Ideas - Canadian universities as safe havens for scholars-in-exile

Episode Date: June 13, 2025

There is a growing number of researchers who are 'forcibly displaced' worldwide. Thirty-four Canadian universities and colleges are currently hosting scholars who’ve left their jobs and homes to find safety. Scholars-in-exile from dozens of countries gathered at Carleton University in Ottawa to discuss ways to support free thinking and research whenever it is threatened.

At Desjardins Insurance, we know that when you own a law firm, your bar for everything is high. That's why our agents go the extra mile to understand your business and provide tailored solutions for all its unique needs. You put your heart into your company, so we put our heart into making sure it's protected. Get insurance that's really big on care. Find an agent today at Desjardins.com slash business coverage. This is a CBC podcast. Tell me your name and what you do. My name is Olga Chernovol. Originally, I'm from Ukraine and I came to Canada in June

2022 after Russian invasion of Ukraine. Basically right now in Canada, I'm a scholar at risk. I have been a scholar at risk for more than around three years. Welcome to Ideas. I'm Nala Ayad. What makes you at risk? Just because of Russian invasion, you know, because of my field of expertise. I have been working in the private sector in the field of anti-corruption, due diligence,

corporate intelligence, anti-money laundering. So my field put me in danger. That's why I had to flee. 34 Canadian universities and colleges are currently hosting scholars who've left their jobs and homes to find safety, becoming, in the jargon of migration studies, forcibly displaced. It's difficult to count the number of forcibly displaced people around the world. According to UN estimates, it's rising sharply. A decade ago, they put the figure at around 50 million. Today, we're at 122.5 million people.

Between Sudan, Gaza, and many other places, this figure has continued to rise. Filippo Grande, the UN High Commissioner for Refugees. Forcible displacement isn't always a one-way ticket. Whatever drove people from their homes may be temporary. Wars end. An armed group targeting a person or their family may stop operating. Climate-related disasters can make someone's village or region unlivable for years,

but then a return might be possible. So, for those 122.5 million, profound questions remain open. Should I abandon my career and start over? Is it safe now to speak freely about the government of my home country, or will that ruin my chance of ever returning home? For scholars especially, figuring out how to keep working, and what to say in public, and what not to say, becomes a challenge. As it has for Olha Chernovoly, an expert on anti-corruption methods.

When the Russian invasion happened in February 2022, I actually was in Kiev because I'm originally from the capital of Ukraine. anti-corruption methods. Usually it took 15 minutes from my apartment to go to a country house, but that time it took me two days. Eventually after two days I was able to reunite with my mom in a country house and that time actually I realized that I'm in real danger because as you know probably from the news Russians were around all Kiev, almost all Kiev. So basically being in a zone almost 10 days, hearing explosions, seeing helicopters, Russian soldiers came near like 800 meters to my house. And I understood that I'm in danger just because of my professional field, working in anti-corruption, anti-money laundering, financing terrorism, right? At the same time, like, I'm a professional lawyer. As I have

heard before, Russians were looking for lawyers who actually know the structure of the government system because it's easier to take over for them if they have such people. So it was kind of interesting experience for me, like in the movies, you know. March 6th, I crossed border, Ukrainian-Polish border. I spent three months in Europe, particularly in Germany, as a displaced person. During my stay, I learned about Canadian program, emergency program for Ukrainians, and I decided that

I have to apply. Allha found a temporary safe haven at Carleton University in Ottawa. She's now working on short-term contracts, like so many in academia, and continues her research on anti-corruption policies in Ukraine since its independence in 1991. I always say I never experienced such type of hospitality and kindness as I experienced in Canada. Without all of this support, I would not be able to accomplish what I have accomplished already. During these three years, you know, funding from the Scholar at Risk program gave me the ability to introduce

the anti-corruption in Ukraine to the international environment. Olha's international reputation has grown while she's been here. Among her many accolades, she was elected to the Royal Society of Canada's College of New Scholars, Artists and Scientists. It's a recognition that Olhaz's expertise has value beyond Ukraine's borders. I was able to see different perspectives of corruption problem, you know, why people use it, the psychology of this. Everyone wants to prevent corruption, but no one doesn't know how to actually do that.

