Ideas - The Hague: City of Peace and Justice

Episode Date: March 13, 2024

In a world where peace and justice can be hard to come by, The Hague in The Netherlands projects something special: the city is a base for several world courts, as well as non-governmental organizations, charities and non-profits. It's even earned itself the title of the "City of Peace and Justice." In The Fire Within Us, IDEAS takes a look at why some organizations call The Hague home.

Hey there, I'm Kathleen Goltar and I have a confession to make. I am a true crime fanatic. I devour books and films and most of all true crime podcasts. But sometimes I just want to know more. I want to go deeper. And that's where my podcast Crime Story comes in. Every week I go behind the scenes with the creators of the best in true crime. I chat with the host of Scamanda, Teacher's Pet, Bone Valley, the list goes on. For the insider scoop, find Crime Story in your podcast app. This is a CBC Podcast. Welcome to Ideas. I'm Nala Ayed. Welcome to Ideas, I'm Nala Ayed.

In a violent world where peace is elusive and justice difficult to come by, trust in global institutions is eroded. International organizations are struggling to hold together a fraying world order and a broken international justice system. Struggling to project legitimacy, never mind to inspire hope. One sleepy city in the Netherlands has long quietly tried to push back. The fact that this flame is here, the fact that we're talking about hope, I think that's a positive thing. And every now and then, there is light. Every now and then. The Hague is an important

cultural, political, and business center. But even its name projects something special. Few phrases like The Hague can better conjure up the image of justice delivered, of war criminals answering for their crimes. The city is headquarters for several world courts, as well as many non-governmental organizations, charities and non-profits working in the field of international development and law. With all this activity, The Hague has adopted a slogan for itself, the International City of Peace and Justice. So I don't know whether war is always the answer.

The table, a seat at the table, is perhaps the best place to find answers and to find solutions. Today on Ideas, a tour through the City of Peace and Justice. We'll also be hearing from some of the organizations that make The Hague their home to find out what they do and what it is about The Hague that makes it an important place to work in. We're calling this program The Fire Within Us. Our main guide in the City of Peace and justice is Rabin Baldu Singh, former deputy mayor of The Hague, and at present the national coordinator against discrimination and racism.

We picked him up by taxi early on a rainy Saturday morning for a guided tour through the city. No, no, no. Yeah, might as well, right? So we are actually in the heart of the city, the city, The Hague, which is also known as the international city of peace and justice, a very quiet city on the one hand, but also a very vibrant city on the other. That's a contradiction. But what I mean with vibrant is that, you know, in the last decades, it has changed tremendously from a monocultural city to

what's a multicultural city. So the city consists of around 560,000 people, of which almost 50% is of migrant background. Especially if you look at the young people, then it's more than 50%. the young people, then it's more than 50%. The largest community would be people from the Caribbean part, so Suriname. And then the second largest community are the Turkish people, and then the Moroccan, and of course, people from eastern part of Europe. And lately, we're getting people also, of course, as migrants, asylum seekers from Africa, Middle East, of course, India is very important. How recent is that change? Now, it is actually in the last 10 years, you might say that. But, of course, The Hague has had a demographic change from, let's say, the early 80s.

So it has changed tremendously, yeah. May I ask where you were born? I was born in Suriname, South America. You know, Suriname used to be a colony of the Netherlands. And in 1975, it got its independence. Before the independence, actually, it got its independence in november and in october i left as a 13 year old teenager what is it a boy and then i settled down first in leiden you know the university city uh lived five years and from 1980 onwards i'm i'm building living here in the hague

i was 18 years old when i decided to come to the Hague, and perhaps that was the most important decision I made in my life, because when I came here, you know, I saw indeed people around me of all kinds of cultural backgrounds, but especially Surinamese Indian background, and, you know, it was familiar. I felt happy and you know I got culturally and socially active in the community and because of that the political activities came along with it so so it it brought me on a natural basis into you know, an emancipation process. So that's why I ended up here.

Yeah, so now we are actually, while we're talking, we are now actually here at the Peace Palace. You know, the Peace Palace, which is a very important institution for the international city of peace and justice. All right, well, let's take a look. Yeah, please, let's do it. All right, well, let's take a look. Yeah, please, let's do it. All right. Mind your steps.

