Ideas - The final days of Jesus as 'heard' by J.S. Bach

Episode Date: April 2, 2026

St. John Passion — the complex masterpiece by Johann Sebastian Bach tells the story of Jesus during his final days. It's a work that speaks to the heart of the Christian narrative, which itself lies at the heart of Western culture. Tafelmusik Chamber Choir Director Ivars Taurins and music broadcaster Robert Harris zoom in on the work from the conductor's perspective to show how the notes translate into meaning — at a level of detail we listeners rarely discern.

Life changes fast. One thing shouldn't. Your storage price. At XYZ storage, lock in your rate for a full year with our industry first locked in pricing promotion. No surprises, no sudden increases. Just secure, affordable storage you can count on. Whether you're storing a little or a lot, now's the time to make your move. Visit XYZ Storage.ca or your nearest location today. This is a CBC podcast. Welcome to Ideas. I'm Nala Ayyit. On Good Friday in the year 1725, the parishioners of St. Thomas Church in Leipzig, Germany, witnessed one of the great masterpieces of Western music. The Passion, according to the Gospel of St. John, written and led by the church's music director, won Johann Sebastian Bach. But the St. John Passion, the faithful heard that Good Friday, was Bach's second version of the piece. A year earlier, he'd presented his original conception with its original opening. Not that pastoral chorus, but this. This is what tore out of the musical mind of 39-year-old Johann Sebastian Bach.

It's what opens up the story of the passion of Jesus Christ, as told in the Gospel of St. John. It's also a work of many mysteries. And it falls to one person above all to unravel them, the conductor of the St. John Passion, who leads soloists and orchestra and a choir for over two hours. Without music, man is little more than a stone. Evar's Torrens is the leader of the world-famous Tafel Music Chamber Choir in Toronto, and has led his taffle music colleagues through the mysteries of the St. John Passion, note by note.

So on this episode of Ideas, an inside look at the St. John Passion, Evars Torrens in conversation with Ideas contributor Robert Harris. So, Evars, those three chords, those three chords that the chorus sings. Yeah, they're an exhortation of Lord, Lord, Lord, the first one in... ...and... ...and... And then the cruncher. You know, it's so interesting because when you and I have been talking about this in the past,

the three chords have three different characters to them, right? So the first one is a minor chord. And you expect that because that's what you... But the next one is a major chord. And then you get the diminished chord. And then the diminished showing that incredible tension. It's also against this bass, which is even more. So you know what I was thinking that...

If you take those first three chords, minor, major, and diminish, and play them in a different order, minor, diminished, and major, that's the entire arc of the piece. Yes. The whole two and a half hours, in a way, has been prefigured by those three chords. The architecture is just huge in this. This opening chorus, you know, he sets us, he throws us right in because St. John's Gospel doesn't start with The Last Supper

and any of the stuff that's beforehand, he throws us right into the arrest of Christ. And so this opening with this throbbing sets us right in the middle. And yet it's almost as though we also, as you say, have this overview that we are the spectators of this and we see it happening and we're unable to do anything about it. So let me just back up for a second.

So as the conductor of this piece, how do you approach it? In other words, what's going through your mind when you pick up the score? Right here. Here's the score of the St. John Passion. It's 200 and so-od. You know, there's black notes on a piece of page. You have to raise those black specs off the page.

And that's the artist performer part where you use all your art and everything that you've, all the information you've gathered and all the analysis. But the audience, the listener, the partaker of this. is not interested in that at all, they want to be moved. And so ultimately, that is your goal, and that is your job when you do the upbeat and start this massive piece. This is a Christian story.

It was in fact performed in church. Most of the people listening to it today aren't Christian or are there lapsed Christians? So where's the meaning? Is there a meaning that you think of as a conductor for people like me who is not a Christian? that I can learn something from this people? Well, all the elements in it are basically universal.