From my perspective, every country has its own unique background with a corruption issue. So if we're saying about measures to prevent or reduce this issue in particular country, we have to take a look what is the grounds of it, why? Because usually people think that all corruption can be reduced if you punish people for doing that. But not always it works.

In May 2025, Carleton University held a gathering for scholars like Olha who are taking refuge in Canada. The goal was to think up new and bigger ways for Canadian universities to respond to the growing number of researchers forcibly displaced around the world. IDEAS producer Tom Howell visited the conference where he moderated the opening panel discussion. Fundamentally we're here I think to talk about what happens in the lives of scholars and I would like like you all, in fact, to just tell me a little about what has happened to you. When did you first decide or think of or have the ambition to be a scholar at a university? As an Afghan woman and growing up in a conservative context, and as you know,

in some Middle Eastern countries, women are not allowed to continue their education or having jobs. So it makes you more motivated to just continue and to fight for your rights. The first speaker on our panel is Zahra Nazari. She's an expert in digital tech and electrical engineering. It was not an easy journey, but I tried a lot and also my family, they supported me. So yeah, it started from being a very young girl. Now, were you the first in your family to attend a university? Yes, because I'm the first child. So it was, yeah.

What do you remember of those first years when you were studying? My bachelor degree, I did that in Afghanistan. So that time it was the first years of peaceful government in Afghanistan after Taliban. As students, we were very hopeful and very happy that we can continue our education because before that, during the Taliban time, women, they were not allowed to go to school, even to school.

So that time it was really, I mean, happy time and very hopeful, but unfortunately it was very short. You completed your degree though. Yes, I completed in Afghanistan. Graduation day, did you attend your graduation? Yes, I did. And after that, I went to Japan for my master's degree

and PhD, and I also had the opportunity to go back to my country and to serve as an assistant professor. But the next generation, the new generation, they were not very fortunate to complete their education. I was a student, underground political movement leader. In Yemen. In Yemen. In Sana'a University, the main university. This is Mustapha Bahran, physics professor and the former minister of energy in Yemen. And I was taken by the political security. I was imprisoned before I finished graduation. I graduated.

I was imprisoned and actually tortured. But nonetheless, exactly like what you said, something like this will give you actually more motivation once I got out of prison to sort of be more energetic and more focused. So I actually was able to finish, there was one year left in my undergraduate, finish and I was top of my class. Then I got one of the USAID scholarship, the very department that's being closed. And that scholarship got me to the United States, to the University of Oklahoma, to do my PhD. I'm actually very grateful. Let me say to everybody that thank you USAID. And did you ever consider, because you were studying in the States, you said, did you

consider just staying there and not going back to Yemen? Oh, I did. But then somebody called from the president office and they said, Mustafa, come back, we will need you and stuff like that. And then I did go back and then my first job was a science advisor for the president. Right. And why did you respond to that call? When we, if we are forced to exit our countries, our countries never exit us. So Yemen will stay in my heart, although I'm a Canadian now, but Yemen is stay in my heart. And I couldn't, if I have a call from Yemen, I have to respond.

Going to university as someone who went to high school and grew up in the suburbs of Toronto, it was the obvious thing to do. It wasn't sort of a great challenge or hurdle to overcome. It was a means to an end. The third speaker on our panel isn't a forci or hurdle to overcome. It was a means to an end. The third speaker on our panel isn't a forcibly displaced person himself. He's James Milner, born and raised in Canada, and now a political scientist at Carleton.

He's written many books and edited many books on refugee issues, and he directs a project called the Local Engagement Refugee Research Network. The moment when I decided that continuing my studies and becoming a scholar was the path for me, was a moment when I was actually sitting in a transit center for displaced Congolese in Northern Cameroon.

I had the great privilege of working at the time with the UN's Refugee Agency, UNHCR, helping those who've been displaced find solutions in other countries. And it was a moment where I realized that the work of documenting stories and advocating for those individuals was really important and fulfilling pursuit. But there were bigger questions that needed to be answered. And so the decision that I made one night under the stars was that that was a way that I could make a contribution to wrestle with those big questions that those

working on the front line in the fields, they knew what the questions were, but didn't have the time and the opportunity and the resources to answer those questions. Zahra Nazari earned her PhD researching intelligent engineering systems and analyzing complex data sets. Back in Kabul, she too wanted to work for the public good. When I was in Afghanistan, I was director of digital skills at the Ministry of Communications. I led national programs that trained hundreds of young women in digital literacy and coding. Digital literacy, yes. Yeah, because you know that in these days, coding, AI, data analytics are very important.