Do you remember the first time you saw this? Yeah, that's quite a long time ago. You know, then I was really in my teens. So what was I? 20 years or something. When I first saw this Peace Palace, and it was really a magical place. I actually did not understand what the meaning of the Peace Palace really was. Of course, a beautiful building built in 1913 by the Carnegie Foundation.

But, you know, it is more than only the stones actually. I mean this is the place where the international world meets when there is a dispute, when justice has to take its place. So the International Court of Arbitration is here, the International Court of Justice is here, the Hague International Academy of Law is also here. So it's an interesting place. And this is the place which makes the Hague actually the international city of peace and justice. And I've been here now many, many, many, many, many times.

You know, when I used to be deputy mayor in this city, when I used to be deputy mayor in this city, but also now as a government commissioner in the function of national coordinator against discrimination and racism. And you know, I'm very glad that this building is here in this place because it not only gives, characterizes The Hague as the international city of peace and justice, but it gives us hope. It's a place of hope, it's a place of justice, and it's a place of, you know, hope in that sense that, you know, there is no place in the world of impunity. And that is what it symbolizes also for me. And on a national basis, it is also symbolizing that,

you know, the equality which has its foundation in the constitution of the Kingdom of the Netherlands should be respected. And I think that that is the challenge which lay ahead for this country. So yes, I'm troubled about some international developments, Ukraine, for example, China, Taiwan, but also what's going on in Israel and Gaza, of course, has its impact, not only here in the Peace Palace, but also in the city. But I'm very much worried about polarization, about populism. We have seen that in the United States of America. We've seen that in the Balkans. And now we are facing that also here in the Netherlands. It's so interesting that you bring in the Peace Palace in the thinking about these problems. I wonder because you're a

deputy mayor whether you have a sense of how the average person who lives in this city sees it. Do they see it the same way? Yes and no. So yes it makes actually everybody proud that you know this is the international city of peace and justice and that this place of hope, this place of justice is within our municipal borders. But mind you, this is situated not very far away from the city centre, but most of the people who are confronted with injustice do not live in this area. So for them, it's very far away. So if you're talking about, for example, a borough called Schilderswijk or a borough called Transvaal,

where most of the migrant people live, I mean, for them, it's a little bit far. Remote. It's remote physically, but also in their thinking, because they don't get confronted as I do, for example, professionally, but also somebody who is very much interested, of course, in these issues. So that's why it's a yes or a no. My name is Robert O'Kellar. I work as the Europe Lead for Barefoot Law. Barefoot Law is essentially an organisation on the mission to get the law to protect vulnerable people across the world.

And how do we do that? that as we know very well that close to 5.1 billion people across the world do not have access to justice or not able to utilize the justice systems and 90% of these people are located in what we call economically impoverished countries and in the context where I work, in Uganda, in a number of African countries, almost 80% of the people are not able to utilize the justice systems. So how does Barefoot Law come in? We come in to beautify the law. By that I mean we try to break down legal information

to make it more easily understandable to communities so that they can use it to protect themselves. So how Barefoot Law works, we start by broadcasting legal information. For example, we send out information about land rights. If you are in a customary land, you need to go and register that land. customary land, you need to go and register that land. So when people receive that information, they start going to different justice points that Barefoot Law has set out, which is what we call the law box. These are shipping containers that we have converted into digital hotspots that are placed within communities, that communities can use to speak to lawyers directly

on the base in Kampala. So we've put those law boxes in those communities that have very low or poor internet connectivity. So it's a fast access point bringing a technology closer to communities so that they use it as an avenue to access. Barefoot Law is based in the HEC because for the past 10 years we've been doing work on law and technology, and this has been happening in Uganda, in Africa. And after the pandemic, I think a lot of different sectors,

from education to legal to health have appreciated the role that technology plays in development sectors. So Barefoot Law has moved to the HEC simply to use the HEC as a launchpad for the different technologies that we have developed over the years in Uganda. We want to spread it across different parts of the world, starting with Africa. The importance of intersections between the different NGOs that work in the HEC. For me, I think the most important thing is building synergies in areas that we work in. We work in the justice sector, but there are immediate NGOs that work on economic empowerment, for example. There's immediate NGOs that work in agriculture, food

production, for example. So I think it's very important to create that synergies, you know, so that we offer holistic support, you know, to people that need it across the world. And in context, where I come from is that when people resolve their justice or resolve their conflicts peacefully, that leads to peace. And we believe that when conflicts are resolved in a peaceful manner, that creates harmony within the society. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I imagine for the more recent migrants or immigrants here that someone like you also represents a kind of hope.