They're the human condition. So we go through the struggle between from darkness to light. There's truth and ignorance. There's belief and doubt. Compassion, prejudice. Those are all elements that are. are part of the human condition and that are beyond just a religion. And Christ's story in this and his struggles, it becomes a universal story. So we, as audience matter, see the big picture,

the big picture of this. And you, as the conductor of this, have to see that picture as well. But you get to zoom into this sort of molecular level of the piece, you know, down to these chords. What interests me, and maybe you can talk about this, is that the two levels are the same. In other words, when you zoom into Bach's tiny, tiniest level, exactly the same proportions, the same theory, the same feeling is present that's present at the top. Completely. Well, let's, in fact, just take apart that opening chorus. Sure. So you start off with that throbbing beat. This is in the cellos and basses and bassoons, and it just... So you're torn, as you say, you're right in the thick of terror.

of fear of unease, right from the first note. And just by the big note. And it's unmoving. It just sits for bars and bars on that. Then placed on top of that. Well, you keep playing that. So here's what we have in the strings. I'll try and do this, okay?

It's unbelievable, too. You see here, we're getting farther. You see here, we're getting farther tension is building. You never move. I keep moving. And you can feel it. What have I got? It's like somebody who can.

move and you want to pull them and pull them and pull them and pull them. And what is that? That's Christ's heartbeat. That's the Roman soldiers. I hear this figure as the onrush of events of fate of the people that are coming to arrest him. And the figure itself is so fascinating because it goes around on itself. It eats itself. This surge, unstoppable surge, is there. And we are thrown right in the middle of it. Yeah. And it just builds and builds and builds. But on top of that, we have these wins.

And, you know, and so in Western music, we have chords, right? We have, you know, lots of chords. And when we talk about dissonance, the closest dissonance we have is two notes that are right beside on the piano keyboard, like a, like, you know,

and what do we get? That's all we get, right? And so these wins, it's so amazing. I'll try and play the wind parts. I'm going to keep you playing that bass. And I'll try to just hear the pain. You've mentioned to me that some conductors hear this as the nails in the cross. Yeah. And it has that exact feeling.

It has that. It could be either the agony in the garden, nails in the cross, but it is painful and it's meant to be. Okay, you go ahead. Okay. And another one. Swinding its way through. And again.

And another one. Now they get further apart. Still a dissonance. Yes. And then, finally, finally. Yeah, the bass moves, right? Now it's moving every bar and creating a kind of harmonic.

And now it happens. And now... The bass moves down with me, right? Yes. To the first... Hello! What? a journey. It says, Lord our ruler, who's renowned, is glorious in all land. So it's about

Christ glorified. Yes. It's glorification through the passion. He has to get to the throne of the Christian world through his suffering. But there is the congregation saying, we're with you. So let's talk a bit about how a passion works. It's not everybody knows how a passion works. So basically it was a part of a religious service. It happened on Good Friday. It was a long, long, old tradition, right? Yeah. And basically it's the reciting, it's the reading of the chapters in the various gospels

that deal with the arrest, the trial, and the crucifixion. That's right. The spine of it is the text of St. John. Yeah. Word for word. And originally it would have been done very simply. It would have been chant. Yeah, you mean like Gregorian?

That's right. The chant developed more as we got into the 17th and 18th centuries, the main mode of telling a story was recitative. And it was a vehicle to tell you a lot of information and do it in a way that mirrored speech. So they're looking for something natural, something visceral. I do this for my students to just to show you how rest it works. It's me telling the story of what I had for breakfast.

This morning I had eggs for breakfast. slice of bacon and a grilled tomato a slice of toast and a cup of coffee and with it all my morning paper Now what I've done is of course this is all It's a lovely melodic line But I have delivered it as speech Right

Well let's in fact listen to the very beginning of So after we've heard this chorus We'll listen to the beginning of the St. John Passion and rather than talking about what they had for breakfast, we've got a little bit of a sadder story here, and the evangelist says, Jesus went forth with his disciples over the Brook Cedron. Where there was a garden,

but she entered with his disciples, and Judas, you can hear that Judas which betrayed him, knew the place for Jesus, resorted thither with his disciples. Judas Judas

received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees with lanterns, torches, and weapons. Here they come. I can almost understand even if you don't listen. So Jesus, knowing all things that should come to pass, went forth and said under him, who she said he is Jesus. They answered him.