If someone know these kind of skills and if they can learn these things, so they can easily find jobs and also they can be included in the international market. I was very fortunate to have a supportive father. He was the main supporter and even more than my mother. He encouraged me to continue my education and to do whatever that I want to do. But I was also connecting with some other women that they didn't have a supportive family. So because of that, I thought that maybe I can help them. Before the Taliban returned to power in August 2021, Zahra had many irons in the fire. return to power in August 2021, Zahra had many irons in the fire.

Yes. At that time I was working as an assistant professor at Kabul Polytechnic University and also as an executive board member at Afghanistan Telecom Regulatory Authority. And also I had my national programs for Afghan women. I was so busy working with people. Tell me what you felt were your big ambitions in your life at that point. At that point, my goal was to become a professor

and to help Afghan women and also to be able to have them in my projects and to help them to find jobs. But in August 15, suddenly everything stopped. Yeah, I had to stay at home. August 15th, 2021 was the day that the Taliban captured Kabul. Zahra tells the audience at Carleton what the moment was like. August 15th, when I was working in my office, suddenly they informed me that you have to leave your office.

I remember that it was like 10 a.m. morning, morning time. That time everything stopped for me. I didn't have a right to go out, to continue my job. I was someone without any basic rights and I was seeking for like safety. What were your options? I didn't have any options. So I just start searching for the first two weeks. I was like waiting because people were saying

that maybe they will change or maybe someone can help us. But yeah, but after two weeks, when I saw that nothing will change so I started looking for some opportunities and I contacted Scholar at Risk and also some other universities. How did you know about them? We were connected with our colleagues so we were sharing information. They informed me that if you send an email to this email address, then they will help you. So I sent an email, I introduced myself, and I shared everything about myself. And after, I think, maybe one week, I received an offer from UC Berkeley to join that university as a postdoc researcher.

That offer seemed like a quick resolution to Zara's problem, and a reward for having made herself eminently hireable, given her experience running national teaching programs and her research in data analytics and AI. But she now found herself in a strange country, without her siblings and parents, working at a temporary job and only allowed to live in that country until her work visa ran out. My future was not clear for me. I was trying a lot, reaching out to different universities and agencies, but nothing was clear. Because as you know, flow shifts are short

and job opportunities are very limited. So you're always thinking about what will happen next and how I can have a permanent job. Luckily, Canada was able to step up, at least to some extent. Zahra secured another short-term contract this time at the University of Alberta. She credits a professor there, Peter Musilek, for making it possible for her to find her feet and continue her work. First when I arrived he tried a lot to connect me with different people. For example, always he was introducing me to some new people and he tried a lot to connect me with other scholars from like Middle East countries or some other countries to feel that I'm not alone. And after that, even he tried to learn about my country, my culture.

Institutional support means a lot, but individual supports are very significant. When you are a newcomer, so you need someone to show that they understand you, they understand your situation, and they can listen to your story, they can support reaching to your goal. So that professor, he was like mentor and also supporter. And he was always ready to listen to me and guide me how I can find support or how I can connect people.

And now you're at Carleton and what is your horizon for work here? You're on a temporary contract? Yes, temporary contract. So how long will that go for? For two years. It started from February and for two years I'll be here. Yeah, okay. Well congratulations on what you've managed to do so far. Thank you. Zahra Nazari Next, I asked Mustafa Bahran what made him leave Yemen again, years after he had answered the call to return there to be the president's science advisor. In 2015, you all know this now by now because the Houthis now are very famous because of

what they are doing. So the Houthis took over the capital of Sana'a. At the time I was out of government because I got out of government in 2010. I was just a full professor at Sana'a University teaching physics. So when they arrived to power, they came to me the first day, the first time they wanted me to work for them. And I said, look, folks, I'm not good when there's war. I'm only good when it's peace. Make peace and then come to me. I'm very bad for you during violence." And they came back six months later and I said the same thing. And then a friend of mine who worked for them came to me and he said, Mustafa, they're

coming to you. Third time if you say no, you're in trouble. So you either say yes or do something else. He's basically suggesting leave. He's a very good friend. So I did. What would it have meant for you to stay at that point? Just either imprisonment or worse.

