Ideas - Inuit Approaches to Conversation and Conflict Resolution

Episode Date: January 27, 2025

How do conversations happen differently in the north? What’s unique about Inuit approaches to silence — and to nation-to-nation conversations? IDEAS explores dialogue from Ian Williams' first Massey Lecture in Iqaluit with lawyer and activist Aaju Peter and actor and producer Simeonie Kisa-Knicklebein. 

When a body is discovered 10 miles out to sea, it sparks a mind-blowing police investigation. There's a man living in this address in the name of a deceased. He's one of the most wanted men in the world. This isn't really happening. Officers are finding large sums of money. It's a tale of murder, skullduggery and international intrigue. So who really is he? I'm Sam Mullins and this is Sea of Lies from CBC's Uncovered, available now.

This is a CBC Podcast. Welcome to Ideas. I'm Nala Ayed. And welcome to Inuksuk High School in Iqaliwit, where novelist and poet Ian Williams delivered part of his 2024 Massey Lectures, the first Massey lecture ever to be recorded in Nunavut. Ian set out to start a conversation about conversations. Without a partner, you're doing something like thinking aloud or monologuing. If instead of a partner, you have an audience, then you are making a speech, teaching, performing, but you're likely not having a conversation.

We wanted to make our evening in Iqaluit a real conversation. One where listeners and speakers switch roles, where multiple voices come to the fore, and where laughter and silence are just as important as talking. So after Ian's lecture, Ayu Peter and Simuni Kisa-Nikolbine joined us on stage to continue the discussion and to talk about what the rest of Canada can learn from Inuit and Northern approaches to conversation. Sometimes when non-Inuit are talking to me, I have to go to them like this to not talk

so much because it's a sort of an invasion of my brain and my space. We can read people and our conversation is also very much nonverbal. It's how you hold yourself and how you are. Ayu Peter is an Inuk activist, lawyer, educator, and sealskin clothing designer renowned for her work to defend Inuit culture, language, and the seal hunt. Her documentary, Twice Colonized, is a portrait of her life in Greenland and Canada and her lifelong fight for Inuit rights. There is younger Inuit or the younger generation of Inuit that are trying to start up those conversations again. I was fortunate enough to go to the school called Nunavut.

It's in Ixavut, which has helped me a lot with learning more about my culture and my language. Simuni Kisa Nicolbine is the owner of two companies based in Iqaluit, Nunavut. Northern Border Studios, a film production company, and Midnight Sun Leather, a shoe making company specializing in modern Inuit craftsmanship. He's contributed to well-known film and TV projects such as North of North, Slashback, and Anana's Tent. We spoke about the role silence plays in Inuit life, different approaches to anger and disagreement,

and how to communicate across cultures and geographies. Throughout this episode, you'll also hear some musical conversations, performed live at the end of the evening. So as many of you know, throat singing is a friendly competition, and that was a true, true competition, eh? I lost. Just in time, my abs. Kathleen Ivaliwaktuk-Merritt, or Eva, is an Inuk throat singer, poet, writer, and collaborating

artist originally from Rankin Inlet, now residing in Iqaluit. Her debut album, Ice, Lines, and Sealskin celebrates her Inuit and Irish heritage, featuring Inuit throat singing and poetry fused with Celtic influence and folk. Selena Kalik is an Inuk throat singer, poet, writer, artist, and Inuktitut language instructor at Peruvik. She's originally from Resolute Bay and now lives in Iqaliwit with her children. From Anuksuk High School in Iqaliwit, here's Selena Kalak and Kathleen Merritt. I'm going to be there to do I'm going to be there to do I'm going to be there to do