You know, you have to realize, and I feel pained, you know, talking about this. The Netherlands, even, what is it it in what they call the golden ages, it has been a country, you know, with the eyes open forward, looking at the world, facing the world with commercial activities, whatnot. And now what you see in the last few decades, that it is turning its back towards the world and it is closing its eyes what is happening. So, you know, was it last year or the year before?

It was in the aftermath of the coronavirus pandemic. You know, we had had this challenge of asylum seekers. And there is a place here in the Netherlands called Ter Apel, you know when you enter the Netherlands you go there and I have been living here in this country for 48 years now and I had never seen that before that people, migrant people, asylum seekers were sleeping you know in front of the building on the on the, on the streets, in tents, waiting to be treated as humans. And even a baby died.

And the situation was that everybody was silent. Everybody was silent. And that triggered something in me, that these are the outcomes of populism, of populistic politics. And that is what has happened here. And I'm very worried about that. Let me show you something. So this is the place.

So this is the Peace Palace where we're standing right now in front of the gates. So you see the flag of the United Nations. So this is indeed international territory. I don't know, you've been here before, I presume. Yes, we have. But have you seen that? No, what is that? Okay, so that's an interesting thing.

So it's a kind of... Can we take a look? Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So this is, how do you say it, a flame. It's called the World Peace Flame. And, you know, there is a guy, Mansukh Patel, an Indian origin guy living in Wales, I believe, in the United Kingdom. And, you know, he started a walk. So he is walking all over the world with a kind of a peace march. He's doing that alone or with a small group, etc. And in some major cities, he is putting up these flames.

So he has done that in several cities. And now he has done that also here in the Netherlands. And he did that here in front of the Peace Palace. I was talking about hope, right? I mean, and it's not just hope as far as i am concerned but it is it's also people in the world looking at this peace palace and talking about peace and talking about hope and and this flame symbolizes actually yeah international justice you might say and, and that there is no place for impunity or whatever. You know, as politicians, but as countries in the world,

there is one very important thing which we should take into account, and that is that you have to be accountable for. In every and each action you do, you have to be accountable for. And whether it is Hamas, whether it is Israel, whether it is Putin, or it is Ukraine, or in African countries, and even here in the Netherlands, you have to be accountable for what you're doing, because it affects human lives. How closely do you think this, this hope that's represented here, actually reflects reality? The fact that there is no impunity. Is that really what the real world

is like? The fact that this flame is here, the fact that we're talking about hope, I think that's a positive thing. And every now and then, there is light. Every now and then. Not all the time. So that this institution is here, and this flame is here, it is important. But it's not the end station, right? I mean, the end station is not here. It's not in this building. It's not in the stone or in the fire. It's in the fire within you. fire. It's in the fire within you. It's in the fire within all these 17.8 million Dutch people. It is in, what is it, 7 billion people around the world. So it's the fire within us, I would say.

So, you know, hope doesn't come from somewhere, doesn't go somewhere. It has to be tuned from somewhere and that's from people. So this is the place which indeed shows that what I was talking about, but it is all about us. So if we fell asleep, then it's the end. And as long as we are awake, you are awake, your microphone is awake, then hope is still there. Where shall we go next? I think, you know, we are here in the heart of the city, actually a little bit on the outskirts of the heart of the city where the Peace Palace is. Not very far away from here is the former Yugoslavia tribunal. It is in the international zone, and that means that the tribunal was there.

But the European, the Eurojust organization is just next to it, and Europol. So it's a very international zone there. Let's go there, because all the flags of all the countries are also there, representing not only the international character of the city, but showing that the world is welcome here. But every now and then, we are afraid to welcome the world. Okay, let's go there.