Jesus, Jesus come there to death, Jesus comes there to death. So it's really interesting you mentioned. So the choir. sings Jesus. Who do you sing Jesus of Nathus? It's just Jesus of Nathoris. But Bach has expanded it. And it's so important, I think.

What interests me so much about this is where we, who's who. So the choir is, takes so many roles in this, right? So they're, as you say, they're part of the story. And we'll see when, you know, they're the people who scream for Christ to be crucified and demand Barabbas and are, you know, beyond horrible in part two. But they're also the people who are the Roman soldiers sometimes. and the high priests. And the high priests sometime.

And so we as the congregation, it seems to be inevitably identified with the choir. So that's us. So we're the high priests and we're the people who have come to arrest Jesus. And it's so interesting to me how our imaginations work, you know, because we take all of these roles. And so that the religious sentiment becomes so visceral, whether you're a believer or not. This is, I guess, my only thing to say about the St. John Passion is it doesn't make any difference, what religion you are. The power of the drama

it becomes so powerful. But there's one special thing that the choir does, that the congregation in effect does. And that are these corrals. Oh, great love, oh love beyond all measure. So it's talking directly to Jesus now. They're not the crowd anymore, and it's just seconds later. I live with the world in joy and delight,

and thou must suffer. So these corrals are us contemplating ourselves. Exactly. And so we see these events unfolding and we have to come to grips with them. And the corrals give us the opportunity to contemplate our lives in this, how we'll react through these amazing, they're basically hymns. Yeah, they are. And Luther, he himself said, But without music, man is little more than a stone.

So obviously the congregation sits down to hear the St. John Passion. They never heard it before. It's all unfamiliar to them. But these chorale tunes are ultra-familiar to them. Yes. And then those were transferred into as a major element. I mean, the backbone of these passions and the Lutheran faith is these corrals. And it melts away.

Oh, so beautiful. You know, it's so interesting because we started out with that. drama of the arrest and we're eventually going to hear the drama of the crucifixion, for goodness say, and these just glows of light, these rays of light, there's so, and then add to that, this is music I know, so that not only do I hear the beauty of it, but I feel connected. It's the psychology of these things, it's really hard for us, I think, in a modern context to really recover that. But when you actually start to think of how many different psychological levels, we get musical,

Just the psychology of this. It's really, so Bob was a psychologist as well as a, and a theologian as well as a musician. And to realize that in creating this architecture, this structure of the passions, this is how he does it. He uses these corrals as the pillars filled in between with the scripture story

and the arias and the big choruses at the beginning at the end. So we've got sort of the elements. We've got the corrals. We've got the choruses. We've got the choir as part of the story. And then as you mentioned, the last element is these arias, which are there to sort of reflect. Yeah.

And in other circles, they were kind of the main meat and potatoes of it in terms of not having the scripture. They were the vehicle to express the emotion. So there were a lot more of them. Right. For me, what's remarkable is that throughout the St. John Passion, they become very intimate. Some of them are only accompanied by two, three instruments, and they become a focus. And in aria, unlike Reset, you stretch words out.

So if you're dealing with pain or tears, things are stretched out, and this heightens things even more. Well, it's interesting. You talk about the intimate aria, one that is. not intimate, is Ahmad Zinn, which is the betrayal of Peter, right? So the betrayal of Peter, when he denies Christ three times, is sort of the first hint of all of our betrayals, right? It stands for the betrayal, which leads, because it's our sinfulness that leads to the necessity for his sacrifice. Yeah. You know, you talk about the syllabic nature of the reticatives, but every so often, Bach really goes to town with those reticatives to really make you feel the text,

right? Well, he also, again, he wanted to put the drama back right in. So he has the evangelist talk about Peter realizing that he has now denied Christ three times, and now he weeps bitterly. Right. So the text itself is, and Peter remembered the word of Jesus and went out and wept bitterly. That's all the text says. Ah, my sin, ah, my soul, where finally wilt thou go, where shall I restore my soul? A dramatic. Where will you end up?