I'm going to be there to do I'm going to be there to do I'm going to be there to do I'm going to be there to do Iyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeye yeye yeye yeye yeye yeye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye I can't remember me. Nekita lingua me. Ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay I See being It's a Do I'm Hit the link Now to my conversation with Ayu Peter, Sim Kisa-Nikleda. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Now to my conversation with Ayu Peter, Sim, Kisa Nicolbine and Ian Williams. Our topic, how conversation takes place in the North and what the rest of Canada can learn from the North about how to have good conversations. Ayu, it feels like a long time ago, but I do want to reiterate just how wonderful it is to have you on the stage here and to be with you on the stage. I want to start with you. Could you please maybe speak to the idea of what you think is unique about Inuit approaches

to conversation? Anyone? We thought we started with an easy question. We don't talk as much as non-Inuit. Sometimes when some non-Inuit are talking to me, I have to go to them like this to not talk so much. Because it's sort of an invasion of my brain and my space. We can read people and our conversation

is also very much nonverbal. It's how you hold yourself and how you are. We do have conversations, but I think with the younger generation, it's becoming much harder because they're in their phones or in their conversing with other people just looking at their screen from the outside. So that is also has become a barrier, I find.

Picking up on your first point, and I think you bring up an excellent point about technology. I think everybody here can relate to, you know, sitting at a table and not being able to talk to some of the younger people and sometimes the older people in our lives because of screens and technology. But the first point you raised,

I wonder if you could in general terms speak about how that difference in conversation affects conversation between an Inuit person and someone who isn't. It's difficult for me to keep up with technology. It's difficult for me to have a normal conversation. What do we talk about? How was school or how was your day? We are so busy that we don't have the time that conversation needs to take. You need to relax and then start and then talk. When people ask you, how are you?

They're not really asking you how you are. What are they asking? It's like that song, I love you, right? When somebody says, how are you? They're really saying, I love you. But if we could sit down and really talk about the traumas, about lacking housing, about employment, where's the future, what are we doing?

Those are conversations that we should be having and not just be glued to Netflix or whatever. Yeah. Where are those conversations happening anywhere? I speak four languages. I'm very, very fortunate. I can listen to the Greenlandic radio and understand what they're saying. I can listen to CBC in English and also in Institute. And I think without having a person talking, conversing with a person, I do get a lot of conversation happening,

but it's happening to me, but I can't answer them back. There's no way to respond. Yeah. Sim, if I might ask you a question, you've also, you know, you do conversation, you do podcasts and a number of other media. I wonder, I'm curious how conversations have changed

between Inuit youth in particular, especially, well, particularly with the advent of, you know, podcasts, film, that actually privilege the Inuit youth experience. How does that change the conversation? That is a big question for me. I think that for the invention of podcasting has been great. For the younger generation that I usually spend time with, we don't usually listen to

the radio. It's usually music or podcasts. So I had previously had a podcast called Smoke Break, which was the intention of having more conversations with Inuit or those living within Nunavut. And it wasn't about any topic specifically. It was more of a general conversation where when you're out for a smoke, you get in a circle or you got to huddle around some people and you just start having a conversation with whoever is there. But I think with the invention of the other types of media, there is younger Inuit or

the younger generation of Inuit that are trying to start up those conversations again. I was fortunate enough to go to the school called Nürowuzibuniksevut, which has helped me a lot with learning more about my culture and my language. So that's something I'm very grateful for. And then I'm also trying to use less technology. So trying to be open to more conversation. Wow, so you fast from technology a bit. I try my best.

Before we go to Ian, I do want to ask both of you very quickly, because you both in some, in many ways, you've just mentioned that Sim are aware and involved in, you know, the reclamation of language. And I wonder if you could speak about how that might or is changing the conversation. I mean, the fact that there are more Inuit people who are taking up the language and taking and learning it in a more formal way. Are you?