My name is Khaled Shaaban. I'm from Syria. I'm a refugee here in The Hague in Netherlands. What I do is I'm running a social enterprise called Sibyl, which means pathways in Arabic. Sibyl mission is to provide access to employment for refugees and vulnerable people in Syria and the Middle East by providing them jobs in the tech industry from Europe and North America. I got this idea from back in Syria when the war started. I had to contribute with something to support my people. I was in Syria and I started to provide

tech services for free, for hospitals, for organization. But later, I realized that because of this military escalation here and there, we are losing lands here and there. So I thought it's better to invest in people other than investing in infrastructure. Because the regime, when the war started or the revolution started, they destroyed the infrastructure where we live. So we started getting this request that if you have a developer, if you have technicians around you, then I thought, why not start training the youth who are now unemployed and start to connect them with jobs. So in 2016, I got some fund from UK government and I started a training program for youth in Syria. But I struggled actually to connect them with jobs.

Then I thought, okay, it's better to establish a company that this company take those trainees and connect them directly with jobs with the clients. Because some clients, they don't prefer to work with individuals in Syria, but they would like to work with a European company, for example. Here in The Hague, the ecosystem,

you feel it's built to support social entrepreneurs. It's built to support international organization, international company. At the same time, there is like a social aspect you feel that you are getting more encouragement more support and this is something it's it gave me uh it's multiplied the motivation feeling inside me and feel like your work is is really recognized and appreciated while in other places it wasn't the case, frankly speaking. Above all that, the ecosystem, it's flexible and dynamic for such work.

Whenever we knock the doors on businesses or we want to do something, you find support from the municipality, you find support from so many organizations here, you find support from people to continue your work. And actually, just recently, we see that we are getting also more global recognition because just we are in The Hague. I'm getting, for example, contacts for a news agency. They want to recognize our work or they want to spread the word. All that started when i moved here to be honest uh to the hague yeah okay so we are moving now towards the international zone uh in the city of the hague the international zone which is marked by you know what is it the

flag parade as we call it so you will be finding the flags of all the countries of the world and in the international zone was indeed the Yugoslavia tribunal it's near a huge conference center and so it's a international zone not only representing of course, the international character of the city, but all kinds of major activities happening in this zone. I'm curious what it's like for someone coming here as a new resident, whether that's easier coming to an international city, quote unquote. Is it? No.

Do you get a sense of that? Unfortunately, it's not easy. Because, you know, the climate, the atmosphere in the Netherlands is not easy right now. You know, one would expect that in the international city of peace and justice, this city should be also a shelter city. That would be my guess. Yeah. And you can ask the question whether it really is a shelter city. And I would regret to say that that's not the case. So that is painful to realize that.

Of course, there is a policy, you know. According to the constitution of the Netherlands, of course, the Netherlands has also a responsibility to take people in if they are threatened but that's the problem you know I mean this political party which has won the election I mean they have won the election because they want to put you know they want to stop the whole migration. It must be hard for you to watch that happen. Yeah. Yeah, because you realize in this process, and that's why I was talking about the pain, you realize that we say that we're all equal,

but some are more equal than the others. And that goes nationally, but that goes also in the way we view issues internationally. So I think it's painful to realize that, but it motivates also. You know, I'm not somebody who is very negative in that sense. You know, let's leave it at it is and walk on or whatever. I think we have to fight. We have to fight. I mean, I don't mean literally.

I mean, you have a strength in yourself. You have a position. You have a position. I have a position. And tell me about that position. How do you fight from that position? You know, things were changing for the better in 2020. In that sense, you know, that something happened in the United States, which had a tremendous effect all over the world, but even here in the Netherlands. And that was the murder of George Floyd.

all over the world, but even here in the Netherlands. And that was the murder of George Floyd. Because of this whole Black Lives Matter movement, we have had tremendous demonstrations also here in the Netherlands. So that was one major thing happening also here in the Netherlands. And the second thing was, I don't know whether you're in Canada aware of the fact that we have had a child allowance affair, as we call it. And the state accused many people, you know, for fraud. That accusation was wrong.

And because of that accusation, many, many people, women, especially women with children, children were taken out from them. You know, they got financial problems, etc. So that was a discrimination, an institutional discrimination, which has taken place. So it all affected many people. And, you know, it accelerated thinking in people and also on the field of discrimination. So we're right now in a situation where the challenges are on the table and we have to face that. So I was telling you that I'm not a very negative person in that sense that I say, OK, it's all wrong and we cannot do anything about it. I think we can do about it.