Endish in? Where shall I'm Ackliq? Where do I'm Ackleckon? Oh, where should I speak?

A dramatic piece of music. You've already been through the ringer washer with the evangelist's portrayal of Peter's

It's not crying, it's wailing. Yeah. It's absolutely wailing. And then this outburst it goes right to the heart. And wasn't entirely especially well received. No, it was confusion.

This whole idea, first of all, of putting concerted music, art music, into a service. Some people thought it was actually a good thing to get people, to get bums and seats, basically. But here's the con. That's the pro. You have a quote, some famous quotes from the time. But gradually, the passion story,

which had formerly been sung in simple, plain chant, humbly and reverently, began to be sung with many kinds of instruments in the most elaborate fashion. When this passion music was performed for the first time in one of our great cities with violins and many oboes, bassoons and other instruments, many people were shocked and didn't know what to make of it. In the pew of a noble family in church, many ministers and noble ladies were present and sang the first passion hymn, the first choral, from their books with great devotion. But when this theatrical music commenced, all these people were filled with the greatest amazement

and looked at each other and said, may God preserve us children. It's as if a person were at the opera or the theater. Everyone thoroughly disapproved of the music and registered justified complaints about it. I can just imagine. Today it would be emails. Then they said, of course,

there were also such spirits as take pleasure in such vain aberrations. especially if they are of a sanguine nature and are given to voluptuousness. You're listening to Ideas on CBC Radio 1 in Canada, across North America, on SiriusXM, and around the world at cbc.ca.ca slash ideas. You can also hear ideas on the CBC Listen app or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Nala Ayyed. Life changes fast. One thing shouldn't.

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The St. John Passion by Johann Sebastian Bach is central to Western culture and to the Christian faith. It was first presented on Good Friday in Leipzig, our guides are conductor Evar's Torrens of Toronto's Tafel Music Baroque Orchestra and contributor Robert Harris. So Peter's Payne

at his betrayal ends part one of the St. John Passions. Basically there's a chorale that comes after that and when part two opens and they're not equivalent, part one's about a third and part two is about two thirds of the piece. Yeah, the first part goes quite quickly.

It's almost like a long introduction. Yeah, really is. Then we're really plunged right back into the darkness that we heard at the very beginning. Led before godless people, falsely accused, derided, mocked, and spat upon, as the scripture says. And of course, that is, one of the interesting things about the St. John Passion is so much of the text of the gospel is centered on these trial scenes. When Jesus comes before Pilate, and then when Pilate

talks to the high priests, and then when he brings him out several times, clearly trying to get him to not to have to have this fate. The Jews identified as the Jews in the St. John Gospel and not always in the other gospel. And the Jews are just hysterical, you know, hysterical and mocking. It's a mob mentality. And it's so interesting because, as you know, the vehemence with which Bach has set these choruses is so amazing that, you know, People wondered whether he or the peace or somehow charges of anti-Semitism were laid at this thing. And, you know, I can understand why. When we hear the music, you'll understand why, because that that crowd is set amazingly.

But to my mind, if I may say so, it just seems like the wrong thing to say because the whole point, and in fact the corrals make it clear that it isn't the Jews mocking and, you know, sort of misunderstanding of Jesus that's led to his. It's all of us. It's all of us. It's the humanity. Yeah. In other words, the Jews are just standing for all of us. And again, but what's interesting to me is that congregation and that choir, boy, we talked

about how they sort of take a role, but boy, oh boy, do they get, I mean, I don't know, how you as a conductor try to, you know, because they're hard. They're hard, and they're also very short. They're so intense. It's like putting your finger in a socket for a second. It's just there and you're in it and then they're done. And yet, there's still. still tension

it's built. It's like screwing tighter and tighter. And screwed right into our hearts. Right. Right in. So why don't we listen to some of these? So here's the first one. So Pilate goes out to the Jews and he says, what accusation bringing you against this man?