You're involved both in teaching and learning. Yeah. When I went back to Greenland when I was 18, I couldn't speak the language anymore. So that was a big barrier for me, because then the whole country had shifted from wanting to speak only in Danish to only wanting to speak in Greenlandic,

and those who didn't were not looked so good upon. So that was a big barrier for me. So now that I can speak the Inuit language, I can speak with anybody and that has opened a huge door for me. Sim, your thoughts on that? Just what, the fact that there are formal schools around now that teach it at a higher level. I'm just wondering

what you think that does to the ability to have these conversations? I think it benefits people very much whether the conversations they want to have be formal or not. Just the ability to have conversations within the mind that they were raised in or the home that they were raised in, living within Nunavut, you're kind of, or within Nunangut, you're kind of raised in this way to think a different way. And if you can't convey the way you're thinking, because you can't speak the language that your mind is trying to translate it out to, it makes it difficult. But I think with these new, not new, with Peruvik, with the new program called Inutiavik, there have been great efforts. And I'm looking forward to seeing what Inutiavik is like within 10 to 15 years. So Ian, this is your first time here. Am I correct? Yeah. I just wonder, and I know it only has been a few days, so I don't want to put you on the spot too much, but listening to Ayu and Sim talk about conversation and the way it might be carried out differently or the same as what you know, just any thoughts come to mind that perhaps change your concept of conversation, what it is meant to accomplish or not.

Yeah, the very first thing you said, Ayu, about Westerners or non-Iniyo people talking a lot, right? Sometimes we feel this kind of like invasion, you said, right? About sort of I'm talking a lot. And I think people who talk a lot, they have this sense that they might sort of disappear or vanish if they stop talking. And on the flip side of that, we know about the importance of listening, at least theoretically, but it's just not as glamorous as talking. And we all want to be the star. It's more than just conversation. It's a mindset.

We want to be the focus of that conversation. But what you're saying that's really, I think, new and special is that in that space of silence, the conversation could do other things too, right? It can turn inwards. And you can see you've got a kind of like wisdom to you. And that's a person who's acquainted with silence. And I don't think you get that kind of wisdom

unless you're comfortable, kind of like reflecting and considering your own, kind of like reflecting and considering your own sort of disappearance from the outside so that you can be visible to yourself on the inside. And I think a kind of like wisdom and maturity and grace sort of results from silence. Yeah, we're quite uncomfortable with it though. You say in your lectures that you're right, that silence is the part of the conversation we often overlook. And I really want to tease out how silence might be different in the way you're talking about it. And you're talking about it. Is it different? I mean, what silence does in a conversation?

Is it different in the sense that you were describing, Ayu? What silence does in a conversation? Is it different in the sense that you were describing, Ayu? When I first moved here, I was very new. I came as a Dane with the Danish attitude. And I had to talk all the time. When it was quiet, it was so scary for me. It was like, OK, what am I going to talk about now? What am I going to talk about now? Silence was scary, but now I really enjoy the inner way of not having

to talk all the time. Sim thoughts on silence. Yeah. Within my childhood and within growing up to being who I am now, I've never really been a big talk. I love listening, although it sounds kind of vain, but I also, but I just enjoy being able to listen to people and sometimes people just need someone to listen. And then I think you don't really have to respond all the time, you know, you don't have to say whatever is on your mind.

And I just try to live that way. Just don't do it on this panel if you can. Noted. It feels silent on us. Thank you. No, that's very thoughtful. And Ian, do you see a difference? I mean, is there a difference in the sense of silence we're talking about? Yeah, I mean, there are different kinds of silence too, right? There's like a hostile silence, like I refuse to participate in this panel.

And then there's a silence like I'm reflecting and I'm thinking about what you're saying and all these like textures to it. But I actually, I think I wanna try this a little bit more. I actually think this is a kind of good life experiment. I'm always doing these kinds of things in my life. Like what if I didn't try to be agreeable or I didn't try to like respond all the time? What if I just kind of let silence hold up a mirror

to the person that I'm talking to and let them fill whatever they want onto that silence. And what if in this period, in this era of polarization and an era of rage where social media is a vehicle for anger and for screaming matches, silence to me just listening to you might have a role in changing the kinds of conversations public conversations we have do you see that are you at all I think there are two different approaches when the anti ceiling campaign was going on it was just right in your face very nasty and very loud. And we refused to engage in that. And therefore, the non-enrhyth thought