So I had to leave secretly, of course. I crossed the border to Saudi Arabia without visa, without anything. And I claimed asylum and they didn't give me asylum but they accepted me as a temporary refugee for a while because I hold a diplomatic password. So that made a difference. for a while because of I hold a diplomatic password so that's you know that made a difference so I went and and I I

Tried to I was I had an offer before that from the largest university in Saudi Arabia It's called King's wood University its budget is bigger than budget of Carlton and Ottawa and many other universities combined So and I had a very very very good offer but the at the time and in 2015 the Saudi government would not give me work permit. I was too liberal at the time. Saudi at the time was not liberal. It's getting more liberal today. So I had to find a solution. So I have a friend whose name is, hello Richard Stone, he was the news editor of Science, the magazine, very good friend of mine. I called him, he knew my, he said, oh, I have a proposal, why don't you email the Scholar Rescue Fund in New York. And I did. And I applied. And I was picked up by the Scholar Rescue Fund. And they picked me up. And I was hosted by University of Oklahoma

for one year. Then my wife decided to come to Canada. We came to Canada. And I was hosted by Carlton for my second year. I was a visiting professor for two years. Now I'm a contrast instructor who teaches the largest classes in physics. If you have the time, check the hall next door. It's a very big theater. My class has 300 students. Mustafa Bahran says he loves teaching. He's not upset to hold a less prestigious post than he used to hold in Yemen.

But nonetheless, the contrast in lifestyle is stark. For someone who was among the leading scientists in his country, a full tenured professor, founder of Yemen's National Atomic Energy Commission, now another contractor in Canada's short-term gig economy alongside much more junior scholars. My scholar at risk journey started when I was a risk in Yemen. I was surviving one day at a time. Then I moved to Saudi Arabia, north, and I was surviving one month at a time. Then I moved to United States from Saudi Arabia. I didn't work for me there. And I was surviving in the United States one year at a time. Then I moved even north to Canada,

thanks to my wife who's here. And now I'm surviving. I'm a Canadian, but job wise, I'm surviving one year at a time because I'm, you know, in the job market, I am too old. The job market, I am aged out all the time, no matter how much I apply, no matter how big my expertise is. There are more people displaced in the world today than at any time since World War II. James Milner When the world came together to create a refugee system, a combination of principles and institutions to ensure protection for refugees and to find solutions for refugees, that was in response to about 55 million people

who were displaced in Europe after World War II. Today there are about 120 million people in the world who are displaced. In the past eight years, every year, there's been a higher number every year. And that's very much wedded to a backing away of rights, a world where power overrides commitments to norms and principles. But then that's also happening at a time where global commitment to the institutions that have been set up to help ensure protection and find solutions, that's also waning. And does that awaken something in you as a patriotic Canadian? Well, it's a moment that we've faced before.

We've seen Canadian responses after the flight of more than three million people from Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia. I mean, this is very much part of Canada's identity is in being part of global responses to shared challenges. It's a moment for Canada to be able to stand and manifest the principles that we hold dear in how we contribute to global responses to displacement, and especially in response to displaced human rights defenders, especially in response to displaced scholars, those who

are the very manifestation of that struggle for rights and freedoms that we profess to be a part of. You're listening to Ideas and to an episode about scholars at risk and how Canadian universities can help them continue their work. Ideas is heard on CBC Radio One in Canada, on US Public Radio, across North America, on Sirius XM, on World Radio Paris, and in Australia on ABC Radio National.

Stream us around the world at cbc.ca.ideas and find us wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Nala Ayed. At Desjardins Insurance, we know that when you're a building contractor, your company's foundation needs to be strong. That's why our agents go the extra mile to understand your business and provide tailored solutions for all its unique needs. You put your heart into your company so we put our heart into making sure it's protected. Get insurance that's really big on care. Find an agent today at Desjardins.com slash business coverage. The Shaw Festival in Niagara-on-the-Lake presents Tons of Money, a hilarious British farce that will have you rolling in the aisles.

