Ideas - For the Sake of the Common Good: Honouring Lois Wilson

Episode Date: September 17, 2024

The late Lois Wilson didn’t tell you what to believe — she just lived by example. And what an example. She was a minister, Senator, human rights advocate — and inspiration. She lived out her Christian faith in concrete terms, on the ground, in the community. Lois Wilson died on Friday at the age of 97.

Hey there, I'm Kathleen Goltar and I have a confession to make. I am a true crime fanatic. I devour books and films and most of all true crime podcasts. But sometimes I just want to know more. I want to go deeper. And that's where my podcast Crime Story comes in. Every week I go behind the scenes with the creators of the best in true crime. I chat with the host of Scamanda, Teacher's Pet, Bone Valley, the list goes on. For the insider scoop, find Crime Story in your podcast app. This is a CBC Podcast. Welcome to Ideas. I'm Nala Ayed. Well, I thought that tonight was supposed to be about the common good, but there's an awful lot about me in it.

But anyway, I obviously didn't do it by myself. And I'm so delighted that so many of you are here tonight that I've worked with over the years. over the years. That's Lois Wilson speaking from the pulpit at Rosedale United Church in Toronto. She was speaking in September 2022 at a book launch, which was also her 95th birthday celebration. Some of my grandchildren are here, three of them. Hold your hands up so they'll know who you are.

And the reason that my family isn't here is we celebrated my birthday on my birthday last April. And they didn't want to celebrate twice. I don't know why. The book is called For the Sake of the Common Good, but it isn't about her. It's a collection of pieces written by people who knew Lois, who worked with her and were inspired by her. Former parliamentarians, human rights activists, church ministers, university professors, environmentalists, all of them writing about their own work for justice, peace, and the common good. And I hope that this helps unite us and spurs us on to do some things together.

It's obvious that I didn't do anything on my own. It was always with other people. And you won't get anywhere if you're on your own. You know that. Lois Wilson died last Friday. She was 97 years old. Her life was a remarkable one. From teenage ministry on the prairies to pioneering advocacy for women to international human rights work

to beloved elder. But she made it all sound very simple. She lived out her Christian faith in concrete terms on the ground in the community. I wonder if you could tell me what makes a good sermon from your perspective as someone who's preached. Short, to the point, exegesis of scripture. But don't undervalue what you're doing. You're reaching millions more people this way than a homily in a church. That's given me something to think about for the rest of the afternoon. I just, as long as I'm pointing this in more in your direction than in my direction,

I know I'm doing a good job. Okay. Today we are rebroadcasting Sean Foley's documentary For the Sake of the Common Good, an appreciation of Lois Wilson. My name is Lois Wilson. I'm a United Church minister and a former independent senator and a former chancellor of a university in Canada. and a former chancellor of a university in Canada. So maybe I'll just begin by asking, where did this life of service and human interest come from in you? Well, I am a Christian minister, and I understand that God so loved the world, not the church.

And I was always the community minister. So I worked with the community, and I've done that all my life. And this is just an extension of some of that. And it moved me from the local congregation to the national. So I worked with Canadian Council of Churches and then into the World Council of Churches and then finally into the Senate. So it was a series of movements to the community. Do you recall how you felt called to ministry or when you realized that?

Oh, yeah. It was during the war years, way back then in 1942. And the United Church had a policy of sending candidates for ministry out into the prairies to service maybe three or four small communities during the summer that never had services the rest of the year. And since all of the men were overseas, they would take anybody, they'd take women. So I volunteered and I loved it. And I thought, you get paid for this? And I had four schoolhouses. I had to travel on bike, by bike to get there, but four services every Sunday. And I loved it. So I was there for two summers. And that convinced me that I would like to see

what this is about. And what kind of work were you doing before you took on that summer of ministry? I wasn't doing anything. I was 17 years old. Wow, that's incredible. So what did you remember loving so much about it when you were doing it? Well, what I loved is you had access to people's homes where you could talk about the meaning of their lives and you'd talk about real things instead of chit-chat. And I thought, this is wonderful. I'd like to do this. Even at 17, you didn't really have a lot of time for chit-chat? Well, it was all right, but it's not very satisfying. I'd have to say there were times that probably she felt frustrated. What I could do as a foreign minister and what we would do as a government,