that we were just complying. But this was against our tradition. And the elders didn't want us to fight with other people about animals, because the animals will not be extinguished, but they will go someplace else. So we had to be quiet, and that was taken as compliance that we agreed with it, which was not at all the case. Here's another musical performance from Selena Calak and Kathleen Merritt, recorded live I'm going to be a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a

little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a

little bit of a little bit of a I'm I'm going to be singing. Could we maybe move, shift the conversation a bit to what happens in national, international conversations? Because you both, all of you at some level have been in this sphere. And I wonder back to you, Ayu, what happens at a national, international scale when you're trying to talk about Inuit rights with people who may not want to listen? It takes a long time. Yeah. Because we come from two different cultures

and I think the Western society has become accustomed to very loud and red in your face. And when somebody comes and talks quietly, they can't hear it. So it's hard to just stand up at a podium and talk and try to figure out, OK, how is the audience going to understand this? How is the audience going to listen to this? Because the cultures where we come from are so different

and the reality of life are so different. And Sim, again, back to you with an easy question. You know, in your conversations, which, as you say, were really to foster, just it didn't have to be a heavy topic or difficult or it could be, but it was just to have an informal conversation between friends, effectively. Are there any lessons from the many conversations that you had there that you think could be scaled up that the rest of us can benefit from, maybe in nation-to-nation conversation or international conversation?

It's a huge question, I know. But I mean, there must be, what did you learn from those dozens and dozens of conversations? Think before you speak. Fantastic. You don't have to respond to everything. Sometimes just laugh it off. Walk away if it's too much. Fantastic.

Yeah. I mean, most of us can take that advice on a daily basis probably. Ian, listening to all this, how should the stuff we learn about conversation in our day to day help shape our national or nation to nation conversations? Yeah, so on one hand, we're looking to our leaders,

our political leaders for a model of how to talk to each other about sensitive and difficult issues. And sometimes both sides are yelling at each other and sometimes one side is trying to be reasonable and the other side isn't, depending on which side you're on, right, those polls will shift. And there's little we can do about that, right? About how they talk to each other. But we don't have to talk to each other that way. And we don't have to reduce each other to just our political affiliations.

All of those really reductive ways of categorizing people are just not doing anyone any good, right? So, the kind of spirit where we foreground someone's humanity, I talk to you as a human being with multiple identities and not just like one thing that I disagree with. Maybe it's the dating culture where you just keep swiping on people that you don't like and we kind of think we're bringing that into the real world, like I disagree with you swipe, I don't want to talk to you swipe. But no, we maybe have to go back to a time before this kind of disposability of human beings, right?

Is there actually on the difficult topics, is there actually a conversation going on? I mean, the first thing that comes to mind, Ayu, is, you know, there is no reconciliation when we think of that word without conversation. Is that conversation actually alive? I don't think so. At least I haven't heard it. Maybe it is, but I don't think it's happening. There are things that happen because of,

this is a reconciliation event, but we are not talking about it. We are not addressing the issues that need to be addressed in human to human as a dialogue. We are just not doing it. We're talking about talking about reconciliation. Yeah, we need to have proper conversations and we are not attacking anybody.

We are not going after anybody. We just need to move on, but we need to also talk about what happened and how to heal and how to all live in this world together. Whose responsibility is that? To get, to really truly have that conversation happen on a granular level. It's all our responsibility.

Right, I think we actually need to have the conversation instead of avoiding it or performing gestures towards the conversation. We just actually need to pick a time, pick a place. It's almost like those fights you used to have in primary school. After school, flagpole, 3.30. We're going to talk about this, right? Let's talk about it. We're not talking.

We're not going to fight about it. We're not going to attack. We're just going to talk about it. We'll return to my conversation with Ayu Peter, Sim Kisan Nicolabine and Ian Williams after a brief break. For now, here's another piece from Iqaluit musicians Selena Khalek and Kathleen Merritt. I'm going to high on the lowly I'm a, I'm a, I'm a I don't have to deal

I'm a, I'm a, I'm a I don't do a damn thing I'm a, I'm a, I'm a I'm a, I'm a, I'm a Oh, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my heart, my I'm a place of my need I'm a place of my need I'm a place of my need Oh Oh, Caler, oh, Calerio, oh no, oh no, oh no. I'm going to, I'm not alone I'm not alone, I'm not alone I'm not alone, I'm a young alone I am

I am I am Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, Dao hunga, dao hunga Dinengin rili gala lech luti I'm going to be a good boy. I'm going to be a good boy. I'm going to be a good boy. I'm going to be a good boy. I'm going to be a good boy. I'm going to be a good boy.