A young man fakes his own death and impersonates his cousin to collect a huge inheritance. What could possibly go wrong? Don't miss this side-splitting comedy, Tons of money at the Shaw. For tickets, go to shawfest.com. At Ideas, we have a birthday party coming up, ours. In the fall of 2025, the show will be turning 60. That's six decades of thought-provoking and award-winning documentaries, interviews, and discussions that crack open an idea to see how it's played out over place and time. And we'd love to invite you to join the celebration.

If you've ever been touched by an episode of Ideas, if something you heard changed the way you look at the world or affected your life in some deep way, we want to know about it. To get in touch, email us at ideas at cbc.ca with a brief outline of your story. That's ideas at cbc.ca. What Canada is doing, whether it's in New York or whether it's in Geneva, Canada is playing a leading role in trying to bring together countries that can formulate solutions together. James Milner leads the Migration and Diaspora Studies program at Carleton University. refugee agency in India, Cameroon and Guinea, as well as in Geneva. And he's written many books on the politics and practices of protecting refugees. James was on the panel at the Safe

Havens Conference for Scholars at Risk held at Carleton. He's telling ideas producer Tom Howell about the global context for the stories of displaced scholars, like his fellow panelists Zahra Nazari and Mustapha Bahran. Here in Canada there are innovations in terms of recognizing the expertise that refugees themselves have. There's a real paradigm shift that we've seen that Canada's engagement with refugees is not only in response to the protection challenges and the vulnerabilities of refugees, but a recognition of the skills and the expertise that refugees bring to Canada.

So not only through resettlement, not only through the Scholars at Risk program, but also, for example, through the Economic Mobility Pathways program, where refugees can contribute to the communities that host them. These are the kinds of innovations that we see, and These are the kinds of innovations that we see. These are the kinds of innovations that we need to keep building. And just to get a sense of your own personal feelings on this, like if you could ballpark the scale

of what you think needs to be done versus the scale of what Canada is currently doing, what's your gut feeling? I think there is a moment right now, Mustafa mentioned before about those partners that were really at the leading edge of responses to displacement and development challenges in the world, some of these traditional partners around who support, in particular the United States,

that collapse of funding has created a moment where the very continuation of these institutions is at stake. So can Canada do more in contributing financially to these institutions? Perhaps, but I think what Canada can do most significantly is to unleash the potential of community groups, of institutions like universities, of the private sector, of employers, to allow groups within Canadian society to play that leading role in contributing what they can towards solutions. So if universities are able to

respond to the needs of human rights defenders and scholars, if you know civil society groups are able to respond to the needs of journalists, if the tech sector can help respond to the needs of those who can contribute in terms of IT expertise and coding and software development. This is how we're going to be able to leverage the contributions that refugees can bring while contributing to a global solution to those who've experienced displacement. One general argument for giving scholars safe haven in Canada is based on humanitarian grounds, but there's another argument, more particular to scholars and more closely related to the

role of universities. These are, after all, people whose work is part of a collective effort and something the rest of us have a stake in – the advancement of human knowledge. To put it rather crudely, we don't want to waste a good scholar, after all the effort it took developing their expertise. For Zaha Nazari, who was the first in her family to get a university education, and to earn her doctorate during her country's 20-year window of freedom from Taliban rule, she's absolutely determined to apply those hard-won skills

and especially to spread knowledge among young women in her native Afghanistan today. Three years ago, when I arrived in Canada, I started an initiative called Women in Tech Afghanistan to empower Afghan women and girls through education in technology, AI, and data science. Through this initiative, we offer mentorship, online courses, scholarships, and also access to global learning platforms like Coursera and DataCamp.

I see these are things that you might need to pay for otherwise. And do you help people get free access? Is that correct? Yeah, it's completely free. We provide all these services for Afghan women without any cost. Currently, they are not allowed to go to schools, universities. So for me, as an Afghan woman, it's kind of a responsibility to help them in this hard situation, to continue their education, and also to find remote jobs and good opportunities.