we were risk-averse and there was a lot of diplomatic minuets that had to be danced. And I would have to say we're doing our best. But, I mean, she was the sharp end of the spear. Okay. Lloyd Axworthy, a parishioner in Wynick Avenue United Church, where Lois and Roy Wilson were our ministers, went on to a political career, often inspired by their notion of public service and how you live your Christianity by doing, not just by talking. Eventually became Foreign Minister of Canada, and at the same time that Lois was a senator, was able to draw upon her

talents to undertake missions both to Sudan and North Korea to open up new pathways for Canada. My parents were a United Church family. We lived in the north end of Winnipeg. Rose and Roy were then a joint ministry. Became real enablers in many of us who joined the Young People's Church. We would gather on Sunday nights and we would talk about lots of different issues. The North End at the time was a community of working people, some real patches of poverty, people who had come from Europe after the war. There was a lot of resettlement. And there was a lot of opportunity to put to work an understanding of how the world is not only diverse,

not only diverse, but sometimes can be cruel, and what part of the responsibility of someone who was an adherent to the social gospel was to try to make it better. And so we visited community centers, different cultural groups, looked at housing, talked about the world peace issues. And at the time, a very hallowed institution in Manitoba was the Texas and Older Boys Parliament. It's now become the Youth Parliament. It's still in business, where every Christmas holidays, young men at the time, eventually became co-ed, would go to the Manitoba legislature and be, for four or five days, active politicians, giving speeches, bringing in bills, learning to debate, negotiate, compromise,

moderate. And the Wilsons thought I might provide some interest in that, and I did. For four or five years, Christmas holidays were always spent being kind of proto-politic, Christmas holidays were always spent being kind of proto-politic, but it was always really faith-based in terms of its underlying premise. You know, when you're growing up, influences like that stay with you for a long time, if not forever. Tipping into the community was solidified when we moved to Hamilton because the church burned to the ground shortly after we arrived, and those were in the days where there was no phones. So I just used the Red Cross phone or anybody's phone in the community.

And I was forced totally into the community because there was no building, no office, nothing. And that solidified my commitment to, I wanted to work for the good of people in the community, the wider community. My name is Eric Weingartner. I spent a lot of time in Geneva as Executive Secretary of the Commission of the Churches on International Affairs, which is a department of the World Council of Churches. International Affairs, which is a department of the World Council of Churches. Later moved on to some other activities, probably the most striking being that I lived with my wife in Pyongyang, North Korea for about two and a half years during the famine

that was there in the late 90s. I grew up in Hamilton, Ontario, and Lois Wilson and her husband Roy were serving in Hamilton in a very experimental kind of ministry. And I probably met her there for the first time, but my parents knew her at that time and very much appreciated her, especially my mother was in love with her. But after that, I'm not sure that we met until I was working in Geneva at the World Council of Churches. Lois was a member of the central committee and I think even executive committee at that time. Later, she became one of the Central Committee and I think even Executive Committee at that time. Later, she became one of the presidents of the World Council of Churches. And I just, you know, I fell in love with her. She dove into the work that we were doing because of her conviction that Faith is not a private matter between yourself and God, but it has implications for the wider

world. So we worked very well together. I was responsible for the human rights work of the World Council of Churches at the time, and she became a really strong ally for my work, which at the time included very prominently South Korea. I'm very much dependent on the prophetic tradition in the Old Testament for my understanding of what I should be doing with my life. And Bill Blakey, who used to be the leader of the NDP from Manitoba, when he wrote in the book, said this, the prophetic tradition is the history of calling humanity

to greater forms of community than are possible within the bounds of blood, soil, nation, and class. And so I just follow that. And the community outlines for you what needs to be done, and you do what you're able to do to help community form. The prophetic tradition is the history of calling humanity to greater forms of community than are possible within the bounds of blood, soil, nation, and class.

We have the knowledge and capacity to make frugal abundance for all a reality. And it is necessary, because unless we organize that knowledge and capacity in the service of the whole, we shall have sown the wind and reaped the whirlwind socially and ecologically. Bill Blakey And one of the terms that he uses is social gospel. And it comes up in a couple of other pieces in the book. And I'm wondering if you could tell me what social gospel means to you.

Well, both Bill and I are from Manitoba, and if you're brought up there, you know what it is. I was very much aware of the influence of the good news on political matters and the necessity of interchange between the political and the community. And I was surprised when I came east and that wasn't so for many people. But for me, it was natural. And Tommy Douglas and so on. I mean, that was just our milieu. And the first place that you were taken when you visited a community was the co-op store, for example, not the mayor. That's why I was in community ministry. And I wonder if you've noticed a change from the kind of social gospel that you found such a touchstone and what we're seeing now in public life. Oh yeah, I think, you know, we're seeing the collapse of the established churches, I think.

You won't find very many people under 60 attending. So there's a whole cultural shift, which I think the church has not understood or dealt with. So I don't know what the future is, but I'll just carry on with what I know and what I think is responsible and faithful. We must be confident that what we are moving towards is in some sense what we already are, that the future for which we work is grounded in an ultimate reality that from the very first intended that we should live with and love one another, and new forms of ecumenical endeavor

between faiths and between faith and antifaith that wish to be worthwhile will work on discovering and consolidating this insight, not for the sake of unity itself, but for the sake of the world, which cries out for leadership in how to love one another rather than how to destroy one another.

The decline of that public representation of that social gospel, if you will, and what takes the place of it, that to me is the real power of his essay, is what is taking the place. With the decline of the churches, of the institutional churches, how does one speak of one's spirituality publicly? It's a good question. Yeah, where's the assembly? Where's the gathering? Well, you have to find, there is no gathering. You have to find the places in the society which are open to it, which makes it more interesting.

I guess it does, but it's quite a search, isn't it? Yeah. You really do have to seek it out. That's right, and it's not a given. And to speak out, it's interesting when you know that most of the people you're speaking to don't agree with the thing you're saying, but you say it anyway. Because that's your story, and that's your history, and it's valid. And I'm guessing that maybe one of your gifts would be to do that, but also to have your ears open. Oh, yeah.

To try and listen to the others, to find out how their experience has been so different from mine. Hello, I'm Aruna Nyanadasan. I live in the city of Bangalore in South India. I was working for 20 years in the World Council of Churches and lived in Geneva, Switzerland. But nothing is as great as being and lived in Geneva, Switzerland. But nothing is as great as being back home in my own country.

And working with women has been my strong contribution. I have written about how I first met Lois. She came to an ecumenical christian center where i was working and i was a junior program staff there but somehow of course we hit it off right away and i spent a lot of time with her she was there for i think about three months she was the first international ecumenist I met, the first feminist I met, to be very honest. So I do put her as one of the most important influences on my global ecumenical journey, as well as as a feminist. Nothing would block her from relating with another person. And that was something I watched and learned a lot from that. But also, I accompanied her to one or two national level meetings of women. At that time, there was a lot of hesitance to call the male clergy or anyone out,

certainly the bishops and the leaders of the church. At least two times, I saw her make very powerful statements, which just shook, even if not the men, it shook the women up. She basically told the men to shut up and move out of the way. Well, not in those words, but it was like that, you know, what she said, allow women to grow. And this was a meeting of theologically trained women. And she said it as it should be said. The women were so, so inspired by her.

It was for her also, because she was at that time also enjoying this experience of traveling around in India. It was quite a new experience for her. She hadn't done this anywhere else. For her, it was a learning experience. So being with the women was to learn from them. It was not about, I've come here with this great message, you listen to me. That never came out. It was always, let's do this together. Let's change the church together. At a time when we had so many missionaries who were coming and telling us what we were doing is wrong and, you know, change your ways. And she didn't appear as this

white, you know, strong missionary woman. That image she never created. She just was one of us. And this is what the women said. I mean, I don't think too many people thought of me as a minister. I don't know, because I didn't fit the norm when you were supposed to be back at the church with the ladies. But it did drive me into the political arena, finally. I resisted it for a long time. I was asked to run for parliament several times, and I certainly resisted that.

But I did end up with a Senate appointment, which I very much enjoyed, because I was able to bring all the knowledge I'd accumulated through my world travels with the World Council of Churches all around the world, and my Canadian as well. So I really loved that part. On two particular occasions, I asked her to become a special envoy. And there was a really quite ugly civil war going on with South Sudan. And I was a proponent of human security at the time. That was the basis of our foreign policy, protection of people.

I think Rose was a very strong part of her own commitment. So I asked her to do a special envoy in South Sudan and it probably led to one of the toughest issues because not only did they report on just how the Sudanese government was engaged in carpet bombing and horrible sort of destruction of South Sudanese, but also found that there was complicity of a Canadian company. consortium in Sudan were also part of it. And she identified those kinds of questions and it compelled me to do something about it. I was a little bit helpless or vulnerable because we didn't have the tools inside our federal statutes to provide any enforcement against this oil company. We tried to negotiate with them and get them to desist, but they were allowing the Sudanese government to use their air space, air drones and stuff like that. I publicly called that we would change our legislation to impose sanctions, at which point, let me put it bluntly,

the oil patch lobby went to town on me. When I went to cabinet, I lost the recommendation. went to town on me. When I went to cabinet, I lost the recommendation. And it was an example of just how economic financial power still can impose a lot of duress and also affect our decisions in a very unhealthy way. But the quality of her reporting was always very high. And I knew it came from a good place. So let me not make it sound like it was all sort of sweetness and light, because Lois could be very chiding and remind me of my omissions and transgressions along the way, but she was always doing it in a very friendly way. I'm interested in this idea of you entering into the Senate. I imagine there's a

tension between faith and public policy or faith in the sort of secular governmental world. Was there any sense of that tension in you or did you feel, you know, kind of free to be just who you were? Well, it's the same tension that exists between citizens and the government. But I insisted on sitting as an independent, which was finally granted me. And before I went in, I thought I would probably vote liberal all the time. Then I discovered that the conservatives have just as many good ideas, which surprised me and pointed out my naivety. surprised me and pointed out my naivety. And my closest colleague in the Senate was a conservative from Saskatchewan, and we worked on human rights.

I think she looked at people she knew on, shall I say, her side, of what she thought were her side, and lo and behold, she found some of the people who were on her side were on the opposite side of the Senate. My name is Raynell Andraychuk. I'm from Saskatchewan. I don't have a job title now. The one that we often use is former senator. I have had a very varied career, very fortunately. I went overseas as an ambassador, high commissioner. I was fortunate to be able to be associated with a lot of international NGOs, groups that worked overseas, and that had always caught my attention, and human rights. So I've always had that international thrust. And that's really where Lois and I really paralleled because she came at it obviously differently. But most of the time with Lois, she and I were like, did we talk about this before?

Because you're saying the same things I'm saying. I'm ready to put that resolution in right now. She was always looking for windows of opportunity to bring more peace and justice and help at the local level. And she reached out, not in a formal way, but she just wanted to hear people talk about their daily lives, which I think stood her in good stead, and I followed her example in many cases. Often I would sit with human rights activists who would talk about the law. They would talk about what resolution should be put forward. Lois reminded me, if I had forgotten about, how's this going to help? How's this going to be implemented? Is it going to reach the people? Or are we just going to go home saying,

oh, we did good, we passed a resolution? She wanted to know that it would take effect and change people's lives. And so I used her as my refresher course, if I could call it that, about the things that really matter. It's not getting it through the United Nations. It's getting it done on the ground. Former Conservative Senator Raynel Andrzejczyk. You're listening to a rebroadcast of For the Sake of the Common Good, an appreciation of Lois Wilson by Ideas producer Sean Foley.

Lois Wilson died last Friday at the age of 97. Ideas is a podcast and a broadcast heard on CBC Radio 1 in Canada, on US Public Radio, across North America on Sirius XM, on U.S. Public Radio, across North America, on Sirius XM, in Australia, on ABC Radio National, and around the world at cbc.ca slash ideas. I'm Nala Ayed. Hey there, I'm David Common. If you're like me, there are things you love about living in the GTA and things that drive you absolutely crazy.

Every day on This Is Toronto, we connect you to what matters most about life in the GTA, the news you gotta know, and the conversations your friends will be talking about. Whether you listen on a run through your neighbourhood, or while sitting in the parking lot that is the 401, check out This Is Toronto wherever you get your podcasts. It's a well-worn cliche, and maybe a well-deserved one,

that nothing really gets done in the halls of power. You know, Canada is a wonderful Boy Scout international. We'll sign anything. So we signed the UN covenants on economic, social, cultural rights, and so on. But when Lois Wilson was a senator, getting things done was the name of the game. So we signed the UN covenants on economic, social, cultural rights and so on. But when Lois Wilson was a senator, getting things done was the name of the game. Our work in the Senate was to see that implemented in domestic legislation in Canada, which is another story. So I really enjoyed those years because I had so much background internationally that I was able to speak to many things that the others were unable to.

And how were you received? What were the kind of conversations you were having? Do you remember people who you could definitely feel you were influencing? Well, I enjoyed them and of course they never knew whether I was going to vote conservative or liberal. But I enjoyed them, and I based them on usually their ethical content when I didn't know much more about the issue. And you were able to bring a lot of things to the table that really meant a lot to you, I imagine. Well, I hope so. I tried to.

Yeah. Yeah. That really meant a lot to you, I imagine. Well, I hope so. I tried to. Yeah. Yeah. If her point of view didn't succeed in coming through, she said, okay, I didn't succeed there.

She would then, you know, if I can't move the whole issue, can I move a bit of it? Or do I go on to another issue where I can serve? One of the amusing things is she's a very tiny woman, and she would often be confronted with very tall, robust men. But, you know, when she would look up at you, you kind of wanted to back off being arbitrary. And I noticed that in her work. Like, she would come out and say, well, I think this is what we should be doing, etc. Never in an arbitrary way. It was just like a fact. Here's what we could do, should do. And if someone came back, no, I can't possibly do that. She would just say, okay, so how are you going to, she would find another way of rephrasing what she thought needed to be done. And I think that may be coming from her faith and reading the Gospels, etc.

I don't know whether that's where it comes from, but I know that she carries her faith, but she carries it like an uncle of mine. He wanted to live it every day. He didn't want to be out there telling people how they should live. He wanted to be an example of what you can do with your faith. And I think that was Lois. She actually lived her faith as an example. Well, there's the whole narrative that spirituality is private, and that's utter nonsense, utter nonsense. I mean, can you imagine going into the Senate?

What are you supposed to do with your spirituality? Well, and so how did you do that? Well, I spoke out of my own experience. I mean, you can't deny your own experience. And they knew my background and who I was, so why not say so? So I did, and then that enabled a few others to do that as well. But we'd been so brainwashed by the fact that religion is a private thing. It is not a private thing at all.

I mean, as Bill Blakey says, it influences the way we form community and how we treat community. And the sooner we understand that, the better. The brotherhood and sisterhood of all human beings must not only be chosen, it must be chosen in the confidence that what we are choosing is not a temporal fiction, but something that corresponds to an actuality about ourselves that is greater than ourselves. Bill Blakey I would always try to plant the seeds elsewhere of what I thought needed to be done

so that other people could take ownership of it. And sometimes they might take too much ownership of it. But Lois and I would say, well, who cares as long as it gets done. She had an ego, but the ego was, I belong here. I've earned my right to be in the Senate or wherever it is, and I'm going to prove it to you. She's very conscious of other opinions, and that's why I think she was successful in the international. Because often we come with saying, here's how we're going to help you. We've got the answers. We've tried it out. And she would say, well,

you know, this civilization has been here longer than our country has been. What is it we can learn and change within ourselves? If you can just sit down and talk to 10 women in the village, you probably learn more about that country and how we can help them. And that's the reaching out that I think Lois was very famous for. I was invited by the World Council of Churches to be part of a four-person delegation. There had been a massacre of citizens in a provincial town in Korea by the Korean army, orchestrated by the then dictator. And we were sent to simply be in solidarity and see what we could do.

Well, I was the only woman on the team. And at the reception, two women came up to me and said, you have to go to Gwangju, the site of the massacre. And I said, well, I never heard of Gwangju, the site of the massacre. And I said, well, I'd never heard of Gwangju. What's that all about? Well, you see, no international person has ever been there. And so the story isn't getting out of what's happening. It was during the struggle for democracy in South Korea. South Korea has not always been a democracy. So I went to Gwangju, and that visit changed my life because I visited the parents of students who had been murdered. They took me to see the gravesite, and I counted the graves.

I was always followed by some spy. They're not very good spies in Korea. And that's when I realized that my focus had to be on human rights, on what happened to human rights in the community. And that visit was followed by a visit I paid on behalf of the United Church to Argentina, which was then under military rule. And they were, I mean, it was dictatorial and babies were being removed from their parents and adopted by the military and so on. And then that was followed by that same summer by visit

South Africa under apartheid. So those three countries, Korea, Argentina, and South Africa, changed the direction of my ministry and focused it more on human rights in the community. And up to that point, how would you characterize what you were principally focused on before that change happened? I was focused on the community in general, but not so specifically on people getting murdered. When the delegation went to South Korea, there were very strict rules. And Gwangju, where the massacres had taken place, was off limits. When the delegation got to Seoul, Lois Wilson had side meetings with women's groups, especially church women.

They laid out to her the very serious situation in Gwangju, mothers who had lost their children and husbands and so on, and the ongoing repression there, they said it would be so important for the women in Gwangju to meet with Lois Wilson, because the delegation was a pastoral delegation to the churches. And they felt that there must be some way that at least one member of the delegation could visit the people who needed the pastoral care the most. by these women, and she visited Guangzhou and was very, very impressed and shocked, actually, by what had gone on there and witnessing these and talking to the women. It has remained as part of her. How did you deal with that as a human being, going to these different places and witnessing? deal with that as a human being going to these different places and witnessing? Well, I began to understand that the people resisting these things were the Christian community. And I'd never seen a Christian community in that kind of work before. And I thought, I want to be part of that number. I want to be part of that community. fighting for democracy in south korea is a good thing is important but what do you do about this ongoing tension military tension the militarization of the whole society i mean back in those days

any window in seoul that was facing the north had to be like you can't see through, right? Because there's always a suspicion there would be some kind of communication that would go on. And it was kind of crazy. Any kind of democratization movement or human rights movement could always be suppressed because of this need to be vigilant with regard to the other side. Human rights and the issue of relations with the North somehow are combined and have to be tackled because they too much reinforce each other. have to be tackled because they too much reinforce each other. That's why we then planned this Tozanzo meeting where Lois took a major part. This happened in 1983. That's kind of launched the churches on both sides being involved in meeting face-to-face. At the time, nobody thought it would be possible. Even during the meeting, there was controversy about whether or not the South Korean churches should go along with this.

And in this process of dialogue and convincing each other, Lois played a major role. It was the women's issue that was very prominent for her. The delegation from South Korea, I think at that time, was all men. And she and other women who were there were pushing strongly for the role of women. It's the women who have been suffering from this division, trying to raise children in that situation, and not being anywhere in the hierarchy visible at all. They could be a force for peace. And listen also, if we possibly can, to what the Northerners have to say, and again, women in North Korea. The United Church, we were very welcome in North Korea because of the work of the early missionaries, which I had not fully appreciated.

It was a government delegation, and before I went, I was warned by Ottawa that they were going to search me and it was going to be terrible. When I arrived, I was greeted with flowers and chocolates. I mean, it was completely different because foreign affairs didn't know about the history of the church and the very good reputation that the early missionaries had established there. So we were allowed virtual access to anywhere we wanted to go, which is unheard of in North Korea at that time. And we worked hard at that. And eventually, because of our work there, we prepared the way and Canada declared diplomatic relations with North Korea in 2001.

Can you imagine? Then Lloyd Axworthy left his post in foreign affairs and the government hurried to reverse that decision and we've heard nothing ever since. Now, when the bomb came along, a nuclear threat, that's when Canada really cut ties. But we were at a very enviable position there, which I wish had been pursued.

And I keep thinking how different things would have been if that had been backed by the government at the time. The whole theme of that visit was how do we put content into a diplomatic relationship with North Korea? That relationship should not stay on a political level. She wanted to, from the beginning, to have some content, and the content should be people to people. In Christian circles, it's said North Korean communists have wiped out the church. All these Christians that they parade in front of you, they are just agents of the government and not really true Christians. So therefore, what's the point talking to them? Lois's response to that

is, we talk to anybody. We're not going to, from the outside, decide who is the best to talk to. If I have a government person talking to me, I talk to them. And I try to understand what is their perspective. What hope do they have for their children? Everybody's human. And if those people who say they are Christians, if they are government agents, they have dedicated their lives to this job of being a fake Christian. And the best way to be a fake something is to become it. So who's to say these people who are preaching sermons to us in house churches or in these buildings that have now gone up in Pyongyang, who's to say they're not real Christians?

in Pyongyang. Who's to say they're not real Christians? They read the Bible. They sing the hymns. Oh, wonderful singing going on. Are we to judge? These are not Christians. We should not talk to them.

All the guides that take you around, you ask a question, they've got an answer. And it's always the pat answer of the regime. So in order to get them to expose themselves as a person, sometimes you have to say off-the-wall stuff. Get them to laugh or to reflect in a different way. And that's what we found when Lois was on our delegation to North Korea. And it was very effective. We did get responses of genuine because they didn't know. There was no pat answer for the things that she was saying or that she was asking. So they had to give something of

themselves. I just wonder about why we as human beings seem to have so much trouble seeing others as being just like us. Yeah, I think it's called sin. All right. Yeah, we do have trouble, and that takes more than a lifetime, I think, to work through it. But it's interesting trying and getting the support of other people who would support you. Is that kind of a thing that helps keep you going? What?

Having people to work with. Oh, yeah. Oh, yes. Be part of a thing that helps keep you going? What? Having people to work with. Oh, yeah. Oh, yes. Be part of a community. I mean, if you think you're going to do anything by yourself, you're crazy. You know, there has to be a community and you have to be part of it. And you have to find the community that fits you and that you fit and will influence you and help you change. And help you change.

Yeah. So even if you are a person who wants to make a change in the world. Well, you're not perfect, you know. And so you're part of a community and you bring what you have and you listen to others and then there's some new ways of working arise out of that. So it's a dynamic process. Do you think that we're still good at that type of thing? Well, that's a blanket statement.

I mean, some are and some aren't, and it's happening some places, and some places it isn't. I mean, look at our relationship to Islam and to Muslims in Canada, for example. relationship to Islam and to Muslims in Canada, for example. I mean, for some, that's an opportunity to help forge a new kind of community. For others, it's to avoid them. Right, or to shun them or to even persecute them. Or to get rid of them. Yep. I mean, you can't make a blanket statement on that one. There are two essays in the book that are on interfaith, which I'm really proud of.

One is by Elia Hogman on the history of Muslims in Canada, which a lot of Canadians have no idea what it is. And the other is by Diana Eck, who headed up the whole interfaith work of Harvard University in the USA. whole interfaith work of Harvard University and the USA. And I think those two essays are really important for our self-understanding as we move out of our smaller community into a larger community that we don't know. Diana X was about the women's congresses, right? Yes. Her sense of discovery was so palpable in that essay. Can you describe a little bit about what that was like? Yeah, I was at that. It was in Toronto. It was organized by the World Council of Churches.

But I remember particularly when each faith group was asked to bring a symbol of their faith for their act of worship to open the day. And the Catholics didn't bring a cross. They brought a towel. And I thought, good for them. Hurrah! Somebody's finally got the idea that it's service that we're after. Right, the towel being...

Wipe each other's feet. Right, right, as Jesus did. That's a great thing that the Catholics did that. I'm actually kind of relieved to know that they brought that. Well, it was a great event, and I remember dancing with a Sikh girl at the Jewish meal on Friday night. I mean, we just crossed all sorts of boundaries, all of us. And that's the way it should be.

There was an Orthodox Christian woman who came as a delegate to one of the meetings of the World Council of Tortoise. And we were desperately trying to get a good ecumenical group of women, strong women, into these committees so that they could work with each other to bring in the changes that we were lobbying for outside. So we wanted this orthodox woman. She was really outspoken, brilliant woman. I mean, she was a professor, etc. And the churches came with their own idea. They wanted a very good Orthodox priest. He was a good guy. I must say I liked him, but he was not what our delegate, she was the one we wanted. So this became quite a struggle between the women and the church. suggestion was being rejected by the women. And who the hell are these women to interfere in the church's decisions?

So I came out, I told Lois, we are in trouble. This is what is brewing in the Indian delegation. She was, of course, on the leadership. So she was sitting in front. So she told whoever was chairing, I need to speak. And she got up and she said, the politics in this place stinks to high heavens. These were her exact words. And, you know, she's talking about orthodox patriarchs. Oh, God, it was so thing. Of course, you know, we lost in spite of that, in spite of her effort.

And so she had that kind of gumption. That's what was so beautiful about her. She knew she was right. And all of us knew she was right and we were right in our demand. Being with a woman like that all your life brings a sort of a spark in you, you know. Seeing her example added to my own strength to speak out. And I must say, we brought so many changes in the lives of women in the churches in our time. How have you managed to remain hopeful? I read Isaiah or Jeremiah. You know, Jeremiah, the whole country was carried off into captivity, And the crazy guy buys a plot of land.

You know, I mean, how silly is that? But it's a sign of hope and a sign that we're going to return and, you know, we're not giving up. I get a lot of hope from the Old Testament prophets. And I find that hardly anybody else seems to read them, but I read them constantly. And I read them more anybody else seems to read them, but I read them constantly. And I read them more than I read the New Testament. And I find them hopeful, particularly Isaiah. Fear not, for I am with you. I will bring your folk from the east, or gather you out of the west. I will say to the north, give back. And to the south, do not withhold. Bring my sons from

afar, and my daughters from the end of the earth, all who are linked to my name, whom I have created, formed, and made for my glory, setting free that people, blind though it has eyes, Isaiah chapter 43. That's wonderful poetry. It's really, and gives them visions of the future and visions of how things could be. I don't know if this is a grand statement, but a lot of Christians have never read the Old Testament and don't know the prophets. And it drives me crazy. And I don't know why that is, but anyway, they don't, and it's divorced.

And it seems to me that most of it is already said in the Old Testament. The difference is in the New Testament, it becomes flesh, but it's already said. Yeah, the table was already set. Yeah. The spirit of my sovereign God is upon me, because God has anointed me. I have been sent as a herald of joy to the humble, to bind up the wounded of heart, to proclaim release to the captives, liberation to the imprisoned, to proclaim a year of God's favor and a day of vindication

by our God, to comfort all who mourn, to provide for the mourners in Zion. To give them a turban instead of ashes. The festive ointment instead of mourning. A garment of splendor instead of a drooping spirit. They shall be called terebinths of victory,anted by God for Glory's Sake. Isaiah chapter 61. Is there anything you feel would be important to touch on? Well, just to say that I think the book is important because what it does is give an overview

of what one Christian did with her life publicly and the public implications of private faith. And I think that's important to understand. These life-changing things that happened to you, I mean, to what degree do you attribute that to God's grace? Well, I attribute a lot of it to the Spirit, the Holy Spirit. I mean, I hardly ever had an original idea myself, but I would always respond to what the community called me to do. And it was constantly calling me to do this, and then why don't you do that?

And I thought, hmm. constantly calling me to do this and then why don't you do that? And I thought, hmm. And looking back, that's what I think it was because it wasn't my idea. None of them were my ideas. But I was able to respond to them because I saw that they were in continuity with what I understood as the purposes of God in the world. Thank you so much, Lois. Thank you.

I'd like to, there's a scripture passage in the book of Micah, the prophet Micah in the Old Testament, that is put to music in the United Church hymnal. And I'm going to teach it to you. I tried this once before and it didn't work, but I'm indefatigable, I'll try again. And it's the little part in Micah chapter 6 verse 8 and this is the way it goes

what does the Lord require of you what does the Lord require of you to do justice and love mercy and walk humbly with your God he's going to help me out I hope what does the Lord require of you? What does the Lord require of you? To do justice

and love mercy and walk humbly with your God. Thank you all. Thank you all. On Ideas, you've been listening to For the Sake of the Common Good, an appreciation of Lois Wilson. Lois Wilson died last Friday. She was 97 years old. Produced by Sean Foley.

Featuring Lois Wilson, Lloyd Axworthy, Raynell Andrzejczyk, Eric Weingartner, and Aruna Nyanadasan. For the sake of the common good, Essays in Honor of Lois Wilson is published by McGill-Queens

University Press. Special thanks to Bertha Yetman and Joseph Shimoon. Readings by Bill Fox and Denise Colterman Fox. Technical production by Danielle Duval. Our web producer is Lisa Ayuso. Senior producer Nikola Lukšić. The executive producer of Ideas is Greg Kelly and I'm Nala Ayed. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.