And the Jews say, what are they saying? These harmonies, and it goes on and on. You say they're short, but they're over the top. They're hysterical. These people are hysterical, right? One voice goes up, the other goes down.

Yeah, just to the top of the range of the voice. I repeat, no, no, no. But we're not finished yet. You thought we were done, no. This power of anger. It's power of hatred. That's what this is, you know? And then Pilate says, okay, you know, you crucify him.

So what they've said is, we wouldn't have brought him before you if he wasn't a bad guy. Yeah. You judged him according to your laws. Yeah. And they respond. So this time they add those, that little, walking little flutes and the high liens. It's like they can't contain their anger and their anger. and they're hateful at this morning.

Criss-crossing. And actually, in a way, sometimes following each other, just like you do in crowds. One person starts something. You know, as I say, you can understand why people got angry or not. But if you're listening to this as a congregation, you are so drawn into this. They say, he's so brilliantly created a crowd scene, the anger.

So Pilots says, you know, basically, what is this guy done? And they are, all the text says is it wasn't a malefactor we wouldn't have brought in before you, but that's not what Bach has done. No. It's created this, oh, it's just amazing. And to my mind, these choruses are almost more poignant, not when they're angry, but when they're mocking. Yes.

So again, now this is the Roman soldiers. But it's the same choir. So me as a congregation, I identify them. So now I'm the Roman soldiers. I'm not the Jews. I'm the Roman soldiers. And, you know, so they, you know, they scourge him. And again, there's an incredible retitative for.

that. And, you know, the Romans mock him and they put this purple robe and they put the crown of Thornton and the Roman soldiers say, you know, behold the king of the Jews. So I grew up, and listen to a way of sound. So mean. You see them dancing around. Yes. Pale. And you can even see them cursing. I get short, but privy to the point. And then the way it's, you're plunged right back into the text. Through the evangelism. Yeah, no, it's amazing.

And then, of course, there's the moment twice when the crowd basically braze out, like, the mob, you know, crucify him, right? So the second time, it's, you know, it's away with him, right? Crucifoyim. Yeah. So it doesn't start with Kreuzegu, which is, I remember going to a rehearsal where you were telling your choir to hit that K really hard. It can't be Roizegu.

No, you've got to be able to hear the, like, bones cracking, the, Kreuziger. Well, it's like kill them. Yeah. And it needs to kind of cataple itself out of the texture of the singing and of the orchestra. And in this one, the rhythm of Kreuziger, Kreuziger, the German word. It's like a dump, da dump, and a dump, which we find back in Beethoven, the 9th symphony. It's just so overpowering. So let's listen to the vague. And again, we have these clashes. One voice comes in on one beat with Kro, and the next voice

right up against him, Kroi. It's a stuff again. Yeah, exactly. Let's take a listen. Here's your king. Away with her. Great written to her middle, bang, back, back, back. Right here.

He just shout. Kill him. Kill him. But it's screaming. And the orchestra is just incessant. and those seconds you think there's those dissidents yeah

and down fever pitch on higher it's just that and that the tenor sort of wound around it how do you deal this with your chorus I mean how do you get them to express this time?

It has to be it's a lot of work at one or so I said okay just put one foot forward of the other, put your shoulder forward, and spit these words out. Because it's in a way, it's no longer singing. It is, but you have to throw yourself into it. And with the German language, it's not easy for English speakers to go Kreuzzeke, Kreuzzeke, all in a row. And so there's that tension there of that word being thrown out.

It's something, again, it's subliminal. But you feel the screws tightening. that we're leading towards this crucifixion. It's inevitable. It's the tide. I want to play that course. Just one more time. You know, and maybe this is a sexist thing to say,

but I'm going to say it anyway. You hear vig, vig, vig, vig, big, big, and then it's your supremac. That moment when they just shout out Kreutziger. So the first kill him, the first crucify him, is the women's voices. Women's voices. And, you know, whether it's intentional or not,

and whether we should have these feelings, but the notion that women are more, you know, loving and generous. And, of course, we've got the figure of Mary that we're going to see in a few minutes. Right. So, man, it's so... It's visceral.