I know that Afghan women, they want to learn, they want to have higher education, to have to have higher education, to have access to technologies and everything that all other women they have. I truly understand the demands. So because of that, I started helping them through technology because my field of study is technology and it was the only thing that I was able to do for them. Can we hope that technology provides a pathway to a kind of escape from Taliban control for some women who are currently living inside Afghanistan? Yes, of course. Because during the past three years, we saw that we can help Afghan women through technology in finding remote works and also

scholarships and also other opportunities. But the only challenge we have is it's not easy for Afghan families to provide internet access for their children. So if we can solve these kind of challenges, these kind of issues, so we can help them to continue their education, even under the Taliban regime. Do you have ideas about what a Canadian university could do to help women in tech Afghanistan, and specifically helping women who are currently

in Afghanistan who aren't able to leave? Canadian universities can provide some scholarships, special scholarships for Afghan women remotely, if they cannot help them to come here, scholarships to continue their educations because there are many Afghan women who are living inside the country. They know English and they can continue their education at international universities, but they don't have enough budget to pay for that. So we can help them a lot and they can continue their education.

And after that, they can serve their communities and they can play leadership roles for their communities. These days we have so many online courses available and if they can offer those courses to Afghan women, it would be life-changing. Zara Nazari The theme of how scholars at risk do very useful work when Canadian universities support them was a note struck loudly and repeatedly at the Safe Havens Conference at Carleton University.

Here again is Zara's fellow panelist, Mustafa Bahran, talking about his passion project. Like Zara, Mustafa is determined that the intellectual life of his home country mustn't be allowed to wither. Pi Day, that's March 14th, that's Pi Day, of 2021, I, with a number of Yemeni intellectuals around the world, established an NGO registered here in Ontario. It's called the Association of Yemeni Academics and Professionals. We have now in excess of 2,500 affiliates, all intellectuals worldwide. And our job is to discuss every month in a webinar,

one dimension of the future of Yemen, independent of what's going on. I mean, it cannot be independent, but basically we are looking for the future based on science, technology and knowledge in general. These are all Yemeni scholars largely outside of the country now or? Some inside but mostly outside, yes. Right.

And this is basically, we're asking ourselves, those who have, are fortunate to have a place outside Yemen and knowledge in general, not just academia, professional people, journalists, artists, lawyers, etc. And we are getting together every month holding a webinar, it's called IAP webinar, very famous now in Yemen, the highest quality. This is not a public webinar, these are intellectual webinars. And every month we discuss one element, one dimension of our vision for the future of humans relevant to that dimension. And over the next, let's say we've been four years, over the next six more years, let's say, we will have vision about the future of Yemen in every aspect of that future. That vision will be written collectively and it will become what we call a knowledge bank

for the future of Yemen, such that any government, any entity, any person, any group can withdraw knowledge through a church. This idea of a sort of a transnational diaspora community of scholars, is this something that you feel like is going to now be just a permanent fixture? I know Yemen and I know for the next, let me say it and I have to say it for the next 20 years or so, there will be no excellent future for Yemen. The best that can happen is violence will stop and then turmoil will continue politically other, you know. And so we will not have the kind of Yemen that we have in our mind.

So the timing, yes, all we have to do is put visions for the future of Yemen with suggested action plans. Put them there, with the hope that some momentum will be generated by such action, to bring the future closer. That's all. The role Mustafa is describing of a network of exiled scholars pooling their expertise and getting as much ready as possible for the day when their country might return to stability and peace, it has a track record. Hi, my name is Rula El-Refai. I'm a senior program specialist in the Democratic and Inclusive Governance Division at IDRC,

the International Development Research Centre based in Ottawa, Canada. The IDRC is a semi-independent agency, not exactly the Canadian government itself, but funded by it and run by a board of governors who are accountable to Parliament. The centre played a role in protecting Syrian expertise during that country's civil war. Why is it important to support these people and these at-risk scholars? Is because preserving the knowledge and the skills that they have and the expertise that they have

will ensure that one day they are able to contribute to the future re-imagining of their home countries. And so that they become an essential part of the process of transforming their societies into ones that are more democratic and more open. I can give you the example of Syria, which could not be more true of what I just said. IDRC supported Syrian opposition scholars and experts and CSO, civil society organization representatives in exile for years, including work on a Syria transition roadmap, for example, a couple of years into the revolution when there was hope for change.

So then they remained in exile. Now 14 years later, when things are opening up, the same people that we have been able to support through our many projects, research, and otherwise, these same people are flocking back into Syria. They are trying to help the rebuilding process. They are providing their expertise, and their knowledge, and their oversight to prevent another descent into authoritarianism.