I'm going to be a good boy. I'm going to be a good boy. I need being all the time I I I I I Yeah. On ideas, you're listening to music and conversations from Iqaluit Nunavut. You can hear ideas on CBC Radio 1 in Canada, on US Public Radio, across North America, on SiriusXM, on World Radio Paris, in Australia,

on ABC Radio National, and around the world at cbc.ca. ideas. Find us on the CBC News app and wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Nala Ayed. In 2017, it felt like drugs were everywhere in the news. So I started a podcast called On Drugs. We covered a lot of ground over two seasons, but there are still so many more stories to tell. I'm Jeff Turner and I'm back with season three of On Drugs.

And this time it's going to get personal. I don't know who sober Jeff is. I don't even know if I like that guy. On Drugs is available now wherever you get your podcasts. Is this yours or James's? Mine sat home. That was Selena Kalik and Kathleen Merritt, recorded live at the CBC Massey Lecture at Anuksuk High School. In 2024, the Massey Lectures visited a Caliwit Nunavut for the very first time.

In What I Mean to Say, novelist and poet Ian Williams set out to start a conversation about conversations. After his lecture, Ayu Peter and Simuni Kisa Nicolbine joined him on stage to talk about what conversation means in the North. So Ayu, I want to, I want to quote something to you that you once said. You said, in the Inuit language, we don't even have a word for colonization. Yet every cell of me was colonized, every single thought. Luckily, we get proficient at talking about it. It's not a dirty word anymore. What role would you say has conversation played in trying to change the world that you live in? It was very difficult to try to figure out,

because you're just born at a certain time, and you just think that that's how life is supposed to be. But then I realized one day, oh, every cell of me was colonized. Where's this conclusion coming from? Where's this conclusion coming from? Where's this thinking coming from? The way I have to behave, the way I have to talk, the way I have to do things, they were all dictated or imposed on me.

And that was a hard trip. That was a long time for me to figure out, okay, how do we even decolonize and what is even that term in my language? So it's still a struggle, but I think in time we will get there but we actually need to talk about it. How hard is it though to have that conversation, Sim, when, as you say, we can't even, people don't even agree on what decolonize means. There are so many contested words in this world that we live in right now. Even the word truth is contested. Can conversation happen when we have such, when we're at such odds in terms of definition of important words like that?

Yeah. Well, I think conversation needs to continue happening to work through those difficulties. I don't think stopping those conversations is going to bring any good. I think continuing them and trying to approach them from a different way is maybe the way to go about it. Ian, the role of these difficult words, like picking it from where Sim left off, just how much more difficult is the conversation when we can't even agree on basic words?

I think sometimes we can use that as an excuse not to have the conversation at all, right? We get bogged down in the definitions of, what do you mean by decolonized? And what do you mean by it? And I mean this, and I mean that. And the conversation never goes anywhere. I would far prefer like an imperfect and messy conversation. At least it's happening than one where the terms are really neat, like a law or a legal kind of

conversation. I think we just have to find our way from within the conversation instead of getting everything perfect before we go into it. When you look at the Canadian landscape, are there conversations that are ongoing that give you any hope that we actually could surmount these huge differences and these difficult conversations about words we don't agree on? Are there any that give you hope? I need to think about that more. I do, but I will say that there's something generational

happening where younger people are having conversations that the sort of Gen Xers and above have been avoiding for decades, right? And so now everything is coming back on the table, yeah, and with a kind of like press, right, a kind of like urgency about it. And so that's encouraging, right, and with a kind of like press, right, a kind of like urgency about it. And so that's encouraging, right, that the topics are coming back. Okay. Yeah. So before I ask the audience if they have any questions, I just want to ask one final

question to the three of you. Of course, throughout this series, this Massey Lecture Series, we'll be grappling with this one question, with many questions, but this one question. What can talking do to change anything? Back to the point you were making, Ayu. So how would each of you answer that question? Ayu, I'd like to leave you to the end. Okay. Thank you.