So, you know, we have to move on. We have to fight in that sense. So we are the about it. So, you know, we have to move on. We have to fight in that sense. So we are the tough one. So it's all about us. It's all about us. And we have to act. And that is what I'm doing right now. And yes, if you conclude by saying,

Rabin, are you making miles of progress? The answer would be no. I'm making centimeters progress, but I'm making progress. So my name is Lajislam Hamran. I'm president of Eurojust. Eurojust is a European agency for criminal justice cooperation. That means that we work with the national judicial authorities dealing with cross-border cases, ensuring that these cross-border national investigations are done in a coordinated fashion.

Our role is to make sure that we work as a team, despite of having differences between jurisdictions. We ensure smooth execution of evidence gathering abroad in a fashion which is admissible for each jurisdiction. And as each jurisdiction has different requirements as far as admissible evidence is concerned way to put criminals behind bars. We deal with a wide range of criminal activities. We are competent to deal with organized crime as such, terrorism and core international crimes. The most frequent crime is related to financial proceeds. So financial and economical crimes are actually number one in our caseload. The second one is money laundering. Third one is related to drug trafficking. And last year, we supported

almost 13,000 ongoing criminal cases coming from EU and from other partnering countries. So since Eurojust has been created in 2002, we have significantly changed. First of all, crime became much more complex and much more global. This also means that more and more countries are sending their liaison prosecutors to Eurojust. Today, we have a representative from 38 countries and a wide range of contact points in over 70 countries. Eurojust is a very unique concept. You will not find any similar agency in the whole world. Eurojust is based in the Hague city for peace and justice and this has many benefits. First of all, it's a place for many European agencies and international organizations working in the same area.

So having proximity and access to all those international organizations has benefits. We can meet in person. We can coordinate a course of action, we can avoid duplication, and we can ensure that there are synergies and complementarities between us. You're listening to The Fire Within Us, a portrait of The Hague and its institutions, great and small, devoted to the principles of peace and justice. You can hear Ideas wherever you get your podcasts, and on CBC Radio 1 in Canada, across North America on US Public Radio and Sirius XM, in Australia on ABC Radio National, and around the world at cbc.ca slash ideas. You can also hear us on the CBC Listen app. I'm Nala Ayyad. Hey there, I'm David Common. If you're like me, there are things you love about living in the GTA and things that drive you absolutely crazy. Every day on This is Toronto, we connect you to what matters most about life in the GTA,

the news you got to know, and the conversations your friends will be talking about. Whether you listen on a run through your neighborhood or while sitting in the parking lot that is the 401, check out This is Toronto wherever you get your podcasts. We called this program The Fire Within Us. It's an idea borrowed from our tour guide, Rabin Baldu Singh, who talks about hope as being driven by what he calls the fire within us as individuals. The institutions, he says, are not what's important. Hope has to be tuned, as he puts it, like an instrument.

And that comes from people, from each one of us. So far on our tour of The Hague, we've heard about Robert Okello's Barefoot Law Project to make legal services available to small communities in Africa. Khaled Shaban has talked about Pathways, his project to train refugees in IT skills. And Ladislav Hamran from Eurojust described the challenges in getting nations to cooperate on criminal justice issues. Right now, we've made another stop in the car.

Let's join up again with Rabin Baldu Singh. Where are we now? Okay, let's get out of the car and then I'll tell you exactly where we are now. Thank you very much. This is beautiful. Yeah, so this is indeed the international area. You know, you see all the flags there? Yes. You know, what is it, 200 flags here symbolizing actually the world. And then on this side, yeah, was the Yugoslavia tribunal. You know what has happened in the Balkans.