That sense of shiver. And, you know, that's a shiver. And, you know, that's the symbol. You know, it's interesting that, you know, um, one of the things that interests me is that the whole, all the extremes, you know, the whole story of the passion is a story of extremes. You know, what happens to Jesus is extreme, you know, the scourgeon is extreme. The mocking is extreme, the death is extreme.

But it's necessary because the sinfulness that he is the sacrificial lamb has to be extreme as well or else that sacrifice has no meaning. Completely. And there it is, you know. So it's clear why Bach has to set these things so dramatically. Because if you don't feel as a congregation listening to the choir and sort of identifying with them. Well, you know, and these sort of things, we have to remember that, for instance, public executions were daily occurrences.

In box time. You're walking through the streets in Leipzig and someone's being, it could be a 19-year-old girl about to be beheaded. And so this visceral quality or the idea of crowd mob reaction is there. I mean, they used to be entertainments as well. So there's that element as well in our humanity that there's an accident. Oh, let's go see it. Yeah, that's true. Anyway, so we hit a low point in the arc of this story at this point, right? You know, basically. But, you know, the point of this passion when we started was, in fact, to reinforce our faith, right? And so, Christ glorified. So Christ glorified. And so, of course, the Bach helps the congregation back on the upswing, and he does so with a corral, you know. In the depths of my heart,

thy name and cross alone shine forth at all times and hours, wherefore I can be joyful. You can hear the Pope in it, and the light will shine for all time. And on that I will be joyful. There's a comfort in my sorrow. How the Lamb of God has been sacrificed. So it's taken it right back into our present day and into a much more beautiful uplifting and box just starting. this point. Because, you know, we've moved from a crowd in Jerusalem screaming for Jesus' blood

to a believing, thankful, Christian, faithful of 18th century German. It's sort of a miracle of musical transformation. It draws you in. The music is bittersweet. You've got these viola demure that have this silky, heavenly, unworldly sound. And these instruments were actually connected with funeral music. So there is this kind of muffled sorrow, but also there's light in it. And then, on top

of that, the lute playing these heavenly little harp-like arpeggios. And against that we have this inevitable pedal, this plo. It's like a tolling of a bell.

Right. You really, if you get swirled into it too much, that's one place I certainly can lose it all too easily. So, you know, from here on in, you know, the music sort of takes over, and we're moving the arc upwards. I mean, there's sorrow still. But, you know, we've moved beyond the horror of the crowd,

that hatefulness of the crowd, you know? It's like observing, I mean, all the suffering that's happening now, it's like observing it in slow motion. There he is. He has been scourged. He has been mocked. Ece Omo.

There he is in front of us. What will we do? As one of the lines says, what will you on your part do? Talk to me about Maitoara, the bass aria, where now the chorale, the choir actually comes in

and the two, the arias and the chorale joined together. Well, the Maintoyer Highland, this beautiful lilton. Again, it's like a dance. It's for cello solo. And the instructions even by Bach

Spicado mean that it's meant to be done with some kind of ease to it. Then, here comes the choral again in a different way. Bach not only has this amazing art, but he superimposes another text by putting a choral on top. It's there as a kind of Greek chorus

with another text and superimposed for another layer of understanding. Unbelievable. So you can really hear the juxtaposition of the end. This is something about no one else has ever done anything like this that we know of. This is just sheer virtual. And again, he's binding all the elements, musical elements, compositional elements,

into one very strong architecture. So, you know, it seems to me as the piece moves towards its conclusion, it's an odd conclusion on Good Friday, because the resurrection hasn't happened yet, so we're left in this sort of limbo. Limbo. But we know that something, so it's a combination where our sorrow, helps us move on. It's not our happiness to move on.