And maybe I'll say one more thing. The security of these countries in conflict that seem so far away from Canada, the security and stability of these countries in conflict that seem so far away from Canada, the security and stability of those countries when they're far away, I believe, is directly connected to the security and stability in places like Canada. For Rula, who by the way was born in Lebanon

and emigrated to Canada 35 years ago during that country's civil war, this idea that Canada and Canadian universities have a role to play in supporting scholars from other countries seems like, over the long term, a pragmatic position. Not only is it morally right for us to do so, but it's in our own interest as Canadians to do so and think of these strong transnational connections. So what can we do?

We can support them to stay in their field of expertise, working as civil society organizers, working on democracy, on reform issues, allow them to conduct research, help them in their placement in different universities, even if it's not in Canada. So when we launched the Carleton University Project on support to at-risk scholars and human rights defenders,

this initiative had another component. I mean, this started right after the Taliban took over Afghanistan in 2021, and this was a kind of a quick, rapid mechanism response to these unfortunate events. So we entered into a partnership with the Aga Khan Foundation and supported through the University of Central Asia in Kyrgyzstan to support and work with at-risk Afghan scholars who remained in the region. Can you take apart the word support for me? Are we hiring someone for a job?

Are we sending them the letter of recommendation? Are we helping them find accommodation? What's happening exactly? So I'll tell you exactly what this project has done really well. So first of all, it created a network that now stands at about a thousand people, of people working in the same field. Now it touches on natural sciences, on social sciences, people working in the field. So that creates a community of practice

where people connect to each other and then exchange experiences. But also, it also means, for example, in this case of the University of Central Asia, we're supporting 18 doctoral candidates doing the research, including five women. We're supporting 19 research grants to researchers in the field of reflection on the future of their countries, but also in different other fields of study. And these are grants that would allow someone to live, right? It's not just a sort of an honorarium. To live, to conduct research, to be part of a network and then,

you know, equip people to be able to become more independent without losing their skills and knowledge that will come in handy sometime, hopefully, when they are able to contribute to the future of their own country. But but these are the kinds of things that we can do. And IDRC is only one player. And obviously, Canadian universities can do more. Canadian granting agencies that usually fund researchers and PhD students in Canada to apportion some of that money to instead fund PhD students post-docs in other countries, is that what, is it working like that or are we finding money from somewhere else? I mean I can't speak for Canadian universities, I can speak for what IDRC does and what we

do is support these scholars. If they're not in places like Canada, we support them to conduct the research and to come up with innovative solutions and to bring in the voices of those with lived experience of displacement. Many researchers I know in Canada who are interested in developing country context, they are applying to conduct research, working with researchers in the global South. And I think there's more and more of a realization that the people you are working with are not people to just conduct and help you with the fieldwork. They are people who are actually helping define the research agenda, conducting the research

with you, co-authoring the work with you, the majority of forcibly displaced populations live in the global South. And the vast majority of research that is referenced, resourced and discussed is research that emanates from global North scholars and countries. So it's time to change that equation of the political economy of knowledge production. It's got to move to become much more led, defined, implemented by those with the lived experiences of displacement,

including human rights defenders and scholars at risk. OK, Rula, thank you for speaking with me. Thank you so much, Tom. That's Rula El-Refaïe of the International Development Research Centre in Ottawa. We met at Carleton University shortly before the panel discussion with Zahra, Mustafa and James. Now to wrap up that panel discussion, I asked all three speakers for their personal view of the proper role these days for Canada and Canadian universities when it comes to all

the scholars around the world who find themselves forcibly displaced. James Milner answered first. Publicly funded institutions have a public responsibility to really do three things. First of all, to be able to teach and so to be able to train the next generation of those who can engage with these massive challenges. Second to conduct research on those issues that are of public importance. And third is really to act as a form of service, to be able to contribute to their community. Now the question is how do you define your community?

And is the community one that is immediately geographically proximate to the university? In Carleton University, when you walk through the main atrium, when you look up, you see this display of flags from countries around the world, and these are the countries from which students have come to Carleton University. So Carleton's community goes well beyond the campus,

goes well beyond the city where we find ourselves. So our responsibility, given that we benefit from the support of the public, is to contribute to solutions through our teaching, through our research, and through our service. So there is a very immediate mandated responsibility to engage in solutions where we can find them. But the second part of that is by contributing to these solutions, universities contribute in creating a means by which that talent that exists

that can come and contribute to Canada receives the support that they need. I think it's ironic, Mustafa is speaking on the panel as a physicist, one of the most famous refugees in the last century was Albert Einstein, also a physicist. The contributions that Albert Einstein was able to make to science by virtue of having an academic community that could support and host him.