You know what has happened in the former Yugoslavia. And, you know, genocide took place in the modern world as we know it. What was it, in the 90s, 95 or something? You were here. I was here. I mean, I can vividly see all those images on television, what happened there, you know, and the talks in Camp David and whatnot. What about here? Do you remember how this was when it was all active? Yeah. So, you know, when we were at the Peace Palace, we were talking about Pope. And I told you that every now and then there is light. This building represents that light because here in this building,

the world stood up and the world spoke that there is no place for impunity. So people got convicted. And people are still in prison right now who were very much responsible in the killings, in the Balkans, in genocide, and they were punished here. So, you have to see that there is hope. How far do you think what happened in this building went to entrenching the reputation of this city as the city of international... Yeah, this was huge. I mean, this was huge. You know where we're standing right now.

So you see the building right there. Then there is a fountain here in front of the building, actually. And then there is a walkway. On this walkway here, around all this, the international press was gathered here. Not only for a day, I mean for months they were here. So if you're talking about the characteristic of the International City of Peace and Justice, is what's vividly present here because the world was present here? No, I must say the eyes of the world was present here.

So yes, I mean, it was for us as citizens, as even, you know, people having responsibility, you know, to govern the city. It was, of course, very important place because we knew that we as a city had a responsibility. So on the one hand, you see impunity having no place actually because the international law spoke. That was also something about responsibility, responsibility of the world of tomorrow. The world of tomorrow which is not our world, you might say. We have lended from our children and grandchildren and it is our responsibility to leave it as connected, as safe as possible.

And, you know, in this zone, it all had happened. And it is still happening because you see there, adjacent to that building, is Europol. Now we're facing, of course, a building of the former Yugoslavia tribunal. And if you look at the right side, then you'll see a beautiful white building. It's, what is it? I think it's a 10-story building, very artistically built, actually. And that's the building of Eurojust.

So we were talking about justice, world justice at the Peace Palace. But this is the place where justice is being prevailed on the European continent. And this also symbolizes not only the international character of the city, but also symbolizes that there is no place of injustice, not only here in this country or in the world, but especially also not in Europe. So where are we going next? You know, since we're talking about international topics and since we're talking about justice, international justice,

I think after being here in the international zone, it would be nice to go to the ICC and that's the International Criminal Court. It is a place, you know, which is an important place. And I think looking at what is going on in the world right now, it's going to be a more important place in the future to come. Perfect. Let's go. Let's do it. Thank you. All right. That is so great to see that. I've never ever been to CNN.

CNN was here. I mean, everything was here. So it was a lot of activity going on in this building. But, you know, really, I mean, everything was here. So it was a lot of activity going on in this building. But, you know, really, I mean, believe it, justice prevailed, really. Because people were hunted, people were brought down here to justice, and people were convicted. And I think that wherever you are, whatever you do, you're not only accountable for, but the world will find you.

Quite a message from The Hague. Yeah. My name is Sam Muller. I am the founding director of Hill The Hague Institute for Innovation of Law. of law. By innovation of law, we're saying and recognizing that justice systems generally in most parts of the world, including Canada, including the Netherlands, including large parts of Africa, Latin America, you name it, don't really deliver what people need. And what they deliver is not always seen as very useful for people. In most countries, only about a third to at best half of justice problems that people have, and I'm talking about daily justice problems that people have, are not resolved.

And I'm talking about the ordinary justice problems in people's lives. I've been fired and I don't agree. My husband is not paying the alimony. I've been kicked out of my house by my landlord. We go out there and we measure what justice problems do people have. Where do they live? How old are they? Are they man? Are they woman? Do they live in cities? Do they live in rural areas, etc., etc.?

Do they get resolution? they live in cities? Do they live in rural areas? Etc, etc. Do they get resolution? And to what extent? And secondly, what is the impact of all this on their lives? And we see the impact is pretty serious if you don't get resolution. It has effects on health, it has effects on income, it has effects on feeling of safety, it has effects on community and feeling safe in your community or sometimes even within your family. Ultimately, I suppose, what we do is social justice, but it's the daily legal problems that people have. And our definition of a legal problem is a problem for which the law is a large part of the solution. And it basically goes to the very core of the idea that if a government or a society has given people certain rights, they ought to be able to invoke them and use them somewhere. And those rights and all the laws that we create shouldn't destroy lives, shouldn't make lives more difficult. In Nigeria, we're working with a number of governors in a number of states

on innovation labs in which they're designing community justice type solutions for land problems, for family problems, for other problems. So that's the kind of work that we do. It's quite relevant for us to be in The Hague for a number of reasons. One is The Hague is viewed as neutral. The brand The Hague almost immediately conveys that you know something about justice. The intersectionality of our work and working with other organizations in The Hague is useful because our work is by definition multidisciplinary and also when you look at you know the people we have in our teams we have economists, data people, innovation people, lawyers and indeed when we work on

land problems you know you need experts on land problems and you you would find them here in the hague and so from that perspective it's it's it's great to be in the hague and this ecosystem here has also created yeah something very very stupid and simple okay now we've arrived now at um yeah what is it a very, I must say. And that's the place of the International Criminal Court, the ICC. Let's go out and then I'll tell you more. Thank you very much.

Okay, mind your... Because it's a cycle lane, so... It's such an imposing building. It feels like a court, a criminal court. So, if you look at this building it is very transparent you might say on the one hand while it is a fortress you cannot go i mean just like that inside but if you look at what is it one two three four five

six buildings actually on one compound but it is is all glass. It is all glass. And the interesting thing is now it's a little bit gray. So then you see the grayness. But if it's the sun is shining, then you'll see other colors, etc. But in the middle of it, you see, I think, the main entrance building. And what do you see there? You see that, you know, there is... The nature is into the building, so they have put plants, you know, as... On the facade. On the facade, as a decoration. So from the outside, it is a beautiful building.

It's an iconic building. But it is a place where if you do something wrong in the world, then you have to be accountable for here on this place so so there can be a tribunal as we've seen that uh with the yugoslavia tribunal of course and there's also a lebanon tribunal here in the city but of course this is a permanent position people are talking about uh what is it criminal war activities of russia for example so that means that you know war activities of Russia for example so that means that you know Putin can be brought here you know to be accountable for so this is the place where yeah history is being made and history can be made you know if we look at what is currently happening in in Ukraine and in Russia

etc. It's a recent addition to the landscape of the Hague the justice landscape of the Hague. I wonder when you look you kind of answered that just now but when you look forward do you think this is fit for purpose? Do you think the Hague has all that it needs to deliver the kind of justice that you're talking about? Absolutely absolutely. Even in this world that we live in now? You know, the positive thing is that this can only be made because the world has embraced it. Not the whole world. Not the whole world. Obviously, there are some countries. Well, there are some countries which do not recognize it.

But still, the vast majority of the countries in the world recognizes this. So it's not only an iconic place, it's an important place. And I think that it has proved its existence because, you know, I mean, we're talking about international law. We are talking about international justice. And also here, international justice has every now and then prevailed. So here international justice has every now and then prevailed. I'm Fadil Abdalam, the spokesperson of the International Criminal Court. I think that part of the interest that people have in the ICC is in its name,

it's International Criminal Court, and it's not tied to a specific country or specific region. It's not Yugoslavia, it's not Rwanda, it's not Lebanon, it's not Kosovo. It's the international criminal court to a certain extent you can see that when the icc has been created in 2002 it benefited from a lot of the lessons learned from the experience of the icty because it was before it was already running and functioning and having cases there was practical knowledge but there was also legal regulations that were created to complement the basic regulations of the ICTY. So when the ICC started, it could already start with certain lessons learned, what we

can take, what was positive, what needs improvement or need to be changed, etc. And it also grew with talents that were already practicing in the ICTY at a certain time. So the fact that all these institutions are in The Hague had to a certain degree allowed this possibility of exchanging lessons, of sometimes working on a provisional basis or on a temporary basis from one institution to another, and then returning back with fresh ideas, with more experience.

And it allows, independently of that, it allows a continuous dialogue as well because it's same circles at the end, whether it is in round tables, whether it is in conferences, whether it's informal discussions about how do you do, how do you approach these things, etc.

So it's also beneficial i think for all these institutions to have this proximity because in addition to being kind of the administrative capital of the netherlands with the parliament with the king's palace and so on and the headquarters of a lot of big companies the hague has been central for the development of international laws since the beginning of the 20th century. There was conventions of the Hague that were signed here, hoping to end the wars. It was just before the First World War. And after that, there was the building of the Peace Palace that hosted the ancestor of the International Court of Justice. So there was a continuum of creation of conferences, of conventions, of

treaties, and of institutions like the ICJ in relation to the international law. So later on in the 90s as well, the Hague was chosen to be the headquarter for the International Criminal Tribunal for ex-Yugoslavia. So there was an additional element that revived this vibe of focusing on international law. And I think it's part of the Netherlands' history of openness, tolerance, and also support for international law and for international institutions, that they were willing to put a lot of efforts in order to host institutions like the ICTY and the ICC. There is no institution that can summarize in itself the whole international law.