It's our son. And Zerfisa, this unbelievable soprano aria. Yeah. It really just explains. It has that. Yeah, we've had the earthquake. After the crucifix. After the crucifixion, all hell breaks loose, basically.

Right. We hear the earthquake, the eclipse, and then this unearthly introduction, which asks the question, as it says, the veil is red, the rocks crumbled. the earthquakes, the graves split open because they see the creator growing cold, and what wilt thou do for thy part? What will you do about all of this? And the answer is

this heartbreaking, well, that that's exactly what it is. Disolve my heart in floods of tears to honor the most high. And you can't get more intimate than the sound of a flute and this odd instrument, the obo-de-cacha, they're both crying, and you hear the drops of their tears. But this is the question, what will you do? Tell the world to the heaven, the anguish, thy Jesus is dead. So, ruinful, I mean, we're now, we're back where we began in the way, only in that we now have the same, we have a chorus at the end of the piece. As it was in the beginning. And the beginning, if you remember, was dark and friday. frightening and terrifying.

And now we have, you know, a piece. It's like a lullaby. It is a lullaby. It's in triple meter. It's this gentle... Bach uses dance. It permeates all his music. It's part there.

You don't realize it, but it is a dance of God, if you will. And it's also a little bit of a dirge. And the instruments are very... veiled and hushed, and all we're saying is rest well. Yeah, it's a face. Holy limbs or holy bones, however you want to translate, Routvol, Heiligieggegegegeye. So you told me a story when, you performed this piece four times.

Right. I saw you on Saturday, and you were a little shaken. It was interesting, and you told me a story that the night before, in the middle of Ruud Vole, will you tell me? Well, I, I, it is a, is a, an extended piece and it has sections that keep coming back, like a Greek chorus, if you will. And I was thinking about the final piece, which this isn't the final piece, it has a, there's a beautiful choral at the end. And I'm thinking about that just before the final play out from the

instruments of Rudevon. And I get to the last chord. And you know how sports people say you get in the zone? Well, I was so in the zone. zone at that moment that I went out of the zone somewhere else. It was like a port key that I was stuck in and it was the oddest experience. People wondered whether I just forgot but I would not I can't explain it that way. I got to the final chord and there is a silence and there's a silence I've got my eyes closed and I don't want to break it. I am there. I have finished that lament, rest well, and it must have been 10 seconds.

And then I open my eyes and I have the four solo was standing in front of me with very wide eyes, looking rather worried about we still have a corral to sing. And it was, I was shaken afterwards. I've gathered myself together, but it was an out-of-body experience

if there's one that I could imagine, that was it, as I say, so far into the music and into the zone that I had lost myself in it. That's what this piece does to you. You know, if Bach were looking down on us today, he would be so pleased, right? Because basically, I mean, you're a professional musician. This doesn't happen to you often, if ever before.

And that hasn't, no. And you were tired, and I know you've been working really hard. But still, that's what it's about. You know, I mean, that's what, I mean, in the ideal world, we in the audience, you see, we can do that at will. And we do. And so amazing to me, that's such a tribute to the power of this music, it seems to me. Because as I said at the beginning, the arc of a human story that this music tells is so powerful and so satisfying, so satisfying,

that you can understand why people for 200 years and 200 years from now will continue to... With music that is unparalleled. Yeah. So we're going to play the close and corral after, but just at the end. But I want to thank you first for sharing all of these wonderful insights. A wonderful journey. Yeah, we've enjoyed it. Thank you, Evars, very much.

Thank you. On Ideas, you've been listening to Tafel music director, Evars Torrens, and Ideas contributor, Robert Harris, on the St. John Passion by Johann Sebastian Bach. You can let us know your thoughts about anything you've heard on the show or any other by going to our website at cbc.ca.ca slash ideas, where you can also get our podcast. Technical production, Danielle Duval.

The web producer for ideas is Lisa Ayuso. Nikola Likic is the senior producer. The executive producer of ideas is Greg Kelly, and I'm Nala Ayyad. For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca.ca.