Let's also remember that the overwhelming majority of refugees from Afghanistan, from Yemen, don't make it to Canada, don't make it to the global north. The vast majority of the world's refugees remain in refugee hosting countries like Turkey, like Ethiopia, like Pakistan, like Kenya. And so the role of the university is not only to be able to provide support and welcome to those who are selected to come to Canada, but also to be part of a global movement to support responses to displacement wherever displacement is found.

It is a mark of the privilege, but the social responsibility that we have as universities that by virtue of the support that we receive, that we cannot sit detached from the problems of the day. We need to be immediately and intimately engaged with solutions to those problems. Most of us, most of us, we are here temporarily. We have work permit or we have other permits to live here for limited duration. Zahra Nazary

If Canadian government can help scholars to design or to create a special pathways for them to find permanent situation, permanent position. It would be very helpful for them and also because it's not a charity. It's a smart investment in global peace, global justice, and also innovation and diversity. When you bring a scholar here, they bring knowledge, experiences, and also multilingual skills, and also international network. So gradually they can help Canadian people.

Already Canada is doing a lot. We have over 30 higher education institutions that are posting Scholars at Risk, but all of these noble, beautiful initiatives are not part of every institution. We need to institutionalize the Scholars at risk initiatives in every institution. The challenge is to establish a national program supported by government, private sector, et cetera. It becomes an institution in itself. That program is not, as you said, it's not a charity.

It's an added value to the economic well-being of Canada. Highly skilled people, they are preserving their knowledge and advancing Canadian knowledge base and global knowledge base. So if there was the money, we could be talking about 500 scholars a year, let's say, who are in situations of risk coming to Canadian universities. The hope is that what, we don't let the forces of knowledge be defeated by the forces of authoritarianism or what is the thing that you want Canadians to understand about what the stakes are here?

Yes, yes of course. Look, humanity, the advancement of humanity has been based on how the knowledge, human knowledge base is expanding. The bigger the human knowledge growth, the better the state of humanity and every dimension of human endeavor, whether it's economy, culture, you name it, social, et cetera.

So it is for us human beings to advance our knowledge and to keep that knowledge base growing in order to, as you said, defeat, let's say, the opposite knowledge, which is ignorance, let's say. All of this, it reminds me of a line in Jean Le Carre's novel The Russia House. You know, the British publisher is meeting with a Soviet nuclear physicist, and the nuclear physicist is asking him to publish a banned manuscript that would, with that knowledge, change the dynamics of the Cold War and provide evidence to resolve nuclear tension between the Soviet Union and the West. And the physicist says to the publisher,

if I have the courage to act as a hero, can you act as a merely decent human being? And I think that really raises the question of, you know, when we look at the scale of displacement and we say, why invest in a few hundred scholars and human rights defenders? And I think because that is an integral piece of the puzzle. These are not only knowledge keepers, but these are the heroes at the front line.

It's not charity. If we change the way we think about those who are displaced, and we think about these as individuals who have contributions to make, yes to Canada, but to what Canada is trying to achieve in the world. A world of justice, a world of peace, a world of prosperity. So what can Canadian universities do? What can the government of Canada do? What can Canadian society do? Is it can be part of this global movement

to support those who have that contribution to make. So it's not that Canada needs to do this alone. Canada needs to be part of a global paradigm shift in how we think about responses to displacement, not as an act of charity and altruism, but as good common sense in working side by side with those who are the agents of change in the world today. Could we please give a nice round of applause and encouragement to Staffa and Sarah and James. On ideas, you've been listening to Scholars at Risk from the Safe Havens Conference at Carleton University. Thank you to the panelists Zahra Nazeri, Mustafa Bahran and James Milner.

This episode was produced by Tom Howell. Lisa Ayuso is the web producer for ideas. Danielle Duval is our technical producer, senior producer Nikola Lukcic. Greg Kelly is the executive producer of Ideas, and I'm Nala Ayed. For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.