So we are all parts of a puzzle that has to be put together, and each has a specific role. So we all have our judicial capacities, and we have our framework, and we have to respect it. But it is possible to play a role, and for others as well to play their role. And all together, we have to be working towards this hope of a more just world. What are the individual responsibilities that we all have

to getting justice for those who want it? No, the individual responsibility is always there, all along. You cannot, it's not negotiable. It's always there.

We're just passing by. We don't have the eternal life. We're not here to stay. We are here to build something on which our children and our guilt children can be proud of and can stand on our shoulders and say, you know, we are here because they were there. Imagine, the Hague was hit, you know,

in the second world war imagine that there was nobody to fight for the freedom 75 years, 80 years back. Would I be standing here talking to you as a black person?

Would I be here standing you know in front of an iconic building like the International Criminal Court, talking to you about impunity and about international justice and the rule of law? Neither of us would be here. So, we are obliged to do it. I mean, it is our individual responsibility to do it. So yes, institutions are important, whether it's here or in New York or in Ottawa or in Toronto or wherever,

it is important. But we also are accountable for it. Every day we have to look, face the mirror and say, are we happy? Of course, on a micro level or meso level. Of course, we're happy if we have children, a wife or a husband or whatever, a partner. But are we happy as world citizens? I mean, I think that's a key issue.

So talking about justice and especially international justice, it's not something very isolated only in your own sphere. You have to face international justice as a greater good. Well, let me put it more dramatically. It's about existence, really. And I do mean it. This is not acting, what I'm doing right now. International justice is existence. And also existence of values, norms and values.

Existence of culture, which is very important. I don't know whether you remember or not, but I mean, once the story goes that once Churchill was asked, why are we fighting for? And he said, if there is no culture, what's the use of fighting for? So it is important because culture brings civilization. But it's also about a safe space for all of us, whether we are a woman or a man or a transgender or an LHBT person, whether we are a child, whether we are black, whether

we are whatever. We have to have a safe place, safe space in this world. And safe spaces does not come because it's decided in the universe. We have to build that safe spaces. We, 7 billion people. So it's all our responsibility to do it, but institutions are important because they represent us. We choose them to be there and they are for us and they are for our safety.

And if they lack doing things, then we have to speak out. But if something is happening somewhere in the world as far as impunity, for example, is concerned, then we have to raise our voice or actually the system has to raise its voice. The institutions has to raise our voice, or actually the system has to raise its voice, the institutions have to raise their voice to bring that down, to bring them to accountability.

So I don't know whether war is always the answer. The table, a seat at the table, is perhaps the best place to find answers and to find solutions. And that is what, standing here in the international city of peace and justice, I'm just a small dot, perhaps of no importance. I tend to make a difference, you know, on a very small level. But as a dot, I would say, let's make that difference, taking a seat at the table and to talk. Talking, talking, talking. Perhaps that is a better answer than bullets, bullets, bullets.

Rabin, thank you so much. It was an honor. Thank you. On Ideas, you've been listening to The Fire Within Us, an audio portrait of The Hague in the Netherlands that calls itself the city of peace and justice. Our guide in this program was Rabin Balduse, Dutch National Coordinator against Discrimination and Racism. Also heard in the program, Robert O'Kello, Khaled Shaban,

Ladislav Hamran, Sam Muller, and Fadi El Abdallah. Our thanks to all of them. Special thanks to Jill Wilkinson from The Hague Humanities Hub, and to Graziella Guarguaglini, International Media Coordinator for The Hague. This program was produced by Philip Coulter and me, Nala Ayed. Technical production, Danielle Duval. Our web producer is Lisa Ayuso. Acting senior producer, Lisa Godfrey.

Greg Kelly is the executive producer of Ideas. And I'm Nala Ayed. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.