, but her focus on money as a source of stress and shame. And of course, how that was affecting her relationship with Peter. Here's my suggestion to you.

Listen to this episode with your partner. And talk about the conversation. Use this as a sounding board. Ask your partner what they noticed. Ask them if they've ever felt overwhelmed with money. Tell them a time where you have. If you find that either of you are judging throughout this episode, pause for a second. Try to understand the ways that you are irrational with your money, or that you are emotional,

or just plain weird about money. You might be surprised. And remember, in personal finance, we overvalue math and undervalue psychology. This podcast is meant to help you change that. I received a follow-up letter from Peter and Shina a few months after we spoke. Now, you can read the full letters at iwt.com slash follow-ups, but here's an excerpt of what Peter wrote. Since the show, we have zero tension talking about anything money related now. We've booked a trip together without having to question if we could afford it.

Even upgraded our seats, we started saving for a bigger apartment, which includes $15,000 for fees and movers, and ended up saving too fast. Being on your podcast really took our relationship to a new level. We just want to thank you so much. To read the full letter, go to iwt.com slash follow-ups and enter your email address. Thanks for listening to i will teach you to be rich. Here's what you'll find next week on the i will teach you to be rich podcast. I do wish my parents helped more a hundred percent but they're very old school, they believe the husband should be making that believed the husband should be making

many of the husbands should be providing and everything. It becomes a big fight and we try to make up at the end of the night, but it adds up. We were living month to month and I didn't think it was going to be like that before we got married. If you want me to provide, we got it down great. If you want me to provide, we've got it down great. I can't keep providing a lifestyle that we can't afford.