I'll start, we'll go from there and from Ian and we'll come back to you, Aiyu. What can conversation do to change anything? That's like chapter one of the book. What did I say back in chapter one? Yeah, I think the solutions are not instantaneous or anything, but for me the actual act of talking is important, right? Whether we arrive at the solution or not, we need to get everybody's sort of input and participation in the conversation. So the process, I'm just gonna like highlight the process of having the conversation for me is as important as the outcome.

Process, Sim, does that sit well with you? Yeah, yeah. Like I would agree with what Yidan's saying, but I would also say reflection into what is going into the conversations. If you're making claims and if there are promises that you're saying, just reflect on and be aware that it's something that you've promised. So, Ayu, the question, what can talking do to change anything? When you asked that, I was thinking, well, the hunters would meet together every morning

before they went anywhere, and they would talk about who would go where and who would go where. That's a conversation. You can't have a conversation with somebody who won't listen or who won't be part of changing anything. It's important that the parties who are conversing are listening but also jump in and agree that

we're going to change this. This is our process and everybody has to be willing to be part of it. You see why I left you for last. Thank you for taking my short questions, all three of you. Let's see what the audience might have to say. There are microphones.

Actually, there's one set up in the middle here. Let's have a conversation. Anyone with a question? A short question preferably. Very short question preferably. Very short question. Sir, go ahead. Recognizing that I'm coloured out and don't like silence and here I am with a conversation

or a talk or a question. As an educator, I'm hopeful that there are meaningful conversations happening in classrooms between students and students, teachers and students and parents and teachers and so on. But back to something I just heard that I think Ian you said process and outcome. So I think science, the conversation is a science. But is it more science or is it more art? And if it's not more science and art, why? Is there a connection? Great question. So the question is for Ian or for everyone? I heard the process and outcome from Ian.

Clearly I'm not listening. I heard the process and outcome from Ian. If Ian would like to start and then Howard the Pound would like to riff with that. Perfect. Thank you. Yeah, I would like to believe it's an art, right? Primarily the conversation isn't sort of regulated by rules, but I actually think like that scientific method of grade school is actually a neat way of thinking about what our conversations are doing, right? What's our purpose?

What are our materials or who is involved in this? What's our ground rules or procedure for this? What are the observations that we're making through a kind of iterative process, right? What's happening? And then what conclusions can we draw from the end? I think if you're inclined and science-minded there there you could probably be strategic and be kind of focused. But I would love to see more of these kinds of like loose rambling conversations without purpose

and without destination that can kind of go wherever they want and we can try to follow the conversation rather than leading the conversation. I think I would like to see more of those happen. Sim or Ah, you to add anything to that? I don't even know what science means, so I would just be rambling off. Any other questions? Please, come on right up. Thank you. Thank you so much. I'm run by my question is when will the general governing bodies in the major Canada adopt the very civilized

way of talking to each other. Also in the parliament, especially when there's diametrical disagreement about things, where the elders here can show utmost respect and openness to the disagreements openness to the disagreements and openness to find the optimal solutions. And I would say in short, maybe in a way that is maybe tomorrow you'll be under the ice and I'll have to help you or I will be under the ice and you'll have to help me. So a conversation that has done that kind of respect for each other's being. When will that be adopted to the rest of Canada? Very civilized. Wow, that's a beautiful question. Thank you. Ayu, what do you think? Do we have a seconder? I mean, it's such a great question because we do watch our elected politicians.

