Ideas - How did the Taj Mahal turn into a bouncy castle?

Episode Date: July 4, 2025

The answer is art by artist Divya Mehra, a 2022 recipient of the Sobey Art Award. She explains the meaning behind her inflatable art installation and joins the four finalists to discuss and celebrate where new art is taking us. *This episode originally aired on Feb. 9, 2023.Guests in this episode:Azza El SiddiqueStanley FévrierKrystle SilverfoxTyshan WrightDivya Mehra

The Shaw Festival in Niagara-on-the-Lake presents The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. Filled with breathtaking battles, mythical creatures and unforgettable characters. This new adaptation of C.S. Lewis's classic will mesmerize the whole family. Don't miss this epic adventure. The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. This season at the Shaw Festival. For tickets, go to shawfest.com. This is a CBC Podcast. Divya Miro.

Welcome to Ideas. I'm Nala Ayad. And you've just heard Divya Mehra being named the winner of the prestigious 2022 Sobi Art Award. The ceremony was held at the National Gallery of Canada. Here's the Winnipeg-born artist, just after accepting the annual prize, speaking, well, more like whispering,

to Ideas producer Mary Link. I feel bananas. This is surreal. I'm like sweating through my clothing right now. What even happened? I can't, I don't. I've had such an incredibly traumatic year. This is like a dream. I have no idea what to say. This is not real. You're standing here. What are you doing?

I need to go home. Tomorrow we're going to talk about this. Oh my god. We're going to sit down, we're going to talk about this surreal moment, but you know what? So well deserved. Thank you so much. And you will hear more from Divya in this program and the four other finalists. other finalists. Art is life. Art is not static. I make art because I can't do anything else. I make art because I don't want to do anything else. I make art because I need to make art to survive. Art is the, why do you say that, the heart of the society. What we can use to make some balance. Today, the new masters, the 2022 Sobi Art Award. The winner and finalists in conversation with Mary Link

at the National Gallery of Canada, where works from each artist were exhibited. My name is Aza El-Siddiq. I am an artist. I do sculpture and installation and I was born in Khartoum, Sudan and grew up in Canada. When did you come to Canada? I was four. Well, why did your family, I'm just sort of curious, why did they leave the Sudan?

So my father did his PhD at UBC and also while they were there it was the time that the dictator that was recently overthrown they were activists against his regime as well. And so have you gone back? I have not gone back. Never? No. What are your memories? You left when you were four. Do you have memories? Yes, I do. I have memories of playing outside and it being so hot that I was, I wasn't wearing shoes and I was just, the ground was scorching hot and just kind of like bouncing around. And I have memories of this man, he was on a camel and he'd come by with these like dried fruits and treats, kind of like the version of the ice cream man, you know, but on a camel in the desert with dried, I guess, healthier treats and just being really

excited to get something, you know. And yet you left when you were four and you've never gone back yet. Do you hope to go back? I do hope to go back. I do hope to go back. It does feel truly a little bit complicated, especially being very open about my sexuality and being queer and being married to a woman. That does make me think about potential dangers of being in spaces like that where homosexuality is against the law. That can be life and death then? Yes. Well hopefully someday that will...

Definitely. Change and evolve. Can you describe your piece that is showing at the National Gallery right now as part of the Sobi Art Award and it's very striking. It's called Measure of One. Tell me about that. So, Measure of One, a lot of my work I do a lot of research on ancient Egyptian and Nubian mortuary sites and temples and so specifically with Measure of One, I was looking at Terhaga, who was Nubian pharaoh that ruled both Egypt and Sudan, and he had built Sun Temple in this really large complex called Karnak. So when I was looking at his Sun Temple, something that really strikes me is the entryway into the temple where you have

to go through a stairwell to get there. And in that stairwell, one of the first things that you're presented with is the really famous funerary text called the Litany of Ra. And the Litany of Ra consists of 75 manifestations of the god Ra. And I thought that was really beautiful and poetic in this way, how one entity can be fractured into all these different forms. So with Measure of One, it consists of 75 vessels that come out in groups

and they go through a transformation that happens where there's a slow drip irrigation system where one drop penetrates each row. So thinking about how this one drop affects all these multiple layers and then how these objects, in ways I like to think of them as humans, because through my research I also look at mythology and a lot of the gods that were in African folklore and ancient Egyptian, the gods that were potters created humans. So, really? Yes, yeah, so thinking of that and like of the earth. And these clay vessels that you have placed on these, it's really sort of beautiful metal sculpture that's quite large and layered. They are not fired, they're not, they're not, you didn't put them in the kiln, right? Yeah. So they're gonna, they're temporary. And so why did you make them temporary? Because they'll break down. Why did you do that?

Yeah, I mean just with life, that art is not static. I feel like it wouldn't convey the same messages that I'm trying to express if these were very static fired objects.

And I think also something that really attracts me to like the sort of research and like mythology and the folklore is just thinking about how ancient Egyptians and Nubians believe that the gods emerged from the primordial waters of men. And then to think about Darwin's theory of evolution, how humans emerge from the waters. Some of your work includes scent, which is really important to you, and that you say that scent makes you time travel. Why is scent incorporated in some of your work? Scent, for me, I think I'd be incorporated in all of my works if it wasn't for certain

limitations. Some spaces have strict rules about having scent in a space. But for me, growing up with the Sudanese diaspora community, scent was a really big part of my culture. culture and when I think of Scent I think about these really powerful Sudanese women that immigrated from Sudan that were doctors, lawyers or whatever and then they're here in Canada and they're working at a grocery store you know and just thinking about these really powerful women and the sacrifices that they make in order to uphold their communities, their families, and the

lack of recognition that they get. So when I use scent, for me it's a really powerful tool. The scent actually, it's invisible, but it really takes up a space. We've become almost puritanical, haven't we, about scents? Yes, totally. What kind of scent, in terms of Sudanese, like what kind of scent evokes a powerful connection to you?

What specific scent? Sandalwood. Yeah, sandalwood is very evocative to Sudanese culture. I've been apprenticing with a Sudanese perfumer. Oh, cool. It's this knowledge that's passed down to others. And she had taught me how to make some of the Sudanese incense and just thinking about certain materials like sandalaya which

is a sandalwood oil how that is used in the incense and then it's also used on the body during a Muslim burial. So for me those are the two main scents that I work with and I think about those as oscillations between life and death, but then how death is also, it's that sort of ingredient that's part of life. So when you smell sandalwood? It gives me comfort and power because like I think about my loved ones that I have lost and to smell that sandalaya, it makes me feel closer to them. Oh wow it's beautiful, that's beautiful. The Sobiart Awards are about to be announced.

How are you feeling right now? I feel good like I feel um well I feel surprised that I'm here you know. I'm here, you know. Why? I think making ephemeral installation work, I didn't think it would resonate with so many people. Yeah, just I feel happy to be here and I also feel... I feel... I guess, seen in the way that the work is connecting with people. It's important to be seen. Okay, so my name is Crystal Silver Fox.

I grew up in Vancouver, BC, and I currently live in Whitehorse, Yukon territory. I am a member of Selkirk First Nation. I am a citizen of the Wolf Clan, I would say. And I'm not sure if citizen is the right word, but I belong to the Wolf Clan. And a lot of my artwork explores my identity as an urban indigenous woman, as well as it reflects back on northern Tichoni aesthetic traditions.

You like to think about objects as belonging, which I love. It's a very poetic thought. Tell me more about that. What does that mean? Well, I actually, I'd say I stole the idea from artist Dana Claxton. It's always good to steal our ideas. She wrote an essay called Northwest Coast on the Upload,

and it's talking about the internet. It's a very good essay, very short. I think it's like five pages long, but she does mention in it that the objects that we make as artists are actually, they refer back to us, but then they also have their own space. So I'm thinking about an object, like I belong because of this object,

but the object is also like belonging somewhere else to a bigger picture. Yeah, because art is to be shared in one sense, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, for sure. It's part of the collective. It's why we all go see it. It's why we're touched by it. Some of the artists creates and sometimes it has a completely different meaning for others. We were just down in front of your work and I found it very moving, your work, because there's a lot of beauty in it, but there's also the pain of the past, but it's also reclaiming.

Let's talk about some of your pieces. How does Hudson Bay Company figure in your art? Talk to me about all that glitters is not gold, that piece. Okay, so the Hudson's Bay Company blankets, back, I guess, 150 years ago. Anyway, like mid 19th century, when settlers were moving into the Yukon area, like the Hudson's Bay Company, we didn't have a Hudson's Bay Company in my territory originally. So we would do trade with the Chilkat Tlingit people on the coast,

and they had a Hudson's Bay company. So we used to trade Chilkat weavings, like they would give us weavings and we would give them different resources, such as copper, and they would make copper shields and whatnot. Anyway, they would give us Chilkat blankets, but when the Hudson's Bay company moved in, it was a lot more, I guess, it was easier to give beautifully made Hudson's Bay blankets rather than spending years to weave Chilkat weaving. And so we started receiving these blankets

and part of our potlatch ceremony back then, this is before the pot, or during the potlatch ban, I guess around the time when the potlatch ban is getting implemented, is the potlatch ban, I guess around the time when the potlatch ban is getting implemented is during potlatch, we would rip the blanket apart and gift it to people. And that would show kinship. Was a ripping when they shared in the ceremony, was it to destroy the blanket

and just give you a piece of a blanket? I mean, was it still usable after they would rip the blanket? Yeah, so you could do different things with the blanket. You could actually manipulate it and turn it into, let's say, a baby blanket or clothing, like a coat or a shawl or something like that. Yeah. So eventually, the Hudson's Bay moved into my territory at Fort Salkirk.

And so we had our own way to get these blankets. And the Tlingit people did not like that so they burnt down the Hudson's Bay Trading Post twice. Oh really in your territory? Yes so it is like right now Fort Selkirk is a historic site and it does have like a history a history about the Hudson's Bay Trading Company and as well as it being like a meeting place between my First Nation or the Northern Tachoni people as well as the Tachoni people. What emotion does the Hudson Bay blanket bring out in you now?

It's okay so I know it looks like I'm violently ripping apart these blankets. Well that's right, well describe the piece, describe All That Glitters Not Gold for people who can't see it. So All That Glitters, Is Not Gold is a four-point Hudson's Bay blanket. And the point actually, number of points refers to the size of the blanket. And the points are actually used because it's a felted blanket.

So when they weave the blanket together, it's much larger, and then they shrink it down. And the points are a way to measure the size. And so all that glares is not gold is a Hudson it's one of these blankets it is the Millennium stripe which is a bunch of grays and the blanket itself was ripped in half by my auntie. So I have like family helping me out with this project. So the blanket was ripped in half and then there is fringe attached to the blanket that drapes down to the floor. And so it looks like a ripped blanket. It really does because of the fringe on it. It does have that reference to potlatch ceremony and ripping

and destroying things. However, my own personal relationship with the Bay, growing up in Vancouver, I would always meet my family at the Bay because that's like central downtown. It's like, let's meet at the Bay, let's go shopping. So I feel like there's this, it it does refer back to my own northern Toccioni culture but it also reminds me of home, like my mom and my sister. How is life as an artist going for you? Oh it's going amazing! Oh that's so good! I'm so happy and I feel blessed that I get to do this for a living.

Like this is, I can't believe this is my life. I feel like I'm living the dream. Just being here, being part of the shortlist, I feel that that is like having my art in the National Gallery, that's my win. It is your win. Just before we go, describe your studio. Like where do you create art? Oh, no. So I actually I live in a basement suite and I create art in my, I'd say, dining room area. So I am never really separated from my artwork. It's just always there.

So what's on your dining room table right now? Oh, I have a couple of paintings. Of? One of them is a crow for my auntie who helped me with the blanket. And then another one is just an ovoid, which is a Northwest Coast form line design. Is it good to be surrounded by art? Yeah, but also I kind of wish I had a studio space so I wasn't, you know, like waking up in the middle of the night and thinking about art

and what I'm going to do but I'm pretty sure if I did have a studio space I'd probably still work from home regardless. But you know what I mean you probably will someday have a studio space but but your joy and your love of what you do is so infectious and I think that you have you find happiness wherever it seems when it comes to art, wherever you make your art then. Yeah, well, I think you can use everything to make art or you can find art anywhere. And to see the beauty in the world, that's all I really want.

Next up, Ty Sean Wright, representing Atlantic Canada. He lives in Halifax and was born in Jamaica. Tell me about where you grew up in Jamaica. You grew up in a maroon town, right? Yes, I grew up in a very small indigenous community called Akampung in Jamaica. Population is maybe a thousand people. If I could just back up a little bit. Sure. So during the transatlantic slave trade, the Maroon won their freedoms from the British

and established independent communities on the island of Jamaica. So a kampung is one of those communities and that's where I grew up. What's really interesting too is that, you know, so you grew up in a Maroon town but then you ended up coming to Canada and marrying Shante Grant, who I know well, who is a poet laureate at Halifax. She's a singer. She's everything. She's just an amazing, amazing person. But you two are married and you have two young children, but you came to Nova Scotia, which

is really significant too because the maroons, so the Maroons were created what, in about the culture in the 1700s, and then some came to, were brought to Nova Scotia centuries ago. How were they brought? Tell about that, and then you, centuries later, coming yourself. So after the peace treaty, you have what known

or what called the Second Maroon War. And the Second Maroon War, according treaty, you have what known or what called the second maroon war. And the second maroon war, according to the British record, according to the British, in Jamaica, according to the British, one maroon they said stole a pig. And the British have that maroon flag so hard that it literally put the rest of the community, it was very embarrassing for the rest of the Maroon to witness it. And so the Maroon decided to burn down their entire village. And so they literally burned their entire village to the ground and decided to take back to the hill or took to the hill once more again.

And so within the first few months of the war, the British lost several casualties, the Maroon lost none. And the British said to them, listen let's come to the table again, let's call a truce, let's renegotiate and give you Maroons another plot of land so you can live in peace and tranquility. But when they came down they were tricked and put in chains and exiled here to Nova Scotia. And then during that exile, they were denied all their spiritual instruments, so to speak. And that's where, as you put it, century life rolled, Shanti. You know, life brought my wife and I together, if I may say so. You know, I am, it's amazing sometimes

just when you think you have life, I'll figure out. And then life, yeah, they just said, you think you're in control, but you're not. You think you're in control, but you're not. And so- Did you move from Jamaica to- Yeah. To Nova Scotia?

Yes. Wow. I, Shantay and I, life brought us together. from Jamaica to Nova Scotia? Yes. Wow. Shantay and I, life brought us together in a very magical, mysterious way. There's a narrative arc that we don't even realize is being created sometimes. Yes.

The narrative arc of you coming as an artist here. Yeah. We're in Ottawa, but, but coming to Nova Scotia and that, and when maroons came to Nova Scotia way back when, centuries before, they weren't allowed to bring their instruments. They weren't allowed to bring their instrument. In terms of tangible things, they came with nothing tangible, but what you cannot take from an individual is what they know in terms of their thought process. So they weren't allowed to take anything let alone

instruments. Let alone instrument but during the Atlantic slave trade the maroon developed a set of instrument which were able to tap into another aspect of life or another dimension of life. And so with these instrument they could have drawn and a different, they could have access a dimension where they pull energy from and so they were able to win the war. So the Mahiru would win more of a spiritual war than a physical war. Right so this and this is really important because one of your pieces talks about this and it's called Maill. Maill. Yes.

So tell me about Maill because that's, and one of your pieces goes into that because this is what you're talking about. It brings you into a different dimension. Yes. And so the British knew what these instruments can do. And so that was the reason for denying them these instruments. But what is maial? Some things you have to experience.

But I'll say maial is really entering into a space where it could be with one ancestor or more, or with the larger existence of life. It depends on the limitation of one, of you as an individual, in terms of what is it that you're personally looking for, what is it that you want. And I think, you know, in terms of an individual, you know, it's only you who can put a boundary around you as an individual. No one else can necessarily do that. The mind itself, it doesn't matter where you place it,

it have the opportunity to roam as far as it wants to roam, so to speak. And so, yeah, that's really my art. So one of your pieces is of a drum, of a traditional maroon drum, right? Yes. That you made as art, it is also representation. Yes. When playing this, is that when you can go into this state or how does it work? So in terms of...

I'm simplifying too much probably. Again, sometimes a lot of things best known as experience. So there are certain beats to these drums. there are certain music that goes to these drums, there's a bit more that take place. For example, there are certain songs back home where we only sing those songs unless we definitely trying to access that dimension. And this is just my own life experience. This is my life experience. It's not the truth. It's not, it's no one else truth but mine,

because truth is a difficult thing to determine when life is really about perspectives. So for me, I've learned that pursuing life selfishly is dangerous. And so there are a lot of people who try to access the miles, so to speak, and have faltered on their own self because you're seeking something which necessarily is very selfish. And in the end, how will it help the individual around you, or the Earth, so to speak, in general?

I know you say you have to experience it, or maybe you can't articulate it then, but can you tell me an experience of your own, personal? The experience is... In terms of experience, it's about sitting outside. If a leaf moves, it can bring tears to your eyes. You know, the wind, it just brings tears to your eyes. It's just dry. It's just pure dry. Wherever you turn, it's just dry. It's really come to a place where you realize that you fully, from my perspective, you fully understand love. As I once

described it to someone that love is not something you can turn up and turn down because what it does, it literally shows you half balance because you're up here but no, you're down here. But when you discover love, it's like flipping a light switch within a dark room and once it goes on and you see what's in there, there is nothing to turn up and turn down.

You may meet someone who your spirit may not gel with but you can't hate that individual. You cannot despise that individual because you can't once the switch is on it's just on and so that's my experience of Maya is just expanding life and discover that everything around you is alive. Everything around you is really is alive, you know, but you just gotta open yourself up. You just gotta open yourself up and you realize that everything is alive. Everything is just alive and well. everything is alive. Everything is just alive and well.

You're listening to The New Masters, the 2022 Sobi Art Award on CBC Radio 1 in Canada, across North America, on SiriusXM, in Australia, on ABC Radio National, and around the world at cbc.ca. You can also hear ideas on the CBC Listen app or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Nala Ayd. The Shaw Festival presents Anything Goes, a dazzling production of Cole Porter's timeless musical set on the SS American. Follow the antics of a nightclub singer as she navigates love triangles and hilarious hijinks on the high seas. Anything Goes on this ocean liner.

Featuring spectacular tap dancing and hits like You're the Top. Don't miss Anything Goes at the Shaw. For tickets, go to shawfest.com. Book club on Monday. Gym on Tuesday. Date night on Wednesday. Out on the town on Thursday. Quiet night in on Friday. It's good to have a routine. And it's good for your eyes too. Because with regular comprehensive eye exams at Specsavers, you'll know just how healthy they are. Visit Specsavers.ca to book your next eye exam. Eye exams provided by independent optometrists. The Sobe Art Award began 20 years ago and quickly evolved into one of the most celebrated art prizes in Canada, recognized around the world.

The finalists are selected from five regions across Canada. The top prize is now $100,000. In the final part of the show, you'll hear from the winner, Divyamera. But first, another finalist, Stanley Favrier, representing Quebec. He was talking to Ideas producer, Mary Lenk, the day before the awards ceremony. How are you doing today? Oh, I'm feeling exciting. I can imagine it's a day, so I don't know.

I try to relax, but. I think everybody is kind of, you know, feeling the nerves right now. It's pretty impressive. What was it for you to see your work in the National Gallery or maybe it's been here before? I don't know. No, that's the first time. For me, it's a huge accomplishment.

I was working a lot for that. It's take times for the media or the art world to accept what I'm doing because it's a critical institutional critics. So the people like four or five years ago there was not ready for that. Yeah, because you're challenging. Like one of your most significant pieces is it was challenging the lack of representation of diverse voices in art and art museums. So I started to investigate the art world, but it was a very big surprise to see the lack of diverse people and all the collections of the museum.

And this museum was a contemporary museum? The Montreal Museum,, in Montreal. It's the same from here too. Beaux-Arts de Québec, Beaux-Arts du Canada, Faring Art of Montreal. Tell me about going into there, into say that museum or whatever museum, and what you saw and what you didn't see. What I saw, the first thing I sent them a letter to know how many diverse people you have in your collection.

So no one could answer me that the reason I start to analyze the collection name by name to see where that artist from, the color of his skin, her sex. So I discover like for example, the MAC in 15 years, they only buy only one black artist. They've only bought one black artist. And this is a very important contemporary museum in Montreal. And Montreal. And Montreal, I mean, you're Haitian background, you're born in Haiti.

There's a huge Haitian community in Quebec, because of the connection of the French and artists and thinkers and some of the crème de la crème. So they're in Montreal and yet there was no artists who are Haitian. That's interesting. That's what I wasn't shocked. I said, okay, so my skin had the impact on my career. I couldn't ignore that. So now I start to find all the artists in her studio to know where they are, to create a collection and museum that works to show them.

So we here, we exist, we have art world very important and they have a huge contribution. We all contribute on the art world in Quebec and Canada, so I start to buy them to create a collection. I became with a curator outside of the museum. How did you buy all this? Where did you get the money to buy all this art? Oh, that's the good question. I say thanks you to Canada Art Council and Quebec Art Council

and the CAAL, but I put my home money because in 2020 I won the prize from Quebec Musée National des Beaux-Arts. I used that money to buy art. So for me, it was very important to show the museum if they really have interest for us, they will do the same thing they did for the white men. Right. You know? And tell me about that piece, that performance piece, where people are dressed in black cloth all over their face, so they're just all covered in black, so you don't see their faces or

anything. And they have this paper around their feet, and it was in front of the contemporary museum in Montreal. Tell me about that. And that day. All that paper, it was the annual report. Annual reports of the museum. Of the museum.

St. Catherine Street, we have a manifest, we read the manifest, and I start to destroy all that. You start to shred all the annual reports, your collection of years of annual reports. And was that the feet of the people? Yeah, it's in the museum. I've found a director, John Zepeteli, to show them now it's time to make a new issue. And how did they respond to that?

Oh my God, it was a collapse. No answer, no. Did they know you were gonna do it? No, they didn't know. Oh, so it was sort of a flash. A flash, yeah. Flash mob art slash protest statement. Statement, yeah.

So I was waiting for them to open the dialogue because what I tried to do for all that years is to put all that museum on the table to have a dialogue. For me, no one asked us, no one invited us to have a dialogue, you know? For me, no one asked us, no one invited us to have a print of you. You know, they just... Did you try before you did the art piece to have contact with them about this? And they didn't respond?

I sent letters. You sent letters? I sent letters by email, by post, by, yeah. To talk about the lack of diversity. And so they, and you had no response? No. No response? No response. Yeah. For how long were you doing that?

You know, I met, that's crazy, you know. Did it change? Has it changed with all this that you've done so far? Are you seeing, are the museums, I mean? Yeah, now they start to buy couple artists. And my idea, it's not only about black artists, you know, it's everyone they call orders. Yes, others. I said, if we really need to change things, we need to be sitting at the table, we change

things together. I think now the museum has a big responsibility to show the real face. Tell me about the piece, The End of the World, describe it for people. Oh my God, it's, what I did is the cemetery. Yeah, it's a cemetery. So it's, yeah, you walk in and it's like, you see, it almost looks like tombstones, right? Big white tombstones.

And there's, I don't know how many there are, there's quite a few. 15. 15. But they're not tombstones. No. They're shredders. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Why do you say that? They're shredders.

Shredders, yeah. And that's what you did at that protest and that art piece when they weren't responding to your emails as you shred it. So these are sculptural shredders. What is the piece over it? There's a circular, like, wreath. Oh, it's a flowers. My idea is to create a cemetery to remind us all that practice before should be, what do you say, buried?

Yes, buried. Buried? Past, yeah. The past should be buried to have a new world, a new way we have to do things. Yeah, I believe things are going to change. For the good? a new way we have to do things. Yeah, I believe things are going to change. For the good. Yeah, for the good, for the good, yeah. Because we know that, you know, and if like,

only five years ago, I couldn't show that piece. The cemetery, no. Yeah. This has, has any museum, is this the first time it's been in, has it been in another museum before? Yeah, yeah, I built it for, no, no, I built it for this show. Wow. Because before, no one would like it.

Accept it, because it's a big statement about a museum. Yeah. It's a powerful piece. Thank you. Thank you. My name is Divya Meera and I'm a finalist for the Sobe Art Award and I'm from Winnipeg. Okay so let's go back to last night. Yeah. Please join me again on stage for the 2022 Sobiart Award winner announcement.

Divya Meera. What went through your head when you heard your name being announced? I didn't believe that it was real in that moment. And it's transformative, isn't it? I mean, it's going to change your life. Because being an artist is not an easy choice in life. Being an artist means to be judged constantly. Everything's subjective in how they feel about it.

And people can be cruel and be difficult because, you know, everybody has their idea of what art is supposed to be. It has been incredibly challenging. I grew up in Winnipeg and I went to art school there and it was very, very difficult and like a very complicated experience doing my undergraduate degree there. Why was it difficult?

Because I would have instructors that would tell me that my work was not Indian enough. Really? Yeah. A non-Indian telling you that my work was not Indian enough. Really? Yeah. A non-Indian telling you that your work wasn't Indian enough? Yeah. I failed my thesis year in my undergraduate years because my work was not Indian enough.

When I think about it now and I talk about it, I'm just like, this was so nonsense. To say something like that, it's like I didn't realize that this was so, like this was so nonsense. Like to say something like that, it's like, I didn't realize that this was something that could actually be judged. You know, that it was something that it was like, it's like we're grading you on this. And it- Did they use that phrase though?

That it was not Indian enough. I had gone to India for part of my thesis here and come back and the work that I was making, I didn't really have language for at the time. It was like work that was sort of exploring what it meant to be a Diasporic person. So not having a home specifically, like India not being a place that I could call home,

and Canada not being a place that I could call home. So sort of existing in this in-between space. So all the work that I produced was somewhere in the middle, or trying to speak to that middle space. And it didn't really take on the shapes or the forms that they wanted it to. And so some of the feedback I got at that moment was that because I'd just come back from India,

they were like, work from India, Divya, should be very colorful and very scented and very bright. And like this, it's like, this is not Indian enough. You know, and the work that I had produced was like one of the pieces, oh my gosh, yeah, no, I definitely won't talk about my undergraduate. No, tell me what one of the pieces was. One of my undergraduate works was just these jars that I had made that were like empty. Jars that I spray painted the caps red and made little red silk bags for.

And I sold karma on, you know, as like an undergraduate project. Oh, I love that. Just like empty, these empty jars on the street and people like a lot of people love them. But how much does karma cost? I'm curious in the day only five dollars but that was like the joke behind that that work for me at that time you know like in that very early stage that it was it was this idea that this person of Indian origin could sell you something like this and so it didn't matter what you did in the day but the joke was that you would just open this jar and like sprinkle on that good karma and you'd be okay.

You know, it's like a joke, a joke amongst my friends, but my committee definitely did not, did not appreciate it. Yeah, I get it. Yeah, I get it. I think it's quite quite smart. Thank you. Okay, so let's talk about the big bouncy castle, Afterlife of Colonialism, a reimagining of power. And I love this for so many reasons, which I'll tell you in a bit, but first for people listening, can you describe it? It is a very large 15 by 15 by 15 foot, green bouncy castle that is made to look like the Taj Mahal and there's no jumping allowed. And it's hand painted? It's all, it is all hand painted.

Made in India? Yeah, it's made in India, it's hand painted, yeah. And you've said things we make, art we make, it's always secondary, that the key is reaction to the art. And so what were you trying to say? On your end of the conversation, of Art Creates Conversation, what were you trying to say with the Taj? With that work, I was really thinking

about how diasporic people are understood, like South Asian diasporic people. Even that term is like a very funny term because it encompasses so many different people. It's like, how are we seen in relation to the West and to that gaze? One of the quickest symbols or signifiers that came up was the Taj Mahal.

And this is something, this is like an image that you see, you know, whether it's on things like rice bags or jewelry boxes or, you know, puzzle sets. It's like, it's like an image that is sort of everywhere. It's very popular and it becomes like this stand-in for, again, like South Asian diasporic people. So it was, it seemed like it was easy to work with in that way, but it isn't specifically about the Taj Mahal so much as it is about the gays.

And for me, in my end of the conversation, I was very struck by it, not tell you how it affected me because when I, like 40 years ago I lived in India for a year, right after university, and I went at one point to Agra and, you know, chaotic beauty surrounding Agra, the life of India, the smell, the poverty, the joy, all those sort of extremes on either ends, that is India, that is so rich and interesting. And then there's the Taj, which seems completely to the tourists, it's completely apart from it. It's like the tourists quickly go through the real India to get to the Taj. And then the Taj itself is more to take a photograph to say you've been there as opposed

to the reverence of the place. And so for me, it was like your piece was like the Disney world, you know, and it's taking for granted something that is quite significant, but also ignoring what is surrounding it. What the real India, so to speak, the India that exists. What about you? When was the first time you went to Agra? And did you feel that way too, about the disconnect with the two of us there? Yeah, absolutely. The first time I had the chance to see that space was with my father. I think I must have been like 18 or 19. And exactly what you're saying, it's like, it's how I felt again, you know, whether or not I had the words for it at the time. But you know, going to this like mausoleum, going to this like place of eternal love,

this monument. That's right, because it's built for the dead wife, the late wife. Yeah, yeah. And it is instead of like thinking about that, you just had all of these tours in this space. Instead of thinking about how special this space was, people were just kind of taking these like very funny perspective photos all over. They do certain angles. So they look bigger than the Taj or whatever. It's a real.

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And it was kind of like a strange thing to witness in real time. I think you just mentioned the words Disneyland and it really felt that way. These places just become these... These places that deserve so much more respect and reverence instead just sort of become or are reduced to... Yeah, like a tourist... It's a checkbox.

Yeah absolutely. Yeah. Yeah it's like heartbreaking for that. It is heartbreaking. Yeah because there's no time spent thinking about what what it is that you're looking at. There is nothing you can possess which I cannot take away which is another piece of yours from 2020. I didn't do the whole title but tell me about this piece. Oh, so that work is like a project, part of a project I did for the Mackenzie Art Gallery in 2019. In Regina. In Regina. I was invited by John Hampton, who was the curator at the time, doing my research into sort of the Mackenzie's history. I learned about Norman McKenzie, the founder of the space, and some of his travels, which included travels to India.

And- Who was he? He was a- He was a lawyer, and his good friend, Edgar James Banks, pardon me. The two of them had this history and this relationship that made up, from what I've learned, Indiana Jones. That that character was sort of based on-

Really? Yeah, that was based on them, or based on his buddy Banks, more than Mackenzie. But learning about that and learning that they were sort of just traveling all over the place, like making up their artwork collection was like a really fascinating thing. And I read about in one of Norman's biographies, read about the fact that he had, you know, acquired was the language as opposed to looted, but acquired a carving from India of Vishnu. And I asked the team at the McKenzie if I could have a look at this, of this acquired statue. And they were, the McKenzie team was super generous and they also allowed me to spend some time with Norman McKenzie's book of notes, like his diary essentially, that documented everything that he was again acquiring or stealing.

And Norman spoke about going to the banks of the Ganga in 1913 or the Ganges and seeing a carving that he really loved and he wanted it for himself and he ended up convincing somebody to steal that on his behalf. How big is it? It's very small. I'm like trying to remember the exact dimensions, but I think it's like 11 inches. It's very small. He brought it over in 1913. They're very significant.

Yeah. These statues, these carvings do represent these gods and so when they're removed from their place of worship it's like devastating for a community. Did he admit that he had it stolen? Yeah, absolutely. That's like documented in his notes. He was just like, I wanted this. I mean his language was like not just I wanted this but it was pretty close and what ended up happening was... And when was this? 1913.

So he brought it over. It was like identified as being Vishnu. And when I had a look at it in the vault, it was definitely not a male statue or a male carving. It was a female carving, but I decided to start reaching out to a few different friends of mine in Canada and the States and in

India to see if anyone was able to identify who the deity was. A friend and respected colleague, Siddhartha Shah, was able to identify the carving as the goddess Anapurna, and she's the goddess of nourishment. And that, as soon as we learned that, I went back to John and asked what the possibility of a repatriation would be, and if that was something that the McKenzie was interested in engaging with. And John was incredible and supportive and to work with the team and to work specifically with him in this way that like to go to an institution and be like, you need to deaccession this and have the institution respond by saying like, yep.

How important was it then a statue in that sense? How important was the restitution? Or the statue to India to get it back? Oh, there was like a four day ceremony in honor of that restitution happening. The prime minister of India, like it made, it made international news that this carving was coming back and it became- And did Modi take a credit?

You bet, absolutely. He's a controversial fellow, is he not? Yeah, absolutely. It was also something about the way that, as that news was sort of unfolding, you know, here was a conversation I started with John and then it like became a conversation between nation states and then it was like very much

like a conversation with Modi and the government and it had the sort of like place where we began this conversation. It had traveled very far from. What ended up happening with that deaccessioning was what could fill the gap if this work was actually deaccessioned. And I don't know why I spend so much time in this instance thinking about Indiana Jones,

but it's probably because of Banks's relationship to Mackenzie. And I suggested a bag of sand. Why a bag of sand? Because in Raiders of the Lost Ark, Indiana Jones does that switch right before he's chased through that temple. So he steals this golden idol and as he's removing it, he places this pouch that's just filled with what he thinks is the equivalent amount of weight that he's removing. And he tries to do it as quickly as possible. He's like, now he's going to notice.

And he switches them out. And then he's like, okay, I did my job. And I think he probably wipes as possible. He's like, now he's gonna notice and he like switches them out and then he's like, okay, I did my job and I think he like probably like wipes his brow. He's like, oh, and then like two seconds later, a boulder and arrows and all this starts chasing him out. So he did a bad job, but that sandbag, that pouch is something that, you know, it's like very iconic in relationship, in relationship to this character. I love this. Yeah. What a brilliant idea to do that.

Thank you. Thank you. I saw it because it's here. It's here right now. I love this. Yeah. What a brilliant idea to do that. Thank you. I saw it because it's here. It's here right now. Yeah. And so I produced this work. I bought the bag of sand undyed from like a Hollywood prop store and then just spent a few months like dying and aging it, which was a lot of fun, and filled it with the equivalent amount of sand that the Annapurna carving that was repatriated weighed. So filled it with that much and the Mackenzie ended up acquiring the work to fill the gap in their collection. And I have since said that the work is additioned so that if there's other institutions that want to engage in these conversations of actual material change,

it's like, what does that look like? You know, you can all buy a bag of sand. Anybody take up your offer yet? Not yet. Not yet. I'm waiting. I remember back in 2017 when I first met you, when Ideas was in, we were in Toronto, and you were shortlisted. And, oh, you had this fabulous Toronto and you were shortlisted. And oh you had this fabulous car, you had a jaguar that you had painted gold and the jaguar was seen as a I guess a sign of luxury in India, something to possess. And then eventually Tata, I think the automaker went and bought it and but so there was that

interesting returnism. But and then you had it crushed for again, symbolic about colonialism. It was a really interesting piece. But when back in 2017, when we were talking to you last time, you were asked in the interview, because it's the whole thing is about otherism, right? You're the other, people are others. They're separated from what's deemed valuable, I guess, in terms of being human. But are we going to reach a point, you were asked, are we going to reach a point where we see one another in one another? And that was a painful question for you. That was five years ago. That was five years ago. Yeah, I mean, it's a really good question.

And it's still painful. Yeah, I don't think much has changed in five years in relationship. It's like, are we going to... No. I would... I, you know, I don't remember exactly how I responded, but I do. And I don't feel like much has changed. I feel like things have just become like more complicated, more divisive, more oppressive, angrier, it's like more violent. But, and I know where you're coming from here and I'm sorry that it remains such a painful question. And I think it's good for people who don't face backlash for being the other, for being different, for being different coloured skin, for being

whatever. Can't understand really how deep that pain is. But your art is trying to address that. And in that there's hope, right? Yes, thank you. You know, you make this work in hopes that someone that's coming from an entirely different lived experience can connect to it. They see the heartbreak, they see the pain that you're experiencing, and they see something beautiful in that. I wish that people would see the light in one another.

Like that is like, that's like a dream, a dream. Well, your work made me do that. So I wanna thank you very, very much. And I really look forward to what the future brings for your art. Thank you. future brings for your art. Thank you. You are listening to the new Masters, the 2022 Sobi Art Award. To learn more about the artists and the award, go to cbc.ca slash ideas. Special thanks to Jonathan Shaughnessy, Lillian Lay and Angela Cassie of the National Gallery of Canada,

as well as Bernard Doucet and Rob Soby of the Soby Art Foundation. Technical Production for Ideas, Pat Martin and Danielle Duval. Our web producer is Lisa Ayuso. This program was produced by Mary Link. Senior Producer, Nicola Lukcic. Greg Kelly is the executive producer of Ideas, and I'm Nala Ayed. For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.