I don't know if you've ever, if any of you remember the last time we've seen a civilized debate. I mean, Perry, I'm casting aspersions there. But anyway, it is true that we don't see in parliament actual conversations or even proper debate. Is it just, is it a phase we're going through or is this just permanent now? And what, I mean, I do want to ask you actually, let me make it more specific. What can we learn from the experiences that our questioner asked here that perhaps might inform and improve the conversations that are happening between legislatures elsewhere? It's the way the system is set up.

The loudest, the smartest, yeah. I wouldn't say elected, but the way the system is set up needs to be changed and re-rhymed in order for it to change. It will not change if we don't take it apart and seriously talk about it. The people that we elect have to buy it. And they need to start talking to each other in a civilized manner. Because they're representing us, we are the ones who elect them. So in that way, maybe we could do a bit of change. So Marie-Anne, anything further? No, just so curious about like how do elders relate

when there are disagreements, right? What is that like when elders disagree? They put on their midst and they start fighting. Somebody said that's not true. That's true. We become very quiet when we disagree. And that is taken as conformity or somebody is agreeing if they're from a different culture. We will not say, oh, you're wrong, or I disagree with that, unless if it's a grave, a big, big mistake maybe, but we'll do it in a kind way. Anyway, before human rights and before charter rights had much broader allowance for the person. And they were given a much bigger lease to be themselves and disagree or be different. I think we were, because of our patients, we are very patient people.

You have to be, to live up here. We will talk to that person in private and not attack them, but speak with them about what we disagree with. What a wonderful approach. We can all learn from that again. Thank you. Please a round of applause to thank our guests. Thank you.

Thank you very much. Thank you for your insight. Thank you for coming. Thank you, Mala. Thank you for being here with us. And thank you so much. Thank you for your insight. Thank you for coming. Thank you, Mala. Thank you for being here with us. And thank you, Sim. Great first panel. And now, another piece from Selena Kallak and Kathleen Merritt.

Kudu Pai, you see? Jagu Romani Rosy. It's a juggling song. Take your socks off and juggle. You say, you say Ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay I'm not going to be a good friend to you I'm not going to be a good friend to you I'm not going to be a good friend to you I'm not going to be a good boy I'm going to be a good boy I'm going to be a good boy I'm going to be a good boy I'm going to be a good boy

I'm going to be a good boy I'm going to be a good boy I'm going to be a good boy I'm going to be a good boy I'm going to be a good boy I'm going to be a good boy I'm going to be a good boy I'm going to be a good boy I'm going to be a good boy Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, I'm a community, community

I'm a community, community So good to go to the good to go to the good to go to the good to go to the good to go to the good to go to the good to go to the good to go to the good to go to the good to go to the good to go to the good to go to the good to go to the good to go to the good to go to the good to go to the good to go to the good to go to the good to go to Hey, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, On ideas, you've been listening to music and conversation recorded at the 2024 CBC Massey Lecture in Iqaluit. Thank you so much for having us here tonight. Thank you to CBC, the Massey Hall, and Selena's babies. And Selena's babies. Thank you so much.

Koyan na me. Our panelists for the evening were Ayu Peter, Simuni Kisan Nicolbine, and Ian Williams. Music by Selena Kallak and Kathleen Merritt. A huge thank you to Jamecee Fournier, our consulting producer in Iqaluit. And thank you to the CBC Library Partnerships Program and the Nunavut Public Library Services for making our Week in Iqaluit possible. The 2024 CBC Massey Lectures were produced by Philip Coulter and Pauline Holdsworth.

You can get the entire series at cbc.ca slash Masses. That's cbc.ca slash Masses. You can also stream episodes through the CBC News app or download the lectures from your favorite podcast app. Your local bookseller will have the book of the lectures, What I Mean to Say, Remaking Conversation in our Time. Our web producer is Lisa Ayuso. Our technical producer, Danielle Duval.

Our senior producer is Nikola Lukcic. The executive producer of the Massey Lectures and Ideas is Greg Kelly. And I'm Nala Ayed. We have time for one last song. Once again, here's Selena Kalak and Kathleen Ivaliwaktuk-Merritt. I'm I'm Mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